KKR on Hype and the Big Fish--new writers read this!!! (yes, that's hype)

[David VanDyke]

Absolutely great, spot-on post from KKR.

https://kriswrites.com/2018/12/12/business-musings-sales-people-hype-machines-big-fish-and-the-music-man/

I've seen this so often over the years.

[DrewMcGunn]

Thanks for posting this. It's good to have this in mind when newbs like me get those "Look at my shiny..." emails.

[Ghost5]

Such a great post. And so, so true. Thanks for sharing it here.

[LilyBLily]

I've met quite a few smarter-than-you marketers over the years whose novels simply are not memorable. Their ability to sell them to publishers was. I'd listen to their methods of getting attention from editors and agents and admire their moxie. But as KKR says, they tend to move on, because writing is not really their thing. And I couldn't replicate their methods, because marketing myself as the product is not really mine. 

I don't know if the post was a slam against a specific writing/publishing guru around today. It could be taken as a slam, and there are many gurus to choose as the intended target. One thing: Blogs actually are becoming passe, so I wouldn't mark anyone down for discontinuing one. 

[Post-Crisis D]

Another problem I don't think was mentioned are the sites that protect those "Big Fish."  I got in trouble on a site once (not that other place) for questioning one of those Big Fish.  Said Big Fish was offering a book or course or something on how to make big bucks selling on Kindle.  Said Big Fish's own book wasn't even available on Amazon; it was only available in paperback from a traditional publisher.  I got modded for asking questions about how said Big Fish could be promising Kindle riches yet didn't have any work of their own available for it. 

One thing: Blogs actually are becoming passe, so I wouldn't mark anyone down for discontinuing one. 

I blame Facebook.  There used to be a vibrant blogging community.  Maybe there still is a smaller one I don't see, but it certainly isn't what it was.  I remember bloggers getting all excited about Facebook and how you gotta be on there and all that (that's when I initially joined).  Then the thing to do was to have your blog posts published on Facebook to reach more people and all that.

I did that and saw right through it, eventually ceasing the practice and deleting all my blog posts from Facebook.  All it did was split the conversation.  Some people would comment on Facebook and others directly on your blog.  It was killing discussions and not bringing traffic to blogs.

But others kept doing it.  Now, a lot of those blogs are gone.  Hard to make ad revenue if all the traffic is going to Facebook.  Now Facebook gets the money and those former bloggers basically give their content away for free.

Of course, not all those bloggers were in it for the money.  Some did it for the fun of it.  I think Facebook has taken the fun away too.

Honestly, in my opinion, it will be a huge social benefit when Facebook goes the way of MySpace.

[Vijaya]

I needed to read that. Thank you! This summer I signed up for a few webinars and at the end, there's a big push to enroll...I didn't. I notice that they are all selling how-to books instead of fiction, not both. I trust the advice of teachers who practice what they preach

[guest1038]

I agree with her, especially on the advice about avoiding those pushing 'systems'. But, wasn't that a large part of what comprised the 20books conference? 

[TimothyEllis]

I agree with her, especially on the advice about avoiding those pushing 'systems'. But, wasn't that a large part of what comprised the 20books conference? 

20books is not a system. It's a gathering of authors who give advice based on what worked for them.

It's also zero-profit. If Craig Martelle actually makes a profit, he gives refunds.

There is also no real sell. Lots of advice, but nothing for sale.

People go there to find out what worked for others, to network with other authors, and pick everyone else's brains. And even the speakers are there for the same reason, looking to help and be helped, and are available to have their brains picked.

The only system involved in 20books is Michael Anderle, and he's one in a million, something to work towards, but also something very few people will actually be able to emulate. While what he did is espoused, very few will have his skill set for putting it together. The rest take out of it what they are able to do at the time. He's held up as the possible, not the do this if you want to succeed.

The conference and the Facebook group are both run by Craig Martelle, who is a 6 figure author, but wants to be a 7, and is working towards that. But he makes zero income out of giving advise to other people.

[notthatamanda]

I needed to read that. Thank you! This summer I signed up for a few webinars and at the end, there's a big push to enroll...I didn't. I notice that they are all selling how-to books instead of fiction, not both. I trust the advice of teachers who practice what they preach

Reading the blog post brought back memories of an old Saturday Night Live skit called "How to get people to send you $5 for a book."

