I think it's just a busy time of the year
I'm still here.And there really is nowhere else to post. I wouldn't touch that other place with something much taller than a ten-foot Pole and any Pole I know has better taste anyway. (Sorry. It's the holidays. Put that down to liquor)
It feels like it is getting slower and slower here each month. Which makes me sad since we have such a nice bunch of people here.
I'm not sure it's because of the time of year. People, no matter how busy, tend to get chatty around the holidays. So I don't know what's going on here, but I know the "other place" has been lobotomized (interesting threads get locked by Becca--sorry Becca, it's true). It's mostly newbies now who've discovered the polling option.I don't visit the other place very often anymore. Occasionally, I glance at the threads on the first page. I know some of the experienced posters still add content to threads, but very few of them seem to start threads. Most of the new creations are from people whose names I don't recognize.
...something about Writing 101. Which I think most of us here are way beyond.
I haven't published in two years and my income is still holding at a decent level for needed supplemental retirement income.
I'm still here.
It feels like it is getting slower and slower here each month. Which makes me sad since we have such a nice bunch of people here.
I don't post at KB anymore. But that's because I'm on post moderation. :)
There's not a flood of people trying to get rich quick in indie publishing like there was years ago.
I check here daily.And thinking about Silver Enigma?
But I'm also writing a hell of a lot of fiction and renovating a house.
I haven't really done much new regarding pricing & promos & ads so nothing to report there. (I *am* reducing the price of 9/10ths of my main series to 99c for 7 days next week. I'm working like crazy to finish a was-25k-now-40k newletter magnet promo novella for inclusion in said books.)
"We did have a dummy spit here back Octoberish, so I suspect we lost a few people over that," and you can see that there's a tendency not to 'rock the boat, or post anything that might result in disagreement.
Our launch point was the desire to leave KB behind. We've done that and unless we find another draw, we'll stagnate. I see other KB people have come on board and that's good. I think this is going to be a slow growth forum, but it will grow.
about how no one should expect to earn a living from writing where a large number of the regular posters on here agreed.
And there are a few very frequent, very vocal participants here who I would not expose newbies to because they wouldn't have the ability to see through the bullsh*t.
And honestly, the animosity towards the other place just needs to go if you want to attract a new membership. A lot of the most successful names here still post there, too.
And thinking about Silver Enigma?
I don't post at KB anymore. But that's because I'm on post moderation. :)Don't leave us hanging. Tell us the story. :icon_mrgreen:
The general zeitgeist in indie publishing is pretty sad. Google "self-publishing" how-to's, or any phrase you might have used when your journey into indie publishing began, and you'll be clobbered with "Make Money Self Publishing!" nonsense, with every bullet-point from KB featured in their "secret formulas to success". Maybe the forum topper should read "Make Money Self-Publishing!!!"
I have to say no it isn't. I'm am in a few that are very positive.The general zeitgeist in indie publishing is pretty sad. Google "self-publishing" how-to's, or any phrase you might have used when your journey into indie publishing began, and you'll be clobbered with "Make Money Self Publishing!" nonsense, with every bullet-point from KB featured in their "secret formulas to success". Maybe the forum topper should read "Make Money Self-Publishing!!!"
It also feels a lot less hopeful these days. I mean, I hear of successes but I don't hear a lot of joy around those stories like in the "old days". Discussions are often tinged with hopelessness. Am I delusional or is that vibe real everywhere writers hang out these days?
Maybe people would rather hole up and not deal with that. I know that feeling. :D I try not to hang around anywhere that I leave feeling less hopeful than when I arrived. The death of hope is pretty much the death of everything. Without it, it's hard to get through life.
I hope you a feeling better Lynn.
I think you are right about the hopelessness, Lynn, but that's because a lot (too many?) people have jumped on the bandwagon. There are too many people offering their *Guide to Self Publishing Success* that, when others fail, it leaves a bitter taste in their mouth. Shoe is right, there. And I won't mention any names of these "dream sellers".
But offering supplies isn't a scam. Those miners needed supplies just like we need cover designers, editors, proofreaders, etc. Of course, there were some scammers then and there are people offering services who aren't qualified. It takes a little work to separate the wheat from the chaff.I think you are right about the hopelessness, Lynn, but that's because a lot (too many?) people have jumped on the bandwagon. There are too many people offering their *Guide to Self Publishing Success* that, when others fail, it leaves a bitter taste in their mouth. Shoe is right, there. And I won't mention any names of these "dream sellers".
