Now I know why I will never get a BookBub

[LilyBLily]

On the ever helpful partners blog, BookBub gives nine reasons a book was rejected:

https://insights.bookbub.com/reasons-book-rejected-bookbub-featured-deal

My problem is #7--not enough platform, specifically reviews. So we have that famous chicken-egg conundrum: Not enough sales to interest BookBub in increasing my books' sales, not enough reviews to interest BookBub in increasing my books' review count.

I guess I can use that thousand dollars I won't be spending on a BookBub ad for a lot of Facebook ads or something. Or maybe I'm supposed to hunt up and pay for a couple hundred reviews. That's a great use of ad money, just give the book away to a thousand people and hope I get a hundred new reviews. Or two hundred. Actually, it's hard to find a service that can give away that many books on the direct hope/assumption the recipient will review it. Straight book giveaways have not worked for me at all; I can give away a couple thousand books and get zero reviews.

Last week I had 23 requests for a free copy of one of my titles through a company that says it has a 75% review rate. So far, no new reviews. In my personal experience, if I don't read a book as soon as I download it, I probably won't read it ever, so I am not hopeful that 75% will apply to my book.

I'm committed to asking BookBub once a month every month this year, anyway. They might have an off moment and want my thousand dollars after all.

[notthatamanda]

I just applied today too. It's kind of a hail Mary at this point.

[Anarchist]

Nobody wants to be the first to arrive at a party. If a book has few reviews, few people will feel inclined to leave one.

One reason is exposure. Another is apathy.

If you have an ultra-responsive audience on a mailing list, you can launch and see 100+ reviews within a week (or even a couple days). Or you can rely on an ARC list. Or better still, do both.

If you can launch with 100 reviews, new readers will feel inclined to leave reviews. Once the book receives several hundred reviews, and assuming it continues to sell well, the reviews really start to pile in.

Having said that, I have no plans to submit to BB in the near future. I had one a couple years ago. It did well. I made money. But of course, the tail gradually eroded over the following weeks.

Today, I spend nearly all of my advertising time and money on AMS.

[Simon Haynes]

The lack of reviews is a bit misleading. I've had bookbubs on a box set with 4 reviews, and bookbubs on single books with less than 20 (and at the time, a 3.5 average to boot. It was the first part of a trilogy, and a few people whinged that it was the first part of a trilogy.)

Keep applying is my advice. It costs nothing except a few minutes of your time.

[alhawke]

I've had a book with only 3 reviews land on BookBub. I've applied around 30x and been accepted 3x over the past 2 yrs (2 LGBT (one intl only); 1 sci-fi).

Two things I'd  consider. They're expensive. Yes you get a ton of sales, but you're paying for it. A sci fi BB cost me over $750. My budgeting last year put me in the doldrums this week (it's tax time).

Another is predictability. You can't focus your marketing on them because they might or might not take you.

I'm usually accepted when I really don't expect to be. Case in point was my sci fi one. I really thought they would never accept the book. It had 23 reviews. But they did. A year before that I was accepted with 3 reviews AFTER I already did a launch promotion sale a month before. The BB was powerful enough to still be worth it the following month.

Keep applying. It doesn't hurt. And whatever the situation, it's always worth it (if you can afford it). It's certainly fun to watch 2 or 3 sales come in within one minute in the morning.

[Simon Haynes]

I've applied 23 times since 2018, and I've been accepted 6 times. Of those I think 3 were international only.

[notthatamanda]

Applied 80 times, accepted twice, intl only. The second one I didn't even make back the $200 bucks it cost me.

[LilyBLily]

Based on where my sales usually happen, I don't see international as a significant market for any of my fiction. The international ad that BookBub occasionally may offer to some people won't be useful to me. I'm not going to apply for it. I don't need another disappointing and expensive ad experience.



 

[Simon Haynes]

Bear in mind humour+sf and humour+fantasy are relatively niche genres. The number of authors active in those genres would be in the low double digits - like 15-20 at a guess, and many of them only seem to have one or two books.

If you write and publish in a genre with a lot more competition, I'd imagine that it's much harder to get a bookbub. In their information pages, they mention that they consider how recently they promoted a similar title to the one being submitted.

[LilyBLily]

Contemporary romance (I don't think BookBub even has a Western contemporary romance category) is hugely competitive. I've occasionally submitted a contemporary but am not surprised those have been turned down.

These days I only submit women's fiction, which is also very competitive. All my women's fiction is wide. I've been building up my list and later this year will actually turn some of my women's fiction into a soft series. By that I mean something similar to "A Lowcountry Novel" or "A Southern Novel" as a subtitle. Possibly with a number but maybe not. I'm not ready to investigate that yet.

[PaulineMRoss]

Bookbubs are (mostly) awesome. Some people have misses with niche genres or the international-only, but generally speaking, they're still good. My first Bookbub was one of those unforgettable experiences (like the first orange bestseller flag, or the first time in the top 1000 ranking, or the first sale to someone who isn't your mate or your mum). I've had 9 altogether, and they've all done well. The last one was on 26th December, just two weeks after a new release, and the tail from that is still going strong and will probably last to the next release in three weeks.

My genre (Regency romance) is less competitive than some because they tend to have two every day, one free and one at 99c, so there's twice as many chances to get in. When I was trying to flog my epic fantasies, there was only one of those a day, and not every day, so there's far less of a shot at it. I don't have any particular tips, except that I've had a much better acceptance rate since I stopped applying routinely and only tried every three months or so. It took me 60 tries to get my first, but now I get accepted every two or three tries. It's definitely worth persevering!

[Simon Haynes]

I'm still chasing a first bookbub for my middle-grade series.  I know it's a very small market (you can tell by the cost of a worldwide BB in that category), but I'm stubborn.  The paperbacks for that series have been flying out for the past 3-4 months, mostly due to my AMS efforts in the UK and US, but it would still be nice to give the series a kick up the charts.

I've never applied for a BB with my mil SF or gaslamp fantasy books. Both have 2 books out with a series of 3 planned, and both of those unwritten books are next in my plans. I sort of wanted to wait until there were three before I applied for a BB, to maximise sellthrough, but if I got a BB on either it would be all the motivation I needed to leap into writing #3.

[notthatamanda]

I think there's a downward trend in all the paid newsletters promos and it may be as simple as people lost interest in them.

[Eric Thomson]

I think there's a downward trend in all the paid newsletters promos and it may be as simple as people lost interest in them.

I would hazard that the market is over-saturated with newsletter promos at this point. Everyone and his dancing banana is launching a new promo service every two minutes, hoping it's the path to easy riches. I know I get a lot of them, and read perhaps 10%, if that, and only if something catches my eye.

[notthatamanda]

Oh I agree. So many paid newsletters.

What discount strategy with Google ads, if you don't mind me asking. Using google promo codes? I'm thinking of using those for the first time to discount my WWII book as the sequel will be released in April.

[notthatamanda]

Thanks for the response. Yes google play promo codes. On the dash for google play you have access to this:

Create promo codes to offer customers a free or discounted book without lowering the book’s list price. Learn more about this new marketing tool.

I haven't investigated it fully yet. I'm planning on using my personal mailing list to email a promo code for my WWII book to see if I can jump start something that way.

I'm kind of mixing together google play and google ads, sorry.  Google ads question - can you set your bid on google ads to what ever you want? I had trouble with that when I tried google ads, going on 2 years ago.

[alhawke]

I think there's a downward trend in all the paid newsletters promos and it may be as simple as people lost interest in them.

I think people tire with the day to day subscriptions. My thing is gathering all the email promotions every morning and clicking delete. I'm subscribed to about eight of them. It's not that I'm not interested, sometimes I browse, I like to do it, particularly the BookBubs, it's just ...
And I'm sure I'm not the only one.

But we all know BookBub tends to be worth our time. I contacted a new cover artist after admiring a cover a couple months ago from a BB email.

[notthatamanda]

Just curious. Is there a reason why you will only offer discounts to Google Play customers, or do you plan to have a similar promo style offer for all platforms? I've never used promo codes, so I don't know if every platform has the same kind of code.

I've set Google Ads as low as $5 a day (you can go lower) and I doubt there is an upper limit. ;)

If you're having trouble setting it up, I recommend you contact Google support and ask for a marketing appointment. The Google person will call you at the time you nominate and ask you share screen access (it's an online Google meeting, so they can see your screen and guide you step-by-step -- the call center is in India and the guy I spoke to was very helpful).

I don't tend to launch books anymore. I run a continuous campaign one way or another and it's not expensive. There seems to be a baseline of sales I get without doing anything and campaigns bump up those sales -- the usual thing, the more I promote, the more I sell.

My understanding of it is it is a Google play promo code. It won't work anywhere else. I just did my first email list mailing ever a couple of weeks ago and sent my list a promo code for Kobo. Since it is a promo code you don't have to lower the prices on the platform or worry about getting matched by Amazon. I have only ever sent one email to my 13 email list subscribers so I am by no means an expert.

I assume when you say $5/day for the google ad you are talking about the campaign budget. I was never able to set the actual bid amount. Do you mind sharing how you do that? From what I remember you could bid 42 cents or let google pick it, but I may be remembering it wrong.

[notthatamanda]

Cheap = less than 42 cents? I will have to get back into the google ad dash and poke around. Not today, but thank you for your help.

[R. C.]

...
For some reason, Google Ads doesn't work the same in Firefox.  This is based on using Edge.
...

I don't know about Edge but I can tell you, with certainty, Google Ads DOES NOT present the same all the time.

I use Chrome for Google Ads and have come to one rule: When in doubt use CTRL-F5.

Every time I CTRL-F5 the refreshed page updates with corrected numbers.  In "sub-menus" the menu options are hit-and-miss: CTRL-F5.

I find Google ADs very difficult to use, obtuse, and designed to eat budgets.  Their "recommendations" and "suggestions" are so far out in left field, they are pointless.

Cheers,
R.C.

P.S. - Out in left field is an Americanism derived from Baseball. It means way the heck over there!

P.P.S. - I have to turn OFF my VPN to get Google ADs to work at all.

[notthatamanda]

I just applied today too. It's kind of a hail Mary at this point.

Rejected. 24 hours from submission to rejection and they emailed me on a Saturday.

[LilyBLily]

I just applied today too. It's kind of a hail Mary at this point.

Rejected. 24 hours from submission to rejection and they emailed me on a Saturday.

 

They do their newsletter seven days a week so someone must have a Saturday shift. I wonder if there's any variation in acceptances on weekends, the way there's a variance at Amazon on what is erotica or what can't be on an ad?

[Doglover]

Applied 80 times, accepted twice, intl only. The second one I didn't even make back the $200 bucks it cost me.

So, does international mean the rest of the world but not the USA?

I've never applied for a Bookbub, but the thing that bothers me about that list is the page count thing. Amazon have a strange idea of page count; my latest book's kindle version shows more than a hundred pages less than the identical print version. Every time I have to write to Amazon asking them to match the page count properly.

I'm also bothered by the cost. And is it really worth it any more? I mean, now we have Facebook ads and Amazon ads and even Bookbub itself are selling ad space, is the featured deal the golden egg it was to start with?

Having read the requirements, I am not about to go wide for anyone. I make a vast majority of my income from page reads. I tried wide before a couple of times and got absolutely nowhere.

[Doglover]

Just looking at the Bookbub submission. It is asking me if I publish my audio books traditionally or independently. I have no idea what that means. I publish through ACX; which one is that?

They go on a lot about covers, yet the covers on their home page for readers are not my idea of wonderful.

[PaulineMRoss]

Just looking at the Bookbub submission. It is asking me if I publish my audio books traditionally or independently. I have no idea what that means. I publish through ACX; which one is that?

Traditionally means you have a deal with someone like Podium or Tantor to produce your audiobooks. Independently means you got it done yourself, either paying upfront or royalty share.

I'm also bothered by the cost. And is it really worth it any more? I mean, now we have Facebook ads and Amazon ads and even Bookbub itself are selling ad space, is the featured deal the golden egg it was to start with?

For me, the answer is unequivocally YES. A Bookbub featured deal for my genre (historical romance) for a free book is under $500, and for the last one I made that back in a couple of days from ebook sales, page reads and audio sales. I'm still seeing a distinct tail 8 weeks later. That's a particularly good result, but even a bad Bookbub is hugely profitable for me.

BUT it does vary by genre and by particular book/author, and there's general agreement that a Bookbub is not what it was in the heady days of 5 or 6 years ago. It used to be a career maker. Now, it's just a very profitable promotion (at best). You really won't know until you try it. And you don't have to be wide, but in some genres it's almost impossible to get one unless you are.

[notthatamanda]

Applied 80 times, accepted twice, intl only. The second one I didn't even make back the $200 bucks it cost me.

So, does international mean the rest of the world but not the USA?

I've never applied for a Bookbub, but the thing that bothers me about that list is the page count thing. Amazon have a strange idea of page count; my latest book's kindle version shows more than a hundred pages less than the identical print version. Every time I have to write to Amazon asking them to match the page count properly.

I'm also bothered by the cost. And is it really worth it any more? I mean, now we have Facebook ads and Amazon ads and even Bookbub itself are selling ad space, is the featured deal the golden egg it was to start with?

Having read the requirements, I am not about to go wide for anyone. I make a vast majority of my income from page reads. I tried wide before a couple of times and got absolutely nowhere.

An Intl only is the UK, India, Australia and Canada.

If you have audiobooks I did make my money back on a Findaway/Chirp/Bookbub. I would do that again, except I'm not doing audio again for a while. Those you submit through Findaway.

[Crystal]

BookBub is really not the career maker it once was. I had some 2016 BookBubs that made 3-20x their fee, but in the last few years, my BookBubs have mostly broken even or, maybe, made 2x their fee. The sellthrough just isn't there.

I hear it's better wide and better with Free vs .99 BookBubs, but I haven't had good luck getting Free BookBubs in some time. I wouldn't turn down a BookBub, but I wouldn't plan around one either. Just keep submitting different books, on the timelines they allow. Eventually, you'll get one.

Of course, I can only seem to get new adult 'Bubs. I don't know what you have to do to get one in erotic romance. I hear they're better, but I don't expect to get one... ever.

[LilyBLily]

I make the assumption that BookBub is doing all this nagging overmarketing because in fact readers do not click as much anymore. They aren't the only discount newsletter in town.

It could be, however, that readers are clicking but are favoring trad pub backlist titles over indie titles. It would be lovely if someone who was trad pubbed and had a BookBub could provide us with figures or even with a sense of how successful the ads are, but my bet is that they are not privy to the results at all and they may not even know how much or how little the trad pub pays for the ads--which could be on a different tier than the pricing for indies.

An opposite possibility is that BookBub's increasing space given to backlist trad pub books has made its original core readers less interested in their newsletters. Those books are already in the public library and some are available to borrow as ebooks. Do I need to buy a 30-year-old Ellis Peters mystery through BookBub? Probably not. 

Or it simply could be that there is a lot of competition today and readers are choosier. I know as a reader there was a moment years ago when suddenly there were more Regency romances published per month than I could read. I could afford to buy them all (I had a job!), but there were too many to read and I quickly discovered some were inferior. It made me back away from all of them. The same happened with contemporary romances. Too many? Stick with well-known and trusted authors. However, that does not account for diminishing returns for indie authors who have been around for a while, does it?

Maybe someone else has some insights into why the BookBub trend is down.

[notthatamanda]

Interesting.

I'd add to the thinking that performance of all paid eshots appear to be declining and that's been true for years. This downward trend isn't just BookBub. BookBub invested heavily in 2014/15 to build up the huge mail list they have today. I suspect they're suffering from the same thing that's taken down the other paid eshot providers, it just wasn't as visible as quickly because their mail lists are so large.

I suspect the same. I think email fatigue is part of it.

[notthatamanda]

I was going to make the same point about the ordering and the email. Some places send you multiple ones a day.

I just talked to my kid (15).  She gets youtube notifications when the (mom's note - idiot) youtubers she like posts a new video. Those pop up on her phone. She also gets notications on her phone when someone emails her - once every two to three weeks. We've got a whole generation of potential readers who don't use email at all or at least avoid it. I think what makes the most sense is (following the youtube model) is having people subscribe to notifications and they will pop up on their phone. For example, someone follows an author they like on Kobo and signs up for notifications. When the author has a new release a notification can pop up on their phone.

Getting off topic, sorry.

[Anarchist]

But I have been trying to understand why BookBub isn't performing anymore. Are they losing subscribers? Is there a general trend against indies or Amazon books or books in general? Are people just fed up with getting emails?

In my opinion, it's an effect of supply and demand.

There are countless books offered for sale or $0.99. Meanwhile, people like myself have limited time to read. So, I glance through the daily BB email. If something catches my eye, I'll click.

I won't download or buy if the book...

• has fewer than 50 reviews
• has a review average lower than 4.3
• is part of a series and not book #1
• is part of a series that is not complete

I have other criteria, but will keep them to myself lest I offend someone.

The point is, books have to get through a lot of filters to get my download/purchase. I'm sure many other readers follow a similar practice.

When producers create a glut of supply, customers become more discriminating in their choices.

[LilyBLily]

Side note: The largest groups of readers are not young. They're people who have to use email at work or used to before they retired and they use email at home, too. The young who grow up to get decent jobs will find themselves forced to use email because that's a form of documentation that the employer owns and insists on. I think the concern that people won't use email in the future is unwarranted--for now, anyway.

[Simon Haynes]

My current intl bookbub is for a wide, 99c title. I had one in December for a KU exclusive 99c title. The wide one, despite this only being day 3, has sold twice as many copies** as the KU exclusive one did. Rank is Amazon, Kobo, Google, Apple, B&N*

*still waiting for B&N figs.

**treating both books as identical commodities here, which is obviously not the case

It's possible a US BB would have a different outcome, but I can only report on whatever figures I have.  Bear in mind I promo-stacked with the same sites both times.

The result of the wide BB does support my decision to leave KU, in my opinion.

[notthatamanda]

Well congrats on your latest bookbub Simon.

With the amount of entries bookbub gets I'm surprised they are accepting books with less than a 4.3 review rating.

[Simon Haynes]

Mine only has a 3.9, but a lot of the 1* are complaining that it's 'book one in a trilogy'

That died down a lot after I put a graphic on the first or second page explaining what a trilogy was, with the help of some cover thumbnails and big friendly arrows.

Earlier this year I included the first chapter from books 2 & 3 in the previous book, so they could SEE that it continued.

[Post-Crisis D]

Side note: The largest groups of readers are not young. They're people who have to use email at work or used to before they retired and they use email at home, too. The young who grow up to get decent jobs will find themselves forced to use email because that's a form of documentation that the employer owns and insists on. I think the concern that people won't use email in the future is unwarranted--for now, anyway.

I've been hearing that people don't use eMail anymore for like ten or more years now. 

When people stop putting eMail addresses on their business cards, then maybe I'll believe it.

[notthatamanda]

IANAL but I think there are probably good legal reasons to use email in business correspondence.

The question is can some platform (Walmart?) get people who prefer text and like to read get people to sign up for text notifications for deals on books or new releases by favorite authors to be notified on their phone? Will that become the next generation email newsletter promo thingy?

Are any other types of businesses doing this? I wouldn't know. I go to great pains not to give out my cellphone number. Ten years ago, more, my friend put my number in some service that texted me any time she walked into a CVS or Target. I was pissed. Managed to ask nicely to get her to take me off the list. She was getting points for it or something.

Side note - I went poking around Walmart to see if they added a notification when they sent you to Kobo, but instead of finding that I found that one of my titles is wrong. It's bizarre. Picture the cover and description of The Hunger Games with a Title like "Ancient Egyptian Myths and Legends."

[Anarchist]

Side note: The largest groups of readers are not young. They're people who have to use email at work or used to before they retired and they use email at home, too. The young who grow up to get decent jobs will find themselves forced to use email because that's a form of documentation that the employer owns and insists on. I think the concern that people won't use email in the future is unwarranted--for now, anyway.

I've been hearing that people don't use eMail anymore for like ten or more years now. 

When people stop putting eMail addresses on their business cards, then maybe I'll believe it.

When people stop joining my lists, emailing me to discuss my books and emails (and share weirdly intimate details about their lives), and clicking my links to buy my stuff, I'll believe it.

[notthatamanda]

For me it's more about that there are people out there who don't want to use email and we are not reaching them. It doesn't mean we have to give up on using email, it means there is a potential untapped audience.

[Post-Crisis D]

The question is can some platform (Walmart?) get people who prefer text and like to read get people to sign up for text notifications for deals on books or new releases by favorite authors to be notified on their phone? Will that become the next generation email newsletter promo thingy?

Are any other types of businesses doing this? I wouldn't know. I go to great pains not to give out my cellphone number. Ten years ago, more, my friend put my number in some service that texted me any time she walked into a CVS or Target. I was pissed. Managed to ask nicely to get her to take me off the list. She was getting points for it or something.

I think that would be a problem too.  I mean, there is more or less a finite number of phone numbers.  That is, you can't just make one up.  And, if you change numbers, odds are you'll get a number someone else used previously and end up getting a lot of junk calls directed at them.  For example, at the office, we switched phone providers a number of years ago and what they did was map our numbers to new numbers so we could keep our numbers.  But, those numbers our numbers mapped/forwarded to were numbers previously used by someone else.  So, for years, there were collection calls for people that never worked here and it seems no matter what you do you cannot get those collection agencies to stop calling.  And then the debt gets sold and different collection agencies start calling.  Those calls stopped when we switched phone providers again a year or so ago.  Finally.

With eMail, on the other hand, the potential combinations are infinite.  So, if you start getting too much junk eMail at one address, you can change your eMail to something else.  Now, with phone numbers, since there is a finite number of them, junk callers can guess your number.  With eMail, spammers use dictionary attacks where they will use common words and proper names to guess at eMail addresses.  If you avoid such combinations, and use something like author2371@whatever.dom, it's darned near impossible for them to guess it and they would likely only obtain it if you used it somewhere that was hacked or sold or if they scraped it from a site you'd posted on using it.

Bottom line is that it's easier to filter junk and spam from eMail than from phone numbers.

Maybe one day, someone will create the best of both worlds, like an eMail address that can be used for eMail, texting and phone calls, similar to how a phone number can be used for texts and calls.

[notthatamanda]

Oh boy do I know that. Someone named Abigal had my phone number before me and I still get a couple of spam texts a month for her. In the beginning it was relentless.

Legitimate businesses do ask for your cell phone (eg doctor's offices to text appointment reminders). Whether people want more stuff on their phone is a personal choice. You make a lot of good points, Dan.

But as paid, third party, email promo newsletters become less effective I do wonder what the next big thing will be.

[LilyBLily]

I don't write for young people. They can just grow up and learn to use email.

 

Seriously, chasing a market that is anti words in actual punctuated sentences does not strike me as a good way to sell my books. Which, you know, have lots of words in actual punctuated sentences.

 

[notthatamanda]

Well with the decline of the third party, paid, email promo and not being able to get the ball rolling on AMS to save my life, I'd really like some other options. Still working on my personal mailing list (2 new subscribers this week).  I'll dip back into google ads eventually.

[Doglover]

Well with the decline of the third party, paid, email promo and not being able to get the ball rolling on AMS to save my life, I'd really like some other options. Still working on my personal mailing list (2 new subscribers this week).  I'll dip back into google ads eventually.

I've had more success with Facebook ads than anything else.

[notthatamanda]

Thanks. I am of the "no way I'm getting sucked into Facebook" tribe, at my own peril, I realize.

Also, I do know kids/teens/young adults who are big readers. Just not my kids. :( But they don't use email unless forced too.

[notthatamanda]

Thanks, I'm actually wide too. Right now I'm doing a light edit on my first trilogy and adding my website and mailing list to the end of it. I have to do that to most of my books. Once that's done I'll do a bknights on it. Cheap and usually good for a couple of hundred downloads. I'll see if that gets me any mailing list subscribers.

Tackling google ads again is definitely on my list and I may try to do it for my April release.

Side complaint - got a one page page read this month. I realize someone could have had the book since I left KU completely (2018) but there is at least a chance they could have read it in page flip and I get nothing so I'm steaming over that again.

[notthatamanda]

First in trilogy permafree was a dependable 200-300 downloads for bknights for me. I think they do well for romance, which the trilogy is. I used to start my stacked promos with that one when I was in KU and do 5 days of promos a quarter to get it pushed up in the ranks. Then books two and three would sell and those would stay in the top 100 paid ranks and keep the tail going once the first book reverted back to paid.

I tried a couple of 99 cent ones with bknights and it wasn't good, they actually contacted me to refund my money they felt so bad about it.

I like working with the Written Word people, but free and bargain booksy have gotten more expensive and diminishing returns.

So we'll see how it goes, I should be running the bknights sometime in March, if I can stay motivated on the edit, almost done with book 2.

[Doglover]

Thanks. I am of the "no way I'm getting sucked into Facebook" tribe, at my own peril, I realize.

Also, I do know kids/teens/young adults who are big readers. Just not my kids. :( But they don't use email unless forced too.

Okay, your choice. I'm running a free Booksy and Booksends for a free first in series this week, so I'll let you know. I'm still waiting to hear from EReader News Today.

[Doglover]

Hope it goes well!

Thanks. So do I. I've never done a promotion like this before. I've always done Facebook ads, but I'm saving my money till I get paid from Amazon at the end of March. I know a really successful writer who uses these sorts of promotions all the time, so let's hope. I don't know how long ENT will take to get back to me.

[notthatamanda]

If I remember correctly, ENT might not notify you if you don't get accepted. Not 100% sure. Good luck and thanks for offering to share the results.

[Doglover]

If I remember correctly, ENT might not notify you if you don't get accepted. Not 100% sure. Good luck and thanks for offering to share the results.

Well, I'm not holding my breath. They'll want paying if they do run it!

[Eric Thomson]

If I remember correctly, ENT might not notify you if you don't get accepted. Not 100% sure. Good luck and thanks for offering to share the results.

True dat. The last time I inquired after hearing nothing about my submission for two weeks, I got a snippy, unprofessional reply. I crossed ENT off my list for good that day.

[Doglover]

If I remember correctly, ENT might not notify you if you don't get accepted. Not 100% sure. Good luck and thanks for offering to share the results.

True dat. The last time I inquired after hearing nothing about my submission for two weeks, I got a snippy, unprofessional reply. I crossed ENT off my list for good that day.

Well, I've never tried them before so I'll wait and see. I still have the other two.

[Doglover]

If I remember correctly, ENT might not notify you if you don't get accepted. Not 100% sure. Good luck and thanks for offering to share the results.

As promised, I ran the first of my six book time slip series yesterday. I used Freebooksy, Booksends and EReader News Today.

I had 2,500 free downloads, 8,300 page reads and 76 sales, most of which were the rest of the series. Of the page reads, over 2,000 were for a historical six book series that I had advertised before. Also, those page reads are the amount I usually get in a day, but they might pick up later on. So, I am very pleased with those results. I am thinking there are probably people who haven't yet read their newsletters from the providers, so fingers crossed today will be good as well.

Just as an aside, I haven't tried any promotion sites before, except an obscure one who picked up my book when they got started. I don't think they caught on because they don't seem to appear anywhere anymore.

[notthatamanda]

Congratulations on the results and thanks for sharing them.

[Doglover]

Congratulations on the results and thanks for sharing them.

No problem. Now let's see how it keeps up!

[notthatamanda]

What did you get for ranks, if you don't mind sharing. Hopefully the sales on books 2 and on will get you some nice ranks there, so even if the first book reverts back to paid that will help keep the visibility.

[Doglover]

What did you get for ranks, if you don't mind sharing. Hopefully the sales on books 2 and on will get you some nice ranks there, so even if the first book reverts back to paid that will help keep the visibility.

I never look at ranks, but I'll have a peek.

Book 2 is 16,500 in the whole US store, 69 in time Travel Fiction. Book 3 is 20,000 or so in the whole store and 148 in Occult Horror for some unknown reason.

Book one, which was the promotion, is number 52 in the whole store free No.1 in Historical mystery and thriller and No. 1 in occult horror.

I didn't put the book in those categories at all. They were all in sci-fi time travel fiction.

[notthatamanda]

Side note - you can email author central and give them the book categories you want to be in, if that interests you.

The ranks are interesting. I can't remember exactly the data from when the free lists were clogged with botted books but I think that now even though paid, email newsletter promos are down, you still get the same ranks you would have with 5-10 times more downloads back then.

Thanks for sharing the data.

[alhawke]

Congrats and thanks for sharing your results!

[Doglover]

I forgot to say, I had 2,500 downloads on day one and another 1,500 or so the following day.

[LilyBLily]

I just submitted another title to BookBub for a featured deal and as I was making a note of it and the date, I automatically filled in "Rejected."

I really should wait a few hours. 

[notthatamanda]

I just submitted again. Added some extra insurance to ensure my rejection by saying US only. I haven't heard back from KDP why my perma free books in the non US stores aren't permafree.

Lily - virtual flowers to whoever gets their rejection first?

[Simon Haynes]

I've set a reminder to apply towards the end of this month (fantasy category, worldwide). I've never submitting this one before.

[notthatamanda]

Good luck.

[Lorri Moulton]

It took them two and a half days....REJECTED.

I hadn't applied for a while but wide wasn't the difference.  Maybe it's being permafree?  I have no idea.

[notthatamanda]

 
I don't know how to get the picture in here but here is a bouquet to cheer you up.
https://www.bing.com/images/search?view=detailV2&ccid=ouOh23Jp&id=29CDAB2BF5BDE581D43CD97A1E3B653AB1BECCDF&thid=OIP.ouOh23JpLULG-whjs_6XNQHaHa&mediaurl=https%3a%2f%2fth.bing.com%2fth%2fid%2fRa2e3a1db72692d42c6fb0863b3fe9735%3frik%3d38y%252bsTplOx562Q%26riu%3dhttp%253a%252f%252fua-flowers.com%252fgoods_pics%252f6294_b.jpg%26ehk%3dRsUuNFUuk26FkJT3A7wSSyAyU%252f6aiVkUldDZ7BRX84A%253d%26risl%3d%26pid%3dImgRaw&exph=450&expw=450&q=big+bouquet+of+roses&simid=608003220559890974&ck=58FBACE6EA5FC1D6EE3C2E299AA185D7&selectedIndex=21&FORM=IRPRST&ajaxhist=0

[Lorri Moulton]

Thank you, Amanda!

[LilyBLily]

I got an international BookBub!

