Need advice...moving scenes in a book

[munboy]

My current WIP is an YA action/adventure sequel. At around the 1/3 mark in the novel, the MC passes out and wakes up as a captive. Some stuff happens, including almost escaping (he fails) and he passes out again. Then he wakes up and finds out he's been missing for a day, but has no memory of what happened to him beyond a few odd dreams. So, the reader knows what happened to him, but he doesn't. Later in the last quarter of the book, an event triggers his memory of this time.

I'm questioning the placement. Should I move these scenes to the triggering event so the reader finds out when he remembers? I had made up my mind that when I got to this place in the novel, I'd move the scenes, but now I'm questioning it because those scenes are 3 chapters between 2100-2500 words each. That seems like a lot for a "flashback" that late in the book. The key sequence during this time is images of his friends dying in front of him are planted in his mind, which affects his behavior through the rest of the story. If I move that, the reader will get the same flashes of images and dreams of his friends dying but they won't know why he's having them.

Thoughts? Feeling? Need more info?

Oh, and the book is past tense, 1st person in his POV. As it is, it's like he's telling the story as it happens but forgets what had happened to him as soon as he passes out again and wakes up with his friends but the reader already knows.

[VanessaC]

Hmm. Interesting one. 

You say it's first person, so my inclination would be to keep the story going from his POV, i.e. he doesn't know what's happened, so the reader can't know what's happened, but then the reader follows with him as he starts putting together the pieces and filling in the blanks - that would break up the chunk of text you mention, and be consistent with a first person POV.  Does that make sense?

I guess I would question what the reader actually needs to know - if you really want the reader to know what's happening, there needs to be a compelling reason for his memory loss of events.  An alternative is to have a third person / omniscient narrator for the times when he's unconscious, but it sounds like those passages are actually quite short in the overall book and it might be jarring for the reader if that's the only third person / omniscient POV in the story.

No idea if that's helpful or not, just some random thoughts.  Best of luck.

[angela]

Sounds like a structure that works better in present tense.

If it's written in past tense, and he's telling the story from the future point of, let's say, the day after the final scene of the book (which is pretty common as a theoretical "now" set point) there needs to be a reason why he wouldn't relay to the reader all the events that happened, in their order.

If he doesn't reveal what happened during his blackout period, it would be nice to hang a lampshade on it.

i.e. "When I woke up, I had no idea what happened... and I wouldn't discover it for another day. That's why I blah blah next and then blah blah. "  It doesn't need to be long or detailed to be effective. It's possible you're feeling uncertain about the scene order only because you need to toss in a few narrative lines to make it clear to the reader it's not a mistake that will have them flipping back and forward wondering what they missed.

ETA: Is it necessary to the plot that the MC have amnesia? People in books black out a lot. Sometimes when I'm reading a book and the character blacks out, I get the sense the author didn't know how to end the chapter. Or things were slow, pace-wise, and they wanted to push the timeline forward in a hop. Not sayin' you did that, but it's generally good story hygiene to keep blackouts to only the essential ones!

Also, I would put the scenes in the order they happened, unless there's a really strong reason not to.

[munboy]

Hmm. Interesting one. 

You say it's first person, so my inclination would be to keep the story going from his POV, i.e. he doesn't know what's happened, so the reader can't know what's happened, but then the reader follows with him as he starts putting together the pieces and filling in the blanks - that would break up the chunk of text you mention, and be consistent with a first person POV.  Does that make sense?

I guess I would question what the reader actually needs to know - if you really want the reader to know what's happening, there needs to be a compelling reason for his memory loss of events.  An alternative is to have a third person / omniscient narrator for the times when he's unconscious, but it sounds like those passages are actually quite short in the overall book and it might be jarring for the reader if that's the only third person / omniscient POV in the story.

No idea if that's helpful or not, just some random thoughts.  Best of luck.

I had planned on the memories all coming back in a rush but I do like the idea of breaking it into pieces that come to him bit by bit after the triggering event. That would help my reservations of such a long flashback that late in the book.

Is it written in present tense or past tense?

If it's written in past tense, and he's telling the story from the future point of, let's say, the day after the final scene of the book (which is pretty common as a theoretical "now" set point) there needs to be a reason why he wouldn't relay to the reader all the events that happened, in their order.

