Author Topic: No more returns for Amazon readers?  (Read 2779 times)

Cobbah

No more returns for Amazon readers?
« on: September 23, 2022, 04:27:41 PM »
I just got this update from the Society of Authors

"Amazon’s returns policy for ebooks currently allows readers to receive a full refund for up to 14 days, even if they have read the full work. The use of this refund loophole has been encouraged by users on the social media platform TikTok, with videos on how to return books being viewed over 17 million times."

Amazon has now agreed that "...we will de-activate self-service returns for any book read past 10%, adding substantial friction to the process.’"

About bloody time is all I have to say on that...  :clap:
 

TimothyEllis

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Re: No more returns for Amazon readers?
« Reply #1 on: September 23, 2022, 07:58:18 PM »
How are they supposed to know that?

They can tell when someone downloads the sample, then buys, or at least infer they read the 10%.

But buying is not KU. Unless what they did to KU to track pages accurately is also already there in normal book reading.

I'm all for it, but to my mind, restricting the refund to 6 hours after purchase would have been a damn sight easier to do than 10% reading.

Refunds on eBooks are not that big a deal for me.

I'll cheer when the same thing flows into audiobooks. No refund after listening to 10% of an audiobook, or after 6 hours from download and it will change audiobook incomes significantly.

But, I guess they have no way of telling if audiobooks are even listened to at all, let alone how much has been.

I think it's too soon to start cheering. Let's wait and see if it happens, and how it happens, before we get enthusiastic about it.

*starts looking for a dropping shoe*
Genres: Space Opera/Fantasy/Cyberpunk, with elements of LitRPG and GameLit, with a touch of the Supernatural. Also Spiritual and Games.



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notthatamanda

Re: No more returns for Amazon readers?
« Reply #2 on: September 23, 2022, 09:55:18 PM »
Is the change supposed to take effect soon? I finally got an international bookbub on my contemporary romance trilogy and the returns on books 2 and 3 were astronomical. After that I pretty much gave up. I been considering 5 bucks on Bknights, but I've been flipflopping on that for a couple of months now.
 

Cobbah

Re: No more returns for Amazon readers?
« Reply #3 on: September 23, 2022, 10:32:42 PM »
I only get a handful of returns a year on Amazon. Fewer on the other sites so I'm not 'excited' by it, but nonetheless I resent customer-oriented bias that penalises the seller. As for whether Amazon knows if you're reading a page, which font your using and whether your eyes glaze over at too much detail in wordy novels, I suspect they do all of that. It's just as well they don't have cameras and microphones in their Kindles, or I'd be back to paper books.
 

notthatamanda

Re: No more returns for Amazon readers?
« Reply #4 on: September 23, 2022, 10:55:27 PM »
I also only get a handful of returns a year on Amazon, probably not even that. Until that international book bub. Over a third of books 2 and 3 returned. Way more than I had in the previous 6 years of publishing combined. I stopped applying for Bookbubs after that. A contemporary romance deal on Bookbub for the US is very expensive and though I thought I might have a better chance of getting accepted after the international one, when I did the numbers I was worried I'd lose money on it if the returns were that high. I don't remember the mathematical details, but the point of a first in series free book is to sell the other books in the series. If people just return them there is no point in spending money on promoting the free book.

Seeing the returns skyrocket like was pretty shocking. Most of my one-star reviews are people complaining I'm greedy giving away book 1 and expecting to get paid for books 2 and 3. They feel entitled to the books and if I won't give them away they'll just steal them and Amazon has been letting them get away with it.

I don't know if the 10% rule is really possible, or if they really will enforce it.
 

TimothyEllis

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Re: No more returns for Amazon readers?
« Reply #5 on: September 23, 2022, 11:03:05 PM »
Most of my one-star reviews are people complaining I'm greedy giving away book 1 and expecting to get paid for books 2 and 3. They feel entitled to the books and if I won't give them away they'll just steal them and Amazon has been letting them get away with it.

If that's happening, you're marketing to the wrong people.

Happening off a BB, just suggests that BB is no longer about real readers, but those looking for free and heavily discounted books.

And those are the wrong people to be targeting. imo.

