Author Topic: Free and cheap...A race to the bottom!  (Read 18017 times)

Al Macy (aka TromboneAl)

Re: Free and cheap...A race to the bottom!
« Reply #50 on: October 23, 2018, 07:55:52 AM »
... I refuse to devalue my art for a quick sale (not saying that anyone who does discount their work doesn't have value.)

I understand that point of view.

What about this hypothetical situation: You set a book's price to free for one day. You spend $100 to promote it, and get 2,000 downloads. During the week that follows, you make $200 from sales that would not have occurred otherwise.

Would that make the sale/promo worthwhile?

 

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David VanDyke

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Re: Free and cheap...A race to the bottom!
« Reply #51 on: October 23, 2018, 02:44:20 PM »
Apparently I've devalued my art to the tune of over $1M in the past 5 years.

*snort*

Never listen to people with no skin in the game.

I'm a lucky guy. I find the harder I work, the luckier I am.

Those who prefer their English sloppy have only themselves to thank if the advertisement writer uses his mastery of the vocabulary and syntax to mislead their weak minds.

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Mark Gardner

Re: Free and cheap...A race to the bottom!
« Reply #52 on: October 23, 2018, 11:25:04 PM »
Apparently I've devalued my art to the tune of over $1M in the past 5 years.

*snort*
We're talking US dollars, Dave, not rupees.
 

dianapersaud

Re: Free and cheap...A race to the bottom!
« Reply #53 on: October 23, 2018, 11:31:15 PM »
PS you know that stereotype about the reserved englishman? That's my typical reader! No wonder I don't get many reviews.

I'm a voracious reader and I've only left a handful of reviews. Some people like to leave reviews and others can't be bothered by it.

 
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Mark Gardner

Re: Free and cheap...A race to the bottom!
« Reply #54 on: October 23, 2018, 11:55:27 PM »
... I refuse to devalue my art for a quick sale (not saying that anyone who does discount their work doesn't have value.)

I understand that point of view.

What about this hypothetical situation: You set a book's price to free for one day. You spend $100 to promote it, and get 2,000 downloads. During the week that follows, you make $200 from sales that would not have occurred otherwise.

Would that make the sale/promo worthwhile?
I think that they're different things. The limited time promotion in your hypothetical situation is solid marketing, and I would do something like that if there was historical evidence that it would work. I'm all for using promotions and limited reductions in price to help push visibility, but I'm not a fan of a permanent loss leader hoping to make it up on the back end. I also don't discount books when I sell at events, I value-add instead.

The difference between devaluing your work and running a promo isn't always clear, but as David Van Dyke said at the 2018 CoKoCon, "I'll know it when I see it." (He was responding to an attendee who asked what exactly was science fiction.)
 

LilyBLily

Re: Free and cheap...A race to the bottom!
« Reply #55 on: October 24, 2018, 12:10:47 AM »
Do you constantly advertise your permafree first in series? It's very expensive to advertise in the discount newsletters. It's cheaper to advertise using targeted CPC ads. After an initial ad push, do you continue with daily CPC ads or just do cyclical newsletter ads? Or nothing at all? How are free books doing in the marketplace?

Note I'm not asking if free books sell through to the rest of the series and make an eventual profit. I'd like to know just how much costly support I'd have to give a permafree book.
 

dgcasey

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Re: Free and cheap...A race to the bottom!
« Reply #56 on: October 24, 2018, 04:50:27 AM »
I'm a voracious reader and I've only left a handful of reviews. Some people like to leave reviews and others can't be bothered by it.

Same here. If I'm reading a Kindle book, the last thing it asks is for me to leave a review. I will usually leave a star rating, but then submit it without any worded review. I'll write a review on maybe one out of three books I've read. I guess this is the reason I never complain about my lack of reviews on my books. It would be a bit hypocritical if I did.
I will not forget one line of this, not one day. I will always remember when the Doctor was me.
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JRTomlin

Re: Free and cheap...A race to the bottom!
« Reply #57 on: October 24, 2018, 05:24:26 AM »
I'm with Article94 (Mark Gardner)

I don't agree with this quote:

". . . Walmart, Sam’s Warehouse, and every other place wouldn’t be giving samples away in the hopes the sampler will fall in love and buy the product."

Their samples are NOT the product. They are little pieces of the product (food). Their samples are samples.
Does BMW give away sample cars? Maybe you would really like the car and buy next year's car.
Nope. No BMW samples.

Indie publishing might be the only (or at least one of the few) that gives away the whole product as a sample.
Discount? Yes if you want to. But the whole product for free?

Walmart won't give you a whole package of pizzas as a sample. Just a bite.
The 'whole work' is my entire body of work, not one novel. Yes, I have given away one novel in order to sell an entire series. I will probably do so again in the future. 
 

Al Macy (aka TromboneAl)

Re: Free and cheap...A race to the bottom!
« Reply #58 on: October 24, 2018, 05:32:54 AM »
I love free.  It's been very good to me and by free I mean (usually) taking advantage of the five free days with KU.  Always free doesn't convey any urgency.  Free for a short time gives readers more incentive to grab that book today.

I'm not sure the readers can tell the difference.

Here's my Yesterday's Thief page. Can you tell whether it's permafree vs free today only?



I used to add Limited time offer! to the start of the description when I had a free day, but that's an extra bit of bother.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2018, 05:49:25 AM by Al Macy (aka TromboneAl) »

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Al Macy (aka TromboneAl)

Re: Free and cheap...A race to the bottom!
« Reply #59 on: October 24, 2018, 05:58:08 AM »
Do you constantly advertise your permafree first in series? It's very expensive to advertise in the discount newsletters. It's cheaper to advertise using targeted CPC ads. After an initial ad push, do you continue with daily CPC ads or just do cyclical newsletter ads? Or nothing at all? How are free books doing in the marketplace?

Note I'm not asking if free books sell through to the rest of the series and make an eventual profit. I'd like to know just how much costly support I'd have to give a permafree book.

I have a hard time shelling out dough to promote my first-in-series free, because if I make the promo cost back, it's because I sell more in the days following the promo. I'm going to rethink that, however.

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DrewMcGunn

Re: Free and cheap...A race to the bottom!
« Reply #60 on: October 24, 2018, 07:13:07 AM »
Do you constantly advertise your permafree first in series? It's very expensive to advertise in the discount newsletters. It's cheaper to advertise using targeted CPC ads. After an initial ad push, do you continue with daily CPC ads or just do cyclical newsletter ads? Or nothing at all? How are free books doing in the marketplace?

Note I'm not asking if free books sell through to the rest of the series and make an eventual profit. I'd like to know just how much costly support I'd have to give a permafree book.

I have a hard time shelling out dough to promote my first-in-series free, because if I make the promo cost back, it's because I sell more in the days following the promo. I'm going to rethink that, however.

Al, I hope you don't mind me asking, but what's your conversion rate from book 1 to book 2 in the above referenced series?


Drew McGunn
 

JRTomlin

Re: Free and cheap...A race to the bottom!
« Reply #61 on: October 24, 2018, 07:43:02 AM »
I may have mentioned this before, but I price at $4.99 for all my books, barring first-in-series, which are $2.99.

The price gives me enough leeway to buy some clicks on various ad platforms.

Everything I write is part of one series or another, and every novel is set in the same universe, with crossovers from various characters. Even the middle-grade novels and many of my short stories.

My intention is to build a fan base, not sell books. To that end, I've switched from pushing freebies on all and sundry to focussing on building my mailing list, as mentioned above. I offer all my first-in-series books free, via bookfunnel, and I'm now getting 20-30 new signups per day thanks to CPC ads.

I've created Alpha reading teams, (40 people, chapters as I write them), Beta reading teams (40 others, ARCs) and a Reviewer team of maybe 200 people who get every new release, free.

I have a signup process which hands out a couple of freebies, introduces me to the people who are kind enough to sign up, and offers them a spot on the review team.