It always reminds me of the California Gold Rush stories I used to read, where the only people who really came out to the good were the suppliers, not the miners. :D So I always look at anyone offering any service a bit like I would look at a scam artist.
I know that sounds cynical, but it helps me differentiate what I really can use and what's just there to make someone else money off my hard work. :D
But offering supplies isn't a scam.
If you're thinking about the two big groups I am. In theory I don't think there is anything wrong with their programs. The ideas are capable of producing profits. The problem is not everyone can be rich/profitable. The market isn't big enough to support a million new books a year (no idea how many authors that breaks down too) that are dumped on amazon. The numbers just aren't there. You will get a % of people it works for but everyone it's literally impossible. You would need to get 50% of the population reading on a regular basis if not more to support that.
But offering supplies isn't a scam.
It depends... It could just be me but I don't want non-vetted vendors hitting the forum offering $0.02 per word editing or any other service. I want tips from successful authors on where to go for editing or covers, newsletter promotions, or whatever else I might need as an indie.
The same goes for the "mavens" peddling how-to books in their signatures. KB is a fan-forum for several self-publishing gurus. I'm sure they're well-intentioned (not really), but they're responsible for 70% of the crap that gets uploaded to Amazon. There's no shortage of indies with books ranking in the millions who swear by them.
I don't agree. I think there should be both. I am fine with people offering their services. Most list whether they have referrals and list who has used their work. And someone might want to try out someone new or else we'll never have new, and probably lower-priced, services for those who can't afford the high end. I'm also happy to see when someone says who has done a great job for them in a post.
But offering supplies isn't a scam.
It depends... It could just be me but I don't want non-vetted vendors hitting the forum offering $0.02 per word editing or any other service. I want tips from successful authors on where to go for editing or covers, newsletter promotions, or whatever else I might need as an indie.
The same goes for the "mavens" peddling how-to books in their signatures. KB is a fan-forum for several self-publishing gurus. I'm sure they're well-intentioned (not really), but they're responsible for 70% of the crap that gets uploaded to Amazon. There's no shortage of indies with books ranking in the millions who swear by them.
I am fine with people offering their services.
no one should expect to earn a living from writing
Also, when people started out, made some success, and announced it with joy (over at The Other Place, I mean) they often found that their 5* reviews were down voted, 1* reviews started appearing, and the jealous and the twisted did their best to shoot them down. Small wonder that they either shut up, or moved on.
no one should expect to earn a living from writing
"No one?" I've never seen that said here, and I find it hard to believe everyone on a thread said it. Too many people here do make a living.
However, there's nothing wrong with hoping, trying, or working toward, and no reason to discourage anyone from any of those things.
utting on my teacher hat, I think the trick is to discuss the work, not the person. Maybe the aspiring writing in fact has no talent, but it's also possible there is some that could be brought out by the proper training and experience. In any case, someone who asks for help on writing is not asking for that writing to be evaluated as some kind of measure of intelligence.
However, there's nothing wrong with hoping, trying, or working toward, and no reason to discourage anyone from any of those things.
I dunno... Someone posted a blurb for critique the other day (not here) that was so incredibly awful I nearly revisited my breakfast. It was beyond hope. There was no sign that working harder was in the cards. What's a boy to do? Nothing, in my case, but others offered helpful insight and advice, keeping in line with the forum's "let's put a kettle on" spirit.
I think it points to the real problem in indie publishing. Indies face no barrier to entry (someone on this board once said "If I can write my name, I'm a writer"). There are no gatekeepers to qualify aspirants nor is there a structured apprenticeship. We have people who have never read outside their genre or taken a writing course writing books. It doesn't mean the odd author here and there won't have great success, but most won't, and they'll suffer a sense of entitlement. They've written a book, after all, and took Mark Dawson's publishing courses and read Chris Fox's books. Where is their success?
Maybe it's a question of tweaking a cover or blurb or changing the title or category. They're open to suggestions on those fronts. But suggesting they lack talent is verboten, which seems a bit askew.
