Author Topic: D2D or Ingram for publishing your paperbacks wide  (Read 2350 times)

alhawke

D2D or Ingram for publishing your paperbacks wide
« on: February 19, 2022, 03:00:48 AM »
Okay, so I have a love/hate relationship with Ingram. They help publish my books to many retailers outside of Amazon's market and I'm very grateful for that (Barnes and Noble, Walmart, Target, etc). They used to create a better paperback product than Amazon--I'm no longer so sure. But now their prices are going up. And everytime I publish--which is averaging every three months--I have to pay a lot of money just to publish my paperback through them ($60). I publish all my books on Amazon because that's free and it ensures my book is available in their marketplace. But Amazon's wide distribution is too limited.

So ... have any of you switched to D2D? I know we've talked about it here, but I don't know anyone speaking of benefits or disadvantages of wide distribution with D2D. I'm still interested in getting my books on B&N and Walmart's virtual store (the actual store, I can only dream). How complete is D2D's wide distribution? Does anyone know?

If I stay with Ingram, I'll probably join Alli for their discounts. But $60 per paperback with limited sales through Ingram is really becoming questionably useful to me.
 

Lynn

Re: D2D or Ingram for publishing your paperbacks wide
« Reply #1 on: February 19, 2022, 04:44:27 AM »
My latest paperback is available at Walmart.com and it is sold through Amazon's expanded distribution. That's the only place I've done paperbacks.  "Sold and shipped by Walmart.com".

It is *not* on BN though, so I'm going to start putting up a version for BN directly, since they do print.

I've signed up for the D2D print beta but I'm not in yet.
Don't rush me.
 
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alhawke

Re: D2D or Ingram for publishing your paperbacks wide
« Reply #2 on: February 19, 2022, 05:35:43 AM »
I've signed up for the D2D print beta but I'm not in yet.
I'd love to know your experience with it if you use them later. Interesting that Walmart took your book. B&N is big and it'd be nice to be in there as well for future books. I have sold some paperbacks at B&N through Ingram.
 

Lynn

Re: D2D or Ingram for publishing your paperbacks wide
« Reply #3 on: February 19, 2022, 05:59:58 AM »
My older paperbacks that were listed with CreateSpace are still showing on BN. It's only the new ones that I made after CreateSpace became KDP Print that BN doesn't show as available in paperback. Now, whether the old ones are actually there, I have no idea.

But I have made expanded distribution sales recently. I just have no idea where they're actually originating from.
Don't rush me.
 
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djmills

Re: D2D or Ingram for publishing your paperbacks wide
« Reply #4 on: February 19, 2022, 06:04:51 AM »
I pulled all my eBook and print off Amazon when they demanded my phone number and some double authenticity login.

I use D2D for print distributed everywhere, and eBooks only to get back on Amazon. And use Smashwords for distributing eBooks everywhere else.

I choose to do my own print layout and upload both an interior.pdf and cover.pdf file.

However, on D2D you can also upload an eBook first. Then when that upload is complete you can select print and D2D will automate most of the print layout from the eBook cover and interior. You can do some minor changes to text layout on the cover, and can select a template layout and add the front and back matter text in the print before you approve it.

I have no idea of the quality of my print books from D2D because they are far too expensive for me to get author copies here in Australia (over A$100.00 per copy). I may purchase a full price copy of all my books from Book Depository in England and get free shipping to Australia, which is how I purchase most print books. 

There is no fees and the ISBN numbers are also free. D2D has a lot less hassles then via Amazon Print.


 
Diane J Cornwell - Fiction
D J Mills - Non Fiction
Tift Publishing
Amazon
 
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alhawke

Re: D2D or Ingram for publishing your paperbacks wide
« Reply #5 on: February 19, 2022, 06:12:27 AM »
I use D2D for print distributed everywhere, and eBooks only to get back on Amazon. And use Smashwords for distributing eBooks everywhere else.
Did D2D expanded manage to sell your paperback on B&N? For me, B&N and Amazon are my greatest sellers of print books.
 

djmills

Re: D2D or Ingram for publishing your paperbacks wide
« Reply #6 on: February 19, 2022, 06:34:59 AM »
The reports don't say who the retailer is, but lists wholesale so I know it sold through a retailer.

Just lists whether D2D Print or or D2D Print Classic and which country, eg: United States of America, Canada, United Kingdom.

