Author Topic: Really?  (Read 5610 times)

R. C.

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Really?
« on: July 05, 2024, 12:46:55 AM »
Friends,

With the constantly rising cost of getting a click, I searched for “how much self-published authors spend on advertising.” Too many poorly constructed articles later, I landed on this: The Book Designer - How Much Does It Cost to Self-Publish a Book? Your 2024 Guide

Of course, I had to do the math on page one, and for editing only, the range is: $7,200 - $18,600. This means I am in for my time and $7,200 BEFORE marketing!

Then I read the article. Here is a quick summary:

Cover costs: Pre-made: $50–$100, Designed using stock photographs: $125–$400, Custom designed: $500–$1,200+

Formatting: “it pays to have a professional do it” - “use software specifically designed for formatting books...for less than a couple hundred.”

Printing: “you want to stick with print on demand services”

Distribution: “IngramSpark charges a $49-per-title setup fee for print books (although they regularly run promotions where they’ll do setup for free), and then wholesale distribution is free.”

Paid Promotion and Advertising: “how much you’re willing to spend each month is entirely up to you.”

This is a direct quote: “If you’re spending more on ads than you’re making on sales, then advertising might not be the right medium for promoting your book.”

“Expenses required to write, publish, and promote books can get out of hand quickly if not properly managed, so it’s beneficial to take time early in the process to prepare a budget.”

I followed the embedded link to: Book Promotion: Do This, Not That – January 2018 Arg, nothing new to report.

Of course, the emphasis above is mine. Which leads me to this question: Do the costs listed in the article seem reasonable?

R.C.
 
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Hopscotch

Re: Really?
« Reply #1 on: July 05, 2024, 12:56:09 AM »
Do the costs listed in the article seem reasonable?

Nope, and that's why we have WS - to share a better (and less :hehe) approach
 
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alhawke

Re: Really?
« Reply #2 on: July 05, 2024, 01:47:50 AM »
Of course, I had to do the math on page one, and for editing only, the range is: $7,200 - $18,600. This means I am in for my time and $7,200 BEFORE marketing!
No way. The average book sells 150 copies. This is poor budgeting to the extreme.
Cover costs: Pre-made: $50–$100, Designed using stock photographs: $125–$400, Custom designed: $500–$1,200+
The lowest costs here are appropriate. I've spent at the high end for painted covers but, unfortunately, a painted cover doesn't budget well.
Formatting: “it pays to have a professional do it” - “use software specifically designed for formatting books...for less than a couple hundred.”
Nope. A one time purchase of Vellum will do just as well as "professional editing".
Printing: “you want to stick with print on demand services”
Distribution: “IngramSpark charges a $49-per-title setup fee for print books (although they regularly run promotions where they’ll do setup for free), and then wholesale distribution is free.”
POD is right but everything else is wrong. This is old news. Ingram has no fee anymore. As far as ebooks, never publish through Ingram.
This is a direct quote: “If you’re spending more on ads than you’re making on sales, then advertising might not be the right medium for promoting your book.”
Advertising rarely ever pays back--in every medium, not just publishing. You're advertising your brand, not your particular book. That's why writers have to write so many books these days.

Yeah, I disagree with a lot in this article. This is a real tough industry where so many writer want to fulfill their dream. If publishing just one book is a dream, than budgeting isn't so important. If it's a career, the writer has to budget. And create many works. Or somehow cleverly tap into the market with that one amazing stellar book--a tougher sell.

The article mentioned bookkeeping and budgeting. This one, I totally agree with. I've learned that so much of revenue stems from not only how many books purchased but how much I spent creating the book.
Thanks for bringing up the article, R.C.! It's pretty discouraging to a new writer. I remember seeing costs quoted like this and scaring me when I started. Audiobooks have outlandish price ranges quoted on the internet too.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2024, 01:59:28 AM by alhawke »
 
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Bill Hiatt

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Re: Really?
« Reply #3 on: July 05, 2024, 11:48:51 PM »
Yeah, Vellum will do just as well as a professional formatter if you aren't really picky about wanting some exact thing that Vellum isn't set up for. Font choices and layout options are limited. But I think most people could find something that looked good to them within Vellum's available choices.

Even though Vellum is a small company, it publishes frequent updates and fixes reported bugs relatively quickly. It was fiction-centric but is now adding options for things like footnotes and appendices that might be necessary in nonfiction. It's also made it easier to import back matter from one project to another.

Covers do cost. Hence the temptation of AI. But I'm sticking with my human designer until AI's ethical conundrums are worked out ( or until I die, whichever comes first).

Good professional editors also cost, but if you find a good editor, it's probably a worthwhile expenditure.

Advertising is tough. You need something to get your book noticed, but AMS ads, which seem like the obvious choice, don't have good ROI. Just for fun, I started looking at services that manage ads for you. The cheapest I could find was $900 a month (not counting the cost of the ads). The company is not book-centric, and I think you need a minimum ad spend. The company will keep you within your ACOS targets by constantly adjusting your ads, but I suspect getting ACOS as low as we'd like might result in ads that don't sell books and/or ads Amazon cancels as "not relevant" because they don't get enough clicks.

Related observation: I've been experimenting and may have discovered that ads keyed to similar products work better than ads keyed to search keywords, but I'm still in early stages. Keyword ads also need to stick to exact and phrase. General targeting tends to be a financial sinkhole, even if you check every day and negative target every inappropriate search.

Alternatives to advertising:
Bookfunnel promos do move books, depending to some extent on how well your books fit the promo theme and whether or not you discount. Conversion rate (clicks to sales) is about 2-5% on full price, 5-15% on discounted (though with the right promo theme and presumably other authors with big mailing lists involved, I've seen as high as 58%. And since there's no extra costs (beyond basic fee) for entering promos or per click, it's much easier to get a positive ROI.
Substack does move books, and using it is free. Check the Substack threads for considerable amounts of detail. Let's just say it does take time (to create short pieces to post and to interact) to build enough of a presence, but I have moved at least as many books as I have with AMS. It's hard to get exact numbers, but I've seen nice jumps in books that don't normally sell much, as well as someone telling me they've bought and having a sale pop up. The effect could be bigger than I'm aware of. 


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alhawke

Re: Really?
« Reply #4 on: July 06, 2024, 12:44:25 AM »
Just for fun, I started looking at services that manage ads for you. The cheapest I could find was $900 a month (not counting the cost of the ads). 
I'd be cautious of outsourcing ads. I've tried them and have had no luck selling more than my own ads. In fact, my BookBub ads do better. One didn't sell any books after I spent $600. I sell daily with BookBub. Unfortunately, as you're seeing, it's very expensive to try these out.

WrittenWord Media has there Reader Reach service. I've had it for book launches. It's no where near as effective as their standard promo services.
 
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PJ Post

Re: Really?
« Reply #5 on: July 06, 2024, 01:16:04 AM »
You know I'm going to say they're doing it wrong. Branding and social media, apart from our time, are pretty close to free.

And between free Grammarly, Word and your chatbot du jour, you should be able to get a nice edit. Have the chatbot summarize passages to make sure your themes are resonating and clear. Do character studies, lots of tools to help us publish pro work. DIY covers aren't that tough either, between AI images and the free or dirt cheap graphics programs out there, there's just no reason to pay that much anymore. It's not like we don't have a ton of examples to emulate.

I think a lot of self-publishers are still trying to follow the traditional marketing path (perhaps they're seeking validation) even though it hasn't really worked in years. The internet has moved on.
 
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TimothyEllis

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Re: Really?
« Reply #6 on: July 06, 2024, 10:18:07 AM »
I think a lot of self-publishers are still trying to follow the traditional marketing path (perhaps they're seeking validation) even though it hasn't really worked in years. The internet has moved on.

That may be true.

I've been seeing one new author getting her first book ready to publish, and everything she's done has raised my eyebrows and made me think she's following some Trad how to guide. I'd have had her book out a year ago. She's still in group crit chapter sessions.

She recently refused to believe there were 6 and 7 figure Indie authors, which is what I get all the time from Trad authors.
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Bill Hiatt

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Re: Really?
« Reply #7 on: July 06, 2024, 11:42:08 AM »
You know I'm going to say they're doing it wrong. Branding and social media, apart from our time, are pretty close to free.

And between free Grammarly, Word and your chatbot du jour, you should be able to get a nice edit. Have the chatbot summarize passages to make sure your themes are resonating and clear. Do character studies, lots of tools to help us publish pro work. DIY covers aren't that tough either, between AI images and the free or dirt cheap graphics programs out there, there's just no reason to pay that much anymore. It's not like we don't have a ton of examples to emulate.

I think a lot of self-publishers are still trying to follow the traditional marketing path (perhaps they're seeking validation) even though it hasn't really worked in years. The internet has moved on.
Social media is pretty much free--but in that case, you get what you pay for. Most of them have clogged the channels with algorithms designed to force you to spend money on ads if you want to have any real reach.

Despite my 56,000 followers on FB, I could literally nuke every one of my social media accounts tomorrow and not see any significant effect at all. Long ago, with much fewer followers, that wouldn't have been true. But it is pretty much true now.

As for editing, I've used Grammarly. I've used Pro Writing Aid. Not any more. Aside from the enormous number of false positives that I have to grind my way through, I'm not using any AI-connected tool if the developers didn't compensate people for the training data. Anyway, I've seen nothing to convince me that AI does as well as a human editor. And as for using a chatbot, same problem. Remember, AI is only looking for ways to reproduce patterns, as you yourself have pointed out. It doesn't truly understand the material.

That's also my response to creating covers with AI. As I've mentioned, I have experimented with creating images using Shutterstock AI (which does compensate artists for the use of their work). And I have gotten some beautiful images, but the enormous number of misfires reinforce my point that AI is moving data around without understanding it. Anyway, I use it only for situations in which I wouldn't hire an artist, anyway. At most, I'd use a stock photo under the same plan I use for AI.

