Author Topic: Close third person narrator?  (Read 6734 times)

RiverRun

Close third person narrator?
« on: September 24, 2020, 08:08:47 AM »
I've been reading some craft books this year, particularly a couple by Donald Maass, and it's given me a lot of food for thought. A brief comment in one of Maass's books though made me wonder about something. If you don't know, Donald Maass is a NY literary agent, so he prescribes for the kind of book he would try to sell to trad publishers. So far so good. But he says at one point something like this: Most readers today expect close third person narrator. I know this is very common, especially, in trad pubbed books. But do you think this is really what readers want? Or is it just what big publishers think they should want?

First person narrators also seem popular. (I wrote one myself.) And I just finished reading a book over the weekend (7 1/2 deaths of Evelyn Hardcastle) which was first person present and very effective. But I personally sometimes find a really close narrator to make me close a book on the first page. I get tired of being perpetually in someone else's head and expected to find their emotional ups and downs compelling. I recently read Elisabeth Gaskell's Wives and Daughters, which is of course very old, so there was a lot more omnipresent narration, and it was so fun.

On the other hand, a really close third person narrator can be very, very effective, and as Maass points out, its popular.

So what do you all think? Do you like a little distance from your narrator in your novels? Or do you like to be right in their head thinking their every thought? Do your readers care one way or another?

ETA. Not omnipresent. Omniscient. Sheesh.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2020, 05:58:14 AM by RiverRun »
 
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JRTomlin

Re: Close third person narrator?
« Reply #1 on: September 24, 2020, 10:03:34 AM »
No, I do not like distance from the narrator. As a reader, close third is what I expect and pretty strongly prefer. I will read others but never with the same degree of immersion. Not surprisingly, close third is what I write.
 
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j tanner

Re: Close third person narrator?
« Reply #2 on: September 24, 2020, 11:54:18 AM »
I find close third person in past tense the preferred experience for both reading and writing.

I can accept first person past. (And write some here and there just to be contrarian.)

Present tense takes a REALLY strong recommendation in either POV. I find it mostly uncomfortable to read. I can probably count the number I actually finished and liked on one hand.
 
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angela

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Re: Close third person narrator?
« Reply #3 on: September 24, 2020, 11:58:55 AM »
I'm currently writing some books in mostly third-close-limited with occasional omniscient.

I do vary the distance of the third-person. For example, sometimes I'll simply name her emotion and summarize, other times I'll include body sensations and more of her senses. It's like how a film uses both wide shots and close-ups. A mix of distance makes the read compelling and varied. I like writing that way. Whether or not it's preferred by readers.... who knows.

When I step way out, I'll use the character's first and last name to really throw in the narrator's voice for an omniscient punch. It's a tone shift that refreshes attention span. Our job is to direct attention and focus, which probably gets harder every decade (wild generalization!!)

Mostly readers just want the bad person to be punished in the end and the good people get a happy ending, with not much about the craft bothering them either way as long as it's readable.

IMO, there's nothing wrong with any POV that comes from the POV itself. It's all technique plus taste. If a book has page after page describing someone's churning guts or sweating palms, or their incessant racing inner dialog, it can get old no matter the POV.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2020, 12:06:26 PM by angela »
 
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cecilia_writer

Re: Close third person narrator?
« Reply #4 on: September 24, 2020, 01:45:00 PM »
I usually use close third person but with either 2 or 3 POV characters who take over for a whole chapter at a time. I think I would find it hard to use one for the whole story. I do find the focus zooming in and out a bit - it usually depends on how much action is going on, although one of my series characters is much more introspective than the others.
I've done 1st person with alternating characters too, but it's more difficult and some readers are more likely to find the characters annoying, although I suspect it's partly because this is a series set in the 1950s and some of the attitudes are quite alien.
Cecilia Peartree - Woman of Mystery
 
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elleoco

Re: Close third person narrator?
« Reply #5 on: September 24, 2020, 01:49:55 PM »
This is something I've pondered over considerably.

As a reader sometimes close third has the opposite effect on me from what it's supposed to - it makes things feel lightweight and shallow. You could say, okay then it's done badly, but if so, I can't detect it. Even in some craft books, there will be examples, and I like and am more drawn by the example that's not supposed to affect me that way. Not that I like books that are all told and distant, but sometimes just saying, "Her heart broke," does more for me than a paragraph of that character's actual thoughts and physical symptoms. Also some of my own favorite third person past books aren't close third.

As a writer, my most successful book is the first I wrote. It would get massive revision from proponents of close third. I'd revise it heavily for that myself now that I have better craft, yet it's the most successful of my books, the one readers say they've read 5 times and still love, etc., etc. Not that it doesn't get criticism it deserves from some in the know, but that's overridden by those who don't even see the flaws. So that's the power of story over craft, but even so it seems the way it's written works for most readers.

I do vary the distance of the third-person. For example, sometimes I'll simply name her emotion and summarize, other times I'll include body sensations and more of her senses. It's like how a film uses both wide shots and close-ups. A mix of distance makes the read compelling and varied. I like writing that way. Whether or not it's preferred by readers.... who knows.

* * *

Mostly readers just want the bad person to be punished in the end and the good people get a happy ending, with not much about the craft bothering them either way as long as it's readable.

IMO, there's nothing wrong with any POV that comes from the POV itself. It's all technique plus taste. If a book has page after page describing someone's churning guts or sweating palms, or their incessant racing inner dialog, it can get old no matter the POV.

After probably way too much ruminating on the subject, angela's solution is pretty much what I've decided on. Working some of my own current stuff over to be almost all close third made me unhappy with it. I'm certainly using close third way more than in that first book, and I hope in all the right places. But I'm not making a religion out of it.
 
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PJ Post

Re: Close third person narrator?
« Reply #6 on: September 24, 2020, 10:51:26 PM »
Omni used to be a thing, and I was used to it. It was expected.

Third close became a thing and I got used to it too - but it's harder to do well because the MC must be that much more compelling, which usually translates into likeability. If they're not...it's probably a DNF. While we're on it, I have no problem with head-hopping as a general rule, at least when it's done moderately well.

First past is the worst for me, and except for rare circumstances, unreadable. First past comes off as that guy telling the same story night after night at the end of the bar, the fish getting bigger with each retelling. First past is always told from a position of safety, usually with a practiced prose designed to impress.

First present is by far the most difficult to pull off, but it is also the most engaging when done well – which isn't all that often. Since we spend the entire book in the MC's head, they need to be really enjoyable to be around. Also, from a craft perspective, every aspect of prose becomes problematic because the entire narrative must be filtered through the MC's personality, level of education, speech patterns and narrative knowledge, prose that must anchor the narrative into a continually moving, yet ever present 'Now'. Action scenes are especially tricky, otherwise they come off as stage direction.

But, as is often noted, it all comes down to the execution, which is what accounts for the rare exceptions to everyone's preferences. My advice is to always serve the story and use the best tools for the job - except, we should probably talk about branding while we're at it. It's probably a good idea to pick a style and stick with it rather than mix things up, which could influence the stories you choose to write. If you gain a fan with a third close book, you don't want to lose them with the next one because it's in first present. More than any other factor, branding relies on consistent messaging.

As for ‘popular’ books, they are most often the result of good promotion and a heaping helping of market expectations. Being popular is a completely separate metric from being good. Sales do not necessarily equate to quality.
 
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alhawke

Re: Close third person narrator?
« Reply #7 on: September 25, 2020, 12:27:56 AM »
My first three books were published in third person close, past tense. This and omniscient seem to me to have the most traditional and professional feel.

