Dogs: From: lockdown thread

[elleoco]

And.... My biggest worry in all this lockdown mess is for my dogs. I lost my oldest dog and my horse in early February, and while I mourned them like all those losses, there was also more than a little relief. Just a week or two later I was no longer sure I could get an equine vet or body disposal people to the house, and since Kate, my horse, was 35 (kind of like a 100-year-old person), I hadn't been buying feed in quantities but only a month at a time for at least the last 5 years, which means there would also have been the getting-feed problem.

The dog, Victor, was also old enough illness and treatment would be a concern. I understand small animal vets are still operating, but in a way I really, really would not like to deal with, especially for end of life treatment. So he had an ultrasound, bloodwork, etc., when he began to go downhill and like Kate, was euthanized just before the lockdown.

But my other two girls - if I'm hospitalized, what's going to happen to them? My friends are all dog people, which is to say they already have their own. I know, assuming her health holds, the breeder of Story, the older dog, would take her and care for her in every way, and since she co-owns, no authority could stop her from doing that, assuming her health holds.

The younger dog's breeder also co-owns, but she no longer lives close. It was a relief to have Janine, Story's breeder, tell me she'd take Teagan too if it came to that. At the first sign of any symptom, I'll send her a power of attorney for Teagan ASAP.

[Bill Hiatt]

And.... My biggest worry in all this lockdown mess is for my dogs. I lost my oldest dog and my horse in early February, and while I mourned them like all those losses, there was also more than a little relief. Just a week or two later I was no longer sure I could get an equine vet or body disposal people to the house, and since Kate, my horse, was 35 (kind of like a 100-year-old person), I hadn't been buying feed in quantities but only a month at a time for at least the last 5 years, which means there would also have been the getting-feed problem.

The dog, Victor, was also old enough illness and treatment would be a concern. I understand small animal vets are still operating, but in a way I really, really would not like to deal with, especially for end of life treatment. So he had an ultrasound, bloodwork, etc., when he began to go downhill and like Kate, was euthanized just before the lockdown.

But my other two girls - if I'm hospitalized, what's going to happen to them? My friends are all dog people, which is to say they already have their own. I know, assuming her health holds, the breeder of Story, the older dog, would take her and care for her in every way, and since she co-owns, no authority could stop her from doing that, assuming her health holds.

The younger dog's breeder also co-owns, but she no longer lives close. It was a relief to have Janine, Story's breeder, tell me she'd take Teagan too if it came to that. At the first sign of any symptom, I'll send her a power of attorney for Teagan ASAP.

I can imagine it must be tough to have to worry about family members (furry and otherwise) who depend on you. But Colorado is not as hard-hit as some states, and it sounds as if you're taking care of yourself, so hopefully, you won't get infected. (I just did a quick calculation based on the latest figures, and it looks as if cases in your state are less than four-tenths of one percent of the population, and, if your state is like others, a big chunk of those are people living and/or working in crowded conditions.) However, being a worrier myself, I know how it is to have something hanging over you like that. I'll be keeping a good thought for you.

[Shawna]

But my other two girls - if I'm hospitalized, what's going to happen to them? My friends are all dog people, which is to say they already have their own. I know, assuming her health holds, the breeder of Story, the older dog, would take her and care for her in every way, and since she co-owns, no authority could stop her from doing that, assuming her health holds.

The younger dog's breeder also co-owns, but she no longer lives close. It was a relief to have Janine, Story's breeder, tell me she'd take Teagan too if it came to that. At the first sign of any symptom, I'll send her a power of attorney for Teagan ASAP.

Not entirely on-topic, but can I ask about "co-owns"? Is this a specific, unusual situation you have (I've heard of people doing that for dogs that the breeder intended to use for breeding), or was this presented as the standard contract by the breeders? Because if so, that gets a huge "back away slowly" from me.

[elleoco]

Not entirely on-topic, but can I ask about "co-owns"? Is this a specific, unusual situation you have (I've heard of people doing that for dogs that the breeder intended to use for breeding), or was this presented as the standard contract by the breeders? Because if so, that gets a huge "back away slowly" from me.

It is a thread digression, but I'm sure those not interested will skip this and forgive us. Yes, in purebred dogs it's pretty common that breeders want to co-own puppies they sell. The good thing about ethical breeders of quality dogs is that they feel a responsibility for any puppy they've bred for its whole life. If necessary they'll take back a 9-year-old spayed or neutered dog they bred and give it a good home. The flip side of that is they want some control. They don't want a puppy buyer breeding a dog they got as pet quality and swore to never breed. They do want a puppy buyer who promised to show the dog, breed it and give the original breeder a puppy out of the first litter to keep that promise. I know of one breeder in this area who used her contract to get back a dog at 3 or 4 because the buyer left him chained in the yard and neglected him. So some breeders try to control what happens to their puppies with co-ownerships. Others use written contracts, and some use both. And I've heard of ugly disputes both because of co-ownerships and contracts, even occasional lawsuits.

So if you want a purebred puppy, do get it from an caring, ethical breeder, but also do know what you're getting into. At least on contracts, IMO the disputes are the buyer's fault. They want the puppy so much they'll sign anything, and some breeders really have restrictive contracts. (I saw one that dictated what you had to feed the dog, and you were to mail proofs of purchase of the right kibble to the breeder.) So when the dog is a couple of years old, one of those contract provisions comes into play and the buyer gets all upset. "I didn't realize." As if signing something without reading it is an automatic out.

Moral of story. Read any contract before signing. Don't sign if you're not willing to honor every single provision even in the worst case. Kris Rusch gives that advice about publishing contracts. Bad contract? Try to negotiate, and if you can't get it fixed, walk away.

In my case, I am not a breeder and everyone involved knows what I want is a spayed pet I can train and trial in obedience and other competitions I can do myself. I always insisted on getting my dogs in my name only, albeit with a contract. However, my situation has changed. The odds of my outliving the dogs I have now are good; I'm old but healthy. Still, it's not guaranteed. I'll be close to 80 when my older dog is 10 and 80 when the younger one is. My last Rottweiler lived almost to 12. A co-ownership with a person I trust protects the dog.