I've all but abandoned newsletter swaps, because they feel a bit too spammy to me.

Since I'm writing a book every 4-6 weeks right now, there's plenty for me to share when I do put out a newsletter, but I've started focussing on smaller segments of the list each time, instead of blasting everyone with a generic newsy email.
That bolded part is impressive! Are those mainly through FB ads? Or BB ads?

(I sincerely hope my newsletter people don't expect 'newsy' because I don't do news  :icon_redface:)
 

Al Macy (aka TromboneAl)

Re: Free and cheap...A race to the bottom!
« Reply #62 on: October 24, 2018, 09:49:04 AM »
Al, I hope you don't mind me asking, but what's your conversion rate from book 1 to book 2 in the above referenced series?

I don't mind.

I can't calculate that in a meaningful way, since I promote the books in the series independently. For example, book four in the series (AMRC) has sold five times as many units as book three (DT).

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David VanDyke

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Re: Free and cheap...A race to the bottom!
« Reply #63 on: October 24, 2018, 02:26:34 PM »
Apparently I've devalued my art to the tune of over $1M in the past 5 years.

*snort*
We're talking US dollars, Dave, not rupees.

As am I.

US dollars, with the usual leavening of Pounds Sterling, Euros and those funny-colored dollars other countries use.
Never listen to people with no skin in the game.

I'm a lucky guy. I find the harder I work, the luckier I am.

Those who prefer their English sloppy have only themselves to thank if the advertisement writer uses his mastery of the vocabulary and syntax to mislead their weak minds.

~ Dorothy L. Sayers
 

Lorri Moulton

Re: Free and cheap...A race to the bottom!
« Reply #64 on: October 27, 2018, 12:58:56 AM »
One time before Christmas, I put all my ebooks as free for my social media followers and today is that day.  I'm in KU, so I usually get KU reads the free day and several days after that.  Sales also pick up because (I'm hoping) people enjoy the books and recommend them to their friends.

I don't have a marketing budget, so this is pretty much it except for trying BookFunnel for a few months.  We all have to see what works best for us and keep trying new things.  Or if really successful...keep doing what we're doing. :)

Author of Romance, Fantasy, Fairytales, Mystery & Suspense, and Historical Non-Fiction @ Lavender Cottage Books
 

PJ Post

Re: Free and cheap...A race to the bottom!
« Reply #65 on: October 27, 2018, 03:05:09 AM »
It's not about devaluing our books - they're already devalued. It's why David only made a mil instead of four or five. Self-publishers got hung up on the packaging. The product isn't the digital file or the bound pile of paper, it's the emotional experience captured in the reading. So, apart from some basic distribution concerns, all books should be about the same price. E-books were $15. People were paying this price as the new tech was adopted - just like people paid $20 for a CD when they came out, because that was the value of the music, not the price of the packaging.

Free books are not really loss leaders, that's a different strategy. Free samples aren't the same either. It makes no sense to try and justify a tactic based on existing business buzzwords when the new idea is, well...new. Zero marginal costs and a lack of scarcity are real things. As a result, free books are their own animal. It's a strategy pretty specific to the creative markets of books and music. How the strategy functions, (there are lots of variations) depends on the brand and the specific goals of the publisher.

The market reality, as of now, is that consumers have been conditioned to expect ultra-cheap entertainment, to the point that a growing segment believes that Art et al should just be free - all of it, especially if it lives on the internet.

This is why I recommend differentiation, not only because it's been proven to be THE primary driver of most successful companies, but also because the less fungible your books are, the more they stand out against the noise. Brand loyalty (fan excitement) is directly proportional to how fungible your books are.
 
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prolificwriter

Re: Free and cheap...A race to the bottom!
« Reply #66 on: October 27, 2018, 05:39:52 AM »
It's why David only made a mil instead of four or five.

 :icon_think:
 :icon_rolleyes:
 

Pandorra

Re: Free and cheap...A race to the bottom!
« Reply #67 on: October 27, 2018, 11:00:12 AM »
... My intention is to build a fan base, not sell books. To that end, I've switched from pushing freebies on all and sundry to focussing on building my mailing list, as mentioned above. I offer all my first-in-series books free, via bookfunnel, and I'm now getting 20-30 new signups per day thanks to CPC ads. ...
I'm confused. You saying you're willing to pay for newsletter sign-ups to build a fan base. I get that. It's pretty much the opposite of my game plan, but I get it. Others have tried it and made it work for a time. How does that work with ARCS and stuff, though? Your September release only has four reviews and if you're getting 20 new people on your list a day, that equals about 600 people a month. That's a lot of people to add, and kudos, but they don't look to be buying. What's the plan to change that? I'm honestly curious. I'm not trying to be difficult. I simply don't think this method works over the long haul and I'm curious why you do think it will work.

I'm sure Simon will step in here, but what he is doing sounds a lot like what Mark Dawson (Self Publishing Formula) has been advocating for a while. Dawson is frequently quoted as saying that he'd rather have a sign-up than a sale. It has to do with sell-throughs to the rest of the series.
Except there's obviously no sell-through happening. That's the point. If there's no sell-through, how does that plan work?

I'm not sure no reviews means no sales, I sell quite a few books (nothing like the big numbers) but hardly ever get reviews. So mine don't represent my sales at all.

Dean Rencraft | Authors in Motion
 
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Tonyonline

Re: Free and cheap...A race to the bottom!
« Reply #68 on: October 30, 2018, 04:55:32 AM »
I'm not sure no reviews means no sales, I sell quite a few books (nothing like the big numbers) but hardly ever get reviews. So mine don't represent my sales at all.

I think that's the same for everyone.
This piece on justpublishingadvice, How Can I Get More Amazon Book Reviews? says "...it would seem that authors who have been around for a while are obtaining on average one review per 150-200 sales..."
It also goes on...
"Giving away Kindle books can help a little, but the ratio of free ebooks to new book reviews is even lower than for real sales."

I see many people saying that giving away books helps to get reviews, I suppose it does, however, maybe not as many as some would like!
 

WasAnn

Re: Free and cheap...A race to the bottom!
« Reply #69 on: October 30, 2018, 06:12:36 AM »
I think that number has changed lately, but maybe not for every genre. I used to get maybe 1 per 150-200. I'd say now that's waaaay less, like 1 per 400-500 sales/borrows. They're great reviews, but I honestly think that number has changed in terms of how many.

Also, I've been told that my genre generally gets fewer, so maybe that's it.


Science Fiction is my game.
 

David VanDyke

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Re: Free and cheap...A race to the bottom!
« Reply #70 on: October 30, 2018, 04:26:41 PM »
It's not about devaluing our books - they're already devalued. It's why David only made a mil instead of four or five.

I can't prove this is wrong, but my educated assessment is no (to the second part, that I would have made 4-5 times as much), I don't think so. I think that the ability to price lower in comparison to the (foolish) traditional publishers is exactly what made me my money. First, it allowed me and others to scrabble for market share, to get our foot in the door. It allowed us to get and keep fans who were wanting a decent deal.

And remember, we weren't only competing with the retail trade ebook market. We were (and are) partly competing against the used book market. Does a reader spend $5 on my ebook, or the same $5 on a used hardback on Amazon? Those used hardbacks or paperbacks were always there, always "devaluing" the market. We were forced to come down to them to compete, but once we did, once we indies found our sweet spots, and we had good product, we sold.

So, I think what I made was approximately the most I could have made, all other things being equal under the conditions I was given. Had there been no other form of "devaluation," say no secondary print book market selling cheap used books, the same percentage of the fixed number of dollars available from buyers would have still flowed to me, plus or minus maybe ten percent. The difference might have been I'd have written fewer books, or people would have written fewer books overall, or I'd have sold fewer copies at a higher price. I just don't believe I'd have made much more money.

Never listen to people with no skin in the game.

I'm a lucky guy. I find the harder I work, the luckier I am.

Those who prefer their English sloppy have only themselves to thank if the advertisement writer uses his mastery of the vocabulary and syntax to mislead their weak minds.