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LilyBLily

Re: No more returns for Amazon readers?
« Reply #6 on: September 23, 2022, 11:41:40 PM »
I noticed that I got seven returns on my recent 99-cent international BookBub, as compared to one return the previous month on a full-price book. Because my discounted women's fiction title was over 100k, the delivery cost puts me in negative numbers for each of those seven returns. Sure, it's only a few cents, but really! 

Someone so cheap they'd return a 99-cent book is never going to be my ideal reader. I'll be very happy if Amazon actually does put a stop to this nonsense.
 

notthatamanda

Re: No more returns for Amazon readers?
« Reply #7 on: September 23, 2022, 11:57:04 PM »
I've already proven that I'm terrible at marketing so no surprise there.

I wouldn't have sold any books without giving the first one away for free, and that means I also wouldn't have my 4 and 5 star reviews on the series. It used to be a viable strategy. I would have one or two people a year return books 2 and 3. They obviously read them, because why buy book 3 if you didn't read book 2.

I'm curious about the return policy because it matters for me going forward with if/how I will market.

I'll just add it to the list of things to hate TikTok for. Already had sleepy chicken on the list for this week.
 

notthatamanda

Re: No more returns for Amazon readers?
« Reply #8 on: September 24, 2022, 12:10:17 AM »
I noticed that I got seven returns on my recent 99-cent international BookBub, as compared to one return the previous month on a full-price book. Because my discounted women's fiction title was over 100k, the delivery cost puts me in negative numbers for each of those seven returns. Sure, it's only a few cents, but really! 

Someone so cheap they'd return a 99-cent book is never going to be my ideal reader. I'll be very happy if Amazon actually does put a stop to this nonsense.
100K what? Did you sell 100K books?
 

TimothyEllis

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Re: No more returns for Amazon readers?
« Reply #9 on: September 24, 2022, 12:16:00 AM »
I noticed that I got seven returns on my recent 99-cent international BookBub, as compared to one return the previous month on a full-price book. Because my discounted women's fiction title was over 100k, the delivery cost puts me in negative numbers for each of those seven returns. Sure, it's only a few cents, but really! 

Someone so cheap they'd return a 99-cent book is never going to be my ideal reader. I'll be very happy if Amazon actually does put a stop to this nonsense.
100K what? Did you sell 100K books?

100k words long, hence higher delivery cost.
Genres: Space Opera/Fantasy/Cyberpunk, with elements of LitRPG and GameLit, with a touch of the Supernatural. Also Spiritual and Games.



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notthatamanda

Re: No more returns for Amazon readers?
« Reply #10 on: September 24, 2022, 01:04:44 AM »
Ah, okay. I was very excited for you for a minute.
 

Cobbah

Re: No more returns for Amazon readers?
« Reply #11 on: September 24, 2022, 01:05:02 AM »

Happening off a BB, just suggests that BB is no longer about real readers, but those looking for free and heavily discounted books.

And those are the wrong people to be targeting. imo.

I disagree with this. I've not done so well this year on BB, but I've had a quiet year generally. However, BB is fabulous for on-selling of series and other books. I think inflation, interest rates the war (don't mention the War!) in Europe and the death of QEII have all contributed to a mixed market in 2023. Hard to know what that will do medium term. And... you will always get 'that' reader who will want to buck the system for free. If we all lose those people, then I'm going to be happy - even on half a dozen books a year.
 

Gerri Attrick

Re: No more returns for Amazon readers?
« Reply #12 on: September 24, 2022, 01:16:13 AM »
More info here : https://societyofauthors.org/News/News/2022/September/Amazon-reforms-ebook-policies-in-response-to-union?fbclid=IwAR3Mu01YDJSx0qVSNp1acL664wWRzk_DPSg8Vx4ehRSv22IdpCUmtp9qFpw

Though wtf "reprioritised existing product roadmaps" means is anyone's guess. Marketing speak on acid by the sound of it.
 
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Hopscotch

Re: No more returns for Amazon readers?
« Reply #13 on: September 24, 2022, 03:06:29 AM »
I know Amazon regards books as just another commodity to sell.  But a book isn't like a pair of socks returnable w/minimal reason why.  Good socks may make me feel warm, cozy and right w/the world but books offer dreams and understanding of other human beings.  Amazon should limit its returns program for ebooks/ppbk/audio only for those poorly manufactured.
   