My witch series is first person present. I initially began it as a challenge to try the technique and see what happens. I love how it fully immerses you into the character's POV. The only catch is that the story remains through the MC's eyes the entire time and I can't have breaks in the story with other characters.

Of all techniques, I actually have the most difficulty writing omniscient. I still can't get a good handle on this one and find my POV becomes difficult to follow and easily garbled.
 
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Vijaya

Re: Close third person narrator?
« Reply #8 on: September 25, 2020, 01:19:20 AM »
It really depends on the story you're trying to tell, whether you want it to be completely immersive or have some distance. MT Anderson in Octavian Nothing uses first person narration but towards the end there are pages that are blacked out and there's a switch to 3rd person. It's very effective because you want some separation from the abuse. It's too horrific otherwise.

So consider what your story needs. My first novel, BOUND, is first person present not through analysis but it's how it flowed. I tried writing it in the traditional third person past but I lost my voice and the immediacy. I discussed this with my mentor and she agreed that 1st person present worked well.

My general preference is for close third, past both for reading and writing because there's a range of closeness you can achieve with it. But everything has to serve the story.


Author of over 100 books and magazine pieces, primarily for children
Vijaya Bodach | Personal Blog | Bodach Books
 
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RiverRun

Re: Close third person narrator?
« Reply #9 on: September 25, 2020, 05:35:32 AM »
I enjoyed reading everyone's perspective. A couple things I found really interesting:

Mostly readers just want the bad person to be punished in the end and the good people get a happy ending, with not much about the craft bothering them either way as long as it's readable.


I actually kinda' disagree with this. I think good writing craft allows the story to shine through. When a story appears to have a strong story and not so strong writing, or vice versa, I think its a case of an author who's really good at some aspects of writing craft and not so much at others. I don't think its story or craft, either/or. I think they are inextricably linked.

But I don't really sell books so don't mind me too much:)



 

RiverRun

Re: Close third person narrator?
« Reply #10 on: September 25, 2020, 05:42:15 AM »
This is something I've pondered over considerably.

As a reader sometimes close third has the opposite effect on me from what it's supposed to - it makes things feel lightweight and shallow. You could say, okay then it's done badly, but if so, I can't detect it. Even in some craft books, there will be examples, and I like and am more drawn by the example that's not supposed to affect me that way. Not that I like books that are all told and distant, but sometimes just saying, "Her heart broke," does more for me than a paragraph of that character's actual thoughts and physical symptoms. Also some of my own favorite third person past books aren't close third.

As a writer, my most successful book is the first I wrote. It would get massive revision from proponents of close third. I'd revise it heavily for that myself now that I have better craft, yet it's the most successful of my books, the one readers say they've read 5 times and still love, etc., etc. Not that it doesn't get criticism it deserves from some in the know, but that's overridden by those who don't even see the flaws. So that's the power of story over craft, but even so it seems the way it's written works for most readers.

I think this is really interesting. I have had the same experience I think. Reading something in a craft book that's supposed to be a good example of more immediate writing and it just feels - flat. I've never really enjoyed reading thrillers because you start out with all this visceral experience of running or reacting or whatnot so often. And I'm like, who cares? Who are these people? But then I often like novels that begin with descriptions of the weather. I must not be in the majority.

I also think its fascinating that your best selling novel does not have a lot of close third person narration. Maybe you should be writing more books like it:) I know its pretty much impossible to guess why one book sells better than another. But maybe it isn't that the story is greater than the flaws. Maybe you're good at telling a story in omniscient third person. Or maybe that's just what that particular story demanded. Still, it seems to suggest that readers can still engage with that style.
 

RiverRun

Re: Close third person narrator?
« Reply #11 on: September 25, 2020, 05:55:21 AM »
I'm still posting in my own thread Grin

I think the reason this subject keeps niggling in the back of my mind is because my own writing suffers from a pacing problem. The reviews I have are positive, but I have sometimes gotten the comment that my work is boring. And a friend couldn't get past chapter five or so when I asked her to beta read my last book. Some people clearly don't mind, or they wouldn't leave me good reviews, but I still feel like its a weakness in my writing and has been for a long time. And I don't really know how to pick up the pace. So I come back to this. Do I cut out my characters' internal thoughts? Descriptions? Actions? Conversations? (Dialogue is typically my favorite part of a book. I never want to cut it.) I don't know. Maybe a subject for another thread. But I feel like if I could really get a good handle on narrating it would help me with this. Somehow I don't feel that I'm doing it as well as I could.

I had a story idea I loved a few months ago and wrote down some scenes all in a hurry. It's first person past, which is often how I start stories, but I find it tedious to sustain and starting switching to third person. But now I'm over analyzing the thing, trying to figure out what to focus on. I know the short answer is focus on what serves the story. But that never helps me. Once the book is finished (I've written four) it all seems to serve the story. It just serves it up too slow.

It occurred to me that I might try a really close third person, really focus in on my MC experience, and maybe that would get things moving at a faster pace and help me leave stuff out that's slowing me down. But, clearly, I'm feeling unsure about it.
 

JRTomlin

Re: Close third person narrator?
« Reply #12 on: September 25, 2020, 06:05:36 AM »
Poor pacing is not usually the fault of PoV. I don't know what kind of novels you write but pacing refers to the speed at which the readers are pulled through the events. But it also refers to the tempo of the events. Are all of your events the same 'tempo' or do you give your readers breathers and vary the intensity? To use as an example my own genre, military historical fiction, if I have nothing but battle scenes in a row no matter how well written, what the POV, or what type of description, my readers are going to get bored. I have to intersperse them with character building and relationship building scenes that are 'quieter'. I find romance (yes, I do read romance) that is nothing but lovey-dovey and sex scene after sex scene with nothing in between boring and quickly put it down.

I don't know if that is your problem but it is very possible you are looking in the wrong place for a solution. Have you ever had your work looked at by an experienced developmental editor? That is one of the best ways to learn the weaknesses in our writing in my experience.

Don't know if that will help at all and if it doesn't just ignore.
 

RiverRun

Re: Close third person narrator?
« Reply #13 on: September 25, 2020, 06:06:59 AM »

As for ‘popular’ books, they are most often the result of good promotion and a heaping helping of market expectations. Being popular is a completely separate metric from being good. Sales do not necessarily equate to quality.

I've long thought this too, but I'm starting to wonder.

I've been reading Writer Unboxed also where Donald Maass adds blog posts. Mostly as a form of procrastination that at least pretends to productive. Although there's a lot of good stuff there. Some time back Maass wrote this comment:

Speaking as a gatekeeper myself, I would say first that my job is not to shut the gate but rather to open it. I don’t make any money saying no to manuscripts.

(And how I wish that every manuscript submitted could sell. If so, I would be responding from my 200 foot yacht on the Mediterranean Sea.)


A good book might not equal popularity, but I think it certainly helps.
 

RiverRun

Re: Close third person narrator?
« Reply #14 on: September 25, 2020, 06:12:07 AM »
Poor pacing is not usually the fault of PoV. I don't know what kind of novels you write but pacing refers to the speed at which the readers are pulled through the events. But it also refers to the tempo of the events. Are all of your events the same 'tempo' or do you give your readers breathers and vary the intensity? To use as an example my own genre, military historical fiction, if I have nothing but battle scenes in a row no matter how well written, what the POV, or what type of description, my readers are going to get bored. I have to intersperse them with character building and relationship building scenes that are 'quieter'. I find romance (yes, I do read romance) that is nothing but lovey-dovey and sex scene after sex scene with nothing in between boring and quickly put it down.

I don't know if that is your problem but it is very possible you are looking in the wrong place for a solution. Have you ever had your work looked at by an experienced developmental editor? That is one of the best ways to learn the weaknesses in our writing in my experience.

