Now I know why I will never get a BookBub

[LilyBLily]

I submitted my fourth women's fiction novel to BookBub but only for an international deal. Hemmed and hawed and decided "Why not?" YOLO, and so on.

[Rod Little]

So far, I am not sanguine about this international BookBub. I thought the ad copy BB wrote was particularly weak, and I am not surprised that the sales reported are meh. I think it's possible I will break even but I would be shocked if there was a profit. Bummer. 

Their ad copy for mine was weak, too, and demonstrated they had no idea what my book was about. The int'l BB had mediocre results. I think it was break-even with some minor sell-thru.

[LilyBLily]

So far, I am not sanguine about this international BookBub. I thought the ad copy BB wrote was particularly weak, and I am not surprised that the sales reported are meh. I think it's possible I will break even but I would be shocked if there was a profit. Bummer. 

Their ad copy for mine was weak, too, and demonstrated they had no idea what my book was about. The int'l BB had mediocre results. I think it was break-even with some minor sell-thru.

That's a shame. 

With the current submission I basically wrote the ad copy in the comment section, since that one also needs the right copy or forget it. BB is a shiny object that distracts. I'm almost ready to move on. 

BookBub is now sending me a separate newsletter filled with trad pub titles, all of them $1.99 and up. The advertisers are paying a lot for these, but there is nothing in my BB buying history to encourage BB to believe I'd buy any of these books.  And there's a third that claims to be new releases discounted. And then there are all the partner newsletters pushing their blog and their simplistic advice. I can't be the only person who feels inundated with newsletters from this one company. That has to affect the effectiveness of their main newsletter.

[Eric Thomson]

I've given up on BB. And just to add insult to injury, I'm having a hard time adding new releases to "My Books" It took me half a dozen tries for one before it showed up in my books and I'm still trying for the other. It wouldn't surprise me if BB's day is over, at least for us non-trad publishers.

[LilyBLily]

I can't find the thread on Hello Books but since I mentioned it upstream, here are the results of my weekend promo: It cost $25 and has earned about $10. I'd say that puts Hello Books in the ranks of so-so and overpriced newsletter ads, only useful when doing a big splash launch. It also requires a newsletter and social media cross promotion on the author's part, and paying for that when BookFunnel and other services have plenty of those group promos, all free, seems unnecessary.

[idontknowyet]

I kinda think its crazy that they charge when at this part they are harvesting 'our' audiences to build theirs.


They get more from it than the individual authors.

[LilyBLily]

The weird thing is I got an email saying it cost $15, but no, it cost $25. The other disappointment is that it does not share any of Mark Dawson's huge audience. I don't write thrillers so I may be mistaken about that, and of course there are some ethical issues about sharing audiences, but that's the whole point of these author group promotions in which each author does a newsletter puffing the group's books. I did them for many months and saw no huge advantage, but I suppose I could try them again (free) through BookFunnel now that my Amazon ads are turned off and get a purer result.

[LilyBLily]

 

My face is red. According to BookBub, I never asked for the recent deal to include Barnes & Noble. You know how in their page listing the stores it always claims they don't have the B&N link? I'm sure I put it in, but they say I didn't. I have no proof, but regardless, BookBub did not point my ad to B&N and that accounts for lost sales of $100 at minimum. The difference between break even and a modest profit. Sigh.

 

[TimothyEllis]

According to BookBub, I never asked for the recent deal to include Barnes & Noble. You know how in their page listing the stores it always claims they don't have the B&N link? I'm sure I put it in, but they say I didn't. I have no proof

Take a photo of the next one.

[Anarchist]

I can't find the thread on Hello Books but since I mentioned it upstream, here are the results of my weekend promo: It cost $25 and has earned about $10. I'd say that puts Hello Books in the ranks of so-so and overpriced newsletter ads, only useful when doing a big splash launch. It also requires a newsletter and social media cross promotion on the author's part, and paying for that when BookFunnel and other services have plenty of those group promos, all free, seems unnecessary.

When Hello Books first launched, I subbed and began watching the non-fiction titles promoted in it. I saw very little movement in those books' sales ranks. For example, a non-fic book in the top position at $0.99 would have a 100,000+ sales rank the day of the promo. The day after, 80,000.

Uninspiring.

[LilyBLily]

I did write them back and gently suggest that I had filled in the appropriate information, but this is a dead issue now. Since I don't expect to do another BB ad this year (even though I did apply), I'll just remember, if I ever get another, to take a screen shot and later double check the page that shows where the ad will point (a page I didn't even know about until now). I am not likely to forget having lost money on a simple glitch.