The thing with the 5 year shelf life of the gurus is that 5 years is enough time to make a lot of money, and rip off/hurt a lot of people.  And they don't stop, they just move on to the next scam.  It seems like an addiction for some of them, not that I'm excusing it.   Not sure where I'm going with this, it's really early here.

[twicebitten]

I doubt it's 20booksto50K she's taking a stab at here--she and her husband were at their conference promoting their own courses and other income streams. Surely they wouldn't insult someone who let them have the platform.

Also, she's wrong in this: you CAN make really good guesses about someone's income from public data if you know all the pen names. For instance, if their last three books have two reviews each at Goodreads, those books are not making mystery millions somewhere else. Two reviews means no one is reading them and no one is interested in reading them. If you're a new writer or launching a pen name, that's of course no bad reflection on your skill or even your marketing knowledge. It's simply difficult to get the ball rolling these days.

Otherwise, yes, sure, there are a lot of scammers and a lot of people who can't sell their novels making money by selling hope to other writers. I appreciate folks like David Van Dyke who offer the advice up for free.

[littleauthor]

I find that poverty inoculates me against hype.

[David VanDyke]

I find that poverty inoculates me against hype.

Many people of modest means will manage to dig up money if they get stars in their eyes about making more. Think lotteries, which are mostly patronized by people of modest means.

If it seems too good to be true, it probably is.

If someone's trying to sell you "how to make a bunch of money doing X..." always ask yourself, why isn't that person doing X instead of trying to sell me a system?

[Astrid Torquay]

My favorites are the ones who include a screenshot of an Excel chart with all their earnings, as "evidence" that they make lots of money.

I, too, can make an Excel chart showing that I make lots of money.

[Kyra Halland]

I find that poverty inoculates me against hype.

Cheapness, in my case.

[solo]

I did come across a book ad advertising the use of hypnotism (!) to increase writing productivity. It was an OMG moment.

[guest1038]

I agree with her, especially on the advice about avoiding those pushing 'systems'. But, wasn't that a large part of what comprised the 20books conference? 

20books is not a system. It's a gathering of authors who give advice based on what worked for them.

It's also zero-profit. If Craig Martelle actually makes a profit, he gives refunds.

There is also no real sell. Lots of advice, but nothing for sale.

People go there to find out what worked for others, to network with other authors, and pick everyone else's brains. And even the speakers are there for the same reason, looking to help and be helped, and are available to have their brains picked.

The only system involved in 20books is Michael Anderle, and he's one in a million, something to work towards, but also something very few people will actually be able to emulate. While what he did is espoused, very few will have his skill set for putting it together. The rest take out of it what they are able to do at the time. He's held up as the possible, not the do this if you want to succeed.

The conference and the Facebook group are both run by Craig Martelle, who is a 6 figure author, but wants to be a 7, and is working towards that. But he makes zero income out of giving advise to other people.

It's the talk (one of the talks?) Anderle gave at that conference that I'm referring to. He's espousing and enacting the motherlode of systems. He's talking that he and his team of 40 or so writers will be releasing 400 books into the store next year on top of the dozens already released in some kind of connected story universe. This is a team capable of leveraging a great amount of power through combined lists and resources. It's this kind of system, or factory, that I see as a major problem in self-publishing, but I guess KKR does not.

[TimothyEllis]

It's the talk (one of the talks?) Anderle gave at that conference that I'm referring to. He's espousing and enacting the motherlode of systems. He's talking that he and his team of 40 or so writers will be releasing 400 books into the store next year on top of the dozens already released in some kind of connected story universe. This is a team capable of leveraging a great amount of power through combined lists and resources. It's this kind of system, or factory, that I see as a major problem in self-publishing, but I guess KKR does not.

I can see where this might be daunting, but I see it 2 ways:

1. Anderle is acting as a publisher now, but with the difference he has a universe he built himself, and he's using other authors to populate it using a lot of the ideas he hasn't time to write himself. I wish I could do this. Too many ideas, not enough writing time.

2. All these authors would be writing pretty much the same books anyway.

Anderle could have gone the publisher route, and taken on all these authors as a publisher, in which case the same power to list would be happening. Instead, he's utilized them within his universe.

Even without the combined power of the lists, Anderle has been sitting at the top 5 of the author lists for sci-fi and fantasy for a long time now. And even without him, most of those books would be doing really well on their own.

And the big difference between him and others is the books he puts out are quality.