The co-ownership means there's no legal hassle about that person taking the dog if something happens to me. I don't have family I'm close to or who live within a thousand miles. So let's say I suddenly kick the bucket or become disabled. It's possible animal control would be called and take the dogs before anyone who cares about the dogs finds out. If a friend goes to animal control some days later and says they want that dog, that they promised me to take it and care for it, a tiny tyrant bureaucrat could refuse to release the dog. There are laws, rules, regulations, they have to follow process, etc. However, animal control can't refuse to turn that dog over to a legal co-owner.

More than you ever wanted to know, right?

[Shawna]

Not entirely on-topic, but can I ask about "co-owns"? Is this a specific, unusual situation you have (I've heard of people doing that for dogs that the breeder intended to use for breeding), or was this presented as the standard contract by the breeders? Because if so, that gets a huge "back away slowly" from me.

It is a thread digression, but I'm sure those not interested will skip this and forgive us. Yes, in purebred dogs it's pretty common that breeders want to co-own puppies they sell. The good thing about ethical breeders of quality dogs is that they feel a responsibility for any puppy they've bred for its whole life. If necessary they'll take back a 9-year-old spayed or neutered dog they bred and give it a good home. The flip side of that is they want some control. They don't want a puppy buyer breeding a dog they got as pet quality and swore to never breed. They do want a puppy buyer who promised to show the dog, breed it and give the original breeder a puppy out of the first litter to keep that promise. I know of one breeder in this area who used her contract to get back a dog at 3 or 4 because the buyer left him chained in the yard and neglected him. So some breeders try to control what happens to their puppies with co-ownerships. Others use written contracts, and some use both. And I've heard of ugly disputes both because of co-ownerships and contracts, even occasional lawsuits.

Are you in the US? My dad has had purebred dogs my whole life, and he's never been asked to sign any kind of co-ownership agreement, nor would he. Nor would I. There's simply no way I would allow anyone else to have legal ownership rights to a member of my family (or even an expensive piece of my property). I don't mean to sound like I'm criticizing you at all, but I do find it an outrageous thing for any breeder to require. That is just such a hard no from me, as someone used to the idea of purebred dogs, that I would honestly be offended if I was presented with a contract like that. I would sooner buy a random puppy from the neighborhood.

I definitely agree that a reputable breeder will take a dog back if there's a problem. This is also something I've been used to from seeing my dad's experience with breeders. The one he's gotten his past several dogs from has a policy of taking any of their dogs back at any age for any reason. A good, reputable breeder cares about their dogs and wants them to have a good home, no matter its age. (My brother, years ago, bought a dog from what seemed like a reputable breeder. After several years, his life situation changed and he felt he had to get rid of it. The breeder was surprised by the very notion that he might take the dog back. My brother was stuck giving it to some stranger who didn't even end up being a good fit. My brother didn't want to deal with it. We have no idea what ultimately happened to the dog. So, yeah ... if you're gonna pay the money to buy from a breeder, I'd call a solid return policy an absolute must.)

I've heard of spay/neuter agreements, where breeders require that a dog be spayed/neutered so that they don't get used for competing breeding, which makes sense to me. I can understand where that is coming from, and while I don't love it (I do tend to want to actually fully own things I buy), it wouldn't be an issue for me since I would never deliberately breed one of my pets (it's shockingly dangerous for females and so often goes poorly). That is absolutely possible to do without the breeder having to retain ownership of the dog. (Especially if they just go ahead and get it fixed before selling. My cat was actually spayed at like 7 1/2 weeks because the rescue required it, and she was totally fine.)

I would never sign a contract where the other party tried to assure me that they'd never use it. "If you don't intend to use it, why do you need it?" and "If you don't trust me to not be a criminal, don't sell me your dog. If you do your due diligence and think I'm a responsible person, sell me the dog. You don't get it both ways." (Really, the same kind of contract advice that, as you say, Kris Rusch talks about for writing. At least the first point there, though the second is a bit like the "morality clauses" she's mentioned in recent contracts.)

Honestly, it's probably a moot point as far as my personal future, since cats just fit so much better into my life. But still, if I ever did decide to get a dog and wanted to get it from a proper breeder, I would still never sign a contract like that. Not all breeders use them, so there's no reason for buyers to accept them (unless their very specific circumstances make them make sense).

It does make sense in your situation, though, if you're old enough without anyone else lined up to care for the dog if you die. I can see that. It can be challenging enough for the family to figure out what to do with a dog; it would be even worse if the owner didn't have family or family who cared enough to find a good home. (Though I'd think another option, rather than co-ownership, would be to just include instructions in your trust after you make arrangements with someone, to cover any potential legal issues.)

[JRTomlin]

In fact, a good breeder will make returning a dog if you cannot give it a home part of the contract which is different from co-ownership. I've never run into that.

[elleoco]

Are you in the US? My dad has had purebred dogs my whole life, and he's never been asked to sign any kind of co-ownership agreement, nor would he. Nor would I. There's simply no way I would allow anyone else to have legal ownership rights to a member of my family (or even an expensive piece of my property). I don't mean to sound like I'm criticizing you at all, but I do find it an outrageous thing for any breeder to require. That is just such a hard no from me, as someone used to the idea of purebred dogs, that I would honestly be offended if I was presented with a contract like that. I would sooner buy a random puppy from the neighborhood.

I'm in Colorado. In some ways I shared your attitude toward co-ownership until these last two dogs, and always had only dogs that were 100% mine, although for the purebreds I always signed a contract I thought reasonable. I wanted my puppies to come from people who cared enough to try to protect them. It's just a matter of what a particular breeder wanted and what I did, whether that could mesh, whether they ended up having a puppy for me, etc.

Each of us gets to decide what's right for us. No one has to get a puppy from any certain source.

As an aside, I did Rottweiler rescue for 10 years, and our adoption requirements were similar to that of breeders, more stringent really: fee, contract, references, home visit. Every rescue I know of is like that. And if you don't want that, you can go to a public animal shelter, pay the fee and take the dog.

Under law, dogs may be merely property, but as far as I'm concerned, getting a dog shouldn't be like buying a widget, but like adopting a child. You can't believe the lies people tell to get what they want; checking them out before handing over a living creature only makes sense. Taking calls to a rescue group from people who need to "get rid of" their dog is a real eye opener, as is calling references and visiting homes of adoption applicants.

