Author Topic: Paperback marketing nowadays  (Read 1277 times)

alhawke

Paperback marketing nowadays
« on: December 01, 2024, 11:13:53 AM »
Just reaching out to see if anyone has any good strategies to market paperbacks nowadays. I seem to check every year or so and never get much advice on writer forums. Anyone found any methods to bring up paperback sales?

It's hard to run paperback discounts and promotions. Oddly, I've found audiobooks easier to market than paperbacks.

I've tried co-author paperback promotions with authors on Boookfunnel without much success.

'Tis the holiday season to sell paperbacks. Any strategies out there to sell more? If not, I'll keep doing my usual and focus mainly on ebooks.
 

Bill Hiatt

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Re: Paperback marketing nowadays
« Reply #1 on: December 01, 2024, 11:24:12 PM »
Paperback marketing is tricky because paperback buyers tend to be much more likely to prefer trad books to indie ones, at least in my experience. Advertising the book in other ways will probably cause a small number of paperback sales if someone comes along who is open to indie but prefers paperback. Most of my paperback sales are in my two titles that are closest to lit fic (because the lit fic crowd also seems to be more paper-oriented).

Last month, I did try including the paperbacks in one of my AMS ads (the one with the two lit ficish books). I saw a small increase, and the ACOS improved--but it still wasn't yielding a positive ROI, so I can't really recommend it.


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LilyBLily

Re: Paperback marketing nowadays
« Reply #2 on: December 01, 2024, 11:35:17 PM »
Sorry, but all the anecdotal evidence I have is that hand selling at fairs produces the most paperback fiction sales, unless you are an author with the kind of following that wants a fancy edition and autographing. At this time of year, perhaps ads pushing the paperbacks as gifts might move some.
 
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alhawke

Re: Paperback marketing nowadays
« Reply #3 on: December 02, 2024, 02:45:05 AM »
Hmm... I think I'll experiment with BookBub ads directed to paperbacks??. I get sales with BB ads with ebooks and audios. I have a feeling, though, it'll be a bit of a money pit. But it's a thought...

Book fairs and conventions are another topic I wouldn't mind hearing about. Never been to one.
 

Bill Hiatt

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Re: Paperback marketing nowadays
« Reply #4 on: December 02, 2024, 03:27:58 AM »
I haven't gone to a book fair, either. The people who do and have put in the effort to have quality books do seem to move copies. But obviously, people come to book fairs precisely to buy books, so it would be easier to see there than with a more random group.


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Lorri Moulton

Re: Paperback marketing nowadays
« Reply #5 on: December 02, 2024, 04:21:25 AM »
I live on the east side of Washington state, so we don't have access to the big fairs and events on the west side of the state. 

However, an author who lives over there does a lot of paperback sales at those events. Another travels around to fairs from the west side into Montana (and probably beyond) because he specializes in a certain type of fantasy and loves to "talk shop" with everyone.

Crowdfunding can be a great way to sell paperbacks...especially special editions. I don't write the type of books that do amazingly well there, but some fantasy authors are making tens of thousands in gross sales.  I don't know if they earn much of a profit after it's all done with the add-ons and extras, but it's worth taking a look if that's something that appeals.

Author of Romance, Fantasy, Fairytales, Mystery & Suspense, and Historical Non-Fiction @ Lavender Cottage Books
https://lavendercottagebooks.com/
 
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PJ Post

Re: Paperback marketing nowadays
« Reply #6 on: December 02, 2024, 05:00:59 AM »
Author Branding is always the best solution to these sales questions - always.

Your 1000 True FansTM will buy them. They'll by new covers. They'll buy special editions. They'll buy autographed editions. They'll buy posters and t-shirts, too. And they'll be excited about it! No sales pitch required.

The alternative is to slog it out in the discount commodity bin with millions of other titles. There only way to cut through the noise there is massive AMS spends, and even then there's no guarantee.
 
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alhawke

Re: Paperback marketing nowadays
« Reply #7 on: December 02, 2024, 05:23:16 AM »
Crowdfunding can be a great way to sell paperbacks...especially special editions. I don't write the type of books that do amazingly well there, but some fantasy authors are making tens of thousands in gross sales.  I don't know if they earn much of a profit after it's all done with the add-ons and extras, but it's worth taking a look if that's something that appeals.
Ah, I still have yet to really investigate this. I recall hearing about that as an option.
Author Branding is always the best solution to these sales questions - always.
Your 1000 True FansTM will buy them. They'll by new covers. They'll buy special editions. They'll buy autographed editions. They'll buy posters and t-shirts, too. And they'll be excited about it! No sales pitch required.
Most of my fans are ebook readers. They buy ebooks when they come out. I have a few now that go for the audiobooks, though. It's a circular argument. My fans have accrued by sales, sure, but also by marketing. My marketing success has been with ebook and audio, not with paperbacks.
 

Lorri Moulton

Re: Paperback marketing nowadays
« Reply #8 on: December 02, 2024, 06:16:31 AM »
My experience is that readers are not always comfortable moving from one platform to another or one book format to another.

Some love paperbacks and won't even enter a contest for an ebook.  Some love ebooks and won't buy audio.  Or even take a free promo code.

True fans.  Yes, there are some true fans out there, but that doesn't mean they can all afford to go out and buy all the ebooks, paperbacks, audiobooks, merchandise, crowdfunding special editions, and all the other options we might try.

I don't believe a fan on limited income is NOT a true fan.  They just don't have the funds to indulge in all the options. However, they might also be the ones leaving reviews, telling their friends, and coming back to our store to download a free ebook for a family member.   :dog1:

Author of Romance, Fantasy, Fairytales, Mystery & Suspense, and Historical Non-Fiction @ Lavender Cottage Books
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LilyBLily

Re: Paperback marketing nowadays
« Reply #9 on: December 02, 2024, 06:36:46 AM »
I have fans on limited incomes, and I'm very happy that they are willing to read my ARCs and leave reviews. They are not at the stage of life for buying extra copies in different formats, or merch, but they will write a literate review and post it multiple places, and they actually like what I write. That's a win.