I also made the comment before, and I'll repeat it - Anderle can recommend this system as much as he wants, but there will be very very few people who can put what he built together. It needs a specific skill set, and he's the only one I've seen with it so far.

So while 20books advocates his system, I dont see it happening very much. And yes, I've attempted to build it myself, and failed. I dont have his skill set. I'm still working towards building something though. The books I'm working on now are the final parts to my core universe. After that, branching out with co-authors will be easier to do.

I dont see Anderle as a threat. He's helping a lot of people get started, by opening up his universe, and demanding high standards and work ethic. And in spite of the number of books coming out, none of them stop my books from peaking where they should be.

I have a problem with the mills turning out crap. But Anderle isn't one of them.

[David VanDyke]

Eric Flynt and Baen did this kind of thing with the Ring of Fire (1632) universe...also, the Aldenata (SP?) universe also from Baen...it will probably work, but who knows? There might be a limit to this kind of thing...though I suppose the whole Marvel or DV universes are kinda the same idea...

[guest1038]

It's the talk (one of the talks?) Anderle gave at that conference that I'm referring to. He's espousing and enacting the motherlode of systems. He's talking that he and his team of 40 or so writers will be releasing 400 books into the store next year on top of the dozens already released in some kind of connected story universe. This is a team capable of leveraging a great amount of power through combined lists and resources. It's this kind of system, or factory, that I see as a major problem in self-publishing, but I guess KKR does not.

I can see where this might be daunting, but I see it 2 ways:

1. Anderle is acting as a publisher now, but with the difference he has a universe he built himself, and he's using other authors to populate it using a lot of the ideas he hasn't time to write himself. I wish I could do this. Too many ideas, not enough writing time.

2. All these authors would be writing pretty much the same books anyway.

Anderle could have gone the publisher route, and taken on all these authors as a publisher, in which case the same power to list would be happening. Instead, he's utilized them within his universe.

Even without the combined power of the lists, Anderle has been sitting at the top 5 of the author lists for sci-fi and fantasy for a long time now. And even without him, most of those books would be doing really well on their own.

And the big difference between him and others is the books he puts out are quality.

I also made the comment before, and I'll repeat it - Anderle can recommend this system as much as he wants, but there will be very very few people who can put what he built together. It needs a specific skill set, and he's the only one I've seen with it so far.

So while 20books advocates his system, I dont see it happening very much. And yes, I've attempted to build it myself, and failed. I dont have his skill set. I'm still working towards building something though. The books I'm working on now are the final parts to my core universe. After that, branching out with co-authors will be easier to do.

I dont see Anderle as a threat. He's helping a lot of people get started, by opening up his universe, and demanding high standards and work ethic. And in spite of the number of books coming out, none of them stop my books from peaking where they should be.

I have a problem with the mills turning out crap. But Anderle isn't one of them.

I do appreciate your optimism, Timothy, but I can't help but feel it's this type of approach that Anderle is taking that's going to lead self-publishing right back into the jaws of gatekeeper-dom.

[TimothyEllis]

I do appreciate your optimism, Timothy, but I can't help but feel it's this type of approach that Anderle is taking that's going to lead self-publishing right back into the jaws of gatekeeper-dom.

Do you mean trad pub?

Maybe that's what Anderle is doing? Aiming to beat the big 5 at their own game? I guess only time will ell if he succeeds, and if like Hay House, he becomes one of the big 6. Hay House was created to get around the restrictions of the establishment publishers, Now it is the establishment. Maybe Anderle will become one of them. Maybe he wont.

But for now, all I see is potentially 400 books with his name as one of them on them, which represents 400 books his people would have written anyway.

Maybe there is a threat in what he's doing, but I would have thought we'd have seen it already. Not potential threat, actual threat. Ans given what he writes, I'd be one of the first to feel any downside to what he's doing.

[guest1038]

I wouldn't necessarily call it trad pub, but a model somewhat similar to that.

It starts with Anderle's company publishing 400 novels next year under a few pen names, and I don't doubt for a second he only scales up from there, and up and up and up. What began as 400 novels in 2019 expands to 800 novels in 2020 and 1200 novels or more the following year. He's scaling his business up for a reason and why would you stop when the whole goal is maximize profit?

