Author Topic: Converting serious lit into big business  (Read 2017 times)

Hopscotch

Converting serious lit into big business
« on: November 10, 2023, 03:47:21 AM »
This puff piece – “Days of The Jackal: how Andrew Wylie turned serious literature into big business,” The Guardian, 9 Nov 2023 – still says some interesting things:

“Andrew Wylie, the world’s most renowned – and for a long time its most reviled – literary agent…reshaped the business of publishing in profound and, some say, insalubrious ways….A crop of younger agents and large talent agencies [now are attempting] to adapt many of Wylie’s business strategies to a new reality, in which literary culture is highly fragmented and clients are less likely to be novelists or historians than ‘multichannel artists’ with books, podcasts and Netflix deals….Wylie thinks that’s bunk. Even if the era of high literary fame is dead, he believes great literature continues to represent the best long-term investment. ‘Shakespeare is more interesting and more valuable than Microsoft and Walt Disney combined,’…All the Bard of Avon lacked was a good trademark lawyer, a long-term estate management plan and, of course, the right agent….”  Wylie portrays today’s publishing industry “as offering up the fast food of the mind. The attitude of most publishers and agents, he said, is roughly: ‘F*ck ’em, we’ll feed them McDonald’s. It may kill them, but they’ll buy it.’ Bestsellers are the greasy burgers of this metaphor. If you read the bestseller list, Wylie went on, ‘You will end up fat and stupid and nationalistic.…Put down your Colleen Hoover and begin to live!’”…

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2023/nov/09/andrew-wylie-agency-days-of-the-jackal-serious-literature-big-business
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littleauthor

Re: Converting serious lit into big business
« Reply #1 on: November 10, 2023, 07:45:42 AM »
At a very early age, I read some of the most popular books of the day and each time, I came away unsatisfied.  They lacked something my brain needed. I now accept that I can't read commercial fiction. Maybe because I write? I don't know. I don't write at a high level. I write McDonald's or maybe Subway. But the only reading that satisfies me is the really top level, semi-obscure, deep in the basement of Zon rankings literature.
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Post-Crisis D

Re: Converting serious lit into big business
« Reply #2 on: November 10, 2023, 08:11:08 AM »
At a very early age, I read some of the most popular books of the day and each time, I came away unsatisfied.  They lacked something my brain needed.

Maybe the top selling stuff is greasy hamburgers.  I know the common "wisdom" is to study the top selling books in your genre(s) to see what readers are looking for, but of all those top selling books in my genre(s) that I have purchased to study, I have been able to finish not a single one of them.
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Bill Hiatt

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Re: Converting serious lit into big business
« Reply #3 on: November 11, 2023, 12:03:54 AM »
I also like the deep-in-the-Zon-basement literary stuff, but I enjoy many other things as well, including writers in my own genre.

For whatever reason, I have no trouble finding fantasy works that appeal to me. Each one is like an adventure into someone else's imagination.

Interestingly, I haven't liked the work of a particular prominent author who shall remain nameless. The style was reasonable, but the plot was very similar to another book I'd read, though I'm not sure in which direction the dependence lay, if indeed there was dependence. At the very least, the plot had an it's-been-done-before feel. Tropes were everywhere, and I didn't see much originality. But I'm happy to report this is the exception for me rather than the rule.

In the past, I've had some luck with going to my Amazon author page and checking out the "Customers also bought items by" section. That isn't foolproof, but sometimes it does point me in the direction of an author I end up really liking. Most of the people who show up there are indie authors, which makes sense. 


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Crystal

Re: Converting serious lit into big business
« Reply #4 on: November 11, 2023, 05:00:09 AM »
Shakespeare was the Colleen Hover of his time. His plays were popular literature. They're what we'd now call upmarket [whatever genre] fiction.

A lot of classic authors wrote commercial fiction.

Listen, I understand the sentiment. The give people junk, who cares attitude sucks. But so does the attitude that genre fiction has to be junk. Plenty of genre fiction is smart and compelling, with juicy thematic material. A lot of classics would be branded as commercial fiction if they came out these days.

On a semi-related note, I don't think high school students are gaining much from reading 4-6 plays by Shakespeare rather than reading 1-2 plays by Shakespeare and 3-4 plays by other playwrights. IIRC we read two or three non Shakespeare plays across four years of English (and one was American Lit! So he wouldn't have qualified). The bard is extremely overused in education.
 

LilyBLily

Re: Converting serious lit into big business
« Reply #5 on: November 11, 2023, 08:06:26 AM »
In my high school we read one Shakespeare per year. I don’t remember anything else that was assigned. In junior high (yes, I’m that old) we had a choice of Kim or Jane Eyre one year. I chose Jane Eyre and have never looked back. Shakespeare is okay, but Dickens was the pits. Hated all Dickens’ smarm. But if one wants to write a Victorian, he’s the one to emulate for all the awful characters.
 

Crystal

Re: Converting serious lit into big business
« Reply #6 on: November 11, 2023, 08:14:31 AM »
And not to be too much a parody of myself, but I did notice both this guy's examples of crap are romances written by women. There are plenty of crappy thrillers (written by men). Why not point out one of those?

(For real, if I made a list of the dumbest books I've ever read, thrillers would take most of the top 20 spots).
 

RiverRun

Re: Converting serious lit into big business
« Reply #7 on: November 11, 2023, 09:01:02 AM »
Quote
Wylie often claims that he does not have a personality of his own, and is constantly in search of one. “I have this sort of hollow core,” he likes to say.

I have never heard of this person before, but he sounds frightening.
Quote
He rented a storefront in Greenwich Village from which he attempted to sell his college library, including editions of Heraclitus in multiple European languages. Bob Dylan and John Cage were occasional customers, but “business was not brisk”, Wylie has said. Bunting wrote with condolences: “It is equally difficult to read the books that sell or sell the books you can read.”

Ah! The dilemmas of the book selling business. Wylie seemingly learned how to sell the books he did love. (Though I confess I didn't finish reading the article.)

I think this article reinforces the point that bestsellers and big names are as much a result of good marketing, rather than just talented authors.

Still.

There have been many times when I read a book that seemed well praised by others and soundly disappointed me. And frequently times when I could tell from the first page that I was in the hands of a really good writer, knew I would love the author, and did. There is definitely something other than just 'tell a good story' going on with a brilliant book. The only name I know for that is 'literary'. I aspire to having that quality too, but suspect I still have a long way to go. When I first got interested in self-publishing, I was surprised to realize how many writers didn't care particularly about writing craft and literary praise. After reading a lot of Kristine Kathryn Rush, I started to realize how much of that world is just an echo chamber. But I still have those favorite 'literary' books I come back to over and over, while the commercial successes are read once and quickly forgotten. What are they doing right? And why is it so few readers seem to care? A complicated question indeed.
 

Hopscotch

Re: Converting serious lit into big business
« Reply #8 on: November 11, 2023, 10:29:03 AM »
...the commercial successes are read once and quickly forgotten. What are they doing right? And why is it so few readers seem to care? A complicated question indeed.

Bingo.  Or maybe Babbitt.
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Bill Hiatt

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Re: Converting serious lit into big business
« Reply #9 on: November 12, 2023, 12:53:33 AM »
I totally agree that there's a lot of great genre fiction out there. There's even a lot that stimulates the mind.

We need to keep in mind that the modern distinctions between literary fiction and genre fiction would have been incomprehensible to people of earlier generations. If you look at the classics, even though the same people who praise literary fiction praise them as well, many of them are genre fiction.  The Odyssey, Iliad, Aeneid, and other epic poems, if novelized today, would all be classified as fantasy. Edgar Allan Poe? Horror, of course. Mark Twain? Humor, action-adventure, coming of age. (Twain was thoroughly disliked by many of the literary critics of his day, and the feeling was mutual.) Arthur Conan Doyle? Mystery, of course. And so on. All fiction was literary in some way. As for the really "artsy" stuff (which sometimes has no discernible plot).

