Author Topic: Bullet list justified text looking odd  (Read 634 times)

Jan Hurst-Nicholson

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Bullet list justified text looking odd
« on: July 06, 2024, 12:40:48 AM »
Finally got a print copy of my book after having it sent to the UK and brought to SA by a friend who was on holiday there.  :)

I have a lot of bullet points for checklists. I have justified the text but after seeing the print copy I now realise that the first words of each sentence don't line up. I must admit  that I didn't notice at first until there was a big difference between two sentences. Is there a way to make the first words line up but still justify? Or does it really matter? I will be having POD copies printed in SA so if I can correct it before printing that would be helpful.
(Had to take a pic of the page as the text automatically corrects when pasting it here :icon_rolleyes:)
Thanks in advance.



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TimothyEllis

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Re: Bullet list justified text looking odd
« Reply #1 on: July 06, 2024, 12:46:06 AM »
I've no answer to that really.

I hit formatting problems in one of my early non-fiction books, and ended mocking it up how I wanted it to look, taking an image of it, and inserting the image. Hi res for the paperback, and low res for the eBook.

It was a lot of extra work, but it solved the formatting issues.
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Jan Hurst-Nicholson

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Re: Bullet list justified text looking odd
« Reply #2 on: July 06, 2024, 01:02:20 AM »
I've no answer to that really.

I hit formatting problems in one of my early non-fiction books, and ended mocking it up how I wanted it to look, taking an image of it, and inserting the image. Hi res for the paperback, and low res for the eBook.

It was a lot of extra work, but it solved the formatting issues.

I'll have to consult with the printer as they might have the answer. I can see me trying to do it and messing up the rest of it  :icon_rolleyes:

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Re: Bullet list justified text looking odd
« Reply #3 on: July 06, 2024, 03:09:21 AM »
Did you use defined tabs to set the spacing or actual spaces?  If the latter, that will almost always cause problems.
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Jan Hurst-Nicholson

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Re: Bullet list justified text looking odd
« Reply #4 on: July 06, 2024, 04:23:27 AM »
Did you use defined tabs to set the spacing or actual spaces?  If the latter, that will almost always cause problems.

Not very clued up so probably used actual spaces  :icon_rolleyes:

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Bill Hiatt

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Re: Bullet list justified text looking odd
« Reply #5 on: July 06, 2024, 05:21:56 AM »
Most word processors can make bulleted lists with uniform spacing automatically. A Post-Crisis D suggests, you also define tabs to force the text into that pattern, though that's a little more work.

Just for the sake of anyone else reading this, that's also why you define styles to control paragraph tabs. Spacing to create paragraph indents causes the same problem.


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Jan Hurst-Nicholson

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Re: Bullet list justified text looking odd
« Reply #6 on: July 06, 2024, 09:27:36 PM »
Most word processors can make bulleted lists with uniform spacing automatically. A Post-Crisis D suggests, you also define tabs to force the text into that pattern, though that's a little more work.

Just for the sake of anyone else reading this, that's also why you define styles to control paragraph tabs. Spacing to create paragraph indents causes the same problem.

Thanks. I never learned how to use headings or styles and originally formatted everything manually. It then became a mission to go back and try to add styles so I just carried on doing it manually  :icon_rolleyes:

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Re: Bullet list justified text looking odd
« Reply #7 on: July 07, 2024, 03:41:20 AM »
Yeah, it's hard to want to go back and fix things, particularly is there's a lot to fix. I find it's easier to set smaller goals and achieve them. "I will fix X in book Y" is easier than, "I will add styles to everything in every book."

Since your only problem right now appears to be those bulleted lists in one book, just fix those. Use styles going forward. Correct earlier stuff only as absolutely necessary.


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Re: Bullet list justified text looking odd
« Reply #8 on: July 07, 2024, 12:03:10 PM »
Thanks. I never learned how to use headings or styles and originally formatted everything manually. It then became a mission to go back and try to add styles so I just carried on doing it manually  :icon_rolleyes:

It's easy and it will save yourself a ton of time in the future.

It can be time-consuming to change from no styles to using styles because you'll have instances where you need to uncorrect things you did manually.  You may also come across things such as italics.  Styles may override any words you have previously italicized.  (Which is a good argument for using styles to begin with.)  When switching from not using styles to using styles, what I've done is highlighted paragraphs and watched as I scrolled and highlighted.  When I came across something that was italicized or bolded (rarely), I'd stop.  Then I'd switch the selected paragraphs to whatever style they needed to be set in.  Then, I would move to the paragraph with italics and keep track of what words were italicized.  Then, highlight that paragraph, select the style and go back and re-italize words if necessary.

I should note I use Pages not Word so Word may behave differently with regard to handling italics when switching styles.

But it is well worth the effort to learn how to use styles and use them.  I used to be like, why?  I didn't see the benefit.  But, I learned later how much of a benefit it is and wished I had learned and used them years earlier.


Correct earlier stuff only as absolutely necessary.

The problem with that, if you make additional corrections in the future, it can become hard to keep track of what had and hasn't been corrected, which can create additional work.  Better to do it right to save yourself more hassle in the future.

I know because past-me has really left of mess of stuff for present-me—then future-me—now.  :HB
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Re: Bullet list justified text looking odd
« Reply #9 on: July 07, 2024, 12:16:18 PM »
Out of curiosity, I had to see how Pages handled it.  This is formatted without styles and just using the bulleted list format:


I imagine Word must have something similar.
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Re: Bullet list justified text looking odd
« Reply #10 on: July 08, 2024, 05:30:54 AM »
Out of curiosity, I had to see how Pages handled it.  This is formatted without styles and just using the bulleted list format:


I imagine Word must have something similar.