Someone so cheap they'd return a 99-cent book is never going to be my ideal reader.

Pardon, but no indie book ought to be priced at 99 cents.  We should stop underpricing to stop buyers undervaluing indie books.  I'd stick a "5" or a "10" in front of that ".99."
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LilyBLily

Re: No more returns for Amazon readers?
« Reply #14 on: September 24, 2022, 03:35:58 AM »
Ah, okay. I was very excited for you for a minute.

I wish!

grint
 

LilyBLily

Re: No more returns for Amazon readers?
« Reply #15 on: September 24, 2022, 03:48:44 AM »
I know Amazon regards books as just another commodity to sell.  But a book isn't like a pair of socks returnable w/minimal reason why.  Good socks may make me feel warm, cozy and right w/the world but books offer dreams and understanding of other human beings.  Amazon should limit its returns program for ebooks/ppbk/audio only for those poorly manufactured.
   
Someone so cheap they'd return a 99-cent book is never going to be my ideal reader.

Pardon, but no indie book ought to be priced at 99 cents.  We should stop underpricing to stop buyers undervaluing indie books.  I'd stick a "5" or a "10" in front of that ".99."

It was a BookBub sale. My women's fiction titles are regularly priced at $6.99, which has been dead center between how indies tend to price in the subgenre (too low, IMO) and how trad pubs do. Maybe I should raise the prices to $7.99, since I recently saw a trad pub women's fiction novel priced at $14.99 for the ebook. Most of my other ebooks are at $3.99 and $4.99.

The point of pricing at 99 cents temporarily is to find new fans and get them over the hump of paying something like real money to try an author new to them. I think it's a valid strategy. I've only done free very rarely and only for books in KU where I'd hope to make the cost back in page reads. My most recent experiment with doing that in western romance has actually paid off. Lots of read-through to the other books in the series.

When I was a regular Amazon ads user, the first book in the western series was priced a dollar less than the others, but not discounted as such. The cost of the ads, though, certainly cut out any profit on sales of that title. The ads were only justified because the first book sold the series. If you think about it, running ads so expensive there is no hope of a profit and setting a book to free and buying ads to tell people about it are simply two sides of the same coin.

 
 

notthatamanda

Re: No more returns for Amazon readers?
« Reply #16 on: September 24, 2022, 04:27:12 AM »

Happening off a BB, just suggests that BB is no longer about real readers, but those looking for free and heavily discounted books.

And those are the wrong people to be targeting. imo.

I disagree with this. I've not done so well this year on BB, but I've had a quiet year generally. However, BB is fabulous for on-selling of series and other books. I think inflation, interest rates the war (don't mention the War!) in Europe and the death of QEII have all contributed to a mixed market in 2023. Hard to know what that will do medium term. And... you will always get 'that' reader who will want to buck the system for free. If we all lose those people, then I'm going to be happy - even on half a dozen books a year.
None of those reasons apply to my Bookbub returns as it was in the fall of 2021. Bookbub WAS fabulous for on-selling of my books 2 and 3, but then 1/3 + of the people returned them. That was not fabulous and I am glad for the idea that Amazon is going to crack down on that, even if I am dubious that it will actually be accomplished.
 

LilyBLily

Re: No more returns for Amazon readers?
« Reply #17 on: September 24, 2022, 09:22:03 AM »
Amazon hasn't made a date public yet, right? Maybe it wants to give the chiselers one last grace period. Jerks.
 

TimothyEllis

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Re: No more returns for Amazon readers?
« Reply #18 on: September 24, 2022, 12:05:49 PM »
Amazon hasn't made a date public yet, right? Maybe it wants to give the chiselers one last grace period. Jerks.

More likely the left had said they'd do it, but the right hand hasn't a clue how to yet.
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littleauthor

Re: No more returns for Amazon readers?
« Reply #19 on: September 24, 2022, 10:22:05 PM »
I saw a sharp increase in returns this year after I started using Amazon ads. I'm such a prawn, I had no visibility before that. I had to pause the ads on the romances (the only genre this was happening to). I couldn't afford to be seen! I'm really pleased about this and it's great that they acknowledged indie authors as the ones who brought it to their attention.
 