On the subject of plays, they weren't even regarded as literature in Shakespeare's time. They were very much looked down upon, despite the fact that nobles and even royalty attended private performances. Shakespeare (or whoever may have written the plays ascribed to him  grint) knew how to appeal to the groundlings just as well as the nobles, which is one of the reason his work were more popular than those of other playwrights and are certainly more often performed today.

On the subject of teaching Shakespeare, my old high school did follow a one-Shakespeare-a-year model (the high school progression being Romeo and Juliet, Macbeth, Othello and Hamlet). But we also included other plays (Greek tragedy, George Bernard Shaw, Arthur Miller, Tennessee Williams, etc.) I know that sounds pretty much like dead white men, but we also included literature from a variety of other groups.


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Hopscotch

Re: Converting serious lit into big business
« Reply #10 on: November 12, 2023, 02:41:33 AM »
...there's a lot of great genre fiction out there. There's even a lot that stimulates the mind.

Some old Greek came up w/the concept of genre in fiction and named just two - Tragedy and Comedy.  Those old Greeks who preferred Tragedy snobbed those preferring Comedy and the reverse.  Today literary fiction-lovers snob genre fiction and genre-lovers snob right back.  So what?  If you like it, read it.  Period.  Your only loss is that you're not reading my stuff, and that's tragic.
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LilyBLily

Re: Converting serious lit into big business
« Reply #11 on: November 12, 2023, 02:45:45 AM »
Whatever the lacks of my high school assigned reading, I had access to tons of books always and have voluntarily read plenty of literary fiction as well as genre. But bestseller fiction, what used to be called mainstream fiction, has always left me cold. So have literary works whose purpose was to demonstrate how people do not connect and how obnoxious people are to each other. I want my happy endings and deserving characters.

We had a big discussion at a romance writing workshop years ago about why people whose writing is technically pretty bad nevertheless were bestselling authors. We concluded it was their pacing. I think that's definitely true of Dan Brown, for instance. Readers want to know "what happens next?" and plow through some very basic storytelling to find out. Add some interesting plot devices, and there you are. I also observed that writers of that ilk are very light on character depth and thus on emotion. It's not that their characters don't love and suffer, but somehow, the reader is a step away from them as it happens; genre novels bring readers in very close.
 

Hopscotch

Re: Converting serious lit into big business
« Reply #12 on: November 12, 2023, 03:18:37 AM »
RiverRun asks, Why do so few readers seem to care about the quality of the reading they choose?  Could it be, I wondered, that readers are too damn ignorant to recognize quality (bc poor public education, low national IQ, etc).  Then I recalled that The Great Gatsby was a commercial failure in 1925.  But after World War II a massive success.  Bc in the war years the Pentagon had introduced quality fiction to soldiers in foxholes as part of its distro of 100M free paperback editions.  Now I think the discerning audience is there but too many writers (and their marketing methods) are letting them down.
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Bill Hiatt

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Re: Converting serious lit into big business
« Reply #13 on: November 12, 2023, 04:36:53 AM »
Let's hope we don't need another world war to jumpstart interest in fiction.

It's so true that people have different tastes, and we probably shouldn't be snobbish about them.

I'm not sure the ancient Greeks had that kind of literary snobbery, though I suppose some time could have liked comedy more than tragedy and vice versa. Both started as religious activities in honor of the god Dionysus. Aristophanes does make fun of the older tragedians, though he makes fun of a lot of others as well.

As for happy endings, yes, I'm inclined to like them, too. Really depressing literature doesn't appeal to me.


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LilyBLily

Re: Converting serious lit into big business
« Reply #14 on: November 12, 2023, 07:08:26 AM »
It's not surprising that The Great Gatsby was a failure initially. Fitzgerald's earlier works were mostly fluffy. The Beautiful and Damned wasn't, yet it was about lightweight people and there was no narrator/observer to interpret or leaven their tragedy. (Not very different from Georgette Heyer's early tragic novels, in fact. The twenties did see plenty of serious novels that failed.) If you've read This Side of Paradise, Fitzgerald's initial huge hit, you know it's mostly a pastiche and the success was based on the attitudes expressed, not the storyline. Gatsby was different, a work of mastery, and certainly not fluffy at all. No wonder it had to find a different audience.
 

Jeff Tanyard

Re: Converting serious lit into big business
« Reply #15 on: November 12, 2023, 03:16:18 PM »
If you look at the classics, even though the same people who praise literary fiction praise them as well, many of them are genre fiction. 


If Bram Stoker was here, I suspect he would describe the lit-fic crowd as a bunch of prigs of the first water.  He would then point to the existence of all the Dracula movies--and NOT any praise from literary critics--as the ultimate proof of his merit.


Quote
On the subject of teaching Shakespeare, my old high school did follow a one-Shakespeare-a-year model (the high school progression being Romeo and Juliet, Macbeth, Othello and Hamlet).


When I was in school, we studied Julius Caesar, Romeo and Juliet, and Macbeth.  I think that was it; just those three.  We had to memorize the "Friends, Romans, Countrymen" speech and another speech from elsewhere in the play.  And we watched the 1968 Romeo and Juliet movie in the classroom, something that might be a no-go today (and probably correctly so).

My favorite of the three plays was Macbeth, of course.  How could it not be?  It's got soldiers and battles and witchcraft and prophecies and military subterfuge and assassinations and everything else a growing boy could want.


Today literary fiction-lovers snob genre fiction and genre-lovers snob right back. 


The difference is that we're all forced to read lit-fic in school.  If we have negative feelings towards it, then those feelings have been earned the hard way.  If high schools regularly assigned Tom Clancy or Dan Brown or E.L. James, then the lit-fic crowd's negative opinions of genre fiction would be similarly justified, but that's not the case at present.


But bestseller fiction, what used to be called mainstream fiction, has always left me cold. So have literary works whose purpose was to demonstrate how people do not connect and how obnoxious people are to each other. I want my happy endings and deserving characters.


Amen, sister.   :cheers


Let's hope we don't need another world war to jumpstart interest in fiction.


There will always be an interest in fiction.  The only question is what form it will take.  We now live in the age of video on demand and rampant illiteracy, so it's only natural that the younger generations would prefer to get their fiction from tv and movies and YouTube rather than from the written word.  I think this situation will eventually reverse itself, but it might take a civilizational and technological collapse for it to happen.
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Hopscotch

Re: Converting serious lit into big business
« Reply #16 on: November 12, 2023, 06:17:33 PM »
...If you've read This Side of Paradise, Fitzgerald's initial huge hit, you know it's mostly a pastiche and the success was based on the attitudes expressed, not the storyline. Gatsby was different, a work of mastery...

Only half agree.  Fitzgerald wrote the most beautiful American English but never - even in Gatsby - found a storyline worthy of his words.
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Hopscotch

Re: Converting serious lit into big business
« Reply #17 on: November 12, 2023, 06:30:01 PM »
The difference is that we're all forced to read lit-fic in school.  If we have negative feelings towards it, then those feelings have been earned the hard way.

I used to think schools should stop wasting effort trying to teach the best books to unformed young minds but teach the second-best books, instead, leaving the best to be discovered only when a reader is ready.  But stats suggest most people barely read so discovery is a hopeless idea.  Now I blame the teachers - your "forced to read" - for failing to connect books and students. 
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LilyBLily

Re: Converting serious lit into big business
« Reply #18 on: November 13, 2023, 01:04:14 AM »
I don't feel it's fair to blame teachers. Families that provide their children with books and read to them and take them to the public library inculcate a love of reading early. Families that don't read send their children to school with basically an adversarial approach, that is, "We get our learning from moving pictures" and "Reading is a foreign art." Then teachers have an uphill battle to show kids that books open windows on the world.

My cousins quite literally had zero books in their house last time I visited. That doesn't mean they remain totally ignorant, but that they get their information from other sources. I know multiple people with PhDs who are well versed in public affairs and many other topics who don't even read one book in a year. And some who might read a book but who don't read any novels. As much as I am happy to condemn my cousins as yahoos, the fact is, learning is possible from sources other than books. Heresy!
 

Bill Hiatt

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Re: Converting serious lit into big business
« Reply #19 on: November 13, 2023, 01:10:06 AM »
The difference is that we're all forced to read lit-fic in school.  If we have negative feelings towards it, then those feelings have been earned the hard way.