There's nothing wrong with growing a business, don't get me wrong, but this is taking dozens of what otherwise would be individual businesses and consolidating them into a large content mill that effectively grabs more and more market share and squeezes out individuals as the cost for visibility is shot through the roof.

Then the only way to compete will be by others doing the same thing - because the only way you'll be able to get anywhere is to similarly combine lists and pool resources - and then you have an arms race that no individual author, outside of a few outliers, could ever hope to run with. Which basically leads to a landscape where the only way to get your stories in front of people is if you wind up becoming an employee of one of these multitudes of content mills that will have taken over the industry.

Again, this is just the beginning. When Anderle's pen names essentially own the bestseller lists, and they will by sheer volume alone, other business minded people will see the writing on the wall and they'll start doing the same thing. It only goes on from there. As I've said, to me, indie publishing should never have been about creating a 'system' and scaling up. Then writing and authorship becomes about massive widget factories. I just don't see it as a good thing.

[TimothyEllis]

Just as a matter of interest, how many eBooks do the big 5 each put out a year now?

And how are they not a bigger threat than Anderle is?

Just curious.

[guest1038]

Just as a matter of interest, how many eBooks do the big 5 each put out a year now?

And how are they not a bigger threat than Anderle is?

Just curious.

Right, but in my opinion that's missing the point. Sure, the trad model can be perceived as a threat, and it's definitely not something that interests me and that's partly why I have a problem with indie pub moving in that kind of direction.

To me, the indie 'revolution' (for lack of a better word) around 2009/2010 was not something I'd celebrated because eventually I was hoping to become something similar to a traditional publishing house myself. No. I celebrated this new revolution because it meant breaking free of that trad model and it meant having all of these individual writers capable of circumventing that model and putting out their own work of their volition and their own individual sweat equity. It meant creative craftspeople of all kinds were now free to hit the market place on their own terms.

Anderle, like most indies, might have started off doing that, but that's not what he's espousing now and to me what he's moving forward with is a worrying development. What he's promoting is not indie publishing, it's content milling. And, as the profits will inevitably roll in, it's a trend that's only going to grow until it dominates.

I didn't look at the advent of KDP and think how great it would be if I could expand and expand outward and upward from just myself writing and publishing my own stories to where I'm eventually hiring hundreds of employees and bringing on a staff of writers and pumping out content like one of the big 5. I realize I might be alone in this, but in my opinion, that's not what being indie is about.

I like the idea of thousands of individual authors having the capability to earn a living from their books, free and clear of the trad model in as close to a true meritocracy as we can achieve. And, for now that's still a reality and it's a beautiful thing. But as this team concept, and consolidation of individual author businesses into conglomerates of dozens of these authors writing under a brand name (pen name), continues to gain momentum that "reality" is going to become less so for individual authors going forward.

Then, yes, you're going to wind up in an environment where the Anderles and their ilk will dominate, just like the traditional publishers did before 2009. And where will our revolution be then?

[TimothyEllis]

Where do you get "staff" from in relation to Anderle? All his books involve contracted co-authors, not staff. Every book or series has its own contracts involved. There is no staff in his model.

[guest1038]

Where do you get "staff" from in relation to Anderle? All his books involve contracted co-authors, not staff. Every book or series has its own contracts involved. There is no staff in his model.

Let's not get bogged down in semantics. Writers in Hollywood have agents and managers, and they work under negotiated contracts, but when hired by a television show they are joining a staff of writers. Sure, they work under individually negotiated contracts, but they are on staff with the production company for whom they create. Same thing here, and it's this use of the word 'staff' I was alluding to.

In the 20books conference video, Anderle lays out that he has a team of 38 writers that are creating content under a few branded pen names and their output will be the 400 titles they release in 2019. To my mind that's a production company, or in the case of "self-publishing" a content mill with a staff of writers.

And, should we really believe this team of 38 writers and 400 books are where this model stops? We're talking about chasing profit here to the greatest extent. Of course, it's inevitable if Anderle wants to be like James Patterson, i.e. a billionaire or close to it, the number of contracted writers and the number of titles pumped out is only going to increase...perhaps exponentially. This is a worrying trend, or at least should be worrying for any individual indie trying to compete for visibility in the store moving forward.

[TimothyEllis]

In the 20books conference video, Anderle lays out that he has a team of 38 writers that are creating content under a few branded pen names and their output will be the 400 titles they release in 2019. To my mind that's a production company, or in the case of "self-publishing" a content mill with a staff of writers.