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dgcasey

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Re: Free and cheap...A race to the bottom!
« Reply #71 on: October 30, 2018, 08:07:09 PM »
It's not about devaluing our books - they're already devalued. It's why David only made a mil instead of four or five.

I can't prove this is wrong, but my educated assessment is no (to the second part, that I would have made 4-5 times as much), I don't think so. I think that the ability to price lower in comparison to the (foolish) traditional publishers is exactly what made me my money.

I think you're doing just fine, Dave. Would you rather sell 250,000 books, keeping $4 per book, or go the trad route and sell 500,000 books and have them grace you with a dollar per book? Plus, you don't have any trad editor telling you, "it's not good enough" or some publisher calling you every week, wondering where that next manuscript is. Some of us would work better under that kind of system, but those of us going the indie route in a serious way can do much better without those distractions.
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"Into The Wishing Well" title="Into The Wishing Well"
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Tonyonline

Re: Free and cheap...A race to the bottom!
« Reply #72 on: October 31, 2018, 04:05:15 AM »
And remember, we weren't only competing with the retail trade ebook market.

Made me think of this I was reading the other day on Authorlink. Avoiding the pitfalls of publishing with Amazon Kindle self-publishing platform, a short piece, but what stuck out for me was this...
"Self-published authors, according to Author Earnings, are verifiably capturing at least 24%-34% of all ebook sales in each of the five English-language markets…"
I'd have thought it would be more, which it goes on, was more "...the true indie share in each market lies somewhere between 30%-40%, the study shows." So indies aren't doing too bad against the trads...Go us  :dance:
 
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Tonyonline

Re: Free and cheap...A race to the bottom!
« Reply #73 on: October 31, 2018, 04:07:52 AM »
I used to get maybe 1 per 150-200. I'd say now that's waaaay less, like 1 per 400-500 sales/borrows.

 Hmmm...I wonder why :icon_think:
 

Lorri Moulton

Re: Free and cheap...A race to the bottom!
« Reply #74 on: October 31, 2018, 08:03:25 AM »
My understanding is that it's more difficult to leave reviews on Amazon now.  In groups I follow, more readers seem to be going to GoodReads.

Author of Romance, Fantasy, Fairytales, Mystery & Suspense, and Historical Non-Fiction @ Lavender Cottage Books
 

David VanDyke

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Re: Free and cheap...A race to the bottom!
« Reply #75 on: October 31, 2018, 10:06:14 AM »

"Self-published authors, according to Author Earnings, are verifiably capturing at least 24%-34% of all ebook sales in each of the five English-language markets…"
I'd have thought it would be more, which it goes on, was more "...the true indie share in each market lies somewhere between 30%-40%, the study shows." So indies aren't doing too bad against the trads...Go us  :dance:

True, but remember, while the average of freezing and boiling is comfortable, either extreme will kill you.

If I remember correctly, indie share ranged from a high of 71% in one niche (African-American fiction? something like that) down below a couple percent in things like textbooks. So, it depends on how you slice it.

It also matters (hugely) if we're talking about dollar sales vs. units sold, and also whether free ebooks are figured in. Indies sell more by # of units (probably more than 50% overall)  than they do by comparable dollar figures (which is more like 30%). Also, are we talking about gross sales, gross royalties, net author earnings, or what?

Often, the stats are quoted without defining those critical parameters.
Never listen to people with no skin in the game.

I'm a lucky guy. I find the harder I work, the luckier I am.

Those who prefer their English sloppy have only themselves to thank if the advertisement writer uses his mastery of the vocabulary and syntax to mislead their weak minds.

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PJ Post

Re: Free and cheap...A race to the bottom!
« Reply #76 on: October 31, 2018, 10:18:09 AM »
It's not about devaluing our books - they're already devalued. It's why David only made a mil instead of four or five.

I can't prove this is wrong, but my educated assessment is no (to the second part, that I would have made 4-5 times as much), I don't think so. I think that the ability to price lower in comparison to the (foolish) traditional publishers is exactly what made me my money. First, it allowed me and others to scrabble for market share, to get our foot in the door. It allowed us to get and keep fans who were wanting a decent deal.

And remember, we weren't only competing with the retail trade ebook market. We were (and are) partly competing against the used book market. Does a reader spend $5 on my ebook, or the same $5 on a used hardback on Amazon? Those used hardbacks or paperbacks were always there, always "devaluing" the market. We were forced to come down to them to compete, but once we did, once we indies found our sweet spots, and we had good product, we sold.

So, I think what I made was approximately the most I could have made, all other things being equal under the conditions I was given. Had there been no other form of "devaluation," say no secondary print book market selling cheap used books, the same percentage of the fixed number of dollars available from buyers would have still flowed to me, plus or minus maybe ten percent. The difference might have been I'd have written fewer books, or people would have written fewer books overall, or I'd have sold fewer copies at a higher price. I just don't believe I'd have made much more money.

I wasn't suggesting you could have done better, you seem to have done very very well indeed.   :tup3b

But - as you said - under the conditions you were given. We're already at the bottom and have been for years, so strategies have to take this into account, along with all of the other obstacles out there.

I was just illustrating the difference between an average e-book price of $17 in 2010, and the current prevailing price of $2.99 or 99 cents or whatever. If Indies had not devalued the market, subscriptions services would never have been workable. Traditional book prices would not have fallen and the secondhand market would still be buoyed by higher new release prices. Win win win win win. Of course, the reality is that Indies were always destined to devalue the market because we're human. With no barriers to entry, bottoming out was only a matter of time. It's the whole Tragedy of the Commons thing. Generally speaking, it's why we can't have nice things. And it's also why the price of books have plummeted consistently across all distribution channels.

As creatives continue to emulate past market successes in lieu of original content, Art is rapidly being reduced to commodity status. And not just books, it's happening all over. And since demand for commodities is extremely price sensitive, these properties are also extremely fungible.
 

David VanDyke

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Re: Free and cheap...A race to the bottom!
« Reply #77 on: October 31, 2018, 02:33:24 PM »


But - as you said - under the conditions you were given. We're already at the bottom and have been for years, so strategies have to take this into account, along with all of the other obstacles out there.

***

I was just illustrating the difference between an average e-book price of $17 in 2010, and the current prevailing price of $2.99 or 99 cents or whatever. If Indies had not devalued the market, subscriptions services would never have been workable. Traditional book prices would not have fallen and the secondhand market would still be buoyed by higher new release prices. Win win win win win.

Of course, the reality is that Indies were always destined to devalue the market because we're human. With no barriers to entry, bottoming out was only a matter of time. It's the whole Tragedy of the Commons thing. Generally speaking, it's why we can't have nice things. And it's also why the price of books have plummeted consistently across all distribution channels.

First section reply: if by "for years" you mean "for decades," you'd be right. The bottom has nothing to do with ebooks. It has to do with the price of a copy of the books available--which has little to do with the retail price. Only eager fans or people with no other choice (say, trapped in airports) ever paid full price. Most readers waited--for the discount, for the mass market paperback, for the bargain bins, for the used copies to hit the secondhand bookstores. This has been going on since the forties, I'd say. It became even more pronounced in the run-up to the digital age, when the publishing houses went public and tried to soak readers for every possible dollar by raising prices on (what they considered) scarce goods. They did this in a vain effort to counteract the "bottom," which was in the secondhand bookstores, and with the original Amazon when it was mostly the biggest online bookstore.

So, with that in mind, the second section:

***

The "average ebook price" in 2010 was a falsity. First, as I mentioned above, what mattered was not the ebook price, but the price to obtain any particular book. When the artificially high ebook price was $17 and one could order a nearly new print copy for $6, the $6 was the bottom. The $17 ebook was an anomaly, no more relevant than someone trying to sell a "rare" used copy of the same book for $299. $6 was the price to match or beat. Anyone not part of the monopoly system, be they small publisher or indie, had to price at or below that $6 price point or they would not sell anything. Only those with monopolies on popular authors (think Weber or Sanderson or King or Rowling) could get away with charging $25 for a hardback, $17 for an ebook and (often) $15 for a paperback.

