Author Topic: Mythological creatures: chimera, unicorns, and professional Beta Readers?  (Read 2878 times)

Evelyn Alexie

Question: does anyone know of a beta reader who isn't an editor in disguise? I'm beginning to think they don't exist.

I thought using a professional beta reader would be a good way to avoid the pitfalls of a)beta readers who don't get around to reading or b)readers who don't want to hurt my feelings.

But every professional beta reader I've tried wants to edit the story instead. They seem to think that this is a bonus, something I should be glad for. Even when I explain at the start that I'm going to send this to an editor, but I want a reader to look at it first.

I'm assuming the following facts:
  • When the average person reads a novel, they read it emotionally. They want to enter into the character's viewpoint and find out what happens next.
  • When an editor or writer reads a novel, they read it analytically, looking for flaws or inconsistencies.

These are separate mindsets. Thus, if I ask for a beta read and get a report on how to revise the story structure and whether or not there should be semicolons, my first thought is that they were in analysis mode, not reading mode. I do not believe a person can be in both mindsets at the same time.

Have you ever had a professional beta reader who simply told you what they did or didn't like about the story?
A reader who said "I liked the twist about the custard pie but the hero jumping out of the steak-and-kidney pie didn't make sense to me and I was confused when the butler shot the space alien with the ray gun when the dog had already buried it in the yard next to the vampire"?


Note: I'm using the non-biological definition of chimera  as "A vain, foolish, or incongruous fancy, or creature of the imagination."
 

TimothyEllis

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I use 1 beta reader now, who is a fan, who used to report the most goofs to me until she offered to beta read and make it official.

Works well for both of us. She gets advanced reading, and I get a cleaner release.

But you're right about the modes. Now she does a reading pass first as soon as the book is out of editing, and then, having understood the whole story, she does a proofing pass. This works a lot better than just proofing, as before I was getting too many 'dont understand this' comments, which were largely answered later.

While she doesn't actually edit, she does sometimes point out places where some editing is needed. Usually where a paragraph would be easier to understand if reworded. Occasionally where my explanation is weak, or in the wrong place.

She understands that I will ignore anything which I consider is character voice or deliberate writing, which might have bothered her while in proofing mode, and I do ignore quite a lot of what she comes back with.

Getting editing suggestions is part of the process I think, but it's up to you to use what you feel is appropriate, and ignore the rest. And your beta reader has to accept that.
Genres: Space Opera/Fantasy/Cyberpunk, with elements of LitRPG and GameLit, with a touch of the Supernatural. Also Spiritual and Games.



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LilyBLily

One reason I seek out new beta readers is so they can have the shock of the new when they read my stories. In most cases, I'm sending out a story that I think probably has some rough edges. I want the readers to respond naively and tell me what those are--and just as important, I want to know what story events, no matter how improbable, they take in stride.

If you are receiving repeated reports on story structure and grammar/mechanics, that probably means you have some issues with them, but it could be that you need to spell out to the betas in advance that they should ignore those elements and simply concentrate on whether they enjoyed reading your story. I've had this problem with proofreaders who want to edit, and with copyeditors who want to be developmental editors. It's important to set expectations. I think it's just as important to get several beta reads, not just one, unless you are lucky enough to have a special relationship with a beta reader who likes your style and has the ability to point out unwelcome departures from your strengths.

I recently discovered that Fiverr has over 800 people listed who do beta reads. They have vastly different pricing and some appear to offer more than just a beta read. I spent a couple of hours reading their summaries of what genres they like and then contacted a couple in my price range with my requirements for the read. So far, so good.

And then there's the ego involved. We don't like getting criticism even though that is implicit in soliciting a beta read.

Edited to add: I just received a third beta report on my newest novel, and that makes two votes for and only one against the men I've put in it. (One beta reader hated them all.) Multiple reactions help me assign due weight to any negative comments that might otherwise send me scrambling to make big revisions.   
« Last Edit: June 28, 2020, 11:01:11 PM by LilyBLily »
 
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Evelyn Alexie

Absolutely, if you get multiple comments on the same issue(s) then you need to pay attention to it. I haven't experienced that.

I think what made me so irked this last time was that I specified that I was looking for a reader's opinion and that I was going to send it to an editor afterward. All I got back was an edit. If you're being paid for a service, it behooves you to perform that service.

Okay, enough venting. At least I got to use the word "behooves" in a sentence. That's a plus.