I used to think schools should stop wasting effort trying to teach the best books to unformed young minds but teach the second-best books, instead, leaving the best to be discovered only when a reader is ready.  But stats suggest most people barely read so discovery is a hopeless idea.  Now I blame the teachers - your "forced to read" - for failing to connect books and students.
As a former teacher, I think some clarifications are in order.

Teaching is one of those professions in which you get criticized by someone no matter what you do. If you teach the classics (a term that itself raises all kinds of debate), you get criticized for forcing students to read books they aren't interested in. If you instead adjust the curriculum to the interests of the students, you get criticized for not teaching the classics. (This is, of course, on top of all the other criticisms, such as not being able to achieve great results with inadequate resources--what one of my friends calls the problem of "Mercedes expectations on a Volkswagen budget".)

It's worth noting that a lot of teachers have found ways of balancing these competing demands, using the classics (however defined) as the books all students read and allowing a far wider range of choice for book reports. They also try to find ways to interest students in the classics, most of which have survived because their authors had something important to say that can still resonate with us. That effort is not always successful, but based on my anonymous year-end surveys, I can say that it worked more often than I might have thought before trying it.

It's also worth noting that students don't always agree among themselves about what they want to read. They vary as much as in their tastes as do older people. Think about how inconsistent reviews on Amazon can be, not just for us, but for major bestsellers. (Yes, JK Rowling gets some bad reviews. When I was down, I used to cheer myself up by reading the one-stars on some famous authors.) Well, high school students split in the same ways. There isn't a book, whether modern or classic, that won't get at least one five-star and one one-star in a typical class. (The exception would be a book that's way too hard for all of them. Faulkner's The Sound and the Fury comes to mind. But titles like that seldom appear outside of AP classes, and very seldom, even then.)

Finally, remember that teachers aren't necessarily the ones making curricular decisions. Those decisions are often made by administrators, by local school boards, or even by state legislatures. Frankly, one of the our problems with educational policymaking is that major decisions are often in the hands of non-educators. But that doesn't prevent educators from being blamed for them.

Of course, teachers are human and do make mistakes. But they aren't the main source of problems in education, at least not in my experience. 
« Last Edit: November 14, 2023, 07:13:04 AM by Bill Hiatt »


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Re: Converting serious lit into big business
« Reply #20 on: November 13, 2023, 01:15:35 AM »
I don't feel it's fair to blame teachers. Families that provide their children with books and read to them and take them to the public library inculcate a love of reading early. Families that don't read send their children to school with basically an adversarial approach, that is, "We get our learning from moving pictures" and "Reading is a foreign art." Then teachers have an uphill battle to show kids that books open windows on the world.

My cousins quite literally had zero books in their house last time I visited. That doesn't mean they remain totally ignorant, but that they get their information from other sources. I know multiple people with PhDs who are well versed in public affairs and many other topics who don't even read one book in a year. And some who might read a book but who don't read any novels. As much as I am happy to condemn my cousins as yahoos, the fact is, learning is possible from sources other than books. Heresy!
A great deal of research confirms the positive role that parents can play in all aspects of education, but certainly in the early development of literacy.

Teachers are the most important variable over which the educational system has some control. But parents are even more important.

That said, students can develop problems that aren't caused by anything either parents or teachers did wrong. And with the growing economic pressure for both parents to work, it's hard for parents to be as involved in their children's education as they used to be. Like teachers, they may face resource constraints over which they have at best limited control.


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littleauthor

Re: Converting serious lit into big business
« Reply #21 on: November 13, 2023, 02:08:32 AM »
I haven't read the entire thread - but I thought of one commerical fiction writer that I like - don't ask me why - but I love Dan Brown's stuff. He's terrible but he's not terrrible in a way that my brain utterly rejects.

I read Joan Sutherland's biography of Mrs Humphrey Ward. She was an Victorian/Edwardian author of pot-boilers. She made gobs of money from her books in her day. Her contemporaries were Oscar Wilde, H. G. Wells, Virginia Woolf, Aldous Huxley and Ezra Pound. I had never heard of Mrs Ward and her books are nowhere to be found today but she was massively popular.

I'm always reminding myself I'm aiming for Mrs. Ward level of success--not Virginia Woolf.
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RiverRun

Re: Converting serious lit into big business
« Reply #22 on: November 13, 2023, 01:12:44 PM »
I grew up in a family of relative non-readers. My folks occasionally picked up a popular novel, but otherwise, all we had was some picture books accrued through one of those yearly memberships, and a lot of Reader's Digest. I took home a lot of paperbacks from School fairs, but didn't get all that interested in reading until I was in Middle School. Then I was the weird, bookish one in the family.

I grew up in a small town where Red Neck was descriptive and not an insult. My mother could sew a dress, bake homemade bread, change a tire, start a fire and cook a meal over it. She could do a host of things I can't do. But she had only a rough idea of who Shakespeare was and had probably never heard of Jane Austen.  There's a lot of intelligence in my family but not the academic kind.

I did read one Shakespeare play in high school. (Romeo and Juliet) The Great Gatsby. To Kill a Mockingbird. Beowulf. But I think we must have read kind of slow, and not always the harder works. My teachers worked with the students they had, clearly. I got to college and entered a humanities program with a heavy reading list. I was reading the Iliad when I had never read the Odyssey. Thucydidies, Aristophanes, Dostoyevsky. Kafka. We were assigned Jane Eyre but there was only one lecture on it. I just skipped the whole book. (The irony) I read Pride and Prejudice and understood almost none of it. The teacher gave no background. Most kids in the class had already read it, and we were only reading it to understand E. M. Forster's ideas on story analysis. (This was after I decided to major in English). I got through it all because I like to read and I was good at writing essays. But I've reflected a lot on my education over the years, and it was lacking in some things compared to the kids I was in college with.

As an adult I've gone back to Mockingbird, Jane Austen, The Great Gatsby, and learned to love them. I've read all the Brontes' books. I've re-read many classics and treasure them. I'm glad I was made to read some of them in high school, because otherwise I would never have been exposed to them. If you don't know something exists, you aren't going to go looking for it. Even though I struggled with them in high school. Without a doubt, reading is a skill that requires practice, as much as baking bread. I hope no one listens when people declare that such books should be removed from the classroom! As a friend of mine put it, its like  offering vegetables to your kids. They may choose not to eat them as adults, but you still have to serve them or how will they know to eat them?

Not everyone is going to revel in a literary turn of phrase, or care to seek out a hard book after they have gotten thru it for school. That's okay. But the less we read, and the lesser books we read, the less we are as people.

Essay over.

I think the point on pacing is an important one. Umberto Eco's The Name of the Rose is a pretty tense tome, but still somehow manages to be fast paced. (I didn't think about this until Stephen King pointed it out in On Writing.)

And having read some of the successful books of classic authors, as well as some of the less popular of their works, there is a noticeable difference in pacing. Dickens' Bleak House has some pretty compelling moments, but it could never beat A Christmas Carol for keeping a reader glued to the page. (Probably because Dickens was paid best for writing serials, not for volume of individual sales.)

I was just re-reading Charlotte Bronte's Shirley, and I still love it so much, but compared to Jane Eyre, its slow, slow, slow. I seriously love this book but its such a different reading experience.

But sometimes, too, the literary style gets in a reader's way. C. S. Lewis writes about this in 'On Stories', or maybe somewhere else. I forget. He argues that for the ordinary reader, the uneducated man on the street who doesn't read much, he or she brings her own imagination to the reading experience. A story full of vague characters and stereotypical tropes can, for the right reader at the right time, open a world of wonder. Because of what their mind is creating, built upon the story their reading.

That may be why Colleen Hoover has struck such a chord. I've only read the look inside for one of her books and knew she was not for me. But from what I've  read, I think there's an 'every man' or every woman quality to her writing. She seems to be good at capturing a lot of what women (younger than me) already feel and think and struggle with all at once. I expect Dan Brown has something of the same gift. Characters that to me seem flat stereotypes, to another reader, are familiar and relatable in a way that allows them to easily build their own imaginative and emotional landscape on those characters.
 