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notthatamanda

Re: No more returns for Amazon readers?
« Reply #20 on: September 24, 2022, 11:21:27 PM »
I saw a sharp increase in returns this year after I started using Amazon ads. I'm such a prawn, I had no visibility before that. I had to pause the ads on the romances (the only genre this was happening to). I couldn't afford to be seen! I'm really pleased about this and it's great that they acknowledged indie authors as the ones who brought it to their attention.
 

Yeesh, I'm glad I didn't do any ads this year.
 

She-la-te-da

Re: No more returns for Amazon readers?
« Reply #21 on: September 29, 2022, 05:30:14 AM »
I thought someone said by the end of the year, and that they've done something about audio book returns as well. Could have been someone misreading the articles (I haven't read any of them).
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TimothyEllis

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Re: No more returns for Amazon readers?
« Reply #22 on: September 29, 2022, 11:55:52 AM »
and that they've done something about audio book returns as well.

They chopped audio returns back to a week.

Didn't do a damned thing about the problem though.

As long as the return period is longer than the time it takes to read/listen to the whole book, the problem remains.
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Cobbah

Re: No more returns for Amazon readers?
« Reply #23 on: September 29, 2022, 07:05:13 PM »
and that they've done something about audio book returns as well.

They chopped audio returns back to a week.

Didn't do a damned thing about the problem though.

As long as the return period is longer than the time it takes to read/listen to the whole book, the problem remains.

We all want a perfect world. Yours, mine, theirs - they're all different  :icon_eek:
 

LilyBLily

Re: No more returns for Amazon readers?
« Reply #24 on: September 29, 2022, 11:09:59 PM »
Chop the return time to three days and the glut of returns isn't likely in any format.

Years ago, my FIL recounted his shock on seeing Walmart (or K-Mart, can't remember which) take back a pair of work gloves that the customer had worn out. The gloves were falling apart from hard use, and yet the person had the gall to return them. They were accepted without demur. Such is the effort to please customers and keep them coming back.

On the book front, some TikTokker will come up with a pat phrase to justify the return, and you can be sure the mindless herds of chiselers will copy that phrase and keep on returning books and audiobooks. It doesn't say a lot for the future of our society that so many people who read books are without honor. I always had the thought that book readers were a cut above. Apparently not.
 

writeway

Re: No more returns for Amazon readers?
« Reply #25 on: September 30, 2022, 01:51:17 AM »
Put me in the skeptical camp. Ever since they've been "celebrating" this on Facebook I've been rolling my eyes because I know how Amazon is when it claims it's going to take action. Fake reviews? Still tons there. KU Scammers? Still tons there. People miscategorizing books and every other unscrupulous thing? Still there. So I am not one to take what someone says about Amazon as gospel. I wanna see the action.

I also am not convinced this will solve the problem like some hope. My feeling is that Amazon will easily allow readers to return if they just write in. Those low-level reps will probably not even know what the return policy is. I've written reps many times to return products through the years and never once got pushback. Many times I didn't even have to send the defective item back to get my refund. I doubt they will be more diligent with ebook returns. Do we really believe Amazon will actually have someone dedicated to checking if these returns are genuine? Please.

I think a lot of authors who bank on this to stop returns will be sorely disappointed. Another thing, this 10% thing will affect books differently depending on length. For example, if a book is a shorter story then 10% might be the whole darn book. And then it comes down to placement. Front matter and stuff matters now. Are we going to see some authors gaming so they won't get returns and stuffing their books with unnecessary front matter so that by the time the reader gets to 10% they can't return? I don't agree with authors gaming and I don't agree with readers wrongfully returning but we know people will take advantage no matter what.