And thanks for the tip about Fiverr! I'll check that out :)
« Last Edit: June 29, 2020, 04:23:48 AM by Evelyn Alexie »
 

Vijaya

I suspect that most beta readers have internal editors that are hard to turn off. Mine tends to be on all the time but I stick to what the author of the work needs. There's no point in doing line edits when the work itself needs proper development. I find that when the story flows, my internal editor is silent. That's what I love about good stories. The pages disappear.


Author of over 100 books and magazine pieces, primarily for children
Vijaya Bodach | Personal Blog | Bodach Books
 
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alhawke

I've never hired a beta reader and, for me, the more reader-like my beta readers are, the better. I use a beta reader and then hire an honest editor. For beta reads, I choose friends, fans, to read the book and let me know their opinion. I agree that you'll get enough comments over technique by a professional editor.

IMO, if a beta reader doesn't finish your book, then that tells you something about your book (I once rewrote an entire novel because of this). If they read the book and aren't critical enough, then I would just not use that reader anymore.
 
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idontknowyet

So far i've found a couple of both.

I do think there is a value to be had from beta readers and editors pretending to be beta reader. The key is asking them to put their gut responses in. When they read the first pass give thoughts and feelings only. Ask for simple terms. Love hate bored stupid doesn't make sense laughed put the book down read all night.

These give feelings not evaluations. Then you look to see if the emotions match what you wanted to evoke from the reader. When they don't search for the root cause of the response. Sometimes I've found its that the reader doesn't normally read my genre. Then another time i found it was a minor flaw that became a larger emotional issue in my story.

Any one that takes the time to read your book and give insightful feedback can be a useful tool in the creative process.
 
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Vijaya

I do think there is a value to be had from beta readers and editors pretending to be beta reader. The key is asking them to put their gut responses in.

I write for kids and one of the best ways to get this kind of feedback is to ask them to rate using the ABC method--A for awesome, B for boring, C for confusing. It's quick and easy.


Author of over 100 books and magazine pieces, primarily for children
Vijaya Bodach | Personal Blog | Bodach Books
 
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Crystal

I don't agree with your premise.

Some readers come from an analytical lens, some from an emotional lens. This depends on your genre, but every genre will have a mix, and many readers will be hybrids.

I am a very logical person. If I find errors in logic in a book, I find it distracting. But I don't look for errors in plot, logic, continuity, etc. I just notice them if they distract me. I want to be pulled into the emotion of a book. I just can't if I'm distracted by errors.

That's a universal experience. People are distracted by problems. Even the world's most emotional reader will be distracted if they notice typos. Or if they notice you got details of their hometown wrong. Etc.

If you want random reader reactions, find random readers.

Paid betas are going to give you a more logical take on the problems in your book, emotional or otherwise. That is their job. They need to communicate the problems in a way that helps you. If the way they're doing it isn't helping you... tell them exactly what will.

But don't draw a hard line between logical and emotional readers. That line doesn't exist.
 
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Simon Haynes

To get reader opinions I send each new release, chapter by chapter, to over 100 people on my alpha reading list. These folk are a subset of the much larger mailing list, initially put together by asking people to read for me, and later culled to those who've ever responded with suggestions or comments.

I explain that I just want to hear about typos, plot holes and anything they're confused about. This avoids the problem of receiving exhaustive emails detailing exactly where I can put my punctuation.

I know what it's like to unintentionally rewrite someone else's novel during editing, because I was guilty of it once when I tried to edit a (truly awfully bad) first chapter for a family member many years ago. Once you get started, it's like sawing little bits off dining-table legs to get the thing level, only to end up with a coffee table.

 
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Evelyn Alexie

I don't agree with your premise.

Some readers come from an analytical lens, some from an emotional lens. This depends on your genre, but every genre will have a mix, and many readers will be hybrids.

[respectful snippage]

But don't draw a hard line between logical and emotional readers. That line doesn't exist.

It would be a boring world if we all agreed on everything  :cheers

I think everyone is a mixture of logic and emotion, and it's not always easy to separate one from the other. My most recent (unsuccessful) copyedit had the editor leaving long comments (occasionally in ALL CAPS) how stupid my characters were. Most editors, however, don't  usually inject that much emotion into their edits. (In my experience. YMMV.)

For a beta reader, however, I don't expect them to go LOOKING for errors. Of course if you find one, it can throw you out of the story. But a reader goes looking for a good story and an editor goes looking for things that are incorrect.

My last paid beta reader started her first comment with, "You are starting the story in the wrong place. You need to start in medias res..."
To me, that ain't a beta read.

 

Evelyn Alexie

I explain that I just want to hear about typos, plot holes and anything they're confused about. This avoids the problem of receiving exhaustive emails detailing exactly where I can put my punctuation.