I could go through last few years reports later and let you know. I remember seeing one sold via Ingram either last year or earlier than that.
Diane J Cornwell - Fiction
D J Mills - Non Fiction
Tift Publishing
Amazon
 
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alhawke

Re: D2D or Ingram for publishing your paperbacks wide
« Reply #7 on: February 19, 2022, 07:19:22 AM »
Sounds like it's hard to track like Ingram. I just meant if it says your book is on sale in B&N as a paperback (via D2D). Lynn said above that some of her paperbacks weren't distributed through Amazon wide distribution to B&N.
 

djmills

Re: D2D or Ingram for publishing your paperbacks wide
« Reply #8 on: February 19, 2022, 09:23:06 AM »
I remember one sale via Ingram POD. Which is what I wanted, selling via Ingram POD as well as Amazon POD.

I went onto B&N site and found some of my print books listed. I even found one listed that I pulled from Amazon and have not put it back up via D2D yet. Checked and it said out of stock. :-)

I also found my non-fiction print book on B&N. So working OK. :-)

I could try and purchase one of my books through B&N in Australia and see what happens. :-)

Sorry I can't help you more.
Diane J Cornwell - Fiction
D J Mills - Non Fiction
Tift Publishing
Amazon
 
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RPatton

Re: D2D or Ingram for publishing your paperbacks wide
« Reply #9 on: February 19, 2022, 09:53:52 AM »
Allhawke, consider joining ALLi. As a member you receive 5 codes/month for Ingram. (Plus, there are a lot of other benefits.) It's definitely worth the membership cost. With three books published through Ingram this month, I more than covered the cost of the membership.

I will say that the member "forum" is facebook and for those who don't like facebook, it's a bit of a downer because I would probably be all over them if they set up an actual forum or even "social network" on their own site. (Honestly, I think they would have a perfect set up for a private community like Mighty Network).
 
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alhawke

Re: D2D or Ingram for publishing your paperbacks wide
« Reply #10 on: February 19, 2022, 12:15:32 PM »
Allhawke, consider joining ALLi. As a member you receive 5 codes/month for Ingram.
I'm definitely considering it. I'm just beginning to wonder if Ingram itself is worth it. I like D2D's ebook interface and use them for Apple.
If I continue with Ingram wide, I'll definitely join ALLi. But there are price increases on the horizon for Ingram, sales information and software issues I've encountered, and ... the list goes on.

BTW, while I'm on this topic, how easy is it to format a cover for D2D? Does D2D's paperback service use the same cover formatting as Amazon? Or Ingram? It'd be nice, since I use cover artists and this costs extra too (depending on the artist), to have an interface that takes the same software pdf as Amazon.
 

LilyBLily

Re: D2D or Ingram for publishing your paperbacks wide
« Reply #11 on: February 19, 2022, 01:52:33 PM »
Is D2D doing returns? Ingram offers returns, which I don't allow but which would, if you did, encourage many bookstores to stock it since they can return your book for full credit. The problem is with a trade paperback the book can easily get shopworn and become unsaleable and only fit for a bargain bin, so you'd take a loss on some returns. Ingram also pushes the long discount, which last time I heard was a 55% discount to bookstores. You'd have to price high to make a profit on that and to be attractive to the store to make it a profit, too. Not impossible, and if your heart is set on getting your books into physical stores, why not? 
 
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alhawke

Re: D2D or Ingram for publishing your paperbacks wide
« Reply #12 on: February 19, 2022, 02:10:58 PM »
I allow returns and "destroy" for Ingram. I haven't seen much of returns but I don't sell a lot of Ingram books, mainly Zon.

The % feature is rather annoying. I'm sure it's a carry over from classic paperback trad publishing. I've played with it but it remains, to me, confusing. It also can lead to the really irritating price drop phenomena where Amazon will drop the paperback below ebook price. This will then drop your ebook price. Because of this, wheras I used to play around with low prices on Ingram, I tend to price high on Ingram to not affect Amazon. Which then leads to less Ingram sales.  :dizzy

I think D2D acts more like Amazon and doesn't do the % thing, but I'm not sure.
 

TimothyEllis

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Re: D2D or Ingram for publishing your paperbacks wide
« Reply #13 on: February 19, 2022, 07:40:36 PM »
Is D2D doing returns?