Ok, if they are a few pen names, and not in fact co-authors, then that is worrying.

Edit: Been thinking about it, and I guess someone has to do it to see if it is in fact viable to do. With so many writers, and so few pen names, keeping consistency and details correct is going to be a major job, as well as keeping the quality the same.

That many writers and books? I'm not sure it is actually feasible, and if it can be done, if it will actually hold readers attention enough to be viable. In some ways, you could say this is a major gamble, especially financially. Ghostwriters get paid in advance. Editors and proofreaders and cover artists get paid before release. All the money outlay is up front. I mean 33 books a month is over $15,000 just for covers. With 60k books its 2 million words at somewhere above $8000 for a single editing pass. This is talking huge up front money. And the more it is, the bigger the risk it doesn't work.
Only time will tell though.

[LilyBLily]

In the 20books conference video, Anderle lays out that he has a team of 38 writers that are creating content under a few branded pen names and their output will be the 400 titles they release in 2019. To my mind that's a production company, or in the case of "self-publishing" a content mill with a staff of writers.

Ok, if they are a few pen names, and not in fact co-authors, then that is worrying.

Edit: Been thinking about it, and I guess someone has to do it to see if it is in fact viable to do. With so many writers, and so few pen names, keeping consistency and details correct is going to be a major job, as well as keeping the quality the same.

That many writers and books? I'm not sure it is actually feasible, and if it can be done, if it will actually hold readers attention enough to be viable. In some ways, you could say this is a major gamble, especially financially. Ghostwriters get paid in advance. Editors and proofreaders and cover artists get paid before release. All the money outlay is up front. I mean 33 books a month is over $15,000 just for covers. With 60k books its 2 million words at somewhere above $8000 for a single editing pass. This is talking huge up front money. And the more it is, the bigger the risk it doesn't work.
Only time will tell though.

I agree, a huge financial risk and one that can affect MA's brand adversely, too. The production of so many books in so short a time will require heavy oversight or else chaos will ensue. I can tell you from my own experience with a large publisher, there has to be staff to handle all the myriad components to create the "one brand" look and feel. Thinking one can easily oversee 38 writers is...very optimistic, shall we say? Additionally, not every follower of MA is going to read every book published in his universe. The number of books in one year is very high; voracious romance readers might read this many, but in other genres books often are longer and they get read at a slower pace. So not all 400 books are going to sell, or sell well. And what happens when the output of certain writers is found to be a) missing, b) inferior, c) not bought by the public, or d) some other problem? I can foresee a very negative breakup of this project.

He can definitely create a publishing empire, but there are many headaches in store for him, and I don't think any empire has the potential to monopolize readers' attention. Do Harlequin readers only read Harlequin romances? No, they read other romances, too. Did readers of Discworld only read about Discworld? No, they read other books, too. Having more books available in a world is nice, but that does not mean readers will buy them all.

Meanwhile, the rest of us will carry on doing what we do, incrementally finding our audiences, not worrying about MA's grand plan. More and more readers are not buying from the lists, anyway. They're buying from Goodreads and other recommendations. List domination might seem a looming threat, but it is by no means inevitable.

[Dormouse]

I mean 33 books a month is over $15,000 just for covers. With 60k books its 2 million words at somewhere above $8000 for a single editing pass.

For that many books, you'd employ staff to do it, so the cost per book should be lower.
Depending on how the project is structured, consistency checking might require more than normal effort.

[Dormouse]

What he's promoting is not indie publishing, it's content milling. And, as the profits will inevitably roll in, it's a trend that's only going to grow until it dominates.

The economies of scale of content mills have always given them an advantage at the pulp end of the spectrum; just as economies of scale gave trad publishers an advantage at the literary end. The indie revolution has reduced the scale advantage of trad publishers (ie printing costs) but mills and trad both have scale advantages in design, editing and marketing. Their problem is that they have to have high fixed costs or the advantage disappears. And fixed costs are a killer if sales tank. It appears that indies can continue for many years at an effective loss or very low profit. I don't think I would be prepared to work for the amount that a content mill would be prepared to pay, but it would be a different set of considerations if I were writing for myself.

[David VanDyke]

The more things change, the more they stay the same.