I don't know how you do it! I ALWAYS start out with an explanation that I'm looking for plausibility, pacing, and plot holes. I usually get back comments about "show not tell" and "should this scene be in the other character's POV?"

Got to stop hanging out with other writers ;)

Quote
I know what it's like to unintentionally rewrite someone else's novel during editing, because I was guilty of it once when I tried to edit a (truly awfully bad) first chapter for a family member many years ago. Once you get started, it's like sawing little bits off dining-table legs to get the thing level, only to end up with a coffee table.

This. :HB
 

idontknowyet

I don't agree with your premise.

Some readers come from an analytical lens, some from an emotional lens. This depends on your genre, but every genre will have a mix, and many readers will be hybrids.

[respectful snippage]

But don't draw a hard line between logical and emotional readers. That line doesn't exist.

It would be a boring world if we all agreed on everything  :cheers

I think everyone is a mixture of logic and emotion, and it's not always easy to separate one from the other. My most recent (unsuccessful) copyedit had the editor leaving long comments (occasionally in ALL CAPS) how stupid my characters were. Most editors, however, don't  usually inject that much emotion into their edits. (In my experience. YMMV.)

For a beta reader, however, I don't expect them to go LOOKING for errors. Of course if you find one, it can throw you out of the story. But a reader goes looking for a good story and an editor goes looking for things that are incorrect.

My last paid beta reader started her first comment with, "You are starting the story in the wrong place. You need to start in medias res..."
To me, that ain't a beta read.
I had a beta reader tell me I needed to learn how to write and plan a story. That my story was terrible and she would never read another one of my books. Those were the positive points.

The odd thing was all through my draft she left comments loving my story. That was until she hit a turning point in my book. She then though the character was vapid and unredeemable.

Strong emotional feedback from an editor/beta anyone means they got emotionally invested in your book then you didn't meet their expectations. I certainly didn't.
What I did after that was go back and figure out what triggered the negative response. What expectations did I build that I didn't meet?

Since fixing that issue, I haven't gotten a single negative response. (other than my grammar stinks.. which is expected and what I hired an editor for)

I get that you paid for a copy editor and that wasn't what was provided, but as long as they provided the copy edit and their feedback for no additional charge I would try to use the added information to enhance your book.

That said not all feedback is helpful. I had two beta readers read another one of my books. One where a woman was physically abused. I don't write graphic violence against women in my book. We see enough of it in real life. I don't need to put those pictures in anyone else's heads.
Both readers said emphatically I needed to add the graphic violence. That it would make the story stronger. To me as an author it's not an option, and that is feedback I said thank you for providing and totally ignored.

As authors I think its a really important skill to learn how to evaluate feedback and determine what is and isn't helpful. We will get so much of it that we need to find a good way of turning the negatives into strengths not weakness.
 
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idontknowyet


I know what it's like to unintentionally rewrite someone else's novel during editing, because I was guilty of it once when I tried to edit a (truly awfully bad) first chapter for a family member many years ago. Once you get started, it's like sawing little bits off dining-table legs to get the thing level, only to end up with a coffee table.

I really think this is a great point especially for editors. There job isn't to fix our books ever!!!! There job is to point out the problems and let our creativity fix it. When someone else fixes your book for you they are really rewriting it. With the exception of grammar and even that can be done on purpose.
I write some characters with different speech patterns on purpose and a beta reader/wanna be editor went through and fixed what wasn't broken.
 
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Evelyn Alexie

After all my kvetching and caviling and general crankiness on the topic of professional beta readers, I feel it only fair to mention that I did eventually find a beta reader service that I loved. Didn't sugarcoat the drawbacks but didn't try to edit either--just a reader's opinion on what worked for them and what didn't.

I don't see a section for recommendations? I saw a section for editors to post their services, but this beta reader isn't there. Would it be acceptable to post a "two thumbs up" for someone who isn't listed? :tup3b :tup3b
 
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Vijaya

I don't see a section for recommendations? I saw a section for editors to post their services, but this beta reader isn't there. Would it be acceptable to post a "two thumbs up" for someone who isn't listed? :tup3b :tup3b

Oooh, I like the idea of a place for writers' recommendations of services.


Author of over 100 books and magazine pieces, primarily for children
Vijaya Bodach | Personal Blog | Bodach Books
 
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idontknowyet

I don't see a section for recommendations? I saw a section for editors to post their services, but this beta reader isn't there. Would it be acceptable to post a "two thumbs up" for someone who isn't listed? :tup3b :tup3b

Oooh, I like the idea of a place for writers' recommendations of services.

That is a great idea we soo need that...  :Tup2:  :goodpost: :tup3b
 

TimothyEllis

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