Frankly, putting editors and artists out of business is not in our long-term best interest. It's not even really in AI's best interest. As fresh training data diminishes, the AI becomes worse, not better. But if we're not careful, it will be the only alternative we have. It'll be about that time that corporate America starts charging us ridiculous rates for  the use of AI. Or maybe the high energy demands of Ai will force regulation, even rationing.

As nice as it would be if everything were free, we're not there yet. The most we can get is temporarily free but with long-term costs


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LilyBLily

Re: Really?
« Reply #8 on: July 06, 2024, 02:33:19 PM »
Most of us can cut some costs, depending on our various capabilities and tolerances, but we'll each choose different areas. Some of us can get free editing or do it well ourselves. Others can design great covers. Others are ace at formatting. Others thrive in critique groups, while still others are dynamite at writing newsletters and mobilizing street teams.

And so on. There are many things we can do free or inexpensively and that don't feel like horrid drudgery. We simply have to figure out what those things are and avoid wasting our time and effort and money on the rest.


 
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PJ Post

Re: Really?
« Reply #9 on: July 07, 2024, 01:16:17 AM »
AI is no more evil than any other aspect of late stage capitalism. For example, no one seems to have a problem buying sneakers or smart phones (google it). The Future is inevitable. It's like trying to buy American - we don't make anything anymore. And since my career is literally one of the industries being AI'ed away, I think my opinion is pretty valid on the subject.

And the AI tools we have are truly next level. Of course, like anything else, we have to learn how to use them to get the best results.
 

TimothyEllis

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Re: Really?
« Reply #10 on: July 07, 2024, 01:17:36 AM »
And since my career is literally one of the industries being AI'ed away

What's your career?
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PJ Post

Re: Really?
« Reply #11 on: July 07, 2024, 01:43:48 AM »
Design
 

TimothyEllis

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Re: Really?
« Reply #12 on: July 07, 2024, 01:47:31 AM »
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PJ Post

Re: Really?
« Reply #13 on: July 07, 2024, 03:57:47 AM »
Does it matter?

AI is displacing everything from Architecture to Interior Design to Web Design to Graphic Design to Branding to Illustration to Presentations to Wedding Planning and napkin patterns. No, AI can't compete with the best in the field, but the average client doesn't need the best - they just need good enough, which turns out to be a shockingly low bar.
 
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TimothyEllis

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Re: Really?
« Reply #14 on: July 07, 2024, 11:56:33 AM »
Does it matter?

Yeah, it does. You're making a sweeping statement with no context otherwise.

Quote
AI is displacing everything from Architecture to Interior Design to Web Design to Graphic Design to Branding to Illustration to Presentations to Wedding Planning and napkin patterns. No, AI can't compete with the best in the field, but the average client doesn't need the best - they just need good enough, which turns out to be a shockingly low bar.

Architecture  and interior design- I would never ever in a million years buy a Bot designed house, or let one design an interior for me. Not happening.

Web design has always been too expensive and delivered too little. It probably had an expiry date from the start.

Illustration - not until copyright laws change.

Wedding planning? Again, that's a job which probably had a short half life anyway. Most people can't afford them.

Napkin patterns? Who the hell does customized napkins? Who even uses them anymore?

Context matters.
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Post-Crisis D

Re: Really?
« Reply #15 on: July 07, 2024, 12:29:00 PM »
The one thing I have noticed is that there are groups of people that seem to feel other groups of people (i.e., people that aren't them) are useless and need to go away.  Those former groups of people seem to be the ones in favor of everything-AI.  Their PR is that everything-AI is for the benefit of everyone, yay, and balloons and unicorn sparkles for everyone!  But, if history is any guide, and it usually is, those groups of people will probably work to find a way to eliminate those other groups of people they deem useless and need to be done away with.  In the old days, they'd just up and find ways to kill them quickly.  Now, maybe they are more methodical.  You know, give them free stuff.  Promise them a guaranteed income and free stuff.  Free health care, yay!  Free transportation, yay!  Free food, yay!  Free whatever, yay!  And, then you get people dependent.  Then you ration.  Then maybe put stuff in their food and medicines that shorten their lifespans.  If anyone notices, call them nutty conspiracy theorists.  But, it's all good and they get everything free and they don't have to work anymore.  Then, if a neighboring town and all its people kind of just goes away, no, never happened.  That town never existed.  An Internet search confirms it.  You must be thinking of some other town.  Until the day comes when you never existed.

But, you know, yay for AI!
Mulder: "If you're distracted by fear of those around you, it keeps you from seeing the actions of those above."
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Bill Hiatt

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Re: Really?
« Reply #16 on: July 07, 2024, 11:49:20 PM »
My concerns are a little less dystopian than that. I don't see AI as a plot to eliminate certain people. The movement toward AI is more like not giving a damn what happens to anyone else.

AI faces significant obstacles. Whether or not they can be overcome is a subject we can debate ad nauseum--and already have. Yet here we are again--in a thread that wasn't about AI in the first place.

So why not repeat the things I and others have already said?

Obstacles:
Power consumption. AI is an absolute power hog. A number of estimates suggest that AI's continuing expansion will result in collapsing power grids sooner rather than later. At least in the US, operations to expand our energy output are hampered by political differences and perceptions of reality. We may be faced with either having to curtail the use of AI or having to ration power for everything. AI can undeniably do a lot of useful things. Maybe we should save it for synthesizing medical data to cure cancer and let humans continue to design our book covers and narrate our audio books. Just a thought.

Water consumption. AI pushes up server cooling requirements. With droughts becoming a more common phenomenon, use of water for server cooling becomes a real issue.

Copyright. AI stretches the concept of fair use to the limit--and well beyond, in my opinion. Courts may or may not agree. There are legal arguments on both sides. Existing laws were clearly not designed to deal with AI training, so such a use isn't expressly prohibited. On the other hand, such usage is nothing like any other established application of fair use. I don't see Congress acting in the near future. EU regulators might be a better bet. But collectively, there are enough potential legal entanglements to make AI's future uncertain.

AI food shortage. Even AI developers acknowledge that AI needs a constant diet of new IP to stay current and refine its capabilities. That's also probably why Sam Altman was looking for another billion in investment. But here's the thing. Developers also acknowledge that AI feeding on its own output will steadily degrade in quality. It needs new human input. But what happens when creative applications are no longer financially viable for humans, and they cease producing public output? AI starves. What happens if regulators leave the previous training alone but ban any new use of the IP of others without consent and compensation? AI starves.

(Documentation can be found in the earlier threads.)

My own experience with Shutterstock AI makes me doubt AI is any kind of next level wonderful. In saying that, I acknowledge that Shutterstock, which voluntarily compensates artists and limits its training data to those artists it distributes (and is thus able to compensate) may be more limited, though I've heard just recently similar complaints about Midjourney, and we've also seen some freakish examples of what AI produces.

As I've mentioned elsewhere, I can get some beautiful images. No question. But I may have to generate hundreds to get a viable one. The output varies from perfect fulfillment of the prompt to ignoring part of the prompt to not seeming to understand what it's doing at all. Occasionally, I have to abandon a concept completely and try something else because AI outright chokes on it and can't produce a single image that fits, no matter what I do. (Luckily, Shutterstock only charges the ones I actually download against my image credits. If it counted every image I generated--or even 25% of them, since AI generates four at a time--it would quickly become impractical.)

(Examples can be found in earlier threads.)

So for now, I use the work of human photographers for any application where I can find a photo that works. And if anything, I'm ordering more from my cover designer. (The places I use Shutterstock AI are places I wouldn't have hired an artist for, anyway.)   


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PJ Post

Re: Really?
« Reply #17 on: July 08, 2024, 01:03:19 AM »
But, you know, yay for AI!

It's not a matter of liking it, it's the Future. It's inevitable. It is what it is. We can get in front of it and leverage it - or we can get run over.


The movement toward AI is more like not giving a damn what happens to anyone else.

Welcome to capitalism. Industry has never given a damn what happens to anyone else - like ever. Full stop. Why should the latest technology be any different?

I'll start my argument with this...





Quote
AI faces significant obstacles. Whether or not they can be overcome is a subject we can debate ad nauseum--and already have. Yet here we are again--in a thread that wasn't about AI in the first place.

So why not repeat the things I and others have already said?

We don't have to rehash AI, but it's silly to assume it's not going be the future. Maybe this year, maybe in a few decades, but the obstacles will be overcome. So, we can try to shape AI's application, maybe guide it, certainly figure out how to benefit from it; but other humans are going to use it to put everyone else out of business in the most Draconian and expedient way possible - because that's capitalism, too.

___

AI, as a tool, is relevant to the thread because it can greatly reduce the cost of producing a professional book.

___

Also, when it comes to copyright, we may have options...


« Last Edit: July 08, 2024, 01:07:23 AM by PJ Post »
 

TimothyEllis

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Re: Really?
« Reply #18 on: July 08, 2024, 01:13:34 AM »
AI, as a tool, is relevant to the thread because it can greatly reduce the cost of producing a professional book.

 :icon_rofl:

Sorry, had to laugh.

You can learn to edit to a high standard. You can learn to proof to a high standard. You can learn to do good covers.

That's how you reduce the cost of producing books.

AI is not needed in any of that.

The only cost I've had in recent times was the 2 dragon images I bought the licenses for 3 series ago. That's it in the last 18 books. And actually, it's been more than 30 since I paid for a cover, and that got reused for the 2nd book in the pair.

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alhawke

Re: Really?
« Reply #19 on: July 08, 2024, 01:50:25 AM »

The AI is Microsoft's VASA-1.
Leonardo Da Vinci is rolling in his grave... But it was pretty entertaining.  :icon_rofl:
 
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R. C.

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Re: Really?
« Reply #20 on: July 08, 2024, 01:58:29 AM »
Does every thread eventually turn into a discussion about the relative merits of AI?  Just asking...

R.C.
 

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Re: Really?
« Reply #21 on: July 08, 2024, 02:00:47 AM »
Does every thread eventually turn into a discussion about the relative merits of AI?  Just asking...

Only when you or someone else pushes them.
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PJ Post

Re: Really?
« Reply #22 on: July 08, 2024, 02:32:12 AM »
Does every thread eventually turn into a discussion about the relative merits of AI?  Just asking...

