Author Topic: Is this perceived as inherently racist?  (Read 9889 times)

Mylius Fox

Is this perceived as inherently racist?
« on: September 26, 2018, 01:55:23 AM »
I have a Southern character who said "cotton picking" in a line of dialogue today, and I'm just curious if the phrase is tainted by racist connotations in the eyes of the general public. Does it bother you, or think it would others?
 
The following users thanked this post: idontknowyet

Mark Gardner

Re: Is this perceived as inherently racist?
« Reply #1 on: September 26, 2018, 01:57:54 AM »
I have a Southern character who said "cotton picking" in a line of dialogue today, and I'm just curious if the phrase is tainted by racist connotations in the eyes of the general public. Does it bother you, or think it would others?
someone will always be offended, so go with your initial writing.
 
The following users thanked this post: idontknowyet

Anarchist

Re: Is this perceived as inherently racist?
« Reply #2 on: September 26, 2018, 02:08:54 AM »
Does it bother you, or think it would others?


It doesn't bother me in the slightest. It adds color.
"The first lesson of economics is scarcity: there is never enough of anything to fully satisfy all those who want it. The first lesson of politics is to disregard the first lesson of economics.” – Thomas Sowell

"The State is an institution run by gangs of murderers, plunderers and thieves, surrounded by willing executioners, propagandists, sycophants, crooks, liars, clowns, charlatans, dupes and useful idiots—an institution that dirties and taints everything it touches.” - Hans Hoppe

"Virtue is more to be feared than vice, because its excesses are not subject to the regulation of conscience." - Adam Smith

Nothing that requires the labor of others is a basic human right.

I keep a stiff upper lip and shoot from the hip. - AC/DC
 
The following users thanked this post: idontknowyet

guest14

  • Guest
Re: Is this perceived as inherently racist?
« Reply #3 on: September 26, 2018, 02:15:53 AM »
This comes up a lot and the same answer seems to pervade through all the PC.

You are a writer and your characters must be authentic if they are going to resonate with the reader. Nothing gratuitous, but if it belongs there it belongs. Endof.
 
The following users thanked this post: idontknowyet

Max

Re: Is this perceived as inherently racist?
« Reply #4 on: September 26, 2018, 02:17:52 AM »
It's natural for your character. Use it.

My father picked cotton. This brings back memories. Thank you. :)
 

WasAnn

Re: Is this perceived as inherently racist?
« Reply #5 on: September 26, 2018, 02:44:20 AM »
That phrase was used in frustration at me so many times during my childhood. As the product of a family that farmed cotton for generations, I think it's just a southern thing.


Science Fiction is my game.
 
The following users thanked this post: idontknowyet

TimothyEllis

  • Forum Owner
  • Administrator
  • Series unlocked
  • ******
  • Posts: 6465
  • Thanked: 2522 times
  • Gender: Male
  • Earth Galaxy core, 2618
    • The Hunter Imperium Universe
Re: Is this perceived as inherently racist?
« Reply #6 on: September 26, 2018, 02:46:26 AM »
Also something I used early on in life. I dont know why I knew it, but at one stage it was common. Could have been from US tv shows.

I remember using Darn Tootin as well.
Genres: Space Opera/Fantasy/Cyberpunk, with elements of LitRPG and GameLit, with a touch of the Supernatural. Also Spiritual and Games.



Timothy Ellis Kindle Author page. | Join the Hunter Legacy mailing list | The Hunter Imperium Universe on Facebook. | Forum Promo Page.
 
The following users thanked this post: idontknowyet

Becca Mills

Re: Is this perceived as inherently racist?
« Reply #7 on: September 26, 2018, 03:27:40 AM »
I think it's one of those terms that has complicated roots, some racially neutral, some not, and that's in the process of coming to be seen as racist. I'd put it in the "use with caution" category myself.
Recently Read ...


















 
The following users thanked this post: quinning, idontknowyet, AtoZ, Alix

Shoe

Re: Is this perceived as inherently racist?
« Reply #8 on: September 26, 2018, 03:38:44 AM »
It's very racist. Unless you're painting the character as a buffoon, I wouldn't use it.
Martin Luther King: "Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity."
 
The following users thanked this post: idontknowyet, Deleted

spin52

Re: Is this perceived as inherently racist?
« Reply #9 on: September 26, 2018, 03:45:34 AM »
That phrase was used in frustration at me so many times during my childhood. As the product of a family that farmed cotton for generations, I think it's just a southern thing.
I would think it depends on the context. I grew up in the far northwest corner of the US, and the phrase 'just a cotton picking minute', meaning 'I don't really agree with you,' was very common. Nothing to do with actual cotton, as far as I know.
     


Traditional mysteries with a dash of humor -- no cats, no cupcakes, no covens.
 
The following users thanked this post: idontknowyet

guest14

  • Guest
Re: Is this perceived as inherently racist?
« Reply #10 on: September 26, 2018, 03:52:06 AM »
It's only racist if it's in your mind to think it so. In which case is it the phrase itself or your mind that is the cause of your perturbation?

I've often listened to black people refer to themselves and each other in the vernacular without any hesitation or concerns about being PC.  We lose so much of our sense of humour when we look for offence at every turn. I'm sure it's something we can all grow out of. Sure, there is hatred and racism, but it's not as widespread as you think it is when you take away the 'fashion offended' of our times. (I realize this might be considered offensive to some - feel free to hive me off to the dungeon if required).
 
The following users thanked this post: idontknowyet, RCoots

guest14

  • Guest
Re: Is this perceived as inherently racist?
« Reply #11 on: September 26, 2018, 04:13:18 AM »
On the other hand, Brooklyn Nine-Nine has shown it's possible to be funny without resorting to bigotry.

Now I haven't got a clue to what you are referring to which goes to show its relevant to only people who its relevant to.

The way that marginalised communities refer to themselves is no excuse for us to do so. I know several people with cerebral palsy who use the c-word when referring to themselves, but that in no way gives me permission to use it to describe them.

There's a difference between respect and over familiarity. I'm not suggesting that if they say it's okay then it's ok for us to say it, but it would be hard for them to say it and then call the race card when you use it UNLESS you use it in an overtly racist way. We should tread on eggs less and keep to firm ground. That shouldn't mean we shy away from these things, but embrace them and turn them around so they mean something other than a derogatory term.

An example of how things turn.

In India in the days of the Raj, there were many Indians who worked hard to understand and embrace Western culture. Today they are still evident in a big way. Anyway, the point is that these Indians were set apart from the 'natives' in terms of the Empire's best and they referred to them as Western Oriental Gentlemen (WOGS) Which they indeed were. It was not a derogatory term then, it was identifying them apart and it was tinged with respect. (The Empire was never the baddie that it is made out to be). They had a lot of time for people who would work to improve their lot in life and that's how they viewed these people.

Back in the days when I was a lad I worked at London Airport which was not a stone's throw from Hillingdon, Hayes and West Drayton. We're talking the 60's and 70's and there had been a massive influx of Indians and Pakistani's fleeing persecution from Idi Amin. They quickly became termed as Packi's and Wogs which were of course meant in a derogatory fashion by the ignorant and unwashed. So, the word translated from a sign of respect to an insult purely on how it was inferred.

...and this is how an insult is born. Not by the word, but the inference and the interpretation of the meaning in the context given.

We should be insulted less and educated more. It would solve a lot of problems. (IMO)
 
The following users thanked this post: idontknowyet

Straker

Re: Is this perceived as inherently racist?
« Reply #12 on: September 26, 2018, 04:26:15 AM »
I guess I've always thought of "cotton pickin'" as one of those phases like "judas priest" and "john brown it" that were considered as a sort of milder substitute for true profanity or blasphemy.
 
The following users thanked this post: idontknowyet

guest14

  • Guest
Re: Is this perceived as inherently racist?
« Reply #13 on: September 26, 2018, 04:34:54 AM »
I think, Tobias, we're destined to disagree on this, considering the Empire invaded India, destroyed their economy and system of governance, installed itself as ruler, and incited violent riots and poisonings in protest.

We did a whole lot of deeply horrible things, and refusing to re-examine our own history and accept that they were bad doesn't help anyone.

 I intended the quote as anecdotal not a political incendiary device. However, you illuminate the issue perfectly.
 
The following users thanked this post: idontknowyet

WasAnn

Re: Is this perceived as inherently racist?
« Reply #14 on: September 26, 2018, 04:37:45 AM »
I guess I understand why people would consider it racist, but only if they had zero idea of anything actually done in the south. Everyone grew cotton or tobacco or both, long before slavery became common or actually got here. It was a poor people crop. Everyone picked it...like...everyone who wasn't rich.

Even when I was a kid, we went out and picked what was missed. It's just a thing.

As I have always understood it, it's because picking cotton is the most boring and slowest thing in the entire universe. Seriously, stars are formed faster than that. And since it's done when it's blazing hot outside, it's even worse. And to add just a little more torture to it, it's painful. So, it's an expression of frustration. It means, as far as I know, to give someone more time than a real minute.


Science Fiction is my game.
 
The following users thanked this post: idontknowyet, LilyBLily

WasAnn

Re: Is this perceived as inherently racist?
« Reply #15 on: September 26, 2018, 04:46:41 AM »


Science Fiction is my game.
 
The following users thanked this post: Post-Crisis D, idontknowyet, RPatton

guest120

  • Guest
Re: Is this perceived as inherently racist?
« Reply #16 on: September 26, 2018, 04:50:21 AM »
I don't have to like a character to appreciate they're authentic. Authenticity is one of the most important aspects in storytelling, IMO.
 
The following users thanked this post: idontknowyet

guest14

  • Guest
Re: Is this perceived as inherently racist?
« Reply #17 on: September 26, 2018, 04:57:44 AM »
I don't have to like a character to appreciate they're authentic. Authenticity is one of the most important aspects in storytelling, IMO.

I've been spitting feathers and getting steamed up over a character only to realize that I'm going to bed in half an hour and my blood pressure's through the roof and I've now got to go and have a chocolate drink to calm me down. Now THAT'S  good character presentation. I love that kind of book.
 :Grin:
 
The following users thanked this post: idontknowyet

R H Auslander

Re: Is this perceived as inherently racist?
« Reply #18 on: September 26, 2018, 05:10:38 AM »
I guess I understand why people would consider it racist, but only if they had zero idea of anything actually done in the south. Everyone grew cotton or tobacco or both, long before slavery became common or actually got here. It was a poor people crop. Everyone picked it...like...everyone who wasn't rich.

Even when I was a kid, we went out and picked what was missed. It's just a thing.

As I have always understood it, it's because picking cotton is the most boring and slowest thing in the entire universe. Seriously, stars are formed faster than that. And since it's done when it's blazing hot outside, it's even worse. And to add just a little more torture to it, it's painful. So, it's an expression of frustration. It means, as far as I know, to give someone more time than a real minute.


I disagree on the most boring work on a farm, first place goes to cultivating corn. Slow speed, a worn out JD B with hand clutch and brakes, and the 2 cylinder reducing your kidneys to mush all day long. Good thing was it was the first machine on which I learned how to tighten up the pitman arm to get movement without two full turns of the wheel. I also learned, actually was taught by one of the neighbor's field hands, how to read when doing those 500 kilometer rows of corn. Get the B set for the row, pick up the book from the left tool box, hold in left hand and read with one eye while the other eye watched the rows of young stalks pass down the right side of the main frame. Read Clemens, Tolstoy and a bunch of others in those years.
[size=78%] [/size]
 
The following users thanked this post: idontknowyet

WasAnn

Re: Is this perceived as inherently racist?
« Reply #19 on: September 26, 2018, 05:12:01 AM »
I guess I understand why people would consider it racist, but only if they had zero idea of anything actually done in the south. Everyone grew cotton or tobacco or both, long before slavery became common or actually got here. It was a poor people crop. Everyone picked it...like...everyone who wasn't rich.

Even when I was a kid, we went out and picked what was missed. It's just a thing.

As I have always understood it, it's because picking cotton is the most boring and slowest thing in the entire universe. Seriously, stars are formed faster than that. And since it's done when it's blazing hot outside, it's even worse. And to add just a little more torture to it, it's painful. So, it's an expression of frustration. It means, as far as I know, to give someone more time than a real minute.


I disagree on the most boring work on a farm, first place goes to cultivating corn. Slow speed, a worn out JD B with hand clutch and brakes, and the 2 cylinder reducing your kidneys to mush all day long. Good thing was it was the first machine on which I learned how to tighten up the pitman arm to get movement without two full turns of the wheel. I also learned, actually was taught by one of the neighbor's field hands, how to read when doing those 500 kilometer rows of corn. Get the B set for the row, pick up the book from the left tool box, hold in left hand and read with one eye while the other eye watched the rows of young stalks pass down the right side of the main frame. Read Clemens, Tolstoy and a bunch of others in those years.
[size=78%] [/size]

That pretty much makes you a rock star. Just saying.


Science Fiction is my game.
 
The following users thanked this post: idontknowyet, Ghost5

R H Auslander

Re: Is this perceived as inherently racist?
« Reply #20 on: September 26, 2018, 05:15:33 AM »
That pretty much makes you a rock star. Just saying.


Best giggle I've had all day. I've always been a voracious reader.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2018, 05:23:33 AM by R H Auslander »
 
The following users thanked this post: idontknowyet

Jeff Tanyard

Re: Is this perceived as inherently racist?
« Reply #21 on: September 26, 2018, 06:03:58 AM »
I have a Southern character who said "cotton picking" in a line of dialogue today, and I'm just curious if the phrase is tainted by racist connotations in the eyes of the general public. Does it bother you, or think it would others?


My white grandmother picked cotton during the Great Depression.  You have my permission to use "cotton-picking" in whatever way you see fit.


That phrase was used in frustration at me so many times during my childhood. As the product of a family that farmed cotton for generations, I think it's just a southern thing.


This.
v  v  v  v  v    Short Stories    v  v  v  v  v    vv FREE! vv
     
Genres: Science Fiction, Fantasy (some day) | Author Website
 
The following users thanked this post: idontknowyet

Trioxin 245

Re: Is this perceived as inherently racist?
« Reply #22 on: September 26, 2018, 06:11:35 AM »
The key to any great story is being honest with your writing and the characters. If the character thinks or acts a certain way, write it that way. To do anything less is a disservice to the reader and more importantly to yourself.


 
The following users thanked this post: idontknowyet

David VanDyke

  • Long Novel unlocked
  • ***
  • Posts: 799
  • Thanked: 805 times
  • Gender: Male
  • Full-time hybrid author and curmudgeon
    • David VanDyke's Author Website
Re: Is this perceived as inherently racist?
« Reply #23 on: September 26, 2018, 10:19:51 AM »
Though not a Southerner myself, I've spent years there, and my wife is.

Cotton-picking is a putdown. It may be perceived as racist, but it definitely is classist. It means "low-class," because socioeconomically middle-class and above people would never do such brutal outdoor work.

There is no substitute for the phrase that's NOT a putdown, that I can see. It is likely to be perceived as racist if the speaker and the target were ethnically different, or "merely" classist if they're not.
Never listen to people with no skin in the game.

I'm a lucky guy. I find the harder I work, the luckier I am.

Those who prefer their English sloppy have only themselves to thank if the advertisement writer uses his mastery of the vocabulary and syntax to mislead their weak minds.

~ Dorothy L. Sayers
 
The following users thanked this post: FadingLine, quinning, idontknowyet, Alix, Deleted

FadingLine

Re: Is this perceived as inherently racist?
« Reply #24 on: September 26, 2018, 10:25:46 AM »
The word has a deep-rooted history associated with racism. It doesn't matter how many nice people use it unwittingly or because it was part of the economy. My grandfather frequently referred to people of color by the other the latin-derived n-word, and I'm confident he in no way was intending to be disrespectful, since he was under the care of my father, a PoC, and had fairly progressive views at the time. That doesn't make using that word okay. It is not about intent; it is about effect.

There is a reason why "people of color" has a different connotation than "colored people" in American English. They are both technically correct translations of gens de couleur. One of them is forever tainted.There are a ton of ways to indicate that a person picked cotton or knew people who did without using those two words together as an adjective substitution for profanity. It is a very specific, particular way of using two pieces of vocabulary.

It's all about context. Should we censor Huck Finn? Of course not. Should we write problematic characters? Yes! Do I want my kids thinking people should still speak like that? Hell to the no.


OP: I guess if you want readers under 50 and not from the South to think of that character as backwards and ignorant, it doesn't matter. However, I personally wouldn't have any sympathetic character use the term.
 
