Author Topic: Is editing really helping your book?  (Read 21460 times)

idontknowyet

Is editing really helping your book?
« on: September 29, 2019, 01:51:05 AM »
In school my teachers always said your first guess is usually your best guess. I followed that advice all the way through college and for the most part it was accurate.

Recently I have been transcribing my notebooks into my typed portions. I've been using this time to do a pseudo first edit. I find that anything I change I turn around a go back to the original version. It's usually the best one.

Note: I'm not talking about grammar and typos got a billion of those.

Does editing and rewriting really help your book?
 

Simon Haynes

Re: Is editing really helping your book?
« Reply #1 on: September 29, 2019, 02:11:19 AM »
I used to think yes, now I say 'sometimes'.

I've published heavily-edited novels and some which were almost 'write and forget'. Taking the first book in each of my series, 5 novels in all, the average review rating across all of them is about the same.



An example of the sort of editing I will still tackle:

I was writing chapter 34, and I realised things had come to a halt.

My main character rescued people in chapter 25 who were more capable and senior to her. Therefore, after that point she stopped being the lone wolf saving everyone, and became a small cog in a big machine. So, I went back and cancelled that rescue, instead having her free a handful of useless dweebs while all the others were spirited away by the enemy. There was just one guy she could rely on.

I had to modify chapters 26+, removing the senior officers and altering the scenes where they'd been giving orders or standing around looking senior and official. (Their lines mostly went to that one guy, with changes. Hate wasting my verbiage.)


During my previous novel I scratched a couple of chapters because I'd gone the wrong way. I guess you could call that editing too, although it was more like a branching path in the plot.
 
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Maggie Ann

Re: Is editing really helping your book?
« Reply #2 on: September 29, 2019, 02:52:20 AM »
When someone else does the editing, yes.

A couple of times I was saved from bland scenes and once from a confusing ending by my editor (two different people). Most recently, I sent off Book 1 while I worked on Book 2. I wasn't that happy overall with Book 1 and #2 was coming out the same way. My editor pointed out the problem and I made the change about a quarter of the way through #2.

Book 1 will need a rewrite to line up with the changes to #2 and I'll have to go through the beginning of #2.

Saved by The Editor!!!

           
 
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idontknowyet

Re: Is editing really helping your book?
« Reply #3 on: September 29, 2019, 02:59:48 AM »
When someone else does the editing, yes.

A couple of times I was saved from bland scenes and once from a confusing ending by my editor (two different people). Most recently, I sent off Book 1 while I worked on Book 2. I wasn't that happy overall with Book 1 and #2 was coming out the same way. My editor pointed out the problem and I made the change about a quarter of the way through #2.

Book 1 will need a rewrite to line up with the changes to #2 and I'll have to go through the beginning of #2.

Saved by The Editor!!!
That was cool that she/he could make such a difference.

I'm really new to this so I don't always get the way people work, but why write a book you don't like? I mean I can barely get down a sentence I don't like I usually end up erasing/deleting it and coming back to it when my mind sorts out the problem.
 

JRTomlin

Re: Is editing really helping your book?
« Reply #4 on: September 29, 2019, 03:17:01 AM »
A good editor helps. It is easy for a writer to change things in their own work just to change them rather than for a good reason. I know. I used to spend a lot of time doing that. An experienced outside eye can spot plot problems or sentence structure problems that, just like typos, we don't see.

I am 75% through a novel that I'm not sure whether I like or not. It has good parts but I am honestly not sure I love it. But I am a writer so... 🤷
« Last Edit: September 29, 2019, 03:19:21 AM by JRTomlin »
 
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Bill Hiatt

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Re: Is editing really helping your book?
« Reply #5 on: September 29, 2019, 03:25:15 AM »
I think it depends on the individual writer and what his or her process is.

In my experience, very few people produce their best work in just one draft. (The exception would be people who edit as they draft. Sometimes, that works. But I think it still counts as editing.)



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RiverRun

Re: Is editing really helping your book?
« Reply #6 on: September 29, 2019, 04:58:04 AM »
I compulsively edit as I go, but I do find sometimes that I'm just moving words in the hopes of hitting on something 'better', and often put them back later. Sometimes the results are simply that I'm ruining my original voice and not improving anything. Especially when I was first getting started, I did this lot. I think really effective editing tends to be more of cutting out dull or unnecessary words or sentences, catching echoes, (like when I use the same unusual word in the same paragraph), making things more clear, or more impactful. For a long time I felt that I was just changing things randomly. I don't think it's always bad to do this because sometimes it gives you new ideas. But now I try to identify why I'm making a change. What is the purpose behind it?

I also found this book really helpful.

https://www.amazon.com/Self-Editing-Fiction-Writers-Second-Yourself/dp/0060545690

Have you read On Writing by Stephen King? The end of the book has a good basic primer on editing, including a sample edit of a part of one of his books.

« Last Edit: September 29, 2019, 05:16:52 AM by RiverRun »
 
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DougM

Re: Is editing really helping your book?
« Reply #7 on: September 29, 2019, 05:46:35 AM »
I re-edited my first book after I'd written quite a few others. I took a lot of small stuff out, moved some things around, and shifted a different scene into the end. It was a better book for that.

I frequency go back and alter scenes as my thinking develops.

On the other hand, many scenes exist as first written and never change.
 
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Maggie Ann

Re: Is editing really helping your book?
« Reply #8 on: September 29, 2019, 06:00:06 AM »
When someone else does the editing, yes.

A couple of times I was saved from bland scenes and once from a confusing ending by my editor (two different people). Most recently, I sent off Book 1 while I worked on Book 2. I wasn't that happy overall with Book 1 and #2 was coming out the same way. My editor pointed out the problem and I made the change about a quarter of the way through #2.