On the other hand, there are authors who sell one hell of a lot of novels whom I personally happen to consider talentless hacks. But their readers obviously disagree.I've had the experience of starting to read something by a popular author and then wondering why the person was popular. Part of the problem is that a large part of our reaction to literature is a matter of taste. I've come to realize that, just because I don't like something, it doesn't mean it's bad. It's just not right for me.
I am pretty sure that the majority of authors who do well never took a writing course or only did after they were writing and selling. I am high on the list of people who think that an MFA is a major waste of time and money if you want to be a writer.
Damned if I know what makes a good or a successful writer. Whether at least some other people like reading your work enough to pay for it? And how does one figure out if that is them until they put a few books out there? 🤷
On the other hand, there are authors who sell one hell of a lot of novels whom I personally happen to consider talentless hacks. But their readers obviously disagree.
I am pretty sure that the majority of authors who do well never took a writing course or only did after they were writing and selling. I am high on the list of people who think that an MFA is a major waste of time and money if you want to be a writer.
Damned if I know what makes a good or a successful writer. Whether at least some other people like reading your work enough to pay for it? And how does one figure out if that is them until they put a few books out there? 🤷
This was the thread I was thinking of: https://writersanctum.com/index.php?topic=2220.msg41557#msg41557
People can quibble with my interpretation of what was said, but the bottom line for me is that if someone came to me and said I have this dream of being a writer, this is not where I'd send them for encouragement. The tone of that thread is nothing like the tone of KB back in the day and maybe that's just from shifts in the market and people learning that, no, not everyone can do well at this. But improbable dreams require a tremendous amount of effort and will to achieve and surrounding people who want that with those who will tell them about how unlikely they are to get there every step of the way makes it ten times harder to get there. Another reason I will probably be bowing out of this place and the other one for 2020 as much as I can manage.
This was the thread I was thinking of: https://writersanctum.com/index.php?topic=2220.msg41557#msg41557I reacted very differently to that thread. It was very sympathetic to the man who said he was quitting because it wasn't any fun anymore and very realistic that most authors don't make a living from it. But the "you can't make a living" comment was a quote from a blog.
People can quibble with my interpretation of what was said, but the bottom line for me is that if someone came to me and said I have this dream of being a writer, this is not where I'd send them for encouragement. The tone of that thread is nothing like the tone of KB back in the day and maybe that's just from shifts in the market and people learning that, no, not everyone can do well at this. But improbable dreams require a tremendous amount of effort and will to achieve and surrounding people who want that with those who will tell them about how unlikely they are to get there every step of the way makes it ten times harder to get there. Another reason I will probably be bowing out of this place and the other one for 2020 as much as I can manage.
The first time someone told me my blurb sucked, I actually shed a few tears, but he was right and I am grateful every time I sell a copy of that book that he had the courage and cared enough to tell me the truth.
This was the thread I was thinking of: https://writersanctum.com/index.php?topic=2220.msg41557#msg41557I think there's a considerable difference between telling someone it's impossible and telling someone it's unlikely, but that they should try if they are willing to put in the time and effort.
People can quibble with my interpretation of what was said, but the bottom line for me is that if someone came to me and said I have this dream of being a writer, this is not where I'd send them for encouragement. The tone of that thread is nothing like the tone of KB back in the day and maybe that's just from shifts in the market and people learning that, no, not everyone can do well at this. But improbable dreams require a tremendous amount of effort and will to achieve and surrounding people who want that with those who will tell them about how unlikely they are to get there every step of the way makes it ten times harder to get there. Another reason I will probably be bowing out of this place and the other one for 2020 as much as I can manage.
While I cannot stand to read either. It is a matter of personal taste. I can't say I agree on MFA programs. They are more likely to ruin someone who started out not tone deaf. But then for years, they taught and many still teach what you refer to as 'New Yorker fiction' which isn't a bad description of it. But those who like that sort of fiction (there must be some out there) would disagree with me, wouldn't they?The first time someone told me my blurb sucked, I actually shed a few tears, but he was right and I am grateful every time I sell a copy of that book that he had the courage and cared enough to tell me the truth.