The following users thanked this post: quinning, idontknowyet, Alix, Deleted

TimothyEllis

  • Forum Owner
  • Administrator
  • Series unlocked
  • ******
  • Posts: 6465
  • Thanked: 2522 times
  • Gender: Male
  • Earth Galaxy core, 2618
    • The Hunter Imperium Universe
Re: Is this perceived as inherently racist?
« Reply #25 on: September 26, 2018, 12:32:59 PM »
I would think it depends on the context. I grew up in the far northwest corner of the US, and the phrase 'just a cotton picking minute', meaning 'I don't really agree with you,' was very common. Nothing to do with actual cotton, as far as I know.

I've always understood it to have that meaning too.

Genres: Space Opera/Fantasy/Cyberpunk, with elements of LitRPG and GameLit, with a touch of the Supernatural. Also Spiritual and Games.



Timothy Ellis Kindle Author page. | Join the Hunter Legacy mailing list | The Hunter Imperium Universe on Facebook. | Forum Promo Page.
 
The following users thanked this post: idontknowyet

Laughing Elephant

Re: Is this perceived as inherently racist?
« Reply #26 on: September 26, 2018, 03:23:36 PM »
 I think it is all about context. The context in which the term is being used and the story set-up. 
 
The context would matter to me, so if a character is merely using it as way of expressing personality, it becomes an idiom reflecting that person’s make-up. But again, context matters in that if the character is using it to denigrate, then I, as a reader, would need to understand why and hopefully, the story set-up will explain why.


If something matters to the story, keep it in and if it doesn't, kick it to the curb. Imho.
 
 
« Last Edit: September 26, 2018, 03:27:54 PM by Laughing Elephant »
 
The following users thanked this post: idontknowyet

Jack Krenneck

Re: Is this perceived as inherently racist?
« Reply #27 on: September 26, 2018, 06:25:46 PM »
It doesn't bother me. As an Australian, the saying that comes to mind is "keep your cotton-picking fingers off that."


The origin of a phrase, and its use in later times are separate things. Having said that, I would avoid it unless your aim is to suggest, or leave open the possibility, that a character is racist. Otherwise, it's just not worth the (potential) trouble.


If it's just a matter of characterising someone as southern, there would be other ways that wouldn't get you into trouble. 
 
The following users thanked this post: idontknowyet

Vidya

Re: Is this perceived as inherently racist?
« Reply #28 on: September 26, 2018, 07:30:34 PM »
Amanda, I live in India and I see swastikas everywhere and on everything. I have never, ever reacted to it as if it’s a symbol of hate, because I know it’s not being used that way here.

Talk about cultural appropriation. This is the absolute worst instance of it. The Nazis stole something that was never meant to represent what they represented, even if they did use a reverse version of it with the arms pointing the opposite way from the original.

Does that mean if I lived in Europe or the US, I could place a swastika on my door as so many Hindus in India do [though i’m not a Hindu]? Heck no, because I know what message most non-Indians would take from it.
 
The following users thanked this post: idontknowyet

WasAnn

Re: Is this perceived as inherently racist?
« Reply #29 on: September 26, 2018, 10:06:39 PM »
It doesn't bother me. As an Australian, the saying that comes to mind is "keep your cotton-picking fingers off that."


The origin of a phrase, and its use in later times are separate things. Having said that, I would avoid it unless your aim is to suggest, or leave open the possibility, that a character is racist. Otherwise, it's just not worth the (potential) trouble.


If it's just a matter of characterising someone as southern, there would be other ways that wouldn't get you into trouble.

I just asked an older relative what that phrase meant to her. She told me, without hesitation, that it meant bloody and dirty. An example would be coming into the house after a day in the fields and touching a freshly washed item. I hadn't considered it before, but I guess it's true. I never once came away from any collection of cotton plants without having bloody fingers.


Science Fiction is my game.
 
The following users thanked this post: idontknowyet, LilyBLily, Jack Krenneck

guest14

  • Guest
Re: Is this perceived as inherently racist?
« Reply #30 on: September 26, 2018, 10:12:02 PM »

Does that mean if I lived in Europe or the US, I could place a swastika on my door as so many Hindus in India do [though i’m not a Hindu]? Heck no, because I know what message most non-Indians would take from it.

This is why writers being honest to a character, situation, ethos is so important. Education through entertainment is everything especially if it's anecdotal and not pressed as a political message (as often happens).
 
The following users thanked this post: idontknowyet

idontknowyet

Re: Is this perceived as inherently racist?
« Reply #31 on: September 27, 2018, 12:49:36 AM »
But pretending words don't have power is antithetical to our growth as writers.



Words have the power to hurt and heal. People have to be real too. We can't change our history, but we can change our future. Hating people for things that happened to our grandparents is silly. Slavery doesn't exist in the US any more. Yeah the hate still lingers. As writers we have the ability to proliferate hate or obliterate hate. It all has to do with the context of our words. Most words are not inherently racist it's the reader and writer that give them the context and develop the bias. Almost any group of words can be given a negative context if that is your desire.


To the OP my mom has this saying if you ask the question it must be worrying you. I would go back into your writing and check the context you are using it in. Do you feel its offensive?
 
The following users thanked this post: Laughing Elephant

Lynn

Re: Is this perceived as inherently racist?
« Reply #32 on: September 27, 2018, 01:50:00 AM »
No, it's not inherently racist.

Some people perceive it as racist. (They're here on the board saying so, so it must be true of some people.)

Anyone who thinks that using southern idioms makes a person appear to be a buffoon or slow or whatever is spouting prejudice against southerners. Just another way of saying "the dumb south." Gah.

How fitting for this topic.
Don't rush me.
 
The following users thanked this post: Max, idontknowyet, RPatton, dianapersaud

RPatton

Re: Is this perceived as inherently racist?
« Reply #33 on: September 27, 2018, 02:26:41 AM »
Several years ago a Washington DC city official used the word niggardly and anyone who didn't bother to educate themselves about the meaning of the word or bother to look in a dictionary, lost their collective minds. But when the NAACP's own chairman responded, it wasn't to criticize the official, but those who took offense to word and demanded others be offended as well, "You hate to think you have to censor your language to meet other people's lack of understanding".