In other words, it was the BUYER who set the price, by what they were willing to pay. If they did not buy, that "price" was just a number, like the "price" of a house that cannot be sold because they're asking too much.

The contention that if indies hadn't devalued the market (too late!) subscription services would not have been workable is exactly wrong, exactly opposite of even your own argument. In fact, it's only HIGHER prices that make anyone want to sign up for a subscription service, precisely in order to bring their own costs down. If indies had in fact brought the price of an average ebook down to, say, 99c (instead of the 3.99-4.99 current real average), many people wouldn't bother joining KU. If the average price were, say. 49c, that subscription would be even less attractive.

So, if there had been no indies or small publishers lowering their prices, even MORE people would have joined KU, because for less than the price of one $17 ebook, subscribers could have "all you can eat." So in fact, the lower true average market price logically would have slowed people joining KU, rather than driving them to it.

Simply: higher ebook prices = KU more attractive. Lower ebook prices = KU less attractive.

The only Tragedy of the Commons takes place within KU, not within the market. The market is the market. The two are separate. They influence each other, but there is no "Commons" within the market to overgraze. There is no tragedy. The market is a natural mechanism for pricing goods. There is no "proper" price for goods other than what the market sets. Claiming the market is wrong or the price of goods the market sets is wrong is like saying sea level is wrong. It is what it is: a sum of conditions. As long as it's not artificially elevated, the price that prevails is the "right" price, having nothing to do with indies per se. Monopolies never last, so someone was bound to eventually undercut the artificially high prices of the trades.

In fact, it was Amazon itself that accelerated the natural process. It broke the logjam by inviting a bunch of new players into the game (indies) and then incentivizing them to price between 2.99 and 9.99. But to be clear, this pricing endpoint was and is a natural process, just like the price of sugar or pork bellies on the commodities markets. The prices are actually set, not by the sellers, but by the BUYERS, who set the prices by what they are willing to pay for similar goods.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2018, 02:38:44 PM by David VanDyke »
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Anarchist

Re: Free and cheap...A race to the bottom!
« Reply #78 on: October 31, 2018, 02:42:49 PM »
David in this thread...


"The first lesson of economics is scarcity: there is never enough of anything to fully satisfy all those who want it. The first lesson of politics is to disregard the first lesson of economics.” – Thomas Sowell

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Max

Re: Free and cheap...A race to the bottom!
« Reply #79 on: October 31, 2018, 02:45:57 PM »
Agree w/Anarchist.

Nicely presented, David.
 
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PJ Post

Re: Free and cheap...A race to the bottom!
« Reply #80 on: November 03, 2018, 10:13:04 AM »
First section reply: if by "for years" you mean "for decades," you'd be right. The bottom has nothing to do with ebooks. It has to do with the price of a copy of the books available--which has little to do with the retail price. Only eager fans or people with no other choice (say, trapped in airports) ever paid full price. Most readers waited--for the discount, for the mass market paperback, for the bargain bins, for the used copies to hit the secondhand bookstores. This has been going on since the forties, I'd say. It became even more pronounced in the run-up to the digital age, when the publishing houses went public and tried to soak readers for every possible dollar by raising prices on (what they considered) scarce goods. They did this in a vain effort to counteract the "bottom," which was in the secondhand bookstores, and with the original Amazon when it was mostly the biggest online bookstore.

We've had a used book market for decades and yet new release prices have steadily increased up to the current price of $30 for a new hardback (I think they got as high as $40 US for a while there.) This is the opposite of what we would expect to see if the used market were creating downward pressure on new release pricing. The reason this didn't happen is because these are different distribution channels, and historically, the used market has had little impact on the new. I believe the formal distribution model is known as windowing, where new releases are published at a higher price, followed later by the paperback at a discount. And while I have a lot of hardbacks, I have way more $8-$9 mass-market paperbacks. The used market probably sold these for $3 or $4 when they were new, but to take advantage of the discount meant actually going to a used book store. There is a significant percentage of the book-reading demographic that has pretty much never been in a used book store.

'Most readers' is a nebulous demographic at best, because until the digital disruption (Indies), Borders and B&N et al were doing just fine with ever increasing book prices.

When e-books showed up, traditional publishing simply applied the windowing philosophy to digital, but at a discount. So new releases were $17 or whatever at the time, instead of $30 for the hardback.

The problem wasn't the used paperback market, the problem was the ever expanding supply of dirt cheap books from Indies, that, when combined with the severe shortage of content for the emerging technology (readers), created a perfect storm that disrupted traditional publishing's business model. And that's why they were going nuts to discredit Indies, because we were destroying their historically stable livelihood. It wasn't that they didn't get it - we were simply bad for business.

Quote
The "average ebook price" in 2010 was a falsity. First, as I mentioned above, what mattered was not the ebook price, but the price to obtain any particular book. When the artificially high ebook price was $17 and one could order a nearly new print copy for $6, the $6 was the bottom. The $17 ebook was an anomaly, no more relevant than someone trying to sell a "rare" used copy of the same book for $299. $6 was the price to match or beat. Anyone not part of the monopoly system, be they small publisher or indie, had to price at or below that $6 price point or they would not sell anything. Only those with monopolies on popular authors (think Weber or Sanderson or King or Rowling) could get away with charging $25 for a hardback, $17 for an ebook and (often) $15 for a paperback.

In other words, it was the BUYER who set the price, by what they were willing to pay. If they did not buy, that "price" was just a number, like the "price" of a house that cannot be sold because they're asking too much.

The contention that if indies hadn't devalued the market (too late!) subscription services would not have been workable is exactly wrong, exactly opposite of even your own argument. In fact, it's only HIGHER prices that make anyone want to sign up for a subscription service, precisely in order to bring their own costs down. If indies had in fact brought the price of an average ebook down to, say, 99c (instead of the 3.99-4.99 current real average), many people wouldn't bother joining KU. If the average price were, say. 49c, that subscription would be even less attractive.

So, if there had been no indies or small publishers lowering their prices, even MORE people would have joined KU, because for less than the price of one $17 ebook, subscribers could have "all you can eat." So in fact, the lower true average market price logically would have slowed people joining KU, rather than driving them to it.

Simply: higher ebook prices = KU more attractive. Lower ebook prices = KU less attractive.

The problem with subscription services wasn't a demand issue. From a consumer perspective, yes, subscriptions are great, especially as new content becomes more expensive. However, from a supply-side perspective, it would never have worked, which was my point. The cost would have been prohibitively expensive, which is exactly what we saw with Scribd, even at deflated prices, when they had to discontinue their romance categories.

Again, books were priced at what the market would bear, simple as that - good old supply and demand. $10 for mass-market paperbacks, up to $30 for new release hardbacks and $17 or so for digital. The used market was irrelevant and KU was way off in the future. That was the prevailing market Indies inherited. Buyers had already approved these prices by paying them and working within the windowing system. This model reflected existing consumer behavior, and their expectations vis a vis pricing.

Quote
The only Tragedy of the Commons takes place within KU, not within the market. The market is the market. The two are separate. They influence each other, but there is no "Commons" within the market to overgraze. There is no tragedy. The market is a natural mechanism for pricing goods. There is no "proper" price for goods other than what the market sets. Claiming the market is wrong or the price of goods the market sets is wrong is like saying sea level is wrong. It is what it is: a sum of conditions. As long as it's not artificially elevated, the price that prevails is the "right" price, having nothing to do with indies per se. Monopolies never last, so someone was bound to eventually undercut the artificially high prices of the trades.

In fact, it was Amazon itself that accelerated the natural process. It broke the logjam by inviting a bunch of new players into the game (indies) and then incentivizing them to price between 2.99 and 9.99. But to be clear, this pricing endpoint was and is a natural process, just like the price of sugar or pork bellies on the commodities markets. The prices are actually set, not by the sellers, but by the BUYERS, who set the prices by what they are willing to pay for similar goods.