Don't know if that will help at all and if it doesn't just ignore.

Yes I developmental editor would probably be very helpful! Someday...

I have the opposite problem. My characters talk and ponder and look out the window and - you know, they do stuff, but it takes a while to get there. No battles. The other thing I'm trying to do is add more plot to my stories. It may that that alone will help me out.

Celia mentioned above zooming in and out of her characters, and that's what it feels like to me also. But I feel like I'm either zooming in too much, or at risk of zooming out too much. A bit like falling off on the left because you're trying not to fall off on the right. :shrug
 

JRTomlin

Re: Close third person narrator?
« Reply #15 on: September 25, 2020, 06:28:52 AM »
Plot is a really good idea. Musing for most of our novels doesn't get us very far unless something happens and the musing matters. It doesn't have to be battles, and that really wasn't my point. It could be meeting someone they love or encountering and battling some personal problem, but something needs to be mixed in with that musing.
 

notthatamanda

Re: Close third person narrator?
« Reply #16 on: September 25, 2020, 06:34:25 AM »
I'm still posting in my own thread Grin

I think the reason this subject keeps niggling in the back of my mind is because my own writing suffers from a pacing problem. The reviews I have are positive, but I have sometimes gotten the comment that my work is boring. And a friend couldn't get past chapter five or so when I asked her to beta read my last book. Some people clearly don't mind, or they wouldn't leave me good reviews, but I still feel like its a weakness in my writing and has been for a long time. And I don't really know how to pick up the pace. So I come back to this. Do I cut out my characters' internal thoughts? Descriptions? Actions? Conversations? (Dialogue is typically my favorite part of a book. I never want to cut it.) I don't know. Maybe a subject for another thread. But I feel like if I could really get a good handle on narrating it would help me with this. Somehow I don't feel that I'm doing it as well as I could.

I had a story idea I loved a few months ago and wrote down some scenes all in a hurry. It's first person past, which is often how I start stories, but I find it tedious to sustain and starting switching to third person. But now I'm over analyzing the thing, trying to figure out what to focus on. I know the short answer is focus on what serves the story. But that never helps me. Once the book is finished (I've written four) it all seems to serve the story. It just serves it up too slow.

It occurred to me that I might try a really close third person, really focus in on my MC experience, and maybe that would get things moving at a faster pace and help me leave stuff out that's slowing me down. But, clearly, I'm feeling unsure about it.
Make sure something important is happening every chapter. Anticipation of it, the thing itself, reaction to it.
 
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idontknowyet

Re: Close third person narrator?
« Reply #17 on: September 25, 2020, 06:58:28 AM »
It really depends on the story you're trying to tell, whether you want it to be completely immersive or have some distance. MT Anderson in Octavian Nothing uses first person narration but towards the end there are pages that are blacked out and there's a switch to 3rd person. It's very effective because you want some separation from the abuse. It's too horrific otherwise.

I found a work around with 1st to deal with instances that are too horrific to deal with in 1st yet are critical for the storyline. Since all my stories are written in 1st present with only one point of view. I will deal with aspects of the situation in other peoples books. Like for the loss of a child there is almost a black hole there for several weeks. And in another book that is filled in with the mother in law's perspective. There is so much overlap in my book it flows seamlessly (well at least that's my goal.)

I do agree that some things in 1st would be terrible. Though i have seen people add them just for that factor alone. Shock and grossed out are big deals in the dark romance genre.
 

idontknowyet

Re: Close third person narrator?
« Reply #18 on: September 25, 2020, 07:00:38 AM »
I enjoyed reading everyone's perspective. A couple things I found really interesting:

Mostly readers just want the bad person to be punished in the end and the good people get a happy ending, with not much about the craft bothering them either way as long as it's readable.


I actually kinda' disagree with this. I think good writing craft allows the story to shine through. When a story appears to have a strong story and not so strong writing, or vice versa, I think its a case of an author who's really good at some aspects of writing craft and not so much at others. I don't think its story or craft, either/or. I think they are inextricably linked.

But I don't really sell books so don't mind me too much:)
I actually agree with angela, though this has genre expectations and excludes horror and thrillers would be my guess. People have expectations of tropes and stories. If you meet those expectations there is a lot of wiggle room when it comes to craft or skill.
 
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Vijaya

Re: Close third person narrator?
« Reply #19 on: September 25, 2020, 07:03:10 AM »
Poor pacing is not usually the fault of PoV. I don't know what kind of novels you write but pacing refers to the speed at which the readers are pulled through the events. But it also refers to the tempo of the events. Are all of your events the same 'tempo' or do you give your readers breathers and vary the intensity?

Have you ever had your work looked at by an experienced developmental editor? That is one of the best ways to learn the weaknesses in our writing in my experience.

Good advice.

RiverRun--one way to *see* your story is to lay the scenes on index cards. Write briefly what happens. Draw the action--stick figure is fine. Write the predominant emotion. If you only have a bunch of talking heads and there's not much happening you probably want to beef up your plot.

I really like Don Maass Writing the Breakout Novel Workbook and his latest on The Emotional Craft of Writing. He's a good teacher.


Author of over 100 books and magazine pieces, primarily for children
Vijaya Bodach | Personal Blog | Bodach Books
 
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RiverRun

Re: Close third person narrator?
« Reply #20 on: September 25, 2020, 07:05:03 AM »
Plot is a really good idea. Musing for most of our novels doesn't get us very far unless something happens and the musing matters. It doesn't have to be battles, and that really wasn't my point. It could be meeting someone they love or encountering and battling some personal problem, but something needs to be mixed in with that musing.

I understood about the battles. There are many kinds of battles a character can fight, most of them not involving swords.

And I'm exaggerating a little. It isn't quite musing most of the time. But perhaps my character's struggles are too internal. To be honest I don't know what it is. It doesn't seem slow to me. Just to other people:)
 

idontknowyet

Re: Close third person narrator?
« Reply #21 on: September 25, 2020, 07:06:43 AM »
I'm still posting in my own thread Grin

I think the reason this subject keeps niggling in the back of my mind is because my own writing suffers from a pacing problem. The reviews I have are positive, but I have sometimes gotten the comment that my work is boring. And a friend couldn't get past chapter five or so when I asked her to beta read my last book. Some people clearly don't mind, or they wouldn't leave me good reviews, but I still feel like its a weakness in my writing and has been for a long time. And I don't really know how to pick up the pace. So I come back to this. Do I cut out my characters' internal thoughts? Descriptions? Actions? Conversations? (Dialogue is typically my favorite part of a book. I never want to cut it.) I don't know. Maybe a subject for another thread. But I feel like if I could really get a good handle on narrating it would help me with this. Somehow I don't feel that I'm doing it as well as I could.

I had a story idea I loved a few months ago and wrote down some scenes all in a hurry. It's first person past, which is often how I start stories, but I find it tedious to sustain and starting switching to third person. But now I'm over analyzing the thing, trying to figure out what to focus on. I know the short answer is focus on what serves the story. But that never helps me. Once the book is finished (I've written four) it all seems to serve the story. It just serves it up too slow.

It occurred to me that I might try a really close third person, really focus in on my MC experience, and maybe that would get things moving at a faster pace and help me leave stuff out that's slowing me down. But, clearly, I'm feeling unsure about it.
Make sure something important is happening every chapter. Anticipation of it, the thing itself, reaction to it.
I've read it should go even farther than that. Every scene needs to fulfill a purpose in the story. If its not driving your story it's holding it down. If you can't answer what did this do to develop my character or plot point it isn't helping you.

I agree with what JRTomlin pov probably isn't your issue with pacing.
 

