Website Update Issues

[Bill Hiatt]

I am in need of hive-mind advice on a particular issue. It may not affect anyone else, and it's possible no one else has experience with it, but I thought it was worth a shot.

I have self-hosted Wordpress using Bluehost.

My issue is on the backend. It's a cpanel site that was running on CENTOS 6. BH updated to CENTOS 7 some time back, but CENTOS 7 has been nearing end of life for a long time.

A while ago, I managed to switch from Centos to Cloud Linux 7 (BlueHost doesn't forbid the use of Cloud Linux, but it doesn't offer any update support, either.) Cloud Linux 7 is about to lose cpanel support.

Unlike updating an OS on your computer, which can be relatively easy, updating a server OS can be a real headache. Cloud Linux has designed an update pathway from CL 7 to CL 8. Hurray, that should be easy. But CL also recommends the operation only be attempted by an admin with advanced skills. That isn't me. And the introduction says basically, "This could work, but it could also blow up in your face and make your site inaccessible."

Of course, I have backups. But unlike backups of the computer, if the site is inaccessible, I have no way to restore from a backup. Hypothetically, Bluehost could, but my support experience hasn't been great with them. For a much simpler thing than this, I wasted hours before finally getting a solution from the third person I dealt with.

Logically, I should hire someone to do the job. But hiring someone for a CL serverside update doesn't seem to be a thing.

(As I type this, I realize it's ludicrous to expect anyone to have an answer to such a specific problem, but I've come so far that I might as well finish.)

Here's the only plan I can think of:

First, redirect my fans at the beginning of next month. Host a planned giveaway through the giveaway provider's own site. Link to Amazon rather than my own site for my new release. In other words, set things up so that my site could be down for days without creating an insurmountable problem.

Second, backup, recheck all the instructions, run the preupdate check. Fix what the preupdate check tells me to do (long, fiddly process, but probably doable)

Third, attempt the update. If it works, hurray! If it doesn't, then,

Fourth, work with Bluehost as long as it takes to get the thing back up. CL support and/or cpanel support may also have helpful hints.

Writing this is therapeutic in that I feel as if the worst case scenario is losing a lot of time. I can endure that.

An alternative course would be to switch hosts, in which case, I'd start with newer server software and not have to deal with the update issues. Downside is I have a three-year plan with BH, most of which still remains, so I'd lose a lot of money. I could do that if all else failed. (I'd also have a frontside backup, so I could migrate that part to another server.)

Anyone have any suggestions to improve upon that strategy?

Thanks for reading. 

[Matthew]

It's been too many years since I've worked with cPanel. The Backup Wizard should backup files, MySQL databases, and some email settings. From what I can tell, there is also a restore function that is available if you download backups individually rather than the full backup, which would allow you to restore things yourself without needing support (assuming you have a working cPanel). If you only have a full backup, you will need to contact Bluehost support.

There's often two different sorts of control panels. If your upgrade fails and cPanel no longer functions, somewhere else in your account you may have an option to reinstall the entire OS which should bring back cPanel, then you can restore from your backups.

A few questions for you:

• What's the actual End Of Life dated listed for Cloud Linux 7? Can you postpone trying any OS updates until sometime after your launch?
• Why did you switch to an unsupported operating system? Can you switch back to a supported operating system rather than just doing this upgrade?
• Have you considered fully-managed hosting? There are tons of providers, especially for WordPress, so you don't even need to worry about these OS upgrades or system updates. These are usually more expensive, but one call to a contractor may be more expensive than a year of managed hosting. (If you don't like Bluehost, perhaps you could ask for a pro-rated refund. Looks like they also have cloud, managed WP hosting which you could maybe ask to be migrated to, paying a difference in price as needed)

I'm not entirely sure what this upgrade process looks like. From what I can tell, it might involve logging into a shell and running a script. In which case, HERE BE DRAGONS. There are a lot of caveats. To do an OS upgrade from a shell (terminal) you would need admin (root) privileges. The danger is that you might copy/paste or type something incorrectly, and something breaks without you knowing how to fix it. (In which case, reinstall and restore).

run the preupdate check. Fix what the preupdate check tells me to do (long, fiddly process, but probably doable)

I don't know what this involves, but this step is where the danger of breaking things might start.

In general, your plan and order of operations sounds good to me.