If he doesn't reveal what happened during his blackout period, it would be nice to hang a lampshade on it.

i.e. "When I woke up, I had no idea what happened... and I wouldn't discover it for another day. That's why I blah blah next and then blah blah. "  It doesn't need to be long or detailed to be effective. It's possible you're feeling uncertain about the scene order only because you need to toss in a few narrative lines to make it clear to the reader it's not a mistake that will have them flipping back and forward wondering what they missed.

It is past tense. That's definitely something to consider. I'm not sure about him telling the reader he found out what happened later but doesn't tell them. This is a sequel and he's always been straight forward with his "audience." When he gets angry, when he's being an idiot, when he doesn't understand something. He tells them.

[munboy]

Sounds like a structure that works better in present tense.

ETA: Is it necessary to the plot that the MC have amnesia? People in books black out a lot. Sometimes when I'm reading a book and the character blacks out, I get the sense the author didn't know how to end the chapter. Or things were slow, pace-wise, and they wanted to push the timeline forward in a hop. Not sayin' you did that, but it's generally good story hygiene to keep blackouts to only the essential ones!

Also, I would put the scenes in the order they happened, unless there's a really strong reason not to.

It's a sequel, so no switching to present tense. This book wasn't planned when I wrote the first....it was meant to be a stand alone, but I loved the world and characters so much, I had to continue their story.

The amnesia is part of the main baddie breaking the MC down mentally. For all he knows, he's having weird dreams about his friends dying for no reason at all....and it eventually leads to betrayal because, unknown to his group of friends, the same thing is happening to his friends.

[feste]

I'm questioning the placement. Should I move these scenes to the triggering event so the reader finds out when he remembers? I had made up my mind that when I got to this place in the novel, I'd move the scenes, but now I'm questioning it because those scenes are 3 chapters between 2100-2500 words each. That seems like a lot for a "flashback" that late in the book. The key sequence during this time is images of his friends dying in front of him are planted in his mind, which affects his behavior through the rest of the story. If I move that, the reader will get the same flashes of images and dreams of his friends dying but they won't know why he's having them.

Thoughts? Feeling? Need more info?

Oh, and the book is past tense, 1st person in his POV. As it is, it's like he's telling the story as it happens but forgets what had happened to him as soon as he passes out again and wakes up with his friends but the reader already knows.

Years ago I read a biography of Clara Bow, a silent-movie actress who'd been sexually abused as a child; the author didn't include the information until Bow remembered it during therapy as an adult.  Coming when it did, the information was really shocking--I've always remembered how effective the technique was.  I think moving the scene would be a splendid idea.

re: length of flashback:  Julie of the Wolves, a book for teenagers by Jean George, has an incredibly long flashback--about a third of the book.  I think if introduced with a clear phrase, a fairly long flashback would work.

I'm not convinced that past tense would be a problem here.  You say that the character is straightforward, but he's still only able to tell the reader what he knows at that time; since he doesn't know what happened during his blackout, then he shouldn't be able to tell the reader what happened, either.

The "remembering bits and pieces" idea is good; you'll probably need to make sure all the bits get fitted together for the reader at some point because--well, we readers can miss things and be awfully dense sometimes.

[munboy]

I'm questioning the placement. Should I move these scenes to the triggering event so the reader finds out when he remembers? I had made up my mind that when I got to this place in the novel, I'd move the scenes, but now I'm questioning it because those scenes are 3 chapters between 2100-2500 words each. That seems like a lot for a "flashback" that late in the book. The key sequence during this time is images of his friends dying in front of him are planted in his mind, which affects his behavior through the rest of the story. If I move that, the reader will get the same flashes of images and dreams of his friends dying but they won't know why he's having them.

Thoughts? Feeling? Need more info?

Oh, and the book is past tense, 1st person in his POV. As it is, it's like he's telling the story as it happens but forgets what had happened to him as soon as he passes out again and wakes up with his friends but the reader already knows.

Years ago I read a biography of Clara Bow, a silent-movie actress who'd been sexually abused as a child; the author didn't include the information until Bow remembered it during therapy as an adult.  Coming when it did, the information was really shocking--I've always remembered how effective the technique was.  I think moving the scene would be a splendid idea.

re: length of flashback:  Julie of the Wolves, a book for teenagers by Jean George, has an incredibly long flashback--about a third of the book.  I think if introduced with a clear phrase, a fairly long flashback would work.