RiverRun

Re: Close third person narrator?
« Reply #22 on: September 25, 2020, 07:09:15 AM »
Poor pacing is not usually the fault of PoV. I don't know what kind of novels you write but pacing refers to the speed at which the readers are pulled through the events. But it also refers to the tempo of the events. Are all of your events the same 'tempo' or do you give your readers breathers and vary the intensity?

Have you ever had your work looked at by an experienced developmental editor? That is one of the best ways to learn the weaknesses in our writing in my experience.

Good advice.

RiverRun--one way to *see* your story is to lay the scenes on index cards. Write briefly what happens. Draw the action--stick figure is fine. Write the predominant emotion. If you only have a bunch of talking heads and there's not much happening you probably want to beef up your plot.

I really like Don Maass Writing the Breakout Novel Workbook and his latest on The Emotional Craft of Writing. He's a good teacher.

I was just reading thru writing the breakout novel, and read his new book, 21st century writing, or something like that, which I feel like I learned a lot from.

I'm mostly a panster and index cards bring on writer's block. But I will think about the 'talking heads' aspect. (And perhaps the internal dialogue too.) I'm attuned to that on the small scale (breaking up dialogue and so on) But maybe I haven't been paying enough attention to it on the macro level. Gotta' go do stuff now but I will be back later if anyone else has more thoughts!
 

elleoco

Re: Close third person narrator?
« Reply #23 on: September 25, 2020, 07:22:00 AM »
Poor pacing is not usually the fault of PoV.
I have the opposite problem. My characters talk and ponder and look out the window and - you know, they do stuff, but it takes a while to get there. No battles. The other thing I'm trying to do is add more plot to my stories. It may that that alone will help me out.

I agree with JR. POV, at least whether or not to use close third, isn't a big factor in pacing. If you have a pacing problem, I think in above part of your post, you may be hinting at the problem. Characters need to do more than "stuff". They need to do "stuff that advances the story." So if someone looks out a window, that look or the result of it needs to have a purpose in the story. Maybe the character is avoiding the eyes of someone in the room, maybe something seen or not seen has a consequence, either in provoking action or emotion from the character.

Also I need to clarify. While I have trouble with close third writing sometimes, my reason is evidently the opposite of yours. I don't find it flat. To the contrary, it often seems to me to turn drama into melodrama. It's not just word choice either, which you could say means it's done badly, but something about the rhythm of it. We may all think that way, but it too often doesn't work for me in what I read.

idontknowyet

Re: Close third person narrator?
« Reply #24 on: September 25, 2020, 07:40:57 AM »
Poor pacing is not usually the fault of PoV.
I have the opposite problem. My characters talk and ponder and look out the window and - you know, they do stuff, but it takes a while to get there. No battles. The other thing I'm trying to do is add more plot to my stories. It may that that alone will help me out.

I agree with JR. POV, at least whether or not to use close third, isn't a big factor in pacing. If you have a pacing problem, I think in above part of your post, you may be hinting at the problem. Characters need to do more than "stuff". They need to do "stuff that advances the story." So if someone looks out a window, that look or the result of it needs to have a purpose in the story. Maybe the character is avoiding the eyes of someone in the room, maybe something seen or not seen has a consequence, either in provoking action or emotion from the character.

Also I need to clarify. While I have trouble with close third writing sometimes, my reason is evidently the opposite of yours. I don't find it flat. To the contrary, it often seems to me to turn drama into melodrama. It's not just word choice either, which you could say means it's done badly, but something about the rhythm of it. We may all think that way, but it too often doesn't work for me in what I read.

POV i really think has to do more with each of our personal styles of writing. How intimate we become with our character and how we see our story as we create it. I think even though some people can jump between several POV, they tend to enjoy writing more one way or the other.

How that story is created in your head is how POV is developed. Forcing it to go one way or the other because someone say well x book should be written this way can destroy a story. IMHO.
 

RiverRun

Re: Close third person narrator?
« Reply #25 on: September 25, 2020, 11:41:25 AM »
Poor pacing is not usually the fault of PoV.
I have the opposite problem. My characters talk and ponder and look out the window and - you know, they do stuff, but it takes a while to get there. No battles. The other thing I'm trying to do is add more plot to my stories. It may that that alone will help me out.

I agree with JR. POV, at least whether or not to use close third, isn't a big factor in pacing. If you have a pacing problem, I think in above part of your post, you may be hinting at the problem. Characters need to do more than "stuff". They need to do "stuff that advances the story." So if someone looks out a window, that look or the result of it needs to have a purpose in the story. Maybe the character is avoiding the eyes of someone in the room, maybe something seen or not seen has a consequence, either in provoking action or emotion from the character.

Also I need to clarify. While I have trouble with close third writing sometimes, my reason is evidently the opposite of yours. I don't find it flat. To the contrary, it often seems to me to turn drama into melodrama. It's not just word choice either, which you could say means it's done badly, but something about the rhythm of it. We may all think that way, but it too often doesn't work for me in what I read.

Interesting! I can see how that might happen, but I never would have thought of it.
 

RiverRun

Re: Close third person narrator?
« Reply #26 on: September 25, 2020, 12:50:09 PM »
I appreciate you all taking the time to share your ideas. While I don't think my problem with pacing is due to POV, I think that thinking through point of view choices is a tool I can use to help me with my pacing problem, if that makes any sense.

So, we all know that close third person involves a certain amount of omniscient narration. There's compression of actions, thoughts, events. Novels are impossible without it. The close third person narration I'm thinking of is the kind that really digs deep into the MC's perspective. Maybe I can come up with an example.

I'm leaning towards historical romantic suspense right now, so this is what I've got.

Celia Martin waited by the well for Derek to come. The well had stood there for a hundred years, the meeting place of an endless succession of courting couples. She frowned at the unwelcome allusion and busied herself with tracing the cracks in the stones. She was irritated that she was waiting, and dreading the suspicious elation she would feel when he arrived.


So far so good, no? No crazy drama, but there's tension, foreshadowing, detail, whatever. A nice flow from omniscient to close third.

Or...

Derek would come to the well today, she was sure of it. Her hip rested against the edge of the well, the cracks in the stone pressing her soft fingertips. How many couples came courting here every summer? Let their hands overlap on this fractured stone? She crumbled a loose pebble in her fingers, grinding it remorselessly into dust. There would be no courting today, of that she was sure. Careless Derek, breaker of hearts, dreamer of dreams. Oh, how could you be such a fool?

Okay, so both have a certain amount of omniscient exposition. You can't get rid of that without being weirdly experimental. They are both close third person, but the last is really close. This is what I'm trying to figure out. I find the style of the first easier to write. Is there much to be gained from working up writing like the second one? It actually takes more space to write this way. I communicated less information in the second than the first, but is it more immediate? Does it provide a better experience for the reader?
« Last Edit: September 25, 2020, 12:53:17 PM by RiverRun »
 

JRTomlin

Re: Close third person narrator?
« Reply #27 on: September 25, 2020, 01:33:15 PM »
Well, no I do not agree that we all know that close third involves a certain amount of omniscient narration. In fact, I absolutely disagree. You can use omniscient and then switch to third but it is not by any means a necessary part of writing in close third. Most close third uses some more distant third but still in the voice of the character, just not as deep.

Quote
Celia Martin waited by the well for Derek to come. The well had stood there for a hundred years, the meeting place of an endless succession of courting couples. She frowned at the unwelcome allusion and busied herself with tracing the cracks in the stones. She was irritated that she was waiting, and dreading the suspicious elation she would feel when he arrived.