[notthatamanda]

So pets -

Most dog breeders I've heard of have "return to breeder" contracts. If you don't want the dog anymore, for any reason, they want it returned.

Shelters - you do sign an agreement around here that says you will return the pet to the shelter. Shelters here spay, and neuter dogs, cats, and rabbits, before they adopt them out. Dogs and cats are microchipped. I know someone who adopted 2 cats from the MSPCA. She gave one to her mother in law, and specifically told her if she didn't want the cat, the daughter in law would keep both. Instead MIL took the cat to a different shelter. They scanned the microchip and the DIL got a call from the original shelter yelling at her about it. Other than that, I have to say, this lady was the most awesome MIL ever, even DIL said so, she's just very non confrontational, even though it wouldn't have been a confrontation.

Rabbits - so our old rabbit club leader hooked up a new member with a breeder and got them an amazing mini rex. Which they got neutered. Leader was PISSED, and kind of nasty about it. As a general rule, rabbits can live 10-12 years if spayed/neutered. Six years is all you get if not. Temperament is also much better when fixed, they are horny all the time, starting at about six months old, when their hormones kick in. Which is why a lot of rabbits get dumped in shelters about six months after Easter. Our club does an annual "Pat the Bunny" club about a month before Easter every year, to try to educate people about rabbits. Which we didn't get to have this year. :( Now we encourage people who want to join the club to get animals from the shelter. I'm not against breeding, but I know realistically people don't really know what they are getting into with rabbit breeding, so I don't encourage it.

On the other hand, at least one purebred rabbit is endangered, the French lop. And of all the rabbits to breed, I wouldn't do that one. They are nutty. English lops are lovely. And my dream rabbit is a Thrianta.

Sorry - pre caffeine, no filter.

Tim - Time to break this off into a pet/breeder thread?

[R H Auslander]

Before the separate 'dog breeder' thread kicks in....

We have never had a contract with anyone who bought one of our dogs, in theory the way the system works here is you sold the dog, they bought the dog, end of story. However, the last two we sold did come back home. Ella we sold when she was 8 months and two weeks later she ran from her new owner. Took us a week to find her, her new owner was in an area about 50 klicks to our east. Ended up simply driving through several villages with flyers and photos of her and offering a reward. Fortunately my wife is half Tatar and speaks Tatar well. That little foible got Ella located in a day, although it was fun catching her. She was never the same after we brought her home, obviously she was beaten often by the woman who bought her. To this day, almost 8 years later, she is afraid of my hand even though she has never had anything but love and affection since we found her. None of our dogs have ever been hit or beaten, all is done with patience and consistency.

The other dog that came home is Ruslan. We sold him at six months of age to acquaintances who live but a few kilometers away and we did see him from time to time. Suffice it to say they called last late summer and said either we come get him or they would turn him out on the street, they just didn't want him anymore. Needless to say, we immediately picked him up. He was not in the best of condition, not emaciated but surely not well fed, his coat was bedraggled and he was stone deaf. His three sisters, Aleesya, Plyushya and Zychkya, were not sold so we still had them. They welcomed the old boy as they should, they remembered him and he remembered them after over 12 years of separation. He's doing quite well, now, happy, showered with love every day as they all are, and well fed. However, he does not get along will with his nephew Aleksandr, but that's to be expected.

Aleesya passed away about three weeks ago. She lived in the house with Sophia and Ye'katarina, she was getting a bit frail. She simply walked up to my wife one morning, laid down and never stood up again. She passed that evening and since we can't get up in the mountains to put her with her mother and father, we put her to rest outside our west walls. With three more now very old dogs, I know what's coming this summer. So be it, they've all had good and long lives.

[VanessaC]

Rabbits - so our old rabbit club leader hooked up a new member with a breeder and got them an amazing mini rex. Which they got neutered. Leader was PISSED, and kind of nasty about it. As a general rule, rabbits can live 10-12 years if spayed/neutered. Six years is all you get if not. Temperament is also much better when fixed, they are horny all the time, starting at about six months old, when their hormones kick in. Which is why a lot of rabbits get dumped in shelters about six months after Easter. Our club does an annual "Pat the Bunny" club about a month before Easter every year, to try to educate people about rabbits. Which we didn't get to have this year. :( Now we encourage people who want to join the club to get animals from the shelter. I'm not against breeding, but I know realistically people don't really know what they are getting into with rabbit breeding, so I don't encourage it.

On the other hand, at least one purebred rabbit is endangered, the French lop. And of all the rabbits to breed, I wouldn't do that one. They are nutty. English lops are lovely. And my dream rabbit is a Thrianta.

I have two rescue cats, which both came with the "return to shelter" clause - if anything happens, they can go back to the shelter, no questions asked. I think it's actually mandatory in the contract that if you can't keep them, they go back to the rescue organisation, rather than me attempting to rehome them. But, whilst I'm capable, they will have a home with me.

My dog is pedigree and his breeder would definitely have him back if I couldn't keep him any longer - all reputable and ethical breeders that I've ever heard of would do the same. However, like the cats, he's with me for the duration.

Oh, rabbits! Do you know, I have never, ever, had a rabbit for a pet, but they always seem absolutely adorable. I also had no idea that they could live so long - that's a good lifespan for a pet. That said, I have a weakness for large animals, which tend not to live so long - my dog is a giant breed, and the short life span is the absolutely worst thing about the breed.

Clearly, with two cats and a giant dog in the house, I'm not getting rabbits anytime soon, though!

[notthatamanda]

The French lops are the biggest lops, 12-14 pounds. Flemish giants are even bigger. And some lady in the UK is breeding super ginormous Flemish giants.

https://www.guinnessworldrecords.com/world-records/210091-longest-rabbit

We love our rabbits. They use a litterbox like a cat and love to play like a dog. The definitely have huge personalities and worship me as the giver of the daily dried papaya treat. They lick and groom us for hours if we want.

The whole pet compatibility thing really depends on the animals themselves, not that I'm trying to talk anyone into getting a pet or another pet. That needs to be a careful decision. But we had a friend who had two Dobermans and two rabbits and when one rabbit would stamp one Doberman would hide under the kitchen table and cry. It was pretty funny.