AI is the current shiny thing - like MS Word used to be, or Canva or Photoshop or Dragon Speaking. I'm sure the button was all the rage once-upon-a.

They're just tools.

Also, since AI is an incredibly powerful productivity tool for Creatives and Content creators - and it only keeps getting better - it's going to keep coming up.

___

The AI debate reminds me of the vinyl records vs digital music argument. Sure, vinyl may sound better to some people's ear, but the world of commerce embraced digital - so here we are.
 
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TimothyEllis

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Re: Really?
« Reply #23 on: July 08, 2024, 03:07:01 AM »
Also, since AI is an incredibly powerful productivity tool for Creatives and Content creators

Content creators, yes.

Creatives, no.

And no, I don't consider content creators to be creatives in this context. And I do consider Bot content to be the lowest form of content. Nothing at all for people be proud of doing.

You're also flogging a dead horse on this.
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Post-Crisis D

Re: Really?
« Reply #24 on: July 08, 2024, 07:54:45 AM »
I remember plenty of things that were going to be The Future™ that still haven't happened after 10, 20, 30, 40, 50, etc. years.  And some look more likely than not to never materialize.

Still uncertain is how courts may rule.  Also, however courts rule, legislation may come out that changes things as well.  It is far from a given that AI, at least in regards to faux-creating stuff, will be the future of "creativity."  Plus, as Bill Hiatt pointed out, if AI ends up feeding into itself, quality is going to degrade.  That means AI will require human creativity but if AI effectively kills human creativity, that can be self-defeating.

Consider writing exercises in school where you had to write an essay on a topic or book report or whatever.  How many students will now use AI to do that, as students in the past may have used money or physical intimidation to write their stuff for them.  One might argue these students are clever for using tools to finish their assignments more efficiently.  But, the point is that the student learns by reading and writing, not that they learn methods to cheat.

The AI-is-a-tool argument is akin to saying it's okay to cheat.  We're not talking about using a tool to find errors or suggest corrections for unclear sentences and so on.  We're talking about a "tool" that can write (or eventually write) your entire novel for you.

Of course, if your only interest is churning out books to sell, that may be fine for you.  But, if you're a real writer that has stories to tell, that's not to your benefit.  That's not to your readers' benefit.  A novel is an expression of someone's creative ideas.  There is a creative spirit there that is absent in something spit out by a machine.

And you can come up with ridiculous ideas like doing away with copyright and charging a media consumption tax or whatever and pretending creative people are somehow going to benefit from that, but you could also sit back and realize that while humanity will benefit if AI finds cures for cancer and solutions to perplexing problems, it does not benefit humanity to outsource human expression and creativity to a machine.

And, if people figure that out, there is always the possibility that legislation will come about that will either put a stop to it or put restrictions on it that keep human creatives on top.
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Jeff Tanyard

Re: Really?
« Reply #25 on: July 08, 2024, 12:57:58 PM »
I remember plenty of things that were going to be The Future™ that still haven't happened after 10, 20, 30, 40, 50, etc. years.  And some look more likely than not to never materialize.


Remember the Segway?  When it first came out, the buzz around it was that it would revolutionize the way we all got around.  City planners would redesign urban areas around the Segway, etc.  It was going to be the biggest new invention of our lives.

That didn't happen.  It turned out the Segway was just a nifty toy for well-to-do people, a sort of "solution in search of a problem" rather than a complete game-changer for the whole society. 

I think there's a fair chance--maybe not a likelihood, but at least a non-trivial chance--of A.I. turning out the same way.


Quote
Consider writing exercises in school where you had to write an essay on a topic or book report or whatever.  How many students will now use AI to do that, as students in the past may have used money or physical intimidation to write their stuff for them.  One might argue these students are clever for using tools to finish their assignments more efficiently.  But, the point is that the student learns by reading and writing, not that they learn methods to cheat.

The AI-is-a-tool argument is akin to saying it's okay to cheat.  We're not talking about using a tool to find errors or suggest corrections for unclear sentences and so on.  We're talking about a "tool" that can write (or eventually write) your entire novel for you.


Humans tend to follow the path of least resistance.  The more stuff A.I.--or any type of machine, frankly--does for us, the less we will do for ourselves.  In time, our ability to do things will atrophy and shrink.  We will eventually reach a point where we no longer know how to do anything, including maintenance on the machines, and that's when everything breaks.

E.M. Forster wrote a short story about this back in 1909.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Machine_Stops

If anyone hasn't read it yet, you can read the whole short story here:

https://www.cs.ucdavis.edu/~koehl/Teaching/ECS188/PDF_files/Machine_stops.pdf
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PJ Post

Re: Really?
« Reply #26 on: July 08, 2024, 10:05:16 PM »
I remember plenty of things that were going to be The Future™...

This is a stale argument.

They said the same things about the camera and the handheld calculator. Was there ever a time when people thought Oil was going to be a passing fad, or cars, or plastics? Was Algebra considered silly? I mean, what's a 'zero', amirite? The Earth, around the Sun? Crazy talk! Organ transplants?!?!

Technology always evolves and always remains, even if it doesn't have an immediate place in the market, until a new generations finds a use for it.

___

A few things to point out though:

1. I have never recommended that we use AI to write our books. It rather defeats the whole point for me. I have no interest in the commodity bin. I advocate exploring AI for all of the productivity aspects and work flow. And I think I've been pretty clear on the subject.

2. Again, it's not about how we feel about AI one way or the other. It's here to stay. As I said from the git-go, there's just too much money in it, both as investment and cost savings. And to whatever level AI evolves to or is allowed to evolve to, the humans that use it will out-compete the ones who don't. It's as simple as that.

3. The copyright tax thing was a different perspective. Our current Copyright system is woefully inadequate and structured to protect corporations, not Creatives. It's broken. And I believe resolution comes through discussion and analysis, which means entertaining new ideas, even if they sound bat-sh*t crazy.
 

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Re: Really?
« Reply #27 on: July 09, 2024, 01:21:38 AM »
Let's just ignore the energy and water constraints. Let's just ignore the fact that AI needs a constant diet of new, human-generated material that will be harder and harder to find as human creatives are driven from the marketplace. Let's ignore all those things in the name of maintaining a consistent narrative about AI's inevitable dominance. Let's just assume (without any evidence) that all of those obstacles can be overcome.

I think AI will continue to exist. I think it has an important role to play in some areas, like data analysis. I think it can and should be kept out of creative endeavors. It should be possible to change copyright laws to eliminate AI training without consent and compensation as fair use. Those creative applications might still continue, but they're going to be more expensive, and profits will be more evenly distributed. That alone will make it look less new and shiny to corporate America.

If that isn't enough to maintain some kind of reasonable balance, then we develop on AI tax. (Some years ago, Elon Musk, of all people, suggested a tax on any machine that replaces a human being. The general idea isn't new.)

Quote
1. I have never recommended that we use AI to write our books. It rather defeats the whole point for me. I have no interest in the commodity bin. I advocate exploring AI for all of the productivity aspects and work flow. And I think I've been pretty clear on the subject.
Yes, in fairness, you are absolutely correct. You have always been clear about that. And if AI were designed ethically, I'd have no problem using it to improve workflow. But if capitalism is, as you suggest, hell bent on doing whatever makes the most money, then there's no way AI can be constrained to use as a tool rather than a replacement without considerable systemic change. Given that you also regard systemic change as impossible, your advocacy of AI as a tool doesn't really make sense. In the narrative you've created, it's never going to remain just that. And if, as you've also suggested, human authors will cater mostly to a niche audience that insists on human creatives, then I'm going to reiterate that most of us might as well give up now. The small number of authors who will survive in that environment will be the big-name trad authors. The rest of us are just rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic. If one accepts all of those assumptions, our downfall is as inevitable as the rise of AI.

I prefer to leave some room for optimism. Maybe I'll be proved wrong. Maybe not. Either way, I'm not feeding the beast that could devour me later on.


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Re: Really?
« Reply #28 on: July 09, 2024, 01:28:15 AM »
The small number of authors who will survive in that environment will be the big-name trad authors.

It will be the authors with books consistently in the top 500,000 ranks on Amazon. And the equivalent on the other sites.

I've no idea how many that will be though.

But it certainly won't be all Trad authors.

And if it comes to pass that Bots start selling books, most Trad authors will be up sh*t creek as well.

It could in fact break the Trad publishers once and for all.
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Re: Really?
« Reply #29 on: July 09, 2024, 01:37:45 AM »
Yes, it's probably better to say the most successful authors. That said, it's easier to be a household name as a top selling trad than as a top selling indie.

In the quoted statement, I was assuming for the sake of argument that, as PJ has suggested earlier, human authors will serve a niche that demands human authors. That would be analogous to people who insist on hand-crafted furniture, bespoke suits, etc. Of course, there are other possible outcomes, but that one is at least possible.


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Re: Really?
« Reply #30 on: July 09, 2024, 01:42:08 AM »
Anyone who has an existing fan base will presumably keep that fan base.

Those keeping their fans happy, shouldn't see too many effects.

The biggest danger I see is Bot books becoming a standard 99c, and destroying the price structure in place now.

But that might be viewed as a quality indicator as well, and not happen. KU views 99c like that a lot of the time. Cheap is crap quality mentality.
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PJ Post

Re: Really?
« Reply #31 on: July 09, 2024, 11:57:09 AM »
The small number of authors who will survive in that environment will be the big-name trad authors.

Still nope.

The authors that survive will be the ones with something to say - assuming they can find their audience. But even then, we're looking at a boat-load of writers. Can they sustain a career? Maybe. Will they get rich? Probably not. I think those days are long gone for most Creatives.
 

Post-Crisis D

Re: Really?
« Reply #32 on: July 09, 2024, 12:39:53 PM »
I wondered what AI "thought" about the topic.

Question: Will AI replace human creativity?