Happy the writer who can write such characters and stories with universal appeal, and add to that brilliant literary ability. Charlotte Bronte did it, but with only her second book.
 
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LilyBLily

Re: Converting serious lit into big business
« Reply #23 on: November 13, 2023, 02:01:46 PM »
When I first read Wuthering Heights as a teenager--which I bought because the Dell paperback cover was pretty and it was a style match for the Dell edition of Jane Eyre--I felt that the writing style was very histrionic and confusing. I did not like the story, although I had some silly fantasies about turning the tragedy into a romantic happy ending. A few years ago, I read it again because it was the choice of my library book club. To my surprise, I had no trouble with the writing style at all. Still hated Cathy and Heathcliff big time, though.

Somehow, after decades of poisoning/starving my brain by reading thousands of simply written genre romances, my ability to read a complex story has matured. I may need to go back to some other classics I disliked and read them again.

As for my own writing, it features people who don't talk in hyperbole. It is my hope that I create characters the readers don't hate. 

 

Jeff Tanyard

Re: Converting serious lit into big business
« Reply #24 on: November 13, 2023, 02:45:06 PM »
In my opinion, the best way to get kids into reading is to give them stuff they're inclined to like.  If that means giving a boy a comic book about space cowboys, then give him the comic.  Don't saddle him with some narcissistic author's exercise in vanity or sanctimony or self-loathing (which is what an awful of lit-fic novels boil down to).

When that boy finishes his comic, he'll probably be interested in another one just like it.  After he's digested a few space cowboy comics and become semi-bored with them and has developed a fondness for the written word, he might decide to try something different, perhaps an actual cowboy novel by Louis L'Amour.  After a number of those, maybe he'll try another genre like fantasy or detective stories, and so on, perhaps even eventually finding his way to Stephen King or Cormac McCarthy or some other ivory-tower-approved author.  First learn stand, then learn fly.  Nature's rule, Daniel-san, not mine.  And maybe Daniel-san will never learn to fly, but he might become a pretty good runner, and that's a lot better than having never learned to stand at all.

This isn't rocket science, but it does require some conscientiousness, patience, open-mindedness, and humility on the part of the adults who are trying to get the kids to read.  It requires a valuation and appreciation of genre fiction that has hitherto been largely absent.  Now that we live in an era of rampant social promotion where illiterate kids are taking remedial reading courses as college freshmen, it's even more important than ever to take these things into consideration.

Or we can keep doing the same old things, keep getting the same results, and continue to wring our hands about declining literacy.


Of course, teachers are human and do make mistakes. But they aren't the main source of problems in education, at least not in my experience. 


It's the institution itself that is the problem.  I read Gatto's book back when it was a free read on his web site--gosh, that must have been twenty years ago by now--and I agree with his thesis.  Public schools are designed to produce compliant factory workers who do as they're told.  Any learning that happens is a secondary consideration, not the primary one.  There are good teachers, and there are bad teachers, and there's the bulk of teachers who fall in between, but like unplugged people in The Matrix, they're still all part of that system.  My sister's a teacher, and a pretty darn good one according to her students and peers, and I fully support her in her career and wish her all the best, but none of that changes how I feel about the system itself.


Somehow, after decades of poisoning/starving my brain by reading thousands of simply written genre romances, my ability to read a complex story has matured.


In my opinion, your experience is how it's actually supposed to work.  If I was appointed Reading Czar of America's public schools, I would ditch all the lit-fic and replace it with genre stuff.  My favorite books as a kid--the ones I always wanted more of--weren't the ones assigned in school.  They were the ones I picked out myself.  They were genre books.  In middle school, it was Weis and Hickman's Darksword trilogy.  I re-read those books multiple times.  I think adolescent boys would be far better served by the Darksword trilogy than by The Outsiders or Alas, Babylon or some other socio-political sermon that was already outdated by the time the reader was born.

As for the girls, well, I don't know, because I was never a girl, but I'd be happy to defer those decisions to you as my co-Czar.   :icon_mrgreen:

I would still have lit-fic books available to students, but on an elective basis, not as a requirement.
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Vijaya

Re: Converting serious lit into big business
« Reply #25 on: November 14, 2023, 02:03:12 AM »
I think in general people are reading less and have difficulty concentrating. And it's not just the younger folks, either. I was at a church rummage sale and I rented a table to sell books and several people stopped by and got the children's books but not the novel because 1) too dense 2) can't concentrate 3) my kids/grandkids don't read

The best thing we ever did for our kids was not having a TV or video games in our home for the 1st decade of their life. Books were the entertainment and we'd have family movie nights. Even after we got a TV, it rarely gets turned on except to watch a movie on the weekends. I'd say they didn't take more time reading for pleasure during high school (coincided with driving and a personal cell phone, which I blame) and during college, but both are out of school and have returned to reading for pleasure. My son is a voracious reader. Better read than me with his classical education at a small Catholic school. I recently read a collection of stories set in Charleston--really it's a love letter to the city--and encourage the author to find a local publisher. It's called Views from Vauxhall. But honestly, I don't know if there's a market for it. Will wait and see.

But we like what we like and I'm grateful we have all kinds of stories to sink our teeth into. Happy reading and writing.


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Bill Hiatt

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Re: Converting serious lit into big business
« Reply #26 on: November 14, 2023, 08:10:02 AM »
Once again, I must point out how much better a lot of our discussions are than what I see on social media. Anyway,
Quote
It's the institution itself that is the problem.  I read Gatto's book back when it was a free read on his web site--gosh, that must have been twenty years ago by now--and I agree with his thesis.  Public schools are designed to produce compliant factory workers who do as they're told.  Any learning that happens is a secondary consideration, not the primary one.  There are good teachers, and there are bad teachers, and there's the bulk of teachers who fall in between, but like unplugged people in The Matrix, they're still all part of that system.  My sister's a teacher, and a pretty darn good one according to her students and peers, and I fully support her in her career and wish her all the best, but none of that changes how I feel about the system itself.
I haven't yet read Gatto's book, but I have seen similar theories floated. My basic response is that institutions evolve over time. Even if Gatto has assembled evidence that some people involved in public education wanted to produce compliant factory workers, a lot has changed over the decades. That description doesn't fit any of the schools I attended, any of the schools where I taught, or any of the schools where my friends taught. I'm not existing in some island of perfection, so I have to assume that, at the very least, Gatto is overgeneralizing what is actually a much more complex reality.

Before launching into the general subject, I'll point out that assumptions on early levels of literacy are derived from self-reported data like the US census. Definitions of literacy would have varied widely, and I can see a lot more psychological reasons to overreport literacy than I can to underreport it. It's also worth noting that a lot of other things changed in the decades during which public school became the norm (including growth in the non-native English speaking population, and the increasing inclusion of freed slaves and their descendants, most of whom didn't get much education early on). In other words, comparing literacy rates derived from different populations and reliant on different methods of collection isn't likely to lead to valid conclusions.

Keeping in mind that there isn't much demand for factory workers now, good schools place much more emphasis on developing skills, such as critical thinking, that could be useful in virtually any context. In fact, factory workers would actually need very little of what is taught in any good high school. Schools do require a certain minimum of decorum (as do most jobs), but in my experience, they aren't trying to enforce compliance.  The job is not to breed sheep but to help students become effective participants in a democratic society. In the school where I spent most of my career, the discussion of controversial issues was encouraged (as long as the teacher wasn't editorializing and as long as multiple viewpoints were represented). That's not something you'd do in a school where you wanted to enforce compliance. Even in my last year of teaching, my students, with typical adolescent inquisitiveness, were still asking what my political affiliation was. Since I also taught a unit in the Bible as literature in my Freshman Honors English class, they also kept asking about my religious background. They never got answers to either of those questions, not the result you'd expect in a setting geared to inculcating compliance. Nor did our graduates mostly end up working in factories. Law, medicine, management, and the entertainment industry were the top four career paths (not always in that order). A number of our graduates went into politics (some as Democrats, some as Republicans, some as members of minor parties, some as independents). Again, not what you'd expect in an institution geared to preparing compliant factory workers to produce.