Book 1 will need a rewrite to line up with the changes to #2 and I'll have to go through the beginning of #2.

Saved by The Editor!!!
That was cool that she/he could make such a difference.

I'm really new to this so I don't always get the way people work, but why write a book you don't like? I mean I can barely get down a sentence I don't like I usually end up erasing/deleting it and coming back to it when my mind sorts out the problem.

JKR said she'd like to rewrite the Harry Potter books. Even wildly successful authors second guess themselves because they (and we) are too close to the material. That's why we need fresh eyes on what we write.

In my case, all I knew was that something was off. I just didn't know what.

I can go through and correct punctuation, let Word point out spelling and grammatical errors (it's not always right), and take out 4,753 occurrences of the word just, but that's not good enough.
           
 
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idontknowyet

Re: Is editing really helping your book?
« Reply #9 on: September 29, 2019, 06:00:37 AM »
I compulsively edit as I go, but I do find sometimes that I'm just moving words in the hopes of hitting on something 'better', and often put them back later. Sometimes the results are simply that I'm ruining my original voice and not improving anything. Especially when I was first getting started, I did this lot. I think really effective editing tends to be more of cutting out dull or unnecessary words or sentences, catching echoes, (like when I use the same unusual word in the same paragraph), making things more clear, or more impactful. For a long time I felt that I was just changing things randomly. I don't think it's always bad to do this because sometimes it gives you new ideas. But now I try to identify why I'm making a change. What is the purpose behind it?

I also found this book really helpful.

https://www.amazon.com/Self-Editing-Fiction-Writers-Second-Yourself/dp/0060545690

Have you read On Writing by Stephen King? The end of the book has a good basic primer on editing, including a sample edit of a part of one of his books.

I haven't taken a class or read anything about writing since my first bout of college. My main goal then was to get it done with an A and get out. Absolutely no information retention to be seen. Though I did enjoy the lively debates in English 2.

I am not saying my writing is amazing, cause basically I am guessing it's going to stink.

My poor editor is going to cry and ask for her mommy when she see's my book.
I've just been noticing trends in my writing.  I've read posts from prolific writers that say for the most part they don't go back and do massive rewrites. They write, proofread and publish. It seems effective for them.  I am sure they have way more writing education/experience than I do. It just seems like maybe over thinking words doesn't always help us tell our stories.
 

Shoe

Re: Is editing really helping your book?
« Reply #10 on: September 29, 2019, 06:32:39 AM »

Does editing and rewriting really help your book?

I think so, though I've never done a major structural revision. Just things like adding a little foreboding here, putting in more history to enhance a pending plot twist.
Martin Luther King: "Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity."
 
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PJ Post

Re: Is editing really helping your book?
« Reply #11 on: September 29, 2019, 06:34:09 AM »
Unequivocally - YES!

Anyone who says their first draft is their best work is being, at best, disingenuous. If they were THAT amazing without even thinking about it, imagine how much better it would be if they put some effort in?

Whatever you want to call it: editing, rewriting, fixing, cycling, adjusting, moving stuff around - it will always produce a better book, with the caveat that you need to be careful not to edit the soul or voice out of the narrative.

I think it was King who said to go back and identify themes...and reinforce them. It gives us time to build on metaphors, establish mood and set up situations, especially emotional ones, which will payoff later in the book. I'm looking at you Hodor. It also gives us a broader perspective to improve pacing, beats and narrative rhythm. It's not about changing a lot, a single word can make all the difference on the page.

An outside editor can obviously help with grammar and such, but they can also offer advice that will elevate the narrative, focus and tighten it, make it a better version of itself - just make sure they're on the same page as you, otherwise there’s a good chance they’ll screw it up.
 
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MCMLXXV

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Re: Is editing really helping your book?
« Reply #12 on: September 29, 2019, 09:11:57 AM »
I have to go back and augment parts (sometimes large parts) of my stories after a period of sober second thought because I find it strengthens the overall effort. Helps me steer the ship in the direction I'd originally intended as I tend to drift off-course during first passage. Granted, this is a fairly subjective thing. I can only speak for myself.
 
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elleoco

Re: Is editing really helping your book?
« Reply #13 on: September 29, 2019, 11:04:46 AM »
I have two books that IMO were really strengthened by major revisions because of outside output. However, I also know that deep down I already knew those sections needed exactly what I ended up doing. I just needed a kick in the butt to make me do it. Another book ended up shorter than I liked, and it was a beta reader who suggested what ended up being a great subplot, which is a revision of sorts, yes?

However, the first book I wrote (second I published) would get a lot of editing even just from me rewriting it now, as I've learned a lot about showing vs. telling, controlling POV, deepening POV, etc. Yet it's the one of my books that evokes the strongest positive reactions from readers. The characters and story just resonate the most. It will be 10 years since I published it this coming spring, and it still gets the most reviews of my books, still sells the best of backlist, etc. I'm afraid to touch it. My writerly ambition is to write another than affects as many people as strongly and as positively. That book does make me often debate with myself over the value of outside opinions.

LilyBLily

Re: Is editing really helping your book?
« Reply #14 on: September 29, 2019, 12:26:18 PM »
I submitted a partial of my first romance to seven RWA chapter contests, revising after each one based on the comments by the multiple judges of each contest. The last three times I entered it, it placed among the winners. I still had to edit the rest of the story myself, but I'd gotten a boatload of good advice and could take the consensus as the right path to pursue. It's still my bestselling romance.

My very first story, which was not a romance, went straight to several agents and editors and was heavily revised with each submission. I think the opening chapter suffered a lot from it. It may read more logically but I think some of the spirited quality of my heroine got crushed.