 

[LilyBLily]

I did write them back and gently suggest that I had filled in the appropriate information, but this is a dead issue now. Since I don't expect to do another BB ad this year (even though I did apply), I'll just remember, if I ever get another, to take a screen shot and later double check the page that shows where the ad will point (a page I didn't even know about until now). I am not likely to forget having lost money on a simple glitch.

Okay, I'm confused again. B&N is US only and you did an international BookBub. The real question is what happened to the sales from the other newsletters you used.

PS I always forget B&N is US only. Trips me up every time I do an international-only BookBub.

Yes, it's strange, but the prior two BB ads sold hundreds of copies via B&N. I don't exactly know where! And it's a good question about the other newsletters. I got yet another answer from B&N insisting there was only one sale during that period. Just one.

[LilyBLily]

Good idea about buying a copy to see if the sale is properly reported by B&N. The title is back to full price now, though, and I will try with my next discounted title instead. 

The sales that did not happen would have been through BookBub, no question in my mind. I've never had another newsletter deliver hundreds of sales, ever. 

[LilyBLily]

The Amazon.com sales were 25%-30% of what .au, .ca, or .uk were. Not derived from a U.S. Bookbub ad. Probably from international customers who shop .com, but could also be from hangovers from the stacked U.S. ads.

B&N's website says it welcomes international customers but only sells in the U.S. BB must have lots of international readers on its list who buy from B&N.

[LilyBLily]

It still doesn't explain where those B&N sales went. I think it's a problem with B&N. Being somewhat stubborn, I would buy my own books to check sales are recording. I would even run up PPC ads targeting B&N just to prove my point, then I would hunt B&N down.

But that's just me. 

BookBub says they did not include a B&N link in their ad. Hence, no sales. That's what I said above. Apparently, I did not add the B&N link. Dang.

[LilyBLily]

It still doesn't explain where those B&N sales went. I think it's a problem with B&N. Being somewhat stubborn, I would buy my own books to check sales are recording. I would even run up PPC ads targeting B&N just to prove my point, then I would hunt B&N down.

But that's just me. 

BookBub says they did not include a B&N link in their ad. Hence, no sales. That's what I said above. Apparently, I did not add the B&N link. Dang.

But you can't add a B&N link in an international-only, can you?

BookBub asks for one, and the sales on B&N on prior BB international deals are proof the customers exist. 

[LilyBLily]

Silly me, I did not take a screen shot of my recent submission to BookBub, either, and can't recall if a B&N link was asked for. I did apply only for international, though.

Doesn't matter, as they've just turned the book down, ending my streak. Frankly, I am relieved. There's a Google ads webinar today I'm planning to attend and they and the other ads offer more promise than any number of international BookBubs do.

[alhawke]

I'll throw this out here. I've thought of it for a while now. You guys let me know if you've seen the trend.

Seems to me that more books are being advertised on BookBub newsletters than ever before. Although that means more acceptances, it means lower performance. I actually think this is happening across the board with all the promo companies. Probably it's to offset promo costs because, obviously, they make more money the more authors come on board and pay.

Why mention it? It bodes lower performance.

[LilyBLily]

The Google ads webinar was run by Siteground and was at the basic level and went too fast, but it gave a few good tips and was a good overview of what Google ads can do.

I'm happy to see that Google ads have negative keyword targeting. I hope theirs words better than Amazon's.

[LilyBLily]

To add to Tweek's thoughts, in my longtime experience with people coming into the romance field with an eye mostly on profits and promotion rather than on telling a heartfelt romance story, there is a defined arc to their usually meteoric rise. Then they vanish. They're very good at the selling part but not so good at the storytelling part. Even with the vast Harlequin machine behind them back in the day, they often could not create a loyal following. It's the same thing today. Readers can tell the difference between someone who writes a light entertainment lightly and someone who puts heart in it. Readers will read both, but they become loyal fans of the author with heart.

So why do these successful self-promoters vanish? Maybe because they earned X dollars and are bored with writing and have gone on to another challenge. Maybe because they wanted to make a bigger splash than they did and have decided to use their talents doing something that gives them a better return on their effort. And maybe because they wanted to prove a point and they did and that was enough. Some very talented authors have left the field not for economic reasons at all but because they had other things they wanted to do with their lives.