As Timothy said, how will Amazon know how much you read from a book, not in KU? And KU books are rarely affected by returns because the majority of readers of KU books borrow. Whether I was KU or wide I never got tons of returns. I probably get 1-2 returns a month if that. That's across 100+ books. I've heard probably 10-20 authors saying this return has affected them. Mostly, authors say it hasn't. I'd say about 80% of authors I've seen on social media say they weren't hit by this. So, I always questioned how big a problem this is. I think the petition became popular because people have always wanted this return thing changed but this "explosion of returns" has been blown out-of-proportion IMO. It's like something caught on on TikTok and affected a percentage of authors but they were so vocal (understandable) that people thought this was some mass problem every author was having. Most of the authors talking about this and many who signed the petition admit they haven't seen the level of returns the ones claiming they were hit by TikTok was.

This also only seemed to affect wide authors. Because again, most KU readers are borrowers anyway. I think some readers have always bought and returned wide books because they never wanted to pay for them in the beginning. That practice has always been there. Some wide authors claimed they were getting killed by returns. I can't imagine getting that many returns. Some of it just seemed unreal to me that many authors are getting thousands of returns in 3-4 months and Amazon does nothing. I know Amazon doesn't lose money but at some point, it becomes bad for business to let readers do this.

So, I think this affected a small group who were on TikTok, they spread it around to the author community and everyone wanted to support each other so it blew up. Good that it brought attention again to Amazon's review system but I'm not convinced this will do much in the long run. I think authors are celebrating prematurely. Wait and see this rolled out and see how Amazon handles it then we'll see if anything changes.

But the big question is how the heck is Amazon going to know how much you read? If they are monitoring Kindles or Kindle apps, that's not accurate data and tech-savy readers will know how to trip that up. I won't be shocked if someone comes out with some device where you can stop Amazon tracking your reading just because of this. KU, yeah, I can see Amazon knowing how much in the program but how the heck will they know how much you've read from a wide book?

So many question marks and I'm still rolling my eyes.  :shrug
« Last Edit: September 30, 2022, 01:58:09 AM by writeway »
 

writeway

Re: No more returns for Amazon readers?
« Reply #26 on: September 30, 2022, 01:54:52 AM »
I am sure many readers won't be happy if this does affect things. Authors often can't win for losing. I wouldn't be shocked if this move pushed more readers into KU. Do you think it would? The main reason some abuse returns is that they claim ebook prices are too high. Sure, most likely an excuse because they don't wanna pay for anything but it's telling how quiet readers are about this in groups, etc. Some were acting as they cared about returns hurting authors now everyone is silent. I think some were pretending to care so they didn't look bad and now if things really change, they didn't want that. I wouldn't be surprised (if this is enacted well) if some readers ditch wide books and just go into KU. That's the first thing I thought about.

Some wide authors were hurting from the returns but now I wonder if the policy change will drive more readers away from wide books if they don't wanna pay.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2022, 02:01:58 AM by writeway »
 

TimothyEllis

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Re: No more returns for Amazon readers?
« Reply #27 on: September 30, 2022, 02:04:47 AM »
KU, yeah, I can see Amazon knowing how much in the program but how the heck will they know how much you've read from a wide book?

Why are you talking about wide books?

Amazon only has control of their own books. And the automatic return feature is only on eBooks.

The question is basically did Amazon embed in the Kindle and Kindle App code the ability to see where in the book a reader stopped, when they finally figured out how to do it in KU? Or is it just implemented in KU?

Remember, original with KU2, Amazon were clueless as to actual pages being read, and it was well over a year later before they figured out how to do it after all the scamming happened. But did they implement it just for KU? Or Kindle generally?

I doubt it myself.

If they had the stats on where each book regularly gets read to, that information would be invaluable for authors. They don't even give it out to KU authors.

My guess is, by agreeing to limiting returns to less than 10% read, they will first need to build the whole mechanism to detect that, and then update every device and app.

And that will take them a lot of time to do, imo.
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writeway

Re: No more returns for Amazon readers?
« Reply #28 on: October 03, 2022, 09:45:20 AM »
When I say "wide" I mean books on Amazon but not in KU. I am saying how in the heck will Amazon be able to tell how much of an Amazon non-KU book is being read if the book is not in KU. It was wide authors complaining because no one was returning KU books. This whole thing started because wide authors claimed they were getting a bunch of returns from TikTok on Amazon and supposedly they were losing "thousands" some claimed.

