Author Topic: What Amazon Needs To Change  (Read 2901 times)

Bill Hiatt

  • Trilogy unlocked
  • *****
  • Posts: 3839
  • Thanked: 1376 times
  • Gender: Male
  • Tickling the imagination one book at a time
    • Bill Hiatt's Author Website
What Amazon Needs To Change
« on: October 03, 2023, 12:01:37 AM »
Amazon must make quite a bit of money from indie authors collectively. If it wants to keep us as a thriving community, it needs to make a couple of changes.

First, ranks need to update in a timely fashion. I know Amazon for some time has wanted to kill spikes that result from large, non-Amazon promotions, but the current system, in which ranks may not change for up to five days, makes it far too difficult for authors to gain momentum--even from AMS sales.

Second, Amazon needs to do some tweaking to make AMS ads work more profitably. I think a lot of people would invest in AMS ads if they generally produced even a mildly positive ROI--which isn't usually the case. There is some evidence that people with huge budgets can make a profit, but most of us can't afford that.

In other words, what we end up with is Amazon trying to discourage the use of external promotional opportunities and then not really providing a great alternative. Over time, this will erode the number of indie authors (including those who buy AMS ads). A lot of people still publishing have sworn off AMS ads already because they've lost money on them.

How might AMS ads be tweaking in a way that doesn't cost Amazon money? I'm no expert, but maybe people who spend a certain amount on ads should be given back the organic visibility that used to exist but no longer does. The period of greater visibility for new releases has diminished considerably, and valuable tools like Also Boughts have been mostly removed. Really, those things should be available for all authors. That would maximize the royalties (and hence Amazon's cut). Amazon also needs to consider authors just starting out (who typically don't have much of a budget to work with). But if Amazon isn't going to that, then at least, such items should be available as a perk for AMS ad buyers. If Amazon really wants a viable pay-to-play ecosystem, then paying actually needs to be effective.

Another possibility would be better automated targeting. I see ads in all kinds of strange places. I suppose some authors might have mistargeted their ads, but I think very few people would consciously set up ads to display in areas unrelated to their books. When I search for my own books, some of the ribbon ads at the top are for completely different genres--and those aren't even AMS ads. It feels as if the system is not functioning correctly.

The way the system is structured at the moment, AMS is less profitable than it could be for Amazon and is likely to become less so as writers give up on it and on publishing. At the same time, authors giving up completely also costs Amazon money. So what we have right now looks like a lose-lose system for Amazon. A more enlightened approach could lead to greater profits for both authors and Amazon.


Tickling the imagination one book at a time
Bill Hiatt | fiction website | Facebook author page |
 
The following users thanked this post: Sailor Stone, alhawke

TimothyEllis

  • Forum Owner
  • Administrator
  • Series unlocked
  • ******
  • Posts: 6485
  • Thanked: 2525 times
  • Gender: Male
  • Earth Galaxy core, 2618
    • The Hunter Imperium Universe
Re: What Amazon Needs To Change
« Reply #1 on: October 03, 2023, 12:16:08 AM »
Put the also-bought slider back on every product page in all stores, in a prominent place.

It's the only source of good quality reading that I've ever found reliable, and since it's been removed permanently, 2 things have happened for me.
1. I've stopped reading new books, because I can't find any that I actually finish the sample.
2. My author income has dropped dramatically, because no-one can find my books the way they used to.

---------------------------

Change the Author following emails, which Amazon has been doing really badly for years now, to a push notification on the Amazon app on people's phones, and then push every new pre-order as it's added to the store, and every new release as it goes live.

In this way, every pre-order and new release for all the authors a reader follows will be placed in front of the reader. Whereas now, books can be discovered accidentally months after release, because no email notification was sent, or it was spam blocked along the way.

---------------------------------

Change AMS to not be a form of gambling.

The current system is less reliable than playing roulette is.

I for one, do not gamble. And I stopped using AMS back in 2019, when it was apparent you could throw $1000 into AMS and get $0 back.

It needs to be fixed so it actually works as an advertising medium, without being an unrealistic auction bid system.

------------------------------

Stop putting advertising revenue ahead of sales, and actually put all the measures which used to make real sales back in the store.

AMS is basically a legal scam. It should be replaced by encouraging actual sales once again, and cross-promotion like used to happen.

------------------------------

Return ranks reporting to 2 hourly as it used to be and reflect actual immediate sales.

Whatever war is going on with Bookbub, or the reason for messing with ranks now, MUST STOP.

Because all you're doing is messing with author incomes in a huge negative way, that AMS advertising cannot correct.

---------------------------

Seriously, retcon all the changes made after 2016. In fact, go back to the store we had in 2015, which actually worked to sell books.
Genres: Space Opera/Fantasy/Cyberpunk, with elements of LitRPG and GameLit, with a touch of the Supernatural. Also Spiritual and Games.



Timothy Ellis Kindle Author page. | Join the Hunter Legacy mailing list | The Hunter Imperium Universe on Facebook. | Forum Promo Page.
 
The following users thanked this post: Jeff Tanyard, alhawke

alhawke

Re: What Amazon Needs To Change
« Reply #2 on: October 03, 2023, 01:03:08 AM »
It's possible that Amazon is making all their changes this year because they're hurting from lackluster book sales just like we are. We'll never know. It is interesting that out of all retailers, the change rate for Amazon doing something new is like 10x more aggressive. Whereas Barnes and Noble will change something every year, Amazon does it every two weeks to every month. Is this good business? For us, no.

I've completely given up on AMS ads. I use BookBub ads aggressively. The question is, does Amazon care if experienced writers turn their back on their ad system? Perhaps they're still making enough money from newbie writers and simply the large $ money pot from the masses? I agree that if everyone turns their back on AMS, things could change. But, ironically, the problem will feed itself. If people leave AMS, the odds of getting better ads goes up. That'll bring writers back. So, as a company, what incentive would Amazon have to change anything (though they like changing things)?

The category changes were supposed to be fair to writers. However the trouble I see with the system is that the categories are still chosen by Amazon. In other words, the three categories you choose are not the ones they necessarily use anyway. So all they really did was stop Indie writers from requesting new ones. This is not a helpful change to an experienced writer. You've taken away a service for writers serious about the industry. Go after abusing categories and take them down. Why reset the entire system?

Regarding ranking, why delay two to three days? To stop authors from ranking with big sales? The authors that do this are serious writers putting a lot of money into the industry. What's the matter with that? Large sales have been going on in the industry for ages. I don't understand this. And I don't get an excuse for "being fair". If anything, preventing new books from rising isn't fair at all because it keeps the same old books at the same place stagnant and drops competition. Amazon is the only retailer I know of doing this. Why?

The carousels current locations are odd. Many times I'll see one about non-book products. Or the absolute top 100 best sellers on Amazon. Obviously these moves aren't helpful to Indie writers. Bring back the way it was before. Totally agree.

Basically, just like ^^, the focus over the past year at Amazon has not been in the best interest of writers. This is really not good for us when the company is so big in the publishing world.
 

Hopscotch

Re: What Amazon Needs To Change
« Reply #3 on: October 03, 2023, 01:07:10 AM »
I agree w/all of the the above BUT we won't get what we want until we find a way (as Bill points out) to show the Zon that its best interest lies in finding ways to make more $$ off indie writing by fixing present points of failure.  We know what the Zon doesn't know needs to be done.  And may not care to know.  How we get 'em to listen to us is the question we need to resolve.
. .

Fiction & pizza recipes @ stevenhardesty.com + nonfiction @ forgottenwarstories.com
 

TimothyEllis

  • Forum Owner
  • Administrator
  • Series unlocked
  • ******
  • Posts: 6485
  • Thanked: 2525 times
  • Gender: Male
  • Earth Galaxy core, 2618
    • The Hunter Imperium Universe
Re: What Amazon Needs To Change
« Reply #4 on: October 03, 2023, 01:13:10 AM »
I agree w/all of the the above BUT we won't get what we want until we find a way (as Bill points out) to show the Zon that its best interest lies in finding ways to make more $$ off indie writing by fixing present points of failure.  We know what the Zon doesn't know needs to be done.  And may not care to know.  How we get 'em to listen to us is the question we need to resolve.

Rumour had it we had a Zon spy back a few years ago. Hopefully they still have someone monitoring the public section here.

If they don't, then Zon, by all means send one.
Genres: Space Opera/Fantasy/Cyberpunk, with elements of LitRPG and GameLit, with a touch of the Supernatural. Also Spiritual and Games.