As writers, we should never have to censor our words to compensate for a lack of understanding. The onus shouldn't be on writers to use neutral words, but on the readers to actually look outside themselves and realize that books should be filled with different characters from different worlds with different experiences. But then the reader wouldn't be offended nearly as much and might have to question their current world view; something that is understandably a frightening thought.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2018, 03:24:35 AM by RPatton »
 
The following users thanked this post: Post-Crisis D, Angstriddengoddess, idontknowyet, DrewMcGunn, Laughing Elephant

Post-Crisis D

Re: Is this perceived as inherently racist?
« Reply #34 on: September 27, 2018, 02:54:06 AM »
I have avoided jumping into this discussion.  I wonder if I'll even post this when I'm done writing it.  Maybe I'll delete it.  I don't know yet.  I guess we'll find out.


What if I were to call you a grymapelef?

Are you honored?

Are you offended?

You probably don't know how to feel.

You don't know what the word means.

The word itself has no power.

When I was younger, there was a saying: "Sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never hurt me."

One might argue that words can persuade, inspire, motivate or even hurt.

But they cannot.

Words only have power insomuch as they have meaning.

A word with no meaning has no power.

A word with meaning has only the power we give to it.

If you tell me I'm not a real writer unless I do this, that or the other, your declaration has no power over me except that which I choose to give it.

Now what if I were to call you a grymapelef?

Are you honored?

Are you offended?

You still don't know because you don't know what the word means.

If I tell you the word is something offensive, do you take offense at being called a grymapelef?

If I tell you the word is something complimentary, are you honored by being called a grymapelef?

If I tell you in some places it is an insult and others it is a compliment, how do you feel if you're called a grymapelef?

Is your reaction based on your preconceived definition of the word?

Or do you have no reaction until you know what the speaker means by it?

Either way, the word itself has no power.

And once it has meaning, it has only the power you give it.

And that means you choose whether or not to be offended.

If you are told you must be offended when someone uses the word grymapelef and you then take offense when someone uses the word, then you have lost your agency because you have let others decide how you feel.

If you are offended by the word grymapelef, then people who use the word have power over you.

If I want to offend you, I need only call you a grymapelef.

If I want to make you mad, I need only call you a grymapelef multiple times.

By choosing to take offense from the word, you have given me power over you.

You no longer get to choose.

I can choose when you're offended.

I just say, hey, grymapelef!

And I change your feelings.

I change your mood.

I change your mindset.

I have power over you.

Power you've chosen to give me.

A certain series of sounds manipulates you.

A certain series of letters manipulates you.

You think it's an involuntary response, but it's not.

You've chosen how to react to a certain word.

By doing so, you've given someone else power over you.

Freely.

By choice.

For that, people will debate endlessly.

Because some people take offense at some words, we must do this, that or the other.

Complex rules are developed over who and how words can or cannot be used in order to not cause offense to those who would choose to be offended.

People like to make things complicated.

It's really very simple.

You just have to remember one thing.

"Sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never hurt me."
Mulder: "If you're distracted by fear of those around you, it keeps you from seeing the actions of those above."
The X-Files: "Blood"
 
The following users thanked this post: idontknowyet, dianapersaud, Laughing Elephant

Laughing Elephant

Re: Is this perceived as inherently racist?
« Reply #35 on: September 27, 2018, 03:13:56 AM »
I agree, RPatton.
#
Instead of dumbing down word choices, celebrate them by offering words to the world in as many ways as possible to help educate those who perhaps are too busy to look beyond a story or three.

I am passionate about words and yet words elude me often these days (brain problem) although I never stop searching for the right word when I think up stories.

Have empathy for your reader but also be loyal and true to your characters.
'Just a cotton picking minute' said by someone due to some emotion, should not automatically be construed as racism. This reads as a phrase not an attack unless shown otherwise. This is where context helps
'You're a cotton picking zealot.' Some context is already there with the last word, personality and, perhaps more, might be adding a tone some reader might find offensive. Yet, perhaps the character saying it is speaking to her husband, his sister, their mother and so on - context will always create the frame for words to do their best work.

As storytellers and writers, surely we should embrace words by knowing the history behind them while, at the same time,  acknowledging that some words will hurt some reader somewhere.

We are human, we have a bloody history. That's a fact.
 
 
The following users thanked this post: idontknowyet

guest14

  • Guest
Re: Is this perceived as inherently racist?
« Reply #36 on: September 27, 2018, 03:19:22 AM »

As storytellers and writers, surely we should embrace words by knowing the history behind them while, at the same time,  acknowledging that some words will hurt some reader somewhere.

We are human, we have a bloody history. That's a fact.
 

Yep, it's simply what I've been saying all along. You have to 'choose' to be hurt by something like Dan's witty one-liner sentences and others on here have also pointed out in their own eloquent ways just the same thing.

To be offended IS A CHOICE
 
The following users thanked this post: idontknowyet, Laughing Elephant

Laughing Elephant

Re: Is this perceived as inherently racist?
« Reply #37 on: September 27, 2018, 03:45:07 AM »

As storytellers and writers, surely we should embrace words by knowing the history behind them while, at the same time,  acknowledging that some words will hurt some reader somewhere.

We are human, we have a bloody history. That's a fact.
 

Yep, it's simply what I've been saying all along. You have to 'choose' to be hurt by something like Dan's witty one-liner sentences and others on here have also pointed out in their own eloquent ways just the same thing.