Years ago I belonged to a critique forum. You had to provide samples of your writing before they'd let you in, and it took me several tries to get through the gate. I quickly learned you needed a suit of armor to survive, but man, it was worth it. I did leave in a huff a couple of times (how dare they say my writing was "sentimental"?), but always went back. After a couple of years, the owner tired of maintaining the site and it closed. A few of its former members have become well known in journalism (it wasn't a fiction workshop). I consider that period part of my "apprenticeship".
MFAs: I doubt they do much for those with zero innate writing talent other than improve their "craft", but craft will not by itself make a great writer. I look at it this way--music is my first passion, and I can play a couple of instruments convincingly, but in truth, I suck (considering the hours I've put into practice). So I know better than to pursue music as a career. My biggest handicap is I'm officially tone-deaf. When I play, I do not understand where to head tonally.
I think a lot of writers are tone-deaf when it comes to their writing. No matter how well they construct their sentences and stories, they don't go anywhere (which is reminiscent of New Yorker fiction in the Nineties). It doesn't necessarily mean they won't find success writing but, borrowing from the musical analogy above, they shouldn't expect to play Carnegie Hall (though they might be welcome in the church choir).
Dan Brown and the late Tom Clancy aren't regarded for their literary talents, but they sure how to set strike a tone that invites you to sit in a comfortable chair and turn page after page.
However, there's nothing wrong with hoping, trying, or working toward, and no reason to discourage anyone from any of those things.
I dunno... Someone posted a blurb for critique the other day (not here) that was so incredibly awful I nearly revisited my breakfast. It was beyond hope. There was no sign that working harder was in the cards. What's a boy to do? Nothing, in my case, but others offered helpful insight and advice, keeping in line with the forum's "let's put a kettle on" spirit.
I think it points to the real problem in indie publishing. Indies face no barrier to entry (someone on this board once said "If I can write my name, I'm a writer"). There are no gatekeepers to qualify aspirants nor is there a structured apprenticeship. We have people who have never read outside their genre or taken a writing course writing books. It doesn't mean the odd author here and there won't have great success, but most won't, and they'll suffer a sense of entitlement. They've written a book, after all, and took Mark Dawson's publishing courses and read Chris Fox's books. Where is their success?
Maybe it's a question of tweaking a cover or blurb or changing the title or category. They're open to suggestions on those fronts. But suggesting they lack talent is verboten, which seems a bit askew.
I don't often post here but I always check in to see what is going on. I'm not successful enough to feel like I can answer most of the questions about making it in the writing and publishing world so I don't chime in with many answers.I'm not as upset with Amazon starting their own publishing houses as I am with the fact that those are gradually fitting themselves more and more into a traditional model.
It doesn't seem like there is as much news or change in the business as there used to be back a few years ago so perhaps there isn't, likewise, a need for as much discussion.
I think Amazon now has a clamp on both the selling side and the advertising side of publishing and they make sure that nothing will work without them getting most of the $$$ benefit. And if an author does show promise Amazon signs them up to one of their in house pub co's and we never hear from them again. Which to me seems funny, not funny ha-ha but funny that kind of stinks, that a company can make its success on the back of writers daring to go against the then trad-pubs-ass-kiss-your-way-to-success-method and then start their own publishing houses. How ironic and sort of even sad. But it won't stop me from trying to tell a good story, and, at least, trying to sell a few copies hoping my story might make a better day for somebody.
All of that said, I also just like being in the company of other writers, I feel like I kind of get them.
I'm just going to come out and ask, was there a big exodus sometime around October?
I was posting, had a birthday and didn't post for a few days because I was busy, came back and found that a lot of posters I was used to seeing post weren't posting anymore.
??
Now the place is barely limping along.
:(
Maybe I shouldn't ask, but I figured why not. I'd rather not see the forum die off just when I finally start posting again myself! :D
Shoe made a comment about the low barriers to entry that has caused a flood of books to hit Amazon. That flood has made visibility harder, but it was that flood that got me publishing my own stories. I've referred to it as the democratization of publishing, but the end result is that nowadays, KDP and Amazon are the slush pile, and readers are the unfortunate curators of that process.Yes, KDP did democratize publishing, but I'm not sure I agree with you completely about the end result.