I have a few fans who prefer a print book, and that's another reason I release those.

Book fairs can be iffy, and I never recommend them unless you enjoy contact with people. Someone I know just was at one this weekend and sold ten books but much of the day was bored stiff. I'd say that's a normal number of sales for a so-so event, although some people sell many, many more copies. I've participated in a couple where I sold only one or two books; actually, I was surprised that I sold any, and my buy-in for the events was cheap in terms of cash although time consuming. Some romance writers groups aggressively seek out book fairs and do group tables and even have the group buy the table. The dangers in book fairs are: a long drive, a hotel room, meal cost, high table cost, large number of competing participating authors, time at the table (and who is there to watch it while you take a bathroom break?), and lost writing time. Not to mention the possibility of getting long COVID if the fair is indoors. Want to retire from being an author? Contract long COVID.   
 
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Jeff Tanyard

Re: Paperback marketing nowadays
« Reply #10 on: December 02, 2024, 07:02:14 AM »
The dangers in book fairs are: a long drive, a hotel room, meal cost, high table cost, large number of competing participating authors, time at the table (and who is there to watch it while you take a bathroom break?), and lost writing time. Not to mention the possibility of getting long COVID if the fair is indoors. Want to retire from being an author? Contract long COVID.


Even before Covid, "con crud" was a thing.  It killed Jerry Pournelle.

If you--general you--decide to go to cons or fairs, then I recommend fortifying yourself with Vitamins C and D in the days prior to going.  Build up that immune system before sending it into battle.
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PJ Post

Re: Paperback marketing nowadays
« Reply #11 on: December 02, 2024, 07:07:44 AM »
The idea behind the 1000 True Fan thing is that - in the aggregate - they buy your stuff. The strategy assumes that not every single fan is going to buy every single product, but in the aggregate they do. And, of course, not buying everything in no way prevents them from being a fan. Their engagement also drives new fans to your work.

And the format has nothing to do with it. True Fans will buy paperbacks if they have a reason to. So, don't blame them for our poor messaging. True Fans want to support you - they don't need traditional marketing.

If you don't have enough true fans, then the question becomes why not? Is it the product? Genre? Scheduling? The branding? The messaging? The follow-thru? What's wrong?

I get frustrate about the constant pushback on this subject because it is such a no-brainer. It has always worked. It's a primary tenet of modern business theory, the very first thing on the best practices list. Do a thing. Do it well. Do it a lot. Let people know about it.

The pushback reminds me of this Geico commercial:




The only downside to a branding approach is it takes focused work, we have to do the heavy lifting, the planning - all that non-writing businessy stuff - which doesn't always mesh well with Creative personalities.

But if you look along whatever major street you regularly drive down, every business you see has invested everything in their brand. This is why they're still in business. As we've discussed before, there are no exceptions to this rule - no debate - it's cold math, data and spreadsheets.

___

The sooner we start, the sooner it works.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2024, 07:40:01 AM by PJ Post »
 

Lorri Moulton

Re: Paperback marketing nowadays
« Reply #12 on: December 02, 2024, 07:26:55 AM »
I believe the original 1000 True Fans concept was to find 1000 people who would pay $100 a year.

So the pushback is not aimed at you, but at the concept.

Also, if it were so easy...why isn't everyone who actively (and successfully) engages in social media, interacts with fans, and has well-written, cover/blurb/marketing spot-on books...not making that money?

It's too easy to say they're not doing it right.  In reality there are SO MANY authors (and other artists) trying to do it, can all of them really continually engage those 1000 fans?  What about overlap?  Not all my fans are ONLY my fans. They enjoy many authors. Can they spend $100 a year on each of us?

While I like the concept, I think the reality may not always work that way.

ETA:  I'm not talking about me and my books.  I'm referring to some excellent authors who seem to be doing everything right, are consistent, stay in genre/niche, some are wide/some KU, and it's not a guarantee for them.

ALSO, for anyone writing closed-door books (romance or just romantic subplot) with less language and gore, there is a new group on Facebook...and they are going to do a paperback promo in 2025.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/1480991282588510
« Last Edit: December 02, 2024, 07:33:58 AM by Lorri Moulton »

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PJ Post

Re: Paperback marketing nowadays
« Reply #13 on: December 02, 2024, 08:11:59 AM »
I believe the original 1000 True Fans concept was to find 1000 people who would pay $100 a year.

That's not it. The idea is 1000 folks (plus or minus) love your work so much they want to support you as a Creative however they can. That's buying your stuff, Patreon, Substack, YouTube, Instagram and lots more. The 1000 number implies some minimum number of people necessary to provide a livable wage, but there's no limitation on how many fans you have. 1000 (plus or minus) is the foundation.


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So the pushback is not aimed at you, but at the concept.

Thanks. I'm not taking it personally. I'm really trying to help.   :tup3b


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Also, if it were so easy...why isn't everyone who actively (and successfully) engages in social media, interacts with fans, and has well-written, cover/blurb/marketing spot-on books...not making that money?

It's too easy to say they're not doing it right.

But that's the answer - they're not doing it right. Because what is easy is finding Creatives who are knocking it out of the park. And they're usually pretty open about how they're doing it. So, it's not a secret.

And making money really just means cubicle job income with benefits these days, not necessarily getting rich. Those days appear to be gone.


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In reality there are SO MANY authors (and other artists) trying to do it, can all of them really continually engage those 1000 fans?  What about overlap?  Not all my fans are ONLY my fans. They enjoy many authors. Can they spend $100 a year on each of us?

While I like the concept, I think the reality may not always work that way.

It does though. I love the Netflix Series Arcane. I think it's the best literature I've seen in ages. I talk about it (share) a lot, annoyingly so. I like other shows, but Arcane is non-fungible. I'm promoting Netflix, sure, but also League of Legends, as well as the animation studio and the actors involved. It's not zero sum.

And this is why branding depends on differentiation. We need to find our tiny little niche that loves what we're doing - our tribe. And if we do, they'll make us a priority.