Not really deep third. You tell what her feeling is, irritation and dread. Nothing wrong with doing that, in fact it can be very effective but not close third and somewhat distancing for the reader. If you meant to flow into close third, in my opinion, you didn't quite do so.

No, it is absolutely not being 'weirdly experimental' to avoid using omniscient. Most authors do avoid it because good omniscient is simply hard to write.

I'm curious what information you think you conveyed in the first that you didn't in the second other than the age of the well which is likely to be pretty irrelevant. You gave more information about her feelings in the second which from the tone seems to be more relevant than that the well is a hundred years old.

The second also isn't quite close third although it's nearer. None of it is in omniscient by the way unless you mean the 'careless derek...' to be an omniscient narrator rather than her thoughts. If so, it is far too abrupt and doesn't work.

By the way, did her hip rest itself without her input or did she rest it? Why does resting her hip against the well make her 'soft' fingertips press the cracks? Why would she think about her own fingertips being soft (definitely not deep third)? Why say 'she was sure of it' (twice) since you are in her PoV and her wording indicates that she is sure of it. When you throw in the unneeded 'she is sure of it' both times, it distances it from close third. Also, I've never seen a pebble you could crumble with your fingers.

All my opinion of course which others may disagree with.

Sorry. You asked.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2020, 01:42:57 PM by JRTomlin »
 

alhawke

Re: Close third person narrator?
« Reply #28 on: September 25, 2020, 02:04:23 PM »
I find the style of the first easier to write. Is there much to be gained from working up writing like the second one? It actually takes more space to write this way. I communicated less information in the second than the first, but is it more immediate? Does it provide a better experience for the reader?
When talking about pace, your first example reads faster and clearer. But whether it provides a better experience for the reader depends on the context. Sometimes I get very detailed inside a character's head, like you did in the second example. But you have to be careful here because, speaking of pace, it can slow the flow of your writing and appear too artsy and poetic. I'm not sure your examples are as much a subject of POV as they are a discussion on writing content.

The best lesson for POV is to not head hop (as noted ^^). I still do this from time to time and I have to correct it when editing. Just stay in your character's head. Remember the story in coming from his or her mind.

Hope my thoughts help.
 

RiverRun

Re: Close third person narrator?
« Reply #29 on: September 25, 2020, 09:03:39 PM »
Well, no I do not agree that we all know that close third involves a certain amount of omniscient narration. In fact, I absolutely disagree. You can use omniscient and then switch to third but it is not by any means a necessary part of writing in close third. Most close third uses some more distant third but still in the voice of the character, just not as deep.

Quote
Celia Martin waited by the well for Derek to come. The well had stood there for a hundred years, the meeting place of an endless succession of courting couples. She frowned at the unwelcome allusion and busied herself with tracing the cracks in the stones. She was irritated that she was waiting, and dreading the suspicious elation she would feel when he arrived.

Not really deep third. You tell what her feeling is, irritation and dread. Nothing wrong with doing that, in fact it can be very effective but not close third and somewhat distancing for the reader. If you meant to flow into close third, in my opinion, you didn't quite do so.

No, it is absolutely not being 'weirdly experimental' to avoid using omniscient. Most authors do avoid it because good omniscient is simply hard to write.

I'm curious what information you think you conveyed in the first that you didn't in the second other than the age of the well which is likely to be pretty irrelevant. You gave more information about her feelings in the second which from the tone seems to be more relevant than that the well is a hundred years old.

The second also isn't quite close third although it's nearer. None of it is in omniscient by the way unless you mean the 'careless derek...' to be an omniscient narrator rather than her thoughts. If so, it is far too abrupt and doesn't work.

By the way, did her hip rest itself without her input or did she rest it? Why does resting her hip against the well make her 'soft' fingertips press the cracks? Why would she think about her own fingertips being soft (definitely not deep third)? Why say 'she was sure of it' (twice) since you are in her PoV and her wording indicates that she is sure of it. When you throw in the unneeded 'she is sure of it' both times, it distances it from close third. Also, I've never seen a pebble you could crumble with your fingers.

All my opinion of course which others may disagree with.

Sorry. You asked.


Thank you Jr. No need to be sorry. Let's pretend this is rough draft material, shall we? Your points are very good, and I noticed them too, but I'm not actually writing this story and didn't want to take the time to perfect everything. I'm just trying to figure out how to ask this question about POV I can't figure out how to ask. Looks like part of my problem is that I've got my terms mixed up. I don't want to write in omniscient so that's a good thing if I'm not doing so.

By omniscient do you mean telling what everybody is thinking all of time? I was thinking of at as straightforward narrative like 'she leaned against the well' or 'he crossed the room.' It isn't from anybody's perspective. It just happens. Maybe distant third person is the right term.

To my mind, the important detail left out of the second example is that she's dreading the elation she will feel at seeing him. This is meant to be my tension. She likes him but doesn't welcome that feeling, which is my set up for where ever this imaginary book is going. That's information that I want the reader to know, but my character might be slow to admit this to herself. It could be done I'm sure, but probably not in so a concise way. That's not terribly important though.

All I meant to say is that the first is my idea of close third person. but not 'deep' close third. The first two sentences could be told by anyone from the outside. It's the second two sentences that tell who's perspective I'm writing from and dives straight into her feelings.

The second is meant to be written as if you are in her head, thinking her thoughts and feeling the things she's feeling, without any "she felt" or "she busied herself." I thought that that was what deep third person was, but I'm very willing to be corrected.

« Last Edit: September 25, 2020, 09:35:34 PM by RiverRun »
 

RiverRun

Re: Close third person narrator?
« Reply #30 on: September 25, 2020, 09:24:37 PM »
I find the style of the first easier to write. Is there much to be gained from working up writing like the second one? It actually takes more space to write this way. I communicated less information in the second than the first, but is it more immediate? Does it provide a better experience for the reader?
When talking about pace, your first example reads faster and clearer. But whether it provides a better experience for the reader depends on the context. Sometimes I get very detailed inside a character's head, like you did in the second example. But you have to be careful here because, speaking of pace, it can slow the flow of your writing and appear too artsy and poetic. I'm not sure your examples are as much a subject of POV as they are a discussion on writing content.

The best lesson for POV is to not head hop (as noted ^^). I still do this from time to time and I have to correct it when editing. Just stay in your character's head. Remember the story in coming from his or her mind.

Hope my thoughts help.

Is artsy and poetic bad in a novel? I'm kidding. Although I like artsy and poetic in novels, which is probably why readers think my books are slow. I would like both faster pacing and artistic writing. Can I have my cake and eat it too, please?

I understand about head hopping. I know how to use POV, (thankfully) but I want to get better at using it. I want to be more effective at moving in and out of close, or deep, third person.

It sounds to me like you are saying you would skip the style of the second paragraph, unless it were something important that required the reader's attention? A quick stop to dwell on the characters emotions and then get on with the story telling?
 

JRTomlin

Re: Close third person narrator?
« Reply #31 on: September 26, 2020, 12:43:54 AM »
An omniscient narrator is one outside the story who knows everything, which makes sense omniscient means 'all-knowing'. That doesn't mean that the narrator always tells what everyone is thinking, but they could. Obviously, you only use it to tell what is worthwhile to tell from a storytelling point of view. A lot of authors find that a difficult PoV to use successfully and I'm one of them. Most 'classics' are written in omniscient. This is a fantastic example of omniscient. Omniscient does not always expound like that but always knows everything.

Quote
IT is a truth universally acknowledged, that a single man in possession of a good fortune must be in want of a wife.

However little known the feelings or views of such a man may be on his first entering a neighbourhood, this truth is so well fixed in the minds of the surrounding families, that he is considered as the rightful property of some one or other of their daughters.