I totally did not expect this. Just this week, a review vanished from the book's Amazon page, and I was sure that would be the coup de grace and remove all hope.

It's for April 15, always a lucky day for me.

Now I'll have to scurry around and stack some additional promos.

Still can't believe it. 

[Doglover]

I got an international BookBub!

I totally did not expect this. Just this week, a review vanished from the book's Amazon page, and I was sure that would be the coup de grace and remove all hope.

It's for April 15, always a lucky day for me.

Now I'll have to scurry around and stack some additional promos.

Still can't believe it.

Can you answer a question, please, Lily?

Why do people always seem to stack a lot of other promotions to go with a Bookbub? If Bookbub is so great, why do you need any others? And if you've got all those others, how do you know that Bookbub is so great?

And congratulations

[Gerri Attrick]

Yay, congrats, Lily. Here's hoping it's a good one. Let us know how it goes. 

[alhawke]

I got an international BookBub!

Awesomeness! 
Good luck!

[notthatamanda]

I got an international BookBub!

I totally did not expect this. Just this week, a review vanished from the book's Amazon page, and I was sure that would be the coup de grace and remove all hope.

It's for April 15, always a lucky day for me.

Now I'll have to scurry around and stack some additional promos.

Still can't believe it.

[LilyBLily]

Promo stacks really got going a few years ago when Wayne Stinnett showed how his rankings and thus his sales improved if in essence he made a big splash. He even took notice of the time of day each discount newsletter went out, so he stacked his ads to capitalize on the timing.

However, since then, Amazon has done some unpleasant things to books whose sales spike dramatically. Amazon has squashed those spikes in various ways. So now the wisdom (for domestic BookBubs or for any launch plan) is to improve ranking more gradually, leading up to the BookBub spike and possibly trailing after it, too.

That said, I don't know how a domestic ad will help an international BookBub, so any advice others have to offer is welcome. 

[notthatamanda]

Not sure this counts as advice.

Intl bookbub #1 - I also reduced the price in the US. 99 cents. I got a lot of downloads. A week later I started raising the price gradually and turned on more ads/added more ads (AMS) when the price got high enough to justify them. The higher rank when I started the ads back up got me instant relevance and great placement with low CPC. Kept the ads running and the book selling well at full price for 9-10 months.

Enter Intl bookbub #2 - turned off ads and reduced price in the US. Did not get a lot of downloads. Was never able to get the AMS momentum going again.

The first Intl bookbub was extremely profitable because of the US sales, even though the bookbub was *not* in the US. The second one I didn't even make back the $200ish bucks it cost me.

So like I said, not advice, other than if US sales are going well, don't mess with it.

[Simon Haynes]

I do the same for intl bookbubs - reduce the price in the US, and then book promos leading up to the BB (most of these are US focused anyway.)

I think I read somewhere that Amazon won't let you price a book at 99c in one country and 4 times as much in another, but I might be mis-remembering.

[Doglover]

I do the same for intl bookbubs - reduce the price in the US, and then book promos leading up to the BB (most of these are US focused anyway.)

I think I read somewhere that Amazon won't let you price a book at 99c in one country and 4 times as much in another, but I might be mis-remembering.

That's only if you're doing a countdown deal. It has to stay the same price everywhere for a certain amount of time before and after. Other than that, you can price it all different prices wherever you like.

[alhawke]

Last time I ran an intl BB I stacked US promos at the same time too. I think it helped. The other time to stack is for bestseller status, so I've heard. Otherwise, you'll get plenty of sales just doing a Bookbub alone.

[notthatamanda]

Rejected. 2 days 3 hours.

[alhawke]

This week, me too

[notthatamanda]

This week, me too

Why isn't it Friday yet?

[Eric Thomson]

I'm waiting for rejection #60 since my last acceptance...

[Jeff Tanyard]

Congrats, Lily.   

[LilyBLily]

Thanks, all.

Now I have to figure out how I'm supposed to lower the price internationally without lowering the price in the U.S. Or do most of you lower the price across the board in every country and in the U.S.? Of course I understand doing it on Amazon, but what about B&N et al.? Is there a thread discussing how long it takes them to respond and which venues allow one to arrange the sale price in advance?

[Simon Haynes]

I lower it across the board, because otherwise I'd have to send out a '99 sale but not for you' email to my ML subscribers. Hate doing those (e.g. countdown deals for US and UK only.)

[Doglover]

This week, me too

Why isn't it Friday yet?

It is in England! 

[LilyBLily]

In anticipation of my international BookBub, I decided to update the frontmatter and backmatter of some other books. Not the one being featured.

Amazon accepted the files and okayed them. D2D said the epubs had errors and issued me dire warnings, so I spent some hours in the weeds with the html tags and got them all pretty for D2D. The issues were some closing tags only. To my eye, the pages still looked fine. Should I replace the files on Amazon with these even newer files?

What about any other stores? Are they so slow to update that it would be a mistake? This is very last minute and I'm not sure that updated frontmatter and backmatter are crucial for sell through of other titles.

(And yes, I should have thought about this weeks ago.)

[notthatamanda]

What did you have to change? Are your links working?

[VanessaC]

LilyBLily, congrats on the international Bookbub - do let us know how it goes for you.

In the spirit of this thread, I hope it's ok to share that I've also got an international Bookbub coming up on Sunday, 18 April. This was a bit of a shock, as all my books are in KU. The International Bookbub is for a box set of the complete (five book) first series which is normally 8.99 USD / GBP, but which I've reduced to 0.99 USD / GBP for April.

I've applied the reduction worldwide as it was an experiment - I've applied for a Bookbub on this box set before now, but always been rejected, so it was a nice surprise to get the international deal.

Side note: I've also run promos with Fussy Librarian, Bargainbooksy and ENT for the 0.99 box set this month and the results, well, dismal just about covers it - I don't think I've covered my costs even for Fussy Librarian. So I don't have high hopes for Bookbub, but I was delighted to get the slot anyway.

[LilyBLily]

No links involved in the tag issue. Got my fingers crossed.

[notthatamanda]

Personally I wouldn't mess with files at this point then. Good luck to both of you Lily and Vanessa. <fingers crossed emoji>

[LilyBLily]

My newsletter and the first paid ad have hit this morning with 22 sales so far. Nine clicks from my newsletter--and one unsubscribe and one spam complaint! It takes all kinds, right?

Good luck, VanessaC. Your box set should do well. Mine is stand-alone women's fiction and 99 cents for something that's usually $6.99. If that's not enough of a bargain, they can kiss my patootie.

Including the BookBub ad at $204, I've paid $60 for additional ads spaced out this week. Not a lot, but enough of a risk when I really don't know if the BookBub ad itself will do much. I might do a Facebook ad for the book this weekend, too, although FB ads make me queasy.

[LilyBLily]

Now up to 46 sales, and 30 clicks from my newsletter. A few more unsubscribes, too.

Edited to add: Ended the day with 52 sales and 32 clicks from my newsletter.

[alhawke]

Now up to 46 sales, and 30 clicks from my newsletter. A few more unsubscribes, too.

Keep the sales coming. Good luck Lily & Vanessa!

[Simon Haynes]

I have an international-only bookbub on the 16th April (A Riddle in Bronze, which is a gaslamp fantasy in the Paranormal Suspense BB category).

I've never run a promotion for this or reduced the price before so I'm interested to see how it goes.

I've also reduced the US price to 99c and booked nine promos of various kinds for that market. I think the first of those kicks off tonight.

[LilyBLily]

Good luck on yours!

I have another promo today, and then I pause for BookBub tomorrow and have one more the day after. I had planned to do more, but then decided to wait and see. I can always tack on a Facebook ad without significant prior arrangements. I've already created the visual for one following David Gaughran's advice, so it wouldn't be hugely time-consuming to put it in place. I hope. FB is so labyrinthine.

Anyway, watching the numbers is entertainment. I just have to remind myself that I am paying for this entertainment.

[notthatamanda]

Good luck to both of you!

[LilyBLily]

At 8 AM EDT: I'm surprised that my BookBub ad has not hit in the UK yet. Either that or there are zero sales in the UK. Those of you who know BookBub's timing are free to snicker at my excitement.

Day 1    54 sales. Assuming all 32 clicks from my newsletter resulted in sales leaves a respectable 22 sales from FKBT.
Day 2    10 sales from Book Doggy. I don't call that a success.
Day 3    ? sales BookBub

Updates to come!

[notthatamanda]

Fingers crossed for you.

[VanessaC]

At 8 AM EDT: I'm surprised that my BookBub ad has not hit in the UK yet. Either that or there are zero sales in the UK. Those of you who know BookBub's timing are free to snicker at my excitement.

Day 1    54 sales. Assuming all 32 clicks from my newsletter resulted in sales leaves a respectable 22 sales from FKBT.
Day 2    10 sales from Book Doggy. I don't call that a success.
Day 3    ? sales BookBub

Updates to come!

I'm in the UK and signed up to Bookbub as a reader. My Bookbub emails usually come in between 2pm and 3pm UK-time, and your post was showing at 1pm UK-time, so I'd say that the Bookbub email hadn't been sent out in the UK at that point.

Am sure those sales will start rolling in soon - good luck!

Edited to add: as I post this it's about 3.20pm in the UK, and my Bookbub email came through just before 3pm.

[VanessaC]

I have an international-only bookbub on the 16th April (A Riddle in Bronze, which is a gaslamp fantasy in the Paranormal Suspense BB category).

I've never run a promotion for this or reduced the price before so I'm interested to see how it goes.

I've also reduced the US price to 99c and booked nine promos of various kinds for that market. I think the first of those kicks off tonight.

Good luck for your interenational bookbub!

[LilyBLily]

Day 1    54 sales. Assuming all 32 clicks from my newsletter resulted in sales leaves a respectable 22 sales from FKBT.
Day 2    10 sales from Book Doggy. I don't call that a success.
Day 3    12 sales from B&N
            52 sales from Kobo
            204 sales from Amazon--which seems a apt number since $204 was the price of the ad.

[notthatamanda]

Congratulations.

[LilyBLily]

Day 1    54 sales. Assuming all 32 clicks from my newsletter resulted in sales leaves a respectable 22 sales from FKBT.
Day 2    10 sales from Book Doggy. I don't call that a success.
Day 3    12 sales from B&N--remarkable, considering B&N doesn't do international anymore.
            58 sales from Kobo
              0 sales from Google Play and Draft2Digital (for Apple)
          238 sales from Amazon
Total so far: 372 sales, or nearly half of what is needed to break even.

BookBub kindly sent me at my request a screen shot of the ad--with the copy they wrote to promote it. That sales copy is probably worth all that I have spent so far. You can bet I'm going to copy it word for word when I apply for a U.S. BookBub for this title.

[notthatamanda]

If you are talking about the bookbub blurb, you can see it on your bookbub page, or at least you used to be able to. I only ever had an Intl bookbub and I took note of it. I was similarly impressed with the one they did for me.

[LilyBLily]

Day 1   April 13   54 sales Amazon, 12 sales B&N. Assuming all 32 clicks from my newsletter resulted in sales leaves a more than respectable 34 sales from FKBT ad. (Repositioned the B&N sales as they all occurred on Apr 13.)
Day 2   April 14   10 sales Amazon from Book Doggy ad. I don't call that a success.
Day 3   April 15   All sales from international BookBub ad
                         71 sales Kobo
                         257 sales Amazon
                           0 sales reported by Google Play and Draft2Digital (for Apple)--some could be delayed
Total as of 9 PM EDT: 404 sales, or more than half of what is needed to break even.

I'd be happy to reach 425 by end of day, but that may not happen. I myself don't usually open my daily BB newsletter the day it arrives, so I do assume a tail. So far, no sell through to other titles, but this sale is for a stand-alone title, not a series starter.

[LilyBLily]

Day 1   April 13   54 sales Amazon      Ad on FKBT, and my newsletter
                         12 sales B&N
Day 2   April 14   10 sales Amazon      Ad on Book Doggy
Day 3   April 15                                 Ad on International BookBub
                         71 sales Kobo
                         263 sales Amazon
                           0 sales reported by Google Play and Draft2Digital (for Apple)--some could be delayed
Day 4   April 16  At 12 AM EDT, both Amazon and Kobo have rolled over to the next day despite Amazon usually using Pacific time.
                        84 sales Amazon
                         6 sales Kobo

Total so far: 500 sales   

To come later on April 16, ad on eReaderIQ

[notthatamanda]

 

[LilyBLily]

Day 1   April 13   54 sales Amazon     Ad on FKBT, plus my newsletter
                         12 sales B&N
Day 2   April 14  10 sales Amazon      Ad on Book Doggy
Day 3   April 15                                Ad on International BookBub
                         71 sales Kobo
                       263 sales Amazon
                           0 sales reported by Google Play and Draft2Digital (for Apple)--some could be delayed
Day 4   April 16 At 8 AM EDT
                       108 sales Amazon
                         10 sales Kobo

Total so far: 528 sales   

To come later today, ad on eReaderIQ

By my calculations the breakeven is 776 sales, depending on currency fluctuations.

[LilyBLily]

More revisions as lag reporting plays a role:

Day 1   April 13   54 sales Amazon     Ad on FKBT, plus my newsletter
                         12 sales B&N
Day 2   April 14  10 sales Amazon      Ad on Book Doggy--maybe not a loser after all?
                        15 sales B&N
Day 3   April 15                                Ad on International BookBub
                         71 sales Kobo
                       263 sales Amazon
                         67 sales reported by Draft2Digital for Apple
                          ? sales to come B&N reported Saturday or Monday?
Day 4   April 16 At 10 AM EDT
                       111 sales Amazon
                         12 sales Kobo

Total so far: 615 sales   

To come later today, ad on eReaderIQ--I'm not subscribed, so I'm not sure if it has dropped yet.

By my calculations the breakeven is 776 sales, depending on currency fluctuations.

[LilyBLily]

Didn't want to bore anyone with the slower stats yesterday, much as they interested me. Google Play did finally report a handful of sales, and B&N did report this morning even though it's a weekend, as did D2D for Apple sales. The promotion is officially in positive dollars as of 8 AM EDT. I had miscalculated the royalty amounts granted in the non-Amazon stores, but even so, the totals already exceed my initial breakeven number of 776.

Bookbub's average sales for this category: 760

My book's sales so far:

502 Amazon
125 Apple
95 Kobo
56 B&N
13 Google Play

Total: 791

So, technically, this promo is a success.


Woo-hoo!

[Maggie Ann]

 

[notthatamanda]

Yay! Maybe you picked up some new fans too.

[Simon Haynes]

My BB in Supernatural Suspense has been running about a day and a bit, and I'm sitting on 380 or so international sales for that book. BB's expected for the category is 410 and I'll easily pass that over the next few days. It was a smaller category than fantasy or scifi, which I usually go for, but I applied for it because I felt it fitted the niche better.

[notthatamanda]

Congratulations!

[LilyBLily]

My BB in Supernatural Suspense has been running about a day and a bit, and I'm sitting on 380 or so international sales for that book. BB's expected for the category is 410 and I'll easily pass that over the next few days. It was a smaller category than fantasy or scifi, which I usually go for, but I applied for it because I felt it fitted the niche better.

That's good news. 

[Maggie Ann]

My BB in Supernatural Suspense has been running about a day and a bit, and I'm sitting on 380 or so international sales for that book. BB's expected for the category is 410 and I'll easily pass that over the next few days. It was a smaller category than fantasy or scifi, which I usually go for, but I applied for it because I felt it fitted the niche better.

 

[Jeff Tanyard]

Congrats, Lily and Simon!   

[Simon Haynes]

540 now.  Another 210 in the US from the other stacked promos (with a couple more to come).  The stacked promos cost me $175 US and the BB was $120 from memory.

I only have 1st day figures for Apple and Google, as they always lag a bit. Kobo performed well as usual, with most of the sales in Canada.

[notthatamanda]

Great! Happy for you.

[LilyBLily]

That's excellent. You're really chugging past the expected number.
 
 

[JackT]

Congrats, both of you! Should be a shoo-in for a US deal in 2-3 months.

[LilyBLily]

Congrats, both of you! Should be a shoo-in for a US deal in 2-3 months.

I know that's the received wisdom, but we've already advertised our books on U.S. newsletters, and surely BookBub can only count clicks from its ads and check our rankings on certain days?

So if, say, the direct clicks from the BookBub ad for my book only equaled or neared their average--even though the clicks from other newsletters produced many more sales and created a profit--why would BookBub think our books were good candidates for what would be in essence a repeat sale in the U.S.?

Seriously wondering. What has been other people's recent experience?   

[JackT]

I had an international Bookbub in February for a later-in-series book. It did reasonably well - getting the average number of sales Bookbub suggested - and I've just secured a US deal for next month (yay!).

I had another international earlier this month, on a standalone book, which did slightly less well. It will be interesting to see if that one gets a deal in July/August.

Both books were available in the US, at 0.99, but I didn't do anything to promote them there.

[notthatamanda]

Congrats, both of you! Should be a shoo-in for a US deal in 2-3 months.

I know that's the received wisdom, but we've already advertised our books on U.S. newsletters, and surely BookBub can only count clicks from its ads and check our rankings on certain days?

So if, say, the direct clicks from the BookBub ad for my book only equaled or neared their average--even though the clicks from other newsletters produced many more sales and created a profit--why would BookBub think our books were good candidates for what would be in essence a repeat sale in the U.S.?

Seriously wondering. What has been other people's recent experience?

Not recent, but I had a very good Int'l bookbub Dec 2018 and they never accepted me for a US one.

[VanessaC]

Congratulations to LilyBLily and Simon Haynes for what sound like successful international bookbubs.

       


My own international bookbub ran yesterday - 18 April. This was a 5 book complete series box-set, normally 8.99 and reduced to 0.99 for April.

18 April - 453 sales
19 April (so far) - 177 sales

So a total of 630 sales to date, which I'm delighted with (per Bookbub's own stats, I think the average for fantasy is 460 or thereabouts). Depending on exchange rates, I should also be in profit, which is an unexpected bonus.

The box set also broke into the top 100 paid on Amazon UK, which is another nice bonus, and is sitting high in some of its sub-categories (side note: I might need to look at the categories again, as the UK ones don't look quite right).

A lovely start to the week. Hope everyone else is having a good day.

[notthatamanda]

Great results Vanessa! Congratulations. I think I'll go apply again.

[Doglover]

I've never applied for a Bookbub. I have, of course, heard much about it but I've always shied away. Perhaps later on I'll give it some thought, although what to advertise I cannot imagine.

[LilyBLily]

I've never applied for a Bookbub. I have, of course, heard much about it but I've always shied away. Perhaps later on I'll give it some thought, although what to advertise I cannot imagine.

It brought some excitement into my humdrum lockdown life.

You have many titles to choose from. Many of the books featured on BB are not first in series, which runs contrary to the received wisdom about only advertising the first book. My book had only nine reviews, again contrary to the intimidating "thousands of 5-star reviews on Goodreads" that BB often touts. You might as well just pick one and go for it. As I recall you're in the UK, so an international-only BB might be very good for continued sales.

[notthatamanda]

I've never applied for a Bookbub. I have, of course, heard much about it but I've always shied away. Perhaps later on I'll give it some thought, although what to advertise I cannot imagine.

Your best bet is the first book in your series that has the best read through. Not to imply that is your best bet to get accepted, but that's probably your best bet to make money.

[TimothyEllis]

As I recall you're in the UK, so an international-only BB might be very good for continued sales.

That only follows if someone's home market is their primary market, or at least is significant.

When the US is 70-80% of your income, international BB's make no sense.

[LilyBLily]

As I recall you're in the UK, so an international-only BB might be very good for continued sales.

That only follows if someone's home market is their primary market, or at least is significant.

When the US is 70-80% of your income, international BB's make no sense.

As long as an ad pays for itself, surely it does make sense--unless you think that the typical support method of stacking US newsletter ads destroys prospects for a successful US BookBub ad. I won't know about that unless I actually get a US BB ad, and that is hardly a given.

[TimothyEllis]

As long as an ad pays for itself, surely it does make sense

I guess I look at ads differently.

To my way of thinking, if an ad fails to produce a decent profit, then that ad was a failure.

I've had just 1 Intl BB on a book 7. Everyone told me it did well, but I've always viewed it as a total failure, and I'll never do another one.

Ads breaking even is not a rationale for doing them imo.

Sorry, that's just the way I think.

[LilyBLily]

For several years, I was very satisfied with the return on my continuous Amazon ads. Then they tanked. Click price has doubled or tripled, which means zero direct profit on the ads. As I've discussed elsewhere, an algorithm change has resulted in search terms Amazon sends to my ad suddenly being terms I've specifically listed as negative that shouldn't be sent at all. Lots of expensive and useless clicks resulting in no sales.

Please do not claim that my Amazon ads still would be successful if only I came up with amazing keywords that no one else has discovered yet romance fans are ravenously responsive to. Romance is an intensely crowded field and I defy anyone to prove that there are any such keywords.

So this year my strategy has changed, and my tactic is to use one-day newsletter ads and see where that gets me. Go look for a new audience. This seems reasonable to me as a beginning step. So far it has been moderately successful in generating reads for my books in KU. This international BookBub may work a similar magic with my wide women's fiction. Or it may not, but at least it hasn't cratered my ad budget.

[notthatamanda]

Yeah, I agree. I spent a month of evenings with a trial of a keyword software package trying to find the magic combination of searched a lot but not expensive. Couldn't do it and returned the software.

[LilyBLily]

I haven't used Amazon ads since 2016/17. Too expensive, over complicated, and I'm wide, so I prefer ads that promote multiple platforms.

I don't use newsletters. My various mail lists don't do a lot for me. I think it might be my reader demographic. They don't respond much to newsletters, if at all really.

I need advertising tactics that aren't too expensive, run 24/7, preferably promote all platforms, don't take up much of my time to manage, simple to set up and use, are in my control to run as often and whenever I want, and keep my sales churning with a profit margin.

As for keywords, in my personal opinion people can end up wasting a huge amount of time and money fiddling with keywords for marginal gain.

Late 2016 is when huge numbers of us jumped into the Amazon ads pool and drove the click prices up. I felt it was necessary since at the beginning of 2016 I could release a book and it would immediately sell with no ads. By late 2016, none of my books were were selling, and my new books didn't cause a ripple. So I dove into AMS ads and got an immediate boost in sales that continued for several years. Now, meh. Hence a new strategy.

Keywords that seem completely logical for what a book is can signal to Amazon that it's a different kind of book entirely. I released a Gothic romance that is not a "dark" "Mafia" "biker" "street" romance. That's where Amazon wants to advertise it. Much easier to accurately hype the book in a newsletter ad.

I agree that some newsletters are unresponsive depending on the genre and unfortunately my own personal newsletter is more a tax write-off than a powerful engine to get sales.

[notthatamanda]

I hope Lily doesn't mind me posting this here but add another Bookbub rejection to my total.

[LilyBLily]

This can be our misery thread. No problem about posting another BB rejection.
 

[Lorri Moulton]

Sorry Amanda. :(

[VanessaC]

I hope Lily doesn't mind me posting this here but add another Bookbub rejection to my total.

Sorry to hear that. Even if you're half-expecting it, it's still disappointing.

[notthatamanda]

Thanks guys, no worries. I'm all about the next big thing and that would be Radish. ;)

[LilyBLily]

A week after the international BookBub, sales are still dripping in, including more today from B&N (reporting sales of two days ago) than the day before. So it's not a perfect slide to nothing, and meanwhile a couple of full price sales have happened. All the venues have now reverted to the regular price, although I did have to change Google Play manually despite the sale price end date having expired. I'll revert Amazon's price late tonight. 

BookBub has asked for feedback. With over 1k sales and a few more to go, this ad was not life-changing (does that happen anymore?) but the numbers are comfortably above BB's average. That gives me hope that maybe a domestic featured ad might be possible in a few months. BB meanwhile is pushing me to buy PPC ads. I think I'd like to see the profits for this ad run first.

[Eric Thomson]

I'm just setting up for the international BookBub and I noticed if I set the book to 99c on the international sites, Amazon change the royalty to 30% even for the full price book on the US site.

Is this new?

Nope. Always been like that. You either meet the minimum threshold for 70% in all Zon stores, or you get 35% everywhere.

[Eric Thomson]

I'm just setting up for the international BookBub and I noticed if I set the book to 99c on the international sites, Amazon change the royalty to 30% even for the full price book on the US site.

Is this new?

Nope. Always been like that. You either meet the minimum threshold for 70% in all Zon stores, or you get 35% everywhere.

Thanks. I don't usually only discount international only and, the few times I have, I never noticed that.

Sucks. 

Of course, you can play the price match game by dropping it to 99c a few days ahead of time on other retailers... When the Zon price-matches, it doesn't change the payout percentage... Risky? Sure. Just sayin' 

[LilyBLily]

So if I try to raise the price on Amazon tonight, it won't do anything for three days? 

I guess I don't mind all that much because sales are still coming in on Amazon, presumably from people finally opening their sales newsletters.
 

[PaulineMRoss]

To add another data point to this thread: I just got accepted for an all-areas free Bookbub for a book which is in KU. So it can be done, although I think a lot of it is about genre. In Regency romance, there are typically two offerings a day, one free and one 99c or more. That means twice as many slots as in some genres, and they're more likely to have a lull where they're happy to take a KU book to fill in a gap.

Interestingly, although it took me 60 submissions to get my first Bookbub, it got easier after that. At one point I had five straight submissions accepted without a rejection. It's got harder the last year or two, though. This time I had two rejections before they accepted one. They turned down my two never-before-discounted offers, one of them a good value box set, in favour of a book they ran just over a year ago. So I have no more idea than anyone else why they accept one book over another. I think a lot of it is just happenstance - catching them on a day when yours is the most appealing option. It has *nothing* to do with the quality of the book. Good books get rejected multiple times, less good get accepted, all without rhyme or reason.

[notthatamanda]

So if I try to raise the price on Amazon tonight, it won't do anything for three days? 

I guess I don't mind all that much because sales are still coming in on Amazon, presumably from people finally opening their sales newsletters.

I raised a price on a book yesterday. Every platform is up other than Amazon.

Amazon is pretending to price match by saying it's discounting the full price digital to 99c.

They are not price matching. They are lying. The book is at 5.99 everywhere.

Now I have to wait 3 days to tell them to fix it, which they will have to do because they're lying...again.

This happens every single time.

And people wonder why I won't touch Vella when Amazon prove every day that they either can't be trusted or they're not competent. Take your pick.

Do you distribute through D2D? It can take a while for those to go through. What I've done is instead of just asking Amazon to change the price I ask them where the price is still 99 cents because I can't find it. Once they told me it was B&N. I had them on the phone. I looked at it and said I don't understand, I'm looking at it, and it is okay. I've had to do this a couple of times. So when you go back to them make sure you say you have checked everywhere and it looks like the price is $X.99 and you need to know specifically where it is still 0.99 so you can change it. Hope that helps. Good luck.

[Simon Haynes]

The only way to get a bigger audience in another country, barring blind luck or amazon algos, is to advertise there.  And the cheapest way to advertise is Bookbub.

(Eta: I typed out a very similar reply 2-3 weeks ago, then deleted it as I so often do. I have to remind myself it's not my place to convince or advise others, but then again I feel like I need to post an alternate point of view.)


I just got the post-bookbub email from BB asking how it went and giving me a few pointers on extending the warm glow of sales.  Point two or three was 'apply for another bookbub' so I did.

[Simon Haynes]

Of course, you can play the price match game by dropping it to 99c a few days ahead of time on other retailers... When the Zon price-matches, it doesn't change the payout percentage... Risky? Sure. Just sayin' 

When you pick the 70% royalty rate there used to be a T&C stating that you confirmed you were not listing the book anywhere else cheaper. I have no idea whether it's still there, but it's not something I'd risk my account over. The 30% rate didn't have the same requirement.

[notthatamanda]

I agree it's a game, an annoying one, but I know up front I'll have to call them and act like I'm too dumb to figure out where the price is still 0.99 so can they please help me out and tell me. Thank you so much, what would I ever do without you.

Are you in the US? You can get them to call you on author central and take care of it over the phone rather than waiting the three days to try email again.

[notthatamanda]

That's how you know worrying works. Most of the stuff I worry about never happens.

[PaulineMRoss]

I noticed something interesting on the Bookbub website today. The average downloads for my genre used to be 24,600. Now it's 18,200. That's a 25% drop. Big difference. They still charge the same fee, though.

[notthatamanda]

That's how you know worrying works. Most of the stuff I worry about never happens.

Lol. How come worrying didn't work the other 10 times in the past year? It all started going horribly wrong in March last year. This is the first time the price went up without me having to hassle Amazon since then.

However, if whining on Tim's forum works, then I'm going to keep doing that. 

I guess I'm better at it than you. A lifetime of practice.

[LilyBLily]

The price went right back up this morning even though I only asked at midnight last night. No issue there. 

I did apply for another BookBub as suggested, for a different title. I can't seriously believe they'll say yes, but since I have proof that even an international ad can make a profit, I'm trying again.

I agree that BB doesn't care if a book is well written. If it seems plausible--good cover, on target for subgenre, etc.--they'll run it even though many of the reviews will say, "This is the worst book this author has written." That includes trad pub books.

I was hoping my recent run would provide more Amazon reviews. Instead, one review that Amazon had deleted has been restored. 

[LilyBLily]

Still waiting for BookBub to reject my latest attempt. I guess they get a lot over the weekend and it takes a day or so to sort through them.

Meanwhile, I discovered that Google Play not only did not automatically return my book's price to normal, but it delisted the book. This does not help with a tail, folks.

I've manually fixed it, I hope. Part of the site says it's available and part hasn't caught up and isn't counting it in my total list of titles. Fun and games.

[LilyBLily]

This is probably a bit late, but have you tried the online support Google chat. They usually fix anything I need on the spot. No need to wait.

Also, have you noticed problems with Apple. I can't get into the back end of my books to set up pricing for my latest release, so every other platform is live except for Apple. Real pain in the butt because I have campaigns running for it.

I did not see a live chat feature on Google Play. I've looked again just now and don't see it. Where is it located? My book's listing there is correct now.

I had such a wretched time struggling with pricing on Apple that years ago I switched to going through D2D to Apple. Happy to avoid the hassle. I do have one book left that's direct, but since I never change its price, I don't have an answer for you.

[Simon Haynes]

Still waiting for BookBub to reject my latest attempt. I guess they get a lot over the weekend and it takes a day or so to sort through them.