Remember, there are lots for ways for Creatives to earn revenue.


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ETA:  I'm not talking about me and my books.  I'm referring to some excellent authors who seem to be doing everything right, are consistent, stay in genre/niche, some are wide/some KU, and it's not a guarantee for them.

I can't say I know many writers embracing this strategy, though there must be some. A 'strong' YouTube presence is a good indicator. But, again, it takes time. Some may be about to turn a corner, others may already be doing better than we think. The broader strategy is a one-size-fits-all approach, the execution, on the other hand, is extremely Creative-centric. There's no guarantee even with a good strategy - we still have to do the work.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2024, 08:21:57 AM by PJ Post »
 

cecilia_writer

Re: Paperback marketing nowadays
« Reply #14 on: December 02, 2024, 07:28:22 PM »
I sold several paperbacks that had a local setting at a Christmas fair last December - I had a table with 3 writer friends, one of whom had brought a tin of chocolates to give her a pretext for stopping people on their way past and engaging them in conversation.
The wife of one of my nephews likes to read paperbacks, as does her mother, and they buy all my books after I gifted one or two to others in the family, and her father likes to read the ebooks, so that's the kind of scenario that makes me persist with the paperbacks.
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alhawke

Re: Paperback marketing nowadays
« Reply #15 on: December 03, 2024, 01:49:43 AM »
The wife of one of my nephews likes to read paperbacks, as does her mother, and they buy all my books after I gifted one or two to others in the family, and her father likes to read the ebooks, so that's the kind of scenario that makes me persist with the paperbacks.
It's nice to have your book in your hand, for sure. I think I've nearly given away more paperbacks to friends than sold lately.

I also see quite a few writers sell signed copies online.?? :shrug

I had a promo last month. Saw only a small blip in paperback sales after selling many ebooks.

It must be difficult to market paperbacks in general as there are few promotion/marketing companies willing to run promotion sales on them. It's also difficult to discount and make, free or near free like 99c, like our ebooks due to cost of production.
 
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Bill Hiatt

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Re: Paperback marketing nowadays
« Reply #16 on: December 03, 2024, 04:36:15 AM »
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As we've discussed before, there are no exceptions to this rule - no debate - it's cold math, data and spreadsheets.
And yet
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I can't say I know many writers embracing this strategy, though there must be some.
It's hard to use cold math when you have no actual data. That there are authors using the ideas you're talking about is certainly true. But how successful are they? And how numerous (to avoid the possibility that someone's success is a fluke unrelated to the strategies we're talking about)? We don't know.
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But that's the answer - they're not doing it right. Because what is easy is finding Creatives who are knocking it out of the park. And they're usually pretty open about how they're doing it. So, it's not a secret.
Well, if it's not a secret, and if these authors support your position, it ought to be possible to cite examples, yes? But you aren't. I've seen interviews with successful creatives. Their formula certainly has considerable overlap with your suggestions. That's not surprising. Doing something well, doing it a lot, and letting people know about it really are no brainers. How we let them know is a little more complicated. But in some areas (branding requires writing in only one genre, and the True Fans stuff about true fans being willing to buy anything from you) I haven't run across people advocating that yet.

In the past, you've argued that we know these things are true because they work in other businesses. Fair enough. But how does that really apply to the True Fans concept?

I know a lot of people who are very enthusiastic about certain restaurants. But do they buy everything on the menu just because that restaurant serves it? No, they don't. Their choices are based on what kinds of food they like and on the prices. So if a restaurant true fan doesn't buy everything, why would a literary true fan buy everything an author is offering?

There are some creative areas in which true fans do seem to buy more merch. But it may be that bands and franchises (movies and TV) buy merch because the audiovisual component creates a different kind of emotional connection. Think about the difference between a live band concert and an author's public reading. And if you go walking in an area without a lot of pedestrian traffic, what's the ratio of people wearing something connected to a band or an entertainment fandom to people wearing something connected to a book or an author? I've seen a few literary T-shirts in college environments or in photos from conventions of organizations like the National Council of Teachers of English. Anywhere else, I hardly ever see them. (Yes, Harry Potter stuff is an exception, but that has movie and other ties to help propel it, and in that case, we're not talking about a small cadre of True Fans of a small niche but about millions with some interest in a somewhat bigger niche.)

That's not to say there's no market for paperbacks or even fancy editions and merch. Obviously, some people make that work. But there are certainly avid literary fans who buy ebooks (because of budget or space considerations) but aren't going to be buying paperbacks or special editions. I know a lot of avid readers. A few of them have classic author merch. Many of them prefer paper to ebooks and have enough budget to support that preference. None of them have contemporary author merch.

I think the if-people-can't-make-this-work-they-aren't-doing-it-right idea is a convenient way of dismissing counter examples--but is it always an accurate perception? To me, it's uncomfortably similar to arguments I've heard about faith healing--if you weren't healed, you just don't have enough faith.   





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PJ Post

Re: Paperback marketing nowadays
« Reply #17 on: December 05, 2024, 11:31:01 PM »
https://www.brandmagnet.co.uk/post/what-are-the-5-cs-of-branding

https://www.shopify.com/blog/niche-markets







He's not a traditional business guy, so his terminology can be a little confusing - try to focus on the concepts. And to avoid confirmation bias skewing things, please watch thru to the end. Also - I would recommend ignoring the clickbait titles because his definitions can be pretty nuanced. For example, he differentiates between a Personal Brand (internet persona such an influencer) and regular Business Branding.

They're long-ish, but worth the time.
 

Hopscotch

Re: Paperback marketing nowadays
« Reply #18 on: December 06, 2024, 02:49:35 AM »
...you've argued that we know these things are true because they work in other businesses. Fair enough. But how does that really apply to the True Fans concept?

Reminds me of a great TV commercial from early '60s in which a fellow points to his American car and says, "This is a great car - I've owned ten of these," while the Volvo owner w/whom he's arguing stifles a laugh.  I, too, am not convinced of the transferability of True Fandom to books - show me the stats, please, I'd really like to be convinced.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2024, 02:53:16 AM by Hopscotch »
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PJ Post

Re: Paperback marketing nowadays
« Reply #19 on: December 06, 2024, 03:56:50 AM »
...show me the stats...