[VanessaC]

Wow, that is one giant rabbit! Thank you so much for the extra information. They sound like great pets. Will definitely consider them in the future - my two cats would not take well to another pet in the house! The dog would love it though.

[notthatamanda]

Wow, that is one giant rabbit! Thank you so much for the extra information. They sound like great pets. Will definitely consider them in the future - my two cats would not take well to another pet in the house! The dog would love it though.

I'm not a cat person but I know enough to not piss a cat off, ever.

[Maggie Ann]

Ellen, I understand your concerns. My dog is four and there is no way I am going to outlive him. I've already made arrangements for my daughter to take Mikey if anything should happen to me.

I was recently two months in the hospital and rehab and then another four days a week and a half after I got out of rehab, and Mikey would not eat properly or go into the yard to do his business. Two months later and he is still not fully back to house trained. he is eating on a regular schedule now but not the same one as he was before. I started walking him yesterday and now he seems to be remembering his training.

I'm glad you told us about the co-ownership so that there will be no question my daughter can keep Mikey. My grandson was at home with him while I was away, but it's obvious he neglected him. Not out of malice, but laziness.

[notthatamanda]

We have a declaration of temporary guardianship for the kids, with three friends listed on it. They are all bunny people so no problem there. We also have the info in cards in our wallets. If anyone is interested I would suggest having a notice in your home that is easily visible, plus a card for your wallet that states:

I have a (list pet at home).  If I am unable to care for my pet please contact (Emergency contact information) They have agreed to take care of my pet if I am unable.

So IANAL, but the way the lawyer explained it to me, for kids, is that the cops, in my state anyway, need something legal, if there is an emergency or they have no choice but to call social services. We got a laminated card with all the info and the cards for our wallets. If you get removed from your house by ambulance, or worse, make it easy for law enforcement to find the emergency pet custodian info. They may have no other choice but to call animal control otherwise. There may be some options for storing that info in the microchip database too, if your pet is microchipped, but I am not familiar with that.

[Shawna]

As an aside, I did Rottweiler rescue for 10 years, and our adoption requirements were similar to that of breeders, more stringent really: fee, contract, references, home visit. Every rescue I know of is like that. And if you don't want that, you can go to a public animal shelter, pay the fee and take the dog.

Under law, dogs may be merely property, but as far as I'm concerned, getting a dog shouldn't be like buying a widget, but like adopting a child. You can't believe the lies people tell to get what they want; checking them out before handing over a living creature only makes sense. Taking calls to a rescue group from people who need to "get rid of" their dog is a real eye opener, as is calling references and visiting homes of adoption applicants.

I understand why rescue organizations are so stringent, but I honestly think that the cost and bother (and sometimes unreasonable contracts) are a huge deterrent from good, responsible owners getting those animals. Just because someone *can* pay the fees and *is* a good owner with a good situation doesn't mean they want to pay a premium price when they're trying to "rescue" an animal, nor does it mean they want to go through the whole "are you worthy to adopt this dog?" thing--again, when they're trying to, as they see it, do a good deed by adopting. I really get that there are bad people out there, so *some* screening/fee does make sense, and I get that the people running the rescues (usually) only want what's best for the animals. But I'm just seeing it from my side of things, and if I think what the shelter asks is unreasonable, I have other options. I don't want to beg to "rescue" an animal when I can easily get one elsewhere.

I currently have three cats. One I got from a rescue, so she was spayed/microchipped before I got to keep her, and I had to sign a short contract. I wasn't all that happy with some of the language, but I was a lot younger and I really wanted this particular cat, so I went with it. (Haven't had a problem.) And the fee was like $75 and included the spay/chip, so I thought that was totally reasonable. My other two cats were kittens of a stray that a friend's family ended up with, so they were free. They've all been equally great. With cats in particular, it's so incredibly easy to get a totally free kitten, I think rescues should be very careful about demanding too much if they actually want to find the cats homes. With purebred dogs, it's a different story entirely, I'd guess. The demand is great enough that rescues can be much more choosy. (I would assume.) It's important to know the value of your product.

The only dog I ever had was a rottie. She was a runt, and we got her from an ad in the paper (back when that was still a thing) from someone in town who'd bred their two purebred rotties. No contract, no guarantees, great price. I loved her to pieces. She was a huge baby. I once saw her flinch when a feather on the ground was lightly blown by the wind.

I do need to correct myself on one thing: I checked with my dad, and apparently he did do a co-ownership deal with a dog previously, decades ago, when I was very, very young. Sounds like the co-ownership only lasted until she was spayed (they bred her once, I think, and it did not go well). And that was back when he was more into AKC/confirmation, so I wonder if this is more common in those circles.

[notthatamanda]

I think the MSPCA shelter will do a sliding scale if need be. We paid $80 for the male and twice that for the female. I'm not sure what they are charging now but fixing a rabbit can be $300-$400 and it's hard to find a vet, small animal anesthesia is tricky. We adopted the female first and I had to prove I was a home owner (people try to get pets when it's against their rent agreement) and show pictures of the cage we had and stuff. When we got the boy a couple of years later we did bunny speed dating and brought the girl in to meet some other buns. They were a little less picky about my credentials as they had me in their system and they saw we had taken good care of the first one.

Sometimes they get overrun with bunnies in the fall and will adopt them out free for the month of October but we didn't ever time it right for that. I didn't mind giving them the money though, it's obvious when you are up there that they need every cent they can get. They also sell hay there for seven bucks for a huge flake but I don't get up there often enough anymore to buy it. When the kids were little we went all the time to see the animals. Always a lot of pitbulls in the dog area. One time we were there and animal control showed up with seven pitbulls in the van. Dog fighting is still a problem around here.

[elleoco]

It's important to know the value of your product.

As to the value of a dog coming from a decent rescue organization - To spay a large dog like a Rottweiler is going to cost hundreds these days. You aren't going to walk in and out of a vet office in this area for less than a $50 office visit fee. So for the rescue fee you get a dog that's spayed/neutered, microchipped, up to date on vaccines, and evaluated as to suitability for the adopter's particular situation at the minimum. Yes, of course, there are crummy rescues just like there are crummy breeders. You always do have to do a little research to be sure you're dealing with someone ethical.