The Tragedy of the Commons:

The tragedy of the commons is a term used in social science to describe a situation in a shared-resource system where individual users acting independently according to their own self-interest behave contrary to the common good of all users by depleting or spoiling that resource through their collective action - wiki

In our case, the shared resource was the prevailing market price and consumer expectations.

The reason we call it a tragedy of the commons is because the 'market' had nothing to do with setting anything. The devaluing of the book market was artificial (and this isn't the only case study). The lower prices were not a reaction to supply and demand, they were an attempt for self-publishers to undercut one another. The e-book supply for readers was still severely restricted when we hit bottom. Indies acted against their long-term collective interests and against the stability of the existing market when they lowered their prices so drastically. It was when the majority of Indies followed suit, flooding the emerging market with dirt cheap books, that we so disrupted the pricing equilibrium. Think about it like this: say we got together all of the market data for the time, analyzed it and came up with a conclusion - and then utterly ignored it and did the exact opposite. Because, in a nut shell, except for the actual analysis part, that's what happened.

Eventually, we might have ended up here anyway, as I said - human behavior, but we'll never know for sure. It's all academic anyway, the reality is that we are at the bottom, and we're going to stay here because we're going to have a constant wave of new self-publishers that think they have to be cheap to get noticed. I'm just happy Amazon set the floor at 99 cents. Can you imagine box sets of 20 books for a nickel? You know it would have happened if it had been allowed.

And selling books for less than a penny each has nothing to do with supply and demand. We've conditioned a whole new generation of readers to expect a lot of content for next to nothing. That's not on buyers or supply and demand or technology or manipulative traditional publishers - that's all on us.

It sucks, but the data doesn't lie. :shrug

eta: In international economics, when import pricing is set so low, it is called dumping, which is illegal. Domestically, it is called predatory pricing. Normally, markets are protected from this type of behavior, even the NYSE has an automatic closure if the value falls too fast, but since there were so many Indies participating, we had no protection and the market went into free fall. What would have happened if Random House had suddenly priced all of their books at a dollar?
« Last Edit: November 03, 2018, 10:27:13 AM by PJ Post »
 
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David VanDyke

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Re: Free and cheap...A race to the bottom!
« Reply #81 on: November 03, 2018, 05:53:19 PM »
Thanks--in arguing against me, you are proving me right. I'm not sure why youre trying to disagree with me, except that you don't seem to see the implications of your own statements:

We've had a used book market for decades and yet new release prices have steadily increased up to the current price of $30 for a new hardback (I think they got as high as $40 US for a while there.) This is the opposite of what we would expect to see if the used market were creating downward pressure on new release pricing. The reason this didn't happen is because these are different distribution channels, and historically, the used market has had little impact on the new. I believe the formal distribution model is known as windowing, where new releases are published at a higher price, followed later by the paperback at a discount.

The artificial "official" price was as you say. The Big 6 publishing monopoly, which also used strongarm tactics to keep its distributers in line ("don't buy from those other guys or we won't give you new release copies), used windowing as a strategy precisely to create artificial scarcity in order to try to fight against the downward pressure on the natural prices. If the prices were naturally at that level, they would never need windowing.

And while I have a lot of hardbacks, I have way more $8-$9 mass-market paperbacks. The used market probably sold these for $3 or $4 when they were new, but to take advantage of the discount meant actually going to a used book store. There is a significant percentage of the book-reading demographic that has pretty much never been in a used book store.

Did you buy those hardbacks at full price, or at some form of discount? And you admit you often waited for the mass-market paperbacks--again, evidence that the artificially windowed price was unnatural.

And what's a "significant percentage" of the book-reading demographic? 20%? 50%? I don't believe it to be nearly that high--but anyway, that's actually the wrong question to ask. It doesn't matter how many people go into what bookstore, as much as how many copies are sold in what store and at what price. If, say, only 50% of book readers patronized used bookstores, but those readers buy 5x as many books (I think they probably buy more like 10x as many books, but I'm trying to be conservative here), then in effect, 5x as many books are sold (and returned, and resold, over and over) in used bookstores, at deep discounts.

And even in the retail bookstores, the voracious readers didn't generally pay full price, further multiplying this effect.

'Most readers' is a nebulous demographic at best, because until the digital disruption (Indies), Borders and B&N et al were doing just fine with ever increasing book prices.

Again, the increasing book prices were the monopolists' attempt to counter the big box chains DIScOUNTING of books. They had bargain bins, 50% sales, reading clubs for 10% off all the time, and constant markdowns. I used to go into those stores and walk out with 10 books for $35. As long as I didn't want a specific new release, my average price was well under $5. That's the price the majority of books sold at.

The problem wasn't the used paperback market, the problem was the ever expanding supply of dirt cheap books from Indies, that, when combined with the severe shortage of content for the emerging technology (readers), created a perfect storm that disrupted traditional publishing's business model. And that's why they were going nuts to discredit Indies, because we were destroying their historically stable livelihood. It wasn't that they didn't get it - we were simply bad for business.

Indies and ebooks were simply the next step on the process. There was already a glut of paperbacks and used hardbacks. That's why Amazon the original bookstore took off so rapidly. But because of the monopoly on published books--not copies, but new original books by paid authors--there was an enormous pent-up demand. Indies and small presses publishing ebooks suddenly fed that demand--but the demand was already there. It was part of the market.

Think of artificially high prices like the Berlin Wall. The existence of each was not proof that people liked the situation, nor did each make anyone's lives better except for those in (temporary) control. Quite the opposite--artificially high prices, like the Berlin wall, were proof positive of the exact opposite--that people want to get out of an oppressive, abusive situation, and those in control were trying to stop them.

Again, books were priced at what the market would bear, simple as that - good old supply and demand. $10 for mass-market paperbacks, up to $30 for new release hardbacks and $17 or so for digital. The used market was irrelevant and KU was way off in the future. That was the prevailing market Indies inherited. Buyers had already approved these prices by paying them and working within the windowing system. This model reflected existing consumer behavior, and their expectations vis a vis pricing.

Nope.

The market did not bear those prices. Those were ASKING PRICES which only a small percentage of consumers actually paid. If those were "what the market would bear," then QED all of us indies would happily be pricing at $17, or at least 9.99. But Amazon knew from its stats, and proved by its policies of discounting trade ebooks to below 9.99 back when it had that authority, that the fake pricing was too high. The $17 ebook had nothing to do with the market, and everything to do with trying to protect the legacy print channels and their artificial windowing system. They were not working with consumer behavior or reflecting consumer behavior, they were manipulating it using their monopolized captive customers.

But, as soon as that monopoly unraveled, the market returned the prices to their proper places because of supply and demand.

Artificial pricing, monopoly pricing, is non-market pricing. That's precisely why democratic governments have anti-monopoly laws: to try to counteract naked attempts to manipulate the market, and that's what the publishers were doing. In fact, they were often colluding to protect their monopolies. It took Amazon to break their monopolies, which naturally resulted in lower ebook prices. Every non-monopoly player, whether indie or small publisher, ended up pricing their books closer to the natural market price. That was inevitable.


The reason we call it a tragedy of the commons is because the 'market' had nothing to do with setting anything. The devaluing of the book market was artificial (and this isn't the only case study). The lower prices were not a reaction to supply and demand, they were an attempt for self-publishers to undercut one another. The e-book supply for readers was still severely restricted when we hit bottom. Indies acted against their long-term collective interests and against the stability of the existing market when they lowered their prices so drastically. It was when the majority of Indies followed suit, flooding the emerging market with dirt cheap books, that we so disrupted the pricing equilibrium. Think about it like this: say we got together all of the market data for the time, analyzed it and came up with a conclusion - and then utterly ignored it and did the exact opposite. Because, in a nut shell, except for the actual analysis part, that's what happened.


You are completely misunderstanding what's going on.