But again, I agree and doubt this is going to work or be anything Amazon cares about. I doubt this is an emergency to them. Also, I just bought an ebook the other day, and nowhere does it say I can't return it during a certain time. Just saying because some woman on FB said when she recently bought a book her return window was very short so she figured they were rolling out these changes now. Maybe, maybe not but all I know is I see no indication so far that nothing's changed where returns are concerned.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2022, 09:50:28 AM by writeway »
 

alhawke

Re: No more returns for Amazon readers?
« Reply #29 on: October 04, 2022, 12:24:56 AM »
And what happens when a reader tries to return your book that they're trying to pilfer and Amazon says no? All it's going to take is a call to their customer service dept and, voila, another series returned. Right?

Here's a better proposal that authors should fight for--though I doubt it'll go anywhere. Allow NO returns over author royalties. Once the purchase is made, the author makes their royalty. Done. Amazon, or any of our retailers, can deal with the returns on their own. They can handle the loss in revenue, we can't.
 

Bill Hiatt

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Re: No more returns for Amazon readers?
« Reply #30 on: October 04, 2022, 11:36:06 PM »
If only the world worked that way!

As with most things Amazon, we won't really know how this system works until the new system has been operating for a while. The fact that Amazon has even acknowledged the problem is something I wasn't expecting.

Personally, I have few returns, seldom more than one a month. But I can see how certain situations (like an overlap between my readers and TikTok viewers), could make the issue. (Fun fact: TikTok challenges were responsible for an increase in destruction of school property.)

We do need to keep in mind that a generous return policy is probably one factor motivating readers to give unfamiliar authors (AKA most of us) a try in the first place. The more restrictive the policy, the more leery legitimate readers may become about trying new things.

With regard to the idea of setting a time period for returns, remember that purchasers have different habits. I wouldn't return a book unless I thought it was gravely misadvertised, an obvious scam, or something like that. But I do sometimes buy things I intend to read later. I have at least some readers who do the same. At least, I'm guessing the people who buy all nine books in one of my series are not planning to necessarily read all of them within six days. I've noticed an uptick in people buying a whole series (or a whole series minus the first book, which they presumably read first to see if they liked the series). Denying returns after a certain percentage is read (assuming Amazon can actually do that). Won't affect the whole-series buying practice.  Setting a time limit, however, might. 


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TimothyEllis

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Re: No more returns for Amazon readers?
« Reply #31 on: October 04, 2022, 11:48:30 PM »
We do need to keep in mind that a generous return policy is probably one factor motivating readers to give unfamiliar authors (AKA most of us) a try in the first place. The more restrictive the policy, the more leery legitimate readers may become about trying new things.

That's what the sample is supposed to be for.

Quote
With regard to the idea of setting a time period for returns, remember that purchasers have different habits. I wouldn't return a book unless I thought it was gravely misadvertised, an obvious scam, or something like that. But I do sometimes buy things I intend to read later. I have at least some readers who do the same. At least, I'm guessing the people who buy all nine books in one of my series are not planning to necessarily read all of them within six days. I've noticed an uptick in people buying a whole series (or a whole series minus the first book, which they presumably read first to see if they liked the series). Denying returns after a certain percentage is read (assuming Amazon can actually do that). Won't affect the whole-series buying practice.  Setting a time limit, however, might.

The only reason I've returned a book was I accidentally hit the 1 click buy button instead of the download sample button, and then not liked the book. Only happened a few times, as it's something you learn to be careful of.

But as far as I'm concerned, that's the only genuine reason for returns. If someone doesn't read the sample first, and then doesn't like the book, that should be tough. Like every other product you buy online. You do your due diligence before you buy. But that's just me. I'm not a member of the return everything generations.
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LilyBLily

Re: No more returns for Amazon readers?
« Reply #32 on: October 05, 2022, 12:33:44 AM »
A lot of years ago, I surprised some people at a mid-Manhattan bookstore by wanting to return a mass market paperback I had read but simply did not like. Because I would read paperbacks without cracking their spines or otherwise damaging them, I was allowed to return the book. But that was unusual; I and most people at the time thought a book could only be returned if it was defective. Which did occasionally happen.