Home schooling, which seems to be the model Gatto advocates, can be effective, but it requires parental sophistication, as well as a lot of time and/or money. Very few parents have the breadth of academic background to teach all subjects themselves, and hiring tutors to fill gaps can be pricey, depending upon where one lives. It's worth noting that school closures during the pandemic, far from bringing joy to parents eager to discover how great home schooling could be, produced considerable parental angst instead. That's partly because, even in affluent communities, there aren't that many full-time, stay-at-home parents. But that's exactly what you would need to convert to a home schooling model. (Strangely enough, most adolescents, left to their own devices, may not stay on task very well.)

That's not to say that schools are perfect. Like all human institutions, they have flaws. Some are even systemic. But being geared to produce compliant factory workers isn't one of those flaws.   




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Jeff Tanyard

Re: Converting serious lit into big business
« Reply #27 on: November 14, 2023, 04:43:46 PM »
I think in general people are reading less and have difficulty concentrating. And it's not just the younger folks, either.


Can confirm.  I absolutely have this problem.  I have to mentally downshift in order to force my mind to operate at a slow enough pace to read books now, and it really annoys me that I have to do this.

I recently watched Chariots of Fire again for the first time in a long time, and I had to force myself to stick with it during the slow-paced first half of the movie.   :confused:
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Re: Converting serious lit into big business
« Reply #28 on: November 15, 2023, 12:17:26 AM »
Yeah, we are programmed for a faster pace.

There are definitely times when I feel as if I have late onset ADHD. My curren project is trying to avoid rapidly shifting from one thing to another, especially when I'm actually trying to write.


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Post-Crisis D

Re: Converting serious lit into big business
« Reply #29 on: November 15, 2023, 04:00:27 AM »
Home schooling, which seems to be the model Gatto advocates, can be effective, but it requires parental sophistication, as well as a lot of time and/or money. Very few parents have the breadth of academic background to teach all subjects themselves . . .

When I was in school, I had teachers that seemingly didn't even have a breadth of knowledge in the subjects they were teaching.  There were also teachers that did not stray from what the textbook contained.  Additionally, home schooling is not home colleging.  Most parents already learned in school everything they would need to teach their kids.  Even if they've forgotten things, they can read up on it prior to instructing their kids.  And, if there are things they aren't fully familiar with, they can teach their kids what might be one of the most important things of all: how to look things up and evaluate sources and properly research subjects.

Plus, there are homeschooling parents that form groups so they can help each other, especially in different subjects they may not be as familiar with as another homeschooling parent.

And, statistically, homeschooled kids tend to outperform kids educated in public schools and even sometimes private schools.  So, homeschooling parents must be doing something right.
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Crystal

Re: Converting serious lit into big business
« Reply #30 on: November 15, 2023, 04:51:24 AM »
We had a big discussion at a romance writing workshop years ago about why people whose writing is technically pretty bad nevertheless were bestselling authors. We concluded it was their pacing. I think that's definitely true of Dan Brown, for instance. Readers want to know "what happens next?" and plow through some very basic storytelling to find out. Add some interesting plot devices, and there you are. I also observed that writers of that ilk are very light on character depth and thus on emotion. It's not that their characters don't love and suffer, but somehow, the reader is a step away from them as it happens; genre novels bring readers in very close.

I think that is true for Dan Brown, but I've read a large number of books that sold very well and moved very slowly. This is especially true in romance where a lot of books have a very slice of life / hang out vibe.

For example, I enjoy Emily Henry books overall, but I would certainly not call them quickly paced. I'm really struggling to get through People You Meet on Vacation atm.

This is true with thrillers too. A lot of thrillers are 80% creepy vibes, no action, with all the action happening in the last 20%. But I will fully cop to not "getting" a lot of thrillers.

(But perhaps you are talking about the absolute .1% bestsellers, not genre bestsellers. In that case, I do think they tend to be quick).

The difference is that we're all forced to read lit-fic in school.  If we have negative feelings towards it, then those feelings have been earned the hard way.  If high schools regularly assigned Tom Clancy or Dan Brown or E.L. James, then the lit-fic crowd's negative opinions of genre fiction would be similarly justified, but that's not the case at present.

These days, in literature classes, teachers use more short passages than novels. This is not teachers' incompetence but a result of the increased importance of standardized testing in setting school funding.

My sister, who did not read at all growing up, is a teacher now. She taught middle school English for awhile and she assigned the middle school fav The Outsiders along with the modern bestseller The Hunger Games. I am sure many would not consider The Hunger Games quality literature (those people can eff off FWIW), but students had a really easy time connecting with the material, and it had plenty of thematic weight.

I think a lot of people would criticize this choice not because THG lacks literary merits. (It has plenty & I will die on that hill). But because it's actually an enjoyable read. Now, enjoyable is subjective, but it is also a fast read, which is a bit less subjective. This is true of some classics (1984, for example) and less true of others (Heart of Darkness-- how can such a short book be so long!?!?!).

But... that's dumb. If we consider Shakespeare literature despite the many sex jokes, we should consider thematically rich modern genre fiction worthy of study too.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2023, 04:55:32 AM by Crystal »
 

RiverRun

Re: Converting serious lit into big business
« Reply #31 on: November 15, 2023, 06:01:10 AM »
Well, I am actually homeschooling my kids. Which is why my writing output is so very slow.

Its not a panecaea to all the world's ills, but one big advantage of homeschooling is that I have control over my kids reading list. If they hate a book, I can sometimes drop it and choose an alternative. I also have a lot of control over their technology time.
I've noticed with my kids that they need to detox from screen time. They fidget and complain and whine - then they finally pick up a book and read it. It takes time and quiet to actually think, something we don't always give ourselves.

I often think about the sheer amount of time people used to have simply to think. No tv, radio, magazine, phone.  It was, doubtless, quite boring. But considering the kinds of books they used to write, at least some of that time was well spent.

Back to pacing - I wonder if its really a matter of going fast as it is a matter of being interesting. I was re-reading Harry Potter a couple years ago along with my kids, and I noted that almost every paragraph jumps to some new aspect of the storyline. Sometimes the major plot line is hanging fire for several chapters, but every page has some fresh little problem to solve, or at least a joke. Its rarely dull.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2023, 06:12:14 AM by RiverRun »
 
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RiverRun

Re: Converting serious lit into big business
« Reply #32 on: November 15, 2023, 06:16:03 AM »
When I first read Wuthering Heights as a teenager--which I bought because the Dell paperback cover was pretty and it was a style match for the Dell edition of Jane Eyre--I felt that the writing style was very histrionic and confusing. I did not like the story, although I had some silly fantasies about turning the tragedy into a romantic happy ending. A few years ago, I read it again because it was the choice of my library book club. To my surprise, I had no trouble with the writing style at all. Still hated Cathy and Heathcliff big time, though.

Somehow, after decades of poisoning/starving my brain by reading thousands of simply written genre romances, my ability to read a complex story has matured. I may need to go back to some other classics I disliked and read them again.

As for my own writing, it features people who don't talk in hyperbole. It is my hope that I create characters the readers don't hate.

I was also very underwhelmed by Wuthering Heights.. Tenant of Wildfell Hall by Anne Bronte, on the other hand, became one of my favorites. It does have a good bit of moralizing by modern standards, but much of it is actually connected to the plot. I think its an excellent love story.
 

Bill Hiatt

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Re: Converting serious lit into big business
« Reply #33 on: November 15, 2023, 08:27:26 AM »
Home schooling, which seems to be the model Gatto advocates, can be effective, but it requires parental sophistication, as well as a lot of time and/or money. Very few parents have the breadth of academic background to teach all subjects themselves . . .

When I was in school, I had teachers that seemingly didn't even have a breadth of knowledge in the subjects they were teaching.  There were also teachers that did not stray from what the textbook contained.  Additionally, home schooling is not home colleging.  Most parents already learned in school everything they would need to teach their kids.  Even if they've forgotten things, they can read up on it prior to instructing their kids.  And, if there are things they aren't fully familiar with, they can teach their kids what might be one of the most important things of all: how to look things up and evaluate sources and properly research subjects.