D2D doesn't sell books themselves. Yet.

They just put them with all the sites that do, as specified by their printer.

The printer presumably has a returns policy, as do the sites.
Genres: Space Opera/Fantasy/Cyberpunk, with elements of LitRPG and GameLit, with a touch of the Supernatural. Also Spiritual and Games.



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RPatton

Re: D2D or Ingram for publishing your paperbacks wide
« Reply #14 on: February 20, 2022, 02:56:10 AM »
I allow returns and "destroy" for Ingram. I haven't seen much of returns but I don't sell a lot of Ingram books, mainly Zon.

The % feature is rather annoying. I'm sure it's a carry over from classic paperback trad publishing. I've played with it but it remains, to me, confusing. It also can lead to the really irritating price drop phenomena where Amazon will drop the paperback below ebook price. This will then drop your ebook price. Because of this, wheras I used to play around with low prices on Ingram, I tend to price high on Ingram to not affect Amazon. Which then leads to less Ingram sales.  :dizzy

I think D2D acts more like Amazon and doesn't do the % thing, but I'm not sure.


If you want to use D2D or Amazon because it's less of a hassle, that's a fair argument and I don't think anyone would say anything. But the arguments you've presented for not using Ingram aren't really all that sound and are likely just some bad information that's been passed on for so long it's turned to fact.

Amazon does the discount for extended distribution. You just don't see it, it's built in. Create Space better explained this discount, but it's still there with Amazon, just at a fixed rate and slightly hidden. At least at Ingram, you can control for the discount.

The discount isn't a carry-over from traditional publishing, it's the wholesale price. A physical bookstore needs to make a profit on the books, you need to have a wholesale price they can buy it at to sell it at retail. Some books can handle a low discount. I have a book series that will sell no matter what and I price it right at the market value so it's competitive with the closest comp. If the store is guaranteed to sell them in X days, they'll take the lower discount, especially after the first customer asks for any book in the series. I can easily pop the 30-35% discount on that series.

I have other series that can't support the low discount because they're just more like all the others out there. So, I push up to the 40-45% discount, but lift my retail price by a dollar. My goal for a print book is about $3.50, anything higher is golden, but I try to hit the $3.50.

As for the cost of printing going up, well that's a world-wide issue. It's not Ingram being greedy (I believe Amazon's printing prices went up too). The cost of paper has skyrocketed, Ingram likely held on to the price for as long as they could, but have been open about the price increases, explained exactly why the increase is happening and have even gone so far as to put the increased cost to print into the calculator way ahead of the actual increase so people could price books accordingly (also meant they got a bigger profit if they paid attention to their invoices.)

As for quality, Ingram still wins, hands down. The books from Amazon always seem to struggle to last very long or always have some printing error, either missed pages, badly trimmed (and this isn't about margins, this is about an angled page), and unreliable glue on the spine. I'm just as likely to get an off printed book as I am to get a decently printed book. The book series that supports low discounts also has books that are frequently handled and have to sustain pencil and eraser marks. Because of the trim size, I can't use Amazon at all so I can't do a direct comparison, but for as heavy use as those books get, they hold up remarkably well. Two years on for one book that has been handled almost every day and had the spine rolled with the front cover flipped back, and it is no worse for the wear. A few crinkles on the cover in the spine, but overall, it's as good as the traditionally published book that's it's closest comp. I honestly can't say the same for any of the books that came from Amazon. I would have been to say the same for the books that came from Createspace though.

That said, I am fairly certain that for extended distribution everyone uses Ingram. THey just farm it out, through them. So whether you go through Amazon, BN, or D2D, if you distribute to anywhere except the main store, your books will be printed through Ingram and whoever you distribute with will take a bigger chunk than if you go direct. It's why so many suggest you go direct when you can print, and use Ingram for eveywhere else.
 
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alhawke

Re: D2D or Ingram for publishing your paperbacks wide
« Reply #15 on: February 20, 2022, 03:18:58 AM »
Amazon does the discount for extended distribution. You just don't see it, it's built in.

As for the cost of printing going up, well that's a world-wide issue. It's not Ingram being greedy (I believe Amazon's printing prices went up too). The cost of paper has skyrocketed, Ingram likely held on to the price for as long as they could, but have been open about the price increases, explained exactly why the increase is happening and have even gone so far as to put the increased cost to print into the calculator way ahead of the actual increase so people could price books accordingly (also meant they got a bigger profit if they paid attention to their invoices.)