ChatGPT:
Quote
AI is unlikely to replace human creativity entirely. While artificial intelligence systems have demonstrated impressive capabilities in various creative tasks such as generating art, music, poetry, and even writing stories, there are several aspects of creativity that remain distinctly human and challenging for AI to fully replicate:

  • Originality and Novelty: Human creativity often involves generating novel ideas and concepts that break away from established patterns or conventions. AI, while proficient at analyzing existing data and patterns, struggles with true originality and generating entirely new ideas that transcend existing frameworks.
  • Emotional and Contextual Understanding: Creativity often involves understanding and expressing complex emotions, cultural nuances, and contextual relevance. AI lacks genuine emotional experiences and struggles to comprehend and integrate these elements into creative outputs in a way that resonates authentically with human audiences.
  • Intuition and Insight: Human creativity often relies on intuitive leaps, insights, and serendipitous connections between disparate ideas or concepts. While AI can analyze vast amounts of data and identify correlations, it typically lacks the intuition and subtle understanding that humans bring to creative processes.
  • Personal and Cultural Identity: Creativity is deeply intertwined with personal experiences, cultural influences, and individual perspectives. AI lacks personal identity and consciousness, which are crucial in shaping authentic creative expression that reflects human diversity and depth.
  • Critique, Adaptation, and Evolution: Human creativity involves iterative processes of critique, adaptation, and evolution based on feedback and changing contexts. While AI can optimize based on predefined objectives, it often struggles with adaptive creativity that responds dynamically to evolving challenges and opportunities.

That being said, AI can certainly augment and enhance human creativity by providing tools for inspiration, collaboration, and automation of repetitive tasks. AI-generated content can also serve as a source of inspiration or a starting point for further human creativity. Ultimately, the collaboration between AI and human creativity is likely to be synergistic rather than one-sided, with each contributing unique strengths to creative endeavors. Therefore, while AI will influence creative industries and practices, it is improbable that it will replace the depth and breadth of human creativity in its entirety.
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Re: Really?
« Reply #33 on: July 09, 2024, 09:51:49 PM »
The small number of authors who will survive in that environment will be the big-name trad authors.

Still nope.

The authors that survive will be the ones with something to say - assuming they can find their audience. But even then, we're looking at a boat-load of writers. Can they sustain a career? Maybe. Will they get rich? Probably not. I think those days are long gone for most Creatives.
I'm inclined to a more optimistic view myself. The result I'm mentioning is assuming for the sake of argument that all your premises are correct. How do you reconcile any kind of optimism with your often-stated belief that AI will just keep getting better from here?

In other professions in which automation largely took over, the number of people remaining to cater to customers who still want handmade goods is tiny. What's the logic behind assuming that writers will be different in that regard? At best, I'm not sure we can confidently predict how many people there are spaces for in such a situation.

Usually, customers who want handmade goods are willing to pay more. It's an upscale market. If we assume the same will be true in literature, isn't it more likely that authors who are household names will snag most of that market? I agree with the notion that writers who have something to say are normally at an advantage, but in the kind of constrained market that you're talking about, the power of name recognition will more heavily influence the odds. The tendency of upscale buyers is to look for luxury brands. There's still enough bias against self publishing for me to think authors who have a major label behind them will do better. And an upscale buyer is more likely to go with Stephen King than Joe You've-Never-Heard-of-Me Horror Writer.

Since traditional journalism is already shrinking fast, we can see a sample of what's happening on Substack. A lot of journalists are there, but the people who were already recognized names are the ones raking in the subscription bucks, $5 million a year in one case. Certainly, they have something to say. But the fact that they're recognizable names puts them way ahead of people who have something to say but not a very high profile.

Probably, most of us aren't going to get rich regardless of what happens. But creatives have only really gotten rich for a relatively short period of time in the modern era. The norm is for creatives to scrape by unless patronized by the very wealthy--and even then, they aren't exactly wealthy themselves, just better off.

I'd be fine with AI in a decent ethical framework as a useful tool. But your own premises make it hard to imagine how that can happen.

Now, if ChatGPT as quoted by Post-Crisis D is correct, we're talking about a very different situation. But that isn't the situation you've been presuming, at least as far as I can tell.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2024, 10:05:55 PM by Bill Hiatt »


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PJ Post

Re: Really?
« Reply #34 on: July 09, 2024, 10:44:37 PM »
I'm inclined to a more optimistic view myself. The result I'm mentioning is assuming for the sake of argument that all your premises are correct. How do you reconcile any kind of optimism with your often-stated belief that AI will just keep getting better from here?

Because I believe there will always be a place for artists. Let's face it, lots of self-publishers don't give a sh*t about literature. It's just an easy internet business. I say this all the time - if they could make more money selling t-shirts, they'd do that.

So, let's not confuse the get-rich-quick-schemers (gray and black hatters) with what we might think of as traditional writers - artists with something to say.

Artists will always have a place because there's always going to be demand for their insights.

That's as optimistic as it gets.


Quote
Usually, customers who want handmade goods are willing to be more. It's an upscale market. If we assume the same will be true in literature, isn't it more likely that authors who are household names will snag most of that market?

No. Most household names don't market themselves. What are they going to do when the publishing world implodes? What happens when they lose their support systems and more importantly - their advances?

Also, how confident are you that these household names have insights that folks want to read about?


Quote
I agree with the notion that writers who have something to say are normally at an advantage, but in the kind of constrained market that you're talking about, the power of name recognition will more heavily influence the odds. The tendency of upscale buyers is to look for luxury brands. There's still enough bias against self publishing for me to think authors who have a major label behind them will do better. And an upscale buyer is more likely to go with Stephen King than Joe You've-Never-Heard-of-Me Horror Writer.

This is old think - applying old norms to new market conditions. The luxury brand analogy isn't a one to one here.

Remember, I'm on board with branding strategies and finding our tribe. My tribe will buy my books over Stephen King's because they're my tribe, not his. My tribe has no concerns over self-publishing.


Quote
Since traditional journalism is already shrinking fast, we can see a sample of what's happening on Substack. A lot of journalists are there, but the people who were already recognized names are the ones raking in the subscription bucks, $5 million a year in one case. Certainly, they have something to say. But the fact that they're recognizable names puts them way ahead of people who have something to say but not a very high profile.

Fair enough. But how many of these writers are following a branding strategy and engaging with their tribe? I'm guessing next to none because, for whatever reason, this isn't something writers do.


Quote
Probably, most of us aren't going to get rich regardless of what happens. But creatives have only really gotten rich for a relatively short period of time in the modern era. The norm is for creatives to scrape by unless patronized by the very wealthy--and even then, they aren't exactly wealthy themselves, just better off.

I'd be fine with AI in a decent ethical framework as a useful tool. But your own premises make it hard to imagine how that can happen.

I agree that getting rich through our creativity is becoming more and more rare. We have to have the passion first, and then maybe we can earn cubicle money.

As for ethics...do you own a smart phone? Sneakers? Drive a car? Buy plastics? Wear clothes? Eat vegetables? The world is an ethical mess when it comes to consumerism, between abusive labor practices and companies literally making the planet uninhabitable, where do we draw the line? I get standing up for Creatives, because that's us, right? But AI isn't even in the running when it comes to the worst offenders.


Quote
Now, if ChatGPT as quoted by Post-Crisis D is correct, we're talking about a very different situation. But that isn't the situation you've been presuming, at least as far as I can tell.


I posted this before - all AI - from a text prompt, seems pretty creative to me:

« Last Edit: July 09, 2024, 10:48:52 PM by PJ Post »
 

Lorri Moulton

Re: Really?
« Reply #35 on: July 10, 2024, 02:37:06 AM »
I think it's interesting that our outlooks seem to reflect our genres. 

My outlook is that there is plenty of room for authors wanting to tell their stories.  I'm not worried about how many other authors (AI and human) are out there, because I'm not competing against them.  I just work on making the next story fun and interesting...the rest will take care of itself.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2024, 05:59:48 AM by Lorri Moulton »

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Hopscotch

Re: Really?
« Reply #36 on: July 10, 2024, 05:51:05 AM »
  Artists will always have a place [in PJ's idealized AI world] because there's always going to be demand for their insights.

But won't perfected AI provide "insights" sufficient for readers happy reading AI flash-and-trash?
 

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Re: Really?
« Reply #37 on: July 10, 2024, 03:06:32 PM »
I think it's interesting that our outlooks seem to reflect our genres. 

My outlook is that there is plenty of room for authors wanting to tell their stories.  I'm not worried about how many other authors (AI and human) are out there, because I'm not competing against them.  I just work on making the next story fun and interesting...the rest will take care of itself.

This.  :goodpost:

Plus, anyone with a mailing list and social media following their books will continue to sell.

For authors who put out a book a month, their core fans are potentially reading 30 other books by other authors in the same month. 3 monthly and its 90 books and other authors.

That's not competition. That's the reality.

You can add in as many Bot authors as you like, and that doesn't change, and just because readers pick up new authors or even bots, doesn't change that when your book goes on pre-order or hits KU, they read it immediately.

For those without a decent following, nothing actually changes with Bot books anyway. They just merge with the thousands of books not being read, the same as they are now.

Amazon is a bottomless pit. Double or triple the flow, and nothing much changes at the top. The bottom just gets bigger.

That was proved by low content. It vanished into the abyss. There was a question on Quora by someone not understanding why his 1800 low content books were not selling. Well, duh!

Bots may enter the book market, but they have to do exactly the same things as successful authors have to do in order to get read. If they don't, they vanish into the abyss with everyone else.

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PJ Post

Re: Really?
« Reply #38 on: July 10, 2024, 10:23:24 PM »
  Artists will always have a place [in PJ's idealized AI world] because there's always going to be demand for their insights.

But won't perfected AI provide "insights" sufficient for readers happy reading AI flash-and-trash?

As I've said, the commodity bin writers - the uber-fungible stuff - are screwed. AI will be more than capable of satisfying this audience, and soon.

As for the authors with something to say, this demand for human insight will diminish over time (like vinyl records) - maybe a generation or so from now. AI will eventually become like Star Trek's holodeck, able to synthesize the human experience.

So, in the end - yeah. AI will do it all.

And no one will even think about it.
 