To be offended IS A CHOICE
I don't think it is as simple as being a 'choice' either, unfortunately, Tobias.
Words can be used to incite hatred, riots and so forth. Some of those following whatever 'happening' will do so out of fear, not out of belief. Fear of being seen as different. That's how many bullying children come to be bullies, it is said. 

Emotions of our past are connected to some words, there is no way to deny that.

As Idon'tknowyet stated above, words can also heal and that is something anyone can choose to do.

 
The following users thanked this post: idontknowyet

FadingLine

Re: Is this perceived as inherently racist?
« Reply #38 on: September 27, 2018, 03:55:01 AM »


OP: I guess if you want readers under 50 and not from the South to think of that character as backwards and ignorant, it doesn't matter. However, I personally wouldn't have any sympathetic character use the term.


I think you're doing a disservice to readers "under 50 and not from the South" by assuming they stereotype southerners as "backwards and ignorant" due to our idioms and characteristics of speech. I think you're projecting your own prejudices. I also think you're doing a disservice to southerners by stereotyping us as "backwards and ignorant" due to our idioms and characteristics of speech.


Edit to add:  We're also not "buffoons" as one poster mentioned above.


Not everything southern is racist, backwards, or ignorant. As for "cotton picking," I explained the genesis of that term in my post above.

Yeah, no. That's a completely disingenuous misinterpretation of my words. My point is that people who didn't grow up in a region or a time period are much more likely to recognize when something is offensive than those for whom certain terms and behavior are "normalized."


This is what people in specific conditions of privilege do not understand: calling out language or behavior of a person or people as problematic is not the same a calling someone a bad person.

There are only so many words characters can use in a book to convey their background, their views, their actions to us. It is reasonable, IMO, for a reader to assume that someone who uses such a term casually either doesn't know (ignorant) or doesn't care (backwards) about the effects of using that language. For those who grew up around problematic language, I don't expect them to necessarily notice or care. That's not an excuse to use language without thought and consideration or a wider audience.
 
The following users thanked this post: idontknowyet

guest14

  • Guest
Re: Is this perceived as inherently racist?
« Reply #39 on: September 27, 2018, 03:59:09 AM »
Quote
I don't think it is as simple as being a 'choice' either, unfortunately, Tobias.
Words can be used to incite hatred, riots and so forth. Some of those following whatever 'happening' will do so out of fear, not out of belief. Fear of being seen as different. That's how many bullying children come to be bullies, it is said. 

Emotions of our past are connected to some words, there is no way to deny that.

As Idon'tknowyet stated above, words can also heal and that is something anyone can choose to do.
[edit] quote added for clarity
I agree, but it doesn't change anything really.
The fact it's a choice doesn't exclude conditioning or emotional/religious/political indoctrination.

I simply meant that we choose to be offended and whether it is consciously or subconsciously the result is the same. hatred, fear etc.,

As writers we must choose whether to use the instruments at hand to demonstrate that, or hide behind a barrier of political correctness and in doing so possibly become part of the problem. I'm a great believer in plain speaking which is what gets me in so much trouble on these forums. I don't think of things in terms of offensive and inoffensive, but then I try hard not to be offended at anything and perhaps in doing so I confer such attributes on those I'm discussing things with. I expect people to see things as I do, and when people don't and they become offended I'm left thinking "Err! What just happened there?"

My point is if you look for these things you will surely find them. Therein lies the issue of choice. Whether you know it or not, it IS your choice. If it is an emotional issue, surely that's about you and not the word itself, which as said above and in other posts - is meaningless without your putting your own meaning to it.

If I can choose not to be offended, then surely that shows it is a personal thing that we have control over?
 
The following users thanked this post: idontknowyet

FadingLine

Re: Is this perceived as inherently racist?
« Reply #40 on: September 27, 2018, 04:01:43 AM »
If "just a cotton-picking minute" is racist, then what is "in a New York minute?"

I've never, ever heard, read, or seen anyone say "New York minute" as a substitute for" f*cking," "bloody," or "damn" in the way I've heard people use "cotton-pickin."
 

Anarchist

Re: Is this perceived as inherently racist?
« Reply #41 on: September 27, 2018, 04:14:01 AM »
I simply meant that we choose to be offended and whether it is consciously or subconsciously the result is the same. hatred, fear etc.,

...

If I can choose not to be offended, then surely that shows it is a personal thing that we have control over?


I agree.

I've been called racial slurs. But I'm not an emotional person, so they never bother me. Meanwhile, acquaintances of mine have been called the same slurs and erupted.

It's not the words. It's the person hearing them.

« Last Edit: September 27, 2018, 04:16:45 AM by Anarchist »
"The first lesson of economics is scarcity: there is never enough of anything to fully satisfy all those who want it. The first lesson of politics is to disregard the first lesson of economics.” – Thomas Sowell

"The State is an institution run by gangs of murderers, plunderers and thieves, surrounded by willing executioners, propagandists, sycophants, crooks, liars, clowns, charlatans, dupes and useful idiots—an institution that dirties and taints everything it touches.” - Hans Hoppe

"Virtue is more to be feared than vice, because its excesses are not subject to the regulation of conscience." - Adam Smith

Nothing that requires the labor of others is a basic human right.

I keep a stiff upper lip and shoot from the hip. - AC/DC
 
The following users thanked this post: idontknowyet

JRTomlin

Re: Is this perceived as inherently racist?
« Reply #42 on: September 27, 2018, 04:34:56 AM »
I have a Southern character who said "cotton picking" in a line of dialogue today, and I'm just curious if the phrase is tainted by racist connotations in the eyes of the general public. Does it bother you, or think it would others?
Not that I've ever heard and I do have Southern family. I assume you are aware that the act of picking cotton is done by the poor of all races in the South and not done solely by one race. I should say was. It is never done by hand any more, of course.


ETA: And if words have no power, as some here are claiming, then why are we bothering to be writers? If that were the case (which i do not believe) then we would be wasting a whole lot of our time.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2018, 04:44:59 AM by JRTomlin »
 
The following users thanked this post: idontknowyet

DrewMcGunn

Re: Is this perceived as inherently racist?
« Reply #43 on: September 27, 2018, 05:42:58 AM »


OP: I guess if you want readers under 50 and not from the South to think of that character as backwards and ignorant, it doesn't matter. However, I personally wouldn't have any sympathetic character use the term.


I think you're doing a disservice to readers "under 50 and not from the South" by assuming they stereotype southerners as "backwards and ignorant" due to our idioms and characteristics of speech. I think you're projecting your own prejudices. I also think you're doing a disservice to southerners by stereotyping us as "backwards and ignorant" due to our idioms and characteristics of speech.


Edit to add:  We're also not "buffoons" as one poster mentioned above.


Not everything southern is racist, backwards, or ignorant. As for "cotton picking," I explained the genesis of that term in my post above.

Yeah, no. That's a completely disingenuous misinterpretation of my words. My point is that people who didn't grow up in a region or a time period are much more likely to recognize when something is offensive than those for whom certain terms and behavior are "normalized."


This is what people in specific conditions of privilege do not understand: calling out language or behavior of a person or people as problematic is not the same a calling someone a bad person.

There are only so many words characters can use in a book to convey their background, their views, their actions to us. It is reasonable, IMO, for a reader to assume that someone who uses such a term casually either doesn't know (ignorant) or doesn't care (backwards) about the effects of using that language. For those who grew up around problematic language, I don't expect them to necessarily notice or care. That's not an excuse to use language without thought and consideration or a wider audience.

The past 50 plus postings show that educated writers share no consensus and that even defining problematic language is itself a problematic and contentious undertaking.



Drew McGunn
 
The following users thanked this post: idontknowyet

Laughing Elephant

Re: Is this perceived as inherently racist?
« Reply #44 on: September 27, 2018, 06:37:52 AM »

 Of course it is down to the person that hears the word.
 
However, it is not going to be a choice for those genuinely feeling whatever emotion is set into action thereby taking away their control - no one chooses to lose control willingly.
 
The words are the method in which memory is stirred, feelings roused and control lost.
 
That does not mean the words are harmful, just that the relationship between a word and a person might be.
 
Many of us have truths about terrible lives led, physical and mental wounds, and some of these memories may become attached to some words making the person think those words are bad.
 
It is the historical emotional context of these words that give them power and to pretend otherwise may be akin to hiding behind a mirror.
 
Most people have genuine feelings and it is these feelings that dictate how to react when reading or hearing certain words.
 
I do not blame people for their feelings. I also do not expect them to be able to take control of them just because I might not be feeling the same as them. We are not robots.
 
Books are words that bring emotion (we as the writers of those books would hope) out from the reader in a steady stream, positive and bad emotion (depending on genre etc), all in the quest to make our readers feel entertained, excited, scared, delirious, sexy, happy, hopeful.
 
If we as writers wish our words to bring about all these emotions, then how can we truly think words have no power over us, or our readers? 
 



 
The following users thanked this post: idontknowyet, VanessaC

munboy

Re: Is this perceived as inherently racist?
« Reply #45 on: September 27, 2018, 06:40:05 AM »
Having grown up in south Georgia (in a city founded on racism, no less), I heard it quite a bit. For the most part, people understand it's a southern saying..."Wait a cotton pickin' minute!"...but it does have roots in racism and there will be people who say it is racist. So, if you're worried about it, then don't use it. There is other southern vernacular to give the character authentic behavior.
 
The following users thanked this post: idontknowyet

guest120

  • Guest
Re: Is this perceived as inherently racist?
« Reply #46 on: September 27, 2018, 07:19:45 AM »
ETA: And if words have no power, as some here are claiming, then why are we bothering to be writers? If that were the case (which i do not believe) then we would be wasting a whole lot of our time.

The words of another have only as much power as the receiver allows them.

For proof, one need only look at the differences in popularity of their own works. I write to elicit 'x' in the reader and of course always mean to imbue my prose with maximum power - but - how those words are received isn't up to me. If a general statement like 'words have power' were true, there'd be little variance in popularity between one author's own works and between authors generally across the vast landscape of the written word, but that isn't the case.

One book, one author's words, proves more popular than another in part because the words in the former are deemed more resonant and powerful by more readers generally than that of the latter.

Of course, both authors in that scenario likely wrote with as much force of will and drive behind what they'd written and chose their words just as deliberately, but the popularity of the work thereafter is largely out of their hands. Were it possible, we'd all have everything we've written received at maximum power and force our way into bestseller-dom, but it doesn't work that way.

The words themselves are not enough. That's because the power of the words, and the word of mouth they can or cannot elicit, is entirely in the hands of the receiver.
 
The following users thanked this post: idontknowyet

Al Stevens

  • Medium Novel unlocked
  • ***
  • Posts: 560
  • Thanked: 165 times
  • Gender: Male
  • Coffee-drinking, insomniac binge writer
    • Al Stevens, Author, Musician
Re: Is this perceived as inherently racist?
« Reply #47 on: September 27, 2018, 07:34:20 AM »
Another southerner here. I recall the adjective phrase being applied more to objects than people. And often it didn't describe or represent a characteristic of the object. It was just a couple more words tossed into colloquial interchange, perhaps to add cadence and meter to a sentence.

Words by themselves have no power. Sentences often have power.

I accept that folks who go in search of offence will find it.

It's a PC thing. Dasn't let folks think I harbor socially unacceptable notions.