I could rewrite either of these much better today, but I'm not going to.

 
 
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Hopscotch

Re: Is editing really helping your book?
« Reply #15 on: September 29, 2019, 06:08:59 PM »
"A film is made in the editing." - Sergei Eisenstein, the greatest of Russian filmmakers.  So, too, a book.
. .
 
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Simon Haynes

Re: Is editing really helping your book?
« Reply #16 on: September 29, 2019, 06:22:51 PM »
I see myself as a journeyman author - solid 4 star novels, entertaining but nothing extraordinary or culturally significant.

I'm happy with that, and I make a living from my work.

Having outlined my position, I'm not anti-editing by any means, and in fact I worked with an editor on four of my novels. That experience taught me a lot, and I've used that knowledge ever since. I would recommend that all authors go through the same experience with at least one of their novels.

 
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Simon Haynes

Re: Is editing really helping your book?
« Reply #17 on: September 29, 2019, 06:29:35 PM »
In addition to the above... (should have edited my post, hah.)

My fourth novel was a mess. It ended up at 140,000 words, I couldn't decide what to include and what to leave out, and I spent the entire time writing it wondering what my editor was going to say to this or that.

I was using the editor as a crutch, throwing everything into the novel so she could sort it out afterwards. I second-guessed myself, kept trying to come up with bigger and better twists, and hated the entire writing process. When I did hand the MS in my editor was really disappointed with the whole thing, and I felt like a crushing failure.

Eventually I rewrote the novel, almost from scratch, and it ended up at 90k.  It was also the only novel of mine to be shortlisted for two major genre awards, so ... there you go. Disproving my own points in a very obvious way.

But... nominations or not, I vowed never to go through that process again. I managed to get out of the publishing contract and I've been indie ever since. I edit as I go, and as long as the plot is consistent and the story makes sense, I'm good.

 
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VanessaC

Re: Is editing really helping your book?
« Reply #18 on: September 29, 2019, 06:57:51 PM »
Really enjoying this thread, and lots of interesting comments from more experienced writers above.

I'm finding that my process is evolving as I go - currently working on edits for what will be my seventh published novel.

For me, one of the huge benefits of editing / rewriting myself is that I quite often find that, having written the first draft, I then come up with better, bolder ideas in the revision process - so although my first ideas are fine, by digging in a bit more, I come up with a more interesting twist or take on the scene. We writers do love to torture our characters ...  grint

I also really value external input - although it does have to be from the right people. At the moment I have a super beta reader (more like a mini developmental edit) and she calls me out on inconsistencies and where things don't hang together, which I appreciate - working through her comments just now.


 
     



Genre: Fantasy
 
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RiverRun

Re: Is editing really helping your book?
« Reply #19 on: September 29, 2019, 10:56:40 PM »
I compulsively edit as I go, but I do find sometimes that I'm just moving words in the hopes of hitting on something 'better', and often put them back later. Sometimes the results are simply that I'm ruining my original voice and not improving anything. Especially when I was first getting started, I did this lot. I think really effective editing tends to be more of cutting out dull or unnecessary words or sentences, catching echoes, (like when I use the same unusual word in the same paragraph), making things more clear, or more impactful. For a long time I felt that I was just changing things randomly. I don't think it's always bad to do this because sometimes it gives you new ideas. But now I try to identify why I'm making a change. What is the purpose behind it?

I also found this book really helpful.

https://www.amazon.com/Self-Editing-Fiction-Writers-Second-Yourself/dp/0060545690

Have you read On Writing by Stephen King? The end of the book has a good basic primer on editing, including a sample edit of a part of one of his books.

I haven't taken a class or read anything about writing since my first bout of college. My main goal then was to get it done with an A and get out. Absolutely no information retention to be seen. Though I did enjoy the lively debates in English 2.

I am not saying my writing is amazing, cause basically I am guessing it's going to stink.

My poor editor is going to cry and ask for her mommy when she see's my book.
I've just been noticing trends in my writing.  I've read posts from prolific writers that say for the most part they don't go back and do massive rewrites. They write, proofread and publish. It seems effective for them.  I am sure they have way more writing education/experience than I do. It just seems like maybe over thinking words doesn't always help us tell our stories.


There is another extreme that doesn't seem to turn up as much in the indie world, (not that I'm an expert on the indie world), but much more so in writer's groups and colleges. It suggests that one should constantly edit and polish one's writing, Analyze every phrase and rethink every scene, (sometimes to the point where one ends up with analysis paralysis and can't finish a book.) There have been many excellent writers who wrote this way - Ernest Hemingway and James Joyce are the notable examples I know of. I read also somewhere that Dean Koontz perfects every page before moving on. His first draft is his last because he cannot keep writing until he's finished with a page. That's pretty unusual though I think.

However, most of us fall somewhere in-between. When I was in high school I was taught 'first thought-best thought' and sometimes that's true. But my writing always needs to be cleaned up. The editing process is what makes the writing clear, interesting, thought-provoking, and less likely to make you look stupid as an author. Because we all get to look stupid when a reader catches our mistakes:) At the same time, eventually we just have to call the book done and move on, because there are some things you will understand better when writing the next book.  In my not very expert opinion, I think anyone aspiring to be a writer should do what they can to learn to self-edit. If nothing else, it's a big time saver when you learn to catch your own mistakes. A professional editor can only take your book so far. The more self-editing you do, the more the editor can do for you, I think.

Self-editing is an established part of the writing process for a reason. It's a tool like any other that can be put to good use. The better you become at using it, the better a writer you become. There as a lot to be said for just getting words down on paper. Honestly, I think that's what I've learned the most from, but more tools sure come in handy.
 
