Serial Returners: They're Baaaack!

[writeway]

Noticed a rise in book returns over the last few weeks and thought you were going crazy? You're not. Apparently, people have found a workaround to Amazon's so-called new return book policy. Authors are starting to see massive returns again. Not sure if it will hit everyone but it's happening. Authors are saying readers on Facebook have been boasting about how easy it still is to return books and telling others how. I'm not surprised but I know some authors will be bummed and with the holidays more might see an even bigger rise in returns.

[idontknowyet]

peachy but not surprising

now i want to know who they are doing it but that feels it might just irk me more

[alhawke]

I've seen a drop in returns. I thought, and hoped, it was because of Amazon's efforts. Oh well...

[writeway]

I've seen a drop in returns. I thought, and hoped, it was because of Amazon's efforts. Oh well...

Hopefully, those seeing a drop in returns will continue to but yes, apparently this has started up again at least that's what authors who have been hit lately are saying. I never got a lot of returns myself. I just don't know how people expect Amazon to stop this completely. We all know if thieves (which they are if they wanna read and return) and scammers wanna do something bad enough, nothing will stop them. When I bought two ebooks last month and the month before, I was given a date I had to return it if I had to make a return and the window would close after that date. I just ordered an ebook today and I noticed I don't see anything about a return window. Now I wonder if Amazon is still even implementing the policy and whether or not this new rewards system thing has something to do with how they're handling returns or even if it's influencing returns.

[She-la-te-da]

Had a feeling it wouldn't last long. Amazon doesn't want to upset customers, even if they're bad customers. It doesn't cost them to get a return, but it costs us. And it's pretty clear that we don't really matter.

[TimothyEllis]

I just don't know how people expect Amazon to stop this completely.

By reducing the return window to something like 4 hours.

After that, you can still do it, but it has to go through an actual return process. With an approval attached. Of course the whole process will take weeks to happen.

4 hours is all someone needs to reverse a pushing the wrong button thing, or getting 20% in and realizing the book wasn't what you thought it was.

The other thing they should be doing is totaling up the returns, and any more than 1 a month gets flagged, and any more than 3 a month gets your ability to return suspended.

The majority of people will be unaffected, because they don't return books, even if they decide they didn't like them.

[Post-Crisis D]

4 hours is all someone needs to reverse a pushing the wrong button thing, or getting 20% in and realizing the book wasn't what you thought it was.

That's assuming people read the books right away.  I would guess that, like me, a good number of people don't.

[TimothyEllis]

4 hours is all someone needs to reverse a pushing the wrong button thing, or getting 20% in and realizing the book wasn't what you thought it was.

That's assuming people read the books right away.  I would guess that, like me, a good number of people don't.

I'm not sure I relate to that.

The whole reason for buying a book is so you can read it immediately.

If you don't want to read it right now, why bother buying it now?

Bookshops, yeah, you bought what you saw at the time, because it might not be there next time, and you didn't know when next time would be a lot of the time.

But on Amazon? It's always there. And delivery is immediate. Why buy before you intend to read?

[cecilia_writer]

I buy books frequently before I have time to read them. There are various reasons - the book's on special offer, or I've been waiting for it to come out, or I don't want to forget about it, or I'm afraid of running out of books to read when I'm in a siuation where I can't download another one....

[Post-Crisis D]

Books are not always available on Amazon either.  I have books (eBooks) that are no longer available to buy or download on Amazon.  If I had waited to buy, I might not have been able to get them.

[TimothyEllis]

Okay, but how does that change the need for a week long return period, or a 4 hour return period?

It seems to me that the reason for buying and not reading negate the ability to return anyway.

So it won't make any difference to you if it becomes 4 hours to return.

[Post-Crisis D]

Let me put it a different way.

I'm not a serial refunder.  I'm not a scammer.  I'm a legitimate, paying customer.  If Amazon, or any company, is going to reduce the period in which I can return an eBook to four hours after purchase, they can take their eBooks and stuff them where the sun doesn't shine and I will shop elsewhere.

Companies frequently make changes, arguing such changes are to fight scams or crooks or whatever, but often they do more to inconvenience legitimate customers than they do what they were intended to accomplish.  I, for one, am tired of it.

Amazon especially ought to be able to sort out serial refunders from legitimate customers.  If not, it's either because they don't care to do so or because their coders aren't up to the task.

[TimothyEllis]

Let me put it a different way.

I'm not a serial refunder.  I'm not a scammer.  I'm a legitimate, paying customer.  If Amazon, or any company, is going to reduce the period in which I can return an eBook to four hours after purchase, they can take their eBooks and stuff them where the sun doesn't shine and I will shop elsewhere.

Companies frequently make changes, arguing such changes are to fight scams or crooks or whatever, but often they do more to inconvenience legitimate customers than they do what they were intended to accomplish.  I, for one, am tired of it.

Amazon especially ought to be able to sort out serial refunders from legitimate customers.  If not, it's either because they don't care to do so or because their coders aren't up to the task.

How does it make any difference to you though?

How often do you return a book?

How often do you buy a book and not read it within the existing returns period?

If most of the time, then a shorter period makes no difference to you at all.

The only time I've ever returned a book is when I hit one click pay instead of download sample, and then didn't like it, and would have rejected it from the sample.

And I did the return within 10 minutes of the buy.

I'm still a you bought it, you own it person, even if I ditch it part way through. And that does happen every now and then.

And I've bought 99c bundles and ditched them in the middle of book 1, and never even thought of getting a refund. I ditched a series in the middle of book 2 having already bought book 3. I didn't get a refund on 2 or 3. Price of not doing due diligence before buying. Now I do.

[Post-Crisis D]

It's not a matter of how often you return things.  It's a matter of being able to return something when you need to do so.

Refund policies are a factor to consider before buying.  If a company doesn't have a good return policy, I'm not buying.

Four hours is not a good return policy.  If anything, it would be a red flag that you do not want to buy from that company.

[TimothyEllis]

It's not a matter of how often you return things.  It's a matter of being able to return something when you need to do so.

Refund policies are a factor to consider before buying.  If a company doesn't have a good return policy, I'm not buying.

Four hours is not a good return policy.  If anything, it would be a red flag that you do not want to buy from that company.

So my local book store doesn't allow returns for "I didn't like the story" reasons. Just for defective books.

Why do you demand a long return period from Amazon when you accept no return at all from the local bookstore? (And I'm not talking paperbacks on Amazon either.)

[Post-Crisis D]

What makes you think a four hour return period is going to deter serial refunders?  In all likelihood, they will either read faster or learn how to return the book while keeping a copy of it.  Either way, they will still be a problem.

Meanwhile, how many sales will you lose from actual paying customers who do not like the four hour return period?  Additionally, you will probably face an increase in one star reviews from people unhappy they cannot return the book because they got busy with the kids or phone calls or whatever and just missed the return window.  They didn't like the book, didn't think it matched the description and now can't return it.  They are probably going to be motivated to leave a bad review to warn others.

So, you'll probably end up with fewer sales, more one star reviews and the serial refunders will continue to be a problem.

As a customer, a four hour return window is of no benefit to me.  As an author, I don't think it would be a benefit to me.

[TimothyEllis]

Meanwhile, how many sales will you lose from actual paying customers who do not like the four hour return period?

Here's a question for you.

How many people who buy eBooks on Amazon actually know there IS a refund period?

Of them, how many even know how to?

Meanwhile, how many sales will you lose from actual paying customers who do not like the four hour return period?  Additionally, you will probably face an increase in one star reviews from people unhappy they cannot return the book because they got busy with the kids or phone calls or whatever and just missed the return window.  They didn't like the book, didn't think it matched the description and now can't return it.  They are probably going to be motivated to leave a bad review to warn others.

Again, why should Amazon be different to the local bookshop at all? You buy the book, but that's it. You might be able to exchange it for another one, but they keep the money. And unless the book is actually damaged, there is no return policy, just maybe an exchange policy. Why should Amazon be any different for eBooks?

Honestly, I know one star reviews happen in products when the deliverers stuff up, and people are that stupid they can't tell the difference, but...

Why should anyone blame an author or a book for a return policy on the platform?

That isn't rational.

As far as the serial refunders go, the tighter the window to be able to do it, the hard you make it for them to do it.

And granted they might just be side copying and then returning, but that's got to be part of the policy. People who do it more than 3 times a month get the returns facility removed from them.

[LilyBLily]

When I worked in bookstores, people came in all the time to return books, both hardcovers and paperbacks. We accepted returns with receipts and sometimes without. I think this is a little-known fact, but bookstores do. Few people abused that system, although there was an occasional scammer who hadn't bought the books from us who tried to "return" them anyway. (How could we tell? The ISBNs weren't in our system, and the person doing the return was not someone we'd seen before or didn't fit our usual customer profile. Any retail establishment has both a repeat clientele and a typical customer profile.)

I agree about the "All sales final" thing. There's a discount clothing store that has lots of interesting items in addition to clothes, but it never accepts returns for refund, only for store credit. Consequently, I almost never shop there.

[Post-Crisis D]

Here's a question for you.

How many people who buy eBooks on Amazon actually know there IS a refund period?

Of them, how many even know how to?

Doesn't matter.  Let's say 80% don't.  Then 20% do.  Of those, maybe half won't like the new return policy and stop buying.  That means a 10% drop in sales because of a policy that won't accomplish its intent.

Why should anyone blame an author or a book for a return policy on the platform?

That isn't rational.

Do you believe people are rational?  Have you ever used the Internet?  Seen the results of an election?  Spent time on Twitter?  Watched a talk show?  Seen an episode of Jerry Springer?

As far as the serial refunders go, the tighter the window to be able to do it, the hard you make it for them to do it.

And granted they might just be side copying and then returning, but that's got to be part of the policy. People who do it more than 3 times a month get the returns facility removed from them.

If you want to make things harder on nefarious characters, use DRM on your books.

[TimothyEllis]

If you want to make things harder on nefarious characters, use DRM on your books.

That stops no-one who's serious.

That was abundantly clear back in 2015.

[Anarchist]

If I had my druthers, I'd want Amazon to create a simple algo that flags bad actors.

For example:

IF

# of ebook purchases > 4 per month

AND

% of ebook purchases returned over past 6 months > 50%

THEN

prohibit customer from purchasing ebooks for 30 days

If customer's purchase/return behavior repeats after 30 days, prohibit customer from purchasing ebooks for 90 days

And so on until the customer is prohibited from purchasing ebooks going forward.

[LilyBLily]

Good idea and Amazon could do it, but Amazon wants people to come to the store and books are a loss leader to entice much more expensive purchases.

[TimothyEllis]

If I had my druthers, I'd want Amazon to create a simple algo that flags bad actors.

For example:

IF

# of ebook purchases > 4 per month

AND

% of ebook purchases returned over past 6 months > 50%

THEN

prohibit customer from purchasing ebooks for 30 days

If customer's purchase/return behavior repeats after 30 days, prohibit customer from purchasing ebooks for 90 days

And so on until the customer is prohibited from purchasing ebooks going forward.

I'd just replace purchasing with returning in that.

[elleoco]

My understanding is that it's the easy, no excuses return that Amazon's adjusting. You can still return with a reason. Is that wrong?

I've returned ebooks occasionally, and I've been out of the return period and had to give reasons. Very unusual for me. I almost always download and read right away, but stuff happens. I remember actually talking to someone at Amazon once. For me it's not a matter of just not liking the book. There has to be something unexpected that really makes me mad. Since I don't generally purchase books by a new to me author, we're talking an author I know and have expectations for really going off in a direction that offends.

For non-book things, I have sometimes purchased from Amazon instead of somewhere with a lower price just because Amazon won't give me grief over a return if it's necessary.

[Arooooo]

I don't understand what these serial returners are thinking. If you don't want to pay for a book, why not just pirate it? Why go through the bother of buying it, paying for it, then returning it and getting your money back? That's just... so many unnecessary extra steps to theft. 

[LilyBLily]

I don't understand what these serial returners are thinking. If you don't want to pay for a book, why not just pirate it? Why go through the bother of buying it, paying for it, then returning it and getting your money back? That's just... so many unnecessary extra steps to theft.

This is safer than visiting pirate bay (or should that be in caps: Pirate Bay?). They have the same desire not to pay as others, but they aren't daring enough to venture into the wilds of the net to find free things. Now that someone has given them a safe roadmap, they're all in.