Timothy Ellis Kindle Author page. | Join the Hunter Legacy mailing list | The Hunter Imperium Universe on Facebook. | Forum Promo Page.
 

Post-Crisis D

Re: What Amazon Needs To Change
« Reply #5 on: October 03, 2023, 05:09:17 AM »
What if Amazon is waiting to see how AI issues work out?

If copyright and court cases and such work in AI's favor, what's to stop Amazon from using its own AI authors?  No need to pay 70% royalties if they "own" the "author."  Instead of 30%, Amazon would get to keep about 100%.  Plus, real authors will likely continue to run AMS ads, probably until Amazon has a sufficiently quantity of Amazon-AI-written books that they can promote in place of AMS ads.

Depending on how the AI issues work out, Amazon might have little incentive to change how things work for real authors.
Mulder: "If you're distracted by fear of those around you, it keeps you from seeing the actions of those above."
The X-Files: "Blood"
 

LilyBLily

Re: What Amazon Needs To Change
« Reply #6 on: October 03, 2023, 05:20:19 AM »
What if Amazon is waiting to see how AI issues work out?

If copyright and court cases and such work in AI's favor, what's to stop Amazon from using its own AI authors?  No need to pay 70% royalties if they "own" the "author."  Instead of 30%, Amazon would get to keep about 100%.  Plus, real authors will likely continue to run AMS ads, probably until Amazon has a sufficiently quantity of Amazon-AI-written books that they can promote in place of AMS ads.

Depending on how the AI issues work out, Amazon might have little incentive to change how things work for real authors.

Amazon won't make any ad revenue from publishing its own AI books.
 

Post-Crisis D

Re: What Amazon Needs To Change
« Reply #7 on: October 03, 2023, 05:31:50 AM »
What if Amazon is waiting to see how AI issues work out?

If copyright and court cases and such work in AI's favor, what's to stop Amazon from using its own AI authors?  No need to pay 70% royalties if they "own" the "author."  Instead of 30%, Amazon would get to keep about 100%.  Plus, real authors will likely continue to run AMS ads, probably until Amazon has a sufficiently quantity of Amazon-AI-written books that they can promote in place of AMS ads.

Depending on how the AI issues work out, Amazon might have little incentive to change how things work for real authors.

Amazon won't make any ad revenue from publishing its own AI books.

They wouldn't need to.

Right now, the average author gets about 70% of their list price.  Amazon gets the other 30%.  But, Amazon also gets a delivery fee which comes from the author's 70%.  And, if the author runs AMS ads, Amazon gets that too.  That doesn't come directly from the author's 70% as it is billed separately, but it effectively reduces that 70% and Amazon gets that amount.

With its own AI-written books, Amazon gets all 100%.  So, if AMS ads eventually go away, Amazon loses that AMS income, but makes up for it by keeping 100% of the AI book money.


It's not unlike if you were selling stuff from your website.  If you have a small number of items, you might run ads (as an Amazon affiliate, or Google ads, or anything similar) for other things in the hopes that if someone doesn't buy something direct from you, they will click an ad and buy something there.  With Google, you get paid per click; as an Amazon affiliate, you get a small percentage of the sale.  As your own store grows, in time it may be more cost-effective to advertise your own products in those ad slots rather than Amazon/Google/whatever ads.  You might slowly reduce the number of third party ads or you might drop them all at once depending on your strategy.  Either way, you wouldn't do that until sales on your own site justified using that space to advertise your other products rather than sending people to another site.

Amazon could utilize the same kind of strategy.  They could continue AMS ads until they have built up an inventory of Amazon-AI-written books that would make it more profitable to use that ad space to push their AI-written books rather than let authors buy AMS ads.
Mulder: "If you're distracted by fear of those around you, it keeps you from seeing the actions of those above."
The X-Files: "Blood"
 

TimothyEllis

  • Forum Owner
  • Administrator
  • Series unlocked
  • ******
  • Posts: 6485
  • Thanked: 2525 times
  • Gender: Male
  • Earth Galaxy core, 2618
    • The Hunter Imperium Universe
Re: What Amazon Needs To Change
« Reply #8 on: October 03, 2023, 12:56:30 PM »
If copyright and court cases and such work in AI's favor, what's to stop Amazon from using its own AI authors?  No need to pay 70% royalties if they "own" the "author."  Instead of 30%, Amazon would get to keep about 100%.  Plus, real authors will likely continue to run AMS ads, probably until Amazon has a sufficiently quantity of Amazon-AI-written books that they can promote in place of AMS ads.

Depending on how the AI issues work out, Amazon might have little incentive to change how things work for real authors.

I Amazon did that, all one of the other majors would need to do is ban AI completely, and all the authors feeling the pinch on Amazon would go there. Add in some incentives to unpublish from from Amazon completely, and Authors would walk.

Amazon would overnight become a ghost town with a reputation of just having AI drek and the worst of the human author stuff. Going back to it's original reputation of being all the rejects from publishers, and horrible quality.

Readers would rapidly figure out all the quality books had moved to the AI banned site, and a lot of them would move there as well.

All in all, Amazon would be shooting itself in the foot by embracing AI books.

And KU would probably collapse very rapidly as authors of quality books abandoned Amazon completely.
Genres: Space Opera/Fantasy/Cyberpunk, with elements of LitRPG and GameLit, with a touch of the Supernatural. Also Spiritual and Games.



Timothy Ellis Kindle Author page. | Join the Hunter Legacy mailing list | The Hunter Imperium Universe on Facebook. | Forum Promo Page.
 

Jeff Tanyard

Re: What Amazon Needs To Change
« Reply #9 on: October 03, 2023, 06:55:58 PM »
Put the also-bought slider back on every product page in all stores, in a prominent place.

Quote
Seriously, retcon all the changes made after 2016. In fact, go back to the store we had in 2015, which actually worked to sell books.



v  v  v  v  v    Short Stories    v  v  v  v  v    vv FREE! vv
     
Genres: Science Fiction, Fantasy (some day) | Author Website
 

Bill Hiatt

  • Trilogy unlocked
  • *****
  • Posts: 3839
  • Thanked: 1376 times
  • Gender: Male
  • Tickling the imagination one book at a time
    • Bill Hiatt's Author Website
Re: What Amazon Needs To Change
« Reply #10 on: October 03, 2023, 11:49:26 PM »
I think Amazon would be foolish to put all its eggs in the AI basket.

One never knows how courts will decide on novel issues, but at the very least, banking on being able to produce their own AI novels is a gamble. Keep in mind also that Amazon is international, and even if AI wins in the US courts, it may lose elsewhere. There may also be legislation, regulation, and other things that would make it difficult for Amazon to do what it wants--or not. But so far, Amazon has been stung at least a couple of times by AI books being sold on the site. This kind of experience isn't going to predispose Amazon to go all in on AI.

It's also not clear how soon AI will be able to produce decent long fiction. Early specimens have not been encouraging. And although Amazon could probably do without any particular indie author (with a few big-selling exceptions), major trad author brands like Stephen King would be hard to replace by AI. It's also possible that such authors would protest large-scale AI production and give Amazon a PR headache. I'm inclined to agree with Timothy that other outlets would have an opening to steal a chunk of Amazon's business that way.

Earlier, I forgot about the disaster that is author following emails, most of which Amazon doesn't send out (though I did get one recently about an old release of Timothy's). As I've said elsewhere, the system actually has the opposite of the intended effect for most of us. It gives people the illusion they don't need to check periodically because if we have a new release, they'll get notified--which they probably won't. This system needs to change.

More people would spend on AMS ads if they worked. Newbies may get sucked in before they realize how low the ROI can be, but how many newbies have big budgets? It's hard to believe they compensate for the loss of experienced authors, and under present circumstances, they won't last long enough to develop a bigger budget. Amazon needs to do more to make the ad experience lucrative.

And yes, Amazon gains nothing by limiting visibility if people don't switch to AMS, which currently doesn't work well enough. Otherwise, as I've said, Amazon ends up losing as our sales decline, not winning.


Tickling the imagination one book at a time
Bill Hiatt | fiction website | Facebook author page |
 

LilyBLily

Re: What Amazon Needs To Change
« Reply #11 on: October 04, 2023, 12:05:56 AM »
Does Amazon "need" to change? I doubt Amazon thinks so, and I wonder why. Why does it think its recent changes will improve sales of books? Or maybe sales of books are so small compared to its other sales that treatment of books just gets swept up into store changes that affect everything they sell. That's more likely.   