Business theory applies to all businesses.
Publishing is a business.
Therefore, business theory applies to publishing.



I've never understood why writers think they're special, why they think the rules don't apply. Books are a product just like washing detergent or Bluetooth speakers or Coach handbags.

The 1000 True Fan idea is based on good old brand loyalty - a super old business concept.

https://www.forbes.com/councils/forbescommunicationscouncil/2022/10/25/the-importance-of-brand-loyalty-to-commodity-product-or-service-businesses/

Secondly, the idea is simply saying that given the reach of the internet, we don't have to hit it 'big' or go 'viral' anymore to be successful, which means we don't need corporate support. We can earn regular 'job' income following our passion because a small number of fans (your tribe) will happily support us. That's it. The proof is in the fact that Patreon still exists.

___

If you really want to understand, check out the links I posted above.
 

Lorri Moulton

Re: Paperback marketing nowadays
« Reply #20 on: December 06, 2024, 04:20:03 AM »
Yes, except there aren't MILLIONS of detergents vying for visibility.  This business is not like most others.  It's actually very different in that there are little to no barriers to entry, relatively low start-up costs (none if you DIY and already have a computer), and we don't pay upfront for the ability to reach our customers. 

The platforms will publish and sell our books with ZERO costs paid out of pocket (to them).  Of course, if we want to advertise, there's that...but they'll all put our ebooks on their platforms and take a percentage of the sale.

Not many other businesses will do that, and it's why it's so difficult to get our stories noticed.  But to publish is easy, so it really is one of the most democratic/easy access businesses I've ever come across.

This means (IMHO) many business practices do NOT apply for us the same way as other businesses.  And now that AI can do it...how many more will be out there?

Part of me is impressed that such an opportunity exists.  It's one of the most egalitarian industries I've ever seen.  Yes, there is the money we can spend on all the "things" but we don't HAVE TO do it to publish.  Truly amazing when you think about it.

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PJ Post

Re: Paperback marketing nowadays
« Reply #21 on: December 06, 2024, 05:03:23 AM »
Yes, except there aren't MILLIONS of detergents vying for visibility.  This business is not like most others.  It's actually very different in that there are little to no barriers to entry, relatively low start-up costs (none if you DIY and already have a computer), and we don't pay upfront for the ability to reach our customers.

Yep, it's an uphill battle for everyone publishing disposable fiction because there's no brand loyalty, just noise. It's all luck and AMS and goat sacrifices. And yeah, I think AI is going to eliminate this market in the coming year or so.

But the True Fan strategy is for non-fungible Creatives. It doesn't matter if there are a million other books because there is only one of you - your brand - and that's all that matters to your tribe.

We have to stop trying to cut through the noise and start building an audience. It takes time, to be sure. And it's a lot of work. But if the book/product is of reasonable quality AND is unique enough for brand messaging - then that writer has a very good chance of succeeding - in time.


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This means (IMHO) many business practices do NOT apply for us the same way as other businesses.

But they do. Over the last couple of years I've posted tons of links to expert opinions saying the same thing.

Maybe, instead of looking for all of the ways that I'm wrong, all of the ways that business theory doesn't apply and all of the ways that make writers so special - look for the business stuff that does apply and build from there, like the 4Ps of Marketing.
 

alhawke

Re: Paperback marketing nowadays
« Reply #22 on: December 06, 2024, 05:06:19 AM »
Seems there are two differing viewpoints on defining the "1000 fan theory". One is literally getting a 1000 fans buying any product you release. I heard that one when I first read Write Publish and Repeat book before starting publishing. What a great achievement if one gets that. And who of us doesn't want that? A 1000 sales with every release would make you, probably, hit the top 100 on Amazon every release. Don't know many writers achieving that.

The other is a 1000 fans that look at your stuff and consider buying. The latter is, unfortunately, the most common.

Which leads me back to the thread. Many many Indie readers who are true fans do not buy your paperbacks. They buy ebooks or audiobooks. Hence the reason to start this.

I don't have a 1000 fans buying my stuff. I do have hundreds who grab freebies that I can track when I run promos. Those are fans. A 1000 fans, possibly? It gets me visibility but not the $ I would love to really thrive with in the biz. So this marketing theory is great but not leading to anything new to try or work with, imo.

Maybe, instead of looking for all of the ways that I'm wrong, all of the ways that business theory doesn't apply and all of the ways that make writers so special - look for the business stuff that does apply and build from there, like the 4Ps of Marketing.
I don't think anyone is saying you're wrong. We're frustrated because we're largely doing what you're suggesting and nothing different is happening. You're not talking to a bunch of newbies in the business. Many of us have tried most of your marketing ideas.
 
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Lorri Moulton

Re: Paperback marketing nowadays
« Reply #23 on: December 06, 2024, 05:16:43 AM »
In theory, it sounds great.

In practice, I think we all need to see some real-life examples.

I'm not saying it can't work.  I'm not saying it doesn't work.  What I'm saying is...where's the data? Authors who make money with the 1000 True Fans approach WITHOUT the paid advertising?

ETA:  By money, I mean the $100 x 1000 fans in the original concept. 

Authors who started a while ago, have large newsletters, and write quickly might be doing it.  And authors who work with others and promote their books together might be doing it.  From what I'm reading in groups (data but a narrow slice of data), many of them are still paying for advertising.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2024, 05:20:50 AM by Lorri Moulton »

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PJ Post

Re: Paperback marketing nowadays
« Reply #24 on: December 06, 2024, 05:50:56 AM »
Seems there are two differing viewpoints on defining the "1000 fan theory". One is literally getting a 1000 fans buying any product you release. I heard that one when I first read Write Publish and Repeat book before starting publishing. What a great achievement if one gets that. And who of us doesn't want that? A 1000 sales with every release would make you, probably, hit the top 100 on Amazon every release. Don't know many writers achieving that.