There have been things like this for ages (Perry Rhodan, anyone?) and they tend to be self-limiting. Until AI can write books better than people can, it will be like herding cats to get authors to do everything the central control wants them to--and that will take staff, delegation, organization, etc. It will inevitably turn into a small business, then possibly a large business, with all the usual management issues.

The advantage of indies is agility and individualized control. Anderle is trying to scale it up, but it will only scale so far before it loses the advantages of indiedom anyway. The best he'll do is to become an updated, scaled-up version of an indie press--and he may be quite successful, with his expertise. But the landscape is so big, and readers so voracious, that IMO it will be just one more thing to deal with, not some kind of disaster or game-changer.

[DrewMcGunn]

The more things change, the more they stay the same.

There have been things like this for ages (Perry Rhodan, anyone?) and they tend to be self-limiting. Until AI can write books better than people can, it will be like herding cats to get authors to do everything the central control wants them to--and that will take staff, delegation, organization, etc. It will inevitably turn into a small business, then possibly a large business, with all the usual management issues.

The advantage of indies is agility and individualized control. Anderle is trying to scale it up, but it will only scale so far before it loses the advantages of indiedom anyway. The best he'll do is to become an updated, scaled-up version of an indie press--and he may be quite successful, with his expertise. But the landscape is so big, and readers so voracious, that IMO it will be just one more thing to deal with, not some kind of disaster or game-changer.

True. But I haven't been all that impressed with the results with Eric Flint's 163X world. While I haven't read very many of those not written by Eric Flint, those that I have read were pretty uneven. And supposedly that's with Eric Flint acting as editor.

I agree that replicating and scaling are not easy to manage. If Anderle can pull it off, then props to him.

[okey dokey]

The man who started it all was Edward Stratemeyer back in the 1860s.

He created Nancy Drew, the Hardy Boys, Tom Swift, the Rover Boys, the Bobbsy Twins.
Then he hired writers to carry them forward under pen names which he owned.
His system didn't upset readers.
When he died in 1934, the Rover Boys series alonge had sold over 5 million copies.

[Yakuza]

Kind of pointless to single out Michael Anderle. What he's doing would be done by the most successful indie anyway. At least he talks about it so you are now aware of it. Hasn't Bella Forrest been quietly doing what he's doing, and maybe even started doing it before he started? No one even know who s/he is . . .

[guest1038]

What he's doing would be done by the most successful indie anyway.

I disagree, and I view the Bella Forrest model as a problem too. But, whatever, looks like most everyone here isn't all that concerned. I don't know, I suppose seeing that from my indie peers should convince me not to be worried about it myself - and in time maybe that'll be the case - but I'm not quite there yet. I'm seeing storm clouds where everyone else is seeing slight showers...maybe I need a different set of goggles. 

[RappaDizzy]

What he's doing would be done by the most successful indie anyway.

I disagree, and I view the Bella Forrest model as a problem too. But, whatever, looks like most everyone here isn't all that concerned. I don't know, I suppose seeing that from my indie peers should convince me not to be worried about it myself - and in time maybe that'll be the case - but I'm not quite there yet. I'm seeing storm clouds where everyone else is seeing slight showers...maybe I need a different set of goggles. 

Try beer goggles - I find they make everything look better no matter what.

[guest1038]

Well, it makes sense given this particular subject is enough to drive me to drink.

[Ghost5]

But, whatever, looks like most everyone here isn't all that concerned.

Speaking for myself, I see models like Patterson and Anderle (and I have no idea what Bella Forrest does--is it the same?) and tend to tune them out. Not because I think they do or don't do damage, but because I can't concern myself with it. It's not something I'm remotely interested in, frankly. The reason I quit my job in healthcare was to write. And yes, I'm an entrepreneur because I indie publish. But the very last thing I want is to pay other people to write my content, and I sure as hell hell don't want to farm out my story ideas. The concept is heinous to me, not because I think it's a monstrous thing to do but because it would be a monstrous thing to do to myself.

I gave up a lucrative career because I wanted to write, not manage other writers. Hell's bells, I managed enough people before.

Now, I'm a writer. And yeah, I want to be as successful as I can. But not at the expense of not writing the stories myself. That's where the joy is for me.

I can see that other people feel differently. I'm okay with that. They have to do what's right for them and their path. Having said that, I also see why people get really upset by the whole concept, too.
 

[David VanDyke]

The issue is as old as books. Harlequin for example had multiple writers for its more popular pen names, and even if it didn't make everything under a pen name, it made the books into lookalike commodities, factory style.