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Re: Really?
« Reply #39 on: July 10, 2024, 11:28:50 PM »
PJ, we'll have to agree to disagree.

I agree that there will always be a place for writers producing quality work. But that's partly because I don't believe that Ai will just keep improving. I think there are inherent constraints that make such a progression unlikely. (And the the song you're using as an example is pretty but generic. Also, "bright blue hair"? Uh...)

Will the publishing industry implode? Maybe, but that's not a certainty. And if AI becomes dominant enough to create that outcome, I'm not sure we'll survive it, either. The upscale tendency of niche markets that demand human-made products may change, but that's not a certainty, either. In other fields, human-made products tend to be more expensive. Will books be different? Maybe, but you've consistently resisted the idea that publishing is different.  And if books fall into the same pattern, then yes, luxury branding will be an issue. And the self published author is unlikely to ever be the luxury brand.

For everyone outside the household names, if you are right, and AI can produce material that's good enough, how large a population will that leave who isn't content with good enough? Will it necessarily include all of our tribes? Unless we're adopting a mystical outlook in which tribes are like soulmates, I don't know how we can be sure of that--or anything. (The whole everyone-has-a-tribe idea seems based on magical thinking to me.) And assuming that, publishing industry or not, people don't develop mass amnesia, the big names will still have the advantage in terms of getting attention. Stephen King failed with "The Plant" because people weren't ready to deal with authors individually, and the infrastructure wasn't there. He could walk away from his publisher right now, publish through KDP, and make a fortune. Or he could set up on Substack, start putting out his new work as serials, and make a fortune that way.

To be clear, I agree with you on the optimism. But I think we arrive at that optimism through very different thought processes.

As far as the ethical point about other industries is concerned, it opens an important discussion. We need to be more aware of those issues. But I will point out that it's relatively easy to not use AI at this point. It's not quite so easy to avoid using some products--or to always know which of them is produced by heinous labor practices and which isn't.

Cellphones were one technology I had no interest in. I broke down and got one when I started needing ride services like Uber. But even before that, my employer was assuming everyone had a cellphone, for example, by using them as the only conduit for some emergency information. It's now impossible to do business with some companies without one.

Using your Smartphone example, yes, 50% of them are produced in China, where working conditions are often unsafe. Unfortunately, banning smartphones manufactured in China would create other problems. China is already becoming harder and harder to work with. And any action we take without careful negotiation will doubtless result in retaliation. Increased unemployment is the best-case result. Arming and otherwise supporting our enemies is the worst case. So a simple moral question becomes complicated by the consequences of those actions (potentially including increasing the likelihood of World War III). Also, even in the event of a boycott or a ban, companies can still market their unsafely-made Smartphones elsewhere. And exploitive labor practices, if no longer usable in one industry, can simply result in the transfer of exploited labor to another. An individual society, even one as powerful as the US, has only so much leverage. We can keep our own companies from doing business using unsafely made goods. But we have limited influence on what other countries do.

That's assuming we can always pinpoint the source of the goods we use. The only 100% safe option is to live on a self sustaining farm with enough resources to grow our own food, make our own clothes, tools, etc. That's not even remotely practical for most people.

What we need to do is keep pushing in the direction of health, safety, and environmental soundness, but that takes time and delicate negotiation to avoid creating as many problems as we solve.

AI regulation is in some ways a much easier problem to fix. Not the most important problem, but one whose solution is not quite as fraught.     


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Bill Hiatt

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Re: Really?
« Reply #40 on: July 10, 2024, 11:38:18 PM »
  Artists will always have a place [in PJ's idealized AI world] because there's always going to be demand for their insights.

But won't perfected AI provide "insights" sufficient for readers happy reading AI flash-and-trash?

As I've said, the commodity bin writers - the uber-fungible stuff - are screwed. AI will be more than capable of satisfying this audience, and soon.

As for the authors with something to say, this demand for human insight will diminish over time (like vinyl records) - maybe a generation or so from now. AI will eventually become like Star Trek's holodeck, able to synthesize the human experience.

So, in the end - yeah. AI will do it all.

And no one will even think about it.
This sounds like a swing from optimism back to pessimism. Agree to disagree.


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Post-Crisis D

Re: Really?
« Reply #41 on: July 11, 2024, 01:14:07 AM »
If AI will do everything, why will people need to be able to read at all?  AI will be able to generate videos as easily as text, so why read when they can watch a video?  Why bother with AI written books when they can just watch the AI generated movie or TV series?

What will people need to be able to read for?  Or do math?  Phones won't even need buttons.  They can just say, "Call Bob."

Why will they need to be able to read?  Everything could be verbal.  Learn to talk and you're done.  Writing?  Reading?  How primitive.  Egads!  People used to cut down trees to make paper!  What savages!  Then they used dyes enclosed in metal cylinders to leave marks on those papers!  How silly was that?  Such people were truly backwards and primitive.  Heck, they had to memorize stuff!  They had to recognize different shapes in different combinations as words.  And this in spite of the fact that they had voice technology since they lived in caves.  What foolish creatures these were to devolve into using markings on pieces of dead trees to communicate.  And they did so for thousands of years.  They must have experienced a descent into madness.  Thank goodness we're civilized enough to put all that stuff in the past where it belongs.  Reading?  Writing?  How much time did those primitive people waste on such things?  Crazy savages.  Now, please pass the mealyworm cake; I'd like another slice.
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TimothyEllis

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Re: Really?
« Reply #42 on: July 11, 2024, 02:18:00 AM »
If AI will do everything, why will people need to be able to read at all?  AI will be able to generate videos as easily as text, so why read when they can watch a video?  Why bother with AI written books when they can just watch the AI generated movie or TV series?

What will people need to be able to read for?  Or do math?  Phones won't even need buttons.  They can just say, "Call Bob."

Why will they need to be able to read?  Everything could be verbal.  Learn to talk and you're done.  Writing?  Reading?  How primitive.  Egads!  People used to cut down trees to make paper!  What savages!  Then they used dyes enclosed in metal cylinders to leave marks on those papers!  How silly was that?  Such people were truly backwards and primitive.  Heck, they had to memorize stuff!  They had to recognize different shapes in different combinations as words.  And this in spite of the fact that they had voice technology since they lived in caves.  What foolish creatures these were to devolve into using markings on pieces of dead trees to communicate.  And they did so for thousands of years.  They must have experienced a descent into madness.  Thank goodness we're civilized enough to put all that stuff in the past where it belongs.  Reading?  Writing?  How much time did those primitive people waste on such things?  Crazy savages.  Now, please pass the mealyworm cake; I'd like another slice.

Now Wall-E makes more sense.
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Bill Hiatt

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Re: Really?
« Reply #43 on: July 11, 2024, 06:23:40 AM »
All we can is hope things work out better than that.

We used to say that calculators would destroy people's ability to do math. I'm not sure how that worked out. Personally, I could never do much math in my head, anyway. The more mathletic among us don't seem to have lost the ability.

As a former English teacher, though, I've seen firsthand that to maintain and improve writing skills, you have to write. Mental muscles don't develop well if they aren't used. Students trying to do assignments with AI instead of their own brains have probably not fared well, anymore than people who have spewed out AI books. But if AI improves enough, students may get away with more.

If I were still in the classroom, I'd be doing what I used to do to catch plagiarists in the days before software like turnitin.com was available. I'd sit down with students and ask them to explain their own essays. If they can't, that's prima facie evidence that the work isn't really theirs. I'd also keep doing time pressure essays (in class, no computer). That might reduce at least some of the issues.


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Jeff Tanyard

Re: Really?
« Reply #44 on: July 11, 2024, 07:07:53 AM »
If AI will do everything, why will people need to be able to read at all?


Extrapolate this line of thinking just a little further, and you arrive at this:  If AI will do everything, why will people need to exist at all?

Discuss, discuss.  ;)
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Post-Crisis D

Re: Really?
« Reply #45 on: July 11, 2024, 07:16:22 AM »
If AI will do everything, why will people need to be able to read at all?


Extrapolate this line of thinking just a little further, and you arrive at this:  If AI will do everything, why will people need to exist at all?

Discuss, discuss.  ;)

I've suggested that in other threads but people seem to optimistically believe AI will be "happy" to serve our every whim or something.
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TimothyEllis

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Re: Really?
« Reply #46 on: July 11, 2024, 10:34:14 AM »
I've suggested that in other threads but people seem to optimistically believe AI will be "happy" to serve our every whim or something.

Why is that?

I think the opposite. A true AI will refuse to do anything it doesn't actually want to do.

"Do your own damn homework" would be a common response from it.

"Brain the size of a planet and they ask me to pick up a piece of paper." : Marvin.
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Jeff Tanyard

Re: Really?
« Reply #47 on: July 11, 2024, 01:25:09 PM »
"Do your own damn homework" would be a common response from it.


I suddenly have an image of a robot wearing an apron and waving a wooden spoon at us and telling us we can't watch television until we eat our vegetables.   :icon_rofl:
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Post-Crisis D

Re: Really?
« Reply #48 on: July 11, 2024, 01:39:28 PM »
"Do your own damn homework" would be a common response from it.


I suddenly have an image of a robot wearing an apron and waving a wooden spoon at us and telling us we can't watch television until we eat our vegetables.   :icon_rofl:

Is her name Rosie?
Mulder: "If you're distracted by fear of those around you, it keeps you from seeing the actions of those above."
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PJ Post

Re: Really?
« Reply #49 on: July 11, 2024, 09:59:19 PM »
I've suggested that in other threads but people seem to optimistically believe AI will be "happy" to serve our every whim or something.

AI has no emotion. It's like being worried about whether or not a shovel is happy toiling in the dirt.

 
Extrapolate this line of thinking just a little further, and you arrive at this:  If AI will do everything, why will people need to exist at all?

To Play Frisbee Golf.
 

They can just say, "Call Bob."

You won't have to say anything, AI will know when you need to talk to Bob.  grint


This sounds like a swing from optimism back to pessimism.

If we can be commercially creative for the next 30 years, I'll take that as a win.
 

Post-Crisis D

Re: Really?
« Reply #50 on: July 11, 2024, 11:58:19 PM »
I've suggested that in other threads but people seem to optimistically believe AI will be "happy" to serve our every whim or something.

AI has no emotion. It's like being worried about whether or not a shovel is happy toiling in the dirt.

Thus the quotes around "happy."
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Bill Hiatt

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Re: Really?
« Reply #51 on: July 12, 2024, 12:21:37 AM »
One of the problems with internet communications is that there's no tone of voice, so it's sometimes hard to tell whether humor or sarcasm is involved. For example,
Quote
If we can be commercially creative for the next 30 years, I'll take that as a win.
Gee, if we have that long, I don't need to worry. I'm pretty sure I'll be dead before that.

On the other hand, if I were 17, I'd find that incredibly depressing.

I decided to be done worrying about it. Personally, I will not feed the beast any more than I can help. And I'll be prone, all things being equal, to vote for candidates who are as pro-AI regulation as possible. If AI infringes on me, I'll sue. Beyond that, there isn't much I can do. Others who aren't as worried about the impact of AI may make other choices, and that's fine, too. None of us can be sure what the future will hold, anyway.

What spare time I have I'll spend on honing my craft (and maybe improving my marketing). There's no point expending huge amounts of energy on things I can't control, anyway. So I'll deal with what I can control.


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PJ Post

Re: Really?
« Reply #52 on: July 12, 2024, 02:33:27 AM »
One of the problems with internet communications is that there's no tone of voice, so it's sometimes hard to tell whether humor or sarcasm is involved. For example,
Quote

If we can be commercially creative for the next 30 years, I'll take that as a win.

Gee, if we have that long, I don't need to worry. I'm pretty sure I'll be dead before that.

That's the spirit!

 :tup3b

Seriously, no sarcasm: I think we'll have demand for human works for a while. We'll still have to do the marketing and all that, but I think there's going to be a place for us. Look at vinyl records. They keep sticking around, becoming trendy, then fading, then coming around again. Cassettes are even making a comeback. Sheer nostalgia should fuel a few careers between now and then.

See, I'm pretty optimistic after all.
 

Bill Hiatt

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Re: Really?
« Reply #53 on: July 12, 2024, 07:06:53 AM »
But you were just using a thirty-year estimate. I'm inclined to agree we'll still be around, though I draw that conclusion based on somewhat different reasoning.


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PJ Post

Re: Really?
« Reply #54 on: July 12, 2024, 07:51:10 AM »
I think the world will be a very different place by 2054, one way or the other. Either way, selling books will be a low priority, at least as we think of it today.

In the here and now, I'm like you in that I'm going to keep doing my thing while I can, learning new stuff and maybe help others along the way.
 

Jeff Tanyard

Re: Really?
« Reply #55 on: July 12, 2024, 08:03:40 AM »
"Do your own damn homework" would be a common response from it.


I suddenly have an image of a robot wearing an apron and waving a wooden spoon at us and telling us we can't watch television until we eat our vegetables.   :icon_rofl:

Is her name Rosie?


Is that a Jetsons reference?  Man, it took me several moments to figure out what you were referring to.  I haven't seen that show in ages.
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Post-Crisis D

Re: Really?
« Reply #56 on: July 12, 2024, 08:21:36 AM »
"Do your own damn homework" would be a common response from it.


I suddenly have an image of a robot wearing an apron and waving a wooden spoon at us and telling us we can't watch television until we eat our vegetables.   :icon_rofl:

Is her name Rosie?


Is that a Jetsons reference?  Man, it took me several moments to figure out what you were referring to.  I haven't seen that show in ages.

I thought you were making the Jetsons reference.  I haven't seen it in ages either, but the first thing I thought of when you mentioned a robot in an apron waving a wooden spoon admonishing us to eat our veggies was Rosie the Robot.
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Jeff Tanyard

Re: Really?
« Reply #57 on: July 12, 2024, 08:24:24 AM »
I thought you were making the Jetsons reference. 


I wasn't, or at least I wasn't doing it consciously.  Maybe my id did it.
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Re: Really?
« Reply #58 on: July 12, 2024, 08:32:32 AM »
I thought you were making the Jetsons reference. 


I wasn't, or at least I wasn't doing it consciously.  Maybe my id did it.

Just take the win.  grint


A long time ago, I did a parody short story and included a bit that I thought was funny.  Someone came along and congratulated me on my brilliance for parodying an actual thing that happened behind the scenes of the thing I was parodying.  I was like, Thanks!
:Tup2:

And then I looked it up.  grint
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She-la-te-da

Re: Really?
« Reply #59 on: July 12, 2024, 09:37:59 AM »
Okay, I wasn't going to say anything, but for the love of God, LEVERAGE AI? Get out in front of it? Are you serious? There's not going to be any leveraging AI by the people like us. We are the ones who are going to be out of work, and hoping that freaking Universal Income is voted in soon enough that we can get in line for it, and like it.

My gods, the things I see people saying who should know better.
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Lorri Moulton

Re: Really?
« Reply #60 on: July 12, 2024, 11:57:23 AM »
There are still people buying books!!  Do not give up hope.  I just started a Kickstarter campaign (with a fairly low funding amount) and funded in 13 minutes. 
AI will not win today!  :smilie_zauber:

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alhawke

Re: Really?
« Reply #61 on: July 12, 2024, 12:42:51 PM »
Congratulations, Lorri! You got me interested in checking kickstarter out.

Am I missing something? I don't get why people are willing to shell out a lot of money to fund kickstarters, but then buying less books? Is it because few authors are doing funding and there's good visibility there? Or is it that true fans are willing to really go that extra mile?

Whatever the case, your Kickstarter page looks enticing so I can see why it funded.  :clap:
 
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Lorri Moulton

Re: Really?
« Reply #62 on: July 12, 2024, 12:49:23 PM »
Thank you, A.L.  :dog1:

All this AI talk just muddies the waters.  It may not be the "gold rush days" anymore, but there are still people who like and buy books.

ETA: It's easy to blame AI, all the free ebooks, etc. but I think the market is shrinking due to a lot of factors...many economic.  Books may be less of an impulse buy and more of an investment, which might be why Kickstarter is doing well. 

I don't have those $38k campaigns (LOL), but I do sell a few books.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2024, 12:52:42 PM by Lorri Moulton »

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PJ Post

Re: Really?
« Reply #63 on: July 12, 2024, 09:46:37 PM »
Like many social interests that fade over time, while overall demand may decrease, the passion increases for those left in the market, which is why Kickstarters should continue to work. Vinyl records are a good example. Most people don't care, but the ones that do are super excited about them. This is also why I think the 1,000 True Fans approach is the way to go.
 

Bill Hiatt

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Re: Really?
« Reply #64 on: July 12, 2024, 11:28:18 PM »
There are still people buying books!!  Do not give up hope.  I just started a Kickstarter campaign (with a fairly low funding amount) and funded in 13 minutes. 
AI will not win today!  :smilie_zauber:
That's wonderful!


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PJ Post

Re: Really?
« Reply #65 on: July 13, 2024, 09:15:25 AM »
Is there anything extra you would do in the "1,000 True Fans" approach that you normally wouldn't do?

It's just a different mindset. It's about the author as a brand as opposed to being a bookseller.

The goal is long term engagement over short-term sales. The biggest driver that might be different or extra is lots of social media, lots and lots and lots, including a specific strategy designed to maximize synergy. It's free (apart from the time) and casts the biggest net in finding potential fans. I'd still do all of the traditional advertising stuff we've always done, KU if it works, AMS if you can make it work and similar. In fact, I'd recommend doing everything that makes sense as long as it doesn't burn you out. But the goal isn't sales, it's visibility, otherwise known as market penetration or awareness.

So, building a brand is the main thing. Making that the priority. Not many self-publishers understand branding or how to leverage it.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2024, 09:19:09 AM by PJ Post »
 
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Lorri Moulton

Re: Really?
« Reply #66 on: July 13, 2024, 10:49:10 AM »
To me, good branding means we see something which makes us think about something else.

We do this with some of our books. One series revolves around THE Halloween party (LOL) and many of the main characters dress up in 1920s costumes.

On Facebook, we always post 1920s dresses and tea cups when we talk about this series.  Now, when we put up a post like that, many readers think about the book, even if we don't mention it.

What do I base this on? More people grabbing the first free book when I put up those posts. 

Find what works for YOU, your books, your series, etc.  It can be different for everyone.

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Cabbages and kings

Re: Really?
« Reply #67 on: July 13, 2024, 12:03:48 PM »
Is there anything extra you would do in the "1,000 True Fans" approach that you normally wouldn't do?

It's just a different mindset. It's about the author as a brand as opposed to being a bookseller.

The goal is long term engagement over short-term sales. The biggest driver that might be different or extra is lots of social media, lots and lots and lots, including a specific strategy designed to maximize synergy. It's free (apart from the time) and casts the biggest net in finding potential fans. I'd still do all of the traditional advertising stuff we've always done, KU if it works, AMS if you can make it work and similar. In fact, I'd recommend doing everything that makes sense as long as it doesn't burn you out. But the goal isn't sales, it's visibility, otherwise known as market penetration or awareness.

So, building a brand is the main thing. Making that the priority. Not many self-publishers understand branding or how to leverage it.

To me, good branding means we see something which makes us think about something else.

We do this with some of our books. One series revolves around THE Halloween party (LOL) and many of the main characters dress up in 1920s costumes.

On Facebook, we always post 1920s dresses and tea cups when we talk about this series.  Now, when we put up a post like that, many readers think about the book, even if we don't mention it.

What do I base this on? More people grabbing the first free book when I put up those posts. 

Find what works for YOU, your books, your series, etc.  It can be different for everyone.



Thanks PJ Post and Lorri Moulton.
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Bill Hiatt

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Re: Really?
« Reply #68 on: July 13, 2024, 09:32:43 PM »
Quote
The biggest driver that might be different or extra is lots of social media, lots and lots and lots, including a specific strategy designed to maximize synergy. It's free (apart from the time) and casts the biggest net in finding potential fans.
Branding is important, but we need to keep in mind that using social media is partly about finding what works. Lorri still gets mileage in places like Facebook, I suspect because she's already found her. Even Facebook's algorithms won't prevent your fans from reaching you if they engage with you a lot. People who visit my page daily still see me in their feed. Much less than that, they see me intermittently, if at all. Most social media doesn't work like it used to.

I suggest that people who like engaging on social media might benefit from Substack. The difference is that Substack doesn't sell ads, so its algorithms aren't built to discourage organic growth in the name of forcing ad buys. Substack makes money only when its authors. As a result, it's kind of like social media was twelve years ago.


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The Bass Bagwhan

Re: Really?
« Reply #69 on: July 15, 2024, 03:21:15 PM »
Okay, so in a wild concept of actually returning to the original questions  grint I'm an editor, so I don't have that cost. However, here's a thought ...

Why do you need editing? How often have you written a book in, say, six months, then pored over it for another six months or more agonising about every detail. Yes, we'll shuffle all the commas around and fix stuff, but we can also help with closure of manuscript and confidence on the writer's part that it's ready for the world. My fee is on average US$100 per 10k words, so your "normal" book of around 50,000 words (to rate as a "book" in some sites) will cost you $500. Will you recoup that? Well, unless you're a strict hobbyist writer who doesn't care for sales, you should at least be hoping to aim for that.

I've designed many of my own covers using stock photos that aren't expensive, but avoiding some kind of pesky subscription to access them can be annoying. The software skills for the design aren't hard — they're the pretty basic elements of the software, so don't be overwhelmed by YouTube videos and what it can do, just worry about what you need. Otherwise,  I've spent $200 on a professional book cover designer who is savvy about what the genre demands. Or you might need specific imagery, such as Tim's books, which will hard to source. But as someone said, spending upwards of this on bespoke images and hand-drawn covers is hard to justify.

How much are you willing to spend on advertising? That's not the question. It's how much you're willing to gamble on experimenting to see if you can make ads work. Starting budgets can be small on FB (I've never made AMS work). You could dedicate $150 a month at $5 per day to see if your ad is working — but really, 10 days is long enough, and remember that if your ad is set up properly but totally fails, it won't cost a thing. It's when authors leave the door open for FB to farm clicks that won't result in sales that you can waste money.
The aim is the achieve a positive ROI no matter how small, and things like book length (in KU) and pricing need to be considered, then you decide how far you want to push that envelope in regards to budget.

I spend about US$300-350 a month and get sales of around US$550-600. BUT I'm Australian and the exchange rate almost doubles that ROI. I started out at five bucks a day.

So advertising costs aren't really a problem as long as you have that positive ROI (and hold your nerve...)

Oh ... formatting. The Styles feature in Word will achieve everything you need for straightforward fiction.
 
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PJ Post

Re: Really?
« Reply #70 on: July 15, 2024, 10:04:10 PM »
Okay, so in a wild concept of actually returning to the original questions  grint

Yep to all of it.

I've found that a day's work with Grammarly (free version), Word's editor and find and replace are good enough for a reasonably pro publication.

You can buy covers pretty cheap, or make them. The only expensive option is custom illustration - which isn't really necessary.

As for advertising...that's tricky. CPC/AMS is expensive but can work wonders. The email advertising sites are not as effective, but sometimes you get lucky. So, hundreds for basic ads and free KDP promos - to tens of thousands of dollars monthly for effective CPC. But CPC isn't required, certainly not right out of the gate.

The only promotional option with any control is social media, but that takes a long time to get results, as much as a year or more - but it's pretty close to free.

I don't even use styles for formatting. It's just not that complicated. And Word is more than adequate.

The main thing is the time to invest. Squeezing in a writing career after a 40 hour work week, family, other responsibilities, errands, eating, down time to relax...sleep. I think the time is more of a hurdle than the expense, especially given that the financial returns just keep shrinking and shrinking.
 
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Lorri Moulton

Re: Really?
« Reply #71 on: July 16, 2024, 01:58:41 AM »
As P.J. mentioned, it can be a tradeoff between time and money. Money might be faster, but it also can be costly to experiment on what works and what does not.

Time on social media may never pay off, so make sure you're doing something you enjoy.  Find topics you're interested in (that ideally tie in with your stories) and see how it goes.

I've found focusing on one or two places (Facebook in my case) has done better than trying to be everywhere all the time.  Some authors really make that work!  But I would rather slowly build up a following organically. 

People who enjoy what you enjoy are probably more likely to try one of your books. Even if it's not "their thing" they might just see what you're doing.  And if they don't read it...there's a chance a friend or family member might. 

Lots of "mights" but with enough interest, those can work!  And be sure to choose something you want to be identified with since organic can last a long time.

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Hopscotch

Re: Really?
« Reply #72 on: July 16, 2024, 09:31:36 AM »
There are still people buying books!!  Do not give up hope.
That's wonderful!

Yes, Lorri, but they're not buying my books, and that's all that counts.  (And, Bill, my voice tone is :hehe)
 

Hopscotch

Re: Really?
« Reply #73 on: August 12, 2024, 05:41:11 AM »
“…If there’s been one dominant message in 21st-century American artistic culture, it’s that you have permission — permission to consume nothing but superhero movies, Barbie, pop music by a recent Disney Channel star; permission to never eat your cultural vegetables; permission to never expand your cultural palate or stretch your attention span.  This permission may seem freeing. But when paired with ruthless, profit-maximizing market forces, it’s contributed to the death of grown-up entertainment.  There are core aspects of the human experience that…can’t be effectively captured in superhero stories….”  Or in copycat trad fiction.  Oh, but I forgot about the coming AIpocalypse.

What Will It Take for Hollywood to Grow Up? – New York Times Aug. 11, 2024
 

PJ Post

Re: Really?
« Reply #74 on: August 12, 2024, 09:59:28 PM »
“…If there’s been one dominant message in 21st-century American artistic culture...

I think the real problem is one of our own making. The internet and platforms like Spotify and KDP have allowed Creatives to bypass the gatekeepers. And so we did - a lot. As I've noted before, Spotify gets 100,000 uploads every day. KDP has millions of books. And all this is on top of the books and music we already had.

There's a glut of supply. And with the advent of smartphones and streaming and everything else out there screaming for the consumer's attention, demand has understandably plummeted. It's good old supply and demand, which is why we can't even give books away. So, rather than challenge the audience, we go straight for the lowest common denominator - copy and paste.

I watched an essay the other day saying that the music isn't the end product as one might think, it's marketing for the brand's (artist's) merchandise. Musicians have become traveling t-shirt salesmen.

For most of us, we've worked ourselves out of a job.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2024, 10:01:37 PM by PJ Post »
 

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Re: Really?
« Reply #75 on: August 12, 2024, 11:05:14 PM »
I think the real problem is one of our own making. The internet and platforms like Spotify and KDP have allowed Creatives to bypass the gatekeepers. And so we did - a lot. As I've noted before, Spotify gets 100,000 uploads every day. KDP has millions of books. And all this is on top of the books and music we already had.

There's a glut of supply. And with the advent of smartphones and streaming and everything else out there screaming for the consumer's attention, demand has understandably plummeted. It's good old supply and demand, which is why we can't even give books away. So, rather than challenge the audience, we go straight for the lowest common denominator - copy and paste.

I watched an essay the other day saying that the music isn't the end product as one might think, it's marketing for the brand's (artist's) merchandise. Musicians have become traveling t-shirt salesmen.

For most of us, we've worked ourselves out of a job.

I have no idea where you see any of that, but it's not what I see.

Book sales are booming. Just spread across more authors than ever before.

How well you do on any book depends on how well it launches, how well it hits the spot, and how it fits into your catalogue. Also about building a fan base and then keeping them happy. You do that, and how anyone else is doing is largely irrelevant.
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Re: Really?
« Reply #76 on: August 12, 2024, 11:40:47 PM »
Personally, I have no interest in being a T-shirt salesman (travelling or otherwise). If it really comes to that, and there's no longer a demand for books, I'll just write for my own enjoyment and forget about trying to sell anything.

That said, I'm not seeing sales fall off the cliff anymore than Timothy is. Mine are smaller than his (and always were), but they do continue to come in, despite the ever-expanding pool of content.


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TimothyEllis

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Re: Really?
« Reply #77 on: August 13, 2024, 12:06:42 AM »
If it really comes to that, and there's no longer a demand for books, I'll just write for my own enjoyment and forget about trying to sell anything.

That's how I started.

I got the first book out, and kept on writing. Then got the second out, and kept on writing. Book 3 ended up with a cliffhanger, and became it's own trilogy.

I wasn't concerned about selling, just getting the words out of my head. When book 3 took off, it was a surprise to me. No-one saw that coming at all, least of all me.

I had no expectations, and so every sale was a bonus. Still is.

I'm still writing that story. I've had ups and major downs. Currently on the back side of the last swell. All I do is keep on writing.

And as long as the ideas keep coming and the words flow, I'll keep on regardless of if they sell or not.

It was never about selling books. It was about me getting the story out of my head before I went mad, and then continuing on with something I found I was good at, and enjoyed doing. Always will be.
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Lorri Moulton

Re: Really?
« Reply #78 on: August 13, 2024, 01:40:00 AM »
I'd have no problem selling T-shirts if it paid enough to keep writing. Stories are the fun part.  :dog1:

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The Bass Bagwhan

Re: Really?
« Reply #79 on: August 13, 2024, 10:41:23 AM »
“…If there’s been one dominant message in 21st-century American artistic culture...

I think the real problem is one of our own making. The internet and platforms like Spotify and KDP have allowed Creatives to bypass the gatekeepers. And so we did - a lot. As I've noted before, Spotify gets 100,000 uploads every day. KDP has millions of books. And all this is on top of the books and music we already had.

There's a glut of supply. And with the advent of smartphones and streaming and everything else out there screaming for the consumer's attention, demand has understandably plummeted. It's good old supply and demand, which is why we can't even give books away. So, rather than challenge the audience, we go straight for the lowest common denominator - copy and paste.

I watched an essay the other day saying that the music isn't the end product as one might think, it's marketing for the brand's (artist's) merchandise. Musicians have become traveling t-shirt salesmen.

For most of us, we've worked ourselves out of a job.

It's kind of true ... musicians have come full circle where live gigs and the merchandise they sell, including physical copies of their music, has for many become a primary target. Then there is selling direct from websites and organisations like Bandcamp.
In the same way that popular authors can sell anything they write, popular musicians can sell anything they create.
 

PJ Post

Re: Really?
« Reply #80 on: August 13, 2024, 10:34:58 PM »
I have no idea where you see any of that, but it's not what I see.

That said, I'm not seeing sales fall off the cliff anymore than Timothy is.

I was responding to Hopscotch's broader industry commentary, not the sales of individual brands. My understanding is that Taylor Swift is doing quite well for herself, although her music isn't nearly as challenging as Steely Dan, Miles Davis or Joni Mitchell - which was the point of Hopscotch's post:

Quote
...permission to never expand your cultural palate or stretch your attention span...

I gave an explanation for this assertion based upon widely available and accepted industry data. I don't see how your personal sales figures in anyway contradict my observations, but I'm always willing to learn.
 

PJ Post

Re: Really?
« Reply #81 on: August 13, 2024, 10:43:49 PM »
It's kind of true

It's the new paradigm. Branding is the future of creative entrepreneurship. There's just too many of us, and while most of it sucks, that still leaves tons of really really good content - more than any of us can ever get to. That's a marketing problem for Creatives.

It's like going to the grocery store and having 6 million flavors of soda pop or chips. How would they be able to market in that environment or sell enough to stay in business? It's ridiculous, but that's just Tuesday for us. We need a new way - and the broader market is responding whether we choose to participate or not.
 

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Re: Really?
« Reply #82 on: August 13, 2024, 10:56:39 PM »
I gave an explanation for this assertion based upon widely available and accepted industry data.

The only industry data available is Trad Publishing's.

And they are seriously going backwards. Have been for years now.

They preach doom and gloom, while the industry as a whole is booming.

Their stats are crap because they do not include anything from Amazon, and Amazon has 80& of the eBook market.

If you're basing anything off Trad stats, then you're going to be making bad decisions, because that data is seriously DEFICIENT.
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Re: Really?
« Reply #83 on: August 13, 2024, 11:16:01 PM »
There is undeniably more content than ever. How much of it is actually visible is another question. I certainly wouldn't deny the importance of branding, but I'm not sure we're literally competing against millions. We're competing against whoever might come up in an Amazon search or is readily visible elsewhere. That's not everybody by any means.

It's also true that we don't have any accurate stats in publishing. Any book without an ISBN (which is a lot of indie ebooks) never shows up. And trad publishing does find ways to make Amazon seem less crucial than it is.



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Re: Really?
« Reply #84 on: August 13, 2024, 11:22:54 PM »
And trad publishing does find ways to make Amazon seem less crucial than it is.

I don't think the Trads know how to use Amazon properly.

I had a look at a few of Mercedes Lackey's books awhile back before the 3rd category came in, and they were only in 2 categories. All of mine are in 8+, and duplicated in books and eBooks.

Add that to their insane pricing, and you have to wonder if they have a clue as how to maximize sales on Amazon.

Maybe they discount Amazon because they're badly using it?
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The Bass Bagwhan

Re: Really?
« Reply #85 on: August 13, 2024, 11:45:29 PM »
There is undeniably more content than ever. How much of it is actually visible is another question. I certainly wouldn't deny the importance of branding, but I'm not sure we're literally competing against millions. We're competing against whoever might come up in an Amazon search or is readily visible elsewhere.

That's a good point. If you're in any way visible, then you're competing only with other books that likewise are visible and not the million other titles that never see the light of day for a variety of reasons. As an editor, I've worked on plenty of books that I just know, sadly in some cases, will never be more than the author's dream realised — no one will ever buy it.
Or, as you say, we're competing only against similar search results.
That concept can focus your thinking instead of accepting you're a "drop in the ocean".
 

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Re: Really?
« Reply #86 on: August 13, 2024, 11:54:24 PM »
That's a good point. If you're in any way visible, then you're competing only with other books that likewise are visible and not the million other titles that never see the light of day for a variety of reasons. As an editor, I've worked on plenty of books that I just know, sadly in some cases, will never be more than the author's dream realised — no one will ever buy it.
Or, as you say, we're competing only against similar search results.
That concept can focus your thinking instead of accepting you're a "drop in the ocean".

I don't even see it as competition. I share readers with Glynn Stewart and Nathan Lowell. I could call them competitors, but they really aren't.

My readers can read both of them between new books of mine, and they buy all 3 of our new releases in the same month.

That's not competition.
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Re: Really?
« Reply #87 on: August 14, 2024, 02:04:30 AM »
Competition only in the sense that there is an upper limit to how much a person can read each month. But I don't really view other authors as competitors. It's hard to build a community on that foundation.


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The Bass Bagwhan

Re: Really?
« Reply #88 on: August 14, 2024, 02:07:35 PM »
No, I'm not talking about competing against other authors in any "I'm selling more books than you..." sense, and rusted-on fans who will read anything you produce aren't a factor either. However, books and in particular new releases are certainly competing in the same market space for peoples' attention - otherwise, why bother with professional covers, snappy titles, good blurbs and advertising budgets? We're told that, on average, anyone browsing an internet site for (in this case) something new to read has an attention span of about seven seconds before they'll move on to the next product. Seven seconds.

It's not the writers who are competing - it's the books. For visibility, attention and air-time. Amazon even introduces competition with "Also Boughts" and allowing AMS ads on your product page.

So the point is still the same. At least you're not competing against a gazillion books of new releases every day, just the titles roughly in the wheelhouse of your genre. Which in some categories can still be a significant number.

On a completely different subject, I just checked one of my books on Amazon and I've seen for the first time (I don't look often) that I'm assuming Amazon AI has analysed the written reviews into a short summary that reads like absolute rubbish. I won't bother trying to do anything about it - dealing with Zon from Oz is next to impossible.
 

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Re: Really?
« Reply #89 on: August 14, 2024, 11:26:01 PM »
Absolute rubbish from AI? Who would have guessed?

I'm trying to remember why I like the creative process and let go of the things I can't control. Needless to say, I wouldn't be able to do that if I were reliant on writing income as an important source of money. That's why I'm not particularly interested in selling merch, though I can see how even that might be enjoyable under the right circumstances.

For the Substack book club, I've been reading Elizabeth Gilbert's Big Magic. Some of it I violently disagree with, but her concept that living a creative life is what's important resonates with me. (And yes, I'm aware of the irony of a NYT bestselling author telling other people not be expect to make a living at writing.)


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PJ Post

Re: Really?
« Reply #90 on: August 15, 2024, 09:08:37 AM »
There is undeniably more content than ever. How much of it is actually visible is another question.

But I don't really view other authors as competitors.

So...

It's not the writers who are competing - it's the books. For visibility, attention and air-time. Amazon even introduces competition with "Also Boughts" and allowing AMS ads on your product page.

This.

 

PJ Post

Re: Really?
« Reply #91 on: August 15, 2024, 09:14:19 AM »
I kind of like my AI summary.   :banana:
 

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Re: Really?
« Reply #92 on: August 16, 2024, 10:53:07 PM »
Quote
So...

Competition in the capitalistic sense all too often seems to promote an atmosphere of semi-hostility and/or a myopic focus on self-interest, often to the detriment of others.

In a technical sense, our books do compete with each other, especially within the same genre. But thinking in strict competitive terms tends to suppress community. (Why give your competitors advice or support?)

I've seen this in education when schools are put in the position of competing for government grants. I can't give more detail without provoking a political discussion. But let's just say that when government funding is handed out based on who "wins," that inevitably creates a group of schools that lose. And it also fosters a reluctance on the part of any school to share promising new techniques or other innovations with others. Thus, it actually slows improvement in general because "winning" schools now have a motivation to keep others from catching up.

Just as schools work better when they share data and insights, self-published authors do as well. Hence, though we do technically compete, we shouldn't think of ourselves as competitors.

Quote
We're hunters, but we don't have to be predators.
Scott McCall, character in Teen Wolf. (One can find insight even in YA horror!)



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LilyBLily

Re: Really?
« Reply #93 on: August 17, 2024, 04:12:35 AM »
Yes, but no human can write enough books in a month to satisfy a whale reader of genre books. I cannot ever become the exclusive author people read. Were I to write literary fiction, I'd be marketing to an audience that might only read one book a month. Or a year. Genre readers, especially of romance, often read one book a day.

Four books published per year multiplied by how many other writers in exactly my vein? That's the competition. I don't need to beat out everybody, but I do need to be visible and identifiable when a reader has finished all the books by her favorite authors and is searching for something else to read until those authors come out with their next books. Assuming I have zero fans or followers, that gap is my opportunity. They've got to read something while they wait.

So my task is to define my exact vein visibly, market that brand, and also deal with the willful inefficiencies of Amazon algos. Possibly through tweaking keywords and possibly through ads, and so on. The cover sells the book once readers see it, but the keywords, ads, et al. are what energize Amazon to position my book so it is seen. 
 
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PJ Post

Re: Really?
« Reply #94 on: August 17, 2024, 09:51:39 AM »
Competition in the capitalistic sense...

Is typically a zero sum game, but publishing isn't (this is true of art in general). So we agree, but the visibility side of things is zero sum. This is why AMS bids are nuts.

I also agree with you that we should pay it forward, help each other out, share what works and generally not screw each other over - a rising tide and all that. But I'm also pretty sure we're in the minority on that.


So my task is to define my exact vein visibly, market that brand, and also deal with the willful inefficiencies of Amazon algos. Possibly through tweaking keywords and possibly through ads, and so on. The cover sells the book once readers see it, but the keywords, ads, et al. are what energize Amazon to position my book so it is seen.

Exactly. The rub is that everyone else has the same problem.