Thanks.
Did you have the text on justified when you did the bulleted list? That is what is causing the problem. A lot of the book is in bullet points so I would have to do all those in left align. If I had untold wealth I would hand it over to a layout artist.  :icon_rolleyes: I'm seeing the printer this week to discuss the printing locally. I will ask for their advice, but might just leave it as it is in case I mess up the whole book as it mostly looks ok.

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Re: Bullet list justified text looking odd
« Reply #11 on: July 08, 2024, 07:26:55 AM »
Did you have the text on justified when you did the bulleted list? That is what is causing the problem.

No, but I just did another test and justification makes no difference.  That's because spaces aren't being used to align anything.  Using spaces to try to position things is what causes problems.
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Re: Bullet list justified text looking odd
« Reply #12 on: July 08, 2024, 06:53:09 PM »
Did you have the text on justified when you did the bulleted list? That is what is causing the problem.

No, but I just did another test and justification makes no difference.  That's because spaces aren't being used to align anything.  Using spaces to try to position things is what causes problems.

Ok. Thanks. Will have to get someone to sit beside me an explain it in plain vanilla steps  :icon_rolleyes:

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Bill Hiatt

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Re: Bullet list justified text looking odd
« Reply #13 on: July 09, 2024, 01:31:38 AM »
I could be wrong, but I think both Word and Pages apply some kind of default style to bulleted list items.

It is a problem, just as you suggest, to hit the spacebar to align things rather than using styles. I wouldn't have thought of justification as causing a problem, but perhaps in Jan's case, it did.

Jan, one possibility would be to select each bulleted list, change to left-justify and see what happens. If the output still looks quirky, try unapplying and then reapplying bulleted list mode.  That might not work, since we aren't 100% sure what caused the problem. Give it a try and see.

Oh, you can see what you might have done by making hidden characters visible. Added spaces will appear as dots in the middle of the line. Removing any between the bullet and the text may also solve the problem. Or it may demonstrate that you didn't add extra spaces in the first place, which at least eliminates a possibility.


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Re: Bullet list justified text looking odd
« Reply #14 on: July 09, 2024, 02:12:47 AM »
It is a problem, just as you suggest, to hit the spacebar to align things rather than using styles. I wouldn't have thought of justification as causing a problem, but perhaps in Jan's case, it did.

Justification adjusts the spacing to align the words left and right.  So, if spaces are used to position words, things won't align once justification is used.

And things can change from system to system even with the same file.  But, with tab stops or the default settings for bulleted lists in Word and Pages, words will remain in the same position from system to system.

But, for best results, it is best to use a PDF rather than a Word document.  The way the PDF looks will remain the same from system to system, excepting cases where the PDF was setup improperly.  So, whether you used spaces or tab stops or styles to setup your document is immaterial to the PDF.  If the PDF looks right on your end, it's going to look right on the other end as well, excepting for those cases where something was configured improperly for the creation of the PDF.
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Re: Bullet list justified text looking odd
« Reply #15 on: July 09, 2024, 03:56:00 AM »
I could be wrong, but I think both Word and Pages apply some kind of default style to bulleted list items.

It is a problem, just as you suggest, to hit the spacebar to align things rather than using styles. I wouldn't have thought of justification as causing a problem, but perhaps in Jan's case, it did.

Jan, one possibility would be to select each bulleted list, change to left-justify and see what happens. If the output still looks quirky, try unapplying and then reapplying bulleted list mode.  That might not work, since we aren't 100% sure what caused the problem. Give it a try and see.

Oh, you can see what you might have done by making hidden characters visible. Added spaces will appear as dots in the middle of the line. Removing any between the bullet and the text may also solve the problem. Or it may demonstrate that you didn't add extra spaces in the first place, which at least eliminates a possibility.

Thanks.
I have made hidden characters visible and I can see that sometimes the little dots are close together and sometimes they are spaced further apart. If I try to delete or change them it just messes everything up. I can't even remember how I did it in the first place as I just converted it from the Kindle version. The Kindle version had the text centred and the bullet points are ok. I changed it to justified for the print version and that's when they got messed up.  But the numbering is ok.
I saved the Word version as a PDF so they look the same.
Changing to left didn't work.
I spent such a long time getting the pages and page breaks right so I'm concerned that I will mess all that up if I make any radical changes. I'm meeting with the printers tomorrow so I can discuss the problem with them. :)



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Jan Hurst-Nicholson

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Re: Bullet list justified text looking odd
« Reply #16 on: July 09, 2024, 03:58:41 AM »
It is a problem, just as you suggest, to hit the spacebar to align things rather than using styles. I wouldn't have thought of justification as causing a problem, but perhaps in Jan's case, it did.

Justification adjusts the spacing to align the words left and right.  So, if spaces are used to position words, things won't align once justification is used.

And things can change from system to system even with the same file.  But, with tab stops or the default settings for bulleted lists in Word and Pages, words will remain in the same position from system to system.

But, for best results, it is best to use a PDF rather than a Word document.  The way the PDF looks will remain the same from system to system, excepting cases where the PDF was setup improperly.  So, whether you used spaces or tab stops or styles to setup your document is immaterial to the PDF.  If the PDF looks right on your end, it's going to look right on the other end as well, excepting for those cases where something was configured improperly for the creation of the PDF.

Thanks.
As mentioned above I saved the Word document as a PDF so they are the same. I'm meeting with the printers tomorrow so I will ask their advice.  :)

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