Readers have a way of sorting these things out, getting tired of the factory pap and looking for stuff with that je ne sais quoi factor. It's a short-term tactical issue, but not a long-term issue for success.

[guest1038]

The issue is as old as books. Harlequin for example had multiple writers for its more popular pen names, and even if it didn't make everything under a pen name, it made the books into lookalike commodities, factory style.

Readers have a way of sorting these things out, getting tired of the factory pap and looking for stuff with that je ne sais qoui factor. It's a short-term tactical issue, but not a long-term issue for success.

I've been looking at this like post-2020 the only options we indies will have to publish will be: vanity, trad, work for an Anderle-like content mill.

But, I admit your Harlequin analogy is compelling. Really, I suppose you could say that's the model he's adopting. No?

I hope you're right about readers getting tired of 'factory pap'. I'm worried that I won't be able to afford visibility anymore once Anderle's model takes off and others scramble to emulate him, thus driving the visibility cost even higher, and so on and so on until the entire market is nothing but content mills.

Then again...I don't know...the rest of you don't seem to have your hair on fire over this, maybe it's causing my scalp to feel the burn more than it should.

[Crystal]

I don't think someone running a content mill is indie. They're a small press. Their thoughts about indie publishing are mostly irrelevant.

[angela]

I don't think someone running a content mill is indie. They're a small press. Their thoughts about indie publishing are mostly irrelevant.

I call myself "indie" but perhaps the correct title would be "chronically understaffed and suffering the delusion of control due to infinite choices that have no right answer".

[LilyBLily]

The issue is as old as books. Harlequin for example had multiple writers for its more popular pen names, and even if it didn't make everything under a pen name, it made the books into lookalike commodities, factory style.

Readers have a way of sorting these things out, getting tired of the factory pap and looking for stuff with that je ne sais qoui factor. It's a short-term tactical issue, but not a long-term issue for success.

I don't think Harlequin ever had multiple writers for its most popular pen names, other than some husband-and-wife teams who wrote under a female name. I met most of their American authors face-to-face, and some of their British authors, and I worked for Harlequin for a long time and never heard a whisper about multiple authors under one pen name. Harlequin authors were constrained to use pseudonyms that they couldn't use elsewhere, but eventually that got set aside; I believe the RWA had a hand in breaking the pseudonym rule (which most other publishers enforced, too), but it was actually to Harlequin's advantage when some of "their" authors went on to bigger fame under their real names for other publishers. 

As for lookalike commodities, although Harlequin spectacularly failed to create "category" sf and mysteries, its multiple romance lines offered variety to romance readers that allowed Harlequin to continue to enforce what is often called formula writing but in reality is more like formula parameters. I've heard of other publishers actually demanding formula romance writing (e.g., "You must have X sex scenes and they must be here and here in the story"). Of course there were authors and readers who wanted something different, and there were and are publishers offering other choices. I liken Harlequin to a large ocean liner--unable to turn or stop or start quickly. Indies have the advantage of maneuverability over Harlequin and every other traditional publisher who insists on taking a year or more to get a book out. On the other hand, these publishers, because they can't be fast and trendy, tend to steer a middle course that keeps their sales from collapsing when reading fashions change. So, much as I hate to say it, I think we probably see more pap books-as-commodity from indie authors (or indie content mills) than we do from the big dogs of trad pub. 
 

[guest1038]

I don't think audiences are going to be near as discerning as anyone might hope. I could easily see the Anderle model churning out a homogenized product under a handful of pen name brands and readers lapping it up. Lapping it up, that is, to the tune of store dominance that will render any individual author, who is without tens or perhaps hundreds of thousands in revenue to spend on ads, into invisibility.

[Crystal]

I don't think audiences are going to be near as discerning as anyone might hope. I could easily see the Anderle model churning out a homogenized product under a handful of pen name brands and readers lapping it up. Lapping it up, that is, to the tune of store dominance that will render any individual author, who is without tens or perhaps hundreds of thousands in revenue to spend on ads, into invisibility.

Mills can dominate, for sure, but they'll always put out more bland, generic content in an attempt to please as many people as possible. Yes, readers who want that will likely flock to mills, but I don't think most readers want that.

