Amazon is discounting my ebook because they put me in a promotion

[Marti Talbott]

Amazon is the one reducing the price, because they bought it by the case and want to get rid of the inventory, I guess. The paper book prices are more than 20% above the ebook price and I give them a 35% discount from Ingram. 

Edit - thank you for trying to help Marti. I'm just so fed up, I had a great day writing and now I want to quit entirely, again. Time to go to bed. 10:30 here.

Good night!

[Bill Hiatt]

This is depressing!

While it is true that Amazon requires the ebook price to be 20% lower than the paperback price, that policy shouldn't apply on paperbacks Amazon discounted itself, only to the list prices, just as you argued.

The level of incompetence involved here is scary. (I'm assuming it's not deliberate cheating on Amazon's part, but that doesn't absolve them from paying people correctly.)

[TimothyEllis]

It could be a function of Amazon employing more people to cope with supporting a huge increase in orders unexpectedly, and the ones now handling book issues haven't been trained properly.

[Bill Hiatt]

It could be a function of Amazon employing more people to cope with supporting a huge increase in orders unexpectedly, and the ones now handling book issues haven't been trained properly.

Has there been a huge increase in orders? If so, that might explain a little of this, but wouldn't that be more an issue with low-level responders. Notthatamanda seems to be dealing with people at a higher pay grade and still getting grief from them.

[notthatamanda]

Yes I was called by someone in Seattle, and she understood it and agreed with me. Now to be fair, I have no idea where Jenni is and if the "Leadership Team" she is part of, is where Valerie was taking it to, she told me she was going to take it up to her supervisor.

I don't know. Just annoying and depressing. They could do this to the other book of mine that they bought cases of. Of course, I'm selling so little these days it hardly matters anyway.

[notthatamanda]

Hello Amanda,

I can understand you being upset. I am sorry. I checked all previous correspondence and I see that the response that has been sent on May 1 was misunderstood from our end and I do apologize for all the miscommunication.

I completely understand that you never reduced the price of the paperback from your end but Amazon reduced it for the customers but the eBook price has been reduced based on the paperback.

However, as explained due to the reduction in the price of a paperback book price(which was Amazon promotion), the eBook list price was reduced automatically(since the digital price should be at least 20% lesser than the paperback price) and since you have chosen 70% royalty for your eBook we would pay you the royalties based on the list price.

Thanks for your kind understanding.

So basically to summarize - if you have paperbacks on Amazon, they can reduce the price to whatever they want and thereby reduce your ebooks as well. I wonder if they would have the balls to do this to the trades, but they probably have different agreements than us lowly indies do.

[Bill Hiatt]

Hello Amanda,

I can understand you being upset. I am sorry. I checked all previous correspondence and I see that the response that has been sent on May 1 was misunderstood from our end and I do apologize for all the miscommunication.

I completely understand that you never reduced the price of the paperback from your end but Amazon reduced it for the customers but the eBook price has been reduced based on the paperback.

However, as explained due to the reduction in the price of a paperback book price(which was Amazon promotion), the eBook list price was reduced automatically(since the digital price should be at least 20% lesser than the paperback price) and since you have chosen 70% royalty for your eBook we would pay you the royalties based on the list price.

Thanks for your kind understanding.

So basically to summarize - if you have paperbacks on Amazon, they can reduce the price to whatever they want and thereby reduce your ebooks as well. I wonder if they would have the balls to do this to the trades, but they probably have different agreements than us lowly indies do.

It might be worth reviewing all of Amazon's (purposely vague) documents to see if they ever actually say they can do something like this.

The two pieces are both accurate individually. Amazon can elect to discount a paperback if it chooses to do so. And it can require that ebooks be at least 20% lower than the paperbacks. However, I think the 20% language is predicated on the notion that the author is the one setting the price. If Amazon chooses to lower the paperback price, it should absolutely not be able to lower the ebook based on the 20% language. That should only apply to paperback pricing decisions made by you.

(And no, they don't treat trads that way. I've seen plenty of examples where the ebook is priced higher than the paperback.

[notthatamanda]

Thanks Bill. I will look into this when my emotional reserves restock a bit.

[Bill Hiatt]

I checked for you. The two relevant URLS are https://kdp.amazon.com/en_US/help/topic/G200634500 and https://kdp.amazon.com/en_US/help/topic/G201834330

I'm reproducing the relevant sections in case anyone has a bright idea. The issue is actually addressed. I've bolded the relevant part.