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Simon Haynes

Re: Is editing really helping your book?
« Reply #20 on: September 29, 2019, 11:58:03 PM »
I hate going back over the same stuff again and again, so editing as I go, polishing each sentence as I write it, or immediately after, is the only way that works for me.

As for big picture stuff, I come up with a very basic plot outline, just a few sentences usually.  Then I write the first couple of chapters to get a feel for the characters, setting and tone.  Then I make notes on the next chapter and the 2-3 following it. Finally, I stick to the notes as I write those chapters.

That's enough to stay on track. I don't like to plot more than 2-3 chapters ahead because I need the flexibility and the sense of excitement and freedom I get from letting things develop organically.


(I should add that I do plot a bit further ahead the closer I get to the end of the novel.  Right now I've plotted the next eight chapters of this one, including the ending.)
 

Maggie Ann

Re: Is editing really helping your book?
« Reply #21 on: September 30, 2019, 12:54:43 AM »
Nothing wrong with first thought-best thought, but to me that means the scene in general. It's how I present that scene that may not be right the first time around.

           
 
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Maggie Ann

Re: Is editing really helping your book?
« Reply #22 on: September 30, 2019, 01:07:41 AM »
This is an excerpt from a review I just read. Not one of mine.

Quote
All-in-all, It's a pretty good yarn told well. But it could benefit from a good editor. You can call it nitpicking, but small errors can be a big problem when they distract the reader. Just a small sampling: hyphens where dashes should have been used, hyphens missing where they should have been, repeated, bulky use of past-perfect tense. More importantly wrong grammar in the mouth of a news editor, "Marriage wasn't what her and Randal wanted it to be." And, "I had barely lived there a year," seeming to mean she hovered between life and death? No, an editor would have made that silly sentence read, "I had lived there barely a year." Small stuff you wouldn't find in a Michael Connelly book, in other words. Writers in general need to make sure they have the help and support of a good editor -- not a copy reader but a real, honest-to-goodness editor!

FWIW

           
 
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dgcasey

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Re: Is editing really helping your book?
« Reply #23 on: September 30, 2019, 05:07:01 AM »
JKR said she'd like to rewrite the Harry Potter books. Even wildly successful authors second guess themselves because they (and we) are too close to the material. That's why we need fresh eyes on what we write.

I keep wondering if Stephen King would like to go back and write an actual ending to The Mist. Hell, even the movie came up with an ending. It was heartbreaking, but at least it was ten times better than what Steve wrote.
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Re: Is editing really helping your book?
« Reply #24 on: September 30, 2019, 05:12:57 AM »
I hate going back over the same stuff again and again, so editing as I go, polishing each sentence as I write it, or immediately after, is the only way that works for me.

I can't remember which big name author said it, but I read an interview once where the author said they edited as they went. What they did was, wrote their allotted words on day one and then stopped. The next day, before they started writing again, they would go back and edit what they wrote the day before. Once they were satisfied with the previous work, they would pick up where they left off. They continued this each day and when they were finished, they had a manuscript that was already edited and ready to be sent to their editor. It also had the happy side-effect of putting them back into the story when they reached the point of writing the new words.
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Re: Is editing really helping your book?
« Reply #25 on: September 30, 2019, 05:16:37 AM »
That's enough to stay on track. I don't like to plot more than 2-3 chapters ahead because I need the flexibility and the sense of excitement and freedom I get from letting things develop organically.

I don't think you could have kept Hal under control for more than 2-3 chapters at a time, so your way is probably for the best.  Grin
I will not forget one line of this, not one day. I will always remember when the Doctor was me.
"The Tales of Garlan" title="The Tales of Garlan"
"Into The Wishing Well" title="Into The Wishing Well"
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RiverRun

Re: Is editing really helping your book?
« Reply #26 on: September 30, 2019, 08:39:27 AM »
Nothing wrong with first thought-best thought, but to me that means the scene in general. It's how I present that scene that may not be right the first time around.




I think the teacher who said this was referring to word choice, but I've probably forgotten the context. Stephen King actually suggests something similar. He says, don't hunt around for a fancy word. Just use the word that comes to mind. I hunt around for fancy words sometimes, because I like it that way. But sometimes I default to this reasoning to keep my sanity.

I took writing classes in college where I was basically taught the opposite. Examine every single word to see if you can find a better one. I suppose there is room for all different schools of thought, but I think most writers are better off with a little bit of both.

I am a compulsive self-editor. I stop and edit a scene 3-4 times while writing it. Then I re-read it next time I sit down to write and tweak some more before writing the next. I frequently go back and re-read and tweak things. I wouldn't necessarily call this right or anything, but it's the only way I can write.

Some things I actively look for when editing:

Making nouns more specific. Changing soda to Pepsi or tree to Oak.

Making passive verbs active where it makes sense to do so. Changing she was walking, to, she walked. Also, more colorful verbs. She picked up the keys, would become, she grabbed the keys. She strolled, hurried, paced, etc.

Cutting out bland, unnecessary descriptors, like very, or,  He felt that, etc.

Sentence variety. If I've written too many short sentences or long sentences together? Boring to read. I try to mix them up.

I think when we are just getting ideas down on paper, we default to repetitive phrasing and weak language. Our mind is focused on getting down the story, the images, and all that good stuff and if you stopped to check every word you would lose what you are trying to say. You just have to write down whatever comes to mind first because you are busy working out the story. In a first draft, those types of things make perfect sense. It's afterward that we can correct those things and make the whole more readable and interesting and vivid in the reader's mind.