The problem with the Look Inside samples is that quite often the sample is pretty good but then the full book does not live up to the opening chapters. I wouldn't return a book for that reason, but I do make note of the author's name and put the author on my "Do Not Buy" list. I have to do that because I'm so attracted to beautiful cover art that I get drawn in despite myself.   
 

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Re: No more returns for Amazon readers?
« Reply #33 on: October 05, 2022, 12:49:46 AM »
The problem with the Look Inside samples is that quite often the sample is pretty good but then the full book does not live up to the opening chapters. I wouldn't return a book for that reason, but I do make note of the author's name and put the author on my "Do Not Buy" list. I have to do that because I'm so attracted to beautiful cover art that I get drawn in despite myself.

It's rare for me to not finish a book once I get past the sample.

It's only happened a few times, and I accept that as the risk of buying, because it would have been the same with paperbacks off a store shelf as well.
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elleoco

Re: No more returns for Amazon readers?
« Reply #34 on: October 05, 2022, 01:55:21 AM »
Yes, as I read this thread, I was thinking, "That's what the sample and Look Inside are for."

I'm one of the world's voracious readers. I probably return only 3 or 4 books a year, and I do it when something in a book makes me mad -- getting preachy about something beyond toleration level, plot or characters descending into gross stupidity, etc. Which is to say I'm almost always beyond 10% when I decide to return, but if I no longer can do that, it won't affect me that much.

The only books I consider overpriced are traditional publisher offerings, and almost all of those are available through the library, so I seldom pay for them (except through taxes, of course).

Even if shutting down deliberate stealing isn't 100% effective, I'm all for any effort even though my own books haven't been affected -- yet.

cecilia_writer

Re: No more returns for Amazon readers?
« Reply #35 on: October 05, 2022, 02:26:23 AM »
I've never intentionally returned a book but I did accidentally return one while trying to remove from my device, by pressing the wrong button. Generally I consider it my own fault if I buy a book I hate so much that I don't want to read it as I should have at least read the Look Inside.
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writeway

Re: No more returns for Amazon readers?
« Reply #36 on: October 09, 2022, 02:33:35 PM »
I see the return window is a week now, which is not that great of improvement to me. Do you (general you) realize how many books some people can read in a week? I thought the Authors Guild got it down to a few days or something? I bought a book the other day and the return window was a week. What was it before? Serial returners go through a series within a few days.  :icon_rolleyes:
 

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Re: No more returns for Amazon readers?
« Reply #37 on: October 09, 2022, 07:14:14 PM »
I see the return window is a week now, which is not that great of improvement to me. Do you (general you) realize how many books some people can read in a week? I thought the Authors Guild got it down to a few days or something? I bought a book the other day and the return window was a week. What was it before? Serial returners go through a series within a few days.  :icon_rolleyes:

Maybe that changed at the same time it did on Audible.

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Bill Hiatt

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Re: No more returns for Amazon readers?
« Reply #38 on: October 09, 2022, 11:40:13 PM »
You know, there's a difference between what people should do and what people actually do. Yes, I suppose people should always read the Look Inside, particularly with unfamiliar authors, but they don't always. (Come to think of it, I don't always, either.)

On the other hand, back in the days when brick and mortar was the only option, did any of us actually stand there and read the first 10% of the book in the store? I read the blurb on the back and sometimes thumbed through it, but I never read 10% while standing there. Honestly, I would have been worried the store clerks would look at me like the kind of person who eats something while shopping, finishes it off, and then doesn't pay for it. (Fun fact: one of the Borders Stores I used to go to back in the old days when such places existed was loaded with people who did exactly that. They parked in one of the comfortable chairs scattered around the store or even, amazingly, in the cafe inside the store, and read whole books. I even saw people taking notes, like Borders was their research library. So I guess the clerks wouldn't have cared if I read 10% after all. Of course, then Borders went bankrupt...)

But let's think for a minute about another factor in shopping--time. Let's say you are a voracious reader who buys lots of books, but you aren't a speed reader. Particularly if you're looking at longer books, would you actually read the whole first 10% of every book you're considering? That could easily be fifty pages a book or even more. Put another way, how many people reserve a whole day to shop for books on Amazon? I don't know anyone who does that.