HOWEVER I am honestly concerned about this process. I don't recommend you do this if you're not comfortable with the Linux command line. I found some documentation that may be the upgrade process, and it is full of warnings and caveats. E.g. you may need to fiddle with kernel modules and software repositories. That documentation doesn't actually show you how to do those steps, or how to read the log files the script is generating to know what action items you may need to take.

To that end, if you're looking to hire out this process you should probably look for a contractor "Linux System Administrator (sysadmin)." But that won't be cheap. So I maintain my stance of move to a supported operating system that Bluehost will keep up-to-date for you, or migrate to fully-managed Wordpress hosting.

Of course, given that the worst-case scenario is simply reinstall the OS and restore from backup, you could try to do the upgrade yourself anyway. Maybe it will work, and it sounds like a fun learning experience.

[Bill Hiatt]

A few questions for you:
What's the actual End Of Life dated listed for Cloud Linux 7? Can you postpone trying any OS updates until sometime after your launch?
Why did you switch to an unsupported operating system? Can you switch back to a supported operating system rather than just doing this upgrade?
Have you considered fully-managed hosting? There are tons of providers, especially for WordPress, so you don't even need to worry about these OS upgrades or system updates. These are usually more expensive, but one call to a contractor may be more expensive than a year of managed hosting. (If you don't like Bluehost, perhaps you could ask for a pro-rated refund. Looks like they also have cloud, managed WP hosting which you could maybe ask to be migrated to, paying a difference in price as needed)

For the first question, June 30, so yes, I could postpone. But really, my launch isn't that dependent on my website. And there is something to be said for getting the earliest start possible if there could be complications.

Second, well that's a good question. Bluehost seems to sit on old OS software for as long as they possible can. Their documentation still refers to CENTOS 7 when the current version is 8.5. And CENTOS 7 also loses cpanel support on June 30, but there's no reference to that in any Bluehost document. There is an unofficial update for an inplace  upgrade, but it looks just as fraught as the CL update. So even if I downgraded from CL to CENTOS (which might be marginally less fraught), I'd still be a little less than three months before end of life with no clear path forward. But at least that situation would be recognizable to Bluehost.

As I recall, I did the switch from CENTOS to CL thinking that I was getting CL 8, which would have gotten me out of the update box for a much longer time. The change from CENTOS 7 to CL 7 wasn't fraught at all, but it didn't get me where I wanted to be.

Also, the commonplace suggestion at the time (and still, for that matter) is to migrate to another server (!?). If you're a business with a large IT department, great. But someone like me is dependent on the hosting provider--unless I want to switch providers. I have no problem with Bluehost normal operations, but their support is a little...less than one might want. Switching from a lesser plan to VPS resulted in a downgrade of my PHP version (all the way down to one that was barely supported anymore). Easy fix, but still not something that should have happened. And support wouldn't have figured it out if I hadn't pointed it out to them.

I'm pretty sure there is no prorated refund, but maybe I actually would be better off shifting providers. That is a hassle in itself, but some of the better ones offer a free migration that might well be worth it.

Anyway, I have to go now, but thanks for the advice.

[Post-Crisis D]

Wouldn't turning off any automated updates on cpanel resolve the issue until BlueHost updates to CENTOS 8?  Unless cpanel is a subscription now, if they drop support for older OSes on June 30th, that should mean they are just not going to be releasing any updates for it.  The current version should continue to run until BH updates to CENTOS 8 or until you update Cloud Linux 7 to whatever.

[Matthew]

Just wanted to further address some things

Second, well that's a good question. Bluehost seems to sit on old OS software for as long as they possible can. Their documentation still refers to CENTOS 7 when the current version is 8.5. And CENTOS 7 also loses cpanel support on June 30, but there's no reference to that in any Bluehost document. There is an unofficial update for an inplace  upgrade, but it looks just as fraught as the CL update. So even if I downgraded from CL to CENTOS (which might be marginally less fraught), I'd still be a little less than three months before end of life with no clear path forward. But at least that situation would be recognizable to Bluehost.

I still work in a software-adjacent job, and let me tell you that this is fairly normal. If you're using the Bluehost-recommended OS (CentOS 7), and they're managing the upgrades, they'll figure out how to migrate you to a new version themselves before the deadline. At my current job, we get notified of EOL (end of life) software 6 months out, and try to do all upgrades within 3 months, but we've had some with only a week to spare. Still, it shouldn't be your job as a customer to be worrying about this.

Also, the commonplace suggestion at the time (and still, for that matter) is to migrate to another server (!?). If you're a business with a large IT department, great. But someone like me is dependent on the hosting provider--unless I want to switch providers. I have no problem with Bluehost normal operations, but their support is a little...less than one might want. Switching from a lesser plan to VPS resulted in a downgrade of my PHP version (all the way down to one that was barely supported anymore). Easy fix, but still not something that should have happened. And support wouldn't have figured it out if I hadn't pointed it out to them.

Unless you absolutely need a new OS version, there's no reason to even move to a new provider. Regarding the VPS, well, that doesn't surprise me. But with most providers they give you many versions of Linux to choose from. The way Linux typically works is a lot of the software repositories (where you download software from) are kinda locked to specific major versions of software. So if you want updates, you have to upgrade the entire OS to a new version. However, these operating system maintainers have guaranteed EOL dates, and will support all the software until the specified date (though there's no guarantee some third party software you're using, like WordPress won't need a more updated version). There are some tricks around this, such as using 3rd party sources for updated software packages or delving into the realm of containerization. But anyway, unless you need a specific version of PHP for some feature (or to meet the requirements to run WP at all), it's not something that's that important. I will also say that usually a VPS is completely unmanaged and you as a customer are expected to handle all aspects of it, though not always.

[R. C.]

What Matthew said with one addition...  Because I know the value of investment momentum, you paid for a service, this is commentary.

I dumped Bluehost a couple of years ago because of issues similar to what is described.  I went with Siteground and have had very few issues. For the issues I have experienced, their support helped me correct in minutes.

R.C.

[Bill Hiatt]

Wouldn't turning off any automated updates on cpanel resolve the issue until BlueHost updates to CENTOS 8?  Unless cpanel is a subscription now, if they drop support for older OSes on June 30th, that should mean they are just not going to be releasing any updates for it.  The current version should continue to run until BH updates to CENTOS 8 or until you update Cloud Linux 7 to whatever.

Here's the message:

cPanel & WHM version 110 will be the last version that supports CloudLinux™ 7. Support for version 110 will end June 30, 2024. We encourage you to migrate to a server running AlmaLinux 8, Rocky Linux 8, or CloudLinux™ 8 before June 30, 2024.

In other words, I turned off updates for cpanel months ago. (The current version is 118.0.4.) Cpanel provided a channel for updates to 110, which I have frequently received. But that channel now seems to be gone, and instead I'm told update to 118.0.4 has been blocked (from my end). In other words, June 30 is the end of the runway, period. We've already had the continuation of the old version for as long as we're going to get it.

[Bill Hiatt]

Unless you absolutely need a new OS version, there's no reason to even move to a new provider. Regarding the VPS, well, that doesn't surprise me. But with most providers they give you many versions of Linux to choose from. The way Linux typically works is a lot of the software repositories (where you download software from) are kinda locked to specific major versions of software. So if you want updates, you have to upgrade the entire OS to a new version. However, these operating system maintainers have guaranteed EOL dates, and will support all the software until the specified date (though there's no guarantee some third party software you're using, like WordPress won't need a more updated version). There are some tricks around this, such as using 3rd party sources for updated software packages or delving into the realm of containerization. But anyway, unless you need a specific version of PHP for some feature (or to meet the requirements to run WP at all), it's not something that's that important. I will also say that usually a VPS is completely unmanaged and you as a customer are expected to handle all aspects of it, though not always.

Though I'm not entirely ignorant about servers, as you can tell, my experience isn't anywhere nearly as great as yours, so pardon me if this is an obvious question.

Your statement makes it sound a little as if OS updates are relatively trivial. I was kind of assuming they were a bigger deal than that. And it irked me that BH updated me from CENTOS 6 to 7 when 8 was already available. By the way, BH didn't notify me of the impending CENTOS 6 end of life. I had to ask support about it, and the tech was happy to schedule it, but if I hadn't said something, I'm not sure when (or if) it would have happened. That goes along with your last statement about VPS being unmanaged.

Anyway, that is kind of why I switched to Cloud Linux (which seems like a stupid thing to have done, though at the time it made sens). That's particularly true because it looked at the time as if CENTOS was going away in favor of something called CENTOS Stream. For example,

CentOS Linux 8 will reach end-of-life on December 31, 2021. No further updates will be available after that. The moment a security update comes out in 2022, you are at risk with CentOS Linux 8 from that point on.

You should absolutely have migrated well before this date to something else.

Some candidates for CentOS Linux 8 alternatives include:

* CentOS Stream
* RHEL (no-cost subscriptions)
* Alma Linux
* Rocky Linux
* Springdale Linux (formerly PUIAS)
* Oracle Linux

https://forums.centos.org/viewtopic.php?t=78026
And I said to myself, oh, that's why BH didn't update me to CENTOS 8, because it's going away. (Even CENTOS Stream is being replaced by Red Hat Enterprise Linux, though I didn't hear about this at the time.

This and several other posts I read during the time period gave me the impression that the various Linux varieties were more or less interchangeable. (And indeed, though I've now found a false statement buried on the BH website about updates to other Linux distributions being incompatible with BH hosted sites, BH didn't really seem to address the question) Not anticipating the bind that I'm now in, switching OS made sense, and CL had a script specifically designed for it, which did indeed get the job done.

Anyway, here are my options:
Try to revert to CENTOS 7 and let BH update to whatever its next preference is. There may be risks to reverting. There was a script at the time, but the site has changed a lot since then, so who knows? Also, BH takes a long time doing this sort of thing. It's not as fast as I could do on my own--if there were no issues.

Try to update CL 7 to CL 8. As Matthew has noted, that can be risky.

Dump the whole thing and just use Substack. Though it has a lot of features, it's too soon for me to make that radical a change. I see it as a supplement rather than a replacement (though since it's free, it would be an incredible savings).

Switch providers. Honestly, the only downside there is losing about a year's worth of hosting I've already paid for.

I've looked at Siteground, which, as RC suggests, has a fine reputation. I've also looked at A2 Hosting, which I'm leaning toward. It uses both cpanel and Cloud Linux, so the transition would be slightly more seamless than with Siteground. The Cloudflare integrartion also seems a little more straightforward. But what really draws my eye is that A2 
offers Managed VPS. (BH seems to have managed plans only with shared hosting, which is much slower.) Though A2 also allows clients to have root access (which is handy on occasion), the managed ecosystem would completely avoid the problem I'm having now. Also, A2's managed VPS is cheaper than comparable unmanaged VPS on BH, even ignoring the new customer discount. A switch now would lose money in the short-term, but in the long-term, I'd be saving.

Anyway, I have a little more time to contemplate. I'm planning on arranging things so that everything I need in May is offsite, just in case. A2 and Siteground both offer free migration, which should be smooth, but in case there's a glitch, I'll avoid a lot of unexpected end user downtime.

Thanks for all the help!
 

[Matthew]

Your statement makes it sound a little as if OS updates are relatively trivial. I was kind of assuming they were a bigger deal than that. And it irked me that BH updated me from CENTOS 6 to 7 when 8 was already available. By the way, BH didn't notify me of the impending CENTOS 6 end of life. I had to ask support about it, and the tech was happy to schedule it, but if I hadn't said something, I'm not sure when (or if) it would have happened. That goes along with your last statement about VPS being unmanaged.

It's all a bit complicated. It's hard to define specific terms, because we may use things interchangeably when we don't mean to (myself included, apologies). Linux Server OSes receive regular updates for bug fixes and security. These are trivial to run and install. Also, if your flavor of Linux ships with say, PHP 8.1 and you want to upgrade to 8.3, it will take some additional configuration, but you can do that (although it may not be necessary to do so unless WordPress needs a specific version you aren't running). Major version upgrades (CentOS 7 -> 8 for instance) are the updates that are less trivial, and is generally something you want to do a complete backup for.

This and several other posts I read during the time period gave me the impression that the various Linux varieties were more or less interchangeable. (And indeed, though I've now found a false statement buried on the BH website about updates to other Linux distributions being incompatible with BH hosted sites, BH didn't really seem to address the question) Not anticipating the bind that I'm now in, switching OS made sense, and CL had a script specifically designed for it, which did indeed get the job done.

I think your case seems to be more interesting. I don't think you necessarily made the wrong choice, judging by your comments here after the fact. CentOS moved away from a Long Term Release model, and some projects aim to be essentially identically compatible (such as Alma and Rocky). All Linuxes are similar, but they are often different in big ways. Most of the command-line commands are the same (and how the OS functions), but some of the software may be drastically different. The technical details are more complicated and unimportant, but unless some version of Linux is actually designed to be compatible with another, it will not be. You have run a script that did a LOT of changes under the hood to convert it to CloudLinux. There is probably no way to go back to CentOS without completely reinstalling. (Which at this point, I would not recommend CentOS)

For your situation specifically, it looks like you will get some critical security updates for a while longer, so it may not be as important for you to do this immediately: https://blog.cloudlinux.com/navigating-change-cloudlinux-6-7-end-of-life-and-migration-strategies#:~:text=Effective%20July%201st%2C%202024%2C%20CloudLinux,additional%20time%20to%20plan%20migrations.

I think I might have misunderstood a little about your specific situation. If Bluehost's VPS is managed (and that's the plan you have), I would say they're doing a pretty bad job of it. However, I have also seen this before where they consider it "managed" only insofar as you create a support ticket requesting they perform some task, otherwise they leave the server alone (including never running any updates). In some cases, this may be considered dangerous if they don't even run security updates. Some versions of Linux may automatically run security updates for you (Ubuntu Server), though they will never do a major version update automatically. For any VPS, managed or unmanaged, I would not expect the provider to do a full major version OS upgrade without you explicitly asking. My question here is, if you're on a VPS plan, did they have specific Linux versions they said they would support? Did they also promise to do major version updates?

What feels like happened is they lured you in with the promise of VPS meaning better performance without accurately informing you it would require more work on your part to maintain everything.

Let's talk options. Figure out what you really need or want. Do you specifically need all that CPanel provides? Do you need/want all of the features WordPress provides? Switching from WordPress to Substack I'm guessing will be a downgrade in features. If all you are using your website for is as a blog, it may be acceptable (caveat: I haven't looked into Substack too much).

Even if a VPS is managed, I would recommend against them without the technical knowledge and time investment. As you can see, you just have to be concerned about all of these things that's getting in the way of you just having your website. I would recommend a webhost or plan where all you have to do is make sure your plugins are updated, and the hosting provider does all the OS, PHP, and WordPress updates seamlessly in the background.

Sorry you have to deal with all this. It's a pain.

[Post-Crisis D]

I would recommend a webhost or plan where all you have to do is make sure your plugins are updated, and the hosting provider does all the OS, PHP, and WordPress updates seamlessly in the background.

THIS. 

When I host a site on my own servers, I need to worry about the OS and all the other stuff.

When I have a site hosted on someone else's server, I only need to worry about the stuff (like WordPress, WP plug-ins, PHP code, etc.) that I upload to build my site.  I don't need to worry about what OS the server has (except for when I need to run something that requires something specific) or what version of cPanel or webAdmin or whatever it has.

[Bill Hiatt]

To be clear, the VPS plan I have with BH is unmanaged. But if there are certain things they want to have control of, like updating the OS only in a particular way, then they probably should do it more efficiently.

I like Wordpress and want to keep it, at least until I decide I no longer need a separate author website. That said, I might well counsel new authors on small budgets to consider Substack as a viable blog replacement. There aren't as many choices in terms of format and layout, but you can do all the basic things you need to have at least a reasonably clear and attractive layout.  I'm trying a book page now to see how well it works.

The one obvious constraint is that Substack doesn't expect to be merely a platform on which to advertise other sites. It certainly doesn't prohibit authors from advertising sales, new releases, etc. It also allow book pages to become part of your Substack. But the emphasis is on quality content creation for Substack audiences. That's the focus of the newsletter, and SS makes it quite clear that it will close accounts if someone is just promoting another business there. So yes, Substack is free to use as a blogging platform, even if you don't have paid subscriptions from which Substack can take a cut. But especially in such a case, you need to put your time in contributing to the community in various ways. That's not an unreasonable requirement, but there is a time commitment involved.

[Bill Hiatt]

Update: I asked some presale questions of A2 Hosting and got answers back in a very short time. Same with follow-up for clarification.

I was particularly interesting in stuff that might screw up a migration, but they were able to put all my fears to rest.

Not only does switching hosts solve the Cloud Linux update issue (which is now meriting a link directly to the update script at the top of my cpanel dashboard) but it also solves a potential issue with Cloudflare. CF's more flexible packages require that you use their nameservers. Bluehost, while not forbidding the practice, clearly doesn't like it. There's even a request to correct the nameserver discrepancy buried deep in cpanel. Though it hasn't proved problematic yet, it might at some future point.

In contrast, A2 Hosting fully supports this kind of Bluehost arrangement and even explains how to set it up for someone doing it for the first time.

As far as costs are concerned, spending the same amount of money gets me a slightly better setup. I'll lose the money for the rest of my current BH term, but I won't have to risk blowing up my site over the CL update. Also, I'll be in a managed plan, so I'll never have to worry about OS updates again.

[Lynn]

Sounds like a good change, then. Good luck!