I spent many years believing that I had to refine and perfect my prose to make it worthwhile. A book on writing by Annie Dillard made the whole writing process sound so painful that I almost gave it up! So, I've had to think a lot about this for myself. Editing is good stuff, but it should be a servant and not a master. Like all writing advice, take what works for you and discard the rest.
 
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idontknowyet

Re: Is editing really helping your book?
« Reply #27 on: September 30, 2019, 10:22:57 AM »
Nothing wrong with first thought-best thought, but to me that means the scene in general. It's how I present that scene that may not be right the first time around.




I think the teacher who said this was referring to word choice, but I've probably forgotten the context. Stephen King actually suggests something similar. He says, don't hunt around for a fancy word. Just use the word that comes to mind. I hunt around for fancy words sometimes, because I like it that way. But sometimes I default to this reasoning to keep my sanity.

I took writing classes in college where I was basically taught the opposite. Examine every single word to see if you can find a better one. I suppose there is room for all different schools of thought, but I think most writers are better off with a little bit of both.

I am a compulsive self-editor. I stop and edit a scene 3-4 times while writing it. Then I re-read it next time I sit down to write and tweak some more before writing the next. I frequently go back and re-read and tweak things. I wouldn't necessarily call this right or anything, but it's the only way I can write.

Some things I actively look for when editing:

Making nouns more specific. Changing soda to Pepsi or tree to Oak.

Making passive verbs active where it makes sense to do so. Changing she was walking, to, she walked. Also, more colorful verbs. She picked up the keys, would become, she grabbed the keys. She strolled, hurried, paced, etc.

Cutting out bland, unnecessary descriptors, like very, or,  He felt that, etc.

Sentence variety. If I've written too many short sentences or long sentences together? Boring to read. I try to mix them up.

I think when we are just getting ideas down on paper, we default to repetitive phrasing and weak language. Our mind is focused on getting down the story, the images, and all that good stuff and if you stopped to check every word you would lose what you are trying to say. You just have to write down whatever comes to mind first because you are busy working out the story. In a first draft, those types of things make perfect sense. It's afterward that we can correct those things and make the whole more readable and interesting and vivid in the reader's mind.

I spent many years believing that I had to refine and perfect my prose to make it worthwhile. A book on writing by Annie Dillard made the whole writing process sound so painful that I almost gave it up! So, I've had to think a lot about this for myself. Editing is good stuff, but it should be a servant and not a master. Like all writing advice, take what works for you and discard the rest.

Wouldn't you be totally changing the flow of you story by making sentences have more variety? I thought that had to do with pacing. When I want a scene to feel like it's fast pace or action packed I used short sentences when I slow down the pacing I use longer descriptive sentences. Randomly changing them to have variety would muck up pacing wouldn't it?
 
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MCMLXXV

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Re: Is editing really helping your book?
« Reply #28 on: September 30, 2019, 03:02:12 PM »
I think when we are just getting ideas down on paper, we default to repetitive phrasing and weak language. Our mind is focused on getting down the story, the images, and all that good stuff and if you stopped to check every word you would lose what you are trying to say. You just have to write down whatever comes to mind first because you are busy working out the story. In a first draft, those types of things make perfect sense. It's afterward that we can correct those things and make the whole more readable and interesting and vivid in the reader's mind.

One of the best cases for revising and writing more than one draft I've read in a while.
 
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She-la-te-da

Re: Is editing really helping your book?
« Reply #29 on: September 30, 2019, 07:53:55 PM »
Quote
I think when we are just getting ideas down on paper, we default to repetitive phrasing and weak language.

"We" is including everyone, every single writer ever, and one thing I've learned is that we're all different. Broad strokes including everyone aren't always accurate. "We" might love chocolate, except "we" all don't.

I think for most people, some level of editing is probably worthwhile, at least in the beginning. The trouble comes when you get a bad editor, or one who wants to change the "voice" of the book in ways that don't involve better word choices, or punctuation, or sentence structure. I've heard horror stories...

New writers should most definitely have some competent outside person or persons going through the work. They should also be learning the basics of writing so they know if the advice they get is even half right. Experience should help avoid most issues, with a good percentage of it being caught by the authors themselves.

So, to answer the question:  Maybe.
I write various flavors of speculative fiction. This is my main pen name.

 
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VanessaC

Re: Is editing really helping your book?
« Reply #30 on: September 30, 2019, 10:07:43 PM »

I think when we are just getting ideas down on paper, we default to repetitive phrasing and weak language. Our mind is focused on getting down the story, the images, and all that good stuff and if you stopped to check every word you would lose what you are trying to say. You just have to write down whatever comes to mind first because you are busy working out the story. In a first draft, those types of things make perfect sense. It's afterward that we can correct those things and make the whole more readable and interesting and vivid in the reader's mind.

This is interesting - I don't know if it applies to everyone, but I've recently been experimenting with dictating the first draft, and then editing with my keyboard. What I have found, over and over, is that when I'm dictating my vocabulary is much more limited than when I'm typing.  Typing is slower, for me, so I can consider my word choices a little more. However, dictating is fast and to keep the flow, I just use the first, easiest, word that comes to mind. So, lots of repetition. Although dictation lets me get the first draft out of my head and onto the screen a lot faster than my clumsy typing, I now need to add an extra dimension to my editing to consider word choices, too, and have found myself reaching for a thesaurus more often.

But everyone is different, and I'm sure there are writers who can manage a far more polished first draft on dictation.
     



Genre: Fantasy
 
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Simon Haynes

Re: Is editing really helping your book?
« Reply #31 on: September 30, 2019, 10:31:12 PM »
I find that when typing too - plenty of time to edit and plan the next sentence while my fingers are bashing away on the keys. (And I mean bashing. I just realised I'm already wearing the caps off a near-new $200 keyboard.)
 