I'm not as upset with Amazon starting their own publishing houses as I am with the fact that those are gradually fitting themselves more and more into a traditional model.There was a news release a couple of years back when they hired an editor from deep in the bowels of the NYC system, and I thought, oops, there goes discovery of indie authors for Amazon imprints. A year after that, Konrath mentioned on his blog that he had his agent submit to them, and I realized my worst fears had come true that quickly. Also, I have a friend in the KU bonuses stratosphere who never got an offer from Zon, which two years before, would definitely have happened.
I've referred to it as the democratization of publishing, but the end result is that nowadays, KDP and Amazon are the slush pile, and readers are the unfortunate curators of that process.
Like JRTomlin, I'm expecting the end for my FT status one year soon. That I got so many years is something of a miracle, and I'm grateful I jumped into KDP when I did.I'm going to go out on a limb and predict that people who are able to make a full-time living will continue to do so, or at least come close. I think it's more likely people in the range below that will lose the most if the conditions become more difficult. I also think that breaking in will become more difficult.
I can't say that I am 'expecting' it, just aware that it could happen. And hoping it doesn't.Like JRTomlin, I'm expecting the end for my FT status one year soon. That I got so many years is something of a miracle, and I'm grateful I jumped into KDP when I did.I'm going to go out on a limb and predict that people who are able to make a full-time living will continue to do so, or at least come close. I think it's more likely people in the range below that will lose the most if the conditions become more difficult. I also think that breaking in will become more difficult.
The ebook market will find a new equilibrium
The ebook market will find a new equilibrium
I've sensed a downward shift in the quality of new arrivals on some forums, and someone recently highlighted the falling metrics of KB since 2013. Maybe the field for qualified indies is becoming less crowded.
"The quality of new arrivals" WOW :n2Str17:
The ebook market will find a new equilibrium
I've sensed a downward shift in the quality of new arrivals on some forums, and someone recently highlighted the falling metrics of KB since 2013. Maybe the field for qualified indies is becoming less crowded.
Although I'm fairly sure I was full of dumb questions about self-publishing five years ago
I'm speculating, but I suspect the first people to use KDP were writing-in-the-bones types. No one knew if it'd pay but that wasn't their primary purpose in getting their books out.
I haven't been posting here for a while. I'm not sympathy trolling, but we lost both of our dogs about 9 months apart (both this year) and losing the last one cut deep.
I haven't been posting here for a while. I'm not sympathy trolling, but we lost both of our dogs about 9 months apart (both this year) and losing the last one cut deep.
All my sympathy. Losing the dog of my heart a couple of years ago had pretty much the same effect on me for more than a year.
I haven't been posting here for a while. I'm not sympathy trolling, but we lost both of our dogs about 9 months apart (both this year) and losing the last one cut deep. My wife and I are adjusting to post-dog life.
I haven't been posting here for a while. I'm not sympathy trolling, but we lost both of our dogs about 9 months apart (both this year) and losing the last one cut deep.
I haven't been posting here for a while. I'm not sympathy trolling, but we lost both of our dogs about 9 months apart (both this year) and losing the last one cut deep. My wife and I are adjusting to post-dog life. I haven't been writing either. I don't have anything to say, either here or on paper.
When I do, I will.
::: returns to the shadows :::
I was also someone who felt the irresistible need to write.I'm speculating, but I suspect the first people to use KDP were writing-in-the-bones types. No one knew if it'd pay but that wasn't their primary purpose in getting their books out.
I wasn't in the first wave, or the second, but getting the books out of my head was my motivation for writing. It was that or go insane. Mind you, I'm not sure if anyone could tell the difference.
It was never about the money. Even though when I started, it was already proved there was money to be made. But I wasn't even looking at that, just concentrating on getting the stuff out of my head.
I tend to think people starting writing for the money have the wrong motivation. But that's just me.
I'm curious as to what other endeavors you are up to, if you are willing to divulge.
Oh do you do your own audio? Cool. I wish I could do that but I sound like a whiny four year old on tape.
That's true. Our own voice never sounds the same to us as it does to everybody else. Hearing our recorded voice takes getting used to.Oh do you do your own audio? Cool. I wish I could do that but I sound like a whiny four year old on tape.
Yeah. Plus, I'm a trained actor so that helps. A lot. You probably don't sound as bad as you think. Everyone has to adjust to the sound of their own voice.
:banana-riding-llama-smiley-em <---love this guy.