Plus, there are homeschooling parents that form groups so they can help each other, especially in different subjects they may not be as familiar with as another homeschooling parent.

And, statistically, homeschooled kids tend to outperform kids educated in public schools and even sometimes private schools.  So, homeschooling parents must be doing something right.
I had a few teachers that weren't up to par also, though it sounds like not as many as you had. And, given current teacher shortages, it's likely that problem will increase. In contrast to most other jobs, where shortages lead to an attempt to make the job more attractive, in teaching shortages usually lead to lowering the standards required to teach. Speaking of systemic problems, that's one society needs to work on. But in a lot of school districts, teacher quality to still very high. We want to avoid overgeneralization when possible.

While it is true that home schooling is not home colleging, much depends on the goals and abilities of the students involved. If the student's goal is a career that doesn't require college, that's one scenario--and easier, because the home schooling can focus on whatever that goal is. If the student's goal is something that requires college, but the student and parents are both happy with using community college as a steppingstone, then that's a different scenario, because anyone who has the equivalent of a high school diploma can qualify for community college, at least in my state. That means parents don't have to prepare kids to jump through a whole bunch of admissions hoops. But if the goal is to get into a competitive college, that's a scenario that can be really challenging. Because the competition (strong public and private school students) have a range of extracurricular opportunities (sports, performing arts, etc.), as well as advanced academic programs like honors and AP classes. It is possible to replicate some of that extracurricular experience (through club sports, community theater, internships, travel experiences, etc.), but that requires a lot of time and planning on the parent's part. Simulating AP classes requires a much higher academic level on the parent's part, so we're either looking at a lot of time finding other parents who can teach each subject--good luck with that on things like Calculus and Physics--or it requires a lot of money spent on tutoring. It's also more challenging without dedicated spaces. Think about the set-up challenges of turning the kitchen into a chemistry lab, for example, as well as the cleanup time.

Even that scenario is doable, but probably much less so by a single parent working two jobs to make ends meet. That's why it's always tricky drawing conclusions from achievement data unless the data is properly disaggregated. In other words, we need to compare like to like. In looking at the online data available, I notice that the comparisons I could find quickly all look at public school students in general vs. home-schooled students in general. In the process, we're comparing the child of a single mom working two jobs and not really having the option to home-school with the affluent mom or dad who can either stay home or work from home and have a flexible schedule. (Jobs which can be done from home in the first place tend to be higher paying than those that require physical presence, though there are exceptions.) Not all home-school parents are wealthy by any means, but the home-school model presupposes a lot of time and/or money that not everyone has. And parents with a lot of time and/or money tend to produce better educational outcomes for their children regardless of which educational paradigm they use. To have an accurate comparison, you'd need to compare low-income public schoolers to low-income home-schoolers, and the same with middle and high incomes. You'd have to also look at variables like language background, whether or not the child has special needs, etc.

Remember that public schools by their nature tend to have a more diverse population than either private schools or home-schooling environments. That's why disaggregating data is so important. Otherwise, it's possible the result one is seeing is a product of variables besides the educational structure. (We call those confounding variables, and there are a lot of them in education.)

That's not to say that home schooling is bad. I started out my earlier post saying it can be effective. I'm sure RiverRun and many other parents do a great job with it. And if done properly, there can be huge advantages to one-on-one instruction and individualization. But a lot of parents, through no fault of their own, aren't in a position to provide for home schooling as effectively. That's why we also need a robust public school system. Education is not a one-size-fits-all kind of process.   



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RiverRun

Re: Converting serious lit into big business
« Reply #34 on: November 15, 2023, 11:42:18 AM »
This is well and truly off topic but this got me thinking about John Taylor Gatto because I read some of his stuff years ago. I think his objection to public school as an institution was partly because he was convinced that segmenting subjects into set periods implied to the students that subjects were isolated and valueless. As in, the bell rang. English is over. We can forget all about it now, therefore it never really mattered. Of course a good teacher works contrary to this, but Gatto believed the institution fostered this. He builds up this argument for quite a while and I'd fail if I tried to summarize it all. But as I recall he was strongly against predigested information like textbooks, and opinionless lectures. He thought kids should spend their time on real books, strong opinions, and see ideas operating in the real world, by pursuing their interests. My own educational theories have developed along different lines. I use a lot of text books myself so I am far from following his suggestions, but he had some thought provoking observations that have stayed with me.
 

Jeff Tanyard

Re: Converting serious lit into big business
« Reply #35 on: November 15, 2023, 07:13:34 PM »
I am sure many would not consider The Hunger Games quality literature (those people can eff off FWIW), but students had a really easy time connecting with the material, and it had plenty of thematic weight.

I think a lot of people would criticize this choice not because THG lacks literary merits. (It has plenty & I will die on that hill). But because it's actually an enjoyable read.


I've never read The Hunger Games, so I can't really comment on it.  If it's actually an enjoyable read, though, as you say, then that's all the "literary merit" it needs as far as I'm concerned.   :shrug  Anything else is a bonus.

In my opinion, any enjoyable book can be discussed thematically and in an intelligent and sophisticated fashion.  Just ask readers why they like it and go from there.  The people discussing the book might actually surprise themselves.
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Hopscotch

Re: Converting serious lit into big business
« Reply #36 on: November 15, 2023, 11:38:35 PM »
If it's actually an enjoyable read...then that's all the "literary merit" it needs as far as I'm concerned.

Sort of.  True, there’s a read out there for everybody and an everybody for a read.  But merit is something else - merit lies in a book worth your re-reading and that means keeping across a lifetime to read whenever the story calls to you.  A magic beyond an enjoyable read.  Written by indie magicians, of course.
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Bill Hiatt

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Re: Converting serious lit into big business
« Reply #37 on: November 16, 2023, 12:26:17 AM »
This is well and truly off topic but this got me thinking about John Taylor Gatto because I read some of his stuff years ago. I think his objection to public school as an institution was partly because he was convinced that segmenting subjects into set periods implied to the students that subjects were isolated and valueless. As in, the bell rang. English is over. We can forget all about it now, therefore it never really mattered. Of course a good teacher works contrary to this, but Gatto believed the institution fostered this. He builds up this argument for quite a while and I'd fail if I tried to summarize it all. But as I recall he was strongly against predigested information like textbooks, and opinionless lectures. He thought kids should spend their time on real books, strong opinions, and see ideas operating in the real world, by pursuing their interests. My own educational theories have developed along different lines. I use a lot of text books myself so I am far from following his suggestions, but he had some thought provoking observations that have stayed with me.
There are a lot of interesting theories in education. Personally, I'm eclectic, taking pieces from a number of different thinkers.

The segmentation of knowledge Gatto talks about could indeed be a problem. That's why there is so much emphasis on initiatives like writing across the curriculum and other interdisciplinary approaches. I've been involved in interdisciplinary, team-taught courses as both a student and a teacher. The academy approach, which involves grouping students based on interest in career pathways and integrating courses accordingly, while still in its infancy, shows promise. In my last year before retirement, I was the AP Language and Comp provider for the medical science academy, which meant pulling in more scientifically oriented non-fiction, among other things. The high school form which I graduated has a performing arts academy, tied to a couple of studios with local campuses.


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Bill Hiatt

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Re: Converting serious lit into big business
« Reply #38 on: November 16, 2023, 12:34:53 AM »
If it's actually an enjoyable read...then that's all the "literary merit" it needs as far as I'm concerned.

Sort of.  True, there’s a read out there for everybody and an everybody for a read.  But merit is something else - merit lies in a book worth your re-reading and that means keeping across a lifetime to read whenever the story calls to you.  A magic beyond an enjoyable read.  Written by indie magicians, of course.
For pleasure reading, we all look for an enjoyable read. To exercise our minds, we might want more than just enjoyment. But, as others have pointed out in this thread, it's quite possible to combine both. Traditional lit-fic is not the only place to find intellectual stimulation.