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RiverRun

Re: Is editing really helping your book?
« Reply #32 on: September 30, 2019, 11:52:32 PM »
Nothing wrong with first thought-best thought, but to me that means the scene in general. It's how I present that scene that may not be right the first time around.




I think the teacher who said this was referring to word choice, but I've probably forgotten the context. Stephen King actually suggests something similar. He says, don't hunt around for a fancy word. Just use the word that comes to mind. I hunt around for fancy words sometimes, because I like it that way. But sometimes I default to this reasoning to keep my sanity.

I took writing classes in college where I was basically taught the opposite. Examine every single word to see if you can find a better one. I suppose there is room for all different schools of thought, but I think most writers are better off with a little bit of both.

I am a compulsive self-editor. I stop and edit a scene 3-4 times while writing it. Then I re-read it next time I sit down to write and tweak some more before writing the next. I frequently go back and re-read and tweak things. I wouldn't necessarily call this right or anything, but it's the only way I can write.

Some things I actively look for when editing:

Making nouns more specific. Changing soda to Pepsi or tree to Oak.

Making passive verbs active where it makes sense to do so. Changing she was walking, to, she walked. Also, more colorful verbs. She picked up the keys, would become, she grabbed the keys. She strolled, hurried, paced, etc.

Cutting out bland, unnecessary descriptors, like very, or,  He felt that, etc.

Sentence variety. If I've written too many short sentences or long sentences together? Boring to read. I try to mix them up.

I think when we are just getting ideas down on paper, we default to repetitive phrasing and weak language. Our mind is focused on getting down the story, the images, and all that good stuff and if you stopped to check every word you would lose what you are trying to say. You just have to write down whatever comes to mind first because you are busy working out the story. In a first draft, those types of things make perfect sense. It's afterward that we can correct those things and make the whole more readable and interesting and vivid in the reader's mind.

I spent many years believing that I had to refine and perfect my prose to make it worthwhile. A book on writing by Annie Dillard made the whole writing process sound so painful that I almost gave it up! So, I've had to think a lot about this for myself. Editing is good stuff, but it should be a servant and not a master. Like all writing advice, take what works for you and discard the rest.

Wouldn't you be totally changing the flow of you story by making sentences have more variety? I thought that had to do with pacing. When I want a scene to feel like it's fast pace or action packed I used short sentences when I slow down the pacing I use longer descriptive sentences. Randomly changing them to have variety would muck up pacing wouldn't it?

That's an interesting question. I hadn't thought about it like that. I try to do what you described also, but I also try to vary things. I descriptive passage packed with only looong sentences can be a turn-off. A tense, action-packed scene can sometimes start to sound like Dick and Jane in its simplicity. For me personally, a mix of both keeps things more interesting. If I had more time it would be fun to look up examples in books, but I haven't got the time. Still, I think if you crack open a successful novel on the first page you will find a nice mix of different length sentences, that start and end in different ways. It's just another tool you can use. It's not a law or anything.

Quote
I think when we are just getting ideas down on paper, we default to repetitive phrasing and weak language.

"We" is including everyone, every single writer ever, and one thing I've learned is that we're all different. Broad strokes including everyone aren't always accurate. "We" might love chocolate, except "we" all don't.

I think for most people, some level of editing is probably worthwhile, at least in the beginning. The trouble comes when you get a bad editor, or one who wants to change the "voice" of the book in ways that don't involve better word choices, or punctuation, or sentence structure. I've heard horror stories...

New writers should most definitely have some competent outside person or persons going through the work. They should also be learning the basics of writing so they know if the advice they get is even half right. Experience should help avoid most issues, with a good percentage of it being caught by the authors themselves.

So, to answer the question:  Maybe.

Yes, I should have said "I" since it's from my own experience that got this idea. I do find that there are a lot of things I had to edit out of my first efforts that I now adjust for automatically while writing the first draft. I imagine those of you who have written numerous novels need less and less editing afterward:) That's why I think learning to self-edit actually saves time in the long run. People like Simon who have written so many books probably don't need a lot fine-tuning after the fact. I think the more one learns to self-edit, the more one can fix things the first time around instead of in later drafts. But you're absolutely right, YMMV.

And I'm not talking about professional editors at all. I assumed the OP was talking about self-editing. I'm not trying to tell anyway the right way, just talking over things that have helped me.
 
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RiverRun

Re: Is editing really helping your book?
« Reply #33 on: September 30, 2019, 11:55:09 PM »

I think when we are just getting ideas down on paper, we default to repetitive phrasing and weak language. Our mind is focused on getting down the story, the images, and all that good stuff and if you stopped to check every word you would lose what you are trying to say. You just have to write down whatever comes to mind first because you are busy working out the story. In a first draft, those types of things make perfect sense. It's afterward that we can correct those things and make the whole more readable and interesting and vivid in the reader's mind.

This is interesting - I don't know if it applies to everyone, but I've recently been experimenting with dictating the first draft, and then editing with my keyboard. What I have found, over and over, is that when I'm dictating my vocabulary is much more limited than when I'm typing.  Typing is slower, for me, so I can consider my word choices a little more. However, dictating is fast and to keep the flow, I just use the first, easiest, word that comes to mind. So, lots of repetition. Although dictation lets me get the first draft out of my head and onto the screen a lot faster than my clumsy typing, I now need to add an extra dimension to my editing to consider word choices, too, and have found myself reaching for a thesaurus more often.

But everyone is different, and I'm sure there are writers who can manage a far more polished first draft on dictation.