Ought it change? Absolutely. It would sell many more books if the also boughts were there again. It would receive a ton more ad money, too, if it reliably showed the ads. Its treatment of ads for books is baffling. Why not show the ads? The ads console is worse than ever, too: visually a mess with wasted space and bad reporting and history.

 

Bill Hiatt

  • Trilogy unlocked
  • *****
  • Posts: 3839
  • Thanked: 1376 times
  • Gender: Male
  • Tickling the imagination one book at a time
    • Bill Hiatt's Author Website
Re: What Amazon Needs To Change
« Reply #12 on: October 04, 2023, 12:27:00 AM »
And what's up with these 41-page ad carousels. Does Amazon really believe that most customers get much beyond the first page?


Tickling the imagination one book at a time
Bill Hiatt | fiction website | Facebook author page |
 

Post-Crisis D

Re: What Amazon Needs To Change
« Reply #13 on: October 04, 2023, 02:00:27 AM »
And what's up with these 41-page ad carousels. Does Amazon really believe that most customers get much beyond the first page?

When I used to buy on Amazon, I frequently flipped all the way through the carousels.
Mulder: "If you're distracted by fear of those around you, it keeps you from seeing the actions of those above."
The X-Files: "Blood"
 

TimothyEllis

  • Forum Owner
  • Administrator
  • Series unlocked
  • ******
  • Posts: 6485
  • Thanked: 2525 times
  • Gender: Male
  • Earth Galaxy core, 2618
    • The Hunter Imperium Universe
Re: What Amazon Needs To Change
« Reply #14 on: October 04, 2023, 02:07:21 AM »
And what's up with these 41-page ad carousels. Does Amazon really believe that most customers get much beyond the first page?

When I used to buy on Amazon, I frequently flipped all the way through the carousels.

When I last did that, they only had 7 pages. Most I ever saw I think was 14. And I found nothing on any of them I wanted to read.

Also bought sliders, I'd find a half dozen samples to download, and I'd buy at least 2 of them on average.

There is no way I'll look through 41 pages of advertising.
Genres: Space Opera/Fantasy/Cyberpunk, with elements of LitRPG and GameLit, with a touch of the Supernatural. Also Spiritual and Games.



Timothy Ellis Kindle Author page. | Join the Hunter Legacy mailing list | The Hunter Imperium Universe on Facebook. | Forum Promo Page.
 

Post-Crisis D

Re: What Amazon Needs To Change
« Reply #15 on: October 04, 2023, 03:08:58 AM »
And what's up with these 41-page ad carousels. Does Amazon really believe that most customers get much beyond the first page?

When I used to buy on Amazon, I frequently flipped all the way through the carousels.

When I last did that, they only had 7 pages. Most I ever saw I think was 14. And I found nothing on any of them I wanted to read.

Also bought sliders, I'd find a half dozen samples to download, and I'd buy at least 2 of them on average.

There is no way I'll look through 41 pages of advertising.

I was usually doing it for non-book purchases.

It's possible their data shows that it is effective for general purchasing.  Don't know about books specifically, but if their data shows it is generally more effective to have the carousels, then I doubt they would make a change just to the book pages because why?  I mean, if they make more money selling toasters and purses and washing machines, I doubt they will care about a few lost book sales.

Mulder: "If you're distracted by fear of those around you, it keeps you from seeing the actions of those above."
The X-Files: "Blood"
 

Post-Crisis D

Re: What Amazon Needs To Change
« Reply #16 on: October 04, 2023, 03:32:06 AM »
I think Amazon would be foolish to put all its eggs in the AI basket.

That's true as well.  The other possibility is that they don't want to be flooded with AI-written books.  I can imagine they might limit the number of uploads at some point, if they haven't already.

We may be nothing more than a gateway to get people to go to Amazon.  Authors have websites or Facebook pages or Twitter/X or whatever and they're all like, go buy my book on Amazon!  Sure, some are wide but there are still a lot that are Amazon-only and go all-in on KU and whatever.  And, just by reading messages on this forum, you can see that some authors are reluctant to go wide or sell direct; they're content to complain about Amazon but continue focusing on pushing their books on Amazon.

So, if AMS ads don't work as well?  A few authors stop trying.  That's a drop in the bucket for Amazon.  Other authors will fill the void.

Are changes Amazon makes designed to sell books?  Or are they designed to sell other merchandise and services?

How many books does the typical reader buy?  If they buy a book a day or a book every other day, they're probably a voracious reader and more likely subscribe to KU.  So, what is the high average for the typical book buyer not subscribed to KU?  A book a week maybe?  Let's say they buy a book a week or four books a month.  Let's say those books are $5.99 each.  If those are indie books, the author gets about $4.19 per book which leaves Amazon about $1.80.  Multiply by four and Amazon gets $7.20 per month from that book buyer.

How much do they make off that book buyer if they buy pet food?  Or clothes?  Laundry detergent?  A television?  A pair of headphones?  And so on?  If they make it easier to buy those things and those changes make it harder to find books, so what if that book buyer buys three books a month instead of four?  Or one book instead of four?  What if they buy more party supplies instead?  More dish soap?  Curtains?  A new mattress?

If Amazon gets that book buyer to buy more other stuff, that buyer might be more profitable to them than if they just bought books.  And, if it's harder to find and buy books but easier to find and buy household goods, is that book buyer going to stop shopping at Amazon?  Or just maybe buy fewer books?  Or maybe buy the same number of books and just wish it was easier but, oh, that Halloween-themed serving bowl is kind of cool.  Wait, was I thinking about books?  Oh!  Salad tongs that look like skeleton hands!  Click.  Oh, I need candy to hand out.  Click.  Should I get bat wings for my cat?  Click.

So, yeah, books probably aren't the priority to Amazon as they are to authors.  We're just one way to get people onto Amazon's site.  And probably not one of the top ways anymore.
Mulder: "If you're distracted by fear of those around you, it keeps you from seeing the actions of those above."
The X-Files: "Blood"
 

Bill Hiatt

  • Trilogy unlocked
  • *****
  • Posts: 3839
  • Thanked: 1376 times
  • Gender: Male
  • Tickling the imagination one book at a time
    • Bill Hiatt's Author Website
Re: What Amazon Needs To Change
« Reply #17 on: October 04, 2023, 03:34:31 AM »
Quote
It's possible their data shows that it is effective for general purchasing.  Don't know about books specifically, but if their data shows it is generally more effective to have the carousels, then I doubt they would make a change just to the book pages because why?  I mean, if they make more money selling toasters and purses and washing machines, I doubt they will care about a few lost book sales.
Yeah, part of the problem is that we don't know what the data actually says and probably never will.

That said, how complicated would it be to have a different carousel arrangement on book pages?

A quick check reveals that product pages vary by product. I picked a toaster at random. It includes customer rating by feature, which books don't have. It also includes explore similar items, each of which has a see more like this button. I've never seen anything quite like that on a book page. There's a four stars and above section, which I see occasionally on book pages. And it has an also bought section. There are a few others, some of which are on book pages and some of which aren't. There's no 41-page ad carousel or anything even remotely close to that.

In other words, Amazon already has variations in product pages. They could make book pages better calculated to sell books if they wanted.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2023, 03:37:10 AM by Bill Hiatt »


Tickling the imagination one book at a time
Bill Hiatt | fiction website | Facebook author page |
 

Bill Hiatt

  • Trilogy unlocked
  • *****
  • Posts: 3839
  • Thanked: 1376 times
  • Gender: Male
  • Tickling the imagination one book at a time
    • Bill Hiatt's Author Website
Re: What Amazon Needs To Change
« Reply #18 on: October 04, 2023, 03:56:17 AM »
Quote
That's true as well.  The other possibility is that they don't want to be flooded with AI-written books.  I can imagine they might limit the number of uploads at some point, if they haven't already.
That's a very good idea, and for once, Amazon is actually doing something that makes sense. The current limit is three per day. https://www.publishersweekly.com/pw/by-topic/digital/content-and-e-books/article/93207-kdp-will-limit-daily-number-of-new-titles.html#

Quote
So, if AMS ads don't work as well?  A few authors stop trying.  That's a drop in the bucket for Amazon.  Other authors will fill the void.
Again, this would be a great point for which to have data. My gut is telling me that they're losing more than just a few. And as I've said, I don't think new authors usually have big budgets. If a veteran drops out, it might take several new authors to fill that void. Amazon could do better, making more money even as we do.