More than that, I believe a lot of the people who go to rescues realize there's a charitable factor. They must because they later make donations. I know our group got puppies through parvo and had dogs in foster homes for months during heartworm treatment. One dog had several surgeries for a broken leg that had been neglected so long the bone was infected. Another had a human dentist do root canals and a shortening procedure on canine teeth that drove into the roof of his mouth because of a bad bite (the cheap alternative is to pull the teeth, and without them, the tongue hangs out). We had dogs that needed and got orthopedic procedures such as ACL surgery. Yes, we found vets who gave us discounts, but these are still expensive procedures.

[Shawna]

It's important to know the value of your product.

As to the value of a dog coming from a decent rescue organization - To spay a large dog like a Rottweiler is going to cost hundreds these days. You aren't going to walk in and out of a vet office in this area for less than a $50 office visit fee. So for the rescue fee you get a dog that's spayed/neutered, microchipped, up to date on vaccines, and evaluated as to suitability for the adopter's particular situation at the minimum. Yes, of course, there are crummy rescues just like there are crummy breeders. You always do have to do a little research to be sure you're dealing with someone ethical.

I was speaking more to the breed. If you've got a purebred dog, as a buyer/adopter, then charging a few/several hundred dollars for an adoption fee is more reasonable, since it's in comparison to the thousands a breeder would charge. (Unless the rescue *is* charging $1,000+, in which case I think that's getting into 'unreasonable' territory for an adoption fee. The value of the dog itself is higher than a mutt would be.

Personally (and I have close friends who feel differently than this about me), I would not consider the cost of prior surgeries or care into what I considered an acceptable adoption fee for an animal. As far as I'm concerned, if you're the prior owner (whether an individual or an organization), it's your decision and your responsibility to get the animal whatever you care you think it needs. When you sell it, you're selling it as-is, and I'm buying it in the condition it's currently in. If you're selling me a healthy dog, it's probably not going to matter a great deal to me whether it's always been healthy or whether it's had some serious health issue that cost thousands of dollars for you to correct. The value to me is the same, because I'm judging the value based on the current condition of the animal, not the investment you made in it. So charging extra because the dog had to have surgeries (if that's what a rescue does) is essentially asking the buyer to reimburse the seller for decisions made by the seller before the buyer was even involved, and I think that's rather silly. I consider the rescue organization the owner of the dog for as long as they legally own the dog, not simply a caretaker on behalf of some potential future buyer.

And yes, I do see it from the rescue's POV, that they have expenses and they'd like to make that money back. I just don't think it's my responsibility as the potential buyer to do that. (But like I said, I know people who feel differently.)

Having the animal already spayed/neutered would be a benefit to me that I'd take into consideration when looking at the adoption fee, but if it's just the full price of a spay/neuter added onto whatever the adoption fee would otherwise be (or when I can subtract the usual price of that procedure from the fee and still come up with a number I find unreasonable as an adoption fee), I wouldn't be so okay with that. Because if it's not included prior to me taking ownership and without a significant increase in the fee to me, it's useful. If it's full-price added on top, I'd rather take the dog un-fixed and take it to my own vet to have the procedure done by a vet I choose at a price I pre-approve.

[elleoco]

I was speaking more to the breed. If you've got a purebred dog, as a buyer/adopter, then charging a few/several hundred dollars for an adoption fee is more reasonable, since it's in comparison to the thousands a breeder would charge. (Unless the rescue *is* charging $1,000+, in which case I think that's getting into 'unreasonable' territory for an adoption fee. The value of the dog itself is higher than a mutt would be.

Personally (and I have close friends who feel differently than this about me), I would not consider the cost of prior surgeries or care into what I considered an acceptable adoption fee for an animal.

As someone who was heavily involved in a rescue group and who has fostered and adopted rescues and loved them dearly, I hate admitting this, but will. Very few dogs that come from purebred rescues are quality examples of their breed. When you think about it, it makes sense, the quality dogs come from breeders who have those restrictive contracts you don't like and are far less likely to end up homeless. I also don't think most people who adopt from rescues do it for the snob factor of having a purebred. They do it because they like the appearance of that breed and think the traits of that breed will suit them. Not saying that's universal, but it's common.

And I did not mean any individual adopter should be or is charged for prior surgeries and care in adopting the dog, but that the rescue has to have a fee that makes its ongoing existence possible. Unlike a tax-supported city or county shelter, it has to have an adoption fee that covers costs, although donations and grants can also be factored in. The larger the rescue organization the more likely it is to apply for and receive grants and be able to count on donations.

I think there's no more use in the two of us discussing this. Our basic feelings about the subject are just too different.

[Shawna]

I think there's no more use in the two of us discussing this. Our basic feelings about the subject are just too different.

I mean, it's okay to discuss things we disagree on, right? Isn't that how we learn? Just because I may have a strong opinion about something doesn't mean I'm not listening to opposing viewpoints. I don't really think all discussions need to end in either "convince someone to change their mind" or "give up".

[elleoco]

I mean, it's okay to discuss things we disagree on, right? Isn't that how we learn? Just because I may have a strong opinion about something doesn't mean I'm not listening to opposing viewpoints. I don't really think all discussions need to end in either "convince someone to change their mind" or "give up".

I sincerely doubt if one mind has ever been changed by an internet argument. My personal theory is you state your case, maybe make one rebuttal, and then stop. We've already gone beyond that. I know your position, you know mine.

[Shawna]

I mean, it's okay to discuss things we disagree on, right? Isn't that how we learn? Just because I may have a strong opinion about something doesn't mean I'm not listening to opposing viewpoints. I don't really think all discussions need to end in either "convince someone to change their mind" or "give up".

I sincerely doubt if one mind has ever been changed by an internet argument. My personal theory is you state your case, maybe make one rebuttal, and then stop. We've already gone beyond that. I know your position, you know mine.

My point was kind of that we shouldn't have to be trying to change each other's minds to have an interesting discussion. But fair enough. I'll shut up now.

[R H Auslander]

We have seven dogs, all pure bred collies, old style, IOW large and strong. My wife and I have been quite careful during this virus mess because if anything happens to us, who's going to take care of and feed our children? Toss in the fact that the youngest pair are now 8 years, oldest three 14, and the problems would grow exponentially.