When I got into indie publishing, many people were announcing that they had quit their day jobs. It was a wonderful, heady period but it did not last. I suspect as Tweek says that many did not find success with their next books. They're probably back at their old jobs, although I hope for their sakes they saved some of the fleeting big money and took some financial pressure off themselves.

[alhawke]

When I got into indie publishing, many people were announcing that they had quit their day jobs. It was a wonderful, heady period but it did not last.

Why do I always do things at the wrong time? But maybe it's a good thing. Maybe it means people entering the biz will have a passion for it and strive to put out better stuff. I dunno. Or maybe I'm an idiot. 
Regarding newsletters and more books, I wish I had the stats. I don't. But over the past year I've noticed at least an additional book or two snuck in BB and the like.

[LilyBLily]

When I got into indie publishing, many people were announcing that they had quit their day jobs. It was a wonderful, heady period but it did not last.

Why do I always do things at the wrong time? But maybe it's a good thing. Maybe it means people entering the biz will have a passion for it and strive to put out better stuff. I dunno. Or maybe I'm an idiot. 
Regarding newsletters and more books, I wish I had the stats. I don't. But over the past year I've noticed at least an additional book or two snuck in BB and the like.

I wasn't there for the beginning of the gold rush, either. It was ending during the year it took me to get ready to publish my first books. I needed and got the life-changing ability to write novels and get them published without interference by people wanting to create a factory production line. I'm happy about that.

[Simon Haynes]

The BB emails have the featured deals, then the 'you might also like' section which is somewhat less relevant, and then the usual ad for free/99c stuff at the bottom.

I skim them these days - partly because if I select to see deals from Amazon.com, half the deals aren't available in Australia (anything from major publishers, basically), and if I use amazon.com.au when I click on a deal it asks me to transfer my account from amazon.com to australia (not happening), and THEN I go to amazon.com and discover the deal is international only.

Screwed both ways, to be honest. Makes the emails useless, but I like to see what's going on anyway.

[TimothyEllis]

I am wondering now how Vella will affect KU. Fair to say some of the subscribers might prefer the Vella model and leave KU.

I don't think that will happen much.

KU is mainly used by people with big reading habits, and very short pockets.

Vella as far as I can see will cost a lot more over the long haul than KU does.

[alhawke]

... half the deals aren't available in Australia (anything from major publishers, basically), and if I use amazon.com.au when I click on a deal it asks me to transfer my account from amazon.com to australia (not happening), and THEN I go to amazon.com and discover the deal is international only.

Some entrepreneur should work the international market. Surprising newsletters are so US based only.

[JRTomlin]

When I got into indie publishing, many people were announcing that they had quit their day jobs. It was a wonderful, heady period but it did not last. I suspect as Tweek says that many did not find success with their next books. They're probably back at their old jobs, although I hope for their sakes they saved some of the fleeting big money and took some financial pressure off themselves.

This business has always been a bit like Amazon itself; big egos and a lot of smoke and mirrors. It's always seemed less about how well and author is doing and more about what it looks like they're doing. To that end, a lot of the so-called successful authors were actually modestly successful. It always made me chuckle when people judged earnings by revenue and not profit.

I suspect some people experienced a level of success, but have progressively found their profit margins declining, and it's taking more and more marketing money and books to get the same earnings. I am wondering now how Vella will affect KU. Fair to say some of the subscribers might prefer the Vella model and leave KU.

Very few authors have EVER been able to actually make a living at writing. Those of us who have need to count ourselves very lucky indeed. I do think that there is a somewhat larger number who do now but it is still a tiny percentage of the people who write.

It is taking more marketing than ever before as well. And access to marketing is more competitive. Still, I'm in no position to complain.

[LilyBLily]

Plenty of kids shooting baskets think they're going to be the next LeBron James, too. People need dreams, and there's nothing wrong with being ambitious. Successes happen all the time. The odds never are particularly good, though.

There's usually a moment when any hot new trend can be leaped on to produce a huge profit. It's fleeting. Most people aren't able to hop on it, and even the ones who do usually can't pivot fast enough to keep hopping on the next new trend, and the next, and the next.

Ebooks were a hot new trend ten years ago. They aren't anymore. It's easier than ever for new authors to make their mark and earn significant income, but not from the sheer novelty of releasing an ebook. That's the grounding new authors need to understand.

[PaulineMRoss]

When I got into indie publishing, many people were announcing that they had quit their day jobs. It was a wonderful, heady period but it did not last. I suspect as Tweek says that many did not find success with their next books. They're probably back at their old jobs, although I hope for their sakes they saved some of the fleeting big money and took some financial pressure off themselves.