Quote
If Amazon gets that book buyer to buy more other stuff, that buyer might be more profitable to them than if they just bought books.  And, if it's harder to find and buy books but easier to find and buy household goods, is that book buyer going to stop shopping at Amazon?  Or just maybe buy fewer books?  Or maybe buy the same number of books and just wish it was easier but, oh, that Halloween-themed serving bowl is kind of cool.  Wait, was I thinking about books?  Oh!  Salad tongs that look like skeleton hands!  Click.  Oh, I need candy to hand out.  Click.  Should I get bat wings for my cat?  Click.
And again, I'm wishing for data. I think your reasoning is largely good, except that you're treating buying books and buying other merchandise as an either-or proposition. People don't have to buy fewer books to buy other items. I'd argue that if they came to buy books and couldn't find much, they're as likely to leave in disgust as they are to shop for something else.

If Amazon was thinking as you assume it is, you'd expect to find a lot of ads for other things on book pages. I just opened a book page at random. It has exactly one non-book ad. Everything else is books. Non-book items appear at the very bottom based on my search history. But if I'm irked with Amazon for having such poor book discoverability, I may not get that far down the page. OK, I've now done ten book pages, and I've never seen more than one non-book ad. There are lots of ads, but they are for other books.

If I wanted to get book buyers to buy other things on Amazon, and I'm sure that is part of the motivation, I'd give book buyers the best imaginable shopping experience so that they'd want to look for other things. The last thing I'd do is try to balk their book search so that they'd randomly start browsing other pages. That has the potential to backfire.

Sometimes, I think we give Amazon too much credit and assume that every single thing that happens is some brilliant Machiavellian strategy. Sometimes, it's just bad decision-making. Remember the clunky design of series pages that made Amazon create a new page every time a series item got added? That was just a mistake, not a scheme to get people to not buy later books in a series. The current system is much better and actually leads to more whole-series sales.

We also need to remember that Amazon doesn't always win. For example, it tried a restaurant delivery service for prime members, and more established brands like DoorDash and Postmates killed it pretty fast.


Tickling the imagination one book at a time
Bill Hiatt | fiction website | Facebook author page |
 

Post-Crisis D

Re: What Amazon Needs To Change
« Reply #19 on: October 04, 2023, 04:08:01 AM »
Yeah, part of the problem is that we don't know what the data actually says and probably never will.

That is our problem, for sure.

Using your toaster example, I searched for a toaster and picked one at random.  Looking at the toaster, Amazon suggests I might also want to buy an electric can opener.

Or, there is a carousel of 80 pages with toasters I can choose from.  Also, air fryers.  I could get a toaster with a warming rack.  A toaster with a touch screen?  And, I'm sorry, but SMEG is not a good brand name for a toaster or, um, anything really.  Also, I'm not paying over $200 for a toaster that says SMEG on it.  I'm just not.  It is rose gold, though, so I suppose if you want your toaster to match your iPhone . . .  There is also a toaster carrying bag.  Who needs a toaster carrying bag?  Can you take that as a carry-on on a plane?  Excuse me, but can I put my toaster in the overhead storage?  Do people have emotional-support toasters?  A toaster cover makes sense, especially if you have a SMEG toaster, but a carrying bag?  The carrying bag also has a pouch for accessories.  Says it's good for camping, travel and weekend parties.  Camping?  Where are you going to plug it in?  Weekend parties?  You bring the beer keg and I'll bring the toaster?  Okay, moving on . . .  There is also a commercial toaster that toasts 300 slices an hour.  A toaster cover with pockets for silverware?  What?

Oops.  I clicked away from the toaster to look at that cover.  And now they suggest I might also want a set of food storage containers and a 15-piece knife set.  And then there is a clear toaster cover to protect your "beloved toaster" from dust and whatnot and I guess it's clear so you can show off your shiny dust-free toaster.  You can also buy a clear cover for your mixer.  Also, how are clear covers quilted?  Anyway, click that and they also suggest you might want a cover for other appliances.  Or, heck, maybe you'd like to buy a new mixer to go with your new clear quilted mixer cover?

So, you can see how you end up down the rabbit hole.  And books?  What books?

And the toaster carrying case also has room for oven mitts.  I enjoy the picture with a caption that it's "perfect for camping and picnicking" which shows a happy family with a battery-operated lamp and a frying pan that was probably cooked over a campfire and no sign of a toaster or electrical outlet to plug it into.

Oh, look.  The toaster carrying bag has no reviews.  Probably no one has figured out why they need a toaster carrying bag.

Also, Amazon suggests I might want to buy some paper towels and a gripper pad for opening jars.
Mulder: "If you're distracted by fear of those around you, it keeps you from seeing the actions of those above."
The X-Files: "Blood"
 
The following users thanked this post: feste, RiverRun

alhawke

Re: What Amazon Needs To Change
« Reply #20 on: October 04, 2023, 04:31:54 AM »
That said, how complicated would it be to have a different carousel arrangement on book pages?
I'd propose to randomly rotate the carousels. The last books bid at $.25 on a 41 row stream should still be visible on occasion front and center. A rotation can still be done randomly favoring a writer's bid.

I really think the carousel is the reason AMS is such a failure. In the past, writers advised other authors to set a $.25 bid. How many of those books are seen now out of 400 books? And how many even look at the carousels at all now that they're met with rows of toasters and "books you may like" carousels.
 

Post-Crisis D

Re: What Amazon Needs To Change
« Reply #21 on: October 04, 2023, 05:08:02 AM »
The carousel discussion isn't dissimilar from the discussions of book promotion sites that send eMails or links to webpages that have what can seem like an endless list of books.  How many people see the books at the very bottom?  Or, the middle in the case of people that jump from top to bottom?

And, while Amazon may be just as happy to sell you a toaster as a book, those book promo sites are purportedly geared toward selling books.  (Although, as Amazon affiliates, if someone clicks on a book link and buys an air fryer instead, I don't know that the book promo site will be entirely unhappy about that because cha-ching!)

How many of those book promo sites have changed their ways?  From what I recall, not many.  If sites specifically designed to push books can't be bothered to make changes to improve the visibility of the books they promote, how can we expect Amazon which is no longer primarily focused on books to make similar changes?
Mulder: "If you're distracted by fear of those around you, it keeps you from seeing the actions of those above."
The X-Files: "Blood"
 

Bill Hiatt

  • Trilogy unlocked
  • *****
  • Posts: 3839
  • Thanked: 1376 times
  • Gender: Male
  • Tickling the imagination one book at a time
    • Bill Hiatt's Author Website
Re: What Amazon Needs To Change
« Reply #22 on: October 04, 2023, 11:46:09 PM »
Quote
Using your toaster example, I searched for a toaster and picked one at random.  Looking at the toaster, Amazon suggests I might also want to buy an electric can opener.
I never said that non-book product pages didn't try to recommend other things. What I said was that book pages typically advertise books, with very little advertising for other items. The same is true of book search results, except that they sometimes drift into movies or music that seems related.
Quote
How many of those book promo sites have changed their ways?  From what I recall, not many.  If sites specifically designed to push books can't be bothered to make changes to improve the visibility of the books they promote, how can we expect Amazon which is no longer primarily focused on books to make similar changes?
That's a good point, but what exactly could the book promo sites do differently? The only thing I can think of is advertise fewer books at a time--which cuts their income or requires them to raise prices. Amazon has a lot more options at its disposal.


Tickling the imagination one book at a time
Bill Hiatt | fiction website | Facebook author page |
 

Bill Hiatt

  • Trilogy unlocked
  • *****
  • Posts: 3839
  • Thanked: 1376 times
  • Gender: Male
  • Tickling the imagination one book at a time
    • Bill Hiatt's Author Website
Re: What Amazon Needs To Change
« Reply #23 on: October 05, 2023, 12:06:10 AM »
Another thing Amazon might improve is the way it makes recommendations. Sometimes, they do seem on target, like reminding me of series I haven't yet finished. That makes sense. What doesn't make sense is recommending to me books I've already purchased--which happens a lot. I guess the recommendation algorithm doesn't communicate with the sale data--except that it seems to with regard to series. It know which ones I've bought some of but not all of.



Tickling the imagination one book at a time
Bill Hiatt | fiction website | Facebook author page |
 

alhawke

Re: What Amazon Needs To Change
« Reply #24 on: October 05, 2023, 12:14:24 AM »
The carousel discussion isn't dissimilar from the discussions of book promotion sites that send eMails or links to webpages that have what can seem like an endless list of books.  How many people see the books at the very bottom?  Or, the middle in the case of people that jump from top to bottom?
Yes, I've definitely seen an impact in performance based on where my books are placed in promotions. Some promotion companies have responded to this by offering to place your book at the top, or rotate them, at an additional cost. Not the biggie ones like BookBub, though.
 