At the end of the day, the 1000 True Fan thing is a strategy based upon developing brand loyalty. The 1000 number is irrelevant to the concept. As I said upthread, it describes the process of building a core audience that will support you and your Art. That's it. Over time that audience will grow to some minimum level that will provide a livable income - whatever that means to each of us.


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The other is a 1000 fans that look at your stuff and consider buying. The latter is, unfortunately, the most common.

Which leads me back to the thread. Many many Indie readers who are true fans do not buy your paperbacks. They buy ebooks or audiobooks. Hence the reason to start this.

What reason have you given your core audience to buy your paperbacks? What messaging are you using? What is the value proposition for them?

For now, the rest of the reading world is irrelevant. The only thing that matters are your fans. How many you have doesn't matter for now - you'll have more.


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I do have hundreds who grab freebies that I can track when I run promos. Those are fans.

Are they? Or are they avid readers who appreciate your books, especially when they're free. Avid readers are not the same thing as True Fans.

For example, I love music, but there are lots of musicians I would never see even if you gave me the tickets. But there are a select few who I've seen over and over and over. Have t-shirts. Albums. Cassettes. Records. Posters. I watch and follow on them social media.

So, from a business perspective, what's the relationship between those two groups of musicians and my money?


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So this marketing theory is great but not leading to anything new to try or work with, imo.

To be fair, most of what I'm talking about goes back to the late 70s. But the execution, the tactics, including the use of social media are new.

So, did you read the links and watch the videos?


Quote
We're frustrated because we're largely doing what you're suggesting and nothing different is happening. You're not talking to a bunch of newbies in the business. Many of us have tried most of your marketing ideas.

The pushback makes it sound like we're talking about completely different things.

___

In theory, it sounds great.

In practice, I think we all need to see some real-life examples.

As we've discussed, we don't have any self-publishing examples.

Do other Creatives count?


Quote
Authors who make money with the 1000 True Fans approach WITHOUT the paid advertising?

Whoever said we should stop paid advertising?

Yes, we want to create a strategy that pulls the customer through the distribution channel, we want to build a destination brand, but I'm on record saying that we should use every tool at our disposable, with the caveat that we want to avoid burning out.


Quote
ETA:  By money, I mean the $100 x 1000 fans in the original concept.

Again, the 1000 fans at a $100 rate was to illustrate the concept, not hard and fast numbers. 


Quote
Authors who started a while ago, have large newsletters, and write quickly might be doing it.  And authors who work with others and promote their books together might be doing it.  From what I'm reading in groups (data but a narrow slice of data), many of them are still paying for advertising.

I'm for whatever works. My recommendation here is to reduce dependence and take control of our careers.

So, did you read the links and watch the videos?

___

It takes money...

On the other hand, my recommended strategy is free.

So, did you read the links and watch the videos?
 

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Re: Paperback marketing nowadays
« Reply #25 on: December 06, 2024, 07:53:01 AM »
Quote
So, did you read the links and watch the videos?

I read the links and watched the first video. I'll start with the video.

The presenter is very articulate and intelligent. But there are some problems with using him to support your position.

First, he's not an impartial source. To be clear, I don't think that he's a scammer or anything like that. But his videos are an intermediate step in the very process he's describing in the video, in which people gradually move up a ladder toward things that are more and more profitable to him. So while I believe what he says, in general, I value sources of information more if their profit isn't tied to the view of reality that they're supporting. I had a lot of experience in education with people arguing for approaches when they sold products that only someone who used the approach would be interested in. Their information was never as accurate as that presented by more disinterested sources. Again, that's not to say I don't believe this guy, but I would value the testimony of someone not profiting from the approach more.

Second, (and far more important), his approach is geared to nonfiction. This is clear from his use of language. He talks about teaching and helping people. He talks about progression from short-form content to longer forms, like guides and courses.

While there are some similarities between marketing nonfiction and marketing fiction, there are also some fundamental differences. One of the most obvious is that the value proposition is easier to prove, particularly for his kind of content. Watch his videos, be inspired to buy his coursework, and you'll make several times as much money--if you're writing nonfiction. From what I've seen, I would recommend his material to a writer selling income-boosting nonfiction. But it's questionable whether the same approach would transfer to fiction.

Consider the content hierarchy he uses. Well, you could use teasers from your work as the short-form content. You could use short stories as the medium form content for potential fans (like we do with reader magnets). But then what? At the top level, you're not selling guides or courses. You're selling novels. People hopefully enjoy your novels--but they don't make money from them.

Consider the differences on Substack. Celebrities aside, who's earning those hundreds of paid subscribers check marks? Mostly, it's people explaining how to make money on Substack, how to write more effectively, how to sell books more effectively--in other words, income-boosting nonfiction. Sometimes, the strategies are more general, but often they are designed to help people make money, not just with writing in general, but with the type of writing that they do themselves. And I've already spotted examples where people are pitching strategies that haven't worked for fiction in at least five years--but they still work for income-boosting nonfiction. That's because it's a different creature. There are some strategies that work for both, but that's far from all of them.

So when he talks about how he uses social media successfully, keep in mind that he has a different value proposition going.

I could say more, but I think you get the point. His system--and the anecdotes supporting it, are based on a different kind of writing than what many of us do.

As far as the two articles go, the first one doesn't really touch on our points of disagreement. Consistency is important, but the article doesn't say what that means for authors. Does it mean you must right only in the same genre? Not necessarily. Consistency in quality, in the feelings the material evokes, etc. might well be enough. Sure, some readers won't read every single thing we write because the may like some genres more than others. But we shouldn't assume they're such complete dumbasses that they can't tell the difference between genres and will feel betrayed when their favorite fantasy writer cranks out some science fiction. Some will skip it, but other readers will also be pulled in who would never have discovered you otherwise.