As for quality, Ingram still wins, hands down.
I really appreciate all these points. Thank you. I surely don't mean to spread misinformation, I'm just trying to make heads or tails of the inner workings of paperback publishing--something I find confusing no matter how much research I do. I'll make my decision soon regarding which vendor with my upcoming paperback release.
 

RPatton

Re: D2D or Ingram for publishing your paperbacks wide
« Reply #16 on: February 20, 2022, 07:45:49 AM »
Amazon does the discount for extended distribution. You just don't see it, it's built in.

As for the cost of printing going up, well that's a world-wide issue. It's not Ingram being greedy (I believe Amazon's printing prices went up too). The cost of paper has skyrocketed, Ingram likely held on to the price for as long as they could, but have been open about the price increases, explained exactly why the increase is happening and have even gone so far as to put the increased cost to print into the calculator way ahead of the actual increase so people could price books accordingly (also meant they got a bigger profit if they paid attention to their invoices.)

As for quality, Ingram still wins, hands down.
I really appreciate all these points. Thank you. I surely don't mean to spread misinformation, I'm just trying to make heads or tails of the inner workings of paperback publishing--something I find confusing no matter how much research I do. I'll make my decision soon regarding which vendor with my upcoming paperback release.

I didn't think you were spreading outdated or inaccurate information (misinformation is the deliberate and intentional dissemination of information). Honestly, there are so many myths that have become truths and legends that have turned into fact that at this point, it's impossible not to unknowingly share something that just isn't true. Look at the D2D Smashwords thread and there's a tangent about D2D not allowing erotica (they do). Look at any of the threads about closed accounts and there are lots of theories being thrown around as fact because it furthers someone's narrative.

For a long time, people complained about Ingram because it was complex. Except it was complex because it assumed everyone using their platform had an understanding and didn't need handholding. With KDP Print and D2D and to a lesser extent, BN Print, publishing a print version has become super simple and you don't have to have an understanding about print or publishing to print. Ingrams been making moves towards that market, but still require to have a reasonably formatted interior and exterior that meets their standards. I have noticed that they aren't as much of a stickler about TAC anymore, which is probably because they can apply when they apply their color profile. (I would love to know what Ingram's color profile is, would make everything soooo much easier.)

Amazon has completely streamlined things enough for people to not want to go with Ingram despite that their expanded distribution has to be through Ingram since that's how stores buy the books. In fact, before KDP Print took over, I am pretty sure that when CreateSpace had a backlog, they outsourced to Ingram and KDP Print was doing the same in beginning.

So Ingram gets a bad rap for essentially putting up a gate, but overall, I've had a much better experience with Ingram. It has a super steep learning curve associated with it, but once you get the basics down, it's not nearly as complex as you might have initially thought and you start to appreciate some of the details you're able to control for.
 
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Marti Talbott

Re: D2D or Ingram for publishing your paperbacks wide
« Reply #17 on: February 20, 2022, 01:22:35 PM »
Okay, so I have a love/hate relationship with Ingram. They help publish my books to many retailers outside of Amazon's market and I'm very grateful for that (Barnes and Noble, Walmart, Target, etc). They used to create a better paperback product than Amazon--I'm no longer so sure. But now their prices are going up. And everytime I publish--which is averaging every three months--I have to pay a lot of money just to publish my paperback through them ($60). I publish all my books on Amazon because that's free and it ensures my book is available in their marketplace. But Amazon's wide distribution is too limited.

So ... have any of you switched to D2D? I know we've talked about it here, but I don't know anyone speaking of benefits or disadvantages of wide distribution with D2D. I'm still interested in getting my books on B&N and Walmart's virtual store (the actual store, I can only dream). How complete is D2D's wide distribution? Does anyone know?

If I stay with Ingram, I'll probably join Alli for their discounts. But $60 per paperback with limited sales through Ingram is really becoming questionably useful to me.