I'm not convinced that past tense would be a problem here.  You say that the character is straightforward, but he's still only able to tell the reader what he knows at that time; since he doesn't know what happened during his blackout, then he shouldn't be able to tell the reader what happened, either.

The "remembering bits and pieces" idea is good; you'll probably need to make sure all the bits get fitted together for the reader at some point because--well, we readers can miss things and be awfully dense sometimes.

Makes sense. The flashback does include an action scene when he tries to escape, so that should keep it lively for my readers. One thing I do have to think about is what moving such a large chunk does to the overall story structure.

[Jeff Tanyard]

Makes sense. The flashback does include an action scene when he tries to escape, so that should keep it lively for my readers. One thing I do have to think about is what moving such a large chunk does to the overall story structure.

Can you move the scene to the beginning of the book?  Would the timeline of events allow for that?  It sounds like the scene might work well to hook the readers into the rest of the story, so putting it at the beginning might be worth considering.

[angela]

I guess the big question is... what is your intended effect on the reader?

If you want there to be "dramatic irony" - where the reader knows something the character doesn't, show the events and then the amnesia. The reader will be dreading / anticipating the reveal.

if you don't want dramatic irony for tension, but want a mystery hook instead, then do it as a flashback. Depends on the genre and your style. Dramatic irony happens a lot in thrillers / action-adventure, often by a POV change, whereas the mystery hook happens more in mysteries, but it could go the other way, too.

The big thing you want to avoid is the reader becoming annoyed that the MC isn't catching on fast enough to what's clear to them, if it's clear to them. Even if it's realistic in the writing, they'll hold it against the character that they were made to wait for the story to "catch up" to what they know.

[munboy]

I guess the big question is... what is your intended effect on the reader?

If you want there to be "dramatic irony" - where the reader knows something the character doesn't, show the events and then the amnesia. The reader will be dreading / anticipating the reveal.

if you don't want dramatic irony for tension, but want a mystery hook instead, then do it as a flashback. Depends on the genre and your style. Dramatic irony happens a lot in thrillers / action-adventure, often by a POV change, whereas the mystery hook happens more in mysteries, but it could go the other way, too.

The big thing you want to avoid is the reader becoming annoyed that the MC isn't catching on fast enough to what's clear to them, if it's clear to them. Even if it's realistic in the writing, they'll hold it against the character that they were made to wait for the story to "catch up" to what they know.

I guess by the end of the book, what happened to him isn't the real dramatic moment...the fact that the same thing had been happening to his friends and they all kept it a secret is. That leads up to a betrayal. Throughout the book, he wonders why he doesn't tell his friends the truth...the fact that he keeps having these realistic images of them dying and doesn't know why...but they're bickering and fighting among themselves, so he keeps it to himself.

Thinking of it that way, it seems like revealing these scenes in "real time" within the story makes sense. We follow the MC's struggles struggles throughout the book and then, BAM oh yeah, you're not the only one buddy...and this person was affected a lot worse than you.

[munboy]

Makes sense. The flashback does include an action scene when he tries to escape, so that should keep it lively for my readers. One thing I do have to think about is what moving such a large chunk does to the overall story structure.

Can you move the scene to the beginning of the book?  Would the timeline of events allow for that?  It sounds like the scene might work well to hook the readers into the rest of the story, so putting it at the beginning might be worth considering.

Oh man, that would jack my story structure all to pieces. 

Besides, this sequel follows the same type of beginning as the first book, something I did intentionally and something I'll carry into the third book.

[She-la-te-da]

Just because a book is written in past tense doesn't mean it's retelling something that happened in the past. It could be going on as the character/narrator is telling the story. Present tense is not required.

I would have the scenes placed as they happen in the plot, not as some huge chunk of flashback later. It's fine that the reader knows what happens and the character doesn't, so long as you're writing it in a way that doesn't confuse the reader.

[munboy]

Just because a book is written in past tense doesn't mean it's retelling something that happened in the past. It could be going on as the character/narrator is telling the story. Present tense is not required.

I would have the scenes placed as they happen in the plot, not as some huge chunk of flashback later. It's fine that the reader knows what happens and the character doesn't, so long as you're writing it in a way that doesn't confuse the reader.

That's the route I decided to go with (unless I change my mind before publishing  ). When I realized the MC remembering what happened to him wasn't the emotional payoff at the end of the book, I thought there was no need to move it. Let the readers know what happened and squirm as they watch him descend further and further into the aftermath.