Meanwhile, I discovered that Google Play not only did not automatically return my book's price to normal, but it delisted the book. This does not help with a tail, folks.

I've manually fixed it, I hope. Part of the site says it's available and part hasn't caught up and isn't counting it in my total list of titles. Fun and games.

It's been five days for me and no rejection yet (scifi space opera, wide).

I'm guessing they're waiting to see if something better comes along.  Most scifi space opera is in KU, so I guess that's something in my favour.

[PaulineMRoss]

It's been five days for me and no rejection yet (scifi space opera, wide).

I'm guessing they're waiting to see if something better comes along.  Most scifi space opera is in KU, so I guess that's something in my favour.

Five days is a very good sign. It means they're considering it. It might still get rejected but it's not a hard pass, anyway. Fingers crossed for you!

[LilyBLily]

While I wait to be rejected/accepted for the next BookBub ad, I noticed something about the book that just ran the international BB ad. It now has four more ratings (not reviews). I don't know if this is good or bad. Probably good. After the first few reviews, unless there's something in a story that sticks out like a sore thumb, everybody says the same thing, anyway. And if something does stick out, they say the same thing with different pejoratives. I must admit I find those reviews entertaining.

[LilyBLily]

Holy moley! I got another international BookBub! Yikes!

[notthatamanda]

Congratulations!

[Simon Haynes]

Me too! International only (non-US)

I've seen an awful lot of big-name authors/books in my Bookbub emails lately, and as I suggested earlier in this thread, that has to be leaving more room for international-only deals. Publishers based in Au/Ca/UK/In can't use Bookbub featured deals unless they hold the rights in all those countries, which almost never happens. So, US publishers are cherry picking the US slots, and that leaves room for indies.

Works for me.

[LilyBLily]

So here's my question. Someone suggested that I should have immediately pressed for a U.S. ad with the same book that had the international deal this month, and for sure BB would have given me that deal. Do we really think that's what's happening now?

Instead, I submitted a different book. I tend to agree with Simon that the trad pub ads are pushing the indie ads to international, but my concern is that if or when BB finally agrees to a U.S. deal, the supporting ads I bought and will buy for the international deals will have drawn off some of the U.S. sales potential. Is BB's mailing list still so wonderful that even if stacked newsletter ads produce nothing much the U.S. BB ad alone will be profitable?

[Simon Haynes]

I've never tried to 'hold back' the US edition at full price while dropping the intl ones to 99c, in order to apply for a US bookbub 30 days after the intl one. I think the chances of getting a US-only BB are slim indeed.

I prefer to drop the price across the board and book promos elsewhere for the US market. I don't cycle back to apply for a BB with that particular book for 6-12 months at least.

(My last BB, and this one, are for titles I've never run a promo for even though they were released in 2018/2019.)

[JackT]

I've always made a substantial profit on US only deals; and I haven't ever tried stacking them. I am going to give it a go next month, though.

Is it better to have the smaller promotions before or after the big day? Or a couple before and a couple after? I've got a six day window, with the Bookbub on Day 3.

[LilyBLily]

I've always made a substantial profit on US only deals; and I haven't ever tried stacking them. I am going to give it a go next month, though.

Is it better to have the smaller promotions before or after the big day? Or a couple before and a couple after? I've got a six day window, with the Bookbub on Day 3.

Since the purpose these days of stacking is to keep Amazon from freaking out on the day of the BookBub spike and taking your book off sale, you certainly want some promos before. I don't know if after is worth paying for. Might be the moment to send out your own newsletter, tweet, do Instagram or Facebook posts, that sort of social media. 

[notthatamanda]

Bknights on Fiverr is like $12 if you want a pre bookbub boost for not a lot of money.

[VanessaC]

So here's my question. Someone suggested that I should have immediately pressed for a U.S. ad with the same book that had the international deal this month, and for sure BB would have given me that deal. Do we really think that's what's happening now?

Instead, I submitted a different book. I tend to agree with Simon that the trad pub ads are pushing the indie ads to international, but my concern is that if or when BB finally agrees to a U.S. deal, the supporting ads I bought and will buy for the international deals will have drawn off some of the U.S. sales potential. Is BB's mailing list still so wonderful that even if stacked newsletter ads produce nothing much the U.S. BB ad alone will be profitable?

For info, in case it's helpful. I applied for a US-only BB deal for the book that had run on the international-only BB deal this month, and was rejected within a day or so. From memory, I think a lot of people who've had international-only deals have then had success with applying for a US-only deal, but it's certainly not guaranteed (of course - nothing is!).

I've been really happy with the international BB deal, though - I continue to see a nice trickle of sales on the discounted box set and, even better, significantly higher page reads than normal for that box set, plus overall increased sales and page reads on my other books and a few more pre-orders on my next release. So it's going to be - for me - a profitable month.

[notthatamanda]

You guys have inspired me to apply again with the book they accepted for Int'l before. I've sold 8 copies of it YTD. I've got nothing to lose. It has nice reviews from UK readers, it really seemed to resonate with people there.

[LilyBLily]

You guys have inspired me to apply again with the book they accepted for Int'l before. I've sold 8 copies of it YTD. I've got nothing to lose. It has nice reviews from UK readers, it really seemed to resonate with people there.

Good idea. I had to put submitting on my to-do list and force myself to keep trying. By becoming indies we avoid direct rejections from agents and editors, but we still are rejection avoidant.   

[RPatton]

To add, Book Doggy is only $18 and I saw really nice results with it, which could give you a nice bump pre-Bookbub.

[notthatamanda]

Rejected. 48 hour turn around.

[LilyBLily]

Rejected. 48 hour turn around.

Darn. Maybe next time. 

[Simon Haynes]

Rejected. 48 hour turn around.

Argh.

[alhawke]

Rejected. 48 hour turn around.

Me too. I think I've had two rejections since the thread started. 
  Never surrender, Amanda.

[Eric Thomson]

Rejected. 48 hour turn around.

Me too. I think I've had two rejections since the thread started. 
  Never surrender, Amanda.

Two? Piker 
I'm waiting for rejection number twelve since this thread started. Had a few heart palpitations last week when it took them five days to reject.

[alhawke]

Ha, ha! Maybe I need to up the ante. I'll keep applying 

[R. C.]

Received my second BB rejection today. Does that mean I can apply to join the club? Is there a minimum number of rejections to apply for club membership?

 

Cheers,
R.C.

[notthatamanda]

I think I've got over a hundred. You may join but you are still a prawn, no offense. We all have to start somewhere.

[PaulineMRoss]

I racked up 60 rejections before I got an acceptance, so keep applying, folks!

[JackT]

I've lost count. It must be 30 or 40 at least.

[Eric Thomson]

My last acceptance was in February 2020. Since then, I've racked up 70 rejections.

[TimothyEllis]

I racked up 60 rejections before I got an acceptance, so keep applying, folks!

I've lost count. It must be 30 or 40 at least.

My last acceptance was in February 2020. Since then, I've racked up 70 rejections.

    

I just don't have that kind of devotion to getting one.

I completely gave up after about a dozen.

With all the talk of Indies only getting Intl ones, I don't see the point of even bothering.

But good luck to those of you who never give up. 

[Eric Thomson]

   

I just don't have that kind of devotion to getting one.

I completely gave up after about a dozen.

With all the talk of Indies only getting Intl ones, I don't see the point of even bothering.

But good luck to those of you who never give up. 

It literally takes me five minutes per month. I have five series and submit the first in each every four weeks, like clockwork. I'm hoping they'll give me a featured deal eventually if only so I'll stop submitting 

[notthatamanda]

I used to be a little bit more regular about it. Now it's just when people are talking about it a lot here and I can pretend I'm doing work.

[Simon Haynes]

Over the past few months I've had four rejections in a row, four acceptances in a row.

It's not so much about your book, rather it's related to what they've already lined up.  If they have a load of epic fantasy books and someone offers something a little different it has a much higher chance.

My acceptances were scifi comedy, light scifi adventure, gaslamp fantasy and mil scifi (only one of them in KU)

[notthatamanda]

Eh, no worries. Am I ever going to get a romance bookbub? Probably not. If they accept me I'll probably take it as a sign that Bookbub is in its last days. My romance is competing against books with 100s of reviews with a 4.9+* average. I'm low 4s with 70 or so reviews. It will never happen.

[notthatamanda]

Yeah, I was contemplating rebranding them as women's fiction. Can't justify the cost of the new covers though.

[LilyBLily]

I haven't submitted often--and BookBub helpfully keeps a list of my submissions, so now I know it was a total of eleven--and they've passed on this next book twice before. I think Simon has the right of it and their people pick and choose based on what other books they're got lined up.

My assumption is that the trad pub women's fiction, with its typical $1.99 or $2.99 as the discount price, is the preferred deal for BookBub. Since there is plenty of trad pub backlist to pump through the system, I doubt I could ever get a U.S. deal. I'd do a 99-cent deal and accepting my book in place of a trad pub book means $751 or $1522 in lost revenue for BB. I can't see why BB would go for that.

On the other hand, if BB wants to keep giving me international deals, and the ads each make a small profit, then I can use that profit to fund other ads that might be even more profitable. At the moment I'm soured on Amazon ads and not ready to try yet again with Facebook.

[LilyBLily]

The run-up to my international BookBub on Monday has begun. I'll spare you the details this time around. So far, the first paid newsletter ad (non-international, AFAIK) has produced enough sales to amortize the cost of the ad and make a tiny profit. Score!

[notthatamanda]

Nice! Congratulations.

[alhawke]

Congrats, Lily!

[LilyBLily]

Here's a question for those of you with experience. Does the very first newsletter ad in a stacked sequence produce the most sales? This time around I've carefully separated out the newsletter ads to one per day and no social media alerts, the purpose being to see exactly which ones produced sales. But the truth is that without a tracking pixel I have no way of knowing if a sale today is from the newsletter that hit yesterday or from today's ad. Similarly, after the BookBub tomorrow, there will be people who only look at the email on Tuesday or Wednesday, and I have other ads scheduled for those two days. So I won't really know exactly how many sales can be attributed to the BookBub newsletter alone.

This time around I've remembered to checking my book's rankings, which is entertainment. Haven't seen those numbers in a while.

[alhawke]

Does the very first newsletter ad in a stacked sequence produce the most sales?

.
No. Sometimes I prime a big sale and can see the start of sales, but, in my opinion, the sales depend on the popularity of the newsletter, not the order in which it is released by day or time.

There's not much of a way to track it, but there's much less sales on a tail the following day (except from Bookbub). Usually I find the newsletter of the day is leading to the vast majority of your daily sales.

Only a few promotion companies fair better after the first day with a tail. Books Butterfly & The Portalist, for example, do well, if not better, on the second day--I think because they rely on multiple mailouts rather than one single email.

[JRTomlin]

On the ever helpful partners blog, BookBub gives nine reasons a book was rejected:

https://insights.bookbub.com/reasons-book-rejected-bookbub-featured-deal

My problem is #7--not enough platform, specifically reviews. So we have that famous chicken-egg conundrum: Not enough sales to interest BookBub in increasing my books' sales, not enough reviews to interest BookBub in increasing my books' review count.

I guess I can use that thousand dollars I won't be spending on a BookBub ad for a lot of Facebook ads or something. Or maybe I'm supposed to hunt up and pay for a couple hundred reviews. That's a great use of ad money, just give the book away to a thousand people and hope I get a hundred new reviews. Or two hundred. Actually, it's hard to find a service that can give away that many books on the direct hope/assumption the recipient will review it. Straight book giveaways have not worked for me at all; I can give away a couple thousand books and get zero reviews.

Last week I had 23 requests for a free copy of one of my titles through a company that says it has a 75% review rate. So far, no new reviews. In my personal experience, if I don't read a book as soon as I download it, I probably won't read it ever, so I am not hopeful that 75% will apply to my book.

I'm committed to asking BookBub once a month every month this year, anyway. They might have an off moment and want my thousand dollars after all.

If it is any comfort, reviews don't always help. They just turned down one of my novels that has more than a thousand reviews. 🤷‍♀️

I would totally skip Bookbub if I could find a platform that gave even close to the same results. AMS definitely doesn't for me. I have been stacking smaller advertisers with some results, but nothing exactly spectacular. It can be frustrating.

[LilyBLily]

That is so frustrating. You have plenty of proof that your book is pleasing to many readers.

I think Simon is right that BB is simply matching its category needs with its remaining openings after taking the bigger money offered by trad pubs to run ads for their backlist titles.

I was wrong about number of reviews being meaningful to BookBub. BB offered me the first international ad on a title that had a mere nine reviews. The international ad and all my supporting U.S. newsletter ads garnered the book fourteen additional ratings. At this point I think if the ratings increase, having more reviews will not matter. Potential readers will see the total number, maybe read a few of the reviews, and make up their minds.

It's tough to know we must advertise and yet have so few ways to do it effectively. This second international BB I've got running May 17 will likely earn me a net of a couple hundred dollars--and that is nothing compared to the thousands that my old Amazon ads used to earn on one title alone. 

[PaulineMRoss]

Here's a question for those of you with experience. Does the very first newsletter ad in a stacked sequence produce the most sales? This time around I've carefully separated out the newsletter ads to one per day and no social media alerts, the purpose being to see exactly which ones produced sales. But the truth is that without a tracking pixel I have no way of knowing if a sale today is from the newsletter that hit yesterday or from today's ad. Similarly, after the BookBub tomorrow, there will be people who only look at the email on Tuesday or Wednesday, and I have other ads scheduled for those two days. So I won't really know exactly how many sales can be attributed to the BookBub newsletter alone.

This time around I've remembered to checking my book's rankings, which is entertainment. Haven't seen those numbers in a while.

I've found in the past when I've had a Bookbub without any other promo that the first day is the big hit, the second day produces about a quarter of that, the third day a quarter of day 2 and so on. Other promo sites seem to be similar. So you could use that as a very rough rule of thumb. But Bookbub dwarfs anything else.

[notthatamanda]

That is so frustrating. You have plenty of proof that your book is pleasing to many readers.

I think Simon is right that BB is simply matching its category needs with its remaining openings after taking the bigger money offered by trad pubs to run ads for their backlist titles.

I was wrong about number of reviews being meaningful to BookBub. BB offered me the first international ad on a title that had a mere nine reviews. The international ad and all my supporting U.S. newsletter ads garnered the book fourteen additional ratings. At this point I think if the ratings increase, having more reviews will not matter. Potential readers will see the total number, maybe read a few of the reviews, and make up their minds.

It's tough to know we must advertise and yet have so few ways to do it effectively. This second international BB I've got running May 17 will likely earn me a net of a couple hundreds dollars--and that is nothing compared to the thousands that my old Amazon ads used to earn on one title alone.

It's like pushing a boulder up a hill, except the boulder keeps getting bigger and the hill keeps getting steeper.

[Crystal]

There are good AMS kws still but it's specific to the book. If you can really target similar covers or themes, specific themes not broad ones like bad boys or billionaires, you can get a decent ACoS. I wouldn't expect to make a profit on a standalone. But on a series of 2-3+ it's doable.

[JRTomlin]

Here's a question for those of you with experience. Does the very first newsletter ad in a stacked sequence produce the most sales? This time around I've carefully separated out the newsletter ads to one per day and no social media alerts, the purpose being to see exactly which ones produced sales. But the truth is that without a tracking pixel I have no way of knowing if a sale today is from the newsletter that hit yesterday or from today's ad. Similarly, after the BookBub tomorrow, there will be people who only look at the email on Tuesday or Wednesday, and I have other ads scheduled for those two days. So I won't really know exactly how many sales can be attributed to the BookBub newsletter alone.

This time around I've remembered to checking my book's rankings, which is entertainment. Haven't seen those numbers in a while.

I've found in the past when I've had a Bookbub without any other promo that the first day is the big hit, the second day produces about a quarter of that, the third day a quarter of day 2 and so on. Other promo sites seem to be similar. So you could use that as a very rough rule of thumb. But Bookbub dwarfs anything else.

It is definitely more effective to stack it with a few smaller advertisers. The first trick, of course, is getting the BB. I have lost track of how many I have had over the years, certainly more than a dozen. Twenty, maybe? But I still can't count on them and not being able to PLAN your advertising campaigns puts us at a huge disadvantage.

AMS as far as I am concerned can never be more than a drip campaign. I see no way to really build a platform using it.

[LilyBLily]

Here are the raw results of my international BookBub earlier this week: about 200 more sales than last month's, and so far a handful of full price sales of other titles. Just a sprinkling, not an avalanche.

As far as I can tell, the true international sales were 100 over BookBub's average. I am not well versed on the exact dollar figures involved at all the various stores, so I'm merely guessing that this ad will earn a profit of maybe $70-$100 more than the first one did. Canadian readers were getting a super deal and bought heavily. 

The ad stack winner was eReader IQ, which brought in 64 sales before the BookBub ad and only cost $10. BookDoggy ($20), FKBT ($30), and my newsletter ($7 per month, paid annually) each accounted for far fewer sales.

I expect to get a letter from Bookbub next week urging me to submit another title, and I will. I have one more women's fiction title that should work for the same audience.

Paying close attention to this was a good distraction during my last bit of self-imposed quarantine. 
 

[Pemry Janes]

Hadn't tried much of any marketing so far, but given that my third book in the series is coming out in a couple of months I thought this was a good time to step up my game there. Reading this topic helped and doing some more research I've applied for Book Barbarian. I also got accepted.

Here's hoping for some success.

[LilyBLily]

Hadn't tried much of any marketing so far, but given that my third book in the series is coming out in a couple of months I thought this was a good time to step up my game there. Reading this topic helped and doing some more research I've applied for Book Barbarian. I also got accepted.

Here's hoping for some success.

Good luck! If you haven't done so already, check out Nick Erik's roundup of promo sites: https://nicholaserik.com/promo-sites/

[notthatamanda]

Hadn't tried much of any marketing so far, but given that my third book in the series is coming out in a couple of months I thought this was a good time to step up my game there. Reading this topic helped and doing some more research I've applied for Book Barbarian. I also got accepted.

Here's hoping for some success.

Good luck.

[alhawke]

Reading this topic helped and doing some more research I've applied for Book Barbarian.

Good luck!
For genre specific, you might also want to have a look at Fantasy Book Deals. I had a $.99 fantasy promo with them last week that cost $15. Iit's well worth checking out for the cost of the promo. {edit: had 6 sales with their promo

[LilyBLily]

Let the countdown begin. I've applied for another BookBub. I applied for the whole deal, not just international.

[notthatamanda]

Good luck.

[Gerri Attrick]

Good luck, Lily.

I hope to apply for my first full BookBub fairly soon (had a couple of Internationals I was pleased with, but that's a few years back). I'll let you know how it goes.

[JRTomlin]

Hadn't tried much of any marketing so far, but given that my third book in the series is coming out in a couple of months I thought this was a good time to step up my game there. Reading this topic helped and doing some more research I've applied for Book Barbarian. I also got accepted.

Here's hoping for some success.

David Gaughran gives some good advice on advertising. You might check out this blog post.

https://davidgaughran.com/best-promo-sites-books/

[LilyBLily]

I got another international BookBub! 

[alhawke]

Congrats, LilyBlily!

[notthatamanda]

Congratulations!

[LilyBLily]

Thanks. Now I have a little time in which to decide whether it is worth my while to buy at least three other newsletter ads to stack. Did that last time but only one seemed to pull its weight. The profitability of an international BookBub ad is not such that one can go hog wild with additional ads.

[JRTomlin]

The fact that most newsletters don't have an international reach is an issue. I'm reducing the US price on mine as well and hoping that the two that I scheduled will pay for themselves. I just wish there was a way of planning our advertising campaigns instead of their being so catch-as-catch-can. But that is an impossible dream.

[LilyBLily]

The fact that most newsletters don't have an international reach is an issue. I'm reducing the US price on mine as well and hoping that the two that I scheduled will pay for themselves. I just wish there was a way of planning our advertising campaigns instead of their being so catch-as-catch-can. But that is an impossible dream.

You raise a very good point. Everything else connected with self-publishing is quite logical and basically simple even though there are many steps involved. Advertising feels like a game of 52 Pick-Up. 

[Pemry Janes]

Congratulations!

And I took your advice alhawke and now also have a promotion scheduled with Fantasy Book Deals.

[VanessaC]

I got another international BookBub! 

Congratulations! You're on a roll - hope this one does well for you, too.

[LilyBLily]

I got another international BookBub! 

Congratulations! You're on a roll - hope this one does well for you, too.

Thanks. This time I'm taking BookBub's advice to make the sale period short at all venues. BB claims that produces more full-price sales. We shall see. 

The profits involved for these international ads are minor by comparison to what my U.S. Amazon ads and my KU books earned me several years ago. Unfortunately, their efficacy has long since flatlined. These BB ads are a wonderful shot in the arm as well as seed money for more production expenses.   

I do feel I'm on a roll, but I only have one other published women's fiction novel, and I need to work on getting it many more reviews. Probably I must rewrite the blurb yet again, too. Oh, joy.

[alhawke]

This time I'm taking BookBub's advice to make the sale period short at all venues. BB claims that produces more full-price sales. We shall see. 

Let us know. IME, the sales right after a BB launch are not high enough to make back enough money so you're usually better off just building rank and continuing the sale. Most money was earned from other books in the series for me.

The other problem I've had with this strategy is that it's very hard for Amazon to return the price to regular price if you're wide. I griped about this on Writersanctum last year. If you're not in KU, you can expect a five to seven day lag to change the price back to normal.

It all doesn't matter much, anyway. You did it. Way to go! Two BB back to back, if I read the thread correctly, right? 

[LilyBLily]

Actually--amazingly!--three. April, May, June. All international. Each book is a stand-alone, but they are well branded. 

I expected trouble getting my Amazon prices back up but so far have not had any issues. This might be because I ended the sale prices on the wide venues several days earlier than on Amazon. I'll probably do the same again. 

 

[JRTomlin]

Ending the wide prices a couple of days before Amazon works for me as well. They want to see the other prices back up before they raise theirs.

[alhawke]

Actually--amazingly!--three. April, May, June. All international.

Three? Wow! Fantastic work. I guess I won't hesitate to apply more frequently after an acceptance. I'd never have thought you could land them back to back like that. I'm beginning to think reviews or timing or whatever else we think makes a difference is similar to a Baseball player's superstitious charm. Landing one is more like the Editor's whim.

Ending the wide prices a couple of days before Amazon works for me as well.

I do this regularly now but still have to frequently contact them 

[JRTomlin]

As soon as I am sure all the other prices are raised, I send them a Remove Price Match email, including links. I have had good luck with their responding within a day and returning the price to normal. I found that waiting for them to do it on their own did slow things down. It still ends up taking two or three days total for all the prices to go back up.

[LilyBLily]

I think many of us hesitate to apply, especially after we've just gotten rejected. I tried to take my feelings out of it by setting a goal this year of applying every month and ignoring the astronomical odds against me.

I got rejected in January and February on the same titles they accepted in April and May. Somehow the timing has worked in my favor very recently but there was absolutely no change in those titles between the rejections and the acceptances.

We're left with questions that the ever helpful BookBub blog does not answer. When I started this thread I was sure the low number of ratings/reviews on my titles was a serious negative, but that proved not to be the case.

Because most of us stack ads or social media around any BookBub deals--and often around any other newsletter ads--it's hard to know what the pure results of a BB ad are. Yet BB knows how many clicks there were and cites an average number of sales. Neither number is made available to us advertisers, though, on a case-by-case basis. That data would be very useful information to have. BB is not so different from Amazon after all.

[JRTomlin]

One of the things I do to try to get a better idea of how my various retailers actually do is schedule them on different days. There will still be some overlap but it gives at least some hint of which ones are giving a ROI and which aren't.

[Pemry Janes]

As soon as I am sure all the other prices are raised, I send them a Remove Price Match email, including links. I have had good luck with their responding within a day and returning the price to normal. I found that waiting for them to do it on their own did slow things down. It still ends up taking two or three days total for all the prices to go back up.

I had wondered about that, what is the preferred way to change the price for the promotion if you're wide? Just go in and change it manually in Amazon or send them a Price Match message?

[LilyBLily]

I changed the price manually.

[alhawke]

Just raised the price to two of my books. Waited three days. Nothing. Then emailed Amazon and received the message:
"I checked and confirm that the price of your books has been updated to $4.99 on Amazon website."
It's $3.99 on Amazon
I suppose the thing for me to do now with my high blood pressure is to just ignore the whole thing. I'm trying.
(on a positive note, another book that was changed got a sale two days ago the day it was listed as $3.99 $4.99 so perhaps our lack of control is not all a bad thing).

[notthatamanda]

Just raised the price to two of my books. Waited three days. Nothing. Then emailed Amazon and received the message:
"I checked and confirm that the price of your books has been updated to $4.99 on Amazon website."
It's $3.99 on Amazon
I suppose the thing for me to do now with my high blood pressure is to just ignore the whole thing. I'm trying.
(on a positive note, another book that was changed got a sale two days ago the day it was listed as $3.99 $4.99 so perhaps our lack of control is not all a bad thing).

That could mean that the price is set to $4.99 on your bookshelf but they are still price matching. I'll try to find my email to them that finally got the job done and PM you.

Nope, never mind the PM. They sent me a list of links to prove it wasn't free anymore but it was so I said:

The first link says the book is free.Please change it back to $2.99 on
amazon.com and to the corresponding price on all the other platforms if it says
free anywhere else.Thanks for your help. Amanda

[alhawke]

I wanted to raise it quicker to see if I could nudge a BB application (true & apropos for the thread). But ... rejected anyway. So now there's no rush. Back to applying next month. Never give up. 

[JRTomlin]

As soon as I am sure all the other prices are raised, I send them a Remove Price Match email, including links. I have had good luck with their responding within a day and returning the price to normal. I found that waiting for them to do it on their own did slow things down. It still ends up taking two or three days total for all the prices to go back up.

I had wondered about that, what is the preferred way to change the price for the promotion if you're wide? Just go in and change it manually in Amazon or send them a Price Match message?

It depends I suppose. I got in the habit of having Amazon doing it because you have to if you're reducing it to free. It also shows as price reduced if they do it which is nice advertising. On the other hand, obviously doing it yourself gives you more control BUT if you do it yourself, don't raise your Amazon price until all the other prices are raised or there is a good chance Amazon will price match to the lower price before the higher goes through. Arrrrgh They will pick then to be super-efficient. You can bet on it.

[LilyBLily]

I wanted to raise it quicker to see if I could nudge a BB application (true & apropos for the thread). But ... rejected anyway. So now there's no rush. Back to applying next month. Never give up. 

Definitely keep trying.

I've heard this advice often and ignored it for years. This year I finally was persistent and it has paid off. I'm sure you'll get accepted sooner or later. The only way to make it sooner is to keep applying. Duh.

[Lorri Moulton]

Congrats, Lily!   

You've inspired me to try again.  I'm going for Chick Lit International this time.  We'll see what happens!

[Lorri Moulton]

And...no.  I think I'm going to stop applying and focus on other things.  Like summer!   

[LilyBLily]

Sorry to hear that. BookBub isn't the only game, though.

I've got my ad stack ready for later this month and now I'm focusing on trying to get more reviews of my fourth women's fiction, in anticipation of submitting that title after this next international BookBub. I very much doubt I'd get a fourth international BookBub but the possibility is motivating me to make an effort. Unfortunately, what Tim has discovered about blurb copy on Amazon being a complete formatting nightmare daunts me from changing the ebook blurb, which luckily is not messed up but could be improved upon. The paperback blurb copy is a wreck. I attempted to change it in Author Central and am not surprised that nothing changed. I'm going to try to change it again, using KDP, but I don't have high hopes.

[JRTomlin]

And...no.  I think I'm going to stop applying and focus on other things.  Like summer!   

Enjoy! 

[Lorri Moulton]

My garden will be happy with this decision! LOL

[Eric Thomson]

I've applied 5 times a month since my last BB in February 2020, with nada to show for it. Not even a miserly international. Considering my sales remain pretty good without the sainted BB, and I've just signed a contract with Tantor Media for the audiobook rights for another of my series, I'll probably reduce my mechanical once a month per series and go with my whim. Their loss, not mine.

[Lorri Moulton]

I've applied 5 times a month since my last BB in February 2020, with nada to show for it. Not even a miserly international. Considering my sales remain pretty good without the sainted BB, and I've just signed a contract with Tantor Media for the audiobook rights for another of my series, I'll probably reduce my mechanical once a month per series and go with my whim. Their loss, not mine.

Congrats, Eric!

[notthatamanda]

I've applied 5 times a month since my last BB in February 2020, with nada to show for it. Not even a miserly international. Considering my sales remain pretty good without the sainted BB, and I've just signed a contract with Tantor Media for the audiobook rights for another of my series, I'll probably reduce my mechanical once a month per series and go with my whim. Their loss, not mine.

Good luck with the audio series!

[Pemry Janes]

I've applied 5 times a month since my last BB in February 2020, with nada to show for it. Not even a miserly international. Considering my sales remain pretty good without the sainted BB, and I've just signed a contract with Tantor Media for the audiobook rights for another of my series, I'll probably reduce my mechanical once a month per series and go with my whim. Their loss, not mine.

Congratulations on getting that deal.

In my own news, the bump from Book Barbarian has come and gone. Didn't earn my money back but given the low numbers I was happy to see how many picked up the sequel at full price. I had scheduled Fantasybook Deals right after, but apparently they had a technical problem and the newsletter didn't go out. So I'm going to reschedule there.

All in all, I think I will repeat this experiment again once the third book is out.

[LilyBLily]

I've applied 5 times a month since my last BB in February 2020, with nada to show for it. Not even a miserly international. Considering my sales remain pretty good without the sainted BB, and I've just signed a contract with Tantor Media for the audiobook rights for another of my series, I'll probably reduce my mechanical once a month per series and go with my whim. Their loss, not mine.

You're not missing much. I've had two this year and I won't be bothering again. They were profitable, but not by enough to bother with. Now they barely ever give us full features, I've pretty much written off BookBub as a tactic. The international only is simply not worth it. Might as well use click ads (PPC). They're cheap, easy to control, and they result in steady sales rather than a spike. That said, both AMS and BookBub PPC are too expensive unless you're in KU.