I just checked and my paperbacks are available on Google distributed through D2D. The Viking ISBN 9781393913955 is on B&N under D2D distributor. Here's the catch. Amazon's ISBN is 9781393913955 too.  At D2d I get  $1.25 on Amazon, I get $1.13 (this book sells for $10.99)
Read The Swindler, a historical romance available at:
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https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08QG5K23
 
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RPatton

Re: D2D or Ingram for publishing your paperbacks wide
« Reply #18 on: February 20, 2022, 03:09:23 PM »
Something else to keep in mind when going through Amazon for expanded distribution, they take their cut prior to the discount. The break down is List Price, less their cut, less discount, less cost of printing, then give you the rest.

For D2D to have slightly different numbers, either they haven't adjusted their cost of printing yet (which they will have to do on the 8th since that's when Ingram says it's going up) or their order of operations is different and they take their cut out later on, probably after the cost of printing. My guess is D2D's order of operations is List price, discount, cost of printing, they take their cut, you get the rest.

For Ingram, it's list price, discount, cost of printing, and you get the rest. Their cut comes from cost of printing (and set up assuming you don't use a code). Since Ingram doesn't actually take a cut, they will always have a higher publisher compensation.
 
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Wonder

Re: D2D or Ingram for publishing your paperbacks wide
« Reply #19 on: August 13, 2022, 07:26:35 AM »
Is D2D doing returns? Ingram offers returns, which I don't allow but which would, if you did, encourage many bookstores to stock it since they can return your book for full credit. The problem is with a trade paperback the book can easily get shopworn and become unsaleable and only fit for a bargain bin, so you'd take a loss on some returns. Ingram also pushes the long discount, which last time I heard was a 55% discount to bookstores. You'd have to price high to make a profit on that and to be attractive to the store to make it a profit, too. Not impossible, and if your heart is set on getting your books into physical stores, why not?

I know this is an old thread but I'm chiming in to say if you distribute to Ingram through D2D they do *not* allow returns, so returns isn't something you need to worry about. I had the same question, so I got in touch with them.
 
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writeway

Re: D2D or Ingram for publishing your paperbacks wide
« Reply #20 on: September 27, 2022, 03:33:56 PM »
I'd marry D2D Print if I could.  :icon_mrgreen:
 
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LilyBLily

Re: D2D or Ingram for publishing your paperbacks wide
« Reply #21 on: September 27, 2022, 10:23:43 PM »
 

LilyBLily

Re: D2D or Ingram for publishing your paperbacks wide
« Reply #22 on: March 15, 2023, 12:32:38 PM »
Has anybody done D2D print?

I decided to put a novella through the process, and all was smooth until I got to the pricing and the ISBN warning. The ISBN warning is that if I use my own ISBN, Amazon will not let me use it to publish through KDP. The pricing brought up two issues at once. One is an automatic price of $5.99, with a $0.26 royalty. That's a 4.3% royalty. The price is easily changed to $9.99, but from the D2D wording, this is another version of Amazon's (horrible) extended distribution. Why would anybody consent to that?

What am I misunderstanding here?
 

TimothyEllis

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Re: D2D or Ingram for publishing your paperbacks wide
« Reply #23 on: March 15, 2023, 12:39:02 PM »
Has anybody done D2D print?

I decided to put a novella through the process, and all was smooth until I got to the pricing and the ISBN warning. The ISBN warning is that if I use my own ISBN, Amazon will not let me use it to publish through KDP. The pricing brought up two issues at once. One is an automatic price of $5.99, with a $0.26 royalty. That's a 4.3% royalty. The price is easily changed to $9.99, but from the D2D wording, this is another version of Amazon's (horrible) extended distribution. Why would anybody consent to that?

What am I misunderstanding here?

Their default pricing is just weird. And it gets worse when you look at the other countries' pricing as well.

You have to click into the full pricing popup, and change the US price to something much more appropriate. Then pay attention to the other countries' prices.

Be warned though, if you back out of any page after setting the price, the prices all default back again. So double check your pricing before you submit it.

I don't know who thought the way they default price was a good idea, but whoever it is shouldn't be doing that job.

My other comment is because they use Ingram for printing, the entire price structure is Trad based.

I've not done paperbacks through them because the return is pathetic compared to Amazon. And to not even match Amazon's royalty, the Australian price becomes totally ridiculous.
Genres: Space Opera/Fantasy/Cyberpunk, with elements of LitRPG and GameLit, with a touch of the Supernatural. Also Spiritual and Games.