There are no pet adoption agencies in this AO, period. The State from time to time sweeps the street dogs up, neuters those deemed viable, vaccinates them and turns them back out on the street with an ear tag which we joke is their 'propeeska', their official Sevastopol registration.

[elleoco]

We have seven dogs, all pure bred collies, old style, IOW large and strong. My wife and I have been quite careful during this virus mess because if anything happens to us, who's going to take care of and feed our children? Toss in the fact that the youngest pair are now 8 years, oldest three 14, and the problems would grow exponentially.

Your dogs must be like the collies I remember from my childhood and what I pictured when I read all of Albert Payson Terhune's books. Much more to my taste than what I see in the show ring these days.

Stay safe. I have a feeling I wouldn't be working as hard as I am at being lockdown compliant if it was just a matter of my age. Even though I think I have my dogs covered now, there's still that what if... kind of worry. It's a sad relief that I no longer have a horse to worry about.

[R H Auslander]

We have 3 m walls around our little compound, not to keep people out but to keep our boys in. The boys generally measure 2.5 m tip of nose to tip of tail so 2 meters to them is a speed bump. My wife is 147 cm and our youngest, Aleksandr, can put his paws on her shoulders and look down at her. We are, or were, keeping the old blood lines going. Our blue girl Sophia is the finest blue in all Russia and Ukraine, but sadly, like many blues, she is barren.

[elleoco]

We have 3 m walls around our little compound, not to keep people out but to keep our boys in. The boys generally measure 2.5 m tip of nose to tip of tail so 2 meters to them is a speed bump. My wife is 147 cm and our youngest, Aleksandr, can put his paws on her shoulders and look down at her. We are, or were, keeping the old blood lines going. Our blue girl Sophia is the finest blue in all Russia and Ukraine, but sadly, like many blues, she is barren.

Oh, that's too bad about your girl and blue collies in general. I think they're called merle in U.S., or is that an old fashioned term?

I have Rottweilers, but only bitches, so 85 pounds and maybe 23 inches tall, and my yard is fenced with 5-1/2' wire mesh. I've never had any dog jump the fence, but I did have one rescue I fostered climb it and another persistently dug under. The climber went to a home with 6' chainlink that didn't have reinforcing posts with a cross bar she could use to climb at corners. The digger went to a home with underground electric backing up physical fence.

[R H Auslander]

Yes, officially it's blue merle, but often referred to simply as 'blues'.

My hat is off to you for fostering dogs, that is a difficult and often thankless task.

[elleoco]

Yes, officially it's blue merle, but often referred to simply as 'blues'.

My hat is off to you for fostering dogs, that is a difficult and often thankless task.

Can't say I ever had regrets about any of the dogs. It was the people who burnt me out. I expected to be upset by the ones who neglect, abuse, and dump dogs - or even give them up just because they're inconvenient. What was stunning was the people who apply to adopt who lie in every way imaginable. Just as a for instance:

Call to reference of an adoption applicant, a neighbor:

Me: Do you think Ms. ________ would be a good home for a dog?

Neighbor: Uh. [Obvious reluctance to answer. Finally] Will she know what I said?

Me: Absolutely not. Whatever we decide, we never give reasons.

Neighbor: I wouldn't let that woman have a pet rock.

Conversation continues to how applicant neglected previous dog.


How about this one? Young man submits application saying he owns house where he now lives. Friend who is given as a reference tells me all about how this applicant lived in his car for a while last year when he had a fight with his father. County records on internet show sure enough, the parents own the house the applicant claimed was his.

This is from people these liars themselves presumably listed because they were their best hope for a good reference.

[Jeff Tanyard]

According to Led Zeppelin, there ain't no companion like a blue-eyed merle.

[R H Auslander]

Can't say I ever had regrets about any of the dogs. It was the people who burnt me out. I expected to be upset by the ones who neglect, abuse, and dump dogs - or even give them up just because they're inconvenient. What was stunning was the people who apply to adopt who lie in every way imaginable. Just as a for instance:
Call to reference of an adoption applicant, a neighbor:
Me: Do you think Ms. ________ would be a good home for a dog?
Neighbor: Uh. [Obvious reluctance to answer. Finally] Will she know what I said?
Me: Absolutely not. Whatever we decide, we never give reasons.
Neighbor: I wouldn't let that woman have a pet rock.
Conversation continues to how applicant neglected previous dog.
How about this one? Young man submits application saying he owns house where he now lives. Friend who is given as a reference tells me all about how this applicant lived in his car for a while last year when he had a fight with his father. County records on internet show sure enough, the parents own the house the applicant claimed was his.
This is from people these liars themselves presumably listed because they were their best hope for a good reference.

Two legs can be horribly cruel. It would break your heart to be in this village the first week of September when all the tourists will children go home and dump out the dogs and cats they kept for summer to amuse the youngsters. Last year and the year before, due to complaints from the locals several were caught at they left and asked by Militsiya where their dog or cat was. Big problems for them at that moment, but it did nothing for the poor dogs and cats just dumped out the door.

[notthatamanda]

Yeah, my husband's uncle adopted two rescue beagles that had been left in the garage when the owners moved. Just drove away. The neighbors knew they moved, heard the dogs barking, peeked in the garage and then called the police.

I spent about four half days in the biggest shelter around here when we adopted our two rabbits and heard things on surrender day that made me want to smack people upside the head with a two by four. I know someone who worked there regularly and she cried on the way home from work just about every day.

On the upside, the pictures of the collies are beautiful.

[elleoco]

Two legs can be horribly cruel. It would break your heart to be in this village the first week of September when all the tourists will children go home and dump out the dogs and cats they kept for summer to amuse the youngsters. Last year and the year before, due to complaints from the locals several were caught at they left and asked by Militsiya where their dog or cat was. Big problems for them at that moment, but it did nothing for the poor dogs and cats just dumped out the door.

It happens in areas here in the U.S. that have summer people too. On the plus side, more and more jurisdictions are passing tougher and tougher animal cruelty laws with tougher and tougher penalties, that is, some kinds of animal cruelty are now felonies in some jurisdictions.