I have a copy of Dragon dictation on my shelf that I used once. :( Maybe it will work for me someday, but boy is it different. From what I've read, a lot of things come out differently when speaking instead of typing.
 
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MCMLXXV

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Re: Is editing really helping your book?
« Reply #34 on: October 01, 2019, 03:10:38 AM »
I think when we are just getting ideas down on paper, we default to repetitive phrasing and weak language. Our mind is focused on getting down the story, the images, and all that good stuff and if you stopped to check every word you would lose what you are trying to say. You just have to write down whatever comes to mind first because you are busy working out the story.

You know, in thinking about this further, you've not only set out a good case for why revision is important, but also READING.

I'm thinking the more well-read I am - the more exposed I am to other turns of phrase, strong verbiage, varied prose, enhanced vocabulary, etc - the better the chance that when I'm rifling through a first draft, my personal 'grab bag' of phrases and language will be that much more upgraded than if I hadn't been as well-read.
 
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Kyra Halland

Re: Is editing really helping your book?
« Reply #35 on: October 01, 2019, 11:03:46 AM »
In my case, yes. The way my process is, I like to describe it as if I was painting a picture, it's like starting out with a rough sketch (that's my first draft, after I've already outlined). Then I step back and look at the whole and go this needs to go over there, that doesn't work here, I need something over here. Then I work in revision and editing passes, fixing the composition, adding color, depth, shading, details. Places where in my first draft I skimmed over stuff that needs to be filled out. I get insights into character, story, and theme with each pass and add those. Fixing my over-long, complicated sentences and long-running paragraphs (this is how the words naturally come out of my brain, but it does not read well). And sometimes I'm not really sure of something I'm trying to get at and I have to circle the drain a few times before I can home in on exactly what I want to say. So maybe (often? sometimes?) my first ideas are my best ideas, but my first expression of them is not, even if I know what I'm trying to say, which a lot of times I don't.


Strong women, honorable men, worlds of magic

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Genres: Epic Romantic Fantasy; Western Fantasy
 
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PJ Post

Re: Is editing really helping your book?
« Reply #36 on: October 02, 2019, 08:03:55 AM »
The stinky elephant in the room, of course, is that while editing will definitely help the literary merits of your book (it'll be more entertaining), that extra work won't necessarily translate into sales. So...

 :shrug
 
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The Bass Bagwhan

Re: Is editing really helping your book?
« Reply #37 on: October 03, 2019, 09:52:51 AM »
As an editor of all flavours as well as a writer I'll point out that you need, under some circumstances, to empower an editor to provide broad structural or story-related input if you want it. Yes, some forms of editing like "structural", "developmental" or as we call it, "line" editing (as you know, interpretations of these differ) are by default an invitation for the editor to criticise just about anything. But if you only ask for a copy edit, or certainly a proofread, and you'd still welcome criticism on the manuscipt as a whole, you need to make that clear.
It's not case of "you didn't pay for it". It's about assuming that such aspects of the manuscript have already been well-covered by someone — usually the author, but you can't assume that either. Editors don't want to inadvertently tread on one another's toes or criticise someone else's work (well, I don't anyway).
I guess I'm just saying that discuss with any editor what you're expecting from them.
As for that stinky elephant in the room, yes it's true. As a writer you need to satisfy yourself above anyone else. If you're comfortable publishing poor-standard writing because you decide it doesn't really matter, that's your call. It's worth asking, do you really know how bad it is? If you're happy with the mistakes you can see, how many are you missing? Two or three 2-star grumpy but considered reviews that criticise the editing quality can far outweigh a hundred generic "OMG, this book was awesome!" reviews.
Time for breakfast ...
 
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quinning

Re: Is editing really helping your book?
« Reply #38 on: October 03, 2019, 11:00:14 AM »
I hate going back over the same stuff again and again, so editing as I go, polishing each sentence as I write it, or immediately after, is the only way that works for me.

I can't remember which big name author said it, but I read an interview once where the author said they edited as they went. What they did was, wrote their allotted words on day one and then stopped. The next day, before they started writing again, they would go back and edit what they wrote the day before. Once they were satisfied with the previous work, they would pick up where they left off. They continued this each day and when they were finished, they had a manuscript that was already edited and ready to be sent to their editor. It also had the happy side-effect of putting them back into the story when they reached the point of writing the new words.

That’s Wayne Stinnett’s 5000 words per week publishing plan. I use this as well, though I still find a solid editing pass at the end is HIGHLY necessary. Mainly because I overuse passive voice and the word just WAY TOO MUCH.
 
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Vijaya

Re: Is editing really helping your book?
« Reply #39 on: October 03, 2019, 12:08:25 PM »
I'm a good self-editor but I still need a second or third set of eyes to make my stories better. It's rare for me to write the best thing first and when it happens, I thank God and ask for more of those cases. Aaahhhh!


Author of over 100 books and magazine pieces, primarily for children
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Maggie Ann

Re: Is editing really helping your book?
« Reply #40 on: October 03, 2019, 12:09:23 PM »
I hate going back over the same stuff again and again, so editing as I go, polishing each sentence as I write it, or immediately after, is the only way that works for me.

I can't remember which big name author said it, but I read an interview once where the author said they edited as they went. What they did was, wrote their allotted words on day one and then stopped. The next day, before they started writing again, they would go back and edit what they wrote the day before. Once they were satisfied with the previous work, they would pick up where they left off. They continued this each day and when they were finished, they had a manuscript that was already edited and ready to be sent to their editor. It also had the happy side-effect of putting them back into the story when they reached the point of writing the new words.

That’s Wayne Stinnett’s 5000 words per week publishing plan. I use this as well, though I still find a solid editing pass at the end is HIGHLY necessary. Mainly because I overuse passive voice and the word just WAY TOO MUCH.