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alhawke

Re: D2D or Ingram for publishing your paperbacks wide
« Reply #24 on: March 15, 2023, 01:26:12 PM »
The ISBN warning is that if I use my own ISBN, Amazon will not let me use it to publish through KDP.
That doesn't make any sense to me. I used to go with Ingram only with my own ISBN (now I do both) and Amazon took the book. And they distribute their books through Ingram???

As far as pricing, I chose not to sell one of my novellas outside of Amazon. The reason was the same as yours. I found that the royalty wasn't worth it for either Amazon expanded distribution or Ingram. So I only sell that paperback direct via Amazon at $5.99.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2023, 01:29:58 PM by alhawke »
 

TimothyEllis

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Re: D2D or Ingram for publishing your paperbacks wide
« Reply #25 on: March 15, 2023, 01:38:25 PM »
The ISBN warning is that if I use my own ISBN, Amazon will not let me use it to publish through KDP.
That doesn't make any sense to me. I used to go with Ingram only with my own ISBN (now I do both) and Amazon took the book. And they distribute their books through Ingram???

D2D will publish your book to Amazon, and in fact, you can't stop that. It's an Ingram thing. The paperback distribution list is fixed, where the eBook list is not.

So if you publish on D2D, the paperback will be on Amazon. What you can't then do is use the same ISBN in KDP to get a cheaper version which makes more royalty.
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LilyBLily

Re: D2D or Ingram for publishing your paperbacks wide
« Reply #26 on: March 15, 2023, 11:43:30 PM »
So D2D print is not significantly different from Ingram print except for incidental costs (which can add up). The only way to make a decent profit is to overprice in a big way. I don't see that working for a mere novella.

It's too bad, because the cover mock-up looks very pretty and I don't see any way of grabbing it from D2D and taking it to Amazon and just doing a regular print book. Maybe I can do a screen shot and have someone on Fiverr copy it. (I have a professional ebook cover for the front cover.)

My experience with wide print distribution has been that very few books except my one nonfiction title ever sell wide. Back in the CreateSpace days I had two print editions of everything and one was for wide, very overpriced to allow for the low royalty. The fiction titles did not move.

The ISBN nonsense is just that: nonsense. An ISBN for print should be good for anyone who prints it; it's not a different edition. Another reason to avoid D2D, alas.
 

TimothyEllis

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Re: D2D or Ingram for publishing your paperbacks wide
« Reply #27 on: March 15, 2023, 11:54:37 PM »
It's too bad, because the cover mock-up looks very pretty and I don't see any way of grabbing it from D2D and taking it to Amazon and just doing a regular print book. Maybe I can do a screen shot and have someone on Fiverr copy it. (I have a professional ebook cover for the front cover.)

You could do that. But doing the cover is pretty easy anyway if you use Photoshop.

Amazon has a calculator in Help you put the book size in, number of pages, type of paper, and it gives you a downloadable template.

So you take your screen print and save it as the highest possible resolution you can, and then cut it up into three pieces, front, spine, and back.

Then you just put each piece over the template and resize it to fit. (I don't think just stretching it to fit the template boundary will work, as the spine will probably be out, or the titling not inside the white lines).

You might need a single colour background image to go behind them if things don't fit inside the white lines properly.

Save as a low res pdf, and upload as a cover, then check in the online checker that it looks ok and no errors are flagged.

Once I figured that out, it was pretty easy to do.

I don't like what comes out of the D2D cover generator. The entire back cover for me is crap. I just did my own using the universe and series logos.
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alhawke

Re: D2D or Ingram for publishing your paperbacks wide
« Reply #28 on: March 16, 2023, 12:16:03 AM »
My experience with wide print distribution has been that very few books except my one nonfiction title ever sell wide.
I haven't sold a book via Ingram in six months. I sell on average a paperback weekly on Amazon. But for me, Ingram's failure is partly because I've had to mark-up my paperbacks on Ingram by $2-3 in order for Amazon to not drop the ebook price (once the paperback drops below the ebook, Amazon price matches the ebook). This means that I'm only selling Ingram for show outside Amazon. And it's why I'm about an inch away from stopping wide production outside of Amazon. Kind of sucks cause if you get my above logic, it means that Amazon "wins" and is getting the deal due to their price matching program (which I can't stand). But  :shrug I have to keep my ebook prices competitive.