If I still answered the phone I'm sure they would still be asking to talk to my parents. That happened well into my thirties. :banana-riding-llama-smiley-em The llama looks happy but what happened to his ears?!
I don't actually have a problem with people whose primary motivation is financial.
If I still answered the phone I'm sure they would still be asking to talk to my parents. That happened well into my thirties.
I agree with you completely when you talk about your own motivation. I think you and I are quite similar in that way. I write what I want to write and hope someone will want to read it. I wouldn't necessarily jump on a popular bandwagon unless I felt
I don't actually have a problem with people whose primary motivation is financial.
I suppose I have trouble agreeing. When I write, my driver is what I want to say, not what will people want to read. I just trust that what I have to say will sync with enough people to give me a viable market. If I sit down and ask myself what will make the most money, my writing and novels won't be anything like what I actually now produce. And I would go from loving to hating the writing process.
The market for non-fiction is much larger than fiction's. One could probably write 100 fifty-page how-to guides in the time it takes to write a novel. Why don't the purely money-motivated focus there? Maybe they didn't get the memo (or look at the Warrior Forum).
But I'm sure there are loads of people who have an equal passion for both writing and money. I wonder if they're the ones clocking in at $100k a year plus.
I'm speculating, but I suspect the first people to use KDP were writing-in-the-bones types. No one knew if it'd pay but that wasn't their primary purpose in getting their books out.
I wasn't in the first wave, or the second, but getting the books out of my head was my motivation for writing. It was that or go insane. Mind you, I'm not sure if anyone could tell the difference.
It was never about the money. Even though when I started, it was already proved there was money to be made. But I wasn't even looking at that, just concentrating on getting the stuff out of my head.
I tend to think people starting writing for the money have the wrong motivation. But that's just me.
On the other hand, I did have several books already written, so I suppose I dreamed of being a writer too.
I haven't been posting here for a while. I'm not sympathy trolling, but we lost both of our dogs about 9 months apart (both this year) and losing the last one cut deep. My wife and I are adjusting to post-dog life. I haven't been writing either. I don't have anything to say, either here or on paper.
When I do, I will.
::: returns to the shadows :::
Like JRTomlin, I'm expecting the end for my FT status one year soon. That I got so many years is something of a miracle, and I'm grateful I jumped into KDP when I did.I'm going to go out on a limb and predict that people who are able to make a full-time living will continue to do so, or at least come close. I think it's more likely people in the range below that will lose the most if the conditions become more difficult. I also think that breaking in will become more difficult.
Like JRTomlin, I'm expecting the end for my FT status one year soon. That I got so many years is something of a miracle, and I'm grateful I jumped into KDP when I did.I'm going to go out on a limb and predict that people who are able to make a full-time living will continue to do so, or at least come close. I think it's more likely people in the range below that will lose the most if the conditions become more difficult. I also think that breaking in will become more difficult.
That's a nice thought. But every new success story we hear means an old success story falls in the ranks. So if everybody making a FT living today continued to, no one else new could (because readership #s are pretty flat--not everyone reads novels and not everyone will). So I like your limb you went out on there :cheers but .... not I'm counting on it to last. There are younger, fresher, hungrier people biting at our heels. And I don't resent that, and I'd reach out to help any I stumbled across who had a question I could answer. Being FT feels a little like musical chairs to me. One day, the music will stop, and I'll look around, and I'll be the one without a chair.
That's where having a large backlist comes in, I guess. It's going to take those up-and-comers a while to write 30-40 novels.And it was easier to get noticed even a few years ago than it is now. That's why people with established fan bases have a distinct advantage.
...
How about free content exclusive to our websites, like a fun two or three person argument over something trivial that people will come back to read daily, with of course, ads for our books. I say people are starved for good clean fun that doesn't cost them an arm and a leg. We just have to figure out how to do it and then spread the word.
That's where having a large backlist comes in, I guess. It's going to take those up-and-comers a while to write 30-40 novels.Very true. And for a mid-lister, it is the backlist that generally pays the mortgage.
PS. Was the llama creature always green?
PS. Was the llama creature always green?Yep. It's always been awesome, too. :cool:
Plus, I don't comment if someone said it better, quicker, smarter than I could. Which is most often the case. I hate taking up space uselessly. Which is exactly what I'm doing now.