The "devaluing" was not a devaluing--it was a return to the natural value set by the market. It's like claiming that taking someone off steroids is "devaluing" their athletic ability rather than returning it to its natural level.

The lower prices were precisely, exactly a response to supply and demand. In fact, you keep saying so yourself--then for some inexplicable reason you refuse to draw the inevitable, undeniable conclusion. You say yourself the market was flooded. Exactly! That's the market! That's how markets work--naturally! Yet somehow you're trying to say water should be expected to flow uphill, or stay in its ponds when it's raining to overflow its banks.

The tragedy of the commons is a term used in social science to describe a situation in a shared-resource system where individual users acting independently according to their own self-interest behave contrary to the common good of all users by depleting or spoiling that resource through their collective action - wiki

I know exactly what the tragedy of the commons is--but you don't! Nobody depleted any resources! There are more books, more money (overall) being paid for more books (though less individually), more authors making a living than ever before, the publishers are reporting record profits, and readers are benefitting from lower prices! Win-win-win-win-win NOW, not before, because of MORE resources. The only group that lost out were midlist authors under that traditional system who were not agile enough in their business practices to make the transition to an indie model. There simply is no tragedy, except the normal disruption of some "laborers." It's like when the automobile killed the buggy-building business. The only ones who lost out where those who tried to hold on to the horse and buggy, and did not re-skill themselves for the world of the automobile.

And selling books for less than a penny each has nothing to do with supply and demand. We've conditioned a whole new generation of readers to expect a lot of content for next to nothing. That's not on buyers or supply and demand or technology or manipulative traditional publishers - that's all on us.


That is exactly, precisely supply and demand. It's supply and demand in its purest form. How you can keep saying it's not--you're calling black white. It's positively Orwellian, the way you're trying to claim the false is true.


eta: In international economics, when import pricing is set so low, it is called dumping, which is illegal. Domestically, it is called predatory pricing. Normally, markets are protected from this type of behavior, even the NYSE has an automatic closure if the value falls too fast, but since there were so many Indies participating, we had no protection and the market went into free fall. What would have happened if Random House had suddenly priced all of their books at a dollar?


No, dumping is mostly not illegal. It can be, but only under specific circumstances. Ditto for predatory pricing.

https://www.investopedia.com/terms/d/dumping.asp

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predatory_pricing

It's only illegal (in most free market nations) if it's proven that it's deliberate and artificial, not as a result of market forces.

But our current fantastic, wonderful situation (lower prices for everyone, more books sold, more opportunity and money for authors as a whole, more profits for the traditional publishers who survived the initial disruption) is entirely due to market forces finally breaking through the logjam, enabled by digital publishing, which took power out of the hands of the monopolists.

In contrast, you're arguing everyone was better off under the old system.

Nope. Nopity nope nope nope.

« Last Edit: November 03, 2018, 05:58:30 PM by David VanDyke »
Never listen to people with no skin in the game.

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Becca Mills

Re: Free and cheap...A race to the bottom!
« Reply #82 on: November 03, 2018, 10:36:26 PM »
I've never gotten the heart of the "devaluing" argument. If I can offer my books to consumers at a lower per-item cost while making more from each transaction, what's not to like? People can afford to read more books; authors can make more money.
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notthatamanda

Re: Free and cheap...A race to the bottom!
« Reply #83 on: November 03, 2018, 11:02:58 PM »
Do you constantly advertise your permafree first in series? It's very expensive to advertise in the discount newsletters. It's cheaper to advertise using targeted CPC ads. After an initial ad push, do you continue with daily CPC ads or just do cyclical newsletter ads? Or nothing at all? How are free books doing in the marketplace?

Note I'm not asking if free books sell through to the rest of the series and make an eventual profit. I'd like to know just how much costly support I'd have to give a permafree book.

When I was in KU I did the newsletter (Bknights, Freebooksy, etc) once a quarter).  I did all five days at once and crammed as many promos into the five day period that would have me.  Lots of downloads during the promotion, slowed to a trickle, then eventually a drip.  One of the joys of being out of KU is I can scatter the promos further out.  The trickles are bigger and last a lot longer on the other sites.  Lots of people download off the free newsletters and those people may never read the book.  But I see it as paying to increase my ranking/visibility and I think the people who pick up the permafree, just by finding it when they are browsing, are more likely to read it as soon as they get it.  I can't prove that.  I look at my profitbaility over the year, not that I don't examine whether certain promos or ads are working well, but as far as profitability that's what I look at.  I didn't have much luck with Bookbub ads, I'm not on Facebook, and I just started experimenting with AMS a couple of weeks ago.
 

Lu Kudzoza

Re: Free and cheap...A race to the bottom!
« Reply #84 on: November 04, 2018, 04:45:05 AM »
I don't think books are being devalued any more than they have historically. What's changed is the perception of devaluation because it's more visible to the consumer. Lower prices are much easier to understand as devaluation than used book stores, discount racks, sharing books with friends, etc. So, because prices have come down we think books are being devalued, when in reality, if you did the math considering used book stores and such you'd probably come up with the same value as you're blatantly seeing in pricing now.

To answer the OP's question of what do you do now, you find an advertising and pricing model where you make money across all of the books in a series (or in your entire catalog). If you do the work, you'll be able to tailor a strategy that maximizes your overall profit.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2018, 04:48:06 AM by Not Lu »
 
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idontknowyet

Re: Free and cheap...A race to the bottom!
« Reply #85 on: November 04, 2018, 05:50:14 AM »
People who moan about the race to the bottom forget that books have been widely cheap and free within the past, say, 80 years or so--ever since pulp paperbacks flooded the market and ended up in bargain bins, garage sales and flea markets. Oh, and libraries. And library liquidation sales. And Goodwill type shops. And swaps, and borrowing from friends, and so on and so on.

If you aren't picky, you can get tons of print books very cheap. The current free/cheap market is the digital equivalent.

This is very true I've been buying books by the box for years and years. In it I would find a few I don't like, a few I love and buy everything from the author I can find, and a few I read and forget.  On a totally unrelated thought, I would love to buy a grab bag of virtual books in larger genres. Like 20 random books for $5. That would be really cool.
 
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PJ Post

Re: Free and cheap...A race to the bottom!
« Reply #86 on: November 05, 2018, 11:27:29 AM »
Thanks--in arguing against me, you are proving me right. I'm not sure why youre trying to disagree with me, except that you don't seem to see the implications of your own statements:

Okay…

This artificial price/monopoly stuff is just flat-out false, sorry. Traditional publishing is not and never has been a monopoly. At worst, it was a cartel, but even then, it never enjoyed monopolistic power because there are far too many small, medium and independent presses exerting their own pressure on the system, not to mention all of the independent book store chains that have only recently disappeared.

As for windowing, it’s an old strategy used to squeeze the most out of a market by stratifying the demographics by income and desire, (it also leverages the long tail really well). Scarcity is real in a non-zero marginal cost market. Print books are scarce, especially when there were far fewer of them. Windowing is, and was, genius.

However, it should be mentioned that it was this very principle of scarcity that allowed the second hand markets to flourish. They also sold books that were out of print or otherwise difficult to obtain. The second hand market benefited from high retail prices because a rising tide lifts all boats. As I said before, they were separate distribution channels, the new being largely unaffected by the used, but the used market was profoundly affected by new release pricing because they still represented poles of a single market. It’s one of those all squares are rectangles, but not all rectangles are squares things.

I said all of that hardcover/paperback stuff to say I have a lot of books. I bought some at full price, some at a discount, some at second hand stores and some at science fiction conventions, which means I bought some of them at a significant premium. I've even stood in line to buy books. And to be clear, I'm not some special snowflake. Lots of readers have favorite writers whose books they buy when they come out - even at full price.

Additionally, we need to account for the fact that price is not the only consideration involved in the consumer decision process, it’s not even the most important. This is a fact, a common sense one. Even when all of the candy is free, we still pick through the pumpkin to find the candy we prefer.