I think what you are thinking of is distant third person, in which you are in one person's PoV but don't really tell what they are thinking.

Quote
The second is meant to be written as if you are in her head, thinking her thoughts and feeling the things she's feeling, without any "she felt" or "she busied herself." I thought that that was what deep third person was, but I'm very willing to be corrected.

You seem to be distinguishing between 'deep third' and 'close third' though and I consider them to be the same thing. 😜

You're right about what close third is though. My point was that since you put in a couple of 'she was sure' phrases, the second paragraph wasn't really close third. And close third does not mean that you give every single thought that pops into the PoV character's head which turns it into 'stream of consciousness'. Stream of consciousness' is the most difficult PoV to write successfully unless you happen to be James Joyce. Obviously, you chose what to show in close third just as you pick and choose what to show about the room the character is in, only showing what is significant.

Hopefully that clarifies what I was trying to say.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2020, 12:57:25 AM by JRTomlin »
 
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alhawke

Re: Close third person narrator?
« Reply #32 on: September 26, 2020, 05:37:53 AM »
It sounds to me like you are saying you would skip the style of the second paragraph, unless it were something important that required the reader's attention? A quick stop to dwell on the characters emotions and then get on with the story telling?
No, I wouldn't skip the style of your second example, I'd use it more sparingly. (I don't know about you, but I started the business to be artsy  Grin). When talking about pacing, your second example reads a bit slower than your first . So, it depends on where you are in the novel. I wouldn't start a novel like that. I'd dive into the story. Then later add a character's thoughts and feelings. Otherwise it might move too slow.

Another thing you can do when writing third person is throw in a thought as a sentence in italics from time to time. Frank Herbert's Dune taught me to do that. It's a way of cheating and adding a 1st person POV to your 3rd.

Final thing to add when you're talking about pacing is sentence structure. Short sentences move faster than Long ones. Make sure you're experimenting with that too with pacing.
 
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Denise

Re: Close third person narrator?
« Reply #33 on: September 26, 2020, 06:01:45 AM »
I appreciate you all taking the time to share your ideas. While I don't think my problem with pacing is due to POV, I think that thinking through point of view choices is a tool I can use to help me with my pacing problem, if that makes any sense.

So, we all know that close third person involves a certain amount of omniscient narration. There's compression of actions, thoughts, events. Novels are impossible without it. The close third person narration I'm thinking of is the kind that really digs deep into the MC's perspective. Maybe I can come up with an example.

I'm leaning towards historical romantic suspense right now, so this is what I've got.

Celia Martin waited by the well for Derek to come. The well had stood there for a hundred years, the meeting place of an endless succession of courting couples. She frowned at the unwelcome allusion and busied herself with tracing the cracks in the stones. She was irritated that she was waiting, and dreading the suspicious elation she would feel when he arrived.


So far so good, no? No crazy drama, but there's tension, foreshadowing, detail, whatever. A nice flow from omniscient to close third.

Or...

Derek would come to the well today, she was sure of it. Her hip rested against the edge of the well, the cracks in the stone pressing her soft fingertips. How many couples came courting here every summer? Let their hands overlap on this fractured stone? She crumbled a loose pebble in her fingers, grinding it remorselessly into dust. There would be no courting today, of that she was sure. Careless Derek, breaker of hearts, dreamer of dreams. Oh, how could you be such a fool?

Okay, so both have a certain amount of omniscient exposition. You can't get rid of that without being weirdly experimental. They are both close third person, but the last is really close. This is what I'm trying to figure out. I find the style of the first easier to write. Is there much to be gained from working up writing like the second one? It actually takes more space to write this way. I communicated less information in the second than the first, but is it more immediate? Does it provide a better experience for the reader?

I only saw this now. Fascinating discussion. I love close 3rd person and hate 1st, but many YA books are 1st person so I end up reading them.

Your second segment is close 3rd person and it's all from Celia's POV. I think that's what Maas means. It's what's expected from current prose.

In your first paragraph, the sentence "The well had stood there for a hundred years, the meeting place of an endless succession of courting couples. " doesn't look like it's from her POV and sounds as if coming from some disembodied voice. I personally don't like it. I find that each pov scene should be from the pov character's filter and pov.

I don't think it's experimental. It's what 99% of commercial 3rd person fiction uses nowadays.
 
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RiverRun

Re: Close third person narrator?
« Reply #34 on: September 26, 2020, 06:52:50 AM »
My reference to experimental was a misunderstanding. Just ignore that.

ETA - I read a short story this summer in The Atlantic. I don't typically do so but I was reading a blog that linked to it. I forget if it was in first or third but it was sooo close to the MC's perspective. It took me several paragraphs just to figure out that she was remembering conversations and not having them. Most readers, I know, are not looking for that kind of reading, and while it was interesting I wouldn't want too much of it. That's what I meant by experimental. I doubt any of us are talking about that kind of writing.

Now that JR has helped me define my terms, I'm still curious. Is a close or deep third person narrator becoming more popular across the board? Or is it just confined more to the literary/trad pubbed crowd?

It would probably be pointless to write close third just because I thought it was likely to sell. But I have a story idea that really caught my imagination (Not, sadly, the sequel I'm supposed to be writing and keep putting off) that I think might lend itself to this style. But it would take extra work and thought. I'm not sure if it would be worth the extra effort or not.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2020, 08:07:55 AM by RiverRun »
 

j tanner

Re: Close third person narrator?
« Reply #35 on: September 26, 2020, 08:30:47 AM »
Is a close or deep third person narrator becoming more popular across the board? Or is it just confined more to the literary/trad pubbed crowd?

I wouldn't say it's becoming more popular. It's pretty much the default novel voice at this time across most genres. You'll get your minor variations, first person here, present tense there, but deep immersion into the POV of the subject character(s) is the norm as far as I can tell.

I can't even recall the last book I read that strayed from that trend and I read a lot of genres.
 
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JRTomlin

Re: Close third person narrator?
« Reply #36 on: September 26, 2020, 08:35:30 AM »
Close third has been the most popular across the board in pretty much all genres and both indy and trade for a number of decades. First person has become quite popular in Young Adult in the past decade or so though, and I would say it's spreading to other genres.

Now what you are talking about in The Atlantic does sound somewhat 'experimental' or at least not using standard punctuation. In close third, normally dialogue is in quotes and internal dialogue and thoughts are not, so it's easy to distinguish. Whether internal dialogue is in plain text or italics varies, but I prefer plain text. You'll find it done both ways.  I have on a very few occasions seen internal dialogue in quotes, but with 'he thought' as a dialogue tag. It's not done much and rather off-putting. I'm not clear what that story was doing that it was hard to tell the difference but it's a publication that does occasionally experiment.

Whether it is worth it to you to try out a PoV you haven't used before is hard to say. Good luck one or the other.
 
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Lynn

Re: Close third person narrator?
« Reply #37 on: September 26, 2020, 10:05:01 AM »
Generally speaking, the deeper you are in POV, the fewer italics you'll use. In fact, I use almost none. Never for thoughts, only for emphasis.

Everything in my stories is filtered through the viewpoints of my characters. I rarely use more than two per story, and often use only one. I like the narrow focus and the way I can keep things from the reader, just because my character doesn't know it.

It also gives me lots of opportunity within my series to have perception shape a story, and then be able to tell parts of that story again from other perspectives and have it be shockingly different than what the first character thought was going on. I especially like that. :)
Don't rush me.
 
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TimothyEllis

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Re: Close third person narrator?
« Reply #38 on: September 26, 2020, 12:11:43 PM »
I like the narrow focus and the way I can keep things from the reader, just because my character doesn't know it.