As far as the second article is concerned, it describes niches really well, but again, what's a niche for an author. If we write a science fiction, does that mean that all of our books must not only be science fiction but must also be set on Mars. Will readers feel betrayed if one is set on Venus? You see where I'm going. How narrow a niche needs to be can well be questioned. The examples given are generally pretty narrow. Ergonomic chairs for gamers is a good example. But there's a big difference between utilitarian products and creative ones. Ergononic chairs have a specific function, and it may make sense to buy from some who focuses entirely on that. But the gamers using those chairs may play different kinds of games. Individual gamers may play different kinds of games. They have functional requirements for their equipment, but that doesn't mean they have the same narrow focus on the content they play.   


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Lorri Moulton

Re: Paperback marketing nowadays
« Reply #26 on: December 06, 2024, 08:31:47 AM »
In theory, it sounds great.

In practice, I think we all need to see some real-life examples.

As we've discussed, we don't have any self-publishing examples.

Do other Creatives count?

I must have missed this because I thought we were talking about self-publishing examples this entire time.  And no, other creatives don't count IMHO within this comparison.

If there is NO evidence to support this theory (as it applies to self-publishing and fictional stories) then it remains a theory.

With some data and more examples of how this works with our industry, I think it would be helpful. 

ETA: I'd like this to work.  I think the concept could be promising.  And maybe it's working right now for a lot of authors.  I'd just like some actual numbers to back it up.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2024, 08:36:02 AM by Lorri Moulton »

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TimothyEllis

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Re: Paperback marketing nowadays
« Reply #27 on: December 06, 2024, 02:16:11 PM »
In theory, it sounds great.

In practice, I think we all need to see some real-life examples.

I'm not saying it can't work.  I'm not saying it doesn't work.  What I'm saying is...where's the data? Authors who make money with the 1000 True Fans approach WITHOUT the paid advertising?

ETA:  By money, I mean the $100 x 1000 fans in the original concept. 

Authors who started a while ago, have large newsletters, and write quickly might be doing it.  And authors who work with others and promote their books together might be doing it.  From what I'm reading in groups (data but a narrow slice of data), many of them are still paying for advertising.

I guess I fall into this. I have a 1000 mailing list which took 10 years to build and doesn't have many people expecting freebies on it. Of those, I get about 200 pre-orders, 20 sales on day 1-2, and about another 200 full reads into day 2. That gets me near 1000 in the US store, and top 10 in some of my categories, and can get me to #3. On UK store, it's about 2000, but I regularly get #2's and sometimes a #1 or two. In the AUS store I regularly get 800, but infrequently get better than #5's.

I don't do any advertising at all. Announcements on Facebook, mail out on the day, post on Substack (where I've only just started), post on Quora (where I have 12k followers), New release announcement on BB (72 followers).

I release monthly, but this year has been exceptional for productivity, and it's going to come out at 16 novels and just over a million published words for 2024. My best result yet.

My core fans is small, but they pre-order and read on day 1, and they give me enough visibility so I'm on top 100 charts for about 50% of the year. That's getting worse though, as while it used to be you'd stay on the chart for 3 weeks, now it's only 2.

I'm down on what I was earning with the last series. Series 11 was getting 300 pre-orders, and feeding back into my first series much better than the current one is.

But even though things have been slowly sliding this year in money terms, I'm still living the dream as far as comfortable income goes. I don't have any debt, and I'm building a nest egg for when the writing stops or slows down.

The thing is though, I got on the second wave back in 2015 when KU v2 started, and I never got off it. I did AMS when it worked, and then chucked it. I gave away 14k of my first novel. In 2018 I hit #97 in the US store with a book 2, and #1ed all my categories.

But I've not done any promotions now since 2019, when AMS turned into gambling.

I got on the wave at the right time, managed to stay on it more or less, hit it out of the park twice, and that built me enough fans to keep riding the wave now.

A lot of luck, but also steady quality releases which keep the fans happy.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2024, 02:21:37 PM by TimothyEllis »
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writeway

Re: Paperback marketing nowadays
« Reply #28 on: December 06, 2024, 03:25:21 PM »
I don't bother marketing paperbacks because in my niche there doesn't seem to be enough people who are interested in print these days, and I prefer to spend time on something I see a benefit from. I do make a little money from them each month. I publish mine through Draft2Digital. But, personally, I don't bother promoting them but here are some things I've seen authors do:

1. Goodreads Giveaway- Authors often run these with print books. You'll be in charge of mailing the books to the winners I believe. Doing a GR giveaway can get attention on your books but you gotta weigh whether it's worth the time.

2. Book Signings and Events- If you really wanna sell print you need to do these because the only indie authors I see selling print well (outside of those who have trade print-only deals), do in-person events. That's going to be your best bet. Set up a signing with a bookstore, library or some other event. You can sign on to do an event with other authors.

3. TikTok Store- I'm not on TT but many indie authors claim to be selling print well through their TikTok stores.

4. Sell Direct- Sell off of your website or a site like Payhip.

5. Book Boxes- Do one of those book box things where you send influencers books, etc. It's big in the romance genre.

6. Take advantage of the holidays and run some discounts for your print books and spread the word through social media or use a promoter.


You can run click ads to promote print books the same as you do ebooks. Some authors run Amazon ads for print books.

Good luck!

« Last Edit: December 06, 2024, 03:28:32 PM by writeway »
 
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writeway

Re: Paperback marketing nowadays
« Reply #29 on: December 06, 2024, 03:33:48 PM »
Sorry, but all the anecdotal evidence I have is that hand selling at fairs produces the most paperback fiction sales, unless you are an author with the kind of following that wants a fancy edition and autographing. At this time of year, perhaps ads pushing the paperbacks as gifts might move some.

This. The average author isn't going to sell many paperbacks sitting behind a keyboard and for most of us it's just not worth the time to do more for them. Print is a different animal and promoted differently, which is why the trade publishers still own that market and always will. It's still true that if you're not in a bookstore it's almost impossible to get significant print sales. Print readers still buy mostly at brick-and-morter stores which most indies are not in.
 

writeway

Re: Paperback marketing nowadays
« Reply #30 on: December 06, 2024, 03:37:19 PM »
Paperback marketing is tricky because paperback buyers tend to be much more likely to prefer trad books to indie ones, at least in my experience. Advertising the book in other ways will probably cause a small number of paperback sales if someone comes along who is open to indie but prefers paperback. Most of my paperback sales are in my two titles that are closest to lit fic (because the lit fic crowd also seems to be more paper-oriented).