Shakespeare was a crowd pleaser, but at court and for the groundlings. Charles Dickens was a crowd pleaser. Mark Twain was a crowd pleaser. There are a lot of examples, and at least some of those people wouldn't still be remembered if they hadn't entertained large audiences. It's only recently that the academic world has started venerating writers who never had a popular following. Even some of them actually have some enjoyable works.


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Hopscotch

Re: Converting serious lit into big business
« Reply #39 on: November 16, 2023, 02:20:02 AM »
It's only recently that the academic world has started venerating writers who never had a popular following.

Rather think that the academic world venerates writers who appeal to the academic world academically.  But they shouldn't shove that stuff on us.  Unless it's James Joyce's Ulysses - the greatest comic novel in English which, w/all its randomized complexities, Joyce said would keep the lit-acad busy for centuries and has so far.  Making the novel even funnier for the rest of us.
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Post-Crisis D

Re: Converting serious lit into big business
« Reply #40 on: November 16, 2023, 02:48:46 AM »
When I was in school, the segmentation of history was certainly a problem, though I didn't realize it at the time.  You ended up with a disjointed view of history.  That is, you didn't always get an understanding that certain events were occurring simultaneously.

For example, you got the impression that woolly mammoths died out long before man formed civilizations.  It was cave men, grunting and groaning, wearing loin clothes hunting woolly mammoths with pointed sticks, right?  And woolly mammoths were long gone before we started using language and building homes outside of caves.  But, woolly mammoths were still around when the pyramids in Egypt were being built.

Others: Galileo and Isaac Newton seemed like they were ages apart, but they were both born in the same year.  The first vaccine was tested in Napoleon's time.  When beer was invented, the Sahara wasn't a desert yet.  When the crossbow was first used in Europe, the Chinese were already using guns.

William Shakespeare was still alive when the British were starting colonies in America.  Leonardo da Vinci and Christopher Columbus were contemporaries.  Also, the last vestige of the Roman Empire fell less than fifty years before Columbus reached America.  Mozart was composing music when Americans were declaring independence.  The Wild West in America took place during the latter part of the Victorian era in England.

You probably never realized that in school.
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hungryboson

Re: Converting serious lit into big business
« Reply #41 on: November 16, 2023, 05:35:28 AM »
D,
Galileo Galilei died the same year Isaac Newton was born (1642)
 
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Post-Crisis D

Re: Converting serious lit into big business
« Reply #42 on: November 16, 2023, 06:12:12 AM »
Galileo Galilei died the same year Isaac Newton was born (1642)

The Internet lied to me on that one because a site had them listed as being both born in 1642.  They were on a list with others like Marilyn Monroe and Queen Elizabeth II who were born the same year (1926).
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Re: Converting serious lit into big business
« Reply #43 on: November 16, 2023, 06:59:54 AM »
When I was in school, the segmentation of history was certainly a problem, though I didn't realize it at the time.  You ended up with a disjointed view of history.  That is, you didn't always get an understanding that certain events were occurring simultaneously.

For example, you got the impression that woolly mammoths died out long before man formed civilizations.  It was cave men, grunting and groaning, wearing loin clothes hunting woolly mammoths with pointed sticks, right?  And woolly mammoths were long gone before we started using language and building homes outside of caves.  But, woolly mammoths were still around when the pyramids in Egypt were being built.

Others: Galileo and Isaac Newton seemed like they were ages apart, but they were both born in the same year.  The first vaccine was tested in Napoleon's time.  When beer was invented, the Sahara wasn't a desert yet.  When the crossbow was first used in Europe, the Chinese were already using guns.

William Shakespeare was still alive when the British were starting colonies in America.  Leonardo da Vinci and Christopher Columbus were contemporaries.  Also, the last vestige of the Roman Empire fell less than fifty years before Columbus reached America.  Mozart was composing music when Americans were declaring independence.  The Wild West in America took place during the latter part of the Victorian era in England.

You probably never realized that in school.
Segmentation is a problem. On the other hand, it's difficult to academically connect everything to everything else in the way in the way in which they actually relate.

That said, I did know some of those things. Shakespeare's Tempest makes references to colonization (and some see Caliban as a comment on indigenous peoples, though of course not a very modern one).

But this is why we need to be lifelong learners. There's no possible way in which any one history course, no matter how it was organized, could possibly convey the full reality. One picks up more and more aspects of the full picture over time.


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LilyBLily

Re: Converting serious lit into big business
« Reply #44 on: November 16, 2023, 11:17:15 AM »
When I was a girl, my mom bought me a book called The World of Captain John Smith, by Genevieve Foster. It gave basic information about all the major notables and events of the same era from around the globe. She did a series of similar books. No segmentation there. From a review of one:

Foster earned her reputation by her masterful display of "horizontal history"—telling the story of world events in the geo-political sphere, while giving as much importance to advances in science, medicine, music, literature, and exploration.
 

Jeff Tanyard

Re: Converting serious lit into big business
« Reply #45 on: November 16, 2023, 07:03:26 PM »
William Shakespeare was still alive when the British were starting colonies in America.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_Venture


Quote
The Wild West in America took place during the latter part of the Victorian era in England.


Bram Stoker's Dracula is actually a cool mashup of both cultures.  If you want to kill an aristocratic vampire in Victorian England, then what better way than with your American cowboy friend with his Bowie knife and some Winchester rifles for the whole hero team?   :cool:
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Vijaya

Re: Converting serious lit into big business
« Reply #46 on: November 17, 2023, 01:31:18 AM »
LilyBily, I've never heard that term, horizontal history, until now. Love it. Will have to check out Foster's books. Thank you.


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Re: Converting serious lit into big business
« Reply #47 on: November 17, 2023, 01:39:53 AM »
Ah, mashups! Consider The League of Extraordinary Gentleman, a modern mashup of a huge number of literary works. Too bad it was chronologically incoherent. It had a female vampire, Mina Harker, who got infected trying to destroy Dracula, Mr. Hyde, the invisible man, Dorian Gray, Alan Quartermain, Captain Nemo, and Professor Moriarty as the villain, who is trying to start a World War (somewhat earlier than World War I) and plans to pick up the pieces afterward by creating armies of vampires, invisible men, and Mr. Hydes. It was inspired by a graphic novel and in turn produced a text novel adaptation.

While there are some chronological problems with that particular roster of heroes, the biggest comes from Secret Service Agent Tom Sawyer, who is portrayed as young but would have to have been pushing sixty at the time the story takes place.

But fans of that kind of everything-but-the-kitchen-sink approach are unlikely to be that concerned about Tom Sawyer's surprising youthfulness. Though I suppose if they had been, it would have been easy enough to write in the fountain of youth!

 


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Re: Converting serious lit into big business
« Reply #48 on: November 17, 2023, 01:42:04 AM »
When I was a girl, my mom bought me a book called The World of Captain John Smith, by Genevieve Foster. It gave basic information about all the major notables and events of the same era from around the globe. She did a series of similar books. No segmentation there. From a review of one:

Foster earned her reputation by her masterful display of "horizontal history"—telling the story of world events in the geo-political sphere, while giving as much importance to advances in science, medicine, music, literature, and exploration.
That's a good example. There are actually a lot of historians who take that approach now. It's fascinating for students of history.


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Re: Converting serious lit into big business
« Reply #49 on: November 20, 2023, 03:44:05 PM »

And, statistically, homeschooled kids tend to outperform kids educated in public schools and even sometimes private schools.  So, homeschooling parents must be doing something right.