That's why I prefer first.

Quote
It also gives me lots of opportunity within my series to have perception shape a story, and then be able to tell parts of that story again from other perspectives and have it be shockingly different than what the first character thought was going on. I especially like that. :)

This comes out when I do a book from someone else's pov (still in first), covering the same events. It allows you to look at something from a different cultural understanding, or from a different mindset altogether. My fans are appreciating this now.
Genres: Space Opera/Fantasy/Cyberpunk, with elements of LitRPG and GameLit, with a touch of the Supernatural. Also Spiritual and Games.



Timothy Ellis Kindle Author page. | Join the Hunter Legacy mailing list | The Hunter Imperium Universe on Facebook. | Forum Promo Page.
 

JRTomlin

Re: Close third person narrator?
« Reply #39 on: September 26, 2020, 03:22:19 PM »
I like the narrow focus and the way I can keep things from the reader, just because my character doesn't know it.

That's why I prefer first.


You do exactly the same in third though. If the PoV character doesn't know, then the reader doesn't.
 

RiverRun

Re: Close third person narrator?
« Reply #40 on: September 26, 2020, 09:46:06 PM »
Is a close or deep third person narrator becoming more popular across the board? Or is it just confined more to the literary/trad pubbed crowd?

I wouldn't say it's becoming more popular. It's pretty much the default novel voice at this time across most genres. You'll get your minor variations, first person here, present tense there, but deep immersion into the POV of the subject character(s) is the norm as far as I can tell.

I can't even recall the last book I read that strayed from that trend and I read a lot of genres.

Good point. I was thinking along the lines that there are different degrees of close third. Like, close third and REALLY close third. I wouldn't even bother trying to find a contemporary novel in omniscient because I know there isn't one (or it would be the exception to the rule).

« Last Edit: September 26, 2020, 10:12:47 PM by RiverRun »
 

RiverRun

Re: Close third person narrator?
« Reply #41 on: September 26, 2020, 09:49:25 PM »
For the sake of discussion and general procrastination, here's some snippets.

(I was already reading this series of posts on bestseller openings, so this was fresh in my mind.)

From a bestseller over the summer:

The morning one of the lost twins returned to Mallard, Lou LeBon ran to the diner to break the news, and even now, many years later, everyone remembers the shock of sweaty Lou pushing through the glass doors, chest heaving, neckline darkened with his own effort. The barely awake customers clamored around him, ten or so, although more would lie and say that they’d been there too, if only to pretend that this once, they’d witnessed something truly exciting. In that little farm town, nothing surprising ever happened, not since the Vignes twins had disappeared. But that morning in April 1968, on his way to work, Lou spotted Desiree Vignes walking along Partridge Road, carrying a small leather suitcase.

https://writerunboxed.com/2020/06/18/flog-a-pro-would-you-pay-to-turn-the-first-page-of-this-bestseller-55/

I'm sure this story switched to close third person, but apparently readers will go for a little omniscient narration from time to time.

This is the opening to a John Grisham book:

Leo spun to life in late July in the restless waters of the far eastern Atlantic, about two hundred miles west of Cape Verde. He was soon spotted from space, properly named, and classified as a mere tropical depression. Within hours he had been upgraded to a tropical storm.

For a month, strong dry winds had swept across the Sahara and collided with the moist fronts along the equator, creating swirling masses that moved westward as if searching for land. When Leo began his journey, there were three named storms ahead of him, all in a menacing row that threatened the Caribbean. All three would eventually follow their expected routes and bring heavy rains to the islands but nothing more.


https://writerunboxed.com/2020/05/21/flog-a-pro-would-you-pay-to-turn-the-first-page-of-this-bestseller-54/

You could call it distant third person I suppose. Satellite distant:)

Here's the beginning of the story from The Atlantic. It's called the Victory Lap. (The end of this story contains bad language and violence. I'm not going to link to it in case its a trigger to anyone.)

Three days shy of her fifteenth birthday, Alison Pope paused at the top of the stairs.

Say the staircase was marble. Say she descended and all heads turned. Where was {special one}? Approaching now, bowing slightly, he exclaimed, How can so much grace be contained in one small package? Oops. Had he said small package? And just stood there? Broad princelike face totally bland of expression? Poor thing! Sorry, no way, down he went, he was definitely not {special one}.

What about this guy, behind Mr. Small Package, standing near the home entertainment center? With a thick neck of farmer integrity yet tender ample lips, who, placing one hand on the small of her back, whispered, Dreadfully sorry you had to endure that bit about the small package just now. Let us go stand on the moon. Or, uh, in the moon. In the moonlight.

Had he said, Let us go stand on the moon? If so, she would have to be like, {eyebrows up}. And if no wry acknowledgment was forthcoming, be like, Uh, I am not exactly dressed for standing on the moon, which, as I understand it, is super-cold?

Come on, guys, she couldn’t keep treading gracefully on this marble staircase in her mind forever! That dear old white-hair in the tiara was getting all like, Why are those supposed princes making that darling girl march in place ad nausea? Plus she had a recital tonight and had to go fetch her tights from the dryer.

Egads! One found oneself still standing at the top of the stairs.

Do the thing where, facing upstairs, hand on railing, you hop down the stairs one at a time, which was getting a lot harder lately, due to, someone’s feet were getting longer every day, seemed like.

Pas de chat, pas de chat.

Changement, changement.

Hop over thin metal thingie separating hallway tile from living-room rug.

Curtsy to self in entryway mirror.

Come on, Mom, get here. We do not wish to be castrigated by Ms. Callow again in the wings.

Although actually she loved Ms. C. So strict! Also loved the other girls in class. And the girls from school. Loved them. Everyone was so nice. Plus the boys at her school. Plus the teachers at her school. All of them were doing their best. Actually, she loved her whole town.


It's brilliant I think, and also weird. Not just breaking the 'rules' for effect weird, but it moves so fast it's dizzying to me.
Aside from the fact that I wouldn't be able to write like this, I'm guessing most genre readers are not looking for this. Clearly close third person is the winner in contemporary writing, but I think if its TOO close, it might be off-putting.

The above is not a novel, so of course the pacing is different, but with REALLY close point of view, a writer can move very fast. My thought is that there is a technique here that has to do with narration, with how close one takes the reader into the MC's thoughts, that has an effect on pacing, and maybe even determines what the pacing is. I don't know. I'm going to keep thinking about it.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2020, 10:00:00 PM by RiverRun »
 

RiverRun

Re: Close third person narrator?
« Reply #42 on: September 26, 2020, 10:08:33 PM »
It sounds to me like you are saying you would skip the style of the second paragraph, unless it were something important that required the reader's attention? A quick stop to dwell on the characters emotions and then get on with the story telling?
No, I wouldn't skip the style of your second example, I'd use it more sparingly. (I don't know about you, but I started the business to be artsy  Grin). When talking about pacing, your second example reads a bit slower than your first . So, it depends on where you are in the novel. I wouldn't start a novel like that. I'd dive into the story. Then later add a character's thoughts and feelings. Otherwise it might move too slow.

Another thing you can do when writing third person is throw in a thought as a sentence in italics from time to time. Frank Herbert's Dune taught me to do that. It's a way of cheating and adding a 1st person POV to your 3rd.

Final thing to add when you're talking about pacing is sentence structure. Short sentences move faster than Long ones. Make sure you're experimenting with that too with pacing.

Yes, varying sentence length was something I didn't start paying attention to until recently. Opens up a lot of possibilies. That's a tool I can probably make better use of.

I used to use italics for internal dialogue. It was a lot of fun. But I else read 'Self-editing for fiction writers', by Browne and King, and it argues that italics is not really the thing anymore, so I tried leaving out the italics and it does sometimes feel more immediate. But I still see italics used in novels all the time.
 

PJ Post

Re: Close third person narrator?
« Reply #43 on: September 28, 2020, 12:36:32 AM »
I liked the thing from the Atlantic - it's all story.

The Grisham thing, though, as an example (and I've read and enjoyed most of his books) sounds like a Freshman Lit student trying to show off. It's all 'look at me' prose, rather than story.

Quote
Leo spun to life in late July in the restless waters of the far eastern Atlantic, about two hundred miles west of Cape Verde. He was soon spotted from space, properly named, and classified as a mere tropical depression. Within hours he had been upgraded to a tropical storm.

For a month, strong dry winds had swept across the Sahara and collided with the moist fronts along the equator, creating swirling masses that moved westward as if searching for land. When Leo began his journey, there were three named storms ahead of him, all in a menacing row that threatened the Caribbean. All three would eventually follow their expected routes and bring heavy rains to the islands but nothing more.

Which all boils down to the tired, metaphoric cliché:

A storm was coming.

Sorry, John.  :shrug

I have a very difficult time reading stuff like this now. Perhaps I've become a minimalist, where the only thing of importance is the story experience - character and emotion and happenings. As Elmore Leonard said, anything that sounds like writing has to go. Increasingly, it all reads as pretentious drivel. And even though, from an aficionado's perspective, I appreciate the clever turn of phrase or the occasional purple passage, when it comes to fiction, I want the author to be as transparent as possible, which is not to say devoid of personal style.

In the example from the Atlantic, the story is dripping with style. But not as an egotistical flourish. The style is central in tightening and focusing the narrative - which certainly can, and often does, affect pacing.

We can look at pacing as the rise and fall of tension, or page-turniness. First past always suffers from a lack of tension, because of the safe distance thing. Apart from some goofy gimmick, the MC will survive to tell the tale. (And, yes, there are some stories, specifically, ludicrous, melodramatic adventures with over the top MCs, that work amazingly well in first past precisely because of this.)

But, by and large, pacing and pov work much like angular momentum in physics. A common example is how a skater spins. When they draw their arms and legs closer to the center of rotation - they spin faster. Narratives work the same way. As we close in on the MC's experience, thereby tightening the narrative - it spins faster. The stakes become more dire. The tension rises. As we draw back, creating distance between the reader and the MC’s dramatic peril, such as with wordy, colorful, non-story passages, the pace slows. I think this is why first present and close third work so well - we can still slow things down to a crawl if we so choose, such as when we need to let a moment breathe, but we can do so without sacrificing any of the immediacy, and therefore, the reader’s engagement.

As a side note, the effect of narrative distance on pacing is completely separate from story beats or action sequences - even in mid-chase, mid-fall or mid-shootout, we can still slow things down with narrative distance.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2020, 12:42:40 AM by PJ Post »
 

alhawke

Re: Close third person narrator?
« Reply #44 on: September 28, 2020, 01:02:23 AM »

A storm was coming.

Good point. I didn't realize this on my read through. I suppose John Grisham can get away with anything.

RiverRun, notice with your first example, the "bestseller over the summer", that it's written almost in a rambling fashion. The rambling ends at the last sentence in order for the author to make a point. This is a perfect example of pacing done well, imo.
 

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Re: Close third person narrator?
« Reply #45 on: September 28, 2020, 01:16:17 AM »

A storm was coming.

Good point. I didn't realize this on my read through. I suppose John Grisham can get away with anything.

A lot of the airport book stand authors do this.

Stephen King is the master of using 2 pages of intro for a character who dies at the end of the second page. Most of it could be cut out as filler. What made me give up reading him was a lot of these characters get you invested, but their only purpose is to be the next casualty. I got sick of it.
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JRTomlin

Re: Close third person narrator?
« Reply #46 on: September 28, 2020, 01:27:56 AM »
Sorry, I disagree that the Atlantic story is close third. THAT is stream-of-consciousness and a pretty damned good effort at it. I mentioned that it is a PoV that very few people can do. That is still my opinion, but that author seems to be one of the few.

(By the way, there are no 'rules'. Or to put it another way, the only rule is 'can I get away with it?')

The Grisham I'd say is omniscient.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2020, 01:35:34 AM by JRTomlin »
 

j tanner

Re: Close third person narrator?
« Reply #47 on: September 28, 2020, 02:09:55 AM »
I was thinking along the lines that there are different degrees of close third. Like, close third and REALLY close third.

Ultimately, I don't think it matters. Readers won't consciously notice the difference. They might like a book a little more or a little less but they won't know why. Whichever you write, repeat purchases build your audience of people who like your style. Minor variations in POV choice won't be the make or break issue.
 
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Luke Everhart

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Re: Close third person narrator?
« Reply #48 on: September 28, 2020, 02:53:56 AM »
I liked the thing from the Atlantic - it's all story.

The Grisham thing, though, as an example (and I've read and enjoyed most of his books) sounds like a Freshman Lit student trying to show off. It's all 'look at me' prose, rather than story.

Quote
Leo spun to life in late July in the restless waters of the far eastern Atlantic, about two hundred miles west of Cape Verde. He was soon spotted from space, properly named, and classified as a mere tropical depression. Within hours he had been upgraded to a tropical storm.

For a month, strong dry winds had swept across the Sahara and collided with the moist fronts along the equator, creating swirling masses that moved westward as if searching for land. When Leo began his journey, there were three named storms ahead of him, all in a menacing row that threatened the Caribbean. All three would eventually follow their expected routes and bring heavy rains to the islands but nothing more.

Which all boils down to the tired, metaphoric cliché:

A storm was coming.

Sorry, John.  :shrug

I have a very difficult time reading stuff like this now. Perhaps I've become a minimalist, where the only thing of importance is the story experience - character and emotion and happenings. As Elmore Leonard said, anything that sounds like writing has to go. Increasingly, it all reads as pretentious drivel. And even though, from an aficionado's perspective, I appreciate the clever turn of phrase or the occasional purple passage, when it comes to fiction, I want the author to be as transparent as possible, which is not to say devoid of personal style.

In the example from the Atlantic, the story is dripping with style. But not as an egotistical flourish. The style is central in tightening and focusing the narrative - which certainly can, and often does, affect pacing.


Great illustration of the subjectivity of reader taste. 🤔🤷‍♂️
While I wasn't grabbed by the Grisham opening, it seemed like an acceptable opening with nothing to actually turn me off.
By contrast, the bit from the Atlantic reads like a convoluted mess to me. It reads like the author is trying WAY too hard to be unique (imo it drips with "egotistical flourish" to use your phrase); and, perhaps, like it might have been written with chemical assistance and is probably best read with the same. 😏
(I get that it's supposed to be stream of consciousness (at least I think so) but it's either poorly done or one messy mind I'd rather not get streamed)

« Last Edit: September 28, 2020, 02:56:32 AM by Luke Everhart »
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Jeff Tanyard

Re: Close third person narrator?
« Reply #49 on: September 28, 2020, 06:38:04 AM »
Great illustration of the subjectivity of reader taste. 🤔🤷‍♂️


Yep.  Like you, I'd much rather read the Grisham book than the Atlantic article.  And I'm not even a Grisham reader.  (No offense meant to Grisham fans; legal thrillers just aren't my thing.  I did enjoy the movie The Firm, though, so maybe I'd like the book, too, if I gave it a shot.)


Sorry, I disagree that the Atlantic story is close third. THAT is stream-of-consciousness...

The Grisham I'd say is omniscient.


I agree.
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