Last month, I did try including the paperbacks in one of my AMS ads (the one with the two lit ficish books). I saw a small increase, and the ACOS improved--but it still wasn't yielding a positive ROI, so I can't really recommend it.

Great point! Yes, print-buyers buy from trade publishers mainly and only seem to buy paperbacks from indies if they are already familiar with the author. I doubt there are many readers browsing for indie print books. They'll buy audiobooks and ebooks from indies but most print readers stick with the big publishers and don't look elsewhere.
 

alhawke

Re: Paperback marketing nowadays
« Reply #31 on: December 06, 2024, 05:28:57 PM »
But, personally, I don't bother promoting them but here are some things I've seen authors do.
That's was a great list. Thanks for all your ideas!
 

Hopscotch

Re: Paperback marketing nowadays
« Reply #32 on: December 06, 2024, 10:12:54 PM »
But, personally, I don't bother promoting them but here are some things I've seen authors do.
That's was a great list. Thanks for all your ideas!

Might be worth considering that the first few items on the list really boil down to self-entertainment - fun to do, perhaps, but small chance of selling a vast # of books or of getting your brand widely broadcast.  I know a couple of massive paperback sellers who, even at their sales level, gave up on book signings and other events (funded cross-country by their trad houses) bc the writers considered the time drain not worth the small sales boost.  They do the last items on the list from the more efficient comfort of their laptops.  As for Tik-Tok, they pray to Oprah, instead.
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Bill Hiatt

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Re: Paperback marketing nowadays
« Reply #33 on: December 07, 2024, 12:17:57 AM »
Interesting list!

Years ago, I would have recommended Goodreads giveaways as a way of getting reviews. I'd give away ten paperbacks and get at least three. A 30% return is pretty good. Then Amazon made Goodreads giveaways much more expensive. Sigh!

I can't visualize getting a huge number of people out for a book signing. But that's partly because I don't really advertise myself in my local community. Only neighbors I chat with have any clue that I'm a writer. (And one of them is also a writer, who has spent years looking for an agent. Sigh!)

Maybe we need a thread about TikTok. I've heard it tends to work much better for some genres than others and that the demographic skews pretty young (sort of like Wattpad). But maybe that isn't true? It might be nice to find out.

Selling direct would require more traffic to my website. People who have a decent flow seem to do okay with that. There are movements on Substack to try to set up bookstores there. I have more traffic there than on my own site, so that might be worth considering. (Artists are also started to sell art prints from there.)



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alhawke

Re: Paperback marketing nowadays
« Reply #34 on: December 07, 2024, 02:09:55 AM »
How do you discount paperbacks? Do you re-price so that your royalty is down to zero and advertise that? I'm curious because paperback pricing tends to be largely out of our control. At least, with Ingram, the pricing comes down due to price matching anyway.
 

Bill Hiatt

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Re: Paperback marketing nowadays
« Reply #35 on: December 07, 2024, 03:32:26 AM »
It could be more complicated than that if you use Amazon's expanded distribution the way I do. Virtually all my paperback sales are on Amazon, anyway. I tend to think of offering them elsewhere as more a service to my readers than anything else. I make a decent royalty on Amazon but little in the other distribution channels. But here's the relevant point. Amazon won't let you sell books at a loss, so the pittance I make at other outlets is the most I could cut my prices.

If someone has a paperback that has gotten some sales and might lean in the more lit-ficish direction that appeals more to the paperback crowd, my only AMS ad currently with a positive ROI is one in which I advertise both ebook and paper. The targeting is very narrow, so there aren't a huge number of clicks. But there's a good conversion rate, and at least half the sales so far over an admittedly short period have been paperbacks. That may be a special case, however.


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writeway

Re: Paperback marketing nowadays
« Reply #36 on: December 07, 2024, 04:00:12 AM »
But, personally, I don't bother promoting them but here are some things I've seen authors do.
That's was a great list. Thanks for all your ideas!

You're welcome!
 

The Bass Bagwhan

Re: Paperback marketing nowadays
« Reply #37 on: December 10, 2024, 08:35:06 PM »
To digress from most of this discussion, I can format my own paperbacks and create the covers, so to publish paperback versions only costs me time and effort.
I didn't bother for ages but did get a lot of queries whether certain titles were available in paperback, so I made the effort.

Bottom line, I've never marketed them as such. I see paperbacks as a convenience for those who prefer that format. But if I had to spend money to do it, and those costs were significant and difficult to earn back, I'd think differently.
 
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Bill Hiatt

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Re: Paperback marketing nowadays
« Reply #38 on: December 11, 2024, 12:28:31 AM »
I agree. If I had to spend big bucks creating a paperback, I wouldn't do it. Vellum makes it easy to do (as, I suppose, do the PC equivalents).

So far, advertising paperbacks as part of my AMS advertising on selected books seems to have moved some AND improved ROI. However, I am having a very odd couple of months for sales.


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PJ Post

Re: Paperback marketing nowadays
« Reply #39 on: December 13, 2024, 09:19:41 AM »
Got my threads mixed up so...oops!   grint

___

I think the problem with paperback sales stems from asking the wrong question. It's not how can we sell more, it's why do people want them in the first place? Once upon a time I'd buy them in drug stores. They were everywhere as a matter of convenience. We had no other choice. But now they are an alternative reading option largely for an older demographic. Why? Is it nostalgia? They keep them? There's a reason readers select a physical thing over a virtual thing.

Figure this out and you'll be able to sell more paperbacks because you'll be able to target your messaging. And we can't go by traditional publishing because they have a completely different distribution channel that we do not have access to - like airports. Indies are not Random House.

The old self-publishing business models will continue to fail. We need to understand how the game has changed because it has. And then we need to get back to work, persevere and hope for some luck.
 