They're apparently doing a lot right. Hiatt's point about parsing data has some validity and the base selection bias of home schoolers being generally more invested in the value of education is noteworthy; nonetheless, the performance disparities (on average) between public and home schooled are impressive and persist (in a a number of analyses) when demographic and socioeconomic disparities are considered. (I was not home schooled btw.)
Average SAT scores for the home schooled has consistently been nearly 100 pts higher than public schooled going back to at least 1999 per a Dept of Education study, and the gap has been gradually increasing (84pt diff in initial report).
They also outscore on the ACT test.
According to Scripps, home schooled are overrepresented by roughly 5x among spelling bee finalists, a disparity that's persisted since at least 2001.
An analysis pub'd in the Journal of College Admission concluded homeschoolers earn higher first-year and fourth-year GPAs in college even when controlling for demographics and other factors.
Home schooled college graduation rates are nearly 10% higher than public schooled (66.7% vs 57.5% for 2022 roughly reflecting the norm for the last couple decades)

A great deal of the performance difference is probably due to home schooling being more focused on actual education (rather than subverting with ideology) than public schools. And, of course, not having to cater to the lowest common denominator in the curricula.
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cecilia_writer

Re: Converting serious lit into big business
« Reply #50 on: November 20, 2023, 08:03:16 PM »
What an interesting and wide-ranging discussion this has turned into. Sorry to be jumping in when it's progressed so far already. I just wanted to say something about home-schooling/hone education. I'm always interested to hear people's experience of it. I had to take one of my sons out of school when he was about 12 because he became so anxious about going that it was more or less a phobia, although in fact he didn't see it as a phobia but as a reasonable reaction to an impossible situation. The school authorities were unable to offer any solution so we were on our own.
Anyway, once we got past these initial stages of panic and disbelief, we just got on with it. I am not sure how feasible it would have been if he had been interested in science or engineering or anything practical, but he had always been a voracious reader (and still is) and interested in a kind of philosophical approach to things, i.e. he thinks a lot!. We took part in some group events, including a holiday, with a home education organisation, we wrote plays together for a youth drama group and he also acted in them, and in his later teens he took some exams at a local college. He was writing all the time too. He then went to university and graduated with 1st class honours in English, published a book, won some short film competitions with a group of friends, and now works in communications.
Although I happened to be a qualified history teacher, in this role I was more of a facilitator, searching out places we could visit, books to use, etc. He had to teach himself for a lot of the time as I was the sole earner in the family for some years and had to go to work. He is still quite an anxious person in certain situations but he has good friends and gets on well at work.
In some cases I suggested books for him to read (at last she gets to the point!) and in others he found them himself. I remember him doing a project on the works of Orwell for one of his exams, for instance, though generally he liked fantasy and grew up waiting for the next Harry Potter book. He and some friends run a book club now and I'm always surprised by their random choices of reading.
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Hopscotch

Re: Converting serious lit into big business
« Reply #51 on: November 21, 2023, 12:02:49 AM »
What Cecilia accomplished is fabulous, and I'm no way a home schooling advocate.  Cheers to her and her son!  :clap:
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Bill Hiatt

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Re: Converting serious lit into big business
« Reply #52 on: November 21, 2023, 12:43:02 AM »
Yes, Cecilia sounds exactly like the kind of parent who could make home schooling work well.

Her son's inclinations and goals also seem well-suited. If you want to be in a creative field, and your home-schooling parent is already in such a field, that's a really good fit.

It's also good to be aware that there are home schooling organizations out there that can be really helpful, particularly with group activities and socialization.


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Vijaya

Re: Converting serious lit into big business
« Reply #53 on: November 21, 2023, 01:22:19 AM »
Cecilia, hats off to you and your son! We had friends in CA who started homeschooling due to the violence in schools. This was back in the 80s when there weren't very many resources for homeschooling parents and they had very little support. Their kids thrived. Now I know many who homeschool and our parish has a homeschool co-op and it's been beautiful to see how well the kids are growing both in academics, not just in the humanities either, and in virtue. It brings to mind the truth that parents are really and truly the first educators and they need to remain so. Even when a child is in school, the parents need to be involved. I was always grateful that for us (even in my childhood), school was an extension of the home with the same values.


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cecilia_writer

Re: Converting serious lit into big business
« Reply #54 on: November 21, 2023, 04:17:05 AM »
Thanks for these lovely comments. I am not generally an advocate of home schooling, and my son himself used to speculate about the education system and thought a network of smaller schools closer to home might work better tban the fewer, larger schools we have here..Of course then you get into the argument about economies of scale, ranges of subjects offered etc, though I suppose with online learning these might not loom so large. Certainly there must have been other schools where he might have settled down, but in Edinburgh it can be very hard to get into a school outside your designated area, particularly if it's a good / popular one. For balance I should say that my older son went right through the official school system and did at least as well as his brother though in a different field (he works in high performance computing in a university).
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Jeff Tanyard

Re: Converting serious lit into big business
« Reply #55 on: November 21, 2023, 06:33:08 AM »
What an interesting and wide-ranging discussion this has turned into. Sorry to be jumping in when it's progressed so far already. I just wanted to say something about home-schooling/hone education. I'm always interested to hear people's experience of it. I had to take one of my sons out of school when he was about 12 because he became so anxious about going that it was more or less a phobia, although in fact he didn't see it as a phobia but as a reasonable reaction to an impossible situation. The school authorities were unable to offer any solution so we were on our own.
Anyway, once we got past these initial stages of panic and disbelief, we just got on with it. I am not sure how feasible it would have been if he had been interested in science or engineering or anything practical, but he had always been a voracious reader (and still is) and interested in a kind of philosophical approach to things, i.e. he thinks a lot!. We took part in some group events, including a holiday, with a home education organisation, we wrote plays together for a youth drama group and he also acted in them, and in his later teens he took some exams at a local college. He was writing all the time too. He then went to university and graduated with 1st class honours in English, published a book, won some short film competitions with a group of friends, and now works in communications.
Although I happened to be a qualified history teacher, in this role I was more of a facilitator, searching out places we could visit, books to use, etc. He had to teach himself for a lot of the time as I was the sole earner in the family for some years and had to go to work. He is still quite an anxious person in certain situations but he has good friends and gets on well at work.
In some cases I suggested books for him to read (at last she gets to the point!) and in others he found them himself. I remember him doing a project on the works of Orwell for one of his exams, for instance, though generally he liked fantasy and grew up waiting for the next Harry Potter book. He and some friends run a book club now and I'm always surprised by their random choices of reading.


That's a nice success story, Cecilia.   :cheers
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Lorri Moulton

Re: Converting serious lit into big business
« Reply #56 on: November 21, 2023, 10:36:47 AM »
I had a professor who taught European history from the French Revolution to WWI.  The first day of class, he said we only had to remember 5 dates (and only the YEARS). 

1789, 1815, 1848, 1870, and 1914. 

And we'd better know in what section of that timeline events occurred.  It was a great class! 

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cecilia_writer

Re: Converting serious lit into big business
« Reply #57 on: November 21, 2023, 06:45:23 PM »
I had a professor who taught European history from the French Revolution to WWI.  The first day of class, he said we only had to remember 5 dates (and only the YEARS). 

1789, 1815, 1848, 1870, and 1914. 

And we'd better know in what section of that timeline events occurred.  It was a great class!

Excellent! As a history graduate this is my favourite era and I like his choice of dates.
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Bill Hiatt

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Re: Converting serious lit into big business
« Reply #58 on: November 22, 2023, 01:15:33 AM »
Quote
my son himself used to speculate about the education system and thought a network of smaller schools closer to home might work better than the fewer, larger schools we have here. Of course then you get into the argument about economies of scale, ranges of subjects offered etc, though I suppose with online learning these might not loom so large.
Ah, yes, practical constraints often limit what the best approach would be.

My former school district was relatively small (four K-8 schools and one high school). The 6-8 parts were fundamentally separate middle schools existing on the same campuses as elementary schools. In the very old days, when the district had loads of cash, it could make four small middle schools work with complete programs. As money became more scarce, it became harder and harder to do that. A few years back, the district created one middle school because it just couldn't offer complete programs any more. There was some discussion of making the middle schools magnets for different subject areas, but that proved to be too complicated to set up. (And kids that age often changed their mind about what they wanted to focus on, a potentially even bigger problem.)

I've seen the same problem when large schools suffer declining enrollment. The smaller the student population, the more tendency there is to lose programs because not enough of the remaining students are interested, and the more difficult it is to schedule students. (Classes that used to be offered every period no longer are, and more classes are offered only once, forcing a lot of tough choices.)

With regard to online classes, they are a good supplement, but I've yet to see an online program that provides everything in-person schooling can. The personal touch really makes a difference, especially for struggling students.


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