Most newsletter ads are unprofitable on the face of it, and repetition of those ads dulls the reception and becomes less and less profitable. If they don't produce a tail they're also a waste of time and all the energy involved in applying to each one and coordinating KU sale periods. The newsletter ads I did earlier this year did have some effect but that was temporary and in some cases (Fussy Librarian) pretty close to nonexistent. I suppose after throwing away money repeatedly on each newsletter, one might get a sense of what each one's audience prefers, but that's a very expensive method of gathering data. It also isn't a tactic for the long haul. Advertising to the same relatively small group of people over and over again will get less and less profitable judged on any basis.

PPC ads always were much more effective since they reach a much larger audience, but PPC ads on Amazon are no longer cheap nor easy to control. Amazon ads' algorithm changes have destroyed what used to be a steady drip of sales and reads. I am at a loss for what tactic will work next on a steady basis. I do intend to try Facebook ads yet again and will likely do BookBub PPC ads again, too.
 

[R. C.]

...

I gave up on AMS years ago (Amazon may have the reach, but the content mills have pushed cost per click way too high) and I gave up on BookBub PPC ads (they cost way too much for what you can sell).

I switched to Google 12 months ago. This year I created multiple ads (that's multiple tag lines, headers, images, and text) for all the books I promote. I'm now running through the sets for each book. Google run all the combinations of images, headers, tags, and text, then tell you how successful the combinations are. You can decide which combinations you to use based on how many conversions you're getting. I also set up ads by country, so now I can drive traffic to my web page from specific countries.

...

Are you finding success with Google ADs?  I found Google ADs (Video and Search) to be less effective than FB Video ADs. 

ALTHOUGH - Nothing is performing well in this summer slump.

Yes, FB is a quagmire of idiotic political BS.

R.C.

[LilyBLily]

Opinion on the best tutorials for Google Ads? I'm looking at Loves Data on YouTube.

[R. C.]

Opinion on the best tutorials for Google Ads? I'm looking at Loves Data on YouTube.

Cain't recommend a tutorial.  I started playing around after setting up a business account.  The most important thing is to ensure your bid/budget/optimization is constrained.  Everything within the tool is designed to "enhance" your spend.

FYI - I am running new "Display" (aka Video) ADs on Google as of this morning. Time will tell...

R.C.

[Lorri Moulton]

I've had great results with Fussy Librarian...even after repeatedly promoting the same Free first in series book.

[LilyBLily]

I've had great results with Fussy Librarian...even after repeatedly promoting the same Free first in series book.

This is why advice should always come with YMMV. We get different results because we are not selling widgets but unique reading experiences.

[LilyBLily]

My two titles that had international BookBubs have been receiving new ratings (not reviews). The first has 22 new so far. The second has over 40 new. Their ratings averages have been increasing, too, from 4.0 to 4.2 in one case.

When I consider that I paid $65 to NetGalley for what ended up as maybe 7 reviews directly linked to the service and posted on Amazon (more were posted on Goodreads), getting all these new ratings is a huge bonus in social proof.

In the future, I may ask my newsletter list to rate rather than to review. Reviewing is work. Rating is one click.

[TimothyEllis]

My two titles that had international BookBubs have been receiving new ratings (not reviews). The first has 22 new so far. The second has over 40 new.

It looks to me as if Amazon is pushing ratings again.

My current book has significantly higher now than any of the last three. There's no reason for that other than before that, Amazon was pushing ratings and then stopped. So they must be doing it again now.

[notthatamanda]

You mean pushing readers to leave ratings?

[TimothyEllis]

You mean pushing readers to leave ratings?

Yes.

More aggressive about asking for a rating when a reader gets to the end of a book.

I'm not sure how, but I'd guess that a lot of readers currently think they have to do a rating now. Like back when we got a lot of crap reviews because readers thought they had to do one.

[JRTomlin]

Getting mainly ratings rather than reviews is a bit of a problem with new novels. I had plenty of ratings but few reviews on one of mine. Well, it happened a very negative review (that I am pretty sure was actually for a different novel since the comments did not apply to mine) stayed at the top of the reviews for weeks. In the meantime, I got a lot of good ratings that of course did not push it down.

My 99˘ int'l BB promo that cost $204 ran yesterday. I supported it with about $100 advertising on BB and eReaderIQ. Counting sell-through to the rest of the series the sales have been $285. So I haven't reached the break-even point, but it's getting close. The price reduction lasts for one more day and the BB ad is still running and I'm still getting sales from the BB promo it looks like, so I am hopeful it will at least break even. Any RoI will take a while for more sell-though. Still, I've done worse on ad campaigns.

[LilyBLily]

Getting mainly ratings rather than reviews is a bit of a problem with new novels. I had plenty of ratings but few reviews on one of mine. Well, it happened a very negative review (that I am pretty sure was actually for a different novel since the comments did not apply to mine) stayed at the top of the reviews for weeks. In the meantime, I got a lot of good ratings that of course did not push it down.

My 99˘ int'l BB promo that cost $204 ran yesterday. I supported it with about $100 advertising on BB and eReaderIQ. Counting sell-through to the rest of the series the sales have been $285. So I haven't reached the break-even point, but it's getting close. The price reduction lasts for one more day and the BB ad is still running and I'm still getting sales from the BB promo it looks like, so I am hopeful it will at least break even. Any RoI will take a while for more sell-though. Still, I've done worse on ad campaigns.

I hope your numbers will draw ahead. Even a very small tail should do it. I'm still seeing a sale here or there on wide venues where I couldn't get arrested previously.

It never occurred to me to support the international ads with a U.S. BookBub PPC ad. I'll have to think about that. The problem is controlling the costs, but if the book is already discounted I've already done most of the work of a wide ad and it could be worth the risk.

As to my books with new ratings, they already had some decent reviews (and enough meh reviews to be credible). Of course I would prefer a bunch of thoughtful, enthusiastic, and new reviews, but I'll take what I can get.

[alhawke]

My 99˘ int'l BB promo that cost $204 ran yesterday. I supported it with about $100 advertising on BB and eReaderIQ. Counting sell-through to the rest of the series the sales have been $285. So I haven't reached the break-even point, but it's getting close.

Congrats! Sounds like you did great. I agree with LilBLily--your tail should pull you far ahead.

[LilyBLily]

<snip>
The last international I did (a month or so ago) was profitable, but it attracted some negative reviews because it's trilogy 3 in a well established world (a couple of readers had a tantrum because you have to read the earlier trilogies to fully understand how everything came to be). That trilogy had a 4.8 rating and it now has a 4.4 solely because of the international BookBub. It really wasn't worth it.

Oh, ouch. 

[JRTomlin]

The sales hit $350 today so it is ahead now. My previous experience with internationals was not exactly encouraging, so I'm happy to see that.

With the BB PPC ads, the trick I believe is targeting. I did some test ads, which were a bit expensive since some of the tests were failures. However, I did end up with a list of comp authors to target that gives me a good number of clicks. The other issue is cost. I try to keep that low because I am pretty sure that I only get about 8% sales which obviously means I don't want to pay much for each click.

[LilyBLily]

The sales hit $350 today so it is ahead now. My previous experience with internationals was not exactly encouraging, so I'm happy to see that.

With the BB PPC ads, the trick I believe is targeting. I did some test ads, which were a bit expensive since some of the tests were failures. However, I did end up with a list of comp authors to target that gives me a good number of clicks. The other issue is cost. I try to keep that low because I am pretty sure that I only get about 8% sales which obviously means I don't want to pay much for each click.

 

[LilyBLily]

This time around I decided to do a BookBub CPC ad for the days after the international BB ad. Tight budget and targeting and the sale price is on the ad to make the deal very clear. We shall see.

[idontknowyet]

Eek! I applied for my first bookbub!!!

[alhawke]

Eek! I applied for my first bookbub!!!

Good luck! 

[JRTomlin]

Eek! I applied for my first bookbub!!!

Good luck. Hopefully, you'll get it on your first try, but if you don't that doesn't mean you should give up. To use my own experience as an example, over the past 6 years I have had 19 Bookbub promotions, all but 2 including the US. But between my last two, I was turned down seven times. 🤷‍♀️

There have been times when I've had more than that turned down in a row. So persistence pays.

[LilyBLily]

Eek! I applied for my first bookbub!!!

Good luck!

[Pemry Janes]

Eek! I applied for my first bookbub!!!

Good luck!

[Jeff Tanyard]

Eek! I applied for my first bookbub!!!

Good luck!

And if you get turned down, don't sweat it.  I didn't get an acceptance until the thirteenth submission.  And there are others who have had far more rejections than that before getting their first acceptances.

[notthatamanda]

Eek! I applied for my first bookbub!!!

Fingers crossed for you!

[JRTomlin]

Gah! I was so sure I had price changes on Amazon down pat. (reminder to self: never brag)

I did my Amazon price change to 99˘ manually rather than depend on a price match. When the promotion ended, I changed all the wide prices back but not Amazon. Once I checked that the other price changes had gone through, I changed Amazon quite sure that I would avoid a price-match. And Amazon still price matched to prices no longer in effect! *tears hair out*

Email them and received their 'we'll take a few days to think about it' response. 🤦‍♀️

[alhawke]

Email them and received their 'we'll take a few days to think about it' response. 🤦‍♀️

It's super irritating.    I'm surprised when I don't have problems now.

[alhawke]

  Just realized my new book is still "price matched" at $0.99 in Amazon Canada after two weeks. 

[idontknowyet]

I am totally not shocked that i didn't get my bookbub.

Refusal #1

[JRTomlin]

I *think* all my 'price matching' is fixed now, but I might have missed something. *heavy sigh*

I am totally not shocked that i didn't get my bookbub.

Refusal #1

It's always good to get that first one out of the way. Better luck next time!

[LilyBLily]

I am totally not shocked that i didn't get my bookbub.

Refusal #1

Better luck next time!   

[JRTomlin]

I am totally not shocked that i didn't get my bookbub.

Refusal #1

You're not missing much. These days I prefer to use tactics I can control like the click ads and promo stack you're running. You don't need anyone's approval to do that!

I totally sympathise and use those tactics as well. Unfortunately, none of them bring me the results of BB promotion. I sincerely wish they did. It is way beyond irritating that we cannot properly plan our promotions.

[JRTomlin]

This one I combined with a BB click ad and a couple of other promos and it was all right, not great but worth doing.

ETA: I am definitely a 'little indie'. Having had quite a few BB promos including in the recent past, I feel safe in saying that it is not impossible to get one. It is difficult. It almost always takes a number of tries and is definitely discouraging. It isn't fun getting 8 or 10 rejections before you get one. But it can eventually pay off.

[Simon Haynes]

Just got another intl bookbub deal. Applied last night my time, accepted when I checked this morning.

The promo is for the 3rd of July, and I'm going to discount the book in question for the whole month. (Makes it much easier to book all the US-centric promos with their lengthy lead times.)

I'm 5 for 5 with submissions/acceptances with BB recently, all of them international alas, but I will never turn my nose up at those.

What surprises me is that I still have books which ran BBs 'recently' (to me) and it turns out they were 2 years ago.

[alhawke]

I'm 5 for 5 with submissions/acceptances with BB recently

Awesomeness! 

[notthatamanda]

Just got another intl bookbub deal. Applied last night my time, accepted when I checked this morning.

The promo is for the 3rd of July, and I'm going to discount the book in question for the whole month. (Makes it much easier to book all the US-centric promos with their lengthy lead times.)

I'm 5 for 5 with submissions/acceptances with BB recently, all of them international alas, but I will never turn my nose up at those.

What surprises me is that I still have books which ran BBs 'recently' (to me) and it turns out they were 2 years ago.

Congratulations and good luck!

[LilyBLily]

Just got another intl bookbub deal. Applied last night my time, accepted when I checked this morning.

The promo is for the 3rd of July, and I'm going to discount the book in question for the whole month. (Makes it much easier to book all the US-centric promos with their lengthy lead times.)

I'm 5 for 5 with submissions/acceptances with BB recently, all of them international alas, but I will never turn my nose up at those.

What surprises me is that I still have books which ran BBs 'recently' (to me) and it turns out they were 2 years ago.

 

[LilyBLily]

I have one more women's fiction title published and once this latest international is over I will submit that last book. I don't expect it to get accepted, but I might do a U.S.-only 99-cent discount stack next month on my own and see if I can get anywhere with it. I'm still picking up full-price sales based on the other combo promos spearheaded by the international BookBub ads. There definitely is a small tail.

[LilyBLily]

I should probably put this under "Shooting myself in the foot." My promo stack for this month's international BookBub starts today and for some reason I had "Manually reduce the Amazon price" on my calendar for today also.

 

When I got to the "It could take up to 72 hours" screen I realized my error. Oops.

 

But all's well that ends well, since Amazon sent me the confirmation email early this morning. Let the games begin!

 

[notthatamanda]

Good luck!

[Gerri Attrick]

Good luck, Simon and Lily.

I'm thinking of applying to Bookbub again. Book 5 in my mystery series is due to be published on 23rd July - it is currently on pre-order. All the books are in KU and I have never run a free promo on any of them, but I'm thinking of making the first in the series free to help promote the new release.

The question is, when should I do it? A week before? The same day? A week after? I've really no idea what will work best.

If I can't get a BB (or even if I do) I'll probably apply to Fussy Librarian. They've worked well for me in the past on a permafree first in another series.

[LilyBLily]

Speculating that when the new release is not a pre-order anymore and new readers can have instant gratification would work best for sell-through. If you'll have a batch of reviews within the first week, that might sway BB, too. Certainly mention to BB that the proposed ad would coincide with a new release (which you already will have BB sending to your followers, right?).

Simon, go for the gold. 

[Simon Haynes]

Got an email from Amazon last week asking if I was interested in a Kindle Deal on a different book (first in series) for amazon.co.uk.  I've had these before and they never eventuated, so I just clicked yes and forgot about it.

Well, it got accepted, and that book is a 99p featured deal for the month of July on amazon UK.  I've not had one of these in my 10+ years as an indie author, but to be honest my expectations are low as I've heard from various sources it's not that much of a thing.

[LilyBLily]

Got an email from Amazon last week asking if I was interested in a Kindle Deal on a different book (first in series) for amazon.co.uk.  I've had these before and they never eventuated, so I just clicked yes and forgot about it.

Well, it got accepted, and that book is a 99p featured deal for the month of July on amazon UK.  I've not had one of these in my 10+ years as an indie author, but to be honest my expectations are low as I've heard from various sources it's not that much of a thing.

Still, it could mean a trickle of additional attention and revenue. 

[Simon Haynes]

Absolutely, and if I had to pick a book of mine which is perfect for the UK market, it's this one.

[notthatamanda]

Got an email from Amazon last week asking if I was interested in a Kindle Deal on a different book (first in series) for amazon.co.uk.  I've had these before and they never eventuated, so I just clicked yes and forgot about it.

Well, it got accepted, and that book is a 99p featured deal for the month of July on amazon UK.  I've not had one of these in my 10+ years as an indie author, but to be honest my expectations are low as I've heard from various sources it's not that much of a thing.

Good luck with it.

[LilyBLily]

So far, I am not sanguine about this international BookBub. I thought the ad copy BB wrote was particularly weak, and I am not surprised that the sales reported are meh. I think it's possible I will break even but I would be shocked if there was a profit. Bummer.

Additionally, I just checked my BookBub click ad--which shows the discount price of 99 cents on the ad--and it was delivering clicks at 83 and 84 cents per click. I've stopped it cold. It had a hard budget limit of $30 and just spent half in the last three hours. I might be able to ascribe 8 sales to Kobo, but I won't know about Apple until tomorrow and I am not optimistic enough to chance it. The click price is way too high. Correct me if I am wrong about stopping this ad, and I will turn it on again. 

[alhawke]

So far, I am not sanguine about this international BookBub. I thought the ad copy BB wrote was particularly weak, and I am not surprised that the sales reported are meh. I think it's possible I will break even but I would be shocked if there was a profit. Bummer. 

Hopefully you'll put out in the end with a tail. My international BB did. Something to consider is that in the US we're in vacation-everyone-go-out-and-play-post-covid mode. I really think this is effecting sales. Unfortunately, I have a big non BB promo scheduled in two weeks and I have a feeling the state of the world will effect mine too.
(BookBub update: at 15 rejections since my last BookBub and counting 

[LilyBLily]

So far, I am not sanguine about this international BookBub. I thought the ad copy BB wrote was particularly weak, and I am not surprised that the sales reported are meh. I think it's possible I will break even but I would be shocked if there was a profit. Bummer. 

Hopefully you'll put out in the end with a tail. My international BB did. Something to consider is that in the US we're in vacation-everyone-go-out-and-play-post-covid mode. I really think this is effecting sales. Unfortunately, I have a big non BB promo scheduled in two weeks and I have a feeling the state of the world will effect mine too.
(BookBub update: at 15 rejections since my last BookBub and counting 

Thanks. This meager showing puts a different spin on my immediate plans, as my edit to the above post shows. I've stopped the BB click ad since it is hemorrhaging. I'll send out my newsletter a day earlier than planned and do my social media announcements sooner, too.   

[LilyBLily]

And I have that Hello Books ad scheduled for late next week (they come out on Fridays) when many people will be busy with family reunions and bbqs and all the rest for Fourth of July.  I don't know whether to or to 

[alhawke]

And I have that Hello Books ad scheduled for late next week (they come out on Fridays) when many people will be busy with family reunions and bbqs and all the rest for Fourth of July.  I don't know whether to or to 

I've never used Hello Books. It's a Facebooks group promotion, right??
I'd just run your ad. There's just know way to tell. My blitz starts the week after on the week of July 12th and I'm sure I'm facing summer travel/bbq stuff then too but I'm carrying on.

[LilyBLily]

It's Facebook. I had thought it might cut into full-price sales that would be sell-through from this BookBub, but now I doubt such an unsuccessful BB ad will produce sell-through. So it will be a more or less clean slate test of Hello Books.

On the positive side, the ratings are still rolling in for the title that was featured in my second BB international ad. Getting something like 70 new ratings without forking over a couple hundred dollars to review sites is just as good as money in the bank to me. (That never happened the two times I did free runs of other titles, by the way. People grabbed the books but did not read them. Guess they liked the cover art.)

[LilyBLily]

One of the shockers about this failed international ad is that so far--and this is the last day of the promo--I've had exactly one sale on Barnes & Noble total. Late reporting? I don't think so. Very late or screwed up reporting? Maybe. A bad link? BookBub tests all the links in advance AFAIK to make sure the titles are discounted. When I was missing one market on a prior ad, they emailed me to alert me. The B&N store shows the book discounted, too. It's a mystery. Even Google Play, a venue where my books normally seem to be invisible, reports many more sales than B&N this time around.

Currently, this BB ad has paid for itself but not yet earned out the other ads I stacked. It's going to be close, unless B&N suddenly reports a bunch of missing sales. 


 

[RiverRun]

I had a book ad this week with Hello Books. I made it free in KU for 5 days, with the ad running on the third day. First couple days I gave away 50 books or so a day (no promotion). Day of the ad I gave away over 400. (genre is historical mystery) In case you want something to compare it to. Fussy librarian was double that, (the only other ad I've had for this book) but since Hello Books is new, I didn't expect much. No sell thru because I have not finished the next book in the series yet. It was mostly a low cost way to have something moving on my kdp page:) And, theoretically, to gain more visibility, ratings, etc.

[LilyBLily]

B&N can be slow to report or even miss entirely. I had a 8 days of zero sales and wrote to B&N. Sure enough they had a glitch and the sales were reported for all days.

I would write to them. Tell them you had a BookBub and get them to check the sales report.

Great idea. I will do that.

[LilyBLily]

I had a book ad this week with Hello Books. I made it free in KU for 5 days, with the ad running on the third day. First couple days I gave away 50 books or so a day (no promotion). Day of the ad I gave away over 400. (genre is historical mystery) In case you want something to compare it to. Fussy librarian was double that, (the only other ad I've had for this book) but since Hello Books is new, I didn't expect much. No sell thru because I have not finished the next book in the series yet. It was mostly a low cost way to have something moving on my kdp page:) And, theoretically, to gain more visibility, ratings, etc.

Mine is this coming weekend, at 99 cents. I'm not promoting it anywhere else during the weekend sale period because I want to see exactly what Hello Books can do for me on its own. Also because that title has already been seen via a sales stack surrounding a BookBub international ad and I want this discount to appear to a totally new audience.

[Jeff Tanyard]

One of the shockers about this failed international ad is that so far--and this is the last day of the promo--I've had exactly one sale on Barnes & Noble total.

That doesn't really surprise me.  B&N is an American retailer, by which I mean it's the "least international" of the major retailers.

[LilyBLily]

One of the shockers about this failed international ad is that so far--and this is the last day of the promo--I've had exactly one sale on Barnes & Noble total.

That doesn't really surprise me.  B&N is an American retailer, by which I mean it's the "least international" of the major retailers.

Lol. I've just realized lilybily ran an international-only, which might explain why there aren't any B&N sales.

PS I'd still check with B&N to be sure.

They haven't answered yet. The previous BB international ads resulted in hundreds of sales, which quite surprised me. This book has been advertised to U.S. readers on BB in a click ad and on a couple of ad newsletters and in my own newsletter. It's unlikely that every single sale from all those U.S. ads would be on Amazon and zero would be on B&N. 

[LilyBLily]

Still no answer from B&N after writing them a second time. The sales page remains amazingly empty.

Absent those potential sales, this third international BB ad has just squeaked by into profitability, but was hardly worth my time and effort to create the sales stack and make all the pricing changes and then police them. Amazon did promptly put my regular price back up, but Google, which is not supposed to require manual intervention, had to be manually adjusted anyway.

I doubt I will want to submit to BB again for another six months. I've learned a few things and made a small profit, but it wasn't life-changing. Fun to watch the numbers, though.

[LilyBLily]

B&N sent me a "You're an idiot who can't read a dashboard" reply complete with helpful descriptions of all the (currently blank) sales charts. I wrote back and reiterated that they should investigate.

It is of course theoretically possible that among the many hundreds of cheap sales this round of ads produced, only one was on B&N. I don't believe it. Or maybe the link BookBub used was broken. But they test. Or maybe the links on the other ads were all broken. Maybe? Nah.

[LilyBLily]

I submitted my fourth women's fiction novel to BookBub but only for an international deal. Hemmed and hawed and decided "Why not?" YOLO, and so on.

[Rod Little]

So far, I am not sanguine about this international BookBub. I thought the ad copy BB wrote was particularly weak, and I am not surprised that the sales reported are meh. I think it's possible I will break even but I would be shocked if there was a profit. Bummer. 

Their ad copy for mine was weak, too, and demonstrated they had no idea what my book was about. The int'l BB had mediocre results. I think it was break-even with some minor sell-thru.

[LilyBLily]

So far, I am not sanguine about this international BookBub. I thought the ad copy BB wrote was particularly weak, and I am not surprised that the sales reported are meh. I think it's possible I will break even but I would be shocked if there was a profit. Bummer. 

Their ad copy for mine was weak, too, and demonstrated they had no idea what my book was about. The int'l BB had mediocre results. I think it was break-even with some minor sell-thru.

That's a shame. 

With the current submission I basically wrote the ad copy in the comment section, since that one also needs the right copy or forget it. BB is a shiny object that distracts. I'm almost ready to move on. 

BookBub is now sending me a separate newsletter filled with trad pub titles, all of them $1.99 and up. The advertisers are paying a lot for these, but there is nothing in my BB buying history to encourage BB to believe I'd buy any of these books.  And there's a third that claims to be new releases discounted. And then there are all the partner newsletters pushing their blog and their simplistic advice. I can't be the only person who feels inundated with newsletters from this one company. That has to affect the effectiveness of their main newsletter.

[Eric Thomson]

I've given up on BB. And just to add insult to injury, I'm having a hard time adding new releases to "My Books" It took me half a dozen tries for one before it showed up in my books and I'm still trying for the other. It wouldn't surprise me if BB's day is over, at least for us non-trad publishers.

[LilyBLily]

I can't find the thread on Hello Books but since I mentioned it upstream, here are the results of my weekend promo: It cost $25 and has earned about $10. I'd say that puts Hello Books in the ranks of so-so and overpriced newsletter ads, only useful when doing a big splash launch. It also requires a newsletter and social media cross promotion on the author's part, and paying for that when BookFunnel and other services have plenty of those group promos, all free, seems unnecessary.

[idontknowyet]

I kinda think its crazy that they charge when at this part they are harvesting 'our' audiences to build theirs.


They get more from it than the individual authors.

[LilyBLily]

The weird thing is I got an email saying it cost $15, but no, it cost $25. The other disappointment is that it does not share any of Mark Dawson's huge audience. I don't write thrillers so I may be mistaken about that, and of course there are some ethical issues about sharing audiences, but that's the whole point of these author group promotions in which each author does a newsletter puffing the group's books. I did them for many months and saw no huge advantage, but I suppose I could try them again (free) through BookFunnel now that my Amazon ads are turned off and get a purer result.

[LilyBLily]

 

My face is red. According to BookBub, I never asked for the recent deal to include Barnes & Noble. You know how in their page listing the stores it always claims they don't have the B&N link? I'm sure I put it in, but they say I didn't. I have no proof, but regardless, BookBub did not point my ad to B&N and that accounts for lost sales of $100 at minimum. The difference between break even and a modest profit. Sigh.

 

[TimothyEllis]

According to BookBub, I never asked for the recent deal to include Barnes & Noble. You know how in their page listing the stores it always claims they don't have the B&N link? I'm sure I put it in, but they say I didn't. I have no proof

Take a photo of the next one.

[Anarchist]

I can't find the thread on Hello Books but since I mentioned it upstream, here are the results of my weekend promo: It cost $25 and has earned about $10. I'd say that puts Hello Books in the ranks of so-so and overpriced newsletter ads, only useful when doing a big splash launch. It also requires a newsletter and social media cross promotion on the author's part, and paying for that when BookFunnel and other services have plenty of those group promos, all free, seems unnecessary.

When Hello Books first launched, I subbed and began watching the non-fiction titles promoted in it. I saw very little movement in those books' sales ranks. For example, a non-fic book in the top position at $0.99 would have a 100,000+ sales rank the day of the promo. The day after, 80,000.

Uninspiring.

[LilyBLily]

I did write them back and gently suggest that I had filled in the appropriate information, but this is a dead issue now. Since I don't expect to do another BB ad this year (even though I did apply), I'll just remember, if I ever get another, to take a screen shot and later double check the page that shows where the ad will point (a page I didn't even know about until now). I am not likely to forget having lost money on a simple glitch.



 

[LilyBLily]

I did write them back and gently suggest that I had filled in the appropriate information, but this is a dead issue now. Since I don't expect to do another BB ad this year (even though I did apply), I'll just remember, if I ever get another, to take a screen shot and later double check the page that shows where the ad will point (a page I didn't even know about until now). I am not likely to forget having lost money on a simple glitch.

Okay, I'm confused again. B&N is US only and you did an international BookBub. The real question is what happened to the sales from the other newsletters you used.

PS I always forget B&N is US only. Trips me up every time I do an international-only BookBub.

Yes, it's strange, but the prior two BB ads sold hundreds of copies via B&N. I don't exactly know where! And it's a good question about the other newsletters. I got yet another answer from B&N insisting there was only one sale during that period. Just one.

[LilyBLily]

Good idea about buying a copy to see if the sale is properly reported by B&N. The title is back to full price now, though, and I will try with my next discounted title instead. 

The sales that did not happen would have been through BookBub, no question in my mind. I've never had another newsletter deliver hundreds of sales, ever. 

[LilyBLily]

The Amazon.com sales were 25%-30% of what .au, .ca, or .uk were. Not derived from a U.S. Bookbub ad. Probably from international customers who shop .com, but could also be from hangovers from the stacked U.S. ads.

B&N's website says it welcomes international customers but only sells in the U.S. BB must have lots of international readers on its list who buy from B&N.

[LilyBLily]

It still doesn't explain where those B&N sales went. I think it's a problem with B&N. Being somewhat stubborn, I would buy my own books to check sales are recording. I would even run up PPC ads targeting B&N just to prove my point, then I would hunt B&N down.

But that's just me. 

BookBub says they did not include a B&N link in their ad. Hence, no sales. That's what I said above. Apparently, I did not add the B&N link. Dang.

[LilyBLily]

It still doesn't explain where those B&N sales went. I think it's a problem with B&N. Being somewhat stubborn, I would buy my own books to check sales are recording. I would even run up PPC ads targeting B&N just to prove my point, then I would hunt B&N down.

But that's just me. 

BookBub says they did not include a B&N link in their ad. Hence, no sales. That's what I said above. Apparently, I did not add the B&N link. Dang.

But you can't add a B&N link in an international-only, can you?

BookBub asks for one, and the sales on B&N on prior BB international deals are proof the customers exist. 

[LilyBLily]

Silly me, I did not take a screen shot of my recent submission to BookBub, either, and can't recall if a B&N link was asked for. I did apply only for international, though.

Doesn't matter, as they've just turned the book down, ending my streak. Frankly, I am relieved. There's a Google ads webinar today I'm planning to attend and they and the other ads offer more promise than any number of international BookBubs do.

[alhawke]

I'll throw this out here. I've thought of it for a while now. You guys let me know if you've seen the trend.

Seems to me that more books are being advertised on BookBub newsletters than ever before. Although that means more acceptances, it means lower performance. I actually think this is happening across the board with all the promo companies. Probably it's to offset promo costs because, obviously, they make more money the more authors come on board and pay.

Why mention it? It bodes lower performance.

[LilyBLily]

The Google ads webinar was run by Siteground and was at the basic level and went too fast, but it gave a few good tips and was a good overview of what Google ads can do.

I'm happy to see that Google ads have negative keyword targeting. I hope theirs words better than Amazon's.

[LilyBLily]

To add to Tweek's thoughts, in my longtime experience with people coming into the romance field with an eye mostly on profits and promotion rather than on telling a heartfelt romance story, there is a defined arc to their usually meteoric rise. Then they vanish. They're very good at the selling part but not so good at the storytelling part. Even with the vast Harlequin machine behind them back in the day, they often could not create a loyal following. It's the same thing today. Readers can tell the difference between someone who writes a light entertainment lightly and someone who puts heart in it. Readers will read both, but they become loyal fans of the author with heart.

So why do these successful self-promoters vanish? Maybe because they earned X dollars and are bored with writing and have gone on to another challenge. Maybe because they wanted to make a bigger splash than they did and have decided to use their talents doing something that gives them a better return on their effort. And maybe because they wanted to prove a point and they did and that was enough. Some very talented authors have left the field not for economic reasons at all but because they had other things they wanted to do with their lives.