Just is also my downfall. Also a bit. I think I get that one from my grandson because every time I ask him to do something, he says, "In a bit."

           
 
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dgcasey

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Re: Is editing really helping your book?
« Reply #41 on: October 03, 2019, 04:10:50 PM »
That’s Wayne Stinnett’s 5000 words per week publishing plan. I use this as well, though I still find a solid editing pass at the end is HIGHLY necessary. Mainly because I overuse passive voice and the word just WAY TOO MUCH.

Oh yeah, definitely. I also do a final pass and usually one with the computer reading the novel to me. Can you spend too much time editing? Sure, but this would be an absolute minimum for me.
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The Bass Bagwhan

Re: Is editing really helping your book?
« Reply #42 on: October 03, 2019, 04:16:27 PM »
I'm waging a personal vendetta against "but". Try avoiding that sentence structure of, "Blah, blah, blah, but he did blah blah blah..."

It's a but disease!
 
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Simon Haynes

Re: Is editing really helping your book?
« Reply #43 on: October 03, 2019, 06:58:40 PM »
turned, glanced, muttered, suddenly, looked, then ... I overuse them all, but sometimes it's a struggle to come up with a different beat in dialogue.

(My writing software has a feature to locate them, but not suggest something cool and better.)
 
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VanessaC

Re: Is editing really helping your book?
« Reply #44 on: October 03, 2019, 08:36:55 PM »
I'm waging a personal vendetta against "but". Try avoiding that sentence structure of, "Blah, blah, blah, but he did blah blah blah..."

It's a but disease!

Yep - I seem to use "but" every second sentence in a first draft ...

And when I was dictating, I kept finding that everything was "odd" - not strange, or unusual, or anything else, but "odd".

But, hey, that's what editing is for, right?!  Grin
     



Genre: Fantasy
 
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RiverRun

Re: Is editing really helping your book?
« Reply #45 on: October 03, 2019, 08:40:49 PM »
The stinky elephant in the room, of course, is that while editing will definitely help the literary merits of your book (it'll be more entertaining), that extra work won't necessarily translate into sales. So...

 :shrug

I would think that no one aspect of writing or publishing would make one's book a financial success. Focusing on just plot, or just voice, or just advertising would not make a successful novel either, at least I wouldn't think so. It would take a little bit of everything, wouldn't it?

(How did the word bit get in there? I guess I do that too:)
 
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PJ Post

Re: Is editing really helping your book?
« Reply #46 on: October 03, 2019, 11:10:07 PM »
Pro tip for over-used words:

Don't reach for the thesaurus or Find and Replace - rewrite the entire passage, meaning phrase, sentence or paragraph, as necessary. Often, if it's a crutch word, it's nested within crutch phrasing. Rewriting adds sentence variety, as well as helps break the dependence. You'll also be able to tell if the whole thought was extraneous enough to be deleted altogether.

___

It would take a little bit of everything, wouldn't it?

Yep. And all of that everything works differently depending on the brand.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2019, 11:18:04 PM by PJ Post »
 
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Maggie Ann

Re: Is editing really helping your book?
« Reply #47 on: October 03, 2019, 11:49:44 PM »
Pro tip for over-used words:

Don't reach for the thesaurus or Find and Replace - rewrite the entire passage, meaning phrase, sentence or paragraph, as necessary. Often, if it's a crutch word, it's nested within crutch phrasing. Rewriting adds sentence variety, as well as helps break the dependence. You'll also be able to tell if the whole thought was extraneous enough to be deleted altogether.

___

It would take a little bit of everything, wouldn't it?

Yep. And all of that everything works differently depending on the brand.

When I'm struggling to find the right word, I know the sentence/paragraph isn't working and I rewrite it.
           
 
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Post-Crisis D

Re: Is editing really helping your book?
« Reply #48 on: October 04, 2019, 02:20:03 AM »
turned, glanced, muttered, suddenly, looked, then ... I overuse them all, but sometimes it's a struggle to come up with a different beat in dialogue.

In dialogue, I don't worry about characters overusing words.  In real life, people tend to use to same small number of words, so no problem there.  I always worry about my characters sounding too much alike.  But, then again, I know I've read books where the author didn't use dialogue tags often enough and I end up backtracking to try to figure out which character is saying what, so I guess it's not always easy to give characters each a unique voice.

In actual prose, yeah, I use words like turned and looked far too often for my liking.  Instead of look, a character might spy, spot, glance, peer, etc. but sometimes, perhaps most of the time, they are looking.  And if you try to substitute words for looking, it can feel forced.  And it can't be a matter of rewriting because if a character is looking at something, but not examining it or studying it, nor glaring at it, but just looking at it, there's only so many ways you can say that they are looking at something unless you go wild with purple prose and potentially throw off the pacing or mood or whatever.

And, probably, more than likely, writers are the only ones paying attention to such things because, hopefully, readers are so drawn into the story that they are not noticing that a character has been looking, looking, looking for the past half dozen paragraphs but are instead wondering and anticipating what is going to happen next.
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PJ Post

Re: Is editing really helping your book?
« Reply #49 on: October 04, 2019, 03:03:56 AM »
Agree about dialogue. It's important to stick to the character's vocabulary and way of speaking. Most of us use very few words in our day to day conversations.

As for the regular prose, yeah, sometimes characters need to look at stuff. But other times, they can be made aware without the risk of the prose turning into stage direction, especially with first person. It takes more work (time), but we can usually accomplish this without disrupting pacing. And when we just can't - say they looked. I've found that if I can remove most of my crutch words and phrases, including stage direction, then the few occurrences that remain don't matter so much.
 
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