Hopscotch

Re: Paperback marketing nowadays
« Reply #40 on: December 13, 2024, 12:00:23 PM »
I think the problem with paperback sales stems from asking the wrong question. It's not how can we sell more, it's why do people want them in the first place?

Lots of readers prefer print books to ebooks bc the text is more easily accessible - flipping pages beats fiddling w/a screen and it's more fun, espec for the chance discovery of some new interesting text.  The question ought to be:  why don't indies routinely publish paper alongside their ebooks to expand their market reach?     
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LilyBLily

Re: Paperback marketing nowadays
« Reply #41 on: December 13, 2024, 12:22:55 PM »
I know people who prefer a printed book, but at the same time like audiobooks. So I can't say it's a sheer dislike of technology but more a sense of what is convenient (an audiobook while driving or doing chores) or relaxing (reading in bed) that dictates their choice of edition.
 

The Bass Bagwhan

Re: Paperback marketing nowadays
« Reply #42 on: December 13, 2024, 04:57:29 PM »
I think the problem with paperback sales stems from asking the wrong question. It's not how can we sell more, it's why do people want them in the first place?

Lots of readers prefer print books to ebooks bc the text is more easily accessible - flipping pages beats fiddling w/a screen and it's more fun, espec for the chance discovery of some new interesting text.  The question ought to be:  why don't indies routinely publish paper alongside their ebooks to expand their market reach?     

Most likely because the steps for formatting a document and creating a paperback cover - if you're a DIY author - are a little daunting. But take your time, do it once, and it all makes sense.
 

cecilia_writer

Re: Paperback marketing nowadays
« Reply #43 on: December 13, 2024, 06:11:34 PM »
I always create a paperback as part of the publishing process - once you've done the formatting a couple of times it isn't too hard, and I use Cover Creator in KDP to make the cover, with my ebook cover as the front and blurb etc on the back in the template. I don't sell a lot of them but some people don'tread ebooks and occasionally I give people paperbacks if I think they'll enjoy them - have just ordered a copy of one for the friend who inadvertently gave me the idea for writing it.
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PJ Post

Re: Paperback marketing nowadays
« Reply #44 on: December 16, 2024, 01:15:43 AM »
Is it better to give the customer a choice between print and digital as a matter of course, or to offer print as a non-fungible special event?
 

Lorri Moulton

Re: Paperback marketing nowadays
« Reply #45 on: December 16, 2024, 04:56:08 AM »
It probably depends on the marketing plan.  If the plan is to sell physical books with lots of bells and whistles (embossed leather, dust covers, printed edges, etc.) then save those for the special campaigns.

If the plan is to sell basic paperbacks and/or hardcovers, we can go directly to sales or start with a campaign, then go to retailers.

I've seen a lot of amazing campaigns on Kickstarter and BackerKit.  Mine are pretty basic, but there are some lovely books that can be produced.  It takes money (and even then a large order is more cost effective) but there are alternatives out there.

Just remember, there are challenges such as whether to send books outside of the US...and there are a lot of new regulations, not to mention proof of delivery.  There's a reason people are writing books about the process, but it helps to know if this is going to be a profit generating campaign or more about visibility.  I've seen some amazing campaigns that ended up making very little profit and some basic ones that had a good ROI.

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writeway

Re: Paperback marketing nowadays
« Reply #46 on: December 16, 2024, 08:10:18 AM »
I know people who prefer a printed book, but at the same time like audiobooks. So I can't say it's a sheer dislike of technology but more a sense of what is convenient (an audiobook while driving or doing chores) or relaxing (reading in bed) that dictates their choice of edition.

I hate audiobooks. lol. I don't know why but I just can't get into them. It just feels so weird to "listen" to a book and I find that my attention span wonders more when trying to listen to an audiobook than just reading. I love listening to music but for some reason listening to literature just isn't for me. I think for me, the narrator runs the book. See, when you read you imagine the person telling the story, and if the narrator sounds different from who you imagined, or if they have the wrong voice then it takes you out of the story. I remember one time I tried to listen to a book and the narrator was some old stuffy British dude who sounded like actor John Hurt (RIP). The narrator ruined it for me. No offense to Brits. I LOVE the British accent, it's my favorite, and British men are the sexiest in the world but this narrator wasn't cutting it. The book was a romantic thriller and he made me feel like I was back in high school forced to read Shakespeare for class. LOL!
« Last Edit: December 16, 2024, 08:16:39 AM by writeway »
 

LilyBLily

Re: Paperback marketing nowadays
« Reply #47 on: December 16, 2024, 12:55:55 PM »
I hate audiobooks, too, as a reader.

As for creating them, everything about producing them, whether live narration or AI, is tedious for the author. Checking on and fixing pronunciation and adding dialogue tags on AI audiobooks is a drag, and I would find auditioning and then checking on the work of a live narrator equally annoying--plus there's someone else's ego to consider. Count me out.

Mary Kingswood gives free novellas to her newsletter readers and publishes the novellas eventually in paperback only. I've mentioned that before and I like that idea and have done the same. The freebie ebook version can be given away in numerous promos without having to worry about changing pricing.
 

Lorri Moulton

Re: Paperback marketing nowadays
« Reply #48 on: December 16, 2024, 01:05:15 PM »
I love audiobooks...mainly my own. LOL 

I've been very fortunate to work with some wonderful narrators, and it's fun to listen to someone else bring the stories to life. 

ETA: Real people/royalty share on Amazon.  I don't care for AI narration (everyone do you, just my preference) and I couldn't afford to pay upfront, so this is a good compromise.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2024, 01:16:43 PM by Lorri Moulton »

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alhawke

Re: Paperback marketing nowadays
« Reply #49 on: December 16, 2024, 03:01:29 PM »
For me, I really love creating audiobooks. Yes there's work, but hearing your story performed is really pretty awesome.

I think audio is the closest we get to movies in entertainment--unless some of you have done film.

As a listener, audiobooks take time to get into. But for me, that's usually the same with books.