PJ Post

Re: What Amazon Needs To Change
« Reply #25 on: October 05, 2023, 10:44:03 PM »
Amazon is successful beyond Bezos' wildest dreams of avarice. Financially, they're doing a few things right.

I know it looks like they are master magicians of business and yet, are unable to work a self-sticking stamp. And few would trust any of them to run a lemonade stand, but it's always helpful in these discussions to understand their goals - the why of it all.

It's also important to know that they have never cared about their vendors, not maliciously, they're just being Machiavellian. Once upon a time, they needed self-publishers to create inventory for the new Kindle, so they did all kinds of nifty things for us. That was then. Now, we're just another business segment, which is also just another AMS profit center.

They've become so massive they're like a Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy reference at this point, who knows why they do the things they do. Greed? Bureaucracy? Incompetence? Systemic dis-interest? A misguided sense of tech-altruism? Um....greed?
 

Bill Hiatt

  • Trilogy unlocked
  • *****
  • Posts: 3839
  • Thanked: 1376 times
  • Gender: Male
  • Tickling the imagination one book at a time
    • Bill Hiatt's Author Website
Re: What Amazon Needs To Change
« Reply #26 on: October 06, 2023, 12:21:21 AM »
There's a lot of truth in that. However, enlightened self-interest could easily lead them to even greater profits--without having to screw their vendors.

Also, the more bad press Amazon gets, the more likely a successful antitrust action against them becomes. The decision to look mostly at consumer prices rather than market concentration was an administrative choice during the Reagan administration, not an actual change in the law. There's nothing preventing a reversion to earlier applications of the law--except public opinion. Consumers still find Amazon useful, for the most part, but the critical voices are getting louder and louder. It's not just indie authors who are unhappy.

In addition, Amazon still needs us for KU. If we go away, so does it. I think we're in real trouble if Amazon decides it no longer wants to maintain KU. As long as it does, it ignores us at its peril.



Tickling the imagination one book at a time
Bill Hiatt | fiction website | Facebook author page |
 

TimothyEllis

  • Forum Owner
  • Administrator
  • Series unlocked
  • ******
  • Posts: 6485
  • Thanked: 2525 times
  • Gender: Male
  • Earth Galaxy core, 2618
    • The Hunter Imperium Universe
Re: What Amazon Needs To Change
« Reply #27 on: October 06, 2023, 12:23:21 AM »
I found a sort of also-bought slider on my current book today.

Progress?
Genres: Space Opera/Fantasy/Cyberpunk, with elements of LitRPG and GameLit, with a touch of the Supernatural. Also Spiritual and Games.



Timothy Ellis Kindle Author page. | Join the Hunter Legacy mailing list | The Hunter Imperium Universe on Facebook. | Forum Promo Page.
 

PJ Post

Re: What Amazon Needs To Change
« Reply #28 on: October 06, 2023, 02:58:08 AM »
However, enlightened self-interest could easily lead them to even greater profits--without having to screw their vendors.

Sadly, there's no place for rational thought in late-stage capitalism.


Quote
In addition, Amazon still needs us for KU. If we go away, so does it. I think we're in real trouble if Amazon decides it no longer wants to maintain KU. As long as it does, it ignores us at its peril.

I get what you're saying, but I don't think they care. No matter how bad it gets for Indies, no matter how many quit or move to other platforms, there will always be a fresh group of get-rich-quick schemers and ever-hopeful aspiring novelists to feed the beast. Amazon doesn't really have to do anything. Also, I'm sure that the chaos of our book pages is somehow more profitable (big picture) than how it used to be. I mean, even the 'Buy' button's color is optimized for profitability. I don't think Amazon does anything without a few deciduous forest's worth of analytics.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2023, 03:00:34 AM by PJ Post »
 

Post-Crisis D

Re: What Amazon Needs To Change
« Reply #29 on: October 06, 2023, 04:39:57 AM »
Capitalism is like a glass of water.

A glass of water is good.

It is generally good for you.  Some recommend you should drink 8 glasses a day.

Now, if some feeble-minded politician or brain-dead bureaucrat comes along and adds cyanide to the water because some drunken moron who died over 100 years ago thought drinking water was bad and people should be discouraged from drinking it by any means necessary including killing them, we don't refer to it as a "late-stage glass of water."

No, we continue to recognize that drinking a glass of water is good but drinking a glass of poisoned water is not.

And, in a rational world, we would find those homicidal maniacs that put the cyanide in the water and lock them up rather than hail them as cultural heroes.

The glass of unpoisoned water is fine.

The people telling you that drinking the glass of unpoisoned water is good for you are fine.

The people that are putting the poison in the glass of water and telling other people that water is just naturally poisonous are monsters.
Mulder: "If you're distracted by fear of those around you, it keeps you from seeing the actions of those above."
The X-Files: "Blood"
 

Bill Hiatt

  • Trilogy unlocked
  • *****
  • Posts: 3839
  • Thanked: 1376 times
  • Gender: Male
  • Tickling the imagination one book at a time
    • Bill Hiatt's Author Website
Re: What Amazon Needs To Change
« Reply #30 on: October 06, 2023, 08:22:52 AM »
I found a sort of also-bought slider on my current book today.

Progress?
I've seen also-boughts appear periodically over the last few months, but maybe today's appearance is part of Amazon responding to the problem. We will just have to wait and see.


Tickling the imagination one book at a time
Bill Hiatt | fiction website | Facebook author page |
 

Bill Hiatt

  • Trilogy unlocked
  • *****
  • Posts: 3839
  • Thanked: 1376 times
  • Gender: Male
  • Tickling the imagination one book at a time
    • Bill Hiatt's Author Website
Re: What Amazon Needs To Change
« Reply #31 on: October 06, 2023, 08:44:29 AM »
However, enlightened self-interest could easily lead them to even greater profits--without having to screw their vendors.

Sadly, there's no place for rational thought in late-stage capitalism.


Quote
In addition, Amazon still needs us for KU. If we go away, so does it. I think we're in real trouble if Amazon decides it no longer wants to maintain KU. As long as it does, it ignores us at its peril.

I get what you're saying, but I don't think they care. No matter how bad it gets for Indies, no matter how many quit or move to other platforms, there will always be a fresh group of get-rich-quick schemers and ever-hopeful aspiring novelists to feed the beast. Amazon doesn't really have to do anything. Also, I'm sure that the chaos of our book pages is somehow more profitable (big picture) than how it used to be. I mean, even the 'Buy' button's color is optimized for profitability. I don't think Amazon does anything without a few deciduous forest's worth of analytics.
This is yet another situation in which it would be nice to have data.

When I first started in 2012, there was a much greater chance of someone making a living as an indie writers. That's not to say it's impossible now, but it's certainly gotten tougher.

I had no idea what I was doing, and yet I made some sales in international markets that were certainly not the result of friends buying my book. And it was in general easier to get visibility, easier to move the sales needle, etc. Looking at my sales and KU lifetime graphs, KU and sales are both actually going up after slumping a little (2018-2019). Such a result is partly just having more titles, but it's also a function of increasing ad spends, so that on paper, I look as if I'm improving--until one looks at ad expenses, at which point I'm actually losing ground.

I used to be able to maintain reasonable growth without spending more than I made. Now I can't. I can persist a while longer, but my financial situation is far different from the average writer just starting out.  Someone like that, whether a get-rich-quicker or an actual writer, isn't going to last as long as people did who started in 2012. The reality of the situation will sink in too quickly. It's hard to imagine that people will just keep appearing magically to try to same failed strategy.

By now, people know that the Brooklyn Bridge is not actually for sale. They know that Nigerian princes aren't looking to give them money. In the same way, they will figure out just how much the odds are stacked against them. A few idealists will persist as starving artists, but starving artists aren't what keeps KU afloat. A few people who are independently wealthy may persist, but they may or may not have talent, and in either case, that's not going to be very common. A few people who have substantial fan bases will survive, but again, that's not going to be very many. People who have never known success but just keep pumping money in will be only a small minority. Yeah, new people will flow in, but they'll flow out almost as quickly. AMS revenue will go down. KU viability will be threatened. Overall revenues from book sales will decline. Amazon will not benefit from any of this.

It may be that Amazon won't notice until the trend becomes more obvious, but it's also possible it will realize early enough to actually do something about it. Improving organic visibility won't cost Amazon much but could produce substantial benefits long-term.


Tickling the imagination one book at a time
Bill Hiatt | fiction website | Facebook author page |
 

PJ Post

Re: What Amazon Needs To Change
« Reply #32 on: October 06, 2023, 10:16:32 PM »
Late-stage Capitalism occurs when the system begins to eat itself, thus guaranteeing a near-term finite end. How long this takes depends on our collective denial. But at some point, the lights will go off.

___

This is yet another situation in which it would be nice to have data.

It does seem like we'd all do better if we had the data, doesn't it?


Quote
It's hard to imagine that people will just keep appearing magically to try to same failed strategy.

Is it? I mean, yeah, sure - eventually. But eventually could be a long way down the road. For example, between the 1850s and 1950s, the Cuyahoga River caught fire over a dozen times.


Quote
It may be that Amazon won't notice until the trend becomes more obvious...

The thing to keep in mind is, at the end of the day, how much of their portfolio is represented by self-publishing? With $514 billion in sales last year, would they even care?

___


eta: I don't think capitalism is necessarily bad, but when the only goal is year over year growth in service of bolstering stock prices, literally to the exclusion of everything else, I think it's safe to say we've gone off the rails.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2023, 10:27:20 PM by PJ Post »
 

Bill Hiatt

  • Trilogy unlocked
  • *****
  • Posts: 3839
  • Thanked: 1376 times
  • Gender: Male
  • Tickling the imagination one book at a time
    • Bill Hiatt's Author Website
Re: What Amazon Needs To Change
« Reply #33 on: October 06, 2023, 11:33:24 PM »
To be sure of some of these things, we'd not only need more data but to be able to see the future.

We've had some pretty awful times in the past. The era of the robber barons comes to mind. At that point, people didn't have a concept like late-stage capitalism. But if they had, surely they would have thought they were living in the late stage. They would have been wrong. In the immediate aftermath of the crash in 1929, surely some people would have thought they were living in the aftermath of the collapse of capitalism. They too would have been wrong.

We could be headed straight into catastrophe--or not.

Both of these historic periods led to some fine-tuning of capitalism and ruled out certain kinds of disasters. For instance, since the SEC opened its doors, we haven't had another crash comparable to 1929. Some people would see these adjustments as half measures at best, and human greed will find a way to exploit whatever system is in place. Still, we are arguably less vulnerable on a number of fronts than we were in 1870.

The Cuyahoga River? Yes, something should have been done about that earlier. We forget easily. It's like people who keep rebuilding in areas prone to wildfires during dry seasons. (Though in that case, one could argue that they're stuck. Who is going to buy their property in a wildfire zone? Can they afford to just walk away and buy somewhere else?

KDP is a different situation. If you're losing money daily, you kind of know it and are constantly reminded if you don't. If your books aren't selling, you definitely know it. Unless you're visualizing a huge number of people who are independently wealthy (and they're aren't that many), you'd have to admit that authors can't maintain themselves in those circumstances for very long. You might leave your titles up, but you aren't going to keep paying for AMS ads with money you don't have. Amazon may at first have boosted income from AMS with its various shenanigans, but that just isn't sustainable.

As far as how much Amazon will lose, it's true that books at 28 billion (if the stat is from the same year as yours) is only about 5.5% of the total. If Data Guy's old figures are still roughly accurate, indies would be somewhere between a third and half of that. Let's say it's 10 billion. Know any companies that will basically throw 10 billion away for nothing? No, neither do I, and it cuts against your greed analysis of motivation.

Let's not forget KU, which in the breakdowns I've seen, is listed under subscriptions, not sales. Because a lot of trads still look down on KU, indies are almost certainly at least half of the KU income, maybe more.

If Amazon really didn't care about the income it gets from indies, who maintain the exclusivity requirement on KU? It costs some resources just to monitor and make sure our KU titles aren't showing up on other sites. It also costs Amazon a lot of titles that could otherwise be in KU--again, less money for Amazon. In the beginning, Amazon was trying to pull us away from the competition. But now, there isn't all that much competition in books. The mom-and-pop stores are all gone. The big outlets have only a small fraction of what Amazon has. (When I started, Barnes and Noble had 20% of the US market. Last time I checked, it had 3-4%.) The motivation often alleged for the exclusivity requirement no long applies. Yet Amazon keeps it in place. The only logical possibility here is that Amazon values the indie herd, at least a little. Their current policies, however, do not well support such a valuation, leading as they will inevitably to declining sales, declining KU revenues, and even declining AMS revenues.


Tickling the imagination one book at a time
Bill Hiatt | fiction website | Facebook author page |
 

LilyBLily

Re: What Amazon Needs To Change
« Reply #34 on: October 07, 2023, 12:01:04 AM »
We can't decide whether Amazon is inept or an evil genius. Maybe Amazon is just like other companies, with competing department managers, and executive fiats that wreak havoc, and inefficiencies that for many reasons simply do not get corrected. 

Yes, KU and Amazon ads both feel like the slowly boiling water and we're the frogs too stupid to jump out. But looked at another way, Amazon is very committed to books. It costs Amazon resources to list our books whether they sell or not. We don't pay to list our books and we don't pay to change the content or the sales copy or the cover. We change things a lot, and every time we change anything, Amazon has to review the changes. Again, a cost to Amazon whether we sell a million books or none. The same thing with the ads console. Amazon had to build it and Amazon keeps tinkering with it, and whether we buy a ton of ads and spend a lot of money or we don't, Amazon has to keep maintaining the ads console and doing something about the paid ads, too. Plus Amazon has to ride herd on all the scammers who are constantly trying to game the system. That costs resources, as well. And what about the POD system? Amazon will print one book and charge a moderate fee, making it possible for authors to earn a nice profit on the printing of just one book that is sold at a modest price. Amazing. Imagine the complexities of the Amazon contracts with printers. It take resources to set up and maintain a system like that.

Ah, but the book sales pages. Not good enough. Yes, losing the also boughts was a mistake, because readers do actively search for books just like the ones they have bought or read. Or was it? There is a theory that people actually buy more if they can't find what they think they are looking for immediately and thus stumble upon other items they would not have considered. Presumably, that's the sales theory Amazon is employing right now. It's a valid theory, and yet...authors experience it as lost sales. But if the Amazon store actually sells more books total, Amazon will stick to the carousels it now has.
 

TimothyEllis

  • Forum Owner
  • Administrator
  • Series unlocked
  • ******
  • Posts: 6485
  • Thanked: 2525 times
  • Gender: Male
  • Earth Galaxy core, 2618
    • The Hunter Imperium Universe
Re: What Amazon Needs To Change
« Reply #35 on: October 07, 2023, 12:38:05 AM »
There is a theory that people actually buy more if they can't find what they think they are looking for immediately and thus stumble upon other items they would not have considered. Presumably, that's the sales theory Amazon is employing right now. It's a valid theory, and yet...authors experience it as lost sales. But if the Amazon store actually sells more books total, Amazon will stick to the carousels it now has.

And yet, I've stopped buying books.

And I buy other things because I'm looking for them specifically.

So if that's the theory, it totally failed with me.
Genres: Space Opera/Fantasy/Cyberpunk, with elements of LitRPG and GameLit, with a touch of the Supernatural. Also Spiritual and Games.



Timothy Ellis Kindle Author page. | Join the Hunter Legacy mailing list | The Hunter Imperium Universe on Facebook. | Forum Promo Page.
 

Post-Crisis D

Re: What Amazon Needs To Change
« Reply #36 on: October 07, 2023, 02:22:27 AM »
We've had some pretty awful times in the past. The era of the robber barons comes to mind. At that point, people didn't have a concept like late-stage capitalism. But if they had, surely they would have thought they were living in the late stage. They would have been wrong. In the immediate aftermath of the crash in 1929, surely some people would have thought they were living in the aftermath of the collapse of capitalism. They too would have been wrong.

We could be headed straight into catastrophe--or not.

Both of these historic periods led to some fine-tuning of capitalism and ruled out certain kinds of disasters. For instance, since the SEC opened its doors, we haven't had another crash comparable to 1929. Some people would see these adjustments as half measures at best, and human greed will find a way to exploit whatever system is in place. Still, we are arguably less vulnerable on a number of fronts than we were in 1870.

Socialists believed that the end of capitalism was near at the end of World War II.

That didn't happen.

Towards the end of the 1960s, they believed the end of capitalism was near.

They were wrong again.

And, every time, they are so very very certain they are right.

Kind of like the guy standing on the street corner with a "The End is Nigh!" sign.

I've lost count of how many ends of the world I've already survived.
Mulder: "If you're distracted by fear of those around you, it keeps you from seeing the actions of those above."
The X-Files: "Blood"
 

Hopscotch

Re: What Amazon Needs To Change
« Reply #37 on: October 07, 2023, 03:22:58 AM »
I've lost count of how many ends of the world I've already survived.

You mean The End Is Neigh?
. .

Fiction & pizza recipes @ stevenhardesty.com + nonfiction @ forgottenwarstories.com
 

littleauthor

Re: What Amazon Needs To Change
« Reply #38 on: October 07, 2023, 04:41:41 AM »
I'm a socialist and I never think the end of capitalism is nigh. Which is why I'm a socialist.
As far as Zon goes, I would LOVE it if they pulled my bottom dweller books from the store. I hate that I've unpublished books (that I stupidly released in print before I knew what I was doing) and Zon keeps those pages alive in case a third party seller wants to pretend to have a copy in print.
Clean up the store. Cull the stuff we've archived from the search. That is fine with me.
"Not working to her full potential."
 

Bill Hiatt

  • Trilogy unlocked
  • *****
  • Posts: 3839
  • Thanked: 1376 times
  • Gender: Male
  • Tickling the imagination one book at a time
    • Bill Hiatt's Author Website
Re: What Amazon Needs To Change
« Reply #39 on: October 07, 2023, 07:29:43 AM »
Quote
There is a theory that people actually buy more if they can't find what they think they are looking for immediately and thus stumble upon other items they would not have considered. Presumably, that's the sales theory Amazon is employing right now. It's a valid theory, and yet...authors experience it as lost sales. But if the Amazon store actually sells more books total, Amazon will stick to the carousels it now has.

Book sales on Amazon have continued to rise, but I'm not sure it's because people are forced to look harder for them.

In my experience, people who like to browse will browse, anyway. People who are after a specific thing and can't immediately find it are just as likely to leave as they are to struggle--unless the people I know are very atypical.

Most book lovers are browsers who miss brick-and-mortar and might do their best to replicate the experience online.  Purpose-driven book shoppers, who want a specific thing for a specific reason, have an entirely different.

In any case, I subscribe to the theory that Amazon has been stripping away organic visibility in an effort to force more spending on AMS--a flawed strategy for the reasons I've mentioned. But your points do make me wonder. There's really no way to be sure.

On the subject of cleaning up the store, yes, it seems as if unpublished books should be gone, though I understand the issue with paperbacks and third-party sellers. But I have an old ebook-only listing that is still there after being unpublished as well. It also shows up as a title every month on the dashboard event though it no longer exists. This isn't helping anybody.

On the subject of capitalism ending, just think about how many times the end of the world has been predicted by various religious groups. It was going to end by 1000. Then it was going to end by 2000. In between, I believe Seventh Day Adventists originally predicted 1844. Also, a popular conservative Christian writer used the Book of Revelation to decide that the world would end 40 years after the founding of the modern nation of Israel, or 1988. (Mis)interpreters of the Mayan calendar were sure it was going to be 2012.

Unless I'm mistaken, none of those predictions came to pass. That said, I had a relative who said many decades ago, "We're already dead, and this is hell!" I think that might have been an overstatement.


Tickling the imagination one book at a time
Bill Hiatt | fiction website | Facebook author page |
 
The following users thanked this post: LilyBLily

Post-Crisis D

Re: What Amazon Needs To Change
« Reply #40 on: October 07, 2023, 08:00:49 AM »
On the subject of capitalism ending, just think about how many times the end of the world has been predicted by various religious groups. It was going to end by 1000. Then it was going to end by 2000. In between, I believe Seventh Day Adventists originally predicted 1844. Also, a popular conservative Christian writer used the Book of Revelation to decide that the world would end 40 years after the founding of the modern nation of Israel, or 1988. (Mis)interpreters of the Mayan calendar were sure it was going to be 2012.

In 999 A.D., there were people that were convinced the Pope at the time was the anti - Christ.

There was a prophecy attributed to Mother Shipton (but likely written decades or centuries after her death) that predicted the world would end in the year 1881 which was later revised to 1991, presumably because that rhymed better than 1981.

Of course, most of us remember Y2K.  That one seemed a bit more probable but only because we were already so computerized and many really had no idea how the change would affect computers not designed to handle the year 2000.  Of course, now it seems improbable that an errant computer would launch a nuclear attack because it read the year as 1900 or 1960 or whatever instead of 2000.  But, yeah, there were concerns over planes crashing and elevators dropping and who knows what else.

And, that was on top of the normal turn of the century end of the world worries.

Then when the world didn't end in 1999 or 2000, then some would-be prophets figured, oh, that was the start--not the end--of the Tribulation so we'd have seven more years before the end.

I think there was a date in 2005 too.

And there have been so many more.  I remember there was one author that predicted the end in the 80s.  Maybe that was the one you mentioned.  But then kept revising the date when it didn't happen.

I think there are some worries about 2032, 2037 and 2040 too.  (If I remember right, 2040 is the next Y2K for some computer systems.)

Of course, one day, there could be a super volcano erupt or a large space-borne object may crash into the Earth or the sun will go supernova or just sort of fizzle out and you know there will be a guy somewhere with his "The End is Nigh" sign and he'll be going around saying, "I tried to warn you!"
Mulder: "If you're distracted by fear of those around you, it keeps you from seeing the actions of those above."
The X-Files: "Blood"
 

Hopscotch

Re: What Amazon Needs To Change
« Reply #41 on: October 07, 2023, 09:49:32 AM »
How did this thread get distracted to debating the world's end?  Unless you secretly mean the world will end the day the Zon treats indies as we deserve.
. .

Fiction & pizza recipes @ stevenhardesty.com + nonfiction @ forgottenwarstories.com
 

elleoco

Re: What Amazon Needs To Change
« Reply #42 on: October 07, 2023, 10:45:54 AM »
At the same time, authors giving up completely also costs Amazon money. So what we have right now looks like a lose-lose system for Amazon.

How does indie authors who don't sell giving up cost Amazon? Not continuing to pay for useless AMS ads? Do most indies do that? Surely people try it for a short time, find it doesn't work and give that up first?

Like Timothy the only book recommendations that ever worked for me were on Also Buy lists. Amazon often recommends books I've already bought from them to me. It also sometimes recommends my own books to me. All of which just aggravates me, not that they care. And books are the only thing that I browse and may end up buying something in a genre I didn't go there intending to look at, but still a book. Other than that, I search for what I want and that's all they're going to sell me at that time. The rest is noise and gets no more attention than any other annoying internet ads.

TimothyEllis

  • Forum Owner
  • Administrator
  • Series unlocked
  • ******
  • Posts: 6485
  • Thanked: 2525 times
  • Gender: Male
  • Earth Galaxy core, 2618
    • The Hunter Imperium Universe
Re: What Amazon Needs To Change
« Reply #43 on: October 07, 2023, 11:53:38 AM »
Like Timothy the only book recommendations that ever worked for me were on Also Buy lists. Amazon often recommends books I've already bought from them to me.

I got one of them just now. 2 books in the same series I bought several years ago, but are definitely in my books list if the Bot cared to check first, which it didn't.

That's just bad programming.

My guess is the 2 recommendations are based on a recent series, these being by the same author.

But it's just bad design or laziness that the Bot doesn't check what you already own when making up that recommends email to send.

Genres: Space Opera/Fantasy/Cyberpunk, with elements of LitRPG and GameLit, with a touch of the Supernatural. Also Spiritual and Games.



Timothy Ellis Kindle Author page. | Join the Hunter Legacy mailing list | The Hunter Imperium Universe on Facebook. | Forum Promo Page.
 

LilyBLily

Re: What Amazon Needs To Change
« Reply #44 on: October 07, 2023, 01:34:42 PM »
The bot constantly sends me "New in Kindle Unlimited" ads with best-sellers at the top--the types of books I do not ever browse, so I have zero history with them. They're all books whose titles end in "A Novel."

Later in the same email, the bot trots out various works of Regency romance that I am theoretically interested in but have already looked at on Amazon and did not borrow or buy. Ignoring my browsing history again. 

I just reviewed one of these emails and was surprised to discover that it goes on and on, mixing types of books and even including things from Marvel Comics. I apparently have never read to the end of one of these previously; I assumed that the Regency rejects were the only romance genre books listed since the next books were some other genres or back to best-sellers. Proof that a long promotional email from anybody is a waste unless the reader already knows how long it is and the typical mix of types of books and thus is willing to read past the books they're not interested in on the odd chance that there is something they might like. I suspect gmail cuts these off at the knees, just as it does with ad newsletters. Why wouldn't it?       
 

