Should I use this?

[Doglover]

Sorry for the obscure title, but I couldn't really think of one. Anyway, here is the tale: On a documentary on television, a minor member of the British nobility made a really stupid, pretentious remark which gave me an idea for a new novel. What I want is opinions on whether I can use this remark in my novel.

It wasn't very long, and as it was him talking for himself I don't think it's plagiarism. The chances of him reading my book are highly unlikely anyway. But it was so beautifully arrogant, I really, really want to use it. It will be said by one of my character, not the baron in question (I can't remember who is was anyway).

So, what's the consensus?

[Maggie Ann]

Can you paraphrase it a bit without losing the essence?

[Doglover]

Can you paraphrase it a bit without losing the essence?

Not sure. Perhaps I can explain.

The programme is a series about owners of our ancient stately homes, always desperate for money. Some have leased their land to circus people to open wildlife parks, some open their houses to the public, some have turned them over to the National Trust. But a new thing seems to be to rent out rooms or whole wings to us common folks, for some exorbitant price, for nights or weekends.

One was a baron who was talking to his common guests and telling them how things had changed and how class didn't matter so much any more. But, when the guest asked how he would feel if one of his children married one of hers, he was horrified. His words were: no, no, you have to keep the clever genes together. You can't make a pitbull out of a pekingese.

So, I want to use it. After all, it is priceless, isn't it?

[LilyBLily]

OMG.

[Doglover]

OMG.

My first thought was 'you absolute pratt' but OMG will do.

[notthatamanda]

I vote for paraphrasing:  No, no, we can't mix our genes with the commons ones.  You don't breed a champion poodle with a pitbull.

With a little work you can make it even more arrogant and condescending.  You could switch it to horse breeds too.  And also, wow.

Edit - Oh dear, I got more.

No, no.  That would be like breeding my champion bitch with some shelter mutt.  The genes, you see, it's all in the DNA.

[Doglover]

I vote for paraphrasing:  No, no, we can't mix our genes with the commons ones.  You don't breed a champion poodle with a pitbull.

With a little work you can make it even more arrogant and condescending.  You could switch it to horse breeds too.  And also, wow.

I don't know enough about horse breeds, but dog breeds I do know about. Considering that pitbulls are banned in this country, it's rather a laugh. I also know a bit about historical class distinction. I mean, he was only a baron, ffs. Perhaps that's his problem.

My second thought was that his ancestor probably got given the title and estate for pimping for the king or wiping his arse and what's clever about that? One just has to make fun of one's 'betters'. 

[RiverRun]

Wow.

I know nothing about the legality of this, although I wouldn't actually use it as is, just because I try to stay away from anything I'm not sure about.

Although I'm not sure which one is supposed to be the better one in this case. I don't think of a pit bull as particularly clever, but the pekinese I've known don't seem outstandingly smart either. But I've never owned either, so I don't know much.

I like the alliteration of pitbull and pekinese, but maybe there are other dog breeds you could substitute for the comparison?

A pitbull from a pug?

A retriever from a rat terrier?

Horses maybe: a thoroughbred from a mule?

Weird to try to think up a metaphor for insulting people.

You could replace clever with smart? Intelligent?

[Doglover]

Wow.

I know nothing about the legality of this, although I wouldn't actually use it as is, just because I try to stay away from anything I'm not sure about.

Although I'm not sure which one is supposed to be the better one in this case. I don't think of a pit bull as particularly clever, but the pekinese I've known don't seem outstandingly smart either. But I've never owned either, so I don't know much.

I like the alliteration of pitbull and pekinese, but maybe there are other dog breeds you could substitute for the comparison?

A pitbull from a pug?

A retriever from a rat terrier?

Horses maybe: a thoroughbred from a mule?

Weird to try to think up a metaphor for insulting people.

You could replace clever with smart? Intelligent?

I think the comparison was to do with the idea, in England at least, that a pekingese is an old lady's lap dog who gets carried everywhere, fed on the best salmon and snaps at everyone. A pitbull is more an idea of a tough man's dog.

If he knew anything about dogs, he would have made the superior breed a German Shepherd; they are a very clever breed.

I am of the opinion that, as the baron actually said this, on tv, it is not slander as it's true and I don't intend to name names anyway, even if I could remember them. But perhaps the copyright belongs to the BBC?

[Maggie Ann]

Can you paraphrase it a bit without losing the essence?

Not sure. Perhaps I can explain.

The programme is a series about owners of our ancient stately homes, always desperate for money. Some have leased their land to circus people to open wildlife parks, some open their houses to the public, some have turned them over to the National Trust. But a new thing seems to be to rent out rooms or whole wings to us common folks, for some exorbitant price, for nights or weekends.

One was a baron who was talking to his common guests and telling them how things had changed and how class didn't matter so much any more. But, when the guest asked how he would feel if one of his children married one of hers, he was horrified. His words were: no, no, you have to keep the clever genes together. You can't make a pitbull out of a pekingese.

So, I want to use it. After all, it is priceless, isn't it?

Absolutely priceless! I can see why you want to use it as he said it. Maybe this would work?

No, no, you have to keep the brilliant (or maybe even beautiful) genes together. You can't make a golden retriever out of a mutt.

[Doglover]

Can you paraphrase it a bit without losing the essence?

Not sure. Perhaps I can explain.

The programme is a series about owners of our ancient stately homes, always desperate for money. Some have leased their land to circus people to open wildlife parks, some open their houses to the public, some have turned them over to the National Trust. But a new thing seems to be to rent out rooms or whole wings to us common folks, for some exorbitant price, for nights or weekends.

One was a baron who was talking to his common guests and telling them how things had changed and how class didn't matter so much any more. But, when the guest asked how he would feel if one of his children married one of hers, he was horrified. His words were: no, no, you have to keep the clever genes together. You can't make a pitbull out of a pekingese.

So, I want to use it. After all, it is priceless, isn't it?

Absolutely priceless! I can see why you want to use it as he said it. Maybe this would work?

No, no, you have to keep the brilliant (or maybe even beautiful) genes together. You can't make a golden retriever out of a mutt.

Beautiful? Have you taken a look at all that inbreeding lately? 

[LilyBLily]

I wonder which the baron thinks his illustrious heritage is, the pitbull or the pekinese? If it's an old title, probably there was a pitbull involved.

In my family many hundreds of years ago, there was an incident that resulted in a pile of fortune and privilege. Technically, the incident was treason. Their side won, so instead of being beheaded they got rich. I rather imagine they were pitbulls. (We're all much better behaved these days, and considerably poorer.)

[Doglover]

I wonder which the baron thinks his illustrious heritage is, the pitbull or the pekinese? If it's an old title, probably there was a pitbull involved.

In my family many hundreds of years ago, there was an incident that resulted in a pile of fortune and privilege. Technically, the incident was treason. Their side won, so instead of being beheaded they got rich. I rather imagine they were pitbulls. (We're all much better behaved these days, and considerably poorer.)

I would love to know more of that story. The most exciting thing in my ancestry is a direct ancestor who was hanged in 1776 for horsetheft!

[Maggie Ann]

Can you paraphrase it a bit without losing the essence?

Not sure. Perhaps I can explain.

The programme is a series about owners of our ancient stately homes, always desperate for money. Some have leased their land to circus people to open wildlife parks, some open their houses to the public, some have turned them over to the National Trust. But a new thing seems to be to rent out rooms or whole wings to us common folks, for some exorbitant price, for nights or weekends.

One was a baron who was talking to his common guests and telling them how things had changed and how class didn't matter so much any more. But, when the guest asked how he would feel if one of his children married one of hers, he was horrified. His words were: no, no, you have to keep the clever genes together. You can't make a pitbull out of a pekingese.

So, I want to use it. After all, it is priceless, isn't it?

Absolutely priceless! I can see why you want to use it as he said it. Maybe this would work?

No, no, you have to keep the brilliant (or maybe even beautiful) genes together. You can't make a golden retriever out of a mutt.

Beautiful? Have you taken a look at all that inbreeding lately? 

If they still think a title makes them clever, they probably also think they are the standard of beauty. 

[RiverRun]

Wow.

I know nothing about the legality of this, although I wouldn't actually use it as is, just because I try to stay away from anything I'm not sure about.

Although I'm not sure which one is supposed to be the better one in this case. I don't think of a pit bull as particularly clever, but the pekinese I've known don't seem outstandingly smart either. But I've never owned either, so I don't know much.

I like the alliteration of pitbull and pekinese, but maybe there are other dog breeds you could substitute for the comparison?

A pitbull from a pug?

A retriever from a rat terrier?

Horses maybe: a thoroughbred from a mule?

Weird to try to think up a metaphor for insulting people.

You could replace clever with smart? Intelligent?

I think the comparison was to do with the idea, in England at least, that a pekingese is an old lady's lap dog who gets carried everywhere, fed on the best salmon and snaps at everyone. A pitbull is more an idea of a tough man's dog.

If he knew anything about dogs, he would have made the superior breed a German Shepherd; they are a very clever breed.

Ah, that makes sense.

[Post-Crisis D]

Since you have to come up with your own metaphor anyway, why not up the arrogance factor?  Use completely unrelated animals, like you cannot get a swan from a squirrel or a peac*ck from a locust.

[notthatamanda]

Swan from swine (alliteration)
Peac*ck from pigeon (alliteration and the same species)

[Vijaya]

Swan from swine (alliteration)
Peac*ck from pigeon (alliteration and the same species)

I like the way you think. And Amanda, I think you meant class, not species.

Alas, prejudices of all kinds are alive and well.

[RiverRun]

You can't get a schnauzer from a shepherd?

I forgot until today about a novel by Mary Stewart (Rose Cottage I think) set in an English village in the 1950s in which Lady Somebody or other has a Pekinese. I had nearly forgotten the dog, but have never forgotten the dog's water bowl, which was a rare and expensive piece of Chinese pottery from the Ming dynasty. It seemed like such a startling detail in a very nostalgic novel that I assumed it was drawn from real life, but I suppose I'll never know. 

For kicks I tried doing a Google search and couldn't find anything about quoting an actual person in a novel. The closest I could find was the rights of personality or something, which prohibits the use of likeness or voice, but the UK doesn't even really have that. Not that I know anything about legal stuff, but I thought it was interesting. Let us know if you ever find out if there's anything about it.

Alas, prejudices of all kinds are alive and well.

I agree.

[LilyBLily]

A friend of mine asked to be put into one of my novels, so I obliged. I made up her dialogue. I only hope I captured some of her spirit. It was just a cameo.

[Doglover]

I quite like peac*ck from pigeon as they are still both birds. Or perhaps a thoroughbred from a donkey. We do have a well known phrase already: you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear, which I suppose means the same.

I want to make it realistic, if that's possible. I really couldn't quite believe my ears at this pillock and even had to wind it back a few times to be sure. I used to work quite closely with the late Duke of Bedford, a real aristocrat, and I simply cannot imagine him thinking something like that let alone saying it. And he was a duke not a silly little baron.

As to the clever genes he mentioned, I can't think of a single renowned genius who comes from aristocratic lines.

[notthatamanda]

Thoroughbred from an ass.  Or is ass the one that's sterile?  Which would make it even funnier, I think.

[Doglover]

Thoroughbred from an ass.  Or is ass the one that's sterile?  Which would make it even funnier, I think.

I think ass is the American term for mule; we don't use the term in England so it is not what a baron would say. It is sterile yes. It is a cross between a horse and a donkey, so not sure about that. I might stick to peac*cks and pigeons, but I haven't decided yet. I also haven't decided whether to put this bit at the beginning, leading into the main story, or the end. I don't want it to put readers off but then it might intrigue them.

[LilyBLily]

I think you should write a strong letter to the Times.

[RiverRun]

I thought an ass was a donkey, not a mule. But maybe it's for both. I also think it was used in the King James Bible, so it must have been British at some point. Not suggesting you should use it if it doesn't fit, just interested.

I thought of a thoroughbred from a cart horse, if you like that better.

[Doglover]

I thought an ass was a donkey, not a mule. But maybe it's for both. I also think it was used in the King James Bible, so it must have been British at some point. Not suggesting you should use it if it doesn't fit, just interested.

I thought of a thoroughbred from a cart horse, if you like that better.

I think you're right; it was used in the King James Bible, but not really a word we use in England today. It would be a mule, I think, although it could be a donkey. Who knows? All that begetting they did, they probably got confused! I shall give it more thought.

It will be either a preface or an epilogue to the main historical novel, which I am still working on. But it has to be used, it simply has to.

[notthatamanda]

Thoroughbred from an ass.  Or is ass the one that's sterile?  Which would make it even funnier, I think.

I think ass is the American term for mule; we don't use the term in England so it is not what a baron would say. It is sterile yes. It is a cross between a horse and a donkey, so not sure about that. I might stick to peac*cks and pigeons, but I haven't decided yet. I also haven't decided whether to put this bit at the beginning, leading into the main story, or the end. I don't want it to put readers off but then it might intrigue them.

Oh I looked it up.  Ass = donkey.  Mule is offspring of (male) donkey and (female) horse and is sterile.  Hinny is offspring of female donkey and male horse, more rare.   And now I'm wondering how mules ever happened, given how short a donkey is and how tall a horse is.  I think I should go for a run and clear my head now.

[RiverRun]

I will be even more nerdy because I remembered that the word asinine has to do with donkey and found out from google that the latin for donkey is asinus. I don't know what the Romans used for insults but I bet they'd be amused by ours.

I know the word is used differently in the UK - honestly I'm not always up on some of the language used here in the US, so I don't pretend to know much about slang.

Weren't peac*cks a british nobility thing at one time? That seems fitting. Although it doesn't have the same comedy aspect of the original quote, does it?

[Doglover]

Thoroughbred from an ass.  Or is ass the one that's sterile?  Which would make it even funnier, I think.

I think ass is the American term for mule; we don't use the term in England so it is not what a baron would say. It is sterile yes. It is a cross between a horse and a donkey, so not sure about that. I might stick to peac*cks and pigeons, but I haven't decided yet. I also haven't decided whether to put this bit at the beginning, leading into the main story, or the end. I don't want it to put readers off but then it might intrigue them.

Oh I looked it up.  Ass = donkey.  Mule is offspring of (male) donkey and (female) horse and is sterile.  Hinny is offspring of female donkey and male horse, more rare.   And now I'm wondering how mules ever happened, given how short a donkey is and how tall a horse is.  I think I should go for a run and clear my head now.

Well, I've never heard of a hinny. I suppose the word 'horse' could also apply to a pony, which starts at about 10 hh, if you don't count Shetlands. And donkeys can be quite big, can't they?

[Doglover]

I will be even more nerdy because I remembered that the word asinine has to do with donkey and found out from google that the latin for donkey is asinus. I don't know what the Romans used for insults but I bet they'd be amused by ours.

I know the word is used differently in the UK - honestly I'm not always up on some of the language used here in the US, so I don't pretend to know much about slang.

Weren't peac*cks a british nobility thing at one time? That seems fitting. Although it doesn't have the same comedy aspect of the original quote, does it?

Yes, we do use the word asinine in England, though rarely. Peac*cks still are part of the British nobility. You won't visit the grounds of any stately home without coming across them. Personally, they terrify me, but then I'm scared of budgies!

I'm thinking I might just use that original quote though. I don't suppose Baron Knucklehead is going to speak up and say: 'hey, those are my words!' 

[notthatamanda]

Poitou donkeys are the size of your "average" horse, in height, if not bigger.  Average being not draught or pony.

And -  top of google -  23 donkey breeds - the Poitou Donkey breed was developed for the sole purpose of producing mules. It is a large donkey breed with a very long shaggy coat and no dorsal stripe

I know a couple of Poitous.

Now that is interesting.  The Poitou donkey is one of the more endangered animals in the world, less than 600 less, last time I checked.  I didn't realize it was a hybrid breed, I thought it was a heritage.

So that makes more sense. 

[Doglover]

Well, I now know more about donkeys than I ever wanted to!  Amazing what one can learn on the internet.

My dogs found a tortoise a couple of years ago and when I took it to the Tortoise Trust, the woman there told me that that breed of tortoise can climb. Who knew that tortoises had breeds? Who knew that donkeys did? I thought a donkey was a donkey, wonderful creatures.

[notthatamanda]

Word to the wise, don't ever get me started on rabbits.  Who knew there were tortoises in England?

[Doglover]

Word to the wise, don't ever get me started on rabbits.  Who knew there were tortoises in England?

We have lots of tortoises, although it is now illegal to import them. Still, they are bred here and they come in all sorts of sizes. The one the bears found was small enough to pick up, but I've seen them absolutely enormous, ones that look as though they belong in a zoo.

I had to rescue the one the dogs found and once I had to stop on a narrow road and move the tortoise who had parked itself in the middle. But, if they didn't have shells I would not have been able to do that as I don't like reptiles one little bit.

[notthatamanda]

We have turtles, when it's wet they follow the wet across the roads.  You don't usually have to pick them up though, once you get close enough to them, they move, a lot faster than you think a turtle would.  So it's more turtle herding to get them off the road.

I can't imagine tortoises would survive a winter here (New England) although I can see someone having an illegal pet tortoise and "setting it free".  The tortoises I know (owned by people licensed to do so) have to have a heat source for the winter.

[Doglover]

We have turtles, when it's wet they follow the wet across the roads.  You don't usually have to pick them up though, once you get close enough to them, they move, a lot faster than you think a turtle would.  So it's more turtle herding to get them off the road.

I can't imagine tortoises would survive a winter here (New England) although I can see someone having an illegal pet tortoise and "setting it free".  The tortoises I know (owned by people licensed to do so) have to have a heat source for the winter.

Tortoises here hibernate for the winter. Usually, owners give them a box with hay and a dark place, I think. My dad kept two when I was little, but I can't remember all the details. We only see turtles in zoos and aquariums.

[LilyBLily]

Some kinds of land tortoises are turtles, and where I grew up they were, so I’m always calling the land one a turtle. Box turtle, snapping turtle, etc. Not an ocean dweller.

[notthatamanda]

I understood it to be turtles mostly live in water, tortoises on land.  I'm not near the ocean but we have bogs and streams, rivers of various size. I was shelving animal books today and they said turtles can live anywhere where it is warm part of the year.  Northern Canada is out.  The impression the book gave me was tortoises fall under the turtle umbrella. It said tortoises live in places with sand or high grass.

Now, who wants to talk about rabbits? 

[Jeff Tanyard]

Some kinds of land tortoises are turtles, and where I grew up they were, so I’m always calling the land one a turtle. Box turtle, snapping turtle, etc. Not an ocean dweller.

Same here.  When I was a kid, we'd occasionally find a box turtle lurking behind one of the azaleas.

[LilyBLily]

Technically what we called a snapping turtle that we found under the yews in front of our house was an aquatic animal, but what it was doing far from any stream or pond we never could figure out. Apparently, it was a painted turtle.

Since then, I've seen some amazingly large turtles that live in streams or wetlands, and it turns out those are the real snapping turtles.

The box turtle of my youth was mostly a land animal even though it liked to submerge itself in sandy stream beds to cool off in summer. 

I love turtles.

[Doglover]

I understood it to be turtles mostly live in water, tortoises on land.  I'm not near the ocean but we have bogs and streams, rivers of various size. I was shelving animal books today and they said turtles can live anywhere where it is warm part of the year.  Northern Canada is out.  The impression the book gave me was tortoises fall under the turtle umbrella. It said tortoises live in places with sand or high grass.

Now, who wants to talk about rabbits? 

I'm not really interested in zoology, but as far as I know (I'm English, remember) turtles have a fin like shape to the bottoms of their feet and live in water. Tortoises on the other hand, have feet that end in toes - or what look like toes. The only turtles I've ever seen were in aquariums or Sea World. The cattery where I left my cat a couple of years ago had three enormous tortoises, big enough to sit on (not that I would, of course). Scared the living daylights out of me.

This thread started life as a question about a pompous, up his backside, English baron and it has turned into a discussion on tortoises. Is that creative writing? 

Now, we can talk about about rabbits. 

[notthatamanda]

We went to the ARBA show last year.  (American Rabbit Breeders Association) 15,000 rabbits.  Every breed, every color.  I was dying to see the Harlequins but ended up falling in love with the Thriantas.  We have two dutch rabbits, both rescues and we are not in the market for more but I really love the thriantas.  The color is gorgeous and they have the smileyest faces.

[Doglover]

We went to the ARBA show last year.  (American Rabbit Breeders Association) 15,000 rabbits.  Every breed, every color.  I was dying to see the Harlequins but ended up falling in love with the Thriantas.  We have two dutch rabbits, both rescues and we are not in the market for more but I really love the thriantas.  The color is gorgeous and they have the smileyest faces.

I love rabbits as well, but they are hard work. All that cleaning out and cleaning bottoms and half the time they're burrowing out to try to escape. Give me a huge great hairy dog any day. I went to Discover Dogs in London last month and fell in love with so many breeds. But the Newfies still have my heart.

[notthatamanda]

We had a rabbit with bottom problems and it was not fun.  But our two are easier, kids just dump the litter box once a week.  They are very low maintenance and much love.  They'll lick me all over, just like your bears, it just takes a lot longer.

[She-la-te-da]

I'd just use the intent of the statement myself. Who knows if this guy has attorneys scanning for anything said against him?

My choice would be peac*cks from pigeons, since peac*cks are considered high class, which pigeons are sometimes called rats with wings, at least here in the US. Silk purse from a sow's ear was a favorite saying of my grandmother, by the way. I heard it growing up from other people, too, as it was in the Bible.

On a somewhat side note, my ancestor was given some level of royal status for agreeing to bring William Wallace back to Scotland. So, I come from common folk who rose quite high, but over here we're just common folk again.

[Doglover]

It wouldn't be against him; it would be his own words. And, if he did try to sue me, think of all that free publicity! I could be in for a bestseller. Salman Rushdie did it by upsetting the ayatollah, not because his book was so great.

I think pitbull from pekingese was such a bad comparison it showed the clever genes he spoke of never reached him. I think Peac*cks and pigeons would certainly work better.

[Doglover]

Ok, this is what I've decided on:

Lord Ainsley was horrified! Was he supposed to take such a question seriously?

“Good Lord, no!” he said. “You have to keep the clever genes together. You can’t make a peac*ck out of a pigeon.”

Let's hope none of the royal family gets to read it! 

[Maggie Ann]

Ok, this is what I've decided on:

Lord Ainsley was horrified! Was he supposed to take such a question seriously?

“Good Lord, no!” he said. “You have to keep the clever genes together. You can’t make a peac*ck out of a pigeon.”

Let's hope none of the royal family gets to read it!