The price at which we sell your Digital Book may not be the same as your List Price. For instance, we might sell your Digital Book at a lower price to match a third party's price for a Digital or Physical edition of the book. Or, we might match Amazon's price for a Physical edition of the book.

4. Setting Your List Price
If you choose the 70% Royalty Option, you must set and adjust your List Price so that it is at least 20% below the list price on Amazon for any physical edition of the Digital Book.

A customer might buy your book at a discounted price that's lower than your list price due to promotions, but it won't affect your royalties.

At first, I thought I couldn't see any immediately obvious way to argue the point, but there is one. According to the second quote, the ebook list price must be at least 20% below the print list price. Here and elsewhere, list price is whatever you've set your book price to (as in the second quote). And the language in the third quote makes clear that discounted price and list price are not the same. In other words, the language only entitles Amazon to drop the ebook price if your list price on the paperback (the one you set) is not at least 20% higher than the ebook list price. Amazon is welcome to go ahead and discount the paperback as much as it wants, but it can only reduce the ebook price based on your paperback list price, not the discounted price.

At least, all of that would be true if Amazon was following its own rules. Maybe the person you're dealing with is rational enough to listen to this argument and realized that someone made a mistake.

A lesser argument, but maybe still worth throwing in, is that the spirit of the rules (as reflected by the third quote) is that Amazon can't penalize author royalties based on discount prices that Amazon imposes. True, the language refers to paperback discounts and royalties, but one could certainly argue that the same spirit should apply in this case (or that Amazon shouldn't discount a price to make it violate Amazon's own rules). Nowhere does Amazon suggest it can discount your paperback and reduce your ebook price as a result.

IANAL--but I sometimes wonder if I was one in a previous life.

[notthatamanda]

They are doing it again. Marked down the hardcover and then marked down the ebook. There is only one hardcover left in stock. If they order a case when that is gone I'm going to lose it big time. I should have done what Bill said and dug into the fine print of the agreement. I guess now I really should. Can't seem to sum up the energy for it though.

[Jeff Tanyard]

Is it possible to unpublish just the print version without unpublishing the ebook?  If it is, I'd be tempted to do that.

[notthatamanda]

I publish through Ingram. I don't think I *can tell them not to sell Amazon any more. And the book that they are trying to get rid of is still sitting in their stock anyway.  Thanks for trying to help.

*Edit - missed a word

[Jeff Tanyard]

Yeah, I don't know much about the print side.  It never seemed worth the hassle to me.

I hope you get it sorted out.  Again.   

[TimothyEllis]

Yeah, I don't know much about the print side.  It never seemed worth the hassle to me.

The more I hear of things like this happening, the more convinced I am not to do print.

[notthatamanda]

I probably would have been better off putting my time in learning how to do a mailing list and then, um, doing a mailing list.

[notthatamanda]

They are doing it again. Now trying to get rid of the two Large Print copies they have in stock so they deeply discounted them and discounted the ebook. It's so freaking annoying. No one made them buy a case of the darn things.

At the other place someone is reporting that their ebook is discounted just because. Their paperback is not. That's what made me look at mine again.  That is actually a whole lot scarier. Note to that author - I was told they would pay me the royalty for the full price and they changed their mind. Try to get it in writing and check your sales report carefully, not that it really matters. They'll just say, "no we were wrong, we aren't paying you the full royalty."

Modify - I finally went through the terms and conditions. We have no hand.

5.3.4 Customer Prices. To the extent not prohibited by applicable laws, we have sole and complete discretion to set the retail customer price at which your Books are sold through the Program. We are solely responsible for processing payments, payment collection, requests for refunds and related customer service, and will have sole ownership and control of all data obtained from customers and prospective customers in connection with the Program.

https://kdp-eu.amazon.com/agreement?token=eyJjbGllbnRJZCI6ImtpbmRsZV9kaXJlY3RfcHVibGlzaGluZyIsImRvY3VtZW50SWQiOiJrZHAiLCJjYW5jZWxVcmwiOiJodHRwczovL2tkcC5hbWF6b24uY29tIiwiY2xpZW50TG9jYWxlIjoiTkEiLCJkaXNwbGF5UGFyYW1zIjpudWxsfQ%7CeyJtYXRlcmlhbFNlcmlhbCI6MSwiaG1hYyI6IjNVTU9oejdYTENWY1dsMUZEWWQwYnRZN3FNR1FxOEJxVHpyaWhYS2dGVWM9IiwianNvbkhtYWMiOnRydWUsInR5cGUiOiJSRUFEX09OTFkiLCJhY2NlcHQiOmZhbHNlfQ&language=en_US

Does EU mean European Union?  I'm getting to this page from here:

https://kdp.amazon.com/en_US/help/topic/G200627430

Anyway, I think they have us by the proverbial...legally. I can't see getting back into AMS when I could be budgeting based on one list price and the price could end up lower without my realizing it.