[R H Auslander]

Yeah, my husband's uncle adopted two rescue beagles that had been left in the garage when the owners moved. Just drove away. The neighbors knew they moved, heard the dogs barking, peeked in the garage and then called the police.

I spent about four half days in the biggest shelter around here when we adopted our two rabbits and heard things on surrender day that made me want to smack people upside the head with a two by four. I know someone who worked there regularly and she cried on the way home from work just about every day.

On the upside, the pictures of the collies are beautiful.

I can only imagine the heartbreak of working for such an agency. I'd probably be shooting some of the 'clients' for absolute idiocy five minutes in to my first day.

Thanks for the compliments on our children. We don't breed anymore but we'll keep those we have come Hades or high water. We will get another blue girl this late fall and give her to Sophia to raise. Sophia raised Alik and his sister Ella when their mother Plyushya got tired of the 'mommy' gig, she even produced milk for them, which is not uncommon. To this day, if either Alik or Ella act up all she has to do is give them 'the look' and they stop instantly, even though both of them are considerably larger than Sofik.

Images are Melik and Manya in attack mode, they were huge, more than 2.5 m tip of nose to end of tail, and trained to guard and if needs be, to attack. And the three hooligans, Sophia, Ye'katarina and Zychkya.

[Maggie Ann]

those collies are gorgeous. you must spend a lot of time brushing them.

[R H Auslander]

Those collies are gorgeous. you must spend a lot of time brushing them.

Thank you for the compliments of our children. They all get brushed at least once a week depending on their coats. Sophia, the blue, gets brushed twice a week, neither my wife, who has bred collies for 25 years, nor I, and I've been around dogs all my life, have ever seen a dog with hair like hers. While all the others lose some of their coats in spring Sophia does not, she looks like a Siberian musk ox year 'round. My wife saves all the hair she brushes out and gives it to a friend of hers who makes back pads from said fir. Personal experience, the pads from dog hair do work if one has back problems.

[elleoco]

Well, it has been my most sincere wish that I wouldn't have to take one of my dogs to the vet until this virus thing is settled enough that they're allowing people inside the clinic with the dog again. However, my younger Rottie, Teagan, developed a lump on a hind leg I didn't dare ignore it, so we were off to the vet this morning.

I HATE letting other people handle my dogs, and sure enough, some tech comes to the car and opens the door, ignoring the leash I had attached to dog and hanging partly outside the closed door and fumbling around to get some nylon thingie attached. (If you've never tried to hang onto a pulling 90-pound Rottweiler with a nylon leash, you have avoided a painful experience that usually makes the human let go. And yes, my obedience trained girl gets so excited she pulls in circumstances like this, especially after not going anywhere for months.) If Teagan got loose in that area, that tech would find out new things about social distancing as I jumped out of the car and bowled her over to get to the dog myself.

No disaster today so far. I still have to wait for them to deliver her back to me in an hour or two, since evidently enough people are avoiding bringing in pets that not only did I get this 9 a.m. appointment when I only called yesterday, but they were able to do the removal this morning too. Now, assuming I get Teagan back without drama, I get to wait for the lab report on whether the thing was dangerous or not. The vet says she believes she got clean margins.

[notthatamanda]

Good luck with the pickup and the margins.

[R H Auslander]

Well, it has been my most sincere wish that I wouldn't have to take one of my dogs to the vet until this virus thing is settled enough that they're allowing people inside the clinic with the dog again. However, my younger Rottie, Teagan, developed a lump on a hind leg I didn't dare ignore it, so we were off to the vet this morning.

No disaster today so far. I still have to wait for them to deliver her back to me in an hour or two, since evidently enough people are avoiding bringing in pets that not only did I get this 9 a.m. appointment when I only called yesterday, but they were able to do the removal this morning too. Now, assuming I get Teagan back without drama, I get to wait for the lab report on whether the thing was dangerous or not. The vet says she believes she got clean margins.

Please do keep us in the loop concerning Teagan. I hope all works out well and she gets a clean bill of health after this ordeal.

[elleoco]

Thanks for the good wishes. She's home in one piece now - tired and unhappy but home and finally settled down and sleeping. Vet says lab report in 2-4 days.

[Maggie Ann]

I'm glad were able to get Teagan taken care of. Here's hoping for a good report.

[elleoco]

Well, nothing's ever easy, is it?

The pathology report came back on Teagan on Tuesday, and the vet read it to me. It included the phrase "benign cancerous" something or other (I was so stunned by the benign cancerous bit I didn't hear much more). The vet told me that "cancerous" was just the way any abnormal cell growth is described. Really? Skin tags are described as cancerous? I did some looking around on the internet that day and couldn't fine one place where "cancerous" isn't synonymous with "malignant." So what exactly would benign malignant mean? They couldn't decide?

So I left the vet a message saying I'd like her to get in touch with the lab and get some clarification. Today was a bandage change day. Actually they just left the leg naked. It's healing well. I asked for and got a copy of the pathology report, and what I got doesn't contain the inexplicable phrase. Haven't heard from the vet yet, but my guess is she did ask for a clarification. I hope she didn't just ask for a report without words that scare the owner.

They say it's a melanocytoma and is benign and the margins were clear and the surgery "is expected to be curative."

From a little more research, I think the original language is because while 85% of these things are benign, the other percent are malignant, and it's hard to tell the difference. So it was originally a waffle and revised to be more encouraging. Better than melanoma or mast cell, but still....

[notthatamanda]

I'm just guessing here but benign cancerous, could mean it could turn into cancer at some point. Benign by itself means it won't. My friends father-in-law had stage four benign esophageal cancer. I didn't know benign had stages, but it does.

Congratulations on the clear margins. That's great.

[Maggie Ann]

Phew!! Although I'm sure you could have done without the terrifying language.

[elleoco]

The problem is being a suspicious sort, I wonder if the revised report leaving out the scary language is a "pacify the upset old lady who owns dog" or the pathologist's real opinion. I'm one of those who can always find something to worry about. In this case, only time will tell. Rotties are very cancer prone, but she's only 5 and I didn't expect this kind of thing for at least another 4 years.

Thanks for all the good wishes, everyone. I shall try to cling to the "benign" in the report that's now without the contradictory second adjective.