It was indeed a wonderful, heady period, and part of the euphoria was that it seemed as if all you had to do was knock out a few pot-boilers and sit back and watch the money roll in, while you leaf through the yacht catalogues. And for some people, it really was like that, but for most, not so much.

So those who were serious knuckled down, got thoroughly professional and planned a career rather than crossing their fingers. And you know what? For a lot of them, it worked. They became successful, and they're still successful, still making a living from this game.

And that strategy is still working today. Admittedly, there are still people who reverse into success (like me, for instance), but I know of a number of indie authors in my genre who have built successful careers from a standing start in the last two or three years. Some of them group together to haul each other up, which is a very successful strategy, but true independents can do it too, just a bit more slowly.

So I disagree with the whole 'golden age' thinking. We're still in the golden age, and although it might be a bit more work to get going, and take a bit more money and/or planning, it's perfectly possible.

[JRTomlin]

Well, shockarooney, I just got a BB US/int'l promo, my 1st since July of last year. I did go several months without applying for one though and got that int'l one. It's a freebie for A King Imperiled so it is still possible to get one. Just don't count on it happening very often.

I still prefer 99˘ ones but I'll take the freebie.

[LilyBLily]

Well, shockarooney, I just got a BB US/int'l promo, my 1st since July of last year. I did go several months without applying for one though and got that int'l one. It's a freebie for A King Imperiled so it is still possible to get one. Just don't count on it happening very often.

I still prefer 99˘ ones but I'll take the freebie.

Whoa! Congratulations! 

[Crystal]

I thought Amazon said 1,000 authors earned 100k and it was unclear if they meant more than 1000 or only 1000.

I assume they meant 1000 but not enough to justify saying 2000. So potentially up to 1400 or so.

Some of those people earn less with ad spend. Some earn more from other platforms.

[notthatamanda]

Well, shockarooney, I just got a BB US/int'l promo, my 1st since July of last year. I did go several months without applying for one though and got that int'l one. It's a freebie for A King Imperiled so it is still possible to get one. Just don't count on it happening very often.

I still prefer 99˘ ones but I'll take the freebie.

Congratulations and good luck.

[alhawke]

Well, shockarooney, I just got a BB US/int'l promo, my 1st since July of last year. I did go several months without applying for one though and got that int'l one. It's a freebie for A King Imperiled so it is still possible to get one. Just don't count on it happening very often.

I still prefer 99˘ ones but I'll take the freebie.

Congrats! Wishing you many sales.   

[R. C.]

I'm Oh-Fer-Four but this time the rejection took a lot longer.

Not sure why it required a couple of weeks to say no, but I take it as a positive. See there, silver linings are everywhere if you look hard enough,

R.C.

[LilyBLily]

I'm Oh-Fer-Four but this time the rejection took a lot longer.

Not sure why it required a couple of weeks to say no, but I take it as a positive. See there, silver linings are everywhere if you look hard enough,

R.C.

 

[lea_owens]

Congratulations to anyone who can get a BB.

I've tried for 100 or more BBs and never had any luck - I start for a .99 feature, and work down to a free all places then free international, but they've never looked at me. My last try was for a free promotion of my most popular book because I was releasing a sequel - it had almost 300 reviews and 85% of them were five-star and 10% four-star, so it should have ticked the right boxes (it now has 339 - same ratio).

So, I went back to Nicholas Erik's promotional list and did a stack of Fussy Librarian, FreeBooksy, Book Cave, BookDoggy, and Red Roses Romance for a free promotion - the total cost was about half a BB, I had 6,700 downloads, and the book went to #20 overall free (that position probably fueled most of the downloads) and #1 in all categories. The sequel has made nearly $2,000 in six weeks, so I'm happy with the stacked promotion.

I'd still love to try a get a BB one day, but they're not interested in any of my books. I've seen some blinking awful and ordinary books promoted on BB with barely any reviews and I figure I must have offended someone there at some stage.

[Rod Little]

I've seen some blinking awful and ordinary books promoted on BB with barely any reviews and I figure I must have offended someone there at some stage.

I've seen a lot lately that have me scratching my head. Recently saw one with 11 reviews and a spelling error in the blurb.  - and yet it got chosen over others. I have a feeling it's "who you know" that matters and not what you're promoting (like anything in life).

[TimothyEllis]

I've seen a lot lately that have me scratching my head. Recently saw one with 11 reviews and a spelling error in the blurb.  - and yet it got chosen over others. I have a feeling it's "who you know" that matters and not what you're promoting (like anything in life).

More like the whims of the selectors. They only select what they like reading.

Probably about editing as well. I'm pretty sure they reject me because I don't edit to literary standards. I write rollicking yarns, and not literature. But if the selector prefers literature, anyone not writing that way will get rejected.

[Doglover]

I've never applied for a Bookbub, but I did read their guide to getting one. It talked a lot about the importance of an excellent cover, then showed some examples. They all looked like they'd been drawn by a three year old! I certainly wouldn't have looked at a book with one of their prime examples.

[TimothyEllis]

I've never applied for a Bookbub, but I did read their guide to getting one. It talked a lot about the importance of an excellent cover, then showed some examples. They all looked like they'd been drawn by a three year old! I certainly wouldn't have looked at a book with one of their prime examples.

I had that argument with Podium once.

They wanted to do new covers for the audiobooks, and pointed me towards examples of their artist's work.

All of them were to my eyes horrendous, and very very Trad.

I think that attitude also prevails at BB.

[notthatamanda]

I've seen some blinking awful and ordinary books promoted on BB with barely any reviews and I figure I must have offended someone there at some stage.

I've seen a lot lately that have me scratching my head. Recently saw one with 11 reviews and a spelling error in the blurb.  - and yet it got chosen over others. I have a feeling it's "who you know" that matters and not what you're promoting (like anything in life).

Was that an international one?

[LilyBLily]

I certainly do not know anyone at BookBub, nor am I connected otherwise. I don't think "knowing somebody" would move BB's needle at all. My women's fiction titles were well branded but had few reviews, and BB did decline the one with the fewest. That's how I started this thread, talking about having very few reviews likely doomed me to never get a BookBub ad. 

All three BB internationals have increased my reviews/ratings. Mostly with ratings. I'm happy about that.

I routinely check out books BB advertises, and many of them are castigated by reviewers as the worst that author has ever written. However, the author has a name and a following. Or the author has a good cover and the setup of the plot looks plausible for its genre; it's how it plays out that readers dislike. So, yes, there are plenty of not-very-good novels being advertised on BB. But people do buy bad novels as long as they fulfill most of their requirements. Then they complain about what is lacking.   

[Rod Little]

I've seen some blinking awful and ordinary books promoted on BB with barely any reviews and I figure I must have offended someone there at some stage.

I've seen a lot lately that have me scratching my head. Recently saw one with 11 reviews and a spelling error in the blurb.  - and yet it got chosen over others. I have a feeling it's "who you know" that matters and not what you're promoting (like anything in life).

Was that an international one?

I only get the US BB.

[JRTomlin]

I've seen some blinking awful and ordinary books promoted on BB with barely any reviews and I figure I must have offended someone there at some stage.

I've seen a lot lately that have me scratching my head. Recently saw one with 11 reviews and a spelling error in the blurb.  - and yet it got chosen over others. I have a feeling it's "who you know" that matters and not what you're promoting (like anything in life).

I have had about 20 promos with BB and I assure you that it is not that I know someone there, because I don't. I have no connections. The closest I've come to knowing someone there is a signature in a (generally form) email.

[Rod Little]

Their selection process seems quite random. The only two they ever accepted of mine were standalones with few reviews (and nothing to brag about - but, selected anyway!). Meanwhile, I would prefer to promote my 1st in series, but it has always been turned down - despite having 350+ reviews and 1 award + a write-up in USA Today. Rejected, nonetheless. But, give us that standalone with only 29 reviews, thanks.
So ... random it is!  Trying to make sense of it is pointless. They choose what they like, period.

I keep applying with that one series starter twice a year, in any case. You never know.

[idontknowyet]

It seems like once they give you a few bb its easier to get them.

Just like amazon they're goal is to sell books. If you have a person with established great results why not pick them over an unknown that might or might not resonate with their audience. Bird in hand and all that.

[JRTomlin]

I have a feeling that may be the case although I've seen them say that it isn't.

[alhawke]

It seems like once they give you a few bb its easier to get them.

Not true for me as of late, but I keep trying.

[LilyBLily]

I intend to submit the most successful title of my three recent BB internationals for a U.S. 99-cent run circa the holidays. Because that book has more legs than the other two, I think I can make a pretty good case for it with BB. They'll be inundated with submissions around then, but I am going to try.

 

[JRTomlin]

I certainly get them a lot less often than I used to. There was a time when probably I got one out of three submissions. Now it's more like one out of 20, if I'm lucky.