I just don't know why they are bothering to mess with prices if they aren't matching paper books that have been discounted.

[Mark Gardner]

For Erika's children's book hardcover, they end up discounting it below my cost via Ingram, so I've been spreading the word, and I have a few author friends who buy them at the discount with their prime membership and list my address for delivery. (Since Amazon will only let you buy one when they're discounted.)

[notthatamanda]

I'm not understanding, or maybe I didn't explain it right. I didn't buy a case of my own books (not that there's anything wrong with that). Amazon bought my books by the case and is now discounting them to try to get them off the shelf, the literal, physical shelf in their warehouse.

It is a good idea if I ever need a bunch of my own books, though that doesn't seem likely. But I have friends with Prime who would help me out too. Thanks.

[Mark Gardner]

I'm not understanding, or maybe I didn't explain it right. I didn't buy a case of my own books (not that there's anything wrong with that). Amazon bought my books by the case and is now discounting them to try to get them off the shelf, the literal, physical shelf in their warehouse.

It is a good idea if I ever need a bunch of my own books, though that doesn't seem likely. But I have friends with Prime who would help me out too. Thanks.

Yep, mine too. I think they want to get them out of the warehouse, and they discount it. Then with all my friends buying them, it seems to trigger them buying another case. Every 6-9 months this happens.

It's especially helpful since my per-unit cost from Ingram is ~$9, and Amazon will discount it down to ~$6. If I factor in Ingram's predatory shipping and handling costs, my per-unit pricing as almost $11, so paying my friends $6 and no shipping really fixes my profit margin.

Of course, I haven't done a single event in 2020 due to pretty much everyhing being cancelled.

[alhawke]

The price matching Amazon thing is super annoying. Good luck, Amanda, and I hope you get this straightened out.

Please allow me a slight tangent: On a separate price matching issue, I finally got one my book's price changed without price matching on Amazon after a promo; how did I do it? I changed the price on all wide books and waited 24hrs. Waiting a day seems to be the only way that Amazon won't keep the price at promo price. If I don't wait a day, Amazon will freeze the book at the promo price for upwards of 7-10 days.

Back to paperbacks: Has anybody out there ever published with Barnes and Noble paperback directly?? I only sell on B&N and Amazon anyway. With the headaches we're going through with Ingram, I'm wondering if this is an option. There still may be price matching, but it won't be with some small book retailer.

[notthatamanda]

For promos I always waited until the prices got back up elsewhere, and I could verify it, well as best as I could anyway, with the major platforms on D2D, before even changing the price on Amazon.

Unfortunately, there is nothing to straighten out. They have told me they will set the paper book price (It's actually hardcover, large print this time) to whatever they want and discount accordingly. Since it is large print I would buy the 2 available and donate to the senior center but they aren't open for their library or accepting donations right now. I will just take the time to glare angrily at it every day.

Mark - thanks for clarifying. I could order them just to get the free shipping if I need to but I am ordering everything from Walmart or Target or elsewhere whenever I can.

[Joe Vasicek]

So if you publish through Ingram Spark, Amazon can buy a bunch of physical copies, and then when they do a deep discount on the print version, they drop the price of the ebook as well? Seems like that's a reason to only do print through KDP Paperback, and to never give Amazon any exclusivity over your ebooks ever. Ever.

[notthatamanda]

What you say makes sense but I pay for formatting since I was never able to get over that hurdle and I'm not sure if what works for Ingram would work for KDP.  This career is just death by a thousand paper cuts sometimes.

I don't think they are intentionally going after me. Somehow I triggered the algos to buy a case, if they hadn't bought a case when I released the paperback on Ingram this wouldn't have happened. And then they bought a case of the large print (large print was just a bad idea, so sad it didn't work out). The crazy thing about them buying the case of this book is it was initially published in 2014 and I didn't do the Ingram paperback until 2019. Why would they want a case of those?

[notthatamanda]

Bloody bleeping #)*($)(#.  They're marking my ebook down again and the paper copies are still all at full price.