When I got into indie publishing, many people were announcing that they had quit their day jobs. It was a wonderful, heady period but it did not last. I suspect as Tweek says that many did not find success with their next books. They're probably back at their old jobs, although I hope for their sakes they saved some of the fleeting big money and took some financial pressure off themselves.

[alhawke]

When I got into indie publishing, many people were announcing that they had quit their day jobs. It was a wonderful, heady period but it did not last.

Why do I always do things at the wrong time? But maybe it's a good thing. Maybe it means people entering the biz will have a passion for it and strive to put out better stuff. I dunno. Or maybe I'm an idiot. 
Regarding newsletters and more books, I wish I had the stats. I don't. But over the past year I've noticed at least an additional book or two snuck in BB and the like.

[LilyBLily]

When I got into indie publishing, many people were announcing that they had quit their day jobs. It was a wonderful, heady period but it did not last.

Why do I always do things at the wrong time? But maybe it's a good thing. Maybe it means people entering the biz will have a passion for it and strive to put out better stuff. I dunno. Or maybe I'm an idiot. 
Regarding newsletters and more books, I wish I had the stats. I don't. But over the past year I've noticed at least an additional book or two snuck in BB and the like.

I wasn't there for the beginning of the gold rush, either. It was ending during the year it took me to get ready to publish my first books. I needed and got the life-changing ability to write novels and get them published without interference by people wanting to create a factory production line. I'm happy about that.

[Simon Haynes]

The BB emails have the featured deals, then the 'you might also like' section which is somewhat less relevant, and then the usual ad for free/99c stuff at the bottom.

I skim them these days - partly because if I select to see deals from Amazon.com, half the deals aren't available in Australia (anything from major publishers, basically), and if I use amazon.com.au when I click on a deal it asks me to transfer my account from amazon.com to australia (not happening), and THEN I go to amazon.com and discover the deal is international only.

Screwed both ways, to be honest. Makes the emails useless, but I like to see what's going on anyway.

[TimothyEllis]

I am wondering now how Vella will affect KU. Fair to say some of the subscribers might prefer the Vella model and leave KU.

I don't think that will happen much.

KU is mainly used by people with big reading habits, and very short pockets.

Vella as far as I can see will cost a lot more over the long haul than KU does.

[alhawke]

... half the deals aren't available in Australia (anything from major publishers, basically), and if I use amazon.com.au when I click on a deal it asks me to transfer my account from amazon.com to australia (not happening), and THEN I go to amazon.com and discover the deal is international only.

Some entrepreneur should work the international market. Surprising newsletters are so US based only.

[JRTomlin]

When I got into indie publishing, many people were announcing that they had quit their day jobs. It was a wonderful, heady period but it did not last. I suspect as Tweek says that many did not find success with their next books. They're probably back at their old jobs, although I hope for their sakes they saved some of the fleeting big money and took some financial pressure off themselves.

This business has always been a bit like Amazon itself; big egos and a lot of smoke and mirrors. It's always seemed less about how well and author is doing and more about what it looks like they're doing. To that end, a lot of the so-called successful authors were actually modestly successful. It always made me chuckle when people judged earnings by revenue and not profit.

I suspect some people experienced a level of success, but have progressively found their profit margins declining, and it's taking more and more marketing money and books to get the same earnings. I am wondering now how Vella will affect KU. Fair to say some of the subscribers might prefer the Vella model and leave KU.

Very few authors have EVER been able to actually make a living at writing. Those of us who have need to count ourselves very lucky indeed. I do think that there is a somewhat larger number who do now but it is still a tiny percentage of the people who write.

It is taking more marketing than ever before as well. And access to marketing is more competitive. Still, I'm in no position to complain.

[LilyBLily]

Plenty of kids shooting baskets think they're going to be the next LeBron James, too. People need dreams, and there's nothing wrong with being ambitious. Successes happen all the time. The odds never are particularly good, though.

There's usually a moment when any hot new trend can be leaped on to produce a huge profit. It's fleeting. Most people aren't able to hop on it, and even the ones who do usually can't pivot fast enough to keep hopping on the next new trend, and the next, and the next.

Ebooks were a hot new trend ten years ago. They aren't anymore. It's easier than ever for new authors to make their mark and earn significant income, but not from the sheer novelty of releasing an ebook. That's the grounding new authors need to understand.

[PaulineMRoss]

When I got into indie publishing, many people were announcing that they had quit their day jobs. It was a wonderful, heady period but it did not last. I suspect as Tweek says that many did not find success with their next books. They're probably back at their old jobs, although I hope for their sakes they saved some of the fleeting big money and took some financial pressure off themselves.

It was indeed a wonderful, heady period, and part of the euphoria was that it seemed as if all you had to do was knock out a few pot-boilers and sit back and watch the money roll in, while you leaf through the yacht catalogues. And for some people, it really was like that, but for most, not so much.

So those who were serious knuckled down, got thoroughly professional and planned a career rather than crossing their fingers. And you know what? For a lot of them, it worked. They became successful, and they're still successful, still making a living from this game.

And that strategy is still working today. Admittedly, there are still people who reverse into success (like me, for instance), but I know of a number of indie authors in my genre who have built successful careers from a standing start in the last two or three years. Some of them group together to haul each other up, which is a very successful strategy, but true independents can do it too, just a bit more slowly.

So I disagree with the whole 'golden age' thinking. We're still in the golden age, and although it might be a bit more work to get going, and take a bit more money and/or planning, it's perfectly possible.

[JRTomlin]

Well, shockarooney, I just got a BB US/int'l promo, my 1st since July of last year. I did go several months without applying for one though and got that int'l one. It's a freebie for A King Imperiled so it is still possible to get one. Just don't count on it happening very often.

I still prefer 99˘ ones but I'll take the freebie.

[LilyBLily]

Well, shockarooney, I just got a BB US/int'l promo, my 1st since July of last year. I did go several months without applying for one though and got that int'l one. It's a freebie for A King Imperiled so it is still possible to get one. Just don't count on it happening very often.

I still prefer 99˘ ones but I'll take the freebie.

Whoa! Congratulations! 

[Crystal]

I thought Amazon said 1,000 authors earned 100k and it was unclear if they meant more than 1000 or only 1000.

I assume they meant 1000 but not enough to justify saying 2000. So potentially up to 1400 or so.

Some of those people earn less with ad spend. Some earn more from other platforms.

[notthatamanda]

Well, shockarooney, I just got a BB US/int'l promo, my 1st since July of last year. I did go several months without applying for one though and got that int'l one. It's a freebie for A King Imperiled so it is still possible to get one. Just don't count on it happening very often.

I still prefer 99˘ ones but I'll take the freebie.

Congratulations and good luck.

[alhawke]

Well, shockarooney, I just got a BB US/int'l promo, my 1st since July of last year. I did go several months without applying for one though and got that int'l one. It's a freebie for A King Imperiled so it is still possible to get one. Just don't count on it happening very often.

I still prefer 99˘ ones but I'll take the freebie.

Congrats! Wishing you many sales.   

[R. C.]

I'm Oh-Fer-Four but this time the rejection took a lot longer.

Not sure why it required a couple of weeks to say no, but I take it as a positive. See there, silver linings are everywhere if you look hard enough,

R.C.

[LilyBLily]

I'm Oh-Fer-Four but this time the rejection took a lot longer.

Not sure why it required a couple of weeks to say no, but I take it as a positive. See there, silver linings are everywhere if you look hard enough,

R.C.

 

[lea_owens]

Congratulations to anyone who can get a BB.

I've tried for 100 or more BBs and never had any luck - I start for a .99 feature, and work down to a free all places then free international, but they've never looked at me. My last try was for a free promotion of my most popular book because I was releasing a sequel - it had almost 300 reviews and 85% of them were five-star and 10% four-star, so it should have ticked the right boxes (it now has 339 - same ratio).

So, I went back to Nicholas Erik's promotional list and did a stack of Fussy Librarian, FreeBooksy, Book Cave, BookDoggy, and Red Roses Romance for a free promotion - the total cost was about half a BB, I had 6,700 downloads, and the book went to #20 overall free (that position probably fueled most of the downloads) and #1 in all categories. The sequel has made nearly $2,000 in six weeks, so I'm happy with the stacked promotion.

I'd still love to try a get a BB one day, but they're not interested in any of my books. I've seen some blinking awful and ordinary books promoted on BB with barely any reviews and I figure I must have offended someone there at some stage.

[Rod Little]

I've seen some blinking awful and ordinary books promoted on BB with barely any reviews and I figure I must have offended someone there at some stage.

I've seen a lot lately that have me scratching my head. Recently saw one with 11 reviews and a spelling error in the blurb.  - and yet it got chosen over others. I have a feeling it's "who you know" that matters and not what you're promoting (like anything in life).

[TimothyEllis]

I've seen a lot lately that have me scratching my head. Recently saw one with 11 reviews and a spelling error in the blurb.  - and yet it got chosen over others. I have a feeling it's "who you know" that matters and not what you're promoting (like anything in life).

More like the whims of the selectors. They only select what they like reading.

Probably about editing as well. I'm pretty sure they reject me because I don't edit to literary standards. I write rollicking yarns, and not literature. But if the selector prefers literature, anyone not writing that way will get rejected.

[Doglover]

I've never applied for a Bookbub, but I did read their guide to getting one. It talked a lot about the importance of an excellent cover, then showed some examples. They all looked like they'd been drawn by a three year old! I certainly wouldn't have looked at a book with one of their prime examples.

[TimothyEllis]

I've never applied for a Bookbub, but I did read their guide to getting one. It talked a lot about the importance of an excellent cover, then showed some examples. They all looked like they'd been drawn by a three year old! I certainly wouldn't have looked at a book with one of their prime examples.

I had that argument with Podium once.

They wanted to do new covers for the audiobooks, and pointed me towards examples of their artist's work.

All of them were to my eyes horrendous, and very very Trad.

I think that attitude also prevails at BB.

[notthatamanda]

I've seen some blinking awful and ordinary books promoted on BB with barely any reviews and I figure I must have offended someone there at some stage.

I've seen a lot lately that have me scratching my head. Recently saw one with 11 reviews and a spelling error in the blurb.  - and yet it got chosen over others. I have a feeling it's "who you know" that matters and not what you're promoting (like anything in life).

Was that an international one?

[LilyBLily]

I certainly do not know anyone at BookBub, nor am I connected otherwise. I don't think "knowing somebody" would move BB's needle at all. My women's fiction titles were well branded but had few reviews, and BB did decline the one with the fewest. That's how I started this thread, talking about having very few reviews likely doomed me to never get a BookBub ad. 

All three BB internationals have increased my reviews/ratings. Mostly with ratings. I'm happy about that.

I routinely check out books BB advertises, and many of them are castigated by reviewers as the worst that author has ever written. However, the author has a name and a following. Or the author has a good cover and the setup of the plot looks plausible for its genre; it's how it plays out that readers dislike. So, yes, there are plenty of not-very-good novels being advertised on BB. But people do buy bad novels as long as they fulfill most of their requirements. Then they complain about what is lacking.   

[Rod Little]

I've seen some blinking awful and ordinary books promoted on BB with barely any reviews and I figure I must have offended someone there at some stage.

I've seen a lot lately that have me scratching my head. Recently saw one with 11 reviews and a spelling error in the blurb.  - and yet it got chosen over others. I have a feeling it's "who you know" that matters and not what you're promoting (like anything in life).

Was that an international one?

I only get the US BB.

[JRTomlin]

I've seen some blinking awful and ordinary books promoted on BB with barely any reviews and I figure I must have offended someone there at some stage.

I've seen a lot lately that have me scratching my head. Recently saw one with 11 reviews and a spelling error in the blurb.  - and yet it got chosen over others. I have a feeling it's "who you know" that matters and not what you're promoting (like anything in life).

I have had about 20 promos with BB and I assure you that it is not that I know someone there, because I don't. I have no connections. The closest I've come to knowing someone there is a signature in a (generally form) email.

[Rod Little]

Their selection process seems quite random. The only two they ever accepted of mine were standalones with few reviews (and nothing to brag about - but, selected anyway!). Meanwhile, I would prefer to promote my 1st in series, but it has always been turned down - despite having 350+ reviews and 1 award + a write-up in USA Today. Rejected, nonetheless. But, give us that standalone with only 29 reviews, thanks.
So ... random it is!  Trying to make sense of it is pointless. They choose what they like, period.

I keep applying with that one series starter twice a year, in any case. You never know.

[idontknowyet]

It seems like once they give you a few bb its easier to get them.

Just like amazon they're goal is to sell books. If you have a person with established great results why not pick them over an unknown that might or might not resonate with their audience. Bird in hand and all that.

[JRTomlin]

I have a feeling that may be the case although I've seen them say that it isn't.

[alhawke]

It seems like once they give you a few bb its easier to get them.

Not true for me as of late, but I keep trying.

[LilyBLily]

I intend to submit the most successful title of my three recent BB internationals for a U.S. 99-cent run circa the holidays. Because that book has more legs than the other two, I think I can make a pretty good case for it with BB. They'll be inundated with submissions around then, but I am going to try.

 

[JRTomlin]

I certainly get them a lot less often than I used to. There was a time when probably I got one out of three submissions. Now it's more like one out of 20, if I'm lucky.

[Crystal]

You're more likely to get accepted if you point to a successful BookBub in the past, especially if it's a similar book or the same series.

If BookBub readers had book one as a BB freebie three months ago, they'll probably be interested in book two for .99 (assuming series of standalones).

BookBub is really not a mystery. Subscribe to the newsletter for a few weeks or months. Watch the categories. A solid 80% of the books in each category will follow very specific criteria. I.e. Contemporary romance books are almost always light and fun, they're generally wide, they have more classy covers. New adult has sexier covers, anything bad boy or vaguely darkish but not dark romance, a higher percent of KU books (but still mostly wide).

Most of the books in a given category look similar. They go together.

If you don't want to package your book so it fits into a BB category, that's fine, but why would BookBub go out of their way to figure out where your book fits?

[lea_owens]

O. M. G. I just got my first BookBub after all those tries over all these years! *HAPPY DANCE* I just had to race in here and share the news because no one else I know would appreciate why I'm this excited.

It's not for my main sellers but for the first in my middle grade/teen series of horse mysteries, The Outback Riders (most readers are older women who like clean horse-themed adventures and mysteries). It's a free promotion in all regions. The series makes $500 to $700 most months (it's only on Amazon)  without any advertising, so fingers crossed BB still has some influence. There are five books in the series and the first is only short, so I might make the second book free at the same time to draw readers into the series.

If I've been hit with a bit of goodluck fairy dust, I'm tossing it towards all of you in the hope the good luck is shared.

[alhawke]

O. M. G. I just got my first BookBub after all those tries over all these years! *HAPPY DANCE* I just had to race in here and share the news because no one else I know would appreciate why I'm this excited.

I do the happy dance with you   
Good luck!

[Jeff Tanyard]

O. M. G. I just got my first BookBub after all those tries over all these years! *HAPPY DANCE* I just had to race in here and share the news because no one else I know would appreciate why I'm this excited.

It's not for my main sellers but for the first in my middle grade/teen series of horse mysteries, The Outback Riders (most readers are older women who like clean horse-themed adventures and mysteries). It's a free promotion in all regions. The series makes $500 to $700 most months (it's only on Amazon)  without any advertising, so fingers crossed BB still has some influence. There are five books in the series and the first is only short, so I might make the second book free at the same time to draw readers into the series.

If I've been hit with a bit of goodluck fairy dust, I'm tossing it towards all of you in the hope the good luck is shared.

 

[JRTomlin]

Congrats. Hope it goes great for you.

[notthatamanda]

Congratulations Lea!

[LilyBLily]

Congratulations, Lea! 

[Pemry Janes]

Congratulations Lea 

[Simon Haynes]

Good stuff! Hope it leads to a boatload of sales.

[LilyBLily]

The heartening aspect of a boatload of sales is the realization that with the right advertising, we actually can sell our books. Some of us need the occasional reminder!
 

[LilyBLily]

A while back, Hidden Gems said it had a newsletter and in celebration of Canada Day an ad in it would be discounted to $7.00. I bought an ad. It hasn't even earned a dollar in sales or reads.

Although everybody and his brother has started a discount newsletter, the reason BookBub still reigns supreme is that, unlike all the others, it delivers. 

[alhawke]

A while back, Hidden Gems said it had a newsletter and in celebration of Canada Day an ad in it would be discounted to $7.00. I bought an ad. It hasn't even earned a dollar in sales or reads.

Was the book romance? They're primarily a romance driven newsletter.

Dollar for sales it's done well for my romance books. Usually 10 sales for a 99c promo. Ten sales for a $10 dollar ad in the past is better dollar-to-sales than a Bookbub ad. We have to factor in the large BB expense when looking at BB success too.

[LilyBLily]

A while back, Hidden Gems said it had a newsletter and in celebration of Canada Day an ad in it would be discounted to $7.00. I bought an ad. It hasn't even earned a dollar in sales or reads.

Was the book romance? They're primarily a romance driven newsletter.

Dollar for sales it's done well for my romance books. Usually 10 sales for a 99c promo. Ten sales for a $10 dollar ad in the past is better dollar-to-sales than a Bookbub ad. We have to factor in the large BB expense when looking at BB success too.

It was a romance but not first in series. I have another HG ad coming up next month that's for a stand-alone romance. My title got decent positioning in this Hidden Gems ad, too. Perhaps I simply can't write a hooky piece of ad copy. Le sigh. 

 

[alhawke]

More likely it's due to the time of year or the decrease effectiveness of promos in general now adays. I like Hidden Gems for affordability but not if they don't produce results. Let us know if you have a good run next month. And best of luck!

[LilyBLily]

I've now been paid for the first and second BookBub ads and that was enough to offset my ad costs for all three ads, both the ad stacks and the BB ads, plus a decent profit. The third set of payments, to come in the next month, will be all profit. Totally different from my experiences with other ad newsletters--including the ones I used in the stacks. They never break even. Perhaps the good results are because of the sheer numbers of subscribers BB has. Apparently, my books sell at too low a percentage to break even elsewhere.

One nice benefit has been the accumulation of something like 70 ratings/reviews on one title and a dozen or so each on the other two. I just did a Hidden Gems review quest and the response was tepid, to say the least. I need Stan Lee to write my ad copy. Or Rory Sutherland (hilarious British ad guy). Bombast or shrewd appeal. Whatever. I know the formula for ad copy but...meh. I'm supposed to be writing some today for the next release and I am struggling, as usual.

[Simon Haynes]

Got an email from Amazon last week asking if I was interested in a Kindle Deal on a different book (first in series) for amazon.co.uk.  I've had these before and they never eventuated, so I just clicked yes and forgot about it.

Well, it got accepted, and that book is a 99p featured deal for the month of July on amazon UK.  I've not had one of these in my 10+ years as an indie author, but to be honest my expectations are low as I've heard from various sources it's not that much of a thing.

Good luck with it.

It's been running for the month (and apparently in Germany as well as Britain.)  Seemed to do okay, and today I got another email from them about a kindle deal for the UK ... on the same book (but next month.)

[Simon Haynes]

A couple of days ago I applied for a BB on my middle-grade series starter.  It was accepted (intl only) last night.

That was the sixth time I've applied with that book since 2018, and it was rejected every time before this one.

A MG bookbub (intl) is only $40, with a very small market, so it's not going to sell up a storm, but the paperback has been doing well over the past 12 months so all visibility will be helpful.

[lea_owens]

Congratulations, Simon! Wishing you success with your BB.

[LilyBLily]

That's great, Simon. You might even make a profit, but regardless, at $40, you're not risking big money. I've occasionally seen newsletter ads for middle-grade books. Do these work t all?

[Simon Haynes]

That's great, Simon. You might even make a profit, but regardless, at $40, you're not risking big money. I've occasionally seen newsletter ads for middle-grade books. Do these work t all?

I tried one newsletter ad for MG about 8 or 9 years ago.  I can't rememember who it was with, but I know it was a disaster.  I've been angling for a BB for the past 2-3 years, but honestly I only apply with the MG novel when I've worn out my welcome with my adult books.

MG ebooks are a waste of time for me. Since I switched to advertising them heavily in paperback they've done a lot better. (over 400 copies in the first half of this year, just over 250 for all of last year, and only 100 for all of 2019.)

Unfortunately, POD pricing doesn't compare with mass produced paperbacks, and if you bring the retail price down to something more-or-less acceptable there's no margin for advertising.

To be honest my ongoing, non-stop efforts with my MG books are really just me being stubborn. But there's this little voice telling me these are really good books to get kids reading scifi, and if the series does hit the spot one day, I'm sure it'll go ballistic.

[LilyBLily]

That's great, Simon. You might even make a profit, but regardless, at $40, you're not risking big money. I've occasionally seen newsletter ads for middle-grade books. Do these work t all?

I tried one newsletter ad for MG about 8 or 9 years ago.  I can't rememember who it was with, but I know it was a disaster.  I've been angling for a BB for the past 2-3 years, but honestly I only apply with the MG novel when I've worn out my welcome with my adult books.

MG ebooks are a waste of time for me. Since I switched to advertising them heavily in paperback they've done a lot better. (over 400 copies in the first half of this year, just over 250 for all of last year, and only 100 for all of 2019.)

Unfortunately, POD pricing doesn't compare with mass produced paperbacks, and if you bring the retail price down to something more-or-less acceptable there's no margin for advertising.

To be honest my ongoing, non-stop efforts with my MG books are really just me being stubborn. But there's this little voice telling me these are really good books to get kids reading scifi, and if the series does hit the spot one day, I'm sure it'll go ballistic.

Sheer stubbornness is what gets us anywhere.

Depending on where your market is for the paperbacks, it might be more profitable to use a job printer and then send Amazon the books to warehouse and mail as sales are made. Your margin could be better and I know some people do that. But it's another learning curve, and job printers by and large in the U.S. are crooks or incompetents (take your pick) who routinely overcharge. Years ago, we literally found the asking price cut in half when we were about to end our relationship with one printer because we could not afford to pay what we had been. They had that much margin built in; that is, they saw we had no way to compare prices and so they plucked a nice fat one out of thin air and gouged us mercilessly until we said we had to end it. Thus, I am not exactly recommending that route, but I have heard it can result in a higher per copy profit. So can hand selling at events, if you don't count the value of your time and all the other associated costs. Been there, done that, too.

Another possibility is a licensing deal with a trad publisher who has distribution clout, such as Scholastic, but again, that's a learning curve, and you are a writer first. Maybe your agent could look around for a publisher to license them?

Anyway, for now, I'm sure the BB will get you some fun results.

[notthatamanda]

Amazon has bought my paperbacks by the case (from Ingram) and when they want to get rid of the last few they mark them down and mark the ebooks down too if they feel like it, and they always feel like it. Just something to be aware of. Good luck with the BB, Simon.

[LilyBLily]

Amazon has bought my paperbacks by the case (from Ingram) and when they want to get rid of the last few they mark them down and mark the ebooks down too if they feel like it, and they always feel like it. Just something to be aware of. Good luck with the BB, Simon.

Good reminder. Ingram may be an easy solution but Amazon sure does dream up ways to turn it into yet another problem.

[alhawke]

MG ebooks are a waste of time for me. Since I switched to advertising them heavily in paperback they've done a lot better. (over 400 copies in the first half of this year, just over 250 for all of last year, and only 100 for all of 2019.)

That's some great paperback sales. Are you using AMS? It's hard to figure out how to market paperbacks successfully. Genre-wise I suppose it makes sense that MG would sell well as a paperback or by library.
Best of luck with your BB!

[alhawke]

Amazon has bought my paperbacks by the case (from Ingram) and when they want to get rid of the last few they mark them down and mark the ebooks down too if they feel like it, and they always feel like it. Just something to be aware of. Good luck with the BB, Simon.

Yep, one of my paperbacks recently fell below $2.99. Then the ebook was price-matched below $2.99.  I had to ratchet up Ingram's price substantially. For future problems, that's the way to do it. Increase the price and market % on Ingram.

The price matching games are enraging. Amazon knows they can do it because they're ... Amazon. I'd like to see this one day go away.

[notthatamanda]

I don't think that would work if Amazon has books in stock. I'm just guessing though.

[Simon Haynes]

That's great, Simon. You might even make a profit, but regardless, at $40, you're not risking big money. I've occasionally seen newsletter ads for middle-grade books. Do these work t all?

I tried one newsletter ad for MG about 8 or 9 years ago.  I can't rememember who it was with, but I know it was a disaster.  I've been angling for a BB for the past 2-3 years, but honestly I only apply with the MG novel when I've worn out my welcome with my adult books.

MG ebooks are a waste of time for me. Since I switched to advertising them heavily in paperback they've done a lot better. (over 400 copies in the first half of this year, just over 250 for all of last year, and only 100 for all of 2019.)

Unfortunately, POD pricing doesn't compare with mass produced paperbacks, and if you bring the retail price down to something more-or-less acceptable there's no margin for advertising.

To be honest my ongoing, non-stop efforts with my MG books are really just me being stubborn. But there's this little voice telling me these are really good books to get kids reading scifi, and if the series does hit the spot one day, I'm sure it'll go ballistic.

Sheer stubbornness is what gets us anywhere.

Depending on where your market is for the paperbacks, it might be more profitable to use a job printer and then send Amazon the books to warehouse and mail as sales are made. Your margin could be better and I know some people do that. But it's another learning curve, and job printers by and large in the U.S. are crooks or incompetents (take your pick) who routinely overcharge. Years ago, we literally found the asking price cut in half when we were about to end our relationship with one printer because we could not afford to pay what we had been. They had that much margin built in; that is, they saw we had no way to compare prices and so they plucked a nice fat one out of thin air and gouged us mercilessly until we said we had to end it. Thus, I am not exactly recommending that route, but I have heard it can result in a higher per copy profit. So can hand selling at events, if you don't count the value of your time and all the other associated costs. Been there, done that, too.

Another possibility is a licensing deal with a trad publisher who has distribution clout, such as Scholastic, but again, that's a learning curve, and you are a writer first. Maybe your agent could look around for a publisher to license them?

Anyway, for now, I'm sure the BB will get you some fun results.

Back in 2012 I sent the first three chapters of the MG novel to 3 major publishers, and promised myself I'd wait 3 months for a reply. (Two got back to me, one didn't.)  I was trad-pubbed back then, which carried some clout.

So I launched a self-pubbed edition and went back to my adult novels ... then got an email from the third publisher saying they were interested, and asked to see the full manuscript. I explained it was too late, and that was that. (I had waited longer than their advertised response time.)

I've always said that self-pubbed MG is a really hard road to take - mainly because your audience doesn't buy their own books, and parents and grandparents tend to buy whatever has buzz around it.

[Simon Haynes]

MG ebooks are a waste of time for me. Since I switched to advertising them heavily in paperback they've done a lot better. (over 400 copies in the first half of this year, just over 250 for all of last year, and only 100 for all of 2019.)

That's some great paperback sales. Are you using AMS? It's hard to figure out how to market paperbacks successfully. Genre-wise I suppose it makes sense that MG would sell well as a paperback or by library.
Best of luck with your BB!

Yes, all through KDP Print and using AMS ads.

I think the pandemic might have had something to do with it - people turned to online ordering for kids books/gifts, and once they're on Amazon the playing field is far more level when compared to the shelves of books at a school book fair (one big-name publisher only), or local bookstores (trad pubbed only, bigger names with stacks of books, lesser lights with one copy.)


I had an agent from around 2008-2012, then we parted ways when I went indie & started to write MG. (I took them on specifically to break into the UK market, not to handle my affairs in Australia. Sadly, the UK publishers didn't bite - they regard Australia as a vital chunk of their sales, around 30% I believe, and I was already published here.)

[JRTomlin]

Today is my BB promo. At 11 AM Pacific, I show about 11,000 downloads on Amazon and Kobo combined, but I don't have a report from Apple, B&N, or Google. And Amazon reports are totally wonky for me at the moment, so I can't tell if that is accurate or not. The sales and revenue reports do not match up at all. IF the number of sales is correct then I've sold a hundred copies of the rest of the series so far today. But no clue for the other retailers. Usually, I do well on Apple with BB promos so I'm keeping my fingers crossed.

That isn't a terrible number this early in the day so... we'll see.

I am not greatly impressed with their blurb for the novel which is unusual. It isn't bad just a bit blah. 🤷‍♀️

[LilyBLily]

Today is my BB promo. At 11 AM Pacific, I show about 11,000 downloads on Amazon and Kobo combined, but I don't have a report from Apple, B&N, or Google. And Amazon reports are totally wonky for me at the moment, so I can't tell if that is accurate or not. The sales and revenue reports do not match up at all. IF the number of sales is correct then I've sold a hundred copies of the rest of the series so far today. But no clue for the other retailers. Usually, I do well on Apple with BB promos so I'm keeping my fingers crossed.

That isn't a terrible number this early in the day so... we'll see.

I am not greatly impressed with their blurb for the novel which is unusual. It isn't bad just a bit blah. 🤷‍♀️

I liked the blurb. It was slanted toward enticing people who do not ordinarily read your subgenre. The cover is great to convey the subgenre, too. Crossed fingers it will do well for you. (I did not "buy" it because I don't want to wreck your also boughts.)

[JRTomlin]

You could be right about the blurb. Heaven knows they are experts.

ETA: After thinking about it, I think I may disagree with your point that it is good for the blurb to appeal to people who don't read the genre. If you look at the sales of say Bernard Cornwell or other top names in medieval HF, there are plenty of fans, and as you pointed out, when people who don't read the genre download the book (and almost certainly never buy the others in the series) all they really do is mess up the Also Bought list.

Fortunately, I don't think their blurb will turn off fans of the subgenre, so hopefully it will all work out.

#2 in the Kindle free store for what it's worth.

[JRTomlin]

Update: 18,300 downloads on Amazon, 3600 total at Kobo, Apple, and B&N. I haven't bothered to check Google yet. The largest number of 'others' was at Kobo surprisingly since they are usually beat by Apple. So That is about 21,900 total. It looks on track for the 25,000 that BB says is the average for free Historical Fiction. 👍


Sales of the series have paid for the promo and about $100 profit, so not bad. I have a couple of ads on smaller lists tomorrow to support it. The promotion runs through Saturday. I'll update further when it ends.

It is now at #3 in the Kindle Free list & #1 in free HF. So I am pretty happy with how this has gone, needless to say.