When I said a 'significant percentage', I was referring to enough demand to maintain high prices.

As to the question: how many books are sold? Again, enough to maintain these high prices - which is a direct response to satisfying existing demand. Excess demand would result in even higher prices, at least temporarily, a shortfall would bring downward pressure on pricing. So the demand for new books was stable (pre-Indie disruption) because it was enjoying an equilibrium of sorts.

And yes, some books were discounted, but that had more to do with prevailing retail theory/practice than any decline in demand. By the early 2000's, Cosco and Sam's Club were a thing, so were Outlet Stores. We can't look at publishing in a vacuum; there were other forces at play, but none of them were the used book market. Additionally, 'charting' new releases were often discounted to improve velocity and other non-revenue specific goals, such as gaining market share, as well as remaining competitive with warehouse and new release discount stores.

To be fair, these new retailers did affect pricing strategy, but the demographic these stores served was the mature market, not the early adopters. Sure, once a book broke out, it was everywhere, but not until - mid-listers need not apply. So it would be inaccurate to project one price-point based upon a single distribution channel catering to a single demographic as defining an entire industry.

Anecdotes and echo-chambers don’t define markets either.

So we can throw as much anti-traditional publishing rhetoric at it as we want, but the reality is that traditional publishing was extremely good at making money and the reason their business model worked is that there was enough demand to support it. It really is just that simple.

Also, I’m confused by this natural value price point. We had books selling on Amazon last year - 10 for 99 cents or even 20 for 99 cents. That's a nickel to a dime per novel. Is that the natural value you're talking about? That's about what a paperback novel was worth in 1939. By 1970 they were worth a buck, and we got all of the way up to $2.99 by 1980 or so - 38 years ago.

You're getting hung up on the packaging. The book is the experience, just like a movie. We don't pay for the film. Movie prices didn't go down when they switched to digital. And the prevailing price (natural value) for experience is whatever demand will support.

As for the tragedy of the commons, you're being too literal. Books are not the resource being discussed, this whole discussion pivots around consumer expectations. And the number of authors making bank has nothing to do with the analysis. We're talking about the change in consumer expectation (potential demand vis a vis price elasticity) from pre-Indie disruption to post-Indie disruption. Indies didn't exist yet (at least not as a primary player) so they have no role in defining market conditions prior to their arrival.

For those unfamiliar, this is how supply and demand works: you set your price as high as demand will allow, not as low as Amazon will let you get away with. It's called the equilibrium point, where demand equals supply at a specific price. It's a one to one correlation from the consumer perspective: as demand increases, so does price, as demand decreases, price follows. But on the supply side, it's an inverse relationship: as supply declines, prices go up due to scarcity. And the one we're all waiting for - as supply increases, price falls. Which is what has happened and what we would expect to happen, especially as books adopt commodity status.

However, we hit bottom long before the e-book market was saturated. And that is the crux of my argument. Amazon would never have started the KDP program if they had an adequate supply of e-books to promote their new reader. Full Stop. That is also a fact.

But, as we all know, they didn't, so they pulled down the gates and let us in. So when Indies raced to the bottom, there was still a shortage of digital content for readers and the prevailing price for traditional digital was $17. Supply and demand did not justify undercutting the market by ~1,600%. Full Stop. That’s yet another fact. But no one cared, because Indies only cared about undercutting each other. And we're back to not outrunning the bear, just your BFF.

As a general guide, we should never allow the rules printed on the peeling wooden sign over the entrance to the flea market to dictate industry pricing. Indies could only do what Amazon allowed them to do.

I did not say that everybody was better off before. I did imply traditional publishing was better off - and they were, without question. I have also said that we'd all be better off if Indies had not devalued their own market, which is also true. That's what led me to say you might have made more money.

But no, we're not necessarily all better off. Some of us are, yeah, and that kind of brings us back to the tragedy of the commons. We've all done way more than our fair share of f*cking creatives for generations to come. Yes, lots of creatives are making money, but it's becoming increasingly difficult to earn enough to do it full time - and the Arts suffer for that, and will continue to suffer. Say what you want about the old ways, but they actually nurtured artists and we got amazing results. Now, the mainstream is nothing but recycled, plasticized, low-risk fan service. We have to work to find original content, and I'm not just talking about books. It's really great we have more players, more outlets and opportunities - awesome in fact, but it sucks that consumers increasingly believe we should be doing it for free.

Indies have told readers that our novels are worth somewhere between a nickel and a dime a piece. That's the new price floor. It's a fact, do the math. 10-20 books for 99 cents. Our $2.99 go-to pricing is based on the 70% return set by Amazon, not market forces. If Amazon had set the 70% return at $1.49, then that would be the go-to price. Conversely, if the cutoff was $5.99, that would be the hot price point Coker would be talking about. I'm afraid our discussion is at an impasse if you can't understand this. The market did not readjust based upon supply and demand or natural values. Once we get past pro-Indie bias, the truth is obvious.

We did this, not uncontrollable market forces. As I said, it's happened to other industries and the narrative lines up just the same, the book industry isn’t special. The data is really really clear.

I'm discussing the point because it's really important that we find a way for creatives to do what they do full-time, not after work, you know, if they’re not too tired. We have to stop this second-class mindset that perpetuates this sh*t. And promoting the belief that our books are worth pennies, because the market says so - is as bad for business as it ever was, not to mention writer expectations.

It's also important that we find a way to bypass the current pay to play bullsh*t visibility scheme. We are writers, artists - we create experiences, call it whatever you want. We need to start thinking out of the box and incorporate new distribution and repackaging strategies that improve the monetization process. We have to find an independent way to connect with our readers, so we don't have to play by the flea market rules.

I mean, Jesus…what happens if the flea market closes?
 

CoraBuhlert

Re: Free and cheap...A race to the bottom!
« Reply #87 on: November 05, 2018, 12:43:24 PM »
Quote
Artificial pricing, monopoly pricing, is non-market pricing. That's precisely why democratic governments have anti-monopoly laws: to try to counteract naked attempts to manipulate the market, and that's what the publishers were doing. In fact, they were often colluding to protect their monopolies. It took Amazon to break their monopolies, which naturally resulted in lower ebook prices. Every non-monopoly player, whether indie or small publisher, ended up pricing their books closer to the natural market price. That was inevitable.

Democratic governments have anti-monopoly laws, true, but many democratic governments, including my own, also have fixed book price laws to prevent heavy discounting from destroying the market and driving smaller vendors out of business. And because the fixed book price laws only affect new books (in Germany, you have to keep the price stable for 18 months after publication), the used book market was never affected. I'm not one hundred percent happy with the fixed book price law - I do think buyers should be allowed to use store loyalty cards or coupons for books - but in general I support it, because I rather like having a lot of brick and mortar as well as online stores around. Coincidentally, the German fixed book price law only applies to German language books published in Germany, Austria or Switzerland.

The UK version of the fixed book price law was struck down sometime in the 1990s. Supermarkets, etc... started offering huge discounts on bestselling hardcovers, pulling the casual readers and the "I have to read this book everybody is talking about" away from bookstores. Within a couple of years, the UK book market went from having several bookstore chains and plenty of independents and used book stores to only two chains, one of which is more newsagent than bookstore, and a handful of independents.

As for whether indies have ruined the book market by undercutting the trads and each other, yes and no. Were US book prices too high before the e-book revolution? I think mass market paperback prices were okay. Hardcover prices were too high and trade paperback prices on the edge, but then I never bought hardcovers except for academic and references books and I only bought trades, if I couldn't get the book in mass market paperback. What is more, the science fiction, fantasy, crime fiction, romance novels, etc... I read all came out only in mass market paperback anyway, so hardcovers and trade paperbacks weren't even on my radar for many years. And because I've been buying mainly English language books since the late 1980s and was subject to the predatory pricing inflicted by the German distributors (where a 3.99 USD book would often cost three or four times the cover price), the price for an English language mass market paperback essentially didn't change for me for twenty years due to the exchange rate coming down and the hold of the distributors slipping, even as it went up from 3.99 to 7.99 USD in the US.  For a while, after Amazon came to town, but before the e-book revolution, mass market paperbacks actually got cheaper for me. Ironically, as someone who prefers to read print books, the e-book revolution has driven book prices up for me, because it killed off the mass market paperback, forcing me to switch to the pricier trades. And POD books, whether indie or small press, only come out in trade paperback anyway.

That said, e-book prices were extremely high in the beginning and Amazon's preferred (due to the 70% royalty) range of 2.99 to 9.99 USD is a lot more reasonable than 15 or 17 USD. 99 cent is a good price, too - for a standalone short story. 2.99 is a good price for a novella. However, the glut of full novels or even boxsets available for free and 99 cent made it very difficult for indies to sell standalone shorts or novellas for a reasonable price, even though traditional publishing still manages. For example, some of the Tor.com novellas cost up to 9.99 USD for Martha Wells' latest Murderbot novella (the older ones are 2.99). Harlequin charges 3.99 for 50000 word romances. A Perry Rhodan, John Sinclair or Jerry Cotton novelette (German pulp magazines) costs 1.99 EUR as an e-book and 2.20 EUR for the print novelette. All of those are reasonable prices except for the 9.99 novella (sorry, Martha Wells, I love Murderbot, but I'll wait until the price comes down or it shows up in the Hugo voter packet). 99 cent novels or even full box sets are not.

So in short, indies undercutting the more outrageous trad pub prices and bringing down e-book prices to a reasonable level was a good thing, but sadly they didn't know where and when to stop.       

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David VanDyke

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Re: Free and cheap...A race to the bottom!
« Reply #88 on: November 05, 2018, 12:58:26 PM »
PJ Post: Yeah, we've gotten to the point where you've proven you're not even living in the same universe as everyone else. You've built up a theoretical framework that doesn't connect with reality, rather like the economic side of Marxism. It seems like it might work on paper, but it's never actually functioned when implemented.

I can only observe what works for me, and works for people like me (in the business sense). I make a living doing this. Others who make an honest, non-scamming living doing with work within the framework of economic reality.

I suggest that trying to force a business model to work when it doesn't conform to reality, and when you don't actually understand the terms you are using (misusing, in the case of the Tragedy of the Commons), generally inhibits the ability to make money in that business (or to grow your market share, if that's your goal).

And because of this, the discussion is fruitless, and I won't be responding anymore.

I'll keep on with what I'm doing, gladly writing books and getting paid (by my estimate) a "devalued" price of approximately $100K per book over its lifetime, because I've conformed by business model to reality--as have thousand of working authors--thousands more than used to make a living as authors, out here in the free market. (see: Who Moved My Cheese).

On the other hand, you're welcome to do it your own way, whatever that is, in line with your theories, and succeed or fail on your own merits, without me or anyone else telling you what to do. That's the beauty of the new digital market: there's room for everyone, not just those who the traditionals allow into their closed ecosystem.

So, good luck.


Never listen to people with no skin in the game.

I'm a lucky guy. I find the harder I work, the luckier I am.

Those who prefer their English sloppy have only themselves to thank if the advertisement writer uses his mastery of the vocabulary and syntax to mislead their weak minds.

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Lu Kudzoza

Re: Free and cheap...A race to the bottom!
« Reply #89 on: November 06, 2018, 03:16:57 AM »

Indies have told readers that our novels are worth somewhere between a nickel and a dime a piece. That's the new price floor. It's a fact, do the math. 10-20 books for 99 cents. Our $2.99 go-to pricing is based on the 70% return set by Amazon, not market forces. If Amazon had set the 70% return at $1.49, then that would be the go-to price. Conversely, if the cutoff was $5.99, that would be the hot price point Coker would be talking about. I'm afraid our discussion is at an impasse if you can't understand this. The market did not readjust based upon supply and demand or natural values. Once we get past pro-Indie bias, the truth is obvious.

We did this, not uncontrollable market forces. As I said, it's happened to other industries and the narrative lines up just the same, the book industry isn’t special. The data is really really clear.


PJ, you're correct that "We" did this. Who is "We"? It's authors creating books that supply the market. With millions of books being added to supply every year an author has to be visible in order to get people reading their work. It sucks, but it's the hard cold reality. Pricing low is one way to get visibility. Paying for advertising is also a strategy some authors use. Once you get people reading your work you can move onto your next point.



It's also important that we find a way to bypass the current pay to play bullsh*t visibility scheme. We are writers, artists - we create experiences, call it whatever you want. We need to start thinking out of the box and incorporate new distribution and repackaging strategies that improve the monetization process. We have to find an independent way to connect with our readers, so we don't have to play by the flea market rules.

I mean, Jesus…what happens if the flea market closes?


You're thinking like an author. Books don't sell themselves without visibility first. You have to use bullsh*t visibility schemes (I call them strategies) to get people reading your work. If your work is good, you can move onto the next step in running a business -- customer retention... or as you put it, "an independent way to connect with our readers, so we don't have to play by the flea market rules."

There are several steps in building a brand and connecting with your readers. Unfortunately, in today's world, you might have to employ some distasteful pricing and marketing strategies before you can stop playing by the flea market rules.
 

PJ Post

Re: Free and cheap...A race to the bottom!
« Reply #90 on: November 06, 2018, 03:18:30 PM »
PJ, you're correct that "We" did this. Who is "We"? It's authors creating books that supply the market. With millions of books being added to supply every year an author has to be visible in order to get people reading their work. It sucks, but it's the hard cold reality. Pricing low is one way to get visibility. Paying for advertising is also a strategy some authors use. Once you get people reading your work you can move onto your next point.

The 'We' I was mostly discussing was self-publishers operating between 2010 and 2012 because that's when we hit bottom. As I said up-thread, I wasn't really addressing current business strategy. In fact, I think I said this...

I think it's important to remember that when we discuss 'the race to the bottom', we're talking about it in the past tense. The race to the bottom happened six years ago when Indies...

You're thinking like an author. Books don't sell themselves without visibility first. You have to use bullsh*t visibility schemes (I call them strategies) to get people reading your work. If your work is good, you can move onto the next step in running a business -- customer retention... or as you put it, "an independent way to connect with our readers, so we don't have to play by the flea market rules."

There are several steps in building a brand and connecting with your readers. Unfortunately, in today's world, you might have to employ some distasteful pricing and marketing strategies before you can stop playing by the flea market rules.

I'm thinking like a businessperson with many many years of experience. This isn't my first rodeo.

There's nothing distasteful about marketing or promotions or advertising, but bullsh*t visibility schemes are not the same thing. Traditional promotions result in organic, trackable metrics. On the other hand, Amazon has greatly diminished organic visibility in favor of their pay to play system, AMS. I'm not saying it doesn't work, it is clearly being leveraged by a lot of people quite successfully; but what I am saying is that it's a closed ecosystem, one that's controlled by a company selling both the book and its visibility (otherwise known as access). That sounds a lot like a racket scheme to me. And I think it's a problem, and I think it's going to become an even larger problem moving forward as more and more online retailers follow suit relative to third-party vendors.

Many of us predicted some kind of pay to play system a few years back, and this is what we got. My understanding is that the monthly AMS spend necessary to be competitive is now completely out of reach for most new writers. Please, correct me if my information on this is incorrect.

I think we - the collective current 'we' - should be rethinking our dependence on a company that could shut us all out tomorrow on a whim. We're a tiny piece of the Amazon financial empire, and no, they don't need us to lure new customers to Prime. I wish I had some answers, but I'm still rethinking everything.

And because this is the internet: No, I'm not saying David, or anyone else, should be doing anything one way or the other. We all have to do what works for us. If it ain't broke, blah blah f*cking blah.

...and when you don't actually understand the terms you are using (misusing, in the case of the Tragedy of the Commons) *snip*


I'm pretty sure it's why we can't have nice things.