Bill Hiatt

  • Trilogy unlocked
  • *****
  • Posts: 3839
  • Thanked: 1376 times
  • Gender: Male
  • Tickling the imagination one book at a time
    • Bill Hiatt's Author Website
Re: What Amazon Needs To Change
« Reply #45 on: October 07, 2023, 11:17:46 PM »
At the same time, authors giving up completely also costs Amazon money. So what we have right now looks like a lose-lose system for Amazon.

How does indie authors who don't sell giving up cost Amazon? Not continuing to pay for useless AMS ads? Do most indies do that? Surely people try it for a short time, find it doesn't work and give that up first?

Like Timothy the only book recommendations that ever worked for me were on Also Buy lists. Amazon often recommends books I've already bought from them to me. It also sometimes recommends my own books to me. All of which just aggravates me, not that they care. And books are the only thing that I browse and may end up buying something in a genre I didn't go there intending to look at, but still a book. Other than that, I search for what I want and that's all they're going to sell me at that time. The rest is noise and gets no more attention than any other annoying internet ads.
Without facts, we can only speculate. I'm working from the theory that Amazon started reducing organic visibility to force people to spend or spend more on AMS ads. A number of people have reported having more difficulty getting sales starting sometime in 2015 or 2016 and getting progressively worse from there.

You are literally correct. If someone who doesn't sell and doesn't buy AMS ads drops out, Amazon loses nothing. But if someone drops out because their sales have dropped as a result of Amazon's changes, Amazon loses money. If someone stops AMS (as a number of people here have) because it isn't as easy to get a positive ROI with it as it used to, Amazon loses money. There are authors who have both had decent sales and paid for some AMS advertising but who gave up because of how hard it was to get a positive ROI. Again, Amazon loses money.

It's clear that organic visibility is lower. Some people are also reporting drops in Amazon ad effectiveness. How many people are involved and what the exact impact is can't be quantified without more data. But based on what little we have, I'd say Amazon's efforts to wring more profit out of KDP will be counterproductive in the end.

Anyway, that's my theory.


Tickling the imagination one book at a time
Bill Hiatt | fiction website | Facebook author page |
 

Bill Hiatt

  • Trilogy unlocked
  • *****
  • Posts: 3839
  • Thanked: 1376 times
  • Gender: Male
  • Tickling the imagination one book at a time
    • Bill Hiatt's Author Website
Re: What Amazon Needs To Change
« Reply #46 on: October 07, 2023, 11:23:14 PM »
The bot constantly sends me "New in Kindle Unlimited" ads with best-sellers at the top--the types of books I do not ever browse, so I have zero history with them. They're all books whose titles end in "A Novel."

Later in the same email, the bot trots out various works of Regency romance that I am theoretically interested in but have already looked at on Amazon and did not borrow or buy. Ignoring my browsing history again. 

I just reviewed one of these emails and was surprised to discover that it goes on and on, mixing types of books and even including things from Marvel Comics. I apparently have never read to the end of one of these previously; I assumed that the Regency rejects were the only romance genre books listed since the next books were some other genres or back to best-sellers. Proof that a long promotional email from anybody is a waste unless the reader already knows how long it is and the typical mix of types of books and thus is willing to read past the books they're not interested in on the odd chance that there is something they might like. I suspect gmail cuts these off at the knees, just as it does with ad newsletters. Why wouldn't it?       
My luck hasn't been quite that bad. I usually at least get the right genre. But Amazon does frequently send me ads for things I've already purchased or have already looked at and decided against. The strangeness is not confined to books. Sometimes in the people-who-bought-x-also-bought-y area, I see competing products grouped together. Maybe people did buy all of them, but I have to think those were exceptional cases.

It seems as if Amazon has some work to do on its recommendation algorithms.


Tickling the imagination one book at a time
Bill Hiatt | fiction website | Facebook author page |
 

TimothyEllis

  • Forum Owner
  • Administrator
  • Series unlocked
  • ******
  • Posts: 6485
  • Thanked: 2525 times
  • Gender: Male
  • Earth Galaxy core, 2618
    • The Hunter Imperium Universe
Re: What Amazon Needs To Change
« Reply #47 on: October 07, 2023, 11:53:50 PM »
There are authors who have both had decent sales and paid for some AMS advertising but who gave up because of how hard it was to get a positive ROI. Again, Amazon loses money.

That was me.

Since I gave up using AMS after spending some $1800 in a month on a new release, and have a worse than average month as a result, showing the ads had done nothing at all, Amazon hasn't had any ad money from me at all.

Smoothing it out a bit, that's 50 months I've NOT done any advertising in, at potentially $1000 a month, which is a LOSS to Amazon of $50,000 just in advertising revenue.

Plus over the last year, my income has been sliding down badly, which is also a loss to Amazon.

Had Amazon not changed what worked in 2015 to get me started, and 2018 when I hit it out of the ballpark while using AMS, they'd be making a sh*t load more from me now than they do.

Now, when you factor in however many authors this is also true for, what is their actual Loss?

And they don't appear to care.


Genres: Space Opera/Fantasy/Cyberpunk, with elements of LitRPG and GameLit, with a touch of the Supernatural. Also Spiritual and Games.



Timothy Ellis Kindle Author page. | Join the Hunter Legacy mailing list | The Hunter Imperium Universe on Facebook. | Forum Promo Page.
 

LilyBLily

Re: What Amazon Needs To Change
« Reply #48 on: October 07, 2023, 11:57:18 PM »
As far as stopping Amazon ads because of increasing cost and decreasing effectiveness is concerned, at one time I was spending hundreds of dollars a month on these ads. They were profitable, too, so Amazon got another 30% off the top. I was happy, because many people were buying my books. Once Amazon changed its algos and the ads stopped being profitable for me, I stopped the ads. Today, I spend less than $10 a month on Amazon ads and they still make me a profit, but Amazon is missing out on my hundreds of dollars in direct ad spend and on its 30% cut on the much higher sales of a few years ago. Hundreds of dollars Amazon could have had from me every month. Thousands of dollars every year. Multiply that by many other dissatisfied Amazon ad customers who have stopped shoveling money into Amazon ads.

One of the confounding aspects of being an indie author--which totally shocks people outside this field--is that we cannot actually buy ads with the specificity that ads typically have in every other venue. We can't just buy an Amazon ad to be positioned in X place. We have to hope we have bought one, and we have no control over where it appears or if it appears at all. We can't just buy a BookBub ad. We have to pray we are selected for the honor--and hope the BB people don't show another book right before ours with the same licensed cover art. We can't just buy a Facebook ad and be sure it gets shown to the target audience. We can't just buy another discount newsletter ad and be sure it isn't cut off by an email server or a spam filter. And on and on. The craziness involved in advertising our published works is enough to discourage us from even trying.

Amazon could help by being a lot more straightforward about how it treats our proposed ads. Yes, each of us is a small fish, but collectively we are a substantial customer base. 
 
The following users thanked this post: R. C., littleauthor

Bill Hiatt

  • Trilogy unlocked
  • *****
  • Posts: 3839
  • Thanked: 1376 times
  • Gender: Male
  • Tickling the imagination one book at a time
    • Bill Hiatt's Author Website
Re: What Amazon Needs To Change
« Reply #49 on: October 08, 2023, 05:56:38 AM »
I'm still spending on Amazon ads, but I might quit at any time.

At the very beginning, they did better for me, though I did notice that newer ads performed better than old (for no apparent reason), so I rotated them periodically.

Even now ads, sell books, but it's pretty tough to get a positive ROI.

I've also noticed ups and downs in ad effectiveness for no particular reason. In most months, Amazon ads account for the majority of my sales. But every so often, I get a month in which the number of those sales declines for no obvious reason, only to rise again the following month. No change in ad spends, targeting, or anything. You'd expect some fluctuations, but not huge swings up and down.

It's possible that part of the problem is a growing number of authors in the system, which would tend to push bids up and reduce ROI. But it's hard to believe the AMS population keeps growing with no real incentive in terms of ad performance. And that wouldn't explain cuts in visibility. The number of authors wouldn't have caused the also-bought removal, the attempt to kill spikes (caused by outside promos), etc. I think there's little question that Amazon is tilting the scales against us, at least to some extent. It would make more profit if it didn't do that.


Tickling the imagination one book at a time
Bill Hiatt | fiction website | Facebook author page |