Yes, in an ideal world, people would be more careful about what they buy, but the time factor alone makes that difficult to achieve in real life.

I think we might actually be better off if Amazon clamped down more on serial returners. We know Amazon has from time to time, but I'm not sure how regular it is. That might be the most effective discouragement of people reading and returning (otherwise known as free KU).


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LilyBLily

Re: No more returns for Amazon readers?
« Reply #39 on: October 10, 2022, 12:31:02 AM »
A week won't circumvent a very determined serial returner, but as with so many other things in life, entropy will do the rest of the job.

The majority of people who have played this game will probably end up just a little too lazy to do it successfully all the time, and with each fail, they'll care less. That's human nature.

At the very least, people who buy a lot of books at once with the plan to read them all and return them will buy fewer at one time to err on the safe side. Eventually, they'll tire of the game, because how many alerts can you place on your phone to return Book X by Date Z? Most people don't want constant reminders that "Time is running out!"; they create stress.

A voracious reader certainly can read at least 10-20 books in a week. Short ones. That's two each weekday--assuming they are employed--and five per weekend day. I have done that. One of the worst aspects of the isolation the pandemic created was a return to such habits because there was nowhere to go and no one to see.     
 

elleoco

Re: No more returns for Amazon readers?
« Reply #40 on: October 10, 2022, 12:08:03 PM »
On the other hand, back in the days when brick and mortar was the only option, did any of us actually stand there and read the first 10% of the book in the store?
No, but in bookstores, I'd read the first page or two, then flip to a couple random places in the middle and read a few paragraphs and always made sure some was dialog. Then I'd read the last couple of pages (started doing that after Gone With the Wind). None of that's available any more, which is why a lot of us rarely try unfamiliar authors. I don't unless they're in KU or I can get them from the library, and the library pretty much means traditionally published books.

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Re: No more returns for Amazon readers?
« Reply #41 on: October 10, 2022, 12:12:50 PM »
No, but in bookstores, I'd read the first page or two, then flip to a couple random places in the middle and read a few paragraphs and always made sure some was dialog. Then I'd read the last couple of pages

That's what I used to do.

I haven't done that since I discovered the Kindle. Hardly been back to a bookstore since then.
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elleoco

Re: No more returns for Amazon readers?
« Reply #42 on: October 10, 2022, 12:15:21 PM »
Maybe some of the cheaters are like me in one regard -- I download a book and read it, and it's unusual that doesn't happen within 24 hours. Then I download another, etc. So someone who reads like that and willing to bother could return one after another. Considering how far Amazon has its nose in customers' business, you'd think they could detect people who returned x number of books one after another and stop that kind of thing.

Then again their vaunted algorithms constantly recommend books to me by authors I've looked at once and never bought or KU'd a book from, my own books, books I actually bought from Amazon, etc.

Cobbah

Re: No more returns for Amazon readers?
« Reply #43 on: October 10, 2022, 04:27:47 PM »
In today's society, we make it far too acceptable (and easy) to be dishonest in little ways that without thought are more damaging than they seem on the surface. Trivialising crime (even petty crime) reduces honesty and integrity to words of little meaning. We should look at people who return books without paying for them in that light. It is theft and theft 'should' have consequences. Banning them from Amazon wouldn't harm Amazon's bottom line, but would improve their image. It would also make readers more aware of the value of the book in their hand (be it electronic or paper). Then again, authors often don't help themselves with so much free stuff offered and KU giving the reader the impression that they can read everything on the cheap (which of course they can). It's just the way the system works (change the system).
 

LilyBLily

Re: No more returns for Amazon readers?
« Reply #44 on: October 10, 2022, 10:02:16 PM »
Chiselers, my father used to call people like that. In the online city that is the internet, they feel anonymous and so it's safe to cheat when there are no consequences.

I haven't heard that any of the jerks on BookTok have recanted and taken back their criminal advice, have you?
 

Cobbah

Re: No more returns for Amazon readers?
« Reply #45 on: October 11, 2022, 01:14:59 AM »
Chiselers

I haven't heard that word in a long few years.  :icon_lol2: