Author Topic: This post is directed to all the cover designers.  (Read 13028 times)

mike herman

This post is directed to all the cover designers.
« on: December 30, 2018, 12:00:39 PM »
After browsing the posts in this section, it is obvious that everyone understands the formulas behind what makes a successful book cover for the various genres. Well done.
What is lacking is individuality or images like what one finds here... https://cgsociety.org/galleries/featured
Just an observation.
 
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dgcasey

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Re: This post is directed to all the cover designers.
« Reply #1 on: December 30, 2018, 08:19:59 PM »
Okay, you got me to click on the link. I looked at the front page images. Great images.

And I'm not sure what it is that this site is supposed to be selling me. All those computer generated images, most of them leave me cold. I only saw a couple that I would even think of using as a book cover. And the fact that most of them seem to be fan-fic images, they would be completely unusable as book covers.

So I'm not really sure what it is you're trying to get across in this forum.
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mike herman

Re: This post is directed to all the cover designers.
« Reply #2 on: December 31, 2018, 01:45:41 AM »
The site is not selling anything. It is part of a forum for CG artists who discuss the latest software, techniques, business, etc. The artists are not book cover people per se. They generate images and models for various industries such as movies, games, architects, developers and such. While quite a few of them lean towards horror and Sci-fi and fantasy, there are others that don't. There are photoreal images that are impossible to distinguish between photo and computer generated. Some are incredibly picturesque. The beauty of working with 3d CG photoreal is that the artist can place the model into infinite poses or lighting or scenes.
It is interesting that you say, "Great images." then say they leave you cold.
But that wasn't the point of the post. When I looked through all the covers that artists posted in this section of the forum, there was a sameness. They had all arrived on an accepted formula and worked within the confines of that formula. The formula is the same across the board for all the artists. I see that as a problem. Based on your comment that the images you saw on the CG forum left you cold, you must be an adherent of that formula. Nothing wrong with that. Formulas are formulas because they work. Art, like humor, is relative to the viewer. You could even say that the CG forum suffers from formula for many of the images. But there are the ones that stand out from the others that make them special. I find them on the CG forum but have not seen that in the selection of covers in this section.
That is my point.
 
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LilyBLily

Re: This post is directed to all the cover designers.
« Reply #3 on: December 31, 2018, 02:02:14 AM »
In my painful experience, doing a “different” cover results in putting off potential readers. If you have an established name and fan base, you can dare to be different. Otherwise, no. We’re not selling art; we’re selling stories by using art to signal what our stories are.
 
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mike herman

Re: This post is directed to all the cover designers.
« Reply #4 on: December 31, 2018, 02:12:55 AM »
In my painful experience, doing a “different” cover results in putting off potential readers. If you have an established name and fan base, you can dare to be different. Otherwise, no. We’re not selling art; we’re selling stories by using art to signal what our stories are.
And yet I can browse the bookstores for popular books and find covers of successful books that do not fall into the formulas I find exhibited in the forum posts. IE. "The Girl with all the Gifts", "Endurance", "The Orchid Thief". "Mona Lisa Overdrive", "The Martian" etc, etc.
 
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angela

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Re: This post is directed to all the cover designers.
« Reply #5 on: December 31, 2018, 02:28:10 AM »
And yet I can browse the bookstores for popular books and find covers of successful books that do not fall into the formulas I find exhibited in the forum posts. IE. "The Girl with all the Gifts", "Endurance", "The Orchid Thief". "Mona Lisa Overdrive", "The Martian" etc, etc.

I would love it if indie authors could have more variety in their covers, but our covers are pretty similar for a reason. It's not the cover designers or the authors holding back the creativity. It's the realities of the marketplace and the .0003 seconds we have to make the right impression on a potential reader as they're scrolling through.

Don't say designers aren't creative! They're very creative. But a good creative person who works commercially is a problem solver, not an "artiste" making a statement. And the problem to be solved is, how do I connect with my target market?

ETA: I work with some amazing illustrators who draw my covers from sketches. It costs a lot of $$ and can slow down production. And in my genre, most of the other authors work with clip art because it's standard for the genre. It's possible that I'm spending thousands of dollars for nothing, because it's hard to know if I wouldn't have done just as well using stock that cost a few bucks. You can still make nice, attractive covers for a few bucks. But I spend a little more because it's my "treat" for writing another book, and the artwork is my way of celebrating. If I thought it decreased my sales, though, I'd switch to silhouettes in a heartbeat. Authors wanna be read. I make books, not the shell around the book.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2018, 02:31:43 AM by angelapepper »
 
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mike herman

Re: This post is directed to all the cover designers.
« Reply #6 on: December 31, 2018, 02:35:14 AM »
In my painful experience, doing a “different” cover results in putting off potential readers. If you have an established name and fan base, you can dare to be different. Otherwise, no. We’re not selling art; we’re selling stories by using art to signal what our stories are.

Exactly.  Books take a tremendous amount of time and money to produce.  If you have a cover that is to market and what readers expect (and properly conveying the tropes), then it has a much higher chance of being a success than a cover that is greatly different.  Are there successful different covers?  Sure, but they're very much in the minority.  Take a look at the top 100 charts of pretty much any genre and you'll find that at least 90% of them have a similar "feel" to them.  Usually it's more like 95%.  So, if 90-95% of the bestselling books in a genre have similar qualities, doesn't that tell you that it's because they work?

It's a very hard sell to an author who has just spent months of their effort and a sizable amount of money to tell them "this cover is different, there's a 90% chance it's cover will cost you sales, 10% chance it will improve them".

 Of course that's only if you want your book to have the best chance at being financially successful.  If your idea of success is to be artistic and creative and you don't care if it most likely will lose money, then there are plenty of cover designers who'd love to do a custom cover just for you.  Making the same sort of cover can get a little dull at times, but just like with commercial writers we artists have to create what's in demand if we want to have more than a small niche client base.
Heh. Angela Pepper, your Gardens of Wisteria book cover artwork is the type easily found on the CG forum I pointed to. And yet I don't see artwork like it anywhere in the posts by cover artists on the forum. Are you going against the grain?
 

Denise

Re: This post is directed to all the cover designers.
« Reply #7 on: December 31, 2018, 02:58:26 AM »
Hey, Mike

The page you showed is beautiful and has awesome talented artists.

I agree with what everyone wrote, but I need to remind you that you showed custom illustration, even if using 3d resources, there's a lot of painting and handwork on them.

I love illustrated covers and they work for fantasy and sci-fi, but they don't work for all genres. One issue you should note is that, in order to produce that quality of artwork, artists spend some time. That means the covers are more expensive. You could contact one of those artists and commission artwork, for example, but it will hardly be anything under $200 for the front cover art alone. It can be a lot more. Some of those artists, however, work in game companies and stuff and don't even take commissions.

In this forum you could check Jeff Brown's work. It's pretty epic, and at the same level of the artwork you posted.

There's a second issue, however, that the previous replies addressed: you need your cover to convey genre and mood in less than 3 seconds. To achieve that, you need to use tropes. That means that ideally, if you want custom illustration, you should work with an artist who knows tropes, or else you know them very well and can communicate them clearly to your artist. If you want your cover to sell, of course.

So those are the issues. You can't compare custom illustration with photomanipulated artwork for covers, even if it uses some painting and digital resources. Also, most covers posted here are premades, which cannot have that amount of work.

Anyway, from what you posted, you likely prefer custom illustration, and it's something to check when you decide to get your next cover done (if you don't have covers).


Heh. Angela Pepper, your Gardens of Wisteria book cover artwork is the type easily found on the CG forum I pointed to. And yet I don't see artwork like it anywhere in the posts by cover artists on the forum. Are you going against the grain?

That's an example of custom illustration. It costs more, but it can be worth it for authors like you, who want to have something unique. I'm crazy for custom illustration too, (and I think they can be addictive, cause you get a unique piece of artwork), but I've wondered if it has cost me sales. I'm not sure.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2018, 03:02:16 AM by Denise »
 

mike herman

Re: This post is directed to all the cover designers.
« Reply #8 on: December 31, 2018, 03:14:03 AM »
Hey, Mike

The page you showed is beautiful and has awesome talented artists.

I agree with what everyone wrote, but I need to remind you that you showed custom illustration, even if using 3d resources, there's a lot of painting and handwork on them.

I love illustrated covers and they work for fantasy and sci-fi, but they don't work for all genres. One issue you should note is that, in order to produce that quality of artwork, artists spend some time. That means the covers are more expensive. You could contact one of those artists and commission artwork, for example, but it will hardly be anything under $200 for the front cover art alone. It can be a lot more. Some of those artists, however, work in game companies and stuff and don't even take commissions.

In this forum you could check Jeff Brown's work. It's pretty epic, and at the same level of the artwork you posted.

There's a second issue, however, that the previous replies addressed: you need your cover to convey genre and mood in less than 3 seconds. To achieve that, you need to use tropes. That means that ideally, if you want custom illustration, you should work with an artist who knows tropes, or else you know them very well and can communicate them clearly to your artist. If you want your cover to sell, of course.

So those are the issues. You can't compare custom illustration with photomanipulated artwork for covers, even if it uses some painting and digital resources. Also, most covers posted here are premades, which cannot have that amount of work.

Anyway, from what you posted, you likely prefer custom illustration, and it's something to check when you decide to get your next cover done (if you don't have covers).
First let me say that if any of my comments implied or said that I thought the artists who posted on the forum are less than talented, that is not what I believe. They all have superior talents and exhibit exactly what many authors here are looking for and at incredibly low cost, Unbelievably low cost! No one can fault them  for that. They are obviously proficient at what they do.
Most likely they all can produce beautiful custom work, but they, for the most part, aren't showing it here.
I'll check out Jeff Brown, as you suggest.
Having been in the CG industry for years, and catering to the AEC industry doing Photoreal simulations of their projects, I do my own covers (for better or worse). Yet I am always looking to improve and searching for images that go above and beyond the norm. In a year or two, I'll probably change all my book covers just because.
 
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Denise

Re: This post is directed to all the cover designers.
« Reply #9 on: December 31, 2018, 03:27:32 AM »

First let me say that if any of my comments implied or said that I thought the artists who posted on the forum are less than talented, that is not what I believe. They all have superior talents and exhibit exactly what many authors here are looking for and at incredibly low cost, Unbelievably low cost! No one can fault them  for that. They are obviously proficient at what they do.
Most likely they all can produce beautiful custom work, but they, for the most part, aren't showing it here.
I'll check out Jeff Brown, as you suggest.
Having been in the CG industry for years, and catering to the AEC industry doing Photoreal simulations of their projects, I do my own covers (for better or worse). Yet I am always looking to improve and searching for images that go above and beyond the norm. In a year or two, I'll probably change all my book covers just because.

Oh, I didn't think you meant the artists here aren't talented. I just wanted to point out that you're wondering why most of them don't do custom art, and the issue is that custom art is a different animal. It tends to costs more (depending on style) and requires a different skillset.

I'd say that most artists here cannot actually produce that type of custom illustration, because they're not illustrators. Jeff Brown is an exception, and there may be more.

And I don't disagree with you in principle because I also like custom illustration.


angela

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Re: This post is directed to all the cover designers.
« Reply #10 on: December 31, 2018, 04:14:52 AM »
Heh. Angela Pepper, your Gardens of Wisteria book cover artwork is the type easily found on the CG forum I pointed to. And yet I don't see artwork like it anywhere in the posts by cover artists on the forum. Are you going against the grain?

Am I going against the grain? Yes and no. It's common for fantasy books to have custom illustrations, and my book is fantasy. But the standard for the subgenre is a silhouette of a witch, in a hat, against a bright colored background. But it's not so wildly different that readers can't recognize it for the genre they enjoy.

Unfortunately, i can't get a Bookbub for the life of me on book 1, not in any category, despite good reviews and having book 1 be wide, so who knows. I'd swap the cover out for one with a cat if it would get me a bookbub... if only I had a cat in the book. There's a cat, but she's not until later in the series. If I had to do it all over again, I'd put a cat in book 1 so I could have it on the cover and maybe appeal to the BB gatekeepers.

You have to laugh!! Really!! You have to laugh or you'll spend too long feeling miserable.

Custom illustrations are a wonderful idea. But is your typical indie author going to want them knowing that the profit margin on their first 150 to 200 full-price sales (assuming no paid ads) are going toward the illustration cost and not to their own pocket as compensation for the wonderful words they wrote? It's a choice.
 

PJ Post

Re: This post is directed to all the cover designers.
« Reply #11 on: December 31, 2018, 08:26:37 AM »
In no particular order:

1. Art like this is typically too expensive.

2. Many Indies have decided to join the commodity market where most of the books are fungible, so originality is antithetical to the strategy.

3. There's a herd mentality running through the Arts these days, everything from Indie writers, to music labels to Hollywood. Lots of "new and improved" repackaging going on.

What everyone seems to be missing is that people love new and shiny, it just takes more work...and more risk. Unfortunately, the Arts are very risk-averse these days, which is why the commodity book market is so large, and why Hollywood is rebooting, remaking and sequeling us to death.

I think these are pretty original covers, and still genre specific.

     

Also...

I love good cgi and digital art, everything from comics to the ultra-realistic. Thanks for posting this.

___


I realized alter that my post might ahve comes across as negative towards other types of writers.  There's nothing at all wrong with writing and not caring if you're financially successful with it.  IMO there are three kinds of writers: *snip*

I hear this a lot, it's become a self-publishing meme - and besides being more than a little condescending (sorry, but it is), it's also completely false.

What sells is what people buy.

The overwhelming majority of all writers fail, regardless of how or what they write - and this applies to those writing to market in an attempt to be commercial. The only thing backing up this myth is selective anecdata.

This is what a typical demand curve looks like.



The above graph indicates where the majority of the revenue for any idea or trend is generated - from original content. By the time a market reaches commodity status, about where this graph trails off over to the right, we get this...the long tail:



There's still plenty of revenue here, but the niche is saturated, which means extremely competitive, which means prices are necessarily suppressed. The math shows us that there's way more financial potential with new ideas, be it content or covers, than following the herd. Writing to market or to audience expectation is chasing this long tail, in exchange for differentiation, which is what separates one brand from the next. It's also what generates fans - brand loyal customers.
 
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mike herman

Re: This post is directed to all the cover designers.
« Reply #12 on: January 01, 2019, 12:37:45 AM »
P.J., those sample covers you posted are beautiful covers. And, I have  admired your covers  starting from the first one you did to the added later ones. Not to mention that the writing is memorable. I collect noteworthy book  openings and yours is in among the authors that I have in my list. The writing, in the end, is what it is all about. One of the plainest covers I have seen graced a book that, last time I looked, had sold over 5 million.
 
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sandree

Re: This post is directed to all the cover designers.
« Reply #13 on: January 03, 2019, 04:00:33 AM »
So what do you do if you want something a little different because your story is a little different? I would love an illustrated cover, but where can I find that at a reasonable price? Can one find that?

Right now, I m working on my own cover and I think I can do something passable but it will not be what I really want and won’t be an illustration.

What is the general consensus on 99 designs? I have almost started a contest for an illustrated cover on there a few times but I’m unsure of whether I’ll find what I’m looking for...

mike herman

Re: This post is directed to all the cover designers.
« Reply #14 on: January 03, 2019, 04:14:18 AM »
So what do you do if you want something a little different because your story is a little different? I would love an illustrated cover, but where can I find that at a reasonable price? Can one find that?

Right now, I m working on my own cover and I think I can do something passable but it will not be what I really want and won’t be an illustration.

What is the general consensus on 99 designs? I have almost started a contest for an illustrated cover on there a few times but I’m unsure of whether I’ll find what I’m looking for...
Sandree, if you go to the link I referenced at the top of the post, you can always contact one of the artists of something you see that you like and request permission to use the image or maybe they will give you a modified version of it for your cover.
 
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Denise

Re: This post is directed to all the cover designers.
« Reply #15 on: January 03, 2019, 05:15:48 AM »
So what do you do if you want something a little different because your story is a little different? I would love an illustrated cover, but where can I find that at a reasonable price? Can one find that?

Right now, I m working on my own cover and I think I can do something passable but it will not be what I really want and won’t be an illustration.

What is the general consensus on 99 designs? I have almost started a contest for an illustrated cover on there a few times but I’m unsure of whether I’ll find what I’m looking for...

99 Designs is a site for designers, not illustrators. You'll probably pay more than if you contacted an illustrator directly. Another problem is that a designer from that site was recently caught stealing images. I think this would be harder to do on Deviant Art or Art Station, because those are artists' websites.

I suggest you take a look at Deviant Art. You can even post in the forum and ask for illustrators. You can also look at the forum and check illustrators who reply to cover requests.  https://forum.deviantart.com/jobs/offers/

I used to recommend checking who's posting on Fiverr for illustration, but recently I've found lots of fake portfolios for illustration as well. That said, illustrators who want to find work will post there. You should reverse search the portfolio, though, and sometimes their username is the same as in a DeviantArt or Artstation profile. Good illustrators have public profiles of their work.

Remember that illustrators are not designers, though, so you need to make sure they'll leave space for the text and will do something that's catchy at a thumbnail size. After that, if you're good with typography, you can do it yourself, or else get a designer to do it for you. Depending on the style you're looking for, it won't necessarily cost a fortune.
 
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PJ Post

Re: This post is directed to all the cover designers.
« Reply #16 on: January 03, 2019, 07:46:21 AM »
Remember that illustrators are not designers, though, so you need to make sure they'll leave space for the text and will do something that's catchy at a thumbnail size. After that, if you're good with typography, you can do it yourself, or else get a designer to do it for you.

This.

___

A nifty benefit of working with a cgi artist is consistency. Once they've modeled your characters, it's much easier for them to reproduce cool renders for other covers, and with 3-d printing, depending on a few things, you can even turn them into merch action figure stuff.
 
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GFXJames

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Re: This post is directed to all the cover designers.
« Reply #17 on: January 03, 2019, 11:53:20 AM »
Hello, everyone.  :)  An illustrator here (of the type LOVING doing fully custom work). Thought I'd chime in, put my 2c, and as well, will try to learn from your wisdom in the field, and maybe with your advice, would get myself on the right track. Oh, I knew about this site (I had no idea) from an extremely kind writer that recommended it to me, in another writers' community.

So what do you do if you want something a little different because your story is a little different? I would love an illustrated cover, but where can I find that at a reasonable price? Can one find that?

Right now, I m working on my own cover and I think I can do something passable but it will not be what I really want and won’t be an illustration.

What is the general consensus on 99 designs? I have almost started a contest for an illustrated cover on there a few times but I’m unsure of whether I’ll find what I’m looking for...


LOL! Hello ! That's what I want to do ! Custom illustration for self publishing writers. And one couldn't get more affordable... (more on that later)
I dislike with a passion all those sites (fiverr, 99 designs.. ) I mean, they are good, but in the end, they are not great for designers, neither for clients, as in many cases you get what you paid for...Often clients try to get master pieces for beer's money. It dehumanizes a bit the whole thing. It often ends up with really good professionals abandoning the place. And also, these places often get a great chunk of the money...

Quote
I'd say that most artists here cannot actually produce that type of custom illustration, because they're not illustrators. Jeff Brown is an exception, and there may be more.

We are legion !
I'm joking... (I like irony, sorry  :D  )
I mean, there are, but usually less into self publishing, etc. I come from board games, before I worked for decades as a graphic designer for web and print, but in the middle, jumping from company to company, mixing fields : If there were offers, I'd work at a game company (4 in total), and so, had to fully learn many entire profiles. Is not common. Indeed :

Quote
Remember that illustrators are not designers, though, so you need to make sure they'll leave space for the text and will do something that's catchy at a thumbnail size. After that, if you're good with typography, you can do it yourself, or else get a designer to do it for you. Depending on the style you're looking for, it won't necessarily cost a fortune.

I agree that is the most common thing to find (highly specialized people). Some of us do many profiles, though. I don't have impostor syndrome since decades, as was that or starving (well, that's a bit exaggerated, or...not completely).

About producing what is expected, vs what is what directly comes from the artist heart and inspiration, besides that inside companies is a no-no, meaning, you always have your little soul for whenever the boss allows some freedom, BUT you are used to hundreds of constraints, niche markets, etc. I have also worked tightly with marketing people , and it was key to make that thing : A/B testing. I was employed as web coder and g. designer, and was told to make many versions, check which one received more "download" button clicks, purchases, which ones produced a page leave, etc. Sadly, it seems is harder to do here, all I can think of is trying one type of cover for one book, a different take with another...But that seems to me quite a high risk for an author, for such a long term work that surely is writing a book, financial effort (ads, etc), and does not seem that you can be swapping the cover during the process.. (that would ABSOLUTELY rock, lol )

So, I have mixed feelings in this respect. I have a hard time getting people willing to do the risky jump of trusting an illustrator that shows not even premade covers (but, as very well explained here, an illustration fully painted is a ton of work... again, the risk factor, lol) , even if the price is very low. People need to "see" things (covers, in this case), it's harder to imagine just seeing the skills in illustration (or that's what seems to me it's happening...).

That's probably why a CG Society (or the old CG Talk, etc) page, does leave authors or people looking for the practical, specific application of these skills to their product, a bit cold or even indifferent. Plus... that artwork is often made as your very best master piece, often taking weeks, and most of the time to get noticed by high end companies to get a 70k job (besides pure ego, hehe). That very site is browsed every day by HRs and pros from those companies in the film and game industry. If the artists (the good ones, as it's a mixed bag as at any place) doing those master pieces were to sell anything of that, forget even the 500$ price tag, hehe. :D

As I yet don't know if I'll have any market here (not here but in the entire writing community) was thinking to just follow my passion, and make some premades to my best criteria and preference. And then do one or two fully following the criteria of specific genres. I totally understand the laws of market, and when in a gig, be it a board game, video game, logo, etc, I follow specs, client requests, to great detail, is the main definition of custom work. Still, I'm attracted to covers because is so similar to the old passion of making your own oil picture, that I might allow to get wild with my own premades, and see how those work among people, too... Now, I believe business success is pretty hard to predict : You have the "adapt to the genre" POV, and get people what they want, and that's completely factual. Then you also have the reality that is close to impossible to really break in and be selected over a mass if you do what everyone else is doing, harder to get noticed. Art tends to aim for the opposite. I don't know even a single bit about this business, to just trust my own instinct, here. The author (client) should be the one setting the specs, imo...

I have this experience of certain KS campaign, for a board game, we went for a certain style, a bit of our own idea... instead of staying in what the hardcore fans do always expect to get... We did not reach the 38k US $ of the KS goal. We got near, and for the 28 days a campaign lasts, that's not so terrible. Then, second campaign, we studied what went wrong... a lot of things in game mechanics, but also, several pointed out that the illustrations were good, but not the usual style on the genre. Went for that, and bang, +100k. So, I learnt there a pair of things the hard way : First, don't get anything for granted even if you have worked at ten companies, and have long experience as a freelancer.... second : stick to what people want, at least for very hardcore niche consumers, those who like A LOT a very specific type of thing. Now, if your target likes to be surprised, then we're totally free to go the creative way, but if not... could be a shot in the foot...

So, what I mean is that... both could be valid (and I'd like the original take, too...), if I were an author I'd probably test both ! But I know little to nothing about this business.  Nothing is going to stop me from making the premades I'd LOVE to do, though, hehe.

I'm so willing, because it's "calling me"powerfully, something I want to do, there's clearly a passion component here, I can sense it. (the pricing I'm setting might be a consequence...)

I don't know if 150 $ is yet too high for the average quantity that authors would feel really fine with (or can afford!) considering 100$ if getting enough number of petitions... I mean.. I DO know people set this at 500$ (even more as I include all the g. design in those 150, so, the difference is even bigger) . And I probably will escalate to half of that at some point, but after a bunch of published covers... and maybe not even then....

But this is a personal take of mine, and is not only in here because I "just landed". I do this in other fields. I get often a bit of heat from profession(/s) colleagues due to this (not that it could ever affect me...). The reasons behind all that are extremely simple : Despite having worked a ton as a SEO, marketing-graphic-coding guy (or maybe because I hate that, lol), I don't do any promo, AT ALL, is all word of mouth. I don't show my free portfolio hosting site because I have not even coded/designed the site myself, and does not make a good work in showing my possibilities.

And mostly, as I prefer a lot more to ALWAYS have work, even if slightly underpaid, but never stay waiting to finally get someone able to pay the right price, low as it can get, I prefer it. Also, I do believe very strongly in the entire indie environment vs mainstream. Learnt that quality/good work is not always in the latter, this becoming more and more of a fact. I've been part of many : First shareware games world, most people don't know/remember it, then indie video games, then board/card games, the indie and small business people there (still in that). You want to set prices these people can pay, and mostly, are fine/ok to pay. You want to allow them to make projects, and evolve the entire ecosystem, it goes in the benefit of everyone.

Sorry about polluting with my own questions about the business : I'm experienced as an illustrator, but quite lost in this business, otherwise I wouldn't ask so many details.... Also please excuse my English (in a writers' community, ouch) , it is not my first language.

I like these forums, and I got used to the SMF system, from the other one, so....cool.  :D   :tup3b

Denise

Re: This post is directed to all the cover designers.
« Reply #18 on: January 03, 2019, 01:11:07 PM »

I don't know if 150 $ is yet too high for the average quantity that authors would feel really fine with (or can afford!) considering 100$ if getting enough number of petitions... I mean.. I DO know people set this at 500$ (even more as I include all the g. design in those 150, so, the difference is even bigger) . And I probably will escalate to half of that at some point, but after a bunch of published covers... and maybe not even then....


$100/$150 is excellent for an illustrated cover, but it depends on the style. It's possible to get some styles of artwork for that price, if you know where to look. If you do good typography, though, then it's excellent.

Do you have a public portfolio on ArtStation or somewhere else? I really like illustrated covers and people often ask about illustrators, but it's always a good idea to get a feel for the artist's style. I know you posted some samples on your thread, but I'd like to check more. And if you also design, it would be nice to show some covers.

Good luck!

I have illustrated covers and I considered replacing them, but now I came to the conclusion I love custom illustration too much, and I'll go down with them.
 
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GFXJames

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Re: This post is directed to all the cover designers.
« Reply #19 on: January 03, 2019, 01:46:44 PM »

I don't know if 150 $ is yet too high for the average quantity that authors would feel really fine with (or can afford!) considering 100$ if getting enough number of petitions... I mean.. I DO know people set this at 500$ (even more as I include all the g. design in those 150, so, the difference is even bigger) . And I probably will escalate to half of that at some point, but after a bunch of published covers... and maybe not even then....


$100/$150 is excellent for an illustrated cover, but it depends on the style. It's possible to get some styles of artwork for that price, if you know where to look. If you do good typography, though, then it's excellent.

Do you have a public portfolio on ArtStation or somewhere else? I really like illustrated covers and people often ask about illustrators, but it's always a good idea to get a feel for the artist's style. I know you posted some samples on your thread, but I'd like to check more. And if you also design, it would be nice to show some covers.

Good luck!

I have illustrated covers and I considered replacing them, but now I came to the conclusion I love custom illustration too much, and I'll go down with them.

Thank you very much for that information: is very useful.

Yes, it includes the design, the title and etc.

My style tends to be realistic, but in there, I move between several waters... Also, I can do painterly realism, or more digital realism, or comic/stylized line-art, toon, children's illustration... Is hard to find a style that defines me, as have worked for so different types of projects (some of the work I am making now for a board game defines me more, but I can publish that just yet). I'm mostly a chameleon in terms of style, I'm used to adapt to the situation, often happened when contracted in the middle of a game project: the work had to be seamless with the artist that got fired, left or had some  leave of absence, etc. In toon/humor I have more of what one would call an style.

About if I am good in typography (and not understanding for that designing a full font library ( like creating Helvetica font ;) ), I don't do that), well, I can say I have been working as a graphic designer at several companies, last one during almost a decade, plus all my freelance work. But that does not make anyone automatically good, so I guess I will only demonstrate with first client work here... Is a bit of a vicious circle ;)

About having a site, thank you for your interest, but the fact is  that, well, I have one, but prefer not to show the design I currently have. Specially as covers involve quite a bit of design knowledge, I can be the first one to know and asume that site is currently terrible. Not really my fault, as is one of those free portfolio hosting sites, where you are given a template, and then you customize it the best you can. I made certain modification to make it more practical to update for me, but that made it even uglier. It is a pending task that I keep postponing because I have always some gig in hand, and because a 50% of my day job was web coding, and learnt to hate it. But definitely need to do a full HTML5 site from scratch, upload to my hosting ( I pay a full hosting and domain which is beautifully empty, that's the sad part...) , and all that. And yep, you are spot-on in that detail, as well. :)
« Last Edit: January 03, 2019, 01:49:47 PM by GFXJames »
 

mike herman

Re: This post is directed to all the cover designers.
« Reply #20 on: January 04, 2019, 01:46:45 AM »
On the subject of artwork for covers, there is this from the short story magazine, The Dark,  http://thedarkmagazine.com/artwork/
 
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mike herman

Re: This post is directed to all the cover designers.
« Reply #21 on: January 04, 2019, 02:27:30 AM »
This from a book reviewer on the importance of book cover.
"Firstly, I have to mention the awe-inspiring cover art. There is no way that any reader will be able to walk past that cover in a bookstore without pausing to pick it up to read the back. And, as most of us know, if you can get people to hold a book in their hands, they are much more likely to purchase it." Amies Book review blog. https://amiesbookreviews.wordpress.com/
She is reviewing "The remarkable Inventions of Walter Mortinson" https://www.amazon.com/Remarkable-Inventions-Walter-Mortinson/dp/1534420800/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1546532581&sr=1-1&keywords=the+remarkable+inventions+of+walter+mortinson
 
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GFXJames

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Re: This post is directed to all the cover designers.
« Reply #22 on: January 04, 2019, 05:45:25 AM »
Those are lovely.   :cool:

Kathy Dee

Re: This post is directed to all the cover designers.
« Reply #23 on: January 04, 2019, 08:51:36 PM »
Unfortunately, i can't get a Bookbub for the life of me on book 1, not in any category, despite good reviews and having book 1 be wide, so who knows. I'd swap the cover out for one with a cat if it would get me a bookbub... if only I had a cat in the book


Then write it in!

You could write about the death of the witch's (former) cat right at the beginning, and her yearning to have another about half way through. Then, near the end, you could have her visit a cattery to select her new cat.

A few paragraphs and you're done.

"The saddest thing in life is people with sight but without vision." - Helen Keller
 

Melody Simmons

Re: This post is directed to all the cover designers.
« Reply #24 on: January 04, 2019, 11:33:31 PM »
I think of book covers as product packaging, not as "art".  I must have done some things right because I've designed covers for quite a number of bestsellers.

As for CG art - it is mostly used in fantasy genres, and takes a LOT of overpainting to make it look good and not like stiff plastic dummies.  Useful for fantasy-genres though...

Agree with some comments here that Indie authors are better off following trends than trying to break away and set a new style.  I have seen a few who tried that and failed hopelessly.  Trad books - and I mean the top bestsellers - have some power to change.  Like how the Harry Potter books changed looks and many tried to follow the same style in that genre.
 

GFXJames

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Re: This post is directed to all the cover designers.
« Reply #25 on: January 05, 2019, 01:47:48 AM »
I think of book covers as product packaging, not as "art".  I must have done some things right because I've designed covers for quite a number of bestsellers.

As for CG art - it is mostly used in fantasy genres, and takes a LOT of overpainting to make it look good and not like stiff plastic dummies.  Useful for fantasy-genres though...

Agree with some comments here that Indie authors are better off following trends than trying to break away and set a new style.  I have seen a few who tried that and failed hopelessly.  Trad books - and I mean the top bestsellers - have some power to change.  Like how the Harry Potter books changed looks and many tried to follow the same style in that genre.

I would completely agree in the case of CGI as 3D renders and 3D scenes where people try (or not even) to over paint. If the over paint is not done by an actual painter, chances are it's going to fail at some point. It is specially noticeable when they try to detail volumes/details they can't really draw (ie, a hand, etc). You only see it looking great when it is fully done in 3D, but with the level of expertise people have in the film industry. And is very rare to find that in the average person doing some renders for a product that will convert into 100 or 200$ of benefit. Among other things: I can charge 500$ for a human 3D model in custom gig, not even textured. Imagine an entire scene with some furniture/buildings/ships/vehicle and two human characters. Would be absurd, so people go to cheap catalog meshes, and the worse, often they lit badly the scene, and don't do a good render.

Now, fully painting (ful illustration, digital painting, oil painting (is actually the same thing, different "brushes")) has the same number of issues, although different ones. If not fully mastering good anatomy, perspective, etc (because the problem with color and lighting, is IMO equal with whatever the composition, also when just doing some photo composition...or 3D) the actual scene or character can look pretty weird. Even disgusting. And you can find quite some people good in landscapes, (also because one tree 5 millimeter to the left does not really matter... one eye/browse displaced 5 millimeter can make a different person, and portraits, human figure, is the most difficult in painting, specially from memory)  but able to produce from zero (not from 3D, neither photos to base on) a human figure, face, hands, feet, without errors... that's hard to find... yet though, there are very good illustrators. And IMO, when you have a good illustration for a cover of any type of product, you have a lot there. Also, there is a portion of the general public who also spot many errors in photo compositions, is not only us, artists, who notice that from afar.

But if you actually mean that 3D (CGI) over-painted is often not well done... YES... I fully agree. And I am a 3D artist, but, besides is ton of work more (much more time) for me to produce a fully realistic 3D scene, character model, lighting, materials and render, compared to get the same effect just painting from zero, from scratch, is that as it means a lot more hours, I'd have to charge a lot more. And this happens to anyone, is not that I am super slow in 3D ( I'd be to think I'm fast, had to be at game companies) or something. So, what you see A LOT of times, is Poser (pre-made models from the best company at that) models, that allow certain level of realism, but what they do is pose the woman or man ( often in not too natural poses), and then set some lighting, very flat, with no volume, I mean, not even covering the basics of 3D, which like in photography and painting, depends a lot on great lighting to create a master piece or make a disaster. Composition and lighting is shared across the 3 categories/fields. And the worst is when a client forces you to make a bad composition, but there's little that can be done, there.

The reality is : There are more people that can do a montage with photography and any photo retouch software (Photoshop, Affinity Photo  or even Gimp), and that's pretty fast. I know as I have done it as a job. But only a few can do real great work out of it, IMO. Tends to be people with good knowledge of composition and lighting, besides knowing many tricks in photo retouch.  Then you have full painting from scratch (what I do when I make a cover in other fields/type of products, not books...) which , together with my other projects, can stretch to five days (2 or 3 if I ONLY do that) , and , something I have also done (so, I have experience with the 3, kind of give me some perspective) is doing it all in 3D. And... If, like me, are not fond of using premade, stock 3D objects for the case of humans or creatures, then is a ton of work. I mean, I see it just fine to have "catalog" 3D objects for furniture, vehicles, etc... that can cut times ( or like I had at some companies, objects I had made myself which I'd reuse with slight modifications)... But characters is a very particular thing, you need to put personality in each one you generate, and also, Poser models have certain peculiar licensing... If anything, only would use characters that I,  technically (some catalog meshes are crazy to edit) and by licenses, could heavily modify. And even using all the shortcuts posible, if you are willing to do something that ends up looking as well as a good photo retouch, or a good illustration, you need a lot more work on it than with the other two, otherwise it will look cringy, plastic-ish and unnatural as heck.

But a painting.... er...nope.That's pure glory... Vermeer, Turner, Delacroix or Velazquez would make great book covers, I'd be sure of that, :)  and indeed, in trad publishing since always illustration have been intensively used... ( also photography / design).
 
Now, I can say as well, I have seen don wonders with 3D for illustration for magazines, and for game board box covers, because when is used well, is just "another brush". But I am not finding a lot at that level, lately....  :icon_cry:  The amount of work/hours/skill to get the same effect than with photo or illustration wont make it worth for anyone.  Indeed, is usually some of the top ones at that place, CG Society, who could, but what for? No one would pay them 1000k -2000k for a book cover, hehe.


« Last Edit: January 05, 2019, 01:59:43 AM by GFXJames »
 

GFXJames

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Re: This post is directed to all the cover designers.
« Reply #26 on: January 05, 2019, 01:49:03 AM »
BTW, @Melody Simmons,  been at your site, I like your covers. :)   :tup3b
(have particular curiosity on how have you made the one of your avatar, have seen it larger at your site... :)  )

Rosie Scott

Re: This post is directed to all the cover designers.
« Reply #27 on: January 06, 2019, 08:45:37 AM »
Mike Herman--I wish there was some way to follow you on here so I can continue to see all this beautiful art you find. I'm loving all of it. If books had art like these on their covers, I might read more often than I do. I tend to gravitate toward more niche arty covers as it is.

Using CG as an art form for book covers is a beautiful idea I hadn't really considered. In the first link you provide, the vast majority of images tickle my sense of intrigue, even if they're simple character images. The Dark magazine cover reminds me of a graphic novel. There have been plenty of graphic novels I've bought based on the cover art alone (Colder: Volume 1 by Paul Tobin is one example; I pull out my copy just to marvel at its gory beauty every now and then), and I've gone on to enjoy the stories as well.

Thank you for posting these links. I have a new type of art to waste my time searching the internet for.  Grin

Fantasy/sci-fi. Writer of bloody warfare & witty banter. Provoker of questions.
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GFXJames

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Re: This post is directed to all the cover designers.
« Reply #28 on: January 06, 2019, 11:09:37 AM »
That site is CG Society (before called CG Talk, If I remember well...and I remember the sites previous to those...But those never got that big) : One of the the most remarkable places on internet for film and video game professionals to show their work, mostly to be seen by big companies,  and headhunters, and also to go building a portfolio there. It is almost a must, once reaching certain level. I used their forums while working in medium/small game companies.... in very delicate moments, like when getting into a non documented crash in 3DS Max, in Character Studio Biped,  or whatever other thing, and you happen to find some other in the profession who knows some dark trick, (not found in any book or documentation)  to overcome that.  There talk and contribute part of the most trained and talented people in 3D out there. Mixed with very young students just starting (you might find large differences from some images to others. He linked the "featured" gallery.  :)

I can do 3D (or CG, as you people call it  ;)  ) , but I still give a lot more value to hand painted works...In every possible sense, indeed.

One problem (for covers) that I see with 3D is that take tons of hours to get a professionally rendered scene (more than an illustration, by far), with all modeled,materials created, etc, always that one wishes to create something life-like, which does no shout generated or plastic-ish  in every inch of it.  Is in that were most time is gone, so much that pricing would have to be many times more expensive than illustration (which already is more expensive than design/photography). For exmaple, a single human model for 500$ is already blatantly cheap... and that before making the uv-mapping and setting the shaders/materials... Let alone a complete scene, and then its lighting and rendering.

But I agree that some people make wonderful scenes with it.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2019, 11:15:32 AM by GFXJames »
 

PJ Post

Re: This post is directed to all the cover designers.
« Reply #29 on: January 07, 2019, 04:32:30 AM »
I think it's important to remember that CG is just another tool. When I switched from brushes and paint to a wacom tablet and photoshop, my style didn't change at all. Art isn't in the hands - it's in the eye. Well done CG stuff can look like any style the artist wants, from comic to ultra-realistic, and any medium, sketchy watercolors to Dutch Master oils. Of the examples below, which is which? More importantly, does it matter?









At the end of the day, Melody is right, it's packaging. Something to grab the attention of the browsing reader, with a promise of genre. But again, with everything looking the same, we lose brand identity, which promotes a fungible commodity market.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2019, 04:35:28 AM by PJ Post »
 
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GFXJames

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Re: This post is directed to all the cover designers.
« Reply #30 on: January 07, 2019, 05:50:03 AM »
Quote
Well done CG stuff can look like any style the artist wants, from comic to ultra-realistic, and any medium, sketchy watercolors to Dutch Master oils. Of the examples below, which is which? More importantly, does it matter?

Nope, it does not , I think it is perfectly right, technically speaking.  I also used somewhere (not sure if in this thread) the "a different brush" expression, as I agree with that.

But, speaking about the process, and mostly the results that each process often might give, time and some other things related too all of it, I find two issues...(and is not a small pair of things) : First, it takes a lot more time (for the usual expert, in both areas) to model, build and render a very detailed (realistic or not)  scene (modeling, surface, materials, lighting, particles, etc), hence, besides people able to reach that level where it does not shout "generated" are only a few and charge according to their rarity, is a fact that take more hours than a painting, and so, is a must to charge more for it, unless one is doing art only for pleasure (which some are). Meaning, by necessity it has to be more expensive, and to my knowledge (which is yet little, I'm more experienced in other fields than covers for self publishing authors), is not a user niche prepared to pay what would compensate those many hours (I have this issue to produce miniatures : I have all the knowledge and experience for that, yet I would never be able to set a margin good enough, people want to pay the same for a 3D printed custom miniature than for an industry produced one, which is less than beers money. If I wouldn't have to worry about this, I'd be doing miniatures for board games right now, instead of other gigs...). Second, but related to it, very few master the whole thing (good anatomy modeling, often related with good drawing expertise, good skill for materials, lighting, composition, rendering, etc, etc) , the ratio is way smaller than the vast number of people capable of doing a good looking photo edit based design, and maybe not so big with those able to do correct, flaws-free drawing and painting, that also can transmit a particular sensation/vibe. But still, the difference (number of people able to flawlessly produce that, leaving the pricing issue apart) is still quite big compared to illustration, too.

IMO, is a matter of numbers. I'd say, if we speak about someone capable of creating at the kind of rare mentioned level of quality, who can produce without charging the authors (clients, here) what should, due to actually using so many hours for produce it, then I'd say, yeah, why not ?. If someone can do that...  But IMO we would be speaking about only two uncommon cases: Book covers produced for a minority of those ready to pay (certain hefty price tag) for that, or artists ready to charge even a considered high price tag for an author, yet being very low for all the artist's hours put on producing the piece.

I am not against it. I am a 3D artist, and would love if there would be some real market niche for that (with frequent clients wanting it/being able to pay for it). So, is not a negative critic, is just the problems I see for that. If I'm proved wrong about these facts, I'll fully change my opinion, of course...

That said, painting over 3D renders or 3D scenes of some sort (I mention it as there's a bunch of people doing that, matte painters, concept artists... using heavily photobashing, to me falls directly into the graphic design/photo retouch category, and yep, that is FAST, and yep, is doable in a short time), that is not what I am speaking about here. I'm comparing (just trying to explain my specific point from other posts, not setting an universal truth here, lol :D )  full painting versus full 3D generated works.  The paint over reference, be it 3D or photos, falls in an intermediate terrain between illustration and photo montage/graphic design, or can be called mostly just that, depending on each case. And it can be faster  than "full 3D", and in a smaller degree ( even if the illustrator is both good and fast, and while such illustrator IMO have it easier than when the art is fully 3D generated,  to find a good ratio of money/hours for the usual book cover payment) , than illustration.

Edit: So, not disagreeing with anything/anyone, just pointing out some details, which can be of consideration to some, and very irrelevant to most. :D
« Last Edit: January 07, 2019, 01:07:39 PM by GFXJames »
 

guest153

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Re: This post is directed to all the cover designers.
« Reply #31 on: January 07, 2019, 11:12:43 AM »
In my painful experience, doing a “different” cover results in putting off potential readers. If you have an established name and fan base, you can dare to be different. Otherwise, no. We’re not selling art; we’re selling stories by using art to signal what our stories are.
And yet I can browse the bookstores for popular books and find covers of successful books that do not fall into the formulas I find exhibited in the forum posts. IE. "The Girl with all the Gifts", "Endurance", "The Orchid Thief". "Mona Lisa Overdrive", "The Martian" etc, etc.

The Girl With All The Gifts is traditionally published by an author who had built up his name recognition over a long career before he released that book. The author is Mike Carey, who wrote the Lucifer comic series, the critically acclaimed spin-off of Neil Gaiman's Sandman (and which a successful TV series was loosely based on). He also had very successful runs on both the X-Men and Fantastic Four comics, so y'know, not exactly an unknown name. The strength of his name alone will get people to buy that book.

The Orchid Thief is neither genre fiction nor fiction at all, so that's like comparing apples to oranges. It's easy to just say, "oh they're all books, so they're all the same market," but that's overly simplistic. Plus, it served as a loose basis for the film Adaptation, in which Orlean was played by Meryl Streep. So again, not really an unknown name we're talking about.

Mona Lisa Overdrive is a genre book, true, but it's got several differences going for it. First, it's traditionally published. Second, it was released over twenty years ago when the market was extremely different. Third, it was written by the father of cyberpunk.

I can't comment on Endurance, because I've never heard of that book and a search for it on Amazon came up with a number of different results.

As far as I can see, the only one that started off as an indie book in the modern self-publishing market was The Martian, and that was a unique situation. Andy Weir was rejected by agents and publishers, so he serialized it on his website. It developed a following and after fans begged him to release a Kindle version, he did, with a very simple cover.



At that point, the cover didn't matter, because The Martian had become a phenomenon. But that's not something you can count on because although Weir is a very talented writer, there's a massive element of luck involved in something going viral like that.

Most indies start off with no name recognition and no publisher helping us with marketing. We have the deck stacked against us. And if we can show readers of other books in our genre that our books are similar to the ones they've already enjoyed, they're more likely to take a chance on us. Is it possible to break out with a cover that stands apart? Yes, but it's also a lot more difficult and many of us want to build a readership base before we start taking those risks.

If you want to do something different, more power to you. But don't tell people who choose a different path that they're wrong.
 
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mike herman

Re: This post is directed to all the cover designers.
« Reply #32 on: January 08, 2019, 08:36:22 AM »
accidentally came across these premade covers. interesting stuff. Nice work from an artist.
http://www.bukovero.com/
 
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PJ Post

Re: This post is directed to all the cover designers.
« Reply #33 on: January 08, 2019, 08:50:01 AM »
accidentally came across these premade covers.

Very cool
 

PJ Post

Re: This post is directed to all the cover designers.
« Reply #34 on: January 08, 2019, 09:15:13 AM »
If you want to do something different, more power to you. But don't tell people who choose a different path that they're wrong.

Not sure anyone did, but maybe I missed it...

Also, that's not what happened with The Martian. Weir wrote chapters and published them on his blog over the course of three years, often crowd-sourcing the science. It was available on his site in its entirety, he only put it up on Amazon for convenience. It was his previous book that he couldn't sell.

Also also, it doesn't matter if a book is traditionally published or not when it comes to cover trends - they're all following each other now.

And regardless of the specifics of the other examples mentioned, lots of books become successful while totally sidestepping current trends - it's how we get new trends. Same goes for genre conventions. In fact, all styles change over time, and it's pretty much always attributable to a new and original voice.
 

GFXJames

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Re: This post is directed to all the cover designers.
« Reply #35 on: January 08, 2019, 09:17:13 AM »
accidentally came across these premade covers. interesting stuff. Nice work from an artist.
http://www.bukovero.com/

I indeed made some compliment before, in the artist's thread. Because seems to have a very strong knowledge of composition, and everything. Very strong style, very good technically. Everything. Probably my fav from all what I have seen at least till now.

Edit : Seems to be mostly graphic design, and there's great illustration, maybe not anything 100% painting. Full artistry, in any case. Definitely not 3D. For me, that's art, as solid as it can get.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2019, 09:24:07 AM by GFXJames »
 

GFXJames

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Re: This post is directed to all the cover designers.
« Reply #36 on: January 08, 2019, 09:30:47 AM »

And regardless of the specifics of the other examples mentioned, lots of books become successful while totally sidestepping current trends - it's how we get new trends. Same goes for genre conventions. In fact, all styles change over time, and it's pretty much always attributable to a new and original voice.

That's my default line of thought in any graphic field (or business area), but as I'm very new to the writing world, after some resistance, I tend to believe what others tell me about the specifics, habits, etc (specially when I see consensus). So.. I hope you are right, as no matter how much one tries to stay in a trend, I end up doing my thing, almost always...

mike herman

Re: This post is directed to all the cover designers.
« Reply #37 on: January 10, 2019, 01:31:25 AM »
This appeared in my twitter slot. Great resource of illustrators available for covers.  https://twitter.com/hashtag/PortfolioDay?src=hash
 

Shayne

Re: This post is directed to all the cover designers.
« Reply #38 on: January 12, 2019, 05:28:57 AM »

And regardless of the specifics of the other examples mentioned, lots of books become successful while totally sidestepping current trends - it's how we get new trends. Same goes for genre conventions. In fact, all styles change over time, and it's pretty much always attributable to a new and original voice.

The books that become successful while sidestepping trends are usually by authors who have some sort of following. Or by an author with a new pen name but loads of marketing savvy and contacts. Not by a legit first-time published author with no readership to help sell the book.
 
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guest153

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Re: This post is directed to all the cover designers.
« Reply #39 on: January 12, 2019, 08:32:25 AM »
If you want to do something different, more power to you. But don't tell people who choose a different path that they're wrong.

Not sure anyone did, but maybe I missed it...

Also, that's not what happened with The Martian. Weir wrote chapters and published them on his blog over the course of three years, often crowd-sourcing the science. It was available on his site in its entirety, he only put it up on Amazon for convenience. It was his previous book that he couldn't sell.

That doesn't really have anything to do with the point I was making, but fine.

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Also also, it doesn't matter if a book is traditionally published or not when it comes to cover trends - they're all following each other now.

It does matter because traditional publishers have resources indies don't. They can get book reviews published in major publications, they can arrange for premium real estate in bookstores, and they can also get premium placement on some of the vendors. Plus, as Shayne mentioned, name recognition.

Quote
And regardless of the specifics of the other examples mentioned, lots of books become successful while totally sidestepping current trends - it's how we get new trends. Same goes for genre conventions. In fact, all styles change over time, and it's pretty much always attributable to a new and original voice.

And a lot more sink into the phone-number rankings. So again, if you want to try and be that breakout book that defies the trends, more power to you. Just know that the chances are very slim and manage your expectations appropriately. If every book that tried to break the trends was a hit, there wouldn't be any trends.
 
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PJ Post

Re: This post is directed to all the cover designers.
« Reply #40 on: January 12, 2019, 02:51:55 PM »
Current trends begun by no-name Indies:

1) Space opera - floating spaceship
2) Urban Fantasy - magic-hands/saturated color
3) NA - abs

Following the herd is only one path.

And endcaps have nothing to with cover trends, fads maybe, but not long-term trends.
 

guest153

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Re: This post is directed to all the cover designers.
« Reply #41 on: January 12, 2019, 04:25:12 PM »
Current trends begun by no-name Indies:

1) Space opera - floating spaceship
2) Urban Fantasy - magic-hands/saturated color
3) NA - abs

Following the herd is only one path.

And endcaps have nothing to with cover trends, fads maybe, but not long-term trends.

Wouldn't really call those risky ventures that broke trends. They were outgrowths of existing genres that capitalized on tastes that had been nurtured in the fandom for a very long time. In the case of urban fantasy, it really started to take root about twenty years ago with Buffy and with space opera, that dates back to Star Wars (can't speak to NA because I don't know much about the history of that genre or its fandom). Plus, urban fantasy also owes a huge debt to the Anita Blake books, which predated indie publishing.

But for argument's sake, let's say that these were massively different mold-breakers. That makes three in total. Sounds more like an exception to the rule to me.
 
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PJ Post

Re: This post is directed to all the cover designers.
« Reply #42 on: January 13, 2019, 01:52:23 AM »
Wouldn't really call those risky ventures that broke trends. They were outgrowths of existing genres that capitalized on tastes that had been nurtured in the fandom for a very long time. In the case of urban fantasy, it really started to take root about twenty years ago with Buffy and with space opera, that dates back to Star Wars (can't speak to NA because I don't know much about the history of that genre or its fandom). Plus, urban fantasy also owes a huge debt to the Anita Blake books, which predated indie publishing.

But for argument's sake, let's say that these were massively different mold-breakers. That makes three in total. Sounds more like an exception to the rule to me.

1) Anything different carries some measure of risk, and 2) every current trend began as a unique writing voice (that became super successful) or a graphic design voice. So all of them launched into the unknown because there was no data to support the idea. I just listed the first three recent ones that came to mind, and no, none of them were based on previous trends. For example, Buffy didn't have glowing hands. Patricia Briggs, as nice as her covers are, didn't have magic-hands on her covers either. I could have mentioned steamy-romance too, which was influenced by the cover design of 50 Shades, which was a continuation of the cover design of Twilight - which was new.

Cover aesthetics in the seventies became free-flowing, and then became more framed in the eighties - which all disappeared in the nineties. You can set your time machine calendar by the typography of each era. You're a comics guy, you can see the change in comic art over the same period. Cover design is like the width of ties or shape of heels - they're always changing. Someone comes up with a new or successful idea and everyone jumps on board, right up until they jump off for the next new thing.

The seventies were depressing. We got movies like Taxi Driver and China Town...and then Star Wars came out (incredibly risky, expensive and there was no reason to believe it would work - Lucas just wanted to tell that story - Art before commerce) and by the end of the decade things were changing. The eighties ushered in a new era of hope, and, as a result, movies became much less dreary. Just compare the aesthetic of Alien with Aliens. In the seventies we had Punk...in the eighties we got New Wave. Oh, and before I forget, Indies also influenced the vibe of Post-Apoc covers.

The design world is small, everyone is influenced by everyone, even if they've never met. Designers pay attention. This is true, for the most part, of all Art and design.
 
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Shayne

Re: This post is directed to all the cover designers.
« Reply #43 on: January 13, 2019, 02:19:54 AM »
Wouldn't really call those risky ventures that broke trends. They were outgrowths of existing genres that capitalized on tastes that had been nurtured in the fandom for a very long time. In the case of urban fantasy, it really started to take root about twenty years ago with Buffy and with space opera, that dates back to Star Wars (can't speak to NA because I don't know much about the history of that genre or its fandom). Plus, urban fantasy also owes a huge debt to the Anita Blake books, which predated indie publishing.

But for argument's sake, let's say that these were massively different mold-breakers. That makes three in total. Sounds more like an exception to the rule to me.

1) Anything different carries some measure of risk, and 2) every current trend began as a unique writing voice (that became super successful) or a graphic design voice. So all of them launched into the unknown because there was no data to support the idea. I just listed the first three recent ones that came to mind, and no, none of them were based on previous trends. For example, Buffy didn't have glowing hands. Patricia Briggs, as nice as her covers are, didn't have magic-hands on her covers either. I could have mentioned steamy-romance too, which was influenced by the cover design of 50 Shades, which was a continuation of the cover design of Twilight - which was new.

Cover aesthetics in the seventies became free-flowing, and then became more framed in the eighties - which all disappeared in the nineties. You can set your time machine calendar by the typography of each era. You're a comics guy, you can see the change in comic art over the same period. Cover design is like the width of ties or shape of heels - they're always changing. Someone comes up with a new or successful idea and everyone jumps on board, right up until they jump off for the next new thing.

The seventies were depressing. We got movies like Taxi Driver and China Town...and then Star Wars came out (incredibly risky, expensive and there was no reason to believe it would work - Lucas just wanted to tell that story - Art before commerce) and by the end of the decade things were changing. The eighties ushered in a new era of hope, and, as a result, movies became much less dreary. Just compare the aesthetic of Alien with Aliens. In the seventies we had Punk...in the eighties we got New Wave. Oh, and before I forget, Indies also influenced the vibe of Post-Apoc covers.

The design world is small, everyone is influenced by everyone, even if they've never met. Designers pay attention. This is true, for the most part, of all Art and design.

Buffy and Mercy Thompson may not have had glowing hands, but it's not really that much of a leap to go from a badass woman on a cover to a badass woman with glowing hands and more saturated colors. That's an evolution, not something entirely new. Man-chest on romance covers has been around since Fabio back in the... '80s? That isn't new at all. And yes, Twilight went in an entirely new direction for a vampire book, but it was traditionally published, and since Little, Brown paid a $700,000 advance for the first three books, I would imagine they were throwing quite the marketing budget behind it, which can help a lot when it comes to having a genre-bucking cover. And as far as floating spaceships go, those have been around since Arthur C. Clarke, Orson Scott Card, and Kim Stanley Robinson back in the '80s and '90s.
 
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PJ Post

Re: This post is directed to all the cover designers.
« Reply #44 on: January 13, 2019, 02:47:30 AM »
Buffy and Mercy Thompson may not have had glowing hands, but it's not really that much of a leap to go from a badass woman on a cover to a badass woman with glowing hands and more saturated colors. That's an evolution, not something entirely new. Man-chest on romance covers has been around since Fabio back in the... '80s? That isn't new at all. And yes, Twilight went in an entirely new direction for a vampire book, but it was traditionally published, and since Little, Brown paid a $700,000 advance for the first three books, I would imagine they were throwing quite the marketing budget behind it, which can help a lot when it comes to having a genre-bucking cover. And as far as floating spaceships go, those have been around since Arthur C. Clarke, Orson Scott Card, and Kim Stanley Robinson back in the '80s and '90s.

When we talk about cover design, we're talking about mechanics and composition, not just whether or not the character depicted is a bad ass. I mean Tarzan was a badass and a man-chest cover, but those long ago designs have nothing to do with current genre marketing.

So the glowing hands are different. The saturated colors are different. Fabio covers are not ab covers. Ab covers are new (were new) - headless. Spaceships are common in SF, but not like they are now. Again, it's the execution that defines the design, not just themes.

And, I'm not arguing against the evolution of design, you are totally right about that. But new stuff always begins with something different, something that challenges the status quo, even if it's small, otherwise you just get this ultra-refinement of a single idea - which is where we are with many genres now.
 
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Shayne

Re: This post is directed to all the cover designers.
« Reply #45 on: January 13, 2019, 03:16:05 AM »
Buffy and Mercy Thompson may not have had glowing hands, but it's not really that much of a leap to go from a badass woman on a cover to a badass woman with glowing hands and more saturated colors. That's an evolution, not something entirely new. Man-chest on romance covers has been around since Fabio back in the... '80s? That isn't new at all. And yes, Twilight went in an entirely new direction for a vampire book, but it was traditionally published, and since Little, Brown paid a $700,000 advance for the first three books, I would imagine they were throwing quite the marketing budget behind it, which can help a lot when it comes to having a genre-bucking cover. And as far as floating spaceships go, those have been around since Arthur C. Clarke, Orson Scott Card, and Kim Stanley Robinson back in the '80s and '90s.

When we talk about cover design, we're talking about mechanics and composition, not just whether or not the character depicted is a bad ass. I mean Tarzan was a badass and a man-chest cover, but those long ago designs have nothing to do with current genre marketing.

So the glowing hands are different. The saturated colors are different. Fabio covers are not ab covers. Ab covers are new (were new) - headless. Spaceships are common in SF, but not like they are now. Again, it's the execution that defines the design, not just themes.

And, I'm not arguing against the evolution of design, you are totally right about that. But new stuff always begins with something different, something that challenges the status quo, even if it's small, otherwise you just get this ultra-refinement of a single idea - which is where we are with many genres now.

Tarzan wasn't a romance or an urban fantasy, so he's really got nothing to do with anything that we're discussing here.

And yes, glowing hands are different. But they're an addition to, an evolution of something that we're already seeing, not something completely new. They're a small thing in the grand scheme, and aren't likely to make someone think that the book is a totally different genre than it is. And while Fabio covers aren't the same as the new ab covers that we're seeing, they were the start of it. A sexy man with his ripped abs showing. Since then, romance covers have gone from illustrated to photo-manipulated, in large part because many indie authors can't afford illustrated covers, and the heads got chopped off because readers wanted to be able to picture the characters the way they wanted. So in a lot of cases it's not about challenging the status quo, it's about necessity.

Also, there's a big difference between a slight evolution of what's already going, and doing something completely different for the sake of being completely different. The first, while slightly risky, probably won't backfire too badly on the author, while the second can result in extremely poor sales because no one realizes that the book is their kind of book.
 
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Denise

Re: This post is directed to all the cover designers.
« Reply #46 on: January 13, 2019, 04:18:50 AM »
Guys, I love your discussion on the evolution of trends.

I just wanted to add that indie publishing, which is ebook focused, had its own needs and certain tropes emerged due to those needs.

An ebook needs to look good in a very tiny size, and indie publishers frequently depend on that tiny-sized cover to attract readers' attention enough that they'll click. This need explains saturated colors, dark edges with a lighter middle, high contrast, large titles, simple covers (you can't have something legible at thumbnail with an overly complex composition), and a few other tropes we see. It also explains the need for tropes: you want to tell the reader what kind of book you have in one second with a thumbnail. It's hard to do it with a very unique cover.

That said, this thread started with some examples of illustrations, and while I love illustrated covers, they can be just as conventional and even cliche as photomanipulated covers, even if they tend to give the cover a unique look, which is nice. I also think that covers can use tropes and be unique at the same time, depending on how the tropes are used and on the overall composition. It's a little what we do with the writing, right?
 
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mike herman

Re: This post is directed to all the cover designers.
« Reply #47 on: January 13, 2019, 04:42:12 AM »
Great discussion.
I am currently running 2 Bookfunnel group promos. Besides the obvious of getting email follows, it turns out that it is an excellent place to test book covers and book descriptions. The promos are essentially beauty contests. The books with the most clicks are the ones that readers were the most curious about. The ones with the most claims are the ones that had the most intriguing book descriptions. What is interesting about all that is the comparison of clicks to claims. If a book had a low percentage of claims compared to clicks, then the description seems to be lacking. Conversely, if the percentage was high, then the description is doing its job.
So, bottom line, high clicks means you are winning the beauty contest. If you are one of the low click books then its time to take a look at the high click books and see what the difference is between you and them.
The end result is that Bookfunnel is a great place to test your cover against the competition. Even if you really don't want to give it away, it may be worth a few hundred giveaways to find out whether your book cover is appealing to the target audience. Picking and choosing which promo becomes important. Romance probably won't do well in a military promo.
 

PJ Post

Re: This post is directed to all the cover designers.
« Reply #48 on: January 13, 2019, 05:59:45 AM »
Tarzan wasn't a romance or an urban fantasy, so he's really got nothing to do with anything that we're discussing here.

Tarzan was an example to illustrate that there's more to design than a collection of thematic elements. As you pointed out, even though Tarzan covers included the same tropes as romance and urban fantasy, it's in a completely unrelated genre - unmistakably so.

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And yes, glowing hands are different. But they're an addition to, an evolution of something that we're already seeing, not something completely new. They're a small thing in the grand scheme, and aren't likely to make someone think that the book is a totally different genre than it is.

Magic-hands have taken over urban fantasy covers, it's not a minor detail - it's pervasive. And I'm not talking about changing genre tropes, I'm talking about the introduction of different elements and compositions that can create new trends, which is what we see in the evolution of cover design. I used the Star Wars example because it was instrumental in changing the vibe of movies. I know it's hard to imagine now, but SW was socially revolutionary for it's time. The seventies were about moral relativism while SW gave us clearly defined bad guys to overcome and clearly defined good guys to root for. Star Wars was a sea change in movies.

Quote
And while Fabio covers aren't the same as the new ab covers that we're seeing, they were the start of it. A sexy man with his ripped abs showing. Since then, romance covers have gone from illustrated to photo-manipulated, in large part because many indie authors can't afford illustrated covers, and the heads got chopped off because readers wanted to be able to picture the characters the way they wanted. So in a lot of cases it's not about challenging the status quo, it's about necessity.

Regardless of the impetus for the change, what does removing the head from the image say about the target audience and how they relate to these covers? It's not the same as the Fabio covers. From a psychological perspective, the messaging has changed, and dramatically at that. What may appear as a minor thematic change can actually be much more significant when it comes to composition vis a vis psychological engagement.

Quote
Also, there's a big difference between a slight evolution of what's already going, and doing something completely different for the sake of being completely different. The first, while slightly risky, probably won't backfire too badly on the author, while the second can result in extremely poor sales because no one realizes that the book is their kind of book.

Lucas didn't do Star Wars just to be different, he did it because he wanted to tell that specific story. I think stories should be written without regard for audience expectations, but covers mean our stories have become products. So, with that in mind, covers should be designed to sell our brand as an extension of our messaging, be that a fungible UF, NA or SO book, or an attempt to be completely original. Originality doesn't change the genre itself. Star Wars was still science fiction, just like Silent Running or 2001.

Again, I'm not advocating for one or the other, but just like the whole writing to market discussion and the graphs I posted up-thread, both paths are viable alternatives...more of the same or something completely different. The important thing to be aware of, though, is that these two market segments are defined by pretty different demographics, not the least of which is price sensitivity.

Apple is a lifestyle brand that depends on the latest and best innovations.

Microsoft so isn't.

Neither approach is wrong, but the strategies are very different.
 

Avdal

Re: This post is directed to all the cover designers.
« Reply #49 on: January 13, 2019, 07:23:49 PM »


Quote
And while Fabio covers aren't the same as the new ab covers that we're seeing, they were the start of it. A sexy man with his ripped abs showing. Since then, romance covers have gone from illustrated to photo-manipulated, in large part because many indie authors can't afford illustrated covers, and the heads got chopped off because readers wanted to be able to picture the characters the way they wanted. So in a lot of cases it's not about challenging the status quo, it's about necessity.

Regardless of the impetus for the change, what does removing the head from the image say about the target audience and how they relate to these covers? It's not the same as the Fabio covers. From a psychological perspective, the messaging has changed, and dramatically at that. What may appear as a minor thematic change can actually be much more significant when it comes to composition vis a vis psychological engagement.


Okay, from a designer's perspective, there are usually 2 reasons we chop of the head, and they're not about reader fantasy:
1st is regarding the model's privacy and that they might not like how their image is being used. If the cover is for an erotica, the model may object to being identified. There have been cases of models complaining about this in the past. Showing just a muscular body with a hint of a jawline keeps the model from being identified. For the designers POV, we don't always know how the cover will be used. Especially with premade covers. Authors also change their mind later and buy a cover for a romance then use it on an erotica instead (or the nature of their book changes as they right it). It's not just for erotica, though. Suppose you have a high heat MM bear shifter romance and the model doesn't want to be connected to a MM or shifter book? Many of the photos sites warn against depicting an identifiable model in a way that may cause embarrassment. That's where the genre comes in. It's much more likely that the model would be embarrassed by being associated with a gay shifter romance or a dark BDSM versus being the face of a detective or adventure story, etc.

I'm not making a point that this is right or wrong (or that the model should have thought about that before posing, because I always feel that "should have" is one of the most obnoxiously argumentative and least helpful phrases in the whole language). Generally speaking, the higher the heat level of the cover and its expected book, the more a designer should consider hiding the model's face. IMO at least.

The second issue is also with premades or sometimes custom. There are only so many stock photos out there (and there are many more photos of women then men), and writers are going to want their cover models to at least generally resemble their characters. Suppose their lead is of the tall, dark, and handsome variety but the stock photo that best fits the cover feature a tall and handsome model with blond dreads? Instead of trying to edit the hair which will raise the cost, it's much cheaper and faster to simply hide the incorrect feature out of sight.

Oh, and I suppose a third reason is that now a lot of photographers are aware of these concerns and many of their photos already have the head chopped off/obscured. Below is one of my premades where the stock photo was pre-chopped and there was no upper head to work with which made the decision much easier!

 
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PJ Post

Re: This post is directed to all the cover designers.
« Reply #50 on: January 14, 2019, 12:42:04 AM »
Okay, from a designer's perspective, there are usually 2 reasons we chop of the head, and they're not about reader fantasy:


You've given a great explanation of why this one trend came about, but that's not the reason it's still used. If it didn't sell books, we'd have figured out something else. We use this trick because it works - really really well. So now we have to back up and ask, why does it work? My belief is that it's due to a change in the target demographic and how they shop for erotica and steamy romance.

You also mentioned a bunch of new erotica genres, and while they may have existed out on the web somewhere, Amazon made them mainstream-ish. Even Colbert talked about Dino-erotica on his show, back when it was a thing. These new genres have their own tropes, elements of which sometimes migrate to adjacent genres. So we get design evolution, but again, the first people doing this were the risk takers, the innovators. And they had no idea what was or wasn't going to work.
 