[LilyBLily]

Great results! 

[alhawke]

Congrats!   

[Pemry Janes]

Those are some very impressive results.

[JRTomlin]

Thanks!

It is now up to 25,000 downloads on all retailers. I have a couple of ads with smaller lists today so any past this will not necessarily be BB. At this point, the three other novels in the series have about $150 in sales over the cost of the promotion and sales on my other novels are up. So I definitely count this one as a success. 

[LilyBLily]

Now that Amazon has coughed up the dough for June sales, here's my final tally on those three BookBubs I had earlier this year. Net of $773 in ad costs, and bearing in mind that the third one somehow never went out to B&N fans, my profit was circa $900, or $300 per international BB. In my opinion, these ads were worth doing because: (1) They demonstrated which of my titles has the most appeal, (2) were profitable, (3) had a small tail, and (4) resulted in dozens of new ratings/reviews.

Good luck to all trying for BookBub ads or running them this month.



 

[JRTomlin]

Colour me gobsmacked. I just got another BB, this time US only. 

[LilyBLily]

Colour me gobsmacked. I just got another BB, this time US only. 

Woo-hoo! 

[JRTomlin]

Then the way things usually go I'll spend a year trying to get another one. I do find that stacking a number of smaller newsletters works well so it doesn't have to be completely feast or famine.

[notthatamanda]

Colour me gobsmacked. I just got another BB, this time US only. 

Good luck.

Did their prices go up again? I looked at Psychological Fiction and it was 900+. I don't remember it being that high.

[JRTomlin]

Historical Fiction has stayed the same for quite a while as well as I can remember, $760 US+int'l. They may have raised other genres though. HF is actually one of their more expensive genres and always has been, which would surprise a lot of people. Crossing my fingers that they don't decide to raise it even higher.

[Eric Thomson]

They raised the Scifi prices. Just went to submit my latest rejection and found they'd jacked it up by $21.

[JRTomlin]

I had to laugh. I was so sure they would turn this one down that I had already set up a small promotion with some other lists for a different novel, so now I'll run both this month. I don't usually do more than one promotion in a month. It does mean there aren't many to stack with the BB one.

[LilyBLily]

I had to laugh. I was so sure they would turn this one down that I had already set up a small promotion with some other lists for a different novel, so now I'll run both this month. I don't usually do more than one promotion in a month. It does mean there aren't many to stack with the BB one.

Is the timing wrong? Could you switch the title for the previously arranged promo? Sometimes they can accommodate you. In fact, given some of the communications I've received from promotion groups, there must be a lot of fancy dancing with what book is placed on what date.

[JRTomlin]

The timing is shorter than usual for BB. I wonder if they might have had a cancellation. But they probably could. They've always been cooperative about making changes, but rather than deal with it, I think I'll just go with it as is. There are two or three small lists I can still line up to stack with the BB.

[alhawke]

Got a Bookbub today!  It's intl for a witch book which is quite appropriate this upcoming month.
For those of you like me who've suffered with rejections, this is after 16 rejections since my last one a year ago. Never give up.

[Jeff Tanyard]

Congratulations, A.L.!   

[LilyBLily]

Woo-hoo!

[ashleycapes]

Nice

[notthatamanda]

Good luck.

[Gerri Attrick]

Nice one. Good luck!

[Pemry Janes]

Got a Bookbub today!  It's intl for a witch book which is quite appropriate this upcoming month.
For those of you like me who've suffered with rejections, this is after 16 rejections since my last one a year ago. Never give up.

Very nice, good luck!

[notthatamanda]

I applied for Int'l only for book 1, permafree of my contemporary romance trilogy and got it. No idea what to expect but I'll post the results when it happens, only 105 bucks.

[alhawke]

I applied for Int'l only for book 1, permafree of my contemporary romance trilogy and got it. No idea what to expect but I'll post the results when it happens, only 105 bucks.

Awesome. Good luck! 

[notthatamanda]

Thank you. I've only ever had 2 book bubs, both Int'l, one good one not. I'm cautiously optimitic.

[Pemry Janes]

I applied for Int'l only for book 1, permafree of my contemporary romance trilogy and got it. No idea what to expect but I'll post the results when it happens, only 105 bucks.

Congratulations.

[Jeff Tanyard]

Am I the only one who thinks this thread title has become something of a misnomer?  ;)

Seriously, though, congratulations to Amanda and everyone else for sharing their Bookbub success stories.  I wish those with upcoming promotions the best of luck. 

And to those who apply but have yet to be accepted, keep applying!  You never know when they'll have an opening that your book would suit to a T.

[Eric Thomson]

Am I the only one who thinks this thread title has become something of a misnomer?  ;)

Seriously, though, congratulations to Amanda and everyone else for sharing their Bookbub success stories.  I wish those with upcoming promotions the best of luck. 

And to those who apply but have yet to be accepted, keep applying!  You never know when they'll have an opening that your book would suit to a T.

Meh... Got my 72nd rejection since Feb 2020 yesterday. Haven't snagged a BB in over a year and a half

[alhawke]

Am I the only one who thinks this thread title has become something of a misnomer?  ;)

Seriously, though, congratulations to Amanda and everyone else for sharing their Bookbub success stories.  I wish those with upcoming promotions the best of luck. 

And to those who apply but have yet to be accepted, keep applying!  You never know when they'll have an opening that your book would suit to a T.

Meh... Got my 72nd rejection since Feb 2020 yesterday. Haven't snagged a BB in over a year and a half

There's definitely a lot of pain in the applications process. Hopefully posting an occasional win helps spur us on.
72nd ... ugh ... "Never give up. Never surrender."

[LilyBLily]

It occurs to me that BookBub is replicating for us the exact process we have deliberately avoided by not seeking to be traditionally published: rejection after rejection after rejection.

Kind of funny.

Perseverance is a valuable trait in a writer. Also a thick skin. We're all winners because we keep trying.

[JRTomlin]

Being turned down for a promotion isn't quite the same as being rejected for publication. I simply run my promotion somewhere else. And some months I simply choose to do my promotion somewhere that is cheaper. Fortunately, unlike publishers used to, BB does not have complete control of the entire industry. 👍

[idontknowyet]

Odd question?

Has anyone ever heard of an author that's made it big and not had a bookbub?

I'm not talking midlister. I'm talking a big name.

[notthatamanda]

Intl. Bookbub just went out a few hours ago and I have Amazon - 1000+ downloads and 8 sales of books 2 and 3 combined, conahura, knock wood. I won't bore you guys with updates every hour, but that's pretty much all I'm going to be doing the rest of the day.

[idontknowyet]

Intl. Bookbub just went out a few hours ago and I have Amazon - 1000+ downloads and 8 sales of books 2 and 3 combined, conahura, knock wood. I won't bore you guys with updates every hour, but that's pretty much all I'm going to be doing the rest of the day.

i love updates. real experiences with promos are informative.

[alhawke]

Intl. Bookbub just went out a few hours ago and I have Amazon - 1000+ downloads and 8 sales of books 2 and 3 combined, conahura, knock wood. I won't bore you guys with updates every hour, but that's pretty much all I'm going to be doing the rest of the day.

Good luck, notthatamanda!

My international 99c is ending today. All stores back to regular price except Amazon (I try to stop price matching). Got >600 sales and that paid for the promotion in 2 days. Ranked in the top 100 in the whole store in UK, CA (23), and Australia. This is the first time a promotion has paid for itself. 
BB is still king. We'll see if I get any tail as the days go by. Needless to say, I am quite stoked (its that word even used anymore?).

[JRTomlin]

Sounds like a great start! Good luck.

[notthatamanda]

Okay I lied. 10 paid books. It does amaze me that people buy books 2 and 3 before reading book 1 but thank you each and everyone one of you.

Canada Amazon Rankings;
Best Sellers Rank: #6 Free in Kindle Store (See Top 100 in Kindle Store)
#1 in Contemporary Women's Fiction
#2 in Contemporary Romance (Kindle Store)
#2 in Contemporary Romance (Books)

UK:
Best Sellers Rank: #12 Free in Kindle Store (See Top 100 in Kindle Store)
2 in Women's Romance Fiction
2 in Women's Contemporary Fiction
5 in Contemporary Romance (Kindle Store)

[LilyBLily]

Woo-hoo! 

[LilyBLily]

Since we've revived this hoary old thread, I should add that, prior to the international BBs I had this spring, I couldn't get arrested on Kobo. No sales, like, ever. I think it took four years to get my first little payment from Kobo. Now I've been getting small but steady money. A tail, by gum.

[JRTomlin]

You have to love people who do that! 😜

[notthatamanda]

I've got over 700 downloads on Kobo today. Like you Lily, couldn't get arrested over there.
Thank you all for the good wishes.

[JRTomlin]

You do get some action over at Kobo with BB and that's the only way I ever have. I don't know what you'd have to do to get regular sales.

[LilyBLily]

You do get some action over at Kobo with BB and that's the only way I ever have. I don't know what you'd have to do to get regular sales.

The usual: Goat sacrifices. 

[JRTomlin]

I ran out of white goats for sacrifices. Looks like I need to stock up.

[notthatamanda]

Still dark here update:

Amazon :2700 free, 19 paid, $44
Kobo: 1035 free, 2 paid, $5.24
D2D: none
Google: nothing or can't tell yet

Promo cost $105.
Hopefully the readthrough pays off the rest of the promo.

Amazon ranks in CA are still all top 5. UK top ten.  Aus, India top 20 free, so hopefully that visibility will make for another decent day.

[notthatamanda]

It looks like I made back the price of the Bookbub ($105) plus two lattes, (conahura, knock wood) that's with D2D and Google not reporting for yesterday yet.

Downloads for Amazon so far - 3238 (which includes 47 for the US, surprisingly)
Kobo - 1176
Google - 222
D2D (all apple) - 707

I'm interested to see how the tail holds in the international markets since I got really good rankings in free and the sub categories. Should be good visibility - conahura knock wood, again.

[Jeff Tanyard]

It looks like I made back the price of the Bookbub ($105) plus two lattes, (conahura, knock wood) that's with D2D and Google not reporting for yesterday yet.

Downloads for Amazon so far - 3238 (which includes 47 for the US, surprisingly)
Kobo - 1176
Google - 222
D2D (all apple) - 707

I'm interested to see how the tail holds in the international markets since I got really good rankings in free and the sub categories. Should be good visibility - conahura knock wood, again.

 

 

[notthatamanda]

Thanks Jeff.

I've made back the cost of the promo on Amazon alone (conahura, knock wood) the rest is lattes for everyone!

[JRTomlin]

Always great news to have even a small profit and hopefully some tail. My last one had a tail that is still tapering off, so good luck on that part! 👍

[Gerri Attrick]

Congrats! Hope you get good sell-through on the rest of the books.

 

[notthatamanda]

Thanks Gerri!

Jeff - when was your last Bookbub?

[Jeff Tanyard]

Thanks Gerri!

Jeff - when was your last Bookbub?

I had two in 2019--a free one for Clouds of Venus and a 99-cent one for Hostile Planet--but I stopped applying soon after.  Diminishing returns are a thing, and I wanted to save the next ones for when I had audio versions available.  Then the whole Audible returns scandal happened, and I held off on audio until things got sorted out.  Then 2020 happened and I had bigger fish to fry in my personal life, and, well...     I'm still not sure how I want to go about doing audio, so Bookbub applications are on hold for now.

[Crystal]

Odd question?

Has anyone ever heard of an author that's made it big and not had a bookbub?

I'm not talking midlister. I'm talking a big name.

I'm not aware of any, but I'm not sure what your intent is with this question.

BookBubs aren't a big deal anymore. Lots of authors get them. Lots of authors get rejected for them. Big authors also get rejected by BookBub, but they keep applying until they get a BookBub.

I've had 5-10 rejections in a row and I've had 4-5 acceptances in a row too. It depends on the books and whether or not BookBub is favorable to KU books at the time I apply (sometimes they are, sometimes not).

[JRTomlin]

For a while, Bookbub seemed to have decided that no one wanted to read medieval historical fiction so getting a BB in that subgenre was very iffy. Now they seem to have changed their minds. They judge their market and what their customers want and we may or may not agree, but eventually, markets and their judgments change. Or that's my experience anyway. 🤷‍♀️

[Eric Thomson]

Haven't snagged a BBFD since February 2020 even though I've been applying, and quite frankly, it hasn't mattered. My business is motoring along quite well on its own, so I no longer bother. At 3-4 releases a year, my mailing list, social media and other internet presence, the sales and cash flow are such that I don't really need BB.

[LilyBLily]

Looking at my stats for the year so far, I note that Amazon US has not been affected long-term by the three international BB ads I had, but Amazon in other countries has been, and all the other major sales venues were.

Meanwhile, the monthly KU countdowns coupled with lower tier newsletter ads I've run this year have had pathetic returns. For the first time, I'm actually considering pulling all my remaining books out of KU. 

Aiming for a BB ad makes sense for me while I remain in limbo regarding other, more continuous ads, but I'm going to wait a little until I try again.   

[notthatamanda]

Lily - have you ever tried a B&N bookbub ad? That was the only one I could ever get sales on with bookbub, only with my historical fiction. I've got a real Bookbub high going here so I may try that again, especially since my WW2 book has a sequel now.

[JRTomlin]

Bookbub ads take a lot of work figuring out what graphic works and the right targeting. It generally takes some test ads the cost of which can add up, but if you can get a solid list of targets they can be effective.

[R. C.]

Bookbub ads take a lot of work figuring out what graphic works and the right targeting. It generally takes some test ads the cost of which can add up, but if you can get a solid list of targets they can be effective.

 

R.C.

[notthatamanda]

I've applied for a US only book deal on my permafree that I had the Int'l only on. I made enough on the Int'l only to cover the cost of the US too. Hope they don't give me a date on US Thanksgiving weekend.

[LilyBLily]

Good luck!

As for me, my BB click ads have not been successful and the advice given is contradictory. Choose five or fewer authors, for instance, versus choose a lot. And so on.

There's a BB click ad I've seen over and over again with a hot guy and good copy, but as much as I enjoy looking at him day in and day out, I've already checked on the book and know it's not for me. So just hurling a huge amount of money at repetitive click ads seems a bit pointless to me.

It's an irony of the self-publishing paradigm that our ads run whether they make money or not. Years ago, an old pro at the ad business told me if I saw an ad in a magazine run more than once, they were making money. We indies simply throw money at ads and mostly we don't make money and we ascribe the ads' failures to our own personal inability to do ads right.

[notthatamanda]

Thank you.

I used to get the same ad over and over for a book about the benefits of tumeric. I never clicked on it.

I pretty much use one author per ad on bookbub. It gets me into the good range they recommend. I did manage to sell some of my WW2 book on B&N with that strategy. I'm trying it again, but I'm bidding really low (10-20 cents) so my impressions are barely anything so my data right now is kind of useless.

[JRTomlin]

Good luck!

As for me, my BB click ads have not been successful and the advice given is contradictory. Choose five or fewer authors, for instance, versus choose a lot. And so on.

There's a BB click ad I've seen over and over again with a hot guy and good copy, but as much as I enjoy looking at him day in and day out, I've already checked on the book and know it's not for me. So just hurling a huge amount of money at repetitive click ads seems a bit pointless to me.

It's an irony of the self-publishing paradigm that our ads run whether they make money or not. Years ago, an old pro at the ad business told me if I saw an ad in a magazine run more than once, they were making money. We indies simply throw money at ads and mostly we don't make money and we ascribe the ads' failures to our own personal inability to do ads right.

To give you some more contradictory advice, the number of authors you choose has a lot less to do with a successful ad campaign than that they are the right authors. Do they have enough BB followers and do they have the same target audience as you matter a lot more. Even with those, you have to go through and cull the ones that won't still click on your ads. Bernard Cornwell and I should have the same target audience but his followers won't touch my ads, so I don't target them. After a lot of experimenting, I have a list of eight authors whose followers I can count on giving me a CTR of better than 2%. But finding them and figuring out what kind of ad works for my target took months of work. And I still limit my spend because even with low bidding, my ROI with ads (as opposed to promotions) is not that great.

Normally BB makes sure that the same ad is not shown to the same subscriber more than five times. The only way that could be happening is if the author cancels the ad and then does a new one, which really is a waste of money if you are running the same ad with the same target authors.

What works for me in my genre as far as the appearance of the ad itself may be very different than what works in some others, but there again I did a lot of experimenting, trying out different styles of ads to find out what worked with my target audience. Frankly I don't think they look that great, but my targets click on them and that's what counts.

[JRTomlin]

On a related subject, I recall when Bookbub first started doing their 'New Release for Less' promotions which are within a month of a novel's release that I read some feedback that the results were very disappointing. I've never tried one for that reason, but I wondered if anyone has tried one more recently? The price is eyewatering, even higher than their regular promotions so I'm not in a huge hurry to try one unless I hear that they are doing well these days.

[notthatamanda]

Two weeks out from my Int'l bookbub. Things have slowed down considerably.

Amazon - 4000+ downloads, about a 2% read through so far, still getting double digit downloads on the permafree daily.
Kobo - 1400+ downloads about a 1.5% read through so far, downloads down considerably more than Amazon
D2D - pretty much all apple - almost 2000 downloads, read through 4.6%, downloads down a lot.
I've made $68 bucks on google. Too lazy to figure out how many downloads that was with their reports.

I've sold at least one copy of all but one of my other books. It was a profitable promo. They turned me down for a US on the same book. I applied for an Int'l on the permafree on my other trilogy.

[idontknowyet]

On a related subject, I recall when Bookbub first started doing their 'New Release for Less' promotions which are within a month of a novel's release that I read some feedback that the results were very disappointing. I've never tried one for that reason, but I wondered if anyone has tried one more recently? The price is eyewatering, even higher than their regular promotions so I'm not in a huge hurry to try one unless I hear that they are doing well these days.

I have heard they are effective only if you discount your book (.99cents or less). otherwise a complete waste of money

[JRTomlin]

Ugh. I consider $2.99 to be a discount. I could do that but have some doubts if it would be worthwhile in the 4th in a series.

*ponder ponder ponder*

On the other hand... I may give it a try when I release The Douglas Bastard next year.

[notthatamanda]

Maybe you'd be better off trying to time a Bookbub for Book 1 in the month before the new book in the series is released.

[notthatamanda]

I got an Int'l bub for my other trilogy, first book. New Adult Romance so only $59. It's on Nov. 22, Thanksgiving week, which shouldn't matter for Int'l, but I have jury duty that day and I have to cook and my college classes gave us a full workload for the week cause we can just do our assignments on Mon-Wed and then have our Thanksgiving????

So I am happy about the bub but I'm also looking at that week and going holy crap I'm in trouble. No jury duty, please, please please. I'll find out Friday if they need me.

[LilyBLily]

Congratulations! International should be fine.

 

[notthatamanda]

Well I am all set for my international bookbub tomorrow. I do have jury duty so I won't be watching the results.

[alhawke]

Good luck!

[Lynn]

Well I am all set for my international bookbub tomorrow. I do have jury duty so I won't be watching the results.

Good luck! I really don't mind jury duty, except I really hate it :D Mixed feelings, LOL. I hope you get out quickly.

[Marti Talbott]

I signed up for BB to send me emails in three specific genre and noticed something I didn't think was happening. Looks like most of the books are "not" free but range in price from $.99 to $1.99 and some are above.

I thought the higher priced books didn't sell well. They cost a fortune. What am I missing?

Also, is it an indication that most authors are having trouble selling their books?

[LilyBLily]

Exciting! Good luck.

When I lived in NYC, I got called for jury duty numerous times. It was a very discouraging experience; I totally sympathize with Judge Judy's dyspeptic attitude. The attorneys were just as bad as the clients.

[LilyBLily]

I signed up for BB to send me emails in three specific genre and noticed something I didn't think was happening. Looks like most of the books are "not" free but range in price from $.99 to $1.99 and some are above.

I thought the higher priced books didn't sell well. They cost a fortune. What am I missing?

Also, is it an indication that most authors are having trouble selling their books?

Aren't most of the higher priced books advertised on BB trad pub backlist? It could be reissues of very old books or bargains on newer ones, but the principle is the same: built-in author name recognition sells the book and the cost of the ad is small by its standards and it gets results. BB ads are very targeted by comparison with many other classic book ad venues.

Don't know about others advertising at that price point. It's considered the kiss of death for an indie.

[alhawke]

Aren't most of the higher priced books advertised on BB trad pub backlist?

This is what I see. A big selling author like Stephen King or Stephanie Meyer's $1.99 is our $.99. I've heard Indies that try >$0.99 don't typically fare well (but there is always inflation ... eventually).

[notthatamanda]

I am home and able to monitor int'l bookbub results.

500+ on Amazon
150+ on Amazon

Will post full days results tomorrow, I have a lot of cooking to do now.

[notthatamanda]

Yesterday -
Amazon - 1104
Kobo - 381
Apple - 227

New Adult Romance roughly half on Amazon versus Contemporary, 1/3 for Kobo and Apple. No buys on book 2 yet anywhere.

[JRTomlin]

Much to my shock I got a Featured Deal (US & Int'l) for January 5. I honestly thought there wasn't a chance since IMO right after Christmas & New Years is when everyone wants one. Crossing my fingers that my various promotions do well because my bank account is currently crying bitter tears.

[Gerri Attrick]

Yay! They obviously like you, Jeannie. Good luck at filling those new Christmas Kindles!

[LilyBLily]

Congratulations!!!

[JRTomlin]

Yay! They obviously like you, Jeannie. Good luck at filling those new Christmas Kindles!

Thanks. I had already ordered what I thought would be my Christmas / New Years' advertising so I had to dig behind the sofa cushions to pay for it. 

I do pretty well getting promos from them, but if you only knew how many promotions of mine they turn down... 🤦‍♀️

[notthatamanda]

Good luck!

[alhawke]

  Congrats & good luck!

[Pemry Janes]

Congratulations and good luck.

[Marti Talbott]

Yay! They obviously like you, Jeannie. Good luck at filling those new Christmas Kindles!

Thanks. I had already ordered what I thought would be my Christmas / New Years' advertising so I had to dig behind the sofa cushions to pay for it. 

I do pretty well getting promos from them, but if you only knew how many promotions of mine they turn down... 🤦‍♀️

I'm happy for you. Sales for me are tanked too, so I'd probably have to sell the sofa.

[JRTomlin]

Sorry to hear that, Marti. With all that is going on in the world, I turn blue from holding my breath.

[Marti Talbott]

Sorry to hear that, Marti. With all that is going on in the world, I turn blue from holding my breath.

I know, it's scary times. Our air-conditioner/heater went out in July and the parts needed are stuck in the supply chain. No ETA. So, we're heating a three bedroom house with two space heaters. Actually, all the door are closed and we're only heating two room. Temperature here today is 28 degrees. This is not fun.

At least we're not in the disaster in Kentucky. My heart aches for those poor people. Makes me grateful for what we do have.

[notthatamanda]

Oh boy Marti, stay warm.

[LilyBLily]

No heat? I'm so sorry to hear that; I can barely do my life if I'm cold.

We thought we were deprived because it took three months to replace our oven (we use the oven almost daily). It took a couple of months to replace a bank of windows, and so far no one at Lowe's has found the screens. I just hope they will before April--when I might want to, you know, actually open one of these windows.

It's strange to experience shortages even if they're not terribly important. Our local big grocery has no plastic bags for fruits and vegetables this week and first used up its stock of corn bags (yellowish and much bigger) and now has switched to plastic grocery sacks. Paper goods have been randomly rationed or just not on the shelf, period.

The lack of employees to unload the ships and drive the trucks isn't just "people don't want to work." It's more like "people don't want to work under these conditions, so unless employers stop treating them like disposables, people are not going to take these lousy jobs." (Yet the ship bottleneck thing is rather odd, since I believe dockworkers are well unionized and the Teamsters also have a powerful union. So why are there so few people doing these jobs right now? Are employers simply digging in their heels and refusing to make any changes? I see ads for retail jobs at $15 and even $20 an hour.) 

[notthatamanda]

I heard a report on the LA/Long Beach port bottleneck that was pretty interesting. First of all they said that the volume was going to reach these levels was predicted 10 years ago, but nothing was done to prepare for it. Second of all they have a huge problem with empty containers clogging the ports. They can't unload because there is no where to put more containers.

We were out of toilet paper at BJs here for a couple of months again. Tissues come and go but I can get cases of the boxes hotels buy from Walmart pretty easily.

[LilyBLily]

I've just submitted my most successful title from the spring's little series of International Only featured deals I got with BB. Fingers crossed BookBub goes for the big one this time. I'll be happy to get anything, of course. Crumbs from the big table.

[RiverRun]

Marti, we use these at our house. Granted we live where its warm, but we like them much better than space heaters.  (Our heater quit a few years ago and we lacked the impetus to fix it.) Slower to heat up but once they are going they are more effective.

https://www.walmart.com/ip/Oil-Heater-1500W-Electric-Heating-Machine-with-4-Wheels-3-Heating-Modes-Radiator-Heater-for-Home-US-Plug/215789659

Home Depot sells similar items I think. Its just an electric oil-filled radiator.

[notthatamanda]

We've used the oil filled heaters too when the furnace was out. I'm in New England. They definitely work well and less of a fire hazard than the old style. March 2020 the furnace was out and we stuck one of those in the upstairs hallway and it did the job for all the bedrooms.

[Lynn]

I supplement my heat pump with one of those. One person in a large house is a waste of a heat pump in the winter. It keeps my main room area toasty, while the rest of the house is at a lower temperature. My thermostat in is the main room and it thinks its done its job.

[LilyBLily]

Four hours after I submitted for a BookBub featured deal, I got an International Only deal on...wait for it...December 31st!!!

How can anyone be so l*u*c*k*y???   

I don't know whether to laugh or cry, but I took the deal. Now my question is should I bother to spend additional dollars on surrounding ads that never earn out? It's been the wisdom for several years now, but the margin on these BB international deals is pretty slim.

Anyway, I'm in the game again. We'll see what happens.

[alhawke]

You never know. If it's one thing BookBub can do, it's defy odds. You might not get as many sales, but you may still fare well. I hope you do. Good luck!

[notthatamanda]

Four hours after I submitted for a BookBub featured deal, I got an International Only deal on...wait for it...December 31st!!!

How can anyone be so l*u*c*k*y???   

I don't know whether to laugh or cry, but I took the deal. Now my question is should I bother to spend additional dollars on surrounding ads that never earn out? It's been the wisdom for several years now, but the margin on these BB international deals is pretty slim.

Anyway, I'm in the game again. We'll see what happens.

Are you in KDP or wide? You could do the other deals for Jan 2 and 3rd if you are so inclined if the book is free for 5 days.

[LilyBLily]

This is a wide single-title women's fiction novel at 99 cents that usually sells for $6.99. People know they're getting a deal at that discount.

Good idea about doing ads after New Year's Day. BB says they can't do a link to B&N since it technically does not sell overseas, so I do have to push some ads through that will catch those customers. Maybe B&N has some deals available. I'll have to check. I have a lot to do now to get ready for the big excitement. Not as big a deal as I'd hoped, yet their standard language says I can submit the same title for a U.S. featured deal in 30 days. Has anyone actually done that and gotten the deal and made bank?

[notthatamanda]

I've submitted after my good int'l for the US deal and they never picked me.
Good luck. I guess you have a reason to stay up till midnight on the 31st, checking the numbers.

[alhawke]

I've submitted after my good int'l for the US deal and they never picked me.

Me too. I've never gotten picked the following month.

I have an international BookBub deal coming up this month as well. I added promos for US around the BookBub. In fact, I've never done this before, but I actually planned some promos on the same day as the BB. I have Many Books and BookBarbarian running with the BB, with a few other lesser players going on a couple days after. ENT declined me this time. My promo is for a series push.

I had another international a few months ago and I didn't do this. Of course, B&N suffered, as did the US market in general.

[JRTomlin]

This is a wide single-title women's fiction novel at 99 cents that usually sells for $6.99. People know they're getting a deal at that discount.

Good idea about doing ads after New Year's Day. BB says they can't do a link to B&N since it technically does not sell overseas, so I do have to push some ads through that will catch those customers. Maybe B&N has some deals available. I'll have to check. I have a lot to do now to get ready for the big excitement. Not as big a deal as I'd hoped, yet their standard language says I can submit the same title for a U.S. featured deal in 30 days. Has anyone actually done that and gotten the deal and made bank?

I did once.

[LilyBLily]

B&N finally replied that they will do one of their secret discount features for my book--you know, the kind that Amazon can't see. I also bought an ad on another newsletter, and I'm planning to send out one of my own newsletters. Not enough? I looked hard at the surrounding ads I'd used for the BBs I had earlier this year and picked the one I think caused B&N sales to happen.

Now I have to remember to get Amazon to reduce the price and keep it reduced, since there's no easy way to do a timed promo there unless the book is in KU (which it is not).

[alhawke]

B&N finally replied that they will do one of their secret discount features for my book--you know, the kind that Amazon can't see.

I've never thought they were willing to do that. Thanks for letting us know. And, best of luck with your BookBub!

[LilyBLily]

B&N has some feature they call "101 Nook Books under 2.99," which of course has bestsellers on the first pages but may produce some sales if people click on the categories. 

[LilyBLily]

To be on the safe side, on Monday I lowered the price at Amazon on my book that will be featured on BB on Friday. I should have done it on Sunday, since my first ads kick in on Wednesday and Amazon says it could take up to 72 hours to effect the change, that is, until Thursday. Monday felt like way too early, but dealing with Amazon is always a question mark.

However, Amazon changed the price in a few hours, and now I have a couple of sales at 99 cents that could have been at $6.99 if Amazon's systems weren't so unfriendly.

I don't know whether to be happy or sad. 

[alhawke]

I always lower my books a week before a BookBub. Of course, it always changes within one to two hours, but I've heard too many horror stories from other writers. I still can't understand why AI can't be more reliable. If we set a price, change the price. Right?

[JRTomlin]

I figure even if a lose a little money on sales that way, I will usually still make a profit on sell-through on the series so it's worth it to save the worry. I did mine for Jan. 5 already. With the holidays, I wasn't taking any chances.

[Jeff Tanyard]

To be on the safe side, on Monday I lowered the price at Amazon on my book that will be featured on BB on Friday. I should have done it on Sunday, since my first ads kick in on Wednesday and Amazon says it could take up to 72 hours to effect the change, that is, until Thursday. Monday felt like way too early, but dealing with Amazon is always a question mark.