Well, I do harbor socially unacceptable notions. They were programmed into impressionable little me before I knew to ignore and block them. Eventually, I learned to dislike and suppress them. But they linger.

It's not PC to admit that.
     
 
The following users thanked this post: idontknowyet, DrewMcGunn, Laughing Elephant

R H Auslander

Re: Is this perceived as inherently racist?
« Reply #48 on: September 28, 2018, 06:19:59 AM »
One person's colloquialism is another persons 'racism'. If the OP had to ask if 'cotton pickin'' was 'racist', then the OP had doubts about the phrase, ergo the OP shouldn't use said phrase. End of discussion.

[/size][size=78%]  [/size]
 
The following users thanked this post: idontknowyet

Mylius Fox

Re: Is this perceived as inherently racist?
« Reply #49 on: October 01, 2018, 10:22:12 PM »
Thanks for the responses everyone; it's great to see this forum so active already. :cool:

Myself, I didn't have any qualms about using it when I asked, but it did make me curious how others might perceive it. I think it's important to not become ensconced in one's own cultural conditioning to the point where you lose a natural inquiry into just how different someone else coming in from a different angle will perceive the effect of your words. If anything that sort of inquisitiveness is something authors should sensitize themselves to concerning all language patterns, because it directly relates to how accessible one's work is to one's whole potential audience, and allows one to make an informed choice.
 
The following users thanked this post: Max, idontknowyet

The Bass Bagwhan

Re: Is this perceived as inherently racist?
« Reply #50 on: October 01, 2018, 11:01:05 PM »

Okay, I'm Australian too, but here's my seven cents worth thanks to the low Oz dollar...

You're creating a problem when any attempt at political correctness, or even a genuine desire not to offend people or perpetuate unpleasant language, diminishes the realism of your characters and their dialogue. In fact, you're possibly doing a disservice by denying such language existed — regardless of any argument about its origins. Imagine someone young reading a novel set in the South circa 19th Century and it didn't contain any of the cruel and racist language used in the day? Would that be right?


If your writing involves perhaps a one-off instance of possible offence, then yeah ... why poke the bear? But if several, even frequent phrases can be offensive, but have genuine historical context — even if that context is to accurately portray a character of the era with their language (remembering, by the way, that many, many people use profanity without having a clue what the words mean) and to maintain the realism of the period, then the best idea would be a brief, heartfelt acknowledgement at the front of the book explaining that you don't condone at all the use of such phrases today, if ever, and that their inclusion is for the sake of authenticity and accuracy.


Acknowledging and identifying any offensive language, and authentically portraying its cruel use, is a lot more powerful message towards removing it today, than pretending it didn't happen.
 
The following users thanked this post: idontknowyet

boba1823

Re: Is this perceived as inherently racist?
« Reply #51 on: October 02, 2018, 12:28:46 AM »
Isn't this phrase something that Bugs Bunny, or maybe Elmer Fudd, or one of those Loony Toons characters would say? Maybe I'm remembering it from something else, but I'm fairly sure it was one of those old cartoons.
But my first impression is just that it's a goofy (small-g) and cartoonish phrase. No one else has mentioned it, so.. maybe this isn't a common association, ha!
... also, hooray for the new board being up :D
 
The following users thanked this post: idontknowyet

LilyBLily

Re: Is this perceived as inherently racist?
« Reply #52 on: October 02, 2018, 02:07:52 AM »
Several years ago a Washington DC city official used the word niggardly and anyone who didn't bother to educate themselves about the meaning of the word or bother to look in a dictionary, lost their collective minds. But when the NAACP's own chairman responded, it wasn't to criticize the official, but those who took offense to word and demanded others be offended as well, "You hate to think you have to censor your language to meet other people's lack of understanding".

As writers, we should never have to censor our words to compensate for a lack of understanding. The onus shouldn't be on writers to use neutral words, but on the readers to actually look outside themselves and realize that books should be filled with different characters from different worlds with different experiences. But then the reader wouldn't be offended nearly as much and might have to question their current world view; something that is understandably a frightening thought.

That man was forced to resign because of the ignorance of the person who heard him use the word (who mistook it for a word white people aren't supposed to say anymore, but nonwhite people apparently do use). If you google "niggardly incident" you come across numerous examples of ignorant people with limited vocabularies getting up in arms or upset over the word. Many people jumped to his defense, and he was offered his job back, but accepted a different one. He said he'd learned he had to be more sensitive in his use of language. It wasn't what he said, but what was heard. (I'm paraphrasing, not quoting.)

If something feels offensive and hurtful, that's your truth.

Our words do have power, and their use in specific situations can inflame any word we use. Often we're not in control of those situations. Still, we can't all write as if every character we invent is thoughtful, PC, etc. Lee Child's often vicious criminals never use the f-word in his books; that's his choice. I just deleted a romantic comedy from my Kindle because the author used the f-word in hers; that's my choice.

I've learned a lot from this discussion.
 
 
The following users thanked this post: idontknowyet

guest14

  • Guest
Re: Is this perceived as inherently racist?
« Reply #53 on: October 02, 2018, 02:59:43 AM »
'Call a spade a spade'... Now, are we going to make that racist?
 

Jake

Re: Is this perceived as inherently racist?
« Reply #54 on: October 02, 2018, 04:48:37 AM »
I have a Southern character who said "cotton picking" in a line of dialogue today, and I'm just curious if the phrase is tainted by racist connotations in the eyes of the general public. Does it bother you, or think it would others?


I don't think the word is tainted, I wouldn't think twice about it if I read it in a book. Some people WOULD possibly think that a character who talked like that who also had certain other attributes might be a racist, even if it's not stated outright in the story. This isn't a political correctness issue, it comes down to how you want your character perceived.