Shayne

Re: This post is directed to all the cover designers.
« Reply #51 on: January 14, 2019, 02:17:27 AM »

Okay, from a designer's perspective, there are usually 2 reasons we chop of the head, and they're not about reader fantasy:

Maybe not in your experience, but from this designer's perspective it's often about reader fantasy. And author fantasy, too, for that matter, in that the author doesn't want a guy on their cover who looks nothing like the character in their heads, even if the physical characteristics match up to a general description.
 

Avdal

Re: This post is directed to all the cover designers.
« Reply #52 on: January 14, 2019, 03:58:46 AM »
Okay, from a designer's perspective, there are usually 2 reasons we chop of the head, and they're not about reader fantasy:


You've given a great explanation of why this one trend came about, but that's not the reason it's still used. If it didn't sell books, we'd have figured out something else. We use this trick because it works - really really well. So now we have to back up and ask, why does it work? My belief is that it's due to a change in the target demographic and how they shop for erotica and steamy romance.

You also mentioned a bunch of new erotica genres, and while they may have existed out on the web somewhere, Amazon made them mainstream-ish. Even Colbert talked about Dino-erotica on his show, back when it was a thing. These new genres have their own tropes, elements of which sometimes migrate to adjacent genres. So we get design evolution, but again, the first people doing this were the risk takers, the innovators. And they had no idea what was or wasn't going to work.

I suppose I don't really see what the problem is then? Like you said, it's working really well so... why fix something that's working well? Or what you gain by analyzing the psychology behind it? Readers are still going to have the same buying habits regardless.  I have a couple more unusual covers in my catalog and all I can say is that they're a lot of fun to make but they're also not the ones that get the attention and interest.
 

PJ Post

Re: This post is directed to all the cover designers.
« Reply #53 on: January 14, 2019, 05:53:22 AM »
Okay, from a designer's perspective, there are usually 2 reasons we chop of the head, and they're not about reader fantasy:


You've given a great explanation of why this one trend came about, but that's not the reason it's still used. If it didn't sell books, we'd have figured out something else. We use this trick because it works - really really well. So now we have to back up and ask, why does it work? My belief is that it's due to a change in the target demographic and how they shop for erotica and steamy romance.

You also mentioned a bunch of new erotica genres, and while they may have existed out on the web somewhere, Amazon made them mainstream-ish. Even Colbert talked about Dino-erotica on his show, back when it was a thing. These new genres have their own tropes, elements of which sometimes migrate to adjacent genres. So we get design evolution, but again, the first people doing this were the risk takers, the innovators. And they had no idea what was or wasn't going to work.

I suppose I don't really see what the problem is then? Like you said, it's working really well so... why fix something that's working well? Or what you gain by analyzing the psychology behind it? Readers are still going to have the same buying habits regardless.  I have a couple more unusual covers in my catalog and all I can say is that they're a lot of fun to make but they're also not the ones that get the attention and interest.

There isn't a problem per se, it's just marketing: the better we understand consumer behavior and the psychology behind it, the better we can influence their future purchase decisions through package messaging. So, depending on one's business strategy, we may get better results by refining existing trends, while at other times we may get better results by trying something new.
 

mike herman

Re: This post is directed to all the cover designers.
« Reply #54 on: January 17, 2019, 01:39:34 AM »
Came across this magazine that had one of the artists i follow in it. The issue features an incredible collection of talent. http://www.magcloud.com/browse/issue/1539858?fbclid=IwAR1gITKcheiTUkDi_ycYPF8fsoz0tnJe9mCzAiEMfSt4asUufLxS-qaEj8o
 

mike herman

Re: This post is directed to all the cover designers.
« Reply #55 on: January 21, 2019, 01:02:40 AM »
Saw a book with an interesting cover. Looked into the illustrator. Nice stuff. Here is his link.
http://www.jasonchanart.com/
 

GFXJames

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Re: This post is directed to all the cover designers.
« Reply #56 on: January 22, 2019, 01:05:21 PM »
Okay, from a designer's perspective, there are usually 2 reasons we chop of the head, and they're not about reader fantasy:
1st is regarding the model's privacy and that they might not like how their image is being used. If the cover is for an erotica, the model may object to being identified. There have been cases of models complaining about this in the past. Showing just a muscular body with a hint of a jawline keeps the model from being identified. For the designers POV, we don't always know how the cover will be used. Especially with premade covers. Authors also change their mind later and buy a cover for a romance then use it on an erotica instead (or the nature of their book changes as they right it). It's not just for erotica, though. Suppose you have a high heat MM bear shifter romance and the model doesn't want to be connected to a MM or shifter book? Many of the photos sites warn against depicting an identifiable model in a way that may cause embarrassment. That's where the genre comes in. It's much more likely that the model would be embarrassed by being associated with a gay shifter romance or a dark BDSM versus being the face of a detective or adventure story, etc.

I find your post extremely interesting. At least for me: I'm a just arrived here, a newcomer. But it gives us illustrators some hope in the industry. Nothing easier than to generate from scratch any human or creature, with the exact features, personality, vibe and even face expression/feel of the moment, without restrictions... I can see how to be very accurate in this regard is extremely difficult if dealing with (even a huge catalog...been there when told by a boss, me working as a graphic designer, being told to absolutely depend only on stock photos. What a pain it was. I can only show my deepest respect for those producing those wonderful covers by doing so) stock photos. Tends to be extremely difficult, even hours of searching in several catalogs, to find that EXACT image (never happened) you are after. Only matched by looking for a specific font...

But an illustration only needs to ask for permision to own's imagination, happily. (of course, full training in anatomy drawing and etc is a must. But if speaking of a relatively high level, usually not the average teenager (usually! there are genius...). The pity is people tend to go to those, thinking is going to be cheaper (surprisingly, it is often not the case)). Of course, the hugest problem is the pricing in illustration (my take is it we all should lower certain bars there, but I'm alone in that one...). There's a ton of opportunities for illustration in book covers, IMO. But might never happen massively, as it takes time produce one, and people want their deserved payment, of course...I still think it's possible a different take at it, though.

And this not going against a particular trend's kind of established depiction. I believe one can stick to that, whether doing it as design, illustration or 3D (but if illustration takes more time than design, 3D takes way more, even. Done at the needed quality level, that is). I personally would choose to have a bit of both, as an artist: I understand the business rules... I know what is it to eat your artwork for not going for what people is hunting for. In the other side, I believe I'd allow my self some premades in entirely my strongest, personal style. IMO, that's healthy for the artist: IE, I wouldn't worry if a 10% of the portfolio wont sell, if it is showing what I can really do in custom work, for the "brave enough " clients.


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I'm not making a point that this is right or wrong (or that the model should have thought about that before posing, because I always feel that "should have" is one of the most obnoxiously argumentative and least helpful phrases in the whole language). Generally speaking, the higher the heat level of the cover and its expected book, the more a designer should consider hiding the model's face. IMO at least.

I can completely understand the models' concerns... Most model licenses are complex, too. Well like most licenses are, in general. I wouldn't criticize that when I am myself extremely cautious with all related to privacy. It's their job, I know, but still, is completely human that they might have concerns, varying those from person to person.

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The second issue is also with premades or sometimes custom. There are only so many stock photos out there (and there are many more photos of women then men), and writers are going to want their cover models to at least generally resemble their characters. Suppose their lead is of the tall, dark, and handsome variety but the stock photo that best fits the cover feature a tall and handsome model with blond dreads? Instead of trying to edit the hair which will raise the cost, it's much cheaper and faster to simply hide the incorrect feature out of sight.

Yeah, another perfect case for (cheap yet good) illustration... :D . In any case, it can't help with the mass production in any way, can't compete with graphic design/stock photography. The indie publishing scene looks to me as an incredible machine producing books... I don't think we have enough good(and inexpensive) illustrators in the entire world to keep up with that crazy pace and massive production, lol.

Not sure if has been mentioned, though, please excuse me if it did (some parts are old posts, can't remember), but another reason why (and this would apply to photos, 3D or illustration) to "chop the heads" (btw, a general no-no in general art composition across several fields...but all is context, anyway) , it could be that... well, in some cases, the author has such a particular, specific view of the main character, that probably no illustration, no photo, no 3D is going to totally, absolutely nail what is there in the author's imagination, satisfy that depiction.  I believe that type of case could be like a 5% of the cases, but still, for those chopping the head might at least not make the author see a face which feels strange, is not the very exact person in mind, even having all features provided till every depth.  From what I read, most people would be happy with a 98% of approach to the own concept, or even a 70%... And in a large bunch of cases (of stuff, posts, cover petitions, etc, that I've read till now) , just that the character matches the overall global genre specs and the story...


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Re: This post is directed to all the cover designers.
« Reply #57 on: January 22, 2019, 08:47:40 PM »
Not sure if has been mentioned, though, please excuse me if it did (some parts are old posts, can't remember), but another reason why (and this would apply to photos, 3D or illustration) to "chop the heads" (btw, a general no-no in general art composition across several fields...but all is context, anyway) , it could be that... well, in some cases, the author has such a particular, specific view of the main character, that probably no illustration, no photo, no 3D is going to totally, absolutely nail what is there in the author's imagination, satisfy that depiction.  I believe that type of case could be like a 5% of the cases, but still, for those chopping the head might at least not make the author see a face which feels strange, is not the very exact person in mind, even having all features provided till every depth.  From what I read, most people would be happy with a 98% of approach to the own concept, or even a 70%... And in a large bunch of cases (of stuff, posts, cover petitions, etc, that I've read till now) , just that the character matches the overall global genre specs and the story...

For my Luther Cross series, I wanted the character's face shown. Unfortunately, male stock photo models are predominantly white and while my designer and I eventually did find one model we really liked, he only had like one image. So the choices were either reuse that same head over and over again (which would have looked very obvious) or crop the head off.
 
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