However, Amazon changed the price in a few hours, and now I have a couple of sales at 99 cents that could have been at $6.99 if Amazon's systems weren't so unfriendly.

I don't know whether to be happy or sad. 

A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.

You absolutely did the right thing, in my opinion.  A Bookbub isn't something you want to screw around with.

[LilyBLily]

Very rough numbers for my New Year's Eve international BB are in, and I'm in the black by about $100 so far. Fine with me.

[JRTomlin]

I have a BB promo on the 5th as I had already mentioned, but I did not stack as I usually do because instead, I spread my advertising out across my catalog. It will be interesting to see how big a difference not stacking makes.

I am also still experimenting with Written Word Media's new Facebook ad service. I used it for the release of my new novel (which did well, by the way) but I was advertising so widely that I couldn't really tell how much to credit to that. This time I am using it on one novel that I am not advertising elsewhere to try to get a better idea of whether it works well or not. That is a bit off-topic since it isn't BB but it could be a useful service for those who don't care to do their own FB ads for whatever reason.

[LilyBLily]

Good luck with your BB. I decided to do only the one other paid ad to complement my BB, plus a newsletter.   

[JRTomlin]

I am interested in seeing whether the cost of stacking really is worth it. I may regret it but it is kind of like throwing everything in the kitchen into your stew and you don't know what worked and what didn't.

[JRTomlin]

Very underwhelming results on the BB promo that ran on the 5th. That novel has had a couple in the past although the most recent was in July 2020. I will hesitate to run any more and definitely not within less than two years.

The total for 1/5 and 1/6 on all retailers is 8,100 downloads, less than half of what I got on my last BB promo. 🤷‍♀️

Sell-through on the rest of the series is also underwhelming, only $260. However, there have also been 40 pre-orders on the sequel so there is that. It is always hard to know when to stop advertising or reduce advertising on an older novel that has done well historically. The sequel comes out at the end of March though, but I could actually treat it as a standalone. Maybe I should, but I don't usually do standalone novels.

[notthatamanda]

Sorry it wasn't that great for you this time.

I just applied for my Contemporary Romance, 1st in trilogy permafree for US only. Had good results with it in Int'l in the fall.

[LilyBLily]

Sorry it wasn't so good.

"Good" is relative and I didn't have big hopes for my international BB since this BB was only seven months after the prior one. It takes a while for a reader to read a long novel, too, so reaching out for the others might come next week, not this week. Also, although BB says make the book discounted for a short period of time, to cover myself with Amazon and given the holidays, I've still got my title discounted until 1/10. So I don't feel I have the full stats yet, just the basic outlines. I know it made a profit, but the question is how much profit?

When I bring out the fourth book in this not-a-series series, then I'll have a similar quandary to yours. Advertise the first book about these families, or just advertise the last one? Or one of the in-between titles?

[JRTomlin]

As far as I can recall I never ran a BB on the 2nd in the trilogy (or should I call it a series since there will be a fourth one ) so I might do a BB on that one, but trying to time it with release of the 4th novel is a pain which is why I don't usually use BB promos for new novels.

[alhawke]

When I bring out the fourth book in this not-a-series series, then I'll have a similar quandary to yours. Advertise the first book about these families, or just advertise the last one? Or one of the in-between titles?

Here's some data that might help. I used my latest international BB two weeks ago to push sales of my new 2nd book in a fantasy trilogy. The intl BB focused on the 1st book at 99c selling 203 copies of the 1st book. The 2nd book, which was a new release, only sold 20. The 3rd book set as preorder sold 10. This was my worse new release ever. But it was also the first time I sold a new release at the "regular" price of $2.99. So next time, I'd consider selling other books in the series at 99c too? Or focus only on the new release? I'm still unsure about it.

I wouldn't say I'm unhappy with the results, but I am unhappy with my new release. I will have to think up something for further promotions. I think my biggest mistake was only garnering 2 reviews through ARCs for the second book, hence low sales during BB. But you get the reviews you get. And, as JRTomlin is saying, you get a BB when you get a BB. Hopefully, I'll have decent sell-through from readers for my second book.

[LilyBLily]

That sounds bad, but I don't think my BB results are any better.

People know they're getting a super bargain when a book whose regular price is $6.99 is available for $0.99, so maybe I get a few hundred sales, but do they then go get the others? Not at $6.99; only a handful of people will. The rest probably wait and hope the other titles will be on sale at 99 cents eventually. I had a good run last year, but it's hard to imagine I can repeat that and I'm not even going to try.

A thought that suddenly seems kind of silly. I probably ought to submit another book to BB.

[alhawke]

A thought that suddenly seems kind of silly. I probably ought to submit another book to BB.

How long do you, or any of you, wait to re-submit? I was really surprised that they took my book for another intl sale only 2 months after the last one in October. Do you guys start applying again right when 30 days is up??? With more and more books, I could conceivably apply quite often, but I don't want to bug.

[LilyBLily]

I would have thought a year between hawking the same book, but I wanted to catch the winter buyers, so it was seven months for that title. As you know, BB sends an email after the current sale ends telling you to submit another book right away. I did that last year and got three in a row, but the fourth book struck out and I know the fifth would, too. (It's not a popular book, period. I gave it a lot of review love from Net Galley and Hidden Gems and my ARC group but it simply did not garner much enthusiasm. I'm not going to bother submitting that one.) I will try one of my titles next week that ran last year. Those would be nine or ten months since the first BB ad for them.

The quality of the book is meaningless; it's how it presents. I can't tell you how many BB books I've scoped out that have extremely negative reviews. They appear to be the dogs of some otherwise successful authors. Aside from a great cover, part of the presentation is reader enthusiasm; if it has lots of reviews BB is going to count that as a positive.   

If I want to try my box set for a BB deal, I'll have to pay someone to pretty up the cover I made for it in Canva. For a box set obviously there aren't likely to be any reviews at all if it's brand new.     

[alhawke]

12 months sounds ideal. But then the question becomes: what about books in series? What about books in the same universe? My recent BB might not have faired as well as I just had a very successful boxed set from BB 2 months prior. Did I saturate my books in the BB market? But fantasy is different than contemporary paranormal romance (and also a harder market to crack).

My main question was how often should I apply right after a promo. It sounds like you apply freely. I didn't want to appear pesty.

One new thing I'm going to try is a paid Kobo free promo paired with a freebooksy. Never done that before.

[JRTomlin]

I generally only submit the first novel in a series. I want the rest to be bought at full price. 🤷‍♀️

[Jeff Tanyard]

How long do you, or any of you, wait to re-submit? I was really surprised that they took my book for another intl sale only 2 months after the last one in October. Do you guys start applying again right when 30 days is up??? With more and more books, I could conceivably apply quite often, but I don't want to bug.

Back in the day, Wayne Stinnett had this stuff down to a science.  He had a schedule he used for Bookbub applications, and he was submitting every single book in his catalogue.  He would apply for both free and paid deals, both U.S. and International-only, and the result was that he was applying for some kind of Bookbub deal more-or-less every single day.  The thirty-day waiting period only applies to the same book and the same deal, and Wayne took full advantage of that.

I've never personally done this--I've only ever applied for the full deal, not Int-only, and I've only ever submitted my first-in-series books--but Wayne's system seemed to work for him.  He also did radio/television ads and other oddball marketing things.

Keep in mind that all this was the case years ago, and I have no idea what he does now.  What worked in 2014 might fail in 2022, and vice versa.  But anyway, there you go.

[alhawke]

Thanks for that, Jeff! Seems the more books you have, the more you can play the odds.

The BookBub requirement is officially: "we will not feature the same book more than once every 6 months. Nor will we feature the same author more than once every 30 days." I wonder if it's okay to apply within 30days since the promo? Because, after all, the next promo is usually scheduled 2-4 weeks out. For the moment, I'm not going to push my luck. I'll wait 30 days to apply. Then I'll do the usual and apply, apply, apply after rejections.

[JRTomlin]

Yes, it is acceptable and I have done it. On very rare occasion I even got it.

[JRTomlin]

About Wayne Stinnett, I was thinking of him when I made my promotion strategy post a short time ago. I just did a little checking and just going by observation, he is still very active and had several BB promotions in 2021. I suppose if it no longer worked for him that he would stop.

[Marti Talbott]

Very rough numbers for my New Year's Eve international BB are in, and I'm in the black by about $100 so far. Fine with me.

Wow, that's impressive. I've never done an international. Maybe I should check that out.

By the way, new heater is in, got it right before the latest freeze. Sure makes taking a shower nicer.

[notthatamanda]

Sorry it wasn't that great for you this time.

I just applied for my Contemporary Romance, 1st in trilogy permafree for US only. Had good results with it in Int'l in the fall.

And they rejected me. Less than 12 hours this time. Wow, that's cold. Glad I have wine left.

[JRTomlin]

Sorry to hear that. Better luck next time and enjoy the wine. 😜

[LilyBLily]

Keep trying. Stubbornness is a virtue in this situation.

[notthatamanda]

There's stubbornness and then there's pigheadedness. Since it is fairly easy and costs nothing I will probably continue to apply. Since I can't figure out how to save the links for the books it's good for a few minutes of procrastination. 

[Marti Talbott]

There's stubbornness and then there's pigheadedness. Since it is fairly easy and costs nothing I will probably continue to apply. Since I can't figure out how to save the links for the books it's good for a few minutes of procrastination.

What's the problem with the links?

[notthatamanda]

For some reason bookbub doesn't save the links on all the platforms for my books so when I apply I have to bring up the book on each individual retailer and cut and paste it in. It's arbitrary, sometimes I have the links for kobo, sometimes I don't, and the same for all the other platforms, except amazon, that's always there. It's not a big deal, it just takes a couple of minutes.

[LilyBLily]

For some reason bookbub doesn't save the links on all the platforms for my books so when I apply I have to bring up the book on each individual retailer and cut and paste it in. It's arbitrary, sometimes I have the links for kobo, sometimes I don't, and the same for all the other platforms, except amazon, that's always there. It's not a big deal, it just takes a couple of minutes.

BB claims it doesn't have B&N each time I apply. Seems absurd. I took a screen shot this time to prove I'd put it in. I can't think of any reason why certain ebookstore links simply don't stick.

[JRTomlin]

Google never sticks for me. 🤷‍♀️

[Marti Talbott]

For some reason bookbub doesn't save the links on all the platforms for my books so when I apply I have to bring up the book on each individual retailer and cut and paste it in. It's arbitrary, sometimes I have the links for kobo, sometimes I don't, and the same for all the other platforms, except amazon, that's always there. It's not a big deal, it just takes a couple of minutes.

BB claims it doesn't have B&N each time Is apply. Seems absurd. I took a screen shot this time to prove I'd put it in. I can't think of any reason why certain ebookstore links simply don't stick.

I've never checked on that. I will next time for sure. On the international, do you see many sales in India. My India sales are always discounted on Amazon. Why? Who knows.

[LilyBLily]

I assume my closed-door romance stories are too risque for Indian readers. These books have kisses! TMI!

I don't look at the numbers but I know they're teeny tiny.

[alhawke]

On the international, do you see many sales in India. My India sales are always discounted on Amazon. Why? Who knows.

I've only sold a couple books in India. That was from a Bookbub two years ago.
I even tried advertising there once--no good for me.

[JRTomlin]

There are 'special' rules about royalties for sales in India. I get so few there I've never worried about it, but I *think* it pretty much has to be in KU to receive 70% there.

[Crystal]

I don't want to run books at a discount/ free that often, so I only submit for BookBubs on a periodic basis. When I decide it's sale time, I make a list of books to submit. Usually, it's 4 or 5 books with a note to self to re-evaluate if you get there.

But... you can't resubmit until you are rejected, so I don't know how anyone is submitting every day. Or even twice a week. I occasionally get a very fast rejection, but it's usually at least 3-4 days.

[Pemry Janes]

I've decided to throw my hat in the ring and put my second book up for an international deal. I have no great hope, but my first book doesn't meet the minimal length requirements.

So I expect a rejection, but you don't know until you try.

[JRTomlin]

I don't want to run books at a discount/ free that often, so I only submit for BookBubs on a periodic basis. When I decide it's sale time, I make a list of books to submit. Usually, it's 4 or 5 books with a note to self to re-evaluate if you get there.

But... you can't resubmit until you are rejected, so I don't know how anyone is submitting every day. Or even twice a week. I occasionally get a very fast rejection, but it's usually at least 3-4 days.

The phrase was 'more or less every single day'. IIRC as soon as one was rejected, he submitted the next on his list which might be the next day or in a couple of days. Since he has a substantial back catalog, he rarely did not have one submitted. He had a policy at the time, and this was some years ago, of submitting in turn his entire catalog, not just book 1 of a series. Although I did notice that he ran a couple of BB promotions last year, I have no idea if he is still doing it the same way.

I still stick with only submitting the first because most of mine really cannot be read out of order. If mine could be read out of order, I would consider doing that way though. It's worth thinking about.

[Jeff Tanyard]

My memory of Wayne's strategy is admittedly hazy (I'm in my forties and declining fast) so just to clear things up a bit, here are some of Wayne's comments about it from 2019:

It has to be in the right order, though. Discounted first, then free. Once it's rejected at free, you have to wait four weeks before submitting that book again. Otherwise, BookBub's submissions would go up 28 times over each day. But you can submit a different book that same day. I have 15 in my main series to choose from, but have never submitted the latest eight books, just the first seven.

Seven books, twice each, with an average two day turnaround for acceptance or rejection is 28 days, then I start over.

The more times you apply, the greater the chance of being selected. BookBub won't feature the same author more than once in a month. I had one on July 21st, so I won't be applying again until August 21st. But from that day forward, BookBub will be considering one of my books every day until they accept one. Every...single...rejection...is immediately followed by a new application.

Since 2014, the only days BookBub isn't considering one of my submissions is during the couple of weeks leading up to a BB Deal. But I do start submitting again the day after the deal, because four weeks out is already on their calendar by then and they won't promote the same author twice in a month. On the day after a BB deal, I'm aiming for that day that just opened up. Lightning never strikes twice? In 2015, I had five BookBub deals from December 31 to May 28, averaging 4.2 weeks apart for 21 weeks. And I own a sailboat. So, I know for certain, that the double strike is possible.

[JRTomlin]

Thanks for finding those. That is not for everyone. It wouldn't work for me. But for people with a series in which the books don't have to be read in order, it is something to think about.

[LilyBLily]

Thanks for finding those. That is not for everyone. It wouldn't work for me. But for people with a series in which the books don't have to be read in order, it is something to think about.

The one book of his that I read--or attempted to read, because I don't think I finished it--seemed to have a lot of returning characters and backstory on them. It wasn't the first in the first series but it might have been the first in the second series--which nevertheless clearly felt like coming in to the movie theater halfway into the show. (Something no one does anymore, right? I did it often as a kid.)

[JRTomlin]

That may be why he said that he only submitted the first seven books in his series. They might be less dependent on knowing previous plots. I've read one of his novels, but to tell you the truth, I don't remember a thing about it. (I'm older than Jeff so ...)

A lot of mystery and romance series don't depend on knowing much about returning characters. How many people that would work for, I honestly don't know. But I wish I thought that constantly keeping a novel submitted to Bookbub would work for me.

[idontknowyet]

Is it usually good that you haven't heard from bookbub right away?I submitted towards the end of last week and its still radio silence.

[Jeff Tanyard]

Is it usually good that you haven't heard from bookbub right away?I submitted towards the end of last week and its still radio silence.

I consider it a good sign.  It means your book is still in the running for a slot.

[alhawke]

Is it usually good that you haven't heard from bookbub right away?I submitted towards the end of last week and its still radio silence.

I've gotten an acceptance after a day, but the majority after 5-7 days. But I'm not convinced there's a set pattern.
Good luck!

[notthatamanda]

Is it usually good that you haven't heard from bookbub right away?I submitted towards the end of last week and its still radio silence.

I consider it a good sign.  It means your book is still in the running for a slot.

Yes, once you are rejected, you are rejected. So you still have a chance. Good luck, idontknowyet.

[LilyBLily]

Good luck!

[idontknowyet]

Still no word!

[Pemry Janes]

Still no word!

I'm crossing my fingers for you.

In my own news, I haven't heard back yet either so I guess I actually have some chance.

[idontknowyet]

Still no word!

I'm crossing my fingers for you.

In my own news, I haven't heard back yet either so I guess I actually have some chance.

I hope we both get it!!!!!!

[Pemry Janes]

I hope we both get it!!!!!!

Alas, just got the mail rejecting my submission.

I think I'll try again in a couple of months.

[Eric Thomson]

Just got my latest rejection as well. It's now been 2yrs since BB gave me a featured deal.

[LilyBLily]

Sorry you didn't make it. Some of the latest books BB is touting look like absolute dogs, too.

I still haven't sent in a new submission. I don't enjoy getting rejected at the best of times and January is never the best of times.

[idontknowyet]

Youre all going to be shocked, but bookbub said no.

[LilyBLily]

You're all going to be shocked, but bookbub said no.

Rats!   

[Pemry Janes]

Youre all going to be shocked, but bookbub said no.

Damn, I thought you would get it.

[notthatamanda]

Welcome to the club. Better luck next time. 

[idontknowyet]

Youre all going to be shocked, but bookbub said no.

Damn, I thought you would get it.

We were soo close. Next time!

OR in my case 80x after that I might get a go.

[JRTomlin]

Bleck. Got turned down for a BB New Release for Less promo.

[lgtwriter]

I'm in the middle of the week on a Bookbub International Only featured deal. I think I will have broken even by the end of the week, but my Bookbub New Releases for Less that I did in November did better. But of course, that had the US in it.

Literary Fiction, and I have sold about 150 copies give or take at .99. Since a lot of them are in the UK, I at least get $1.34 Us dollars. What kills, royalty wise, is the 35% royalty since I didn't have an Amazon deal I could stack this with.

Upside: Canadian and Australian readers now that I can market to.
Dowside: I am not making any money lol

[JRTomlin]

I made the mistake of at least mentally counting on a New Release for Less promo and am struggling to figure out how to make up for it. The fact is even stacking, no one comes close to the 1,530,000+ reach BB has for historical fiction readers. 🤦‍♀️🙄

I'll do my best with some smaller promos and with BB ads to comp authors. It has taken a huge amount of testing but I finally have a reasonably long list of decent comps. (And bb ads really depend on having the right comp authors IMO) But re-testing my comps and testing a few new ones, I just spent $200 for 568 clicks. Since none of my other promos for that have kicked in yet, then I can account for the 400ish downloads across my platforms to those ads. Meh. Best I can say is so-so.

[Lorri Moulton]

I don't even apply to BookBub anymore.  I'm just using Fussy Librarian and writing more books. 

[LilyBLily]

I finally submitted a title again for a featured deal. We'll see what happens!

[Marti Talbott]

I finally submitted a title again for a featured deal. We'll see what happens!

Good luck! I landed an international BB for $154.00 that ran on Wednesday. So far around 850 downloads of The Viking. Naturally, Zon didn't mark my .CA down, so no go there. This book has been free forever, so I didn't think I needed to check. I should know better. Now I wait to see the buy-throughs.

[LilyBLily]

BookBub just turned down my submission. Why are they working on a Saturday afternoon?

I'll send them something else next week, I guess, but first I should tinker with my blurbs for this series and add some A+ content, and all the rest.

[Marti Talbott]

BookBub just turned down my submission. Why are they working on a Saturday afternoon?

I'll send them something else next week, I guess, but first I should tinker with my blurbs for this series and add some A+ content, and all the rest.

I think that for the Bot to reject a submission on Saturday, there must be something in your submission that doesn't fit their agenda for that genre, something that the bot could spot right away. Maybe changing the blurb is a good idea, concentrating more on keywords for that genre? Just a thought.

If only I was better at taking my own advice.

[notthatamanda]

One thing I noticed with my bookbub (Int'l only) was that I had significant returns on books 2 and 3 with bookbub. Usually I get one or two readers a year returning books 2 and 3 after presumably reading them. I got more returns after that bookbub than all total since I published the trilogy in 2016. It kind of soured me on future bookbubs to be honest.

But best of luck to the rest of you.

[LilyBLily]

You think BookBub uses a bot? I guess that makes sense since they get inundated with submissions, but then again, why wouldn't the bot have rejected my book within mere hours of it being submitted instead of waiting two-and-a-half days? My assumption is they held it until they got a better submission for the category. However, maybe I'm wrong about that. We really don't know how they do their decision making.

How many days' worth of submissions do they compare at one time? My newsletter from BB always contains one time travel romance, for instance. Just one. Do they pool all the time travel romance submissions per week and then pick their favorite seven? Or do they decide daily? They only work 30 days in advance, so at most they'd consider 30 time travel romances at one time, one would think. Do they have an internal deadline for choosing, and they hold some possibles until that deadline, hoping an expensive trad pub ad comes in? That would seem the most likely scenario. It's weird, though, that we actually do not know how they choose. 

[Marti Talbott]

You think BookBub uses a bot? I guess that makes sense since they get inundated with submissions, but then again, why wouldn't the bot have rejected my book within mere hours of it being submitted instead of waiting two-and-a-half days? My assumption is they held it until they got a better submission for the category. However, maybe I'm wrong about that. We really don't know how they do their decision making.

How many days' worth of submissions do they compare at one time? My newsletter from BB always contains one time travel romance, for instance. Just one. Do they pool all the time travel romance submissions per week and then pick their favorite seven? Or do they decide daily? They only work 30 days in advance, so at most they'd consider 30 time travel romances at one time, one would think. Do they have an internal deadline for choosing, and they hold some possibles until that deadline, hoping an expensive trad pub ad comes in? That would seem the most likely scenario. It's weird, though, that we actually do not know how they choose.

Logic would dictate that their decisions are based on reader preferences. If time travel books have lost their reader pull, then maybe it's that and not anything an author can change to make the book more saleable. I'm just guessing, of course. I wonder if we can tell by scrutinizing their price list. I've thought all along that their "predicted" download numbers are inflated because many of those are authors and not necessarily readers.

[idontknowyet]

Not related but Marti i love the new cover!!!!! So pretty!

[Marti Talbott]

Not related but Marti i love the new cover!!!!! So pretty!

Thank you!

[LilyBLily]

We're nearing the end of the month, so Amazon has let me know that one of my discounted books--the one that had a BookBub on December 31st--has earned me nine cents in India.

I hope they liked the story. 

[idontknowyet]

It felt like i had a full read through of my entire series for like a quarter in india. Doesn't seem profitable for amazon.

[alhawke]

We're nearing the end of the month, so Amazon has let me know that one of my discounted books--the one that had a BookBub on December 31st--has earned me nine cents in India.
I hope they liked the story. 

I didn't sell any books in India last year at all--including after BookBub promos. I sold my first book in Japan . Nothing in India.

[LilyBLily]

Got another international only BookBub for early September and feel lucky that I didn't get Labor Day.

The interesting thing is BB says it's only going to be for Canada, Australia, and the UK. No India or other random countries. No Europe.

[idontknowyet]

Congrats!

[notthatamanda]

Congratulations Lily and good luck. Is it the first in a series?
I just popped open Bookbub and it looks like they dropped India. Wonder why.
I submitted an audiobook deal, that did well for me once. It was free the one time I got it, now they are charging 10% so no money up front. FYI - you have to distribute through Findaway to do that.

[LilyBLily]

Women's fiction. A stand-alone title that I've now claimed is third in a very loosely connected series. I have never yet started a series intentionally, although possibly I am about to. It's hard for a pantster to plan ahead.

[alhawke]

I have never yet started a series intentionally, although possibly I am about to. It's hard for a pantster to plan ahead.

Same with me. Good luck with your BB! 

[LilyBLily]

I've set my title that will have an international BookBub to 99 cents on Kobo for a number of days, but I note that if I let Kobo take another 10% off the top, I can perhaps participate in one of its Double Daily Deal promotions. One has to submit to Kobo, but if I say I have a BookBub they'll probably accept my pleading. (Ain't advertising wonderful?)

Question is, is it worth it? Opinions?

(This is women's fiction, basically stand alone, very loosely connected to a few other books. It might sell the others, but it's not Book 1 in a series.)

[alhawke]

I've set my title that will have an international BookBub to 99 cents on Kobo for a number of days, but I note that if I let Kobo take another 10% off the top, I can perhaps participate in one of its Double Daily Deal promotions.

I'd try to add it. I did this in October for a 99c US BB promo. I told them a BB was scheduled and they accepted the Double Daily Deal. My book was a paranormal fantasy Boxed Set. Kobo sales were 110 that week, largely from the Double Daily Deal. But I found ads were most effective. I ran B&N BB ads and had about 350 sales in B&N. B&N gives no extra promo push, so, though I loved Kobo's extra boost, I found my ads packed the greatest punch. In the future, ads are where I plan my focus to lie when bolstering a BB ad.

As far as the 10% drop, most of the money you'll get back with your BookBub promo will be from your Amazon sales. While the extra Kobo sales from the Double Daily might break even the 10% loss in Kobo.

[LilyBLily]

Interestingly, Kobo immediately refused my submission, saying it won't allow a planned price drop to overlap with their Double Daily Deal promotion. Since it would be folly to not discount my book on the very day BookBub is advertising it, I can't do Kobo's promo that falls on different days. Oh, well. I guess that means I won't lose an additional nickel per sale after all.   

 

[alhawke]

Interestingly, Kobo immediately refused my submission, saying it won't allow a planned price drop to overlap with their Double Daily Deal promotion.

I don't see any other way to connect the two promos. The only thing I did differently than you was contact them before I price dropped it. You could email them direct outside of the deal application and explain the situation.

I hope it's not something silly like their AI system didn't accept your book application since you already price dropped it (I fear that could be the problem).

[notthatamanda]

It will be interesting to see what you get with the bookbub without the daily double. I sold 81 of my psych thriller on Kobo during my international bookbub when it was 99 cents (December 2018).

Good luck.

[LilyBLily]

Kobo suggested I drop the regular price instead of doing a timed price drop. Then I could submit and might qualify for a Double Daily Deal. However, it also takes 48 hours for Kobo to realize I changed the price. So I keep checking to see if it has accepted that so I can try again to submit to the Double Daily Deal.

Or is it the Daily Double Deal? No, that doesn't sound right. 

Anyway, one of the dates for the deal closes tomorrow and I'm not holding my breath that this will clear up by then.

[alhawke]

Kobo suggested I drop the regular price instead of doing a timed price drop.

I never run a timed price drop. I can't recall why. I think it's because there's still been delays with resuming regular price, but I... can't recall. I wouldn't use their schedule. I'd just change the regular price for every price drop.

Give it a go, if you still can. The BookBub will push things a little and might get you accepted.

Even if you don't get the Double Deal, you might want to mention that you're running the BB to their main contact staff. There's other deal sections that their editors might be able to fit your book in, aside from their regular listed promos. Good luck!

[LilyBLily]

The Kobo daily deal rigmarole--backing out of the sale price and then applying for the deal--did not work despite what they told me. The correct price drop did occur and that's that.

So far, results are reasonable, and it's a kick having a book in the top 100 of any store. In a couple of categories, it's even in the top 10.

Interestingly, in the Amazon U.S. store, despite having sold well over 100 copies today, the book ranks only in the 24 thousands. A tribute to just how many books are for sale on Amazon these days. Used to be that one could attain a much better rank with far fewer sales.   

(Edited to correct my error, since the current KDP sales page does not show marketplaces the way the old one does. Checking that, I see the U.S. sales, while still ahead of the worldwide sales, are not so many units more than, say, Australia. Thus the ranking this morning at 35k in the U.S., while still unfortunately proportional to the vast U.S. store, is not for every Amazon sale.)

I remember many years ago working for a company that had a big publicity push planned for a certain day. Then a world leader was assassinated that day. So much for plans. I don't think the dear Queen's death today is likely to affect my international BookBub today, but the title of my book relates to death, so who knows?

Edited to add more details and then again to clarify them.

[LilyBLily]

Unfortunately, since my international BookBub deal was for the UK and two of the Commonwealth countries and was for the very day Queen Elizabeth died, it is not surprising that the ad did not earn out during this period of public spectacle and emotion. People read my kind of fiction to be emotional, and the royal family provided that for them last week and still is doing so this week.

I bought two U.S.-based modest newsletter ads ($90) and sent out a newsletter ($7). Had I not paid for the ads, the BB deal might have just broken even.

I can't say this is a lesson-learned situation; it's just bad luck to have collided with a world event. 

Maybe I'll get a few new fans from it and some ratings. Most people who bother to read my books like them.

[alhawke]

I can't say this is a lesson-learned situation; it's just bad luck to have collided with a world event. 

Sounds like it. Sorry to hear it. Hopefully you still make the money back with the tail and get some new fans.

[LilyBLily]

Having finally been paid for all my September sales, I think I edged into a tiny profit on my otherwise disastrous Sept. 8 international BookBub deal.

Meanwhile, BookBub keeps trawling (or is it trolling?) for more deal submissions.

Eh. Maybe I'll try again with my western box set. January is a good month for binge reading.

[cecilia_writer]

That was really bad luck but I'm glad you came out a little way ahead.
My Setptember sales were dreadful - I don't think anybody in the UK was reading much until after the funeral as there was such a lot of live drama involved in the ceremonial events, the queues etc.

[LilyBLily]

I've submitted another book for a deal. Women's fiction. I don't know the ideal spacing between discounts, but the last one on this title was New Years' Eve. Talk about my crazy luck!

I was going to try with the western box set but BookBub has never given me a deal on any western romance, perhaps rightly realizing that an international only deal for a western would not do well. The era of westerns being super popular the world over has long since waned. This even though they continue to do well with U.S. readers in more than one subgenre--the straight western action story and the western romance. In fact, they do surprisingly well. The urge to visit wide open spaces is still there, apparently.

[alhawke]

I've submitted another book for a deal. Women's fiction. I don't know the ideal spacing between discounts, but the last one on this title was New Years' Eve. Talk about my crazy luck!

I was going to try with the western box set but BookBub has never given me a deal on any western romance, perhaps rightly realizing that an international only deal for a western would not do well. The era of westerns being super popular the world over has long since waned. This even though they continue to do well with U.S. readers in more than one subgenre--the straight western action story and the western romance. In fact, they do surprisingly well. The urge to visit wide open spaces is still there, apparently.