[notthatamanda]

Cling to the fact that they got all of it. That's what "clear margins" means. Otherwise they'd be going back in for more surgery. Anyway, I hope she's back to her usual self real soon.

[wildcreature]

And.... My biggest worry in all this lockdown mess is for my dogs. I lost my oldest dog and my horse in early February, and while I mourned them like all those losses, there was also more than a little relief. Just a week or two later I was no longer sure I could get an equine vet or body disposal people to the house, and since Kate, my horse, was 35 (kind of like a 100-year-old person), I hadn't been buying feed in quantities but only a month at a time for at least the last 5 years, which means there would also have been the getting-feed problem.

The dog, Victor, was also old enough illness and treatment would be a concern. I understand small animal vets are still operating, but in a way I really, really would not like to deal with, especially for end of life treatment. So he had an ultrasound, bloodwork, etc., when he began to go downhill and like Kate, was euthanized just before the lockdown.

But my other two girls - if I'm hospitalized, what's going to happen to them? My friends are all dog people, which is to say they already have their own. I know, assuming her health holds, the breeder of Story, the older dog, would take her and care for her in every way, and since she co-owns, no authority could stop her from doing that, assuming her health holds.

The younger dog's breeder also co-owns, but she no longer lives close. It was a relief to have Janine, Story's breeder, tell me she'd take Teagan too if it came to that. At the first sign of any symptom, I'll send her a power of attorney for Teagan ASAP.

Crazy though it may be. We very recently adopted a rescue dog. We've called her Phoenix. She was transported in from Hawaii. We live in Wa. State. She is about 2 1/2 and in excellent health. She is very fearful. Scared of everything. She is improving each day, thankfully. We've had one vet visit and don't need another until March.

There is an extreme lack of dogs available for adoption here which is a good thing. If we both got sick I think we'd have to return the dog to the rescue. They are no kill. I'm trusting a vaccine will be available soon. We got a request in the mail to volunteer to be guinea pigs. We did but haven't been called yet. I do know that the results so far on the research have been good  and I'm hoping there will be a usable vaccine between Oct and New Years. My daughter's cat got corona virus per the vet. We have not been in physical contact at all. Cat is recovering.

We are being very careful in this community - only medical visits and safe dog walking. We don't even go to the grocery store.

[Maggie Ann]

And.... My biggest worry in all this lockdown mess is for my dogs. I lost my oldest dog and my horse in early February, and while I mourned them like all those losses, there was also more than a little relief. Just a week or two later I was no longer sure I could get an equine vet or body disposal people to the house, and since Kate, my horse, was 35 (kind of like a 100-year-old person), I hadn't been buying feed in quantities but only a month at a time for at least the last 5 years, which means there would also have been the getting-feed problem.

The dog, Victor, was also old enough illness and treatment would be a concern. I understand small animal vets are still operating, but in a way I really, really would not like to deal with, especially for end of life treatment. So he had an ultrasound, bloodwork, etc., when he began to go downhill and like Kate, was euthanized just before the lockdown.

But my other two girls - if I'm hospitalized, what's going to happen to them? My friends are all dog people, which is to say they already have their own. I know, assuming her health holds, the breeder of Story, the older dog, would take her and care for her in every way, and since she co-owns, no authority could stop her from doing that, assuming her health holds.

The younger dog's breeder also co-owns, but she no longer lives close. It was a relief to have Janine, Story's breeder, tell me she'd take Teagan too if it came to that. At the first sign of any symptom, I'll send her a power of attorney for Teagan ASAP.

Crazy though it may be. We very recently adopted a rescue dog. We've called her Phoenix. She was transported in from Hawaii. We live in Wa. State. She is about 2 1/2 and in excellent health. She is very fearful. Scared of everything. She is improving each day, thankfully. We've had one vet visit and don't need another until March.

There is an extreme lack of dogs available for adoption here which is a good thing. If we both got sick I think we'd have to return the dog to the rescue. They are no kill. I'm trusting a vaccine will be available soon. We got a request in the mail to volunteer to be guinea pigs. We did but haven't been called yet. I do know that the results so far on the research have been good  and I'm hoping there will be a usable vaccine between Oct and New Years. My daughter's cat got corona virus per the vet. We have not been in physical contact at all. Cat is recovering.

We are being very careful in this community - only medical visits and safe dog walking. We don't even go to the grocery store.

A shelter Near here has been completely emptied out. I guess people are trying to keep their kids busy during lockdown. I only hope when people start going back to work they don't turn the pets in.

[elleoco]

A shelter Near here has been completely emptied out. I guess people are trying to keep their kids busy during lockdown. I only hope when people start going back to work they don't turn the pets in.

From what I hear shelters all over the U.S. have been emptied out, and I too wonder what will happen when people go back to work and kids back to school. I hope most of these adopters are preparing their new pets for time alone. My dogs are used to my retired self being home all the time, but they can be left for a day when I'm off somewhere (which hasn't happened since February, of course).

I do see signs that the lockdown is affecting mine, though. They get close to hysterical with excitement over any change in the stay at home routine. Teagan was overjoyed to go to the vet. I take Story with me when I shop if it's cool enough to leave her in the car and I'm going somewhere I know there's parking in shade (hasn't happened these last few weeks).

[Maggie Ann]

A shelter Near here has been completely emptied out. I guess people are trying to keep their kids busy during lockdown. I only hope when people start going back to work they don't turn the pets in.

From what I hear shelters all over the U.S. have been emptied out, and I too wonder what will happen when people go back to work and kids back to school. I hope most of these adopters are preparing their new pets for time alone. My dogs are used to my retired self being home all the time, but they can be left for a day when I'm off somewhere (which hasn't happened since February, of course).

I do see signs that the lockdown is affecting mine, though. They get close to hysterical with excitement over any change in the stay at home routine. Teagan was overjoyed to go to the vet. I take Story with me when I shop if it's cool enough to leave her in the car and I'm going somewhere I know there's parking in shade (hasn't happened these last few weeks).

When I was in the hospital for two months, Mikey did not do well, even though my grandson was with him and taking care of him all day. He forgot his house training, and has never gotten back to a normal routine of eating times.