Look at Harlequin: they've been struggling for a long time. Even when they did well, they rarely published bestsellers. They're also seen as more cheap, crappy writing compared to not-category books. A lot of readers want to believe they're discriminating and will avoid anything that looks cheap.

Idie bloomed bc of our ability to put out content that isn't generic, that publishers don't consider profitable enough. We need to focus on that. Don't be any generic genre writer. Be a writer who offers a very specific emotional experience.

You can see this in romance. (Almost) All the A and B list authors have a really clear brand and offer a consistent experience from book to book, whether it's type of hero or tone or subject matter.

[sandree]

I don't think audiences are going to be near as discerning as anyone might hope. I could easily see the Anderle model churning out a homogenized product under a handful of pen name brands and readers lapping it up. Lapping it up, that is, to the tune of store dominance that will render any individual author, who is without tens or perhaps hundreds of thousands in revenue to spend on ads, into invisibility.

Mills can dominate, for sure, but they'll always put out more bland, generic content in an attempt to please as many people as possible. Yes, readers who want that will likely flock to mills, but I don't think most readers want that.

Look at Harlequin: they've been struggling for a long time. Even when they did well, they rarely published bestsellers. They're also seen as more cheap, crappy writing compared to not-category books. A lot of readers want to believe they're discriminating and will avoid anything that looks cheap.

Idie bloomed bc of our ability to put out content that isn't generic, that publishers don't consider profitable enough. We need to focus on that. Don't be any generic genre writer. Be a writer who offers a very specific emotional experience.

You can see this in romance. (Almost) All the A and B list authors have a really clear brand and offer a consistent experience from book to book, whether it's type of hero or tone or subject matter.

I agree. Even though I have read science fiction and fantasy for many years, I always avoided the entire section in the bookstore dedicated to what I perceived as mass produced science fiction/fantasy. I honestly don’t know what those books are all about because I’ve never read one. I just assumed the writing would be poor and I would perceive the same of books written by an indie mill. Only problem is, online, I might be less aware that the books were produced in that way.

[Marigold]

The issue is as old as books. Harlequin for example had multiple writers for its more popular pen names, and even if it didn't make everything under a pen name, it made the books into lookalike commodities, factory style.

Readers have a way of sorting these things out, getting tired of the factory pap and looking for stuff with that je ne sais quoi factor. It's a short-term tactical issue, but not a long-term issue for success.

             

[BillSmithBooksDotCom]

I doubt it's 20booksto50K she's taking a stab at here--she and her husband were at their conference promoting their own courses and other income streams. Surely they wouldn't insult someone who let them have the platform.

Also, she's wrong in this: you CAN make really good guesses about someone's income from public data if you know all the pen names. For instance, if their last three books have two reviews each at Goodreads, those books are not making mystery millions somewhere else. Two reviews means no one is reading them and no one is interested in reading them. If you're a new writer or launching a pen name, that's of course no bad reflection on your skill or even your marketing knowledge. It's simply difficult to get the ball rolling these days.

Otherwise, yes, sure, there are a lot of scammers and a lot of people who can't sell their novels making money by selling hope to other writers. I appreciate folks like David Van Dyke who offer the advice up for free.

Not to disagree but more to elaborate:

Kris and Dean have a really diversified income stream: They have literally hundreds of short stories and novellas for sale across virtually every platform (short stories are normally priced $2.99 plus, novellas $4-5), they have trade (CreateSpace) paperbacks that get into some bookstores (I have seen them locally in my nearest store -- owner is a sff guy, so I don't know if their trade distribution is widespread), they do a TON of bundles on BundleRabbit, Storybundle, and various other bundles ... so while they have no single product that sells gangbusters, they have lots and lots of products that sell dribs and drabs. But in the aggregate, it is a lot of total sales over time.

That's the advantage of having such a huge backlist. It's great for them because it is essentially a passive income that keeps paying off every month. (This is the point in Dean's "magic bakery" series of posts.)

PLUS, they do the conferences and tons of workshops (both live and ones you can buy online).

~~~

Michael Anderle's business model is actually pretty familiar to me as a fan of the TSR/Forgotten Realms/Dragonlance novels and Marvel and DC comics and numerous RPG systems/universes, as well as lines like Star Trek, Star Wars, etc. It sounds like he is creating a consistent universe with a ton of hired freelancers to fill in the details.

[CoraBuhlert]

And Dean actually used to write tie-in novels for Star Trek and the like, so they're familiar with the basic model.