Good luck! I submitted under supernatural suspense this week.  I had a new release for less ran last month, but this is a completely different book and category. And it's been over a month, so...  I'm trying for a BB free. I've never ran a free promo with BB. They've only accepted 99c promos with my books. But free is cheaper and I was thinking it might help with exposure.?? So I'll be waiting seven days for their "unfortunately Yada yada"...

[LilyBLily]

Got a nope from BB.  My only regret is that other ads are harder to organize--and now I have no excuse and must do some other ads. 

[alhawke]

Got a nope from BB.  My only regret is that other ads are harder to organize--and now I have no excuse and must do some other ads.

Sorry to hear it. Me too. For me, that makes 7 rejections in 9 months. Last BB promo was in February.
I've worked out that if I pay around the same amount with strong alternate stacked promos as one BookBub, I get about 1/4 as many sales--which is still good. In other words, an average of 250 instead of 1000 for a 99c promo. But it proves how worth it is to keep applying to BB.

[LilyBLily]

I just organized a promo for my western box set. I might submit it to BB even though they have never ever said yes to one of my western romances and I don't see those advertised on BB either. Or maybe it would make more sense to do a CPC ad. I'll think about that. Too many options.

[Jan Hurst-Nicholson]

I submitted Bheki and the Magic Light. It was originally published by Penguin in their Puffin series. I subsequently had the rights returned to me. It is an illustrated chapter book for 7-12 yrs. Presumably Penguin know what they are doing re page length and it is 54 printed pages. BookBub turned it down claiming that middle grade books have to be a minimum of 100 pages 
How the Grinch Stole Christmas is a similar length at 61 pages. 
This means that none of my children's books will ever be accepted. 

I'm now contemplating taking out a BookBub ad, but it seems to be very complicated and time-consuming. Has anyone had any luck with an ad for a children's book?

[alhawke]

I'm now contemplating taking out a BookBub ad, but it seems to be very complicated and time-consuming. Has anyone had any luck with an ad for a children's book?

I sell a lot of books with BookBub ads. However on writing forums, I'm pretty unique with my success. I also have created upwards of 200 creatives for BookBub--I think why trial and error has helped. You need to pair a good creative with a short eye catching tagline.

Unfortunately, my genre is paranormal romance, not children's books, so I can't help you regarding you genre. I would suggest you search through BookBub for similar books and see if you see a trend with other writers, Indie and trad, to see if it seems like they're successful. I'm not even sure how good the market is for your genre with BB ads.

[LilyBLily]

Definitely study the kinds of children's books BookBub promotes. Regardless, the CPC ads you buy can be an end run around their page length rules. If you can manage a wonderful ad, it may catch the eye of a generous grandparent and you'll do fine. (Easier said than done, I know.)

As I recall, alhawke does not discount the books in CPC BB ads. You probably don't need to, either. 

[alhawke]

As I recall, alhawke does not discount the books in CPC BB ads. You probably don't need to, either.

My ads are for full priced books--only I "discount" my initial book 1 at $3.99 USD; subsequent books in the series I sell for $4.99.

[Jan Hurst-Nicholson]

Thanks for all the above advice. 

I'm going cross-eyed reading all the BookBub advice and I ended up with about 10 open pages  .
I was going to add authors but decided that the only two that really matched my Leon Chameleon PI  stories would be Kenneth Grahame (The Wind in the Willows) and Beatrix Potter and I wasn't sure that today's children or parents would be familiar with these classics, or at least they wouldn't be likely to be searching for them. But as grandmothers are a target audience as part of the ad I put "Fans of Beatrix Potter will love Leon Chameleon PI." A reviewer wrote that Leon was "destined to become a classic" so I added that.
I'm going for impressions rather than ROI at the moment so opted to try a free promotion, although I've learned that people will take free items (whatever they are) whether they want them or not,  but as there is a second book in the series I'm hoping for a few sales there. 

[alhawke]

I'd experiment. Usually the advice is to find authors who have around 50k followers, not too popular authors. I think that was David Gaughran's advice (if you can find his blog about BB ads, I'd check it out). Also just put up a few with $5/day bids and watch and see what's successful.

Finding the right author is huge in getting enough clicks--this probably works similarly with any ads, including AMS.

[RiverRun]

All I read is the look inside preview on Amazon, and while it looks really cute, it didn't seem much like Wind in the Willows or Beatrix Potter to me. It actually seemed a little more like Rikki Tikki Tavi but that's not exactly modern either!

What about Nate the Great? Not animals, and written for a lower reading level, but its one of the most popular mystery series for young readers.

The tone is different but Hank the Cowdog is an animal that solves mysteries. These are very tongue-in- cheek books so they mat not be quite right either. Just some more ideas.

The Burgess Animal books are quite old but still sell thru Dover Books. Might be worth seeing if they are on bookbub.

[RiverRun]

Encyclopedia Brown, maybe?

Toaff's Way by Cynthia Voigt?


The book does seem on the short side for middle grade. That's about ages 11 to 14. Wind in the Willows is a long chapter book that is right for that age but Beatrix Potter is considered a children's book, more for ages 5-8 or so.
Is there anything about the book to prevent you from putting it into the children's book category? Many parents still read aloud to kids under 10 or so, so a more challenging reading level might be okay. And I think there's an assumption sometimes that books about animals are for young kids.

I don't necessarily agree with this assumption. (Book of the Dun Cow and Watership Down are two of my favorite books as an adult) Just saying that the assumption is often made.

[RiverRun]

Sorry to keep posting. I re-read what you said above. The Grinch is definitely not a middle grade book. Its firmly in the children's category today. Middle grade is its own animal.  In the US that's grade 6-8, or about ages 12-14. Its a pretty specific designation. The first 3-4 Harry Potter books would be middle grade. I'm not saying a 12 year old wouldn't enjoy your book because he likely would. But for reasons I'm not altogether familiar with, book marketing to kids has become very segmented. I think this benefits publishers but also coincides with an overall cultural shift. Books, games, clubs, clothes, movies are marketed to specific age ranges. Its actually a little weird when you think about it but most of us in the states are used to it. So what parameters your publisher used 10-20 years ago may not reflect how things are sold now. I found this thru Google. Looks about right to me. [https://miriamlaundry.com/childrens-book-age-categories/

[Jan Hurst-Nicholson]

All I read is the look inside preview on Amazon, and while it looks really cute, it didn't seem much like Wind in the Willows or Beatrix Potter to me. It actually seemed a little more like Rikki Tikki Tavi but that's not exactly modern either!

What about Nate the Great? Not animals, and written for a lower reading level, but its one of the most popular mystery series for young readers.

The tone is different but Hank the Cowdog is an animal that solves mysteries. These are very tongue-in- cheek books so they mat not be quite right either. Just some more ideas.

The Burgess Animal books are quite old but still sell thru Dover Books. Might be worth seeing if they are on bookbub.

Thanks.
I was looking for books with animal anthropomorphism. As a child I loved Beatrix Potter and Peter Rabbit etc, but especially Mrs Tiggy Winkle as we had hedgehogs in the garden. I also enjoyed Maya the Bee on TV, but no one would recognise the writer 
Leon is different in that all the animals have to solve the problems using their actual animal attributes, so the children learn about the small creatures without actually realising the teaching element. I don't know of any other books that do that.

[Jan Hurst-Nicholson]

Encyclopedia Brown, maybe?

Toaff's Way by Cynthia Voigt?


The book does seem on the short side for middle grade. That's about ages 11 to 14. Wind in the Willows is a long chapter book that is right for that age but Beatrix Potter is considered a children's book, more for ages 5-8 or so.
Is there anything about the book to prevent you from putting it into the children's book category? Many parents still read aloud to kids under 10 or so, so a more challenging reading level might be okay. And I think there's an assumption sometimes that books about animals are for young kids.

I don't necessarily agree with this assumption. (Book of the Dun Cow and Watership Down are two of my favorite books as an adult) Just saying that the assumption is often made.

Thanks.

The  age group is 7-12 yrs and is intended for children who are transitioning from picture books to chapter books. The page length is the standard for that age group. We don't have 'middle grade' here, and I don't think they have it in the UK.

I did put it in the children's category for the BookBub deal as that is the only one I could find, but BookBub slotted it into middle grade for their review process, so I can't win there.   

A nine-year old reviewer wrote "and my mother enjoyed reading it to my younger brother as she said she doesn't like reading Noddy to him as it's boring.'  . I do put in the blurb that parents enjoy reading it to younger children.

[Jan Hurst-Nicholson]

Sorry to keep posting. I re-read what you said above. The Grinch is definitely not a middle grade book. Its firmly in the children's category today. Middle grade is its own animal.  In the US that's grade 6-8, or about ages 12-14. Its a pretty specific designation. The first 3-4 Harry Potter books would be middle grade. I'm not saying a 12 year old wouldn't enjoy your book because he likely would. But for reasons I'm not altogether familiar with, book marketing to kids has become very segmented. I think this benefits publishers but also coincides with an overall cultural shift. Books, games, clubs, clothes, movies are marketed to specific age ranges. Its actually a little weird when you think about it but most of us in the states are used to it. So what parameters your publisher used 10-20 years ago may not reflect how things are sold now. I found this thru Google. Looks about right to me. [https://miriamlaundry.com/childrens-book-age-categories/

Thanks.
In SA we have to consider readers who are reading English as a second language so that is why we say 7 -12 yrs as the upper age limit is for second language English readers.
It's very frustrating that my children's books don't fit into the BookBub categories as the books have had good reviews and I would be more willing to risk paying for a featured deal with them than with my novels  . When my friend asked her grandson what he wanted for Christmas he said, "Another Leon book." I sent him the 3rd in the series that wasn't even illustrated. Still haven't had it illustrated.
I guess I will have to go the BookBub paid ads route and see what happens. .

[RiverRun]

That makes a lot of sense. I was only thinking in terms of the US market. A superficial glance at Bookbub made it look they were using US expectations. I have a wide age range of kids in my house and the older kids routinely read picture books if they are around. Leon is now on my list of books to buy:) But I think if you wanted to target the US market you would need to change the recommended age range. Just because of the way people have been trained to shop for children's books here. Books for middle grade sometimes have content inappropriate for the age 5-9 crowd, so I myself would be reluctant to pick out a book for my 8 yr old if it was listed for 12 year olds. Subjects like death and young love are acceptable in middle grade but only alluded to, and usually avoided in the children's category. So its not just length or reading level.

I also can't think right now of another book about anthropomorphic animals using their traits to solve mysteries. It sounds very clever! But there are mysteries in the children's books section. I would look for those.

[Bill Hiatt]

Interesting discussion!

Anthropomorphic animals are certainly used a lot in children's books. But it may be there aren't a lot of examples of them as detectives. Original ideas are sometimes hard to fit into categories created by publishers.

[Jan Hurst-Nicholson]

That makes a lot of sense. I was only thinking in terms of the US market. A superficial glance at Bookbub made it look they were using US expectations. I have a wide age range of kids in my house and the older kids routinely read picture books if they are around. Leon is now on my list of books to buy:) But I think if you wanted to target the US market you would need to change the recommended age range. Just because of the way people have been trained to shop for children's books here. Books for middle grade sometimes have content inappropriate for the age 5-9 crowd, so I myself would be reluctant to pick out a book for my 8 yr old if it was listed for 12 year olds. Subjects like death and young love are acceptable in middle grade but only alluded to, and usually avoided in the children's category. So its not just length or reading level.

I also can't think right now of another book about anthropomorphic animals using their traits to solve mysteries. It sounds very clever! But there are mysteries in the children's books section. I would look for those.

Thanks 
If you are thinking of buying the Leon book it will be free from 7-11th December 
BookBub seems to go straight from children's books (picture books) to middle grade. I will ask them what happens to the 6-11 yrs group. They don't seem to cater for that. 

[Jan Hurst-Nicholson]

Interesting discussion!

Anthropomorphic animals are certainly used a lot in children's books. But it may be there aren't a lot of examples of them as detectives. Original ideas are sometimes hard to fit into categories created by publishers.

Thanks.
By making the story educational I was hoping the book would become a school class reader. It was published by a trad publisher (their first children's book) and one school did buy copies to use as a class reader, but unfortunately the educational dept. did not take it on nationwide.
Amen to original ideas being hard to fit into categories 

[Jan Hurst-Nicholson]

I have submitted the below to BookBub in the hope that they will include chapter books in their ads. They are losing out on a whole category of children's books by omitting this age group 

Chapter Books (6-10 Years Old)
Chapter books are for children who have learned how to read on their own and are looking for a more challenging read but are not quite ready to dive into a full novel. These books feature short chapters, a simple plot, and are typically between 8.5-12 thousand words.

From the link kindly provided by RiverRun [https://miriamlaundry.com/childrens-book-age-categories/

I will have to find more chapter book writers to join my campaign 

[Jan Hurst-Nicholson]

I will have to find more chapter book writers to join my campaign 

That could help. It might be that BookBub doesn't think they have enough of a market in advertising that younger category? If other author friends join, they'll probably take a look at it.

I submitted to the 'children' category as that was the only one they had. They replied to my query:
 
Hi, Jan,
 
Hope you're well and thank you so much for following up here!
 
For some context, though you initially submitted to our Children's category, this BookBub category is intended for a younger age demographic than the reading level of Bheki and the Magic Light. For this reason, our editors moved your submission to our Middle Grade category for review, which has a page-count minimum requirement of 100 pages.
 
I apologize for any disappointment that might cause, but I'd encourage you to reach back out with any questions you may have about this!

Will keep you updated on their next reply 

[Jan Hurst-Nicholson]

I have received another reply from BookBub.

Hi, Jan,
 
Happy Thursday! I appreciate you taking the time to reach back out here.
 
At present, the three categories that we offer for younger readers are Children's, Middle Grade, and Teen and Young Adult. You can view our 'Teen and Young Readers' categories here, as well as check them out to get a sense of the kinds of books we offer in our Children's and Middle Grade lists.
 
I’ll note that our editors always review submissions with the aim of choosing titles that best fit our readers' content interests in the given category. This can be tricky, because these parameters are often specific to the BookBub audience rather than traditional bookstore goers/demographics.
 
If none of these are a great category fit for you, a tool that you may be interested in here is BookBub Ads, our flexible auction-style advertising platform. BookBub Ads are displayed at the bottom of our daily emails and on BookBub.com — they can be used to advertise any kind of book content. You have complete control over your campaign budget, length, image, and audience targeting, which means you can create an ad that’s tailored to achieving your goals. If you’d like to learn more about this tool, you can do so here:
•   https://www.bookbub.com/partners/bookbub_ads
 
I do hope this context is useful, and if you have further questions about this, I'm happy to help however I can!

They are trying to be helpful, but the BookBub ads give me exactly the same problem - I can only choose from two categories, 'children' and 'middle grade' neither of which fit the 6-11 or 7-12 yr group.  Or maybe I am missing something 

I have asked that they consider adding a 'chapter book' group for the 7-12 yrs.

[alhawke]

You can direct ads to authors only and disregard the category.

But I'm trying to get your category problem (I don't write children's books, so I might be missing something here). Middle Grade should fit your 7-12 age range. As far as length, for their book promos, I know for adult books, novels have to be 150 pages or more (which is why I've seen some authors actually aim for 150pg books).

[RiverRun]

YA or teen books/ middle grade books/ children's books  are more like individual genres. Each tends to have its own tone and story expectations. It becomes muddy because the age recommendations are mixed up in it, but the age limits are not about who might enjoy a particular book. It has to do with fitting tone, pacing and subject matter. A children's book avoids complex emotional incidents and is paced fast enough to keep a younger child interested. It even has its own tropes. Anthropomorphic animals who don't experience complex feelings or emotional turmoil probably belong in childrens. If the average 7 year old is likely to be engaged by it, its a children's book. A middle grade book has to be long and complex enough to interest a young teenager.

Maybe this will make it easier to understand. In the US, kids start elementary school about age 5 and stay there till about age 10. They start middle school about 11 or 12 years old, and stay there until 13 or 14. This is often in a whole different building. They have their own school library. Middle grade is written for that age group and that library. Long chapters, more mature subjects. They have left beginning reading far behind. (Not saying this is what always happens. But this is the expectation.) Students 10 and under have a different school library. So, different books. 7-12 years leaves you in no man's land according to US categories.

So I think your book would fit well in childrens books. To fit  bookbub's children category you would have to narrow the recommended age range. (I don't even know if you can do that.) you would have to change the recommended age for your book.

ETA - now that I think of it, you're book specifically mentions a death at the beginning, doesn't. It? Which might be why it was rejected for children's book category. You would probably need to find someone who knows more than I do to tell you whether this makes it inadmissable as a Childrens book.

But you are welcome to completely ignore me too:) Hope you find a good place to spread the word about the book!

[Jan Hurst-Nicholson]

You can direct ads to authors only and disregard the category.

But I'm trying to get your category problem (I don't write children's books, so I might be missing something here). Middle Grade should fit your 7-12 age range. As far as length, for their book promos, I know for adult books, novels have to be 150 pages or more (which is why I've seen some authors actually aim for 150pg books).

Thanks for your interest in my problem.

I don't know of any authors who write similar books to mine. My Leon Chameleon PI books feature anthropomorphic animals and I have likened them to Beatrix Potter or Kenneth Grahame, but I doubt if many readers search for those names. Categories will reach the most readers.
My books are chapter books, but BookBub only have 'children' and 'middle grade'. Their middle grade requires a minimum page count of 100 pages
and my books (trad published) are about 60 pages.

[Jan Hurst-Nicholson]

YA or teen books/ middle grade books/ children's books  are more like individual genres. Each tends to have its own tone and story expectations. It becomes muddy because the age recommendations are mixed up in it, but the age limits are not about who might enjoy a particular book. It has to do with fitting tone, pacing and subject matter. A children's book avoids complex emotional incidents and is paced fast enough to keep a younger child interested. It even has its own tropes. Anthropomorphic animals who don't experience complex feelings or emotional turmoil probably belong in childrens. If the average 7 year old is likely to be engaged by it, its a children's book. A middle grade book has to be long and complex enough to interest a young teenager.

Maybe this will make it easier to understand. In the US, kids start elementary school about age 5 and stay there till about age 10. They start middle school about 11 or 12 years old, and stay there until 13 or 14. This is often in a whole different building. They have their own school library. Middle grade is written for that age group and that library. Long chapters, more mature subjects. They have left beginning reading far behind. (Not saying this is what always happens. But this is the expectation.) Students 10 and under have a different school library. So, different books. 7-12 years leaves you in no man's land according to US categories.

So I think your book would fit well in childrens books. To fit  bookbub's children category you would have to narrow the recommended age range. (I don't even know if you can do that.) you would have to change the recommended age for your book.

ETA - now that I think of it, you're book specifically mentions a death at the beginning, doesn't. It? Which might be why it was rejected for children's book category. You would probably need to find someone who knows more than I do to tell you whether this makes it inadmissable as a Childrens book.

But you are welcome to completely ignore me too:) Hope you find a good place to spread the word about the book!

Thanks so much for your reply.

I can easily change the reading age to 6-10 yrs, which fits the intended chapter book category, but BookBub don't have that category. They jump from children's to middle grade and my page length is approx 60 pages and BookBub require 100 pages for their middle grade.

The books have been trad published so they fit the reading requirements/storyline for that age group (my Leon books have actually won awards, cough, cough   )

My books don't mention death at all, except for The Race, which briefly mentions that gran has come to visit because grandad died.

It's very frustrating to be thwarted by the page length/category 

[RiverRun]

I'm sorry, I misremembered about the mystery in the Leon book. Its been a busy week. But so much the better. I was just looking at some popular books on Amazon. The Grinch is age 3 and up which is a completely useless label. Probably because its so popular. But Dr. Suess's Horton Hears a Who is supposed to be for age 3-8. The Tale of Peter Rabbit is labeled age 1-5. The Magic Tree House books, which are by far the most successful chapter books for young readers,and have a similar chapter length to your Leon PI, are labeled age 5-8. So you could legitimately label your book for 5-8 if it was ever expedient for you. The US childrens book market is so big that they can categorize books quite narrowly, so recommendations from other countries may not be the best guide.  I've probably bored everyone with my diatribe here and will leave you all to get back to discussing bookbub. I just wanted to encourage you to try listing your book for a younger age range if you want to market it to a US audience.

Regarding similar authors - I think a lot of adults enjoy sharing classic kids books with children so I wouldn't hesitate to use an older author's name in an ad. For contemporary authors you might try Kate Dicamillio or Mary Pope Osborne (the magic treehouse author). They both write chapter books that involve adventure and mystery, and dicamillio has some talking animal books.

Here's another. Ron Roy. A to Z mysteries.

[Jan Hurst-Nicholson]

I'm sorry, I misremembered about the mystery in the Leon book. Its been a busy week. But so much the better. I was just looking at some popular books on Amazon. The Grinch is age 3 and up which is a completely useless label. Probably because its so popular. But Dr. Suess's Horton Hears a Who is supposed to be for age 3-8. The Tale of Peter Rabbit is labeled age 1-5. The Magic Tree House books, which are by far the most successful chapter books for young readers,and have a similar chapter length to your Leon PI, are labeled age 5-8. So you could legitimately label your book for 5-8 if it was ever expedient for you. The US childrens book market is so big that they can categorize books quite narrowly, so recommendations from other countries may not be the best guide.  I've probably bored everyone with my diatribe here and will leave you all to get back to discussing bookbub. I just wanted to encourage you to try listing your book for a younger age range if you want to market it to a US audience.

Regarding similar authors - I think a lot of adults enjoy sharing classic kids books with children so I wouldn't hesitate to use an older author's name in an ad. For contemporary authors you might try Kate Dicamillio or Mary Pope Osborne (the magic treehouse author). They both write chapter books that involve adventure and mystery, and dicamillio has some talking animal books.

Here's another. Ron Roy. A to Z mysteries.

Thank you so much for this useful information.

I have checked out Kate Dicamillio. One of her books is 66 pages and "Most customers got this book for a child between 6 and 8 years old." I see one of her books also says from 7 yrs up. I could try that. 

I will add her to the author list.

[alhawke]

I don't know of any authors who write similar books to mine. My Leon Chameleon PI books feature anthropomorphic animals and I have likened them to Beatrix Potter or Kenneth Grahame, but I doubt if many readers search for those names. Categories will reach the most readers.
My books are chapter books, but BookBub only have 'children' and 'middle grade'. Their middle grade requires a minimum page count of 100 pages
and my books (trad published) are about 60 pages.

You might find ads that still work well with smaller size books (but it sucks that their editors are not accepting them for promos though ).

Ads are expensive, not only due to the ad cost themselves, but the testing needed. I wouldn't put too much thought over the authors on your BookBub ad tests. I'd throw lots of darts out and then take a look at the data. It doesn't matter if an author writes novels or chapter books. If the author you choose in your ad leads to readers, or most importantly, buyers, to click on your ad, then you'll start seeing success.

One of the main reasons why many of my BB ads are so successful is because I know the audiences that will look at my books. Realize that you want to grab readers to look at the ad, NOT cater to readers that you think match your books. An author that you think fits your writing might not work at all for bringing your ads clicks. One author I stumbled on yields me a click rate of 5%, sometimes 9%, but I stumbled after trying out multiple author, I didn't research all that much. And it was after running upwards of a hundred of ads with other authors.

So set ads at $5 and watch your click rate and impressions. You start BB ads with a high bid to get bites, and then work your way down. My ads average a click rate of about 3-4% which enables me a fairly good payback for full priced books. When I started BB ads they were at 0.5. If I don't get sales, I stop running the ad. Hope my advice helps, Jan. Good luck!

[Jan Hurst-Nicholson]

I don't know of any authors who write similar books to mine. My Leon Chameleon PI books feature anthropomorphic animals and I have likened them to Beatrix Potter or Kenneth Grahame, but I doubt if many readers search for those names. Categories will reach the most readers.
My books are chapter books, but BookBub only have 'children' and 'middle grade'. Their middle grade requires a minimum page count of 100 pages
and my books (trad published) are about 60 pages.

You might find ads that still work well with smaller size books (but it sucks that their editors are not accepting them for promos though ).

Ads are expensive, not only due to the ad cost themselves, but the testing needed. I wouldn't put too much thought over the authors on your BookBub ad tests. I'd throw lots of darts out and then take a look at the data. It doesn't matter if an author writes novels or chapter books. If the author you choose in your ad leads to readers, or most importantly, buyers, to click on your ad, then you'll start seeing success.

One of the main reasons why many of my BB ads are so successful is because I know the audiences that will look at my books. Realize that you want to grab readers to look at the ad, NOT cater to readers that you think match your books. An author that you think fits your writing might not work at all for bringing your ads clicks. One author I stumbled on yields me a click rate of 5%, sometimes 9%, but I stumbled after trying out multiple author, I didn't research all that much. And it was after running upwards of a hundred of ads with other authors.

So set ads at $5 and watch your click rate and impressions. You start BB ads with a high bid to get bites, and then work your way down. My ads average a click rate of about 3-4% which enables me a fairly good payback for full priced books. When I started BB ads they were at 0.5. If I don't get sales, I stop running the ad. Hope my advice helps, Jan. Good luck!

Thank you so much for the valuable advice.  It is very expensive to run an ad as the exchange rate is approx $1 = R20 so all recommendations are very much appreciated.

With regards to the BookBub ads and age categories that don't fit, I will try my next Leon ad with "A thrilling animal detective story for 7-12 yrs." Or something similar, and see if that helps. I've got one day left of my 5 day BookBub ad and I only have 2500 impressions and a measly 2 clicks that came on the first day - and that is for a free book Children's books are a difficult sell.

[Bill Hiatt]

Hmmm... I guess BookBub wouldn't offer any categories if it had no subscribers who were interested. But children's books are tough in general because that still seems to be a more print-oriented market. I suppose near the upper end, more of the kids are more likely to have a place to read ebooks.

The season may be working against you a little. Christmas shopping tends to be more oriented toward things you can wrap and put under the tree or stick in a stocking. I'm actually surprised that my December sales are actually shaping up to be higher than my November ones. But part of that is driven by an increase in paperback sales, which, for the first time in a long time, are actually beating ebook sales. In fact, in the early part of the month, paperback sales were beating KU as well, which has never happened before.

It seems as if children's book authors might benefit from more ways to sell paperbacks or hardbacks leading into the holidays.

[Jan Hurst-Nicholson]

Hmmm... I guess BookBub wouldn't offer any categories if it had no subscribers who were interested. But children's books are tough in general because that still seems to be a more print-oriented market. I suppose near the upper end, more of the kids are more likely to have a place to read ebooks.

The season may be working against you a little. Christmas shopping tends to be more oriented toward things you can wrap and put under the tree or stick in a stocking. I'm actually surprised that my December sales are actually shaping up to be higher than my November ones. But part of that is driven by an increase in paperback sales, which, for the first time in a long time, are actually beating ebook sales. In fact, in the early part of the month, paperback sales were beating KU as well, which has never happened before.

It seems as if children's book authors might benefit from more ways to sell paperbacks or hardbacks leading into the holidays.

My books are also available in print and I sometimes sell an ebook followed by a print edition  That is what I hoped would happen with my free ebook offer.

Glad to hear you are selling paperback copies. 

[Jan Hurst-Nicholson]

Something interesting happened overnight.

I had approx 3000 impressions and 3 clicks on my BookBub ad and saw 3 free downloads.

Woke up to find I had 93 downloads  . I didn't do any other advertising (apart from Facebook at the beginning of the freebie) and wondered where they came from.

Then I discovered a message on my website:
'Leon Chameleon Pi And The Case Of The Missing Canary Eggs' is highlighted today on eBookDaily.com and in the newsletter mailed to 23,000 subscribers.
I would greatly appreciate if you mention this promotion on social media and/or link to it on your Website. Each deal on eBookDaily has a dedicated Author Promotion Page with one-click links to promote on your Facebook page or Twitter feed:

Maybe eBookDaily is a better option for free books. They must have picked up Leon from Amazon (or BookBub). I will look into using them for my next free book (they only have one category for children  ).

[Bill Hiatt]

Interesting!

One of the tactics BookBub used to grow in the first place was picking up sale or free books, advertising them for free, and then sending a similar message to the author involved. Perhaps a similar tactic would work for BB's competitors.

[Jan Hurst-Nicholson]

Interesting!

One of the tactics BookBub used to grow in the first place was picking up sale or free books, advertising them for free, and then sending a similar message to the author involved. Perhaps a similar tactic would work for BB's competitors.

The tactic has brought them to my attention. 

I asked why they didn't have a category for humour/humor as I'd like to try But Can You Drink the Water?
They replied: Contemporary and Literary fiction is really "other fiction".  So now you know 

[Jan Hurst-Nicholson]

Just had a further reply from BookBub. I asked which of their categories I should use for the BookBub ad, and how would adding an author/s affect the impressions.

Hi, Jan,
 
Happy Monday and thanks for following back up here! This is a great question. In your case, I might suggest targeting both our Children's and Middle Grade categories, in order to generally reach those interested in books for younger readers. While these categories might not be perfect fits for your book, this targeting can help differentiate your ad audience from young adults and adults.
 
I'll also note that an author's audience on BookBub Ads is comprised of the users who've expressed explicit interest in that author on our site. This includes direct followers, as well as readers who've looked through their Author Profile and engaged with any of their titles or clicked on any of their features, etc., so targeting Beatrix Potter or Kenneth Grahame wouldn't limit your ad audience to the readers who've searched directly for those authors.
 
As for choosing relevant authors, one tip that we often find helpful as partners are deciding which specific authors to target is to look through the "Also Bought" section on your book's retailer sites, to get an idea of which authors' fanbases are likely to interact with your work. It's a great tool because you can be pretty sure that readers who are already fans of authors similar to you will be fans of yours, too! Additionally, by looking through our Ebook Deals page, you can gain a better sense of which BookBub authors you might share categories with. This post from our Partners Blog offers a more in-depth overview on selecting effective author targets, as well.
 
We really do appreciate your feedback here, as we're always looking for more ways to bring great books to as many readers as possible. That said, based on our testing, there isn't yet enough BookBub reader interest, engagement, and partner submission volume for ebooks intended for this age range for us to add another young readers category at this time. We consistently revisit the idea of adding categories, so while this isn't in the works for the immediate future, it's something we'll continue to keep our eye on in case there is a strong enough opportunity to expand into another young readers category down the line.
 
Of course, please feel free to reach back out if you have any more questions about setting up your ad!
 
It's hard to believe that readers are not looking for books for children between 6 - 12 yrs