Story length

[APP]

How long should your book be? Just long enough to tell your story. Word count should be--to a degree--a secondary concern.

This blog article sums it up:
https://writerunboxed.com/2022/07/19/how-long-should-your-book-be/

[Hopscotch]

I agree BUT.  F. Scott Fitzgerald said, Don't write less than 60k b/c no one will buy shorter.  He knew a thing or two about sales.  Now Lee Child's Reacher novels - take out all the unnecessary description and set-decorating and his 130k average shrinks to about 60k.

[TimothyEllis]

F. Scott Fitzgerald said, Don't write less than 60k b/c no one will buy shorter.

Maybe in his genre.

But it isn't true in urban fantasy. I just proved that with a 27k book at 3.99.

[Post-Crisis D]

I agree BUT.  F. Scott Fitzgerald said, Don't write less than 60k b/c no one will buy shorter.  He knew a thing or two about sales.

He's also been dead for almost 82 years.

[TimothyEllis]

I agree BUT.  F. Scott Fitzgerald said, Don't write less than 60k b/c no one will buy shorter.  He knew a thing or two about sales.

He's also been dead for almost 82 years.

 

[writeway]

I agree BUT.  F. Scott Fitzgerald said, Don't write less than 60k b/c no one will buy shorter.  He knew a thing or two about sales.

He's also been dead for almost 82 years.

Yeah, really. Who gives a crap what someone who has been dead for 8 decades thinks about writing when it has NO relevance today. Of course, he said what he said. They probably all thought like he did... back then. Has nothing to do with writers today. Heck, he came from a time where many thought women shouldn't be writing books, so no. Most people don't even remember F. Scott let alone follow whatever he said. I was supposed to read The Great Gatsby in school and it was so damn boring I couldn't get past the first chapter so I'm good on ignoring F. Scott's opinion. Let's be real. Some of the "classics" from back in the day wouldn't survive the modern-day readers (especially not that boring Great Gatsby) and they break every rule you're told not to do concerning good writing.  His advice or "opinion" has nothing to do with writing today. He was dead before my parents were born!

As for short books, hell yeah they sell. I used to write novels. I write only novellas and shorts now and make better money than I ever have before. The reason I switched is that I enjoy writing shorter works. They allow me to get work out faster and my income is much better. Also, many readers no longer have time to sit at home and read an 80k word novel anymore. They just don't. This is 2022. Many people are busy, especially women who are the majority of readers. Between working and everything else people do, most just don't have the time to dedicate to a big huge book anymore. Also, when F. Scott was living, reading and going out drinking was about the only entertainment they had. Writers of today have to compete with a lot of other stuff like sports (which wasn't nearly as popular then as it is now), TV, streaming, the Internet, clubbing, vacations, spending time with family, etc. So some people's time and patience with a book are limited. I'm betting the ones who read nothing but long books are not as busy. Many seem to be older, retired, etc. But for everyone else, it's harder to sit down to a big book. I stopped reading longer books myself for that reason. I want something I can read in one sitting and not have to keep coming back to until it's finished. Also, shorts are also good to read during commutes or on lunch breaks at work or when you are in the doctor's office, etc.

But no, I don't care what some dude who has been dead longer than most of us have been alive has to say about publishing or writing. I am sure he'd be looking down on publishing ebooks too or anything else we're doing today.

And uh, I can name more than one great author who made a living and became a legend writing short stories... Edgar Allan Poe. Who if you ask me could write rings around F. Scott Fitzgerald and his work is still relevant today. But I guess by F. Scott's standards, Poe was a hack? 

[writeway]

How long should your book be? Just long enough to tell your story. Word count should be--to a degree--a secondary concern.

This blog article sums it up:
https://writerunboxed.com/2022/07/19/how-long-should-your-book-be/

A writer's book should be as long as they think it should be to complete a satisfying story.

[Post-Crisis D]

Are we sure that's an actual F. Scott Fitzgerald quote?  Because it looks like all but one of his novels were under 50k and the one that was longer, Tender is the Night (68k), was not one of his best selling or reviewed novels.

[alhawke]

I try to write shorter and shorter books. Smaller novels are cheaper when considering word count editing costs and printing costs for paperbacks (if you hire an editor and create paperbacks).

For me, 50-60k is a sweet spot. But I agree that you write as much as you need for a story. My current project is ballooning to >70k and I'll eat the extra costs to complete it. All my books used to range 70-80k.

Before I was more entrenched in the writing biz, it seemed that most my favorite older classics were what we'd now consider novellas in the 200 page range. 

[Jeff Tanyard]

I agree BUT.  F. Scott Fitzgerald said, Don't write less than 60k b/c no one will buy shorter.  He knew a thing or two about sales.

He's also been dead for almost 82 years.

That's the real secret to book-selling success: be a famous dead guy.   

[LilyBLily]

Hey, no need to knock Fitzgerald. I've never been a fan of Gatsby, but old F. Scott did have a way with words.

People today think 40k is a novel. Maybe it is. In some genres, well over 100k is expected. And anything in between.
 
Not everybody is in a hurry. Some readers like to luxuriate in the world of a novel and read it over multiple days. I've been doing that myself lately.

[alhawke]

I've been wondering about KU; for you KU folks, is it better to have a bigger book for more potential KU reads?

[TimothyEllis]

For me, 50-60k is a sweet spot.

My aim is 60k. I usually go a bit over, but rarely hit 65k these days.

But I also rarely release beyond 6 weeks from the previous book, so fans are getting their next fix in timely fashion.

I've been wondering about KU; for you KU folks, is it better to have a bigger book for more potential KU reads?

Size does not matter in KU.

Not bouncing people out is what matters.

If the reader stays the distance, it doesn't matter if the story is 1 long doorstop, or a trilogy. They'll read the whole thing anyway.

No-one cares if a series of 9 books is the same wordage as a trilogy. They'll read the trilogy, or the 9 books, however it's presented.

I stopped hanging out in LitRPG circles partly because of the long book mentality, and a refusal to grasp reality.

My fans don't really care how long each book is, as long as they keep coming in timely fashion.

I still get gripes that they're too short, but as one of my fans posts the day after every release - "NEXT!". And that's even for the long ones. The too short comment is mainly because no matter what speed they read at, they have to wait another 5-6 weeks for the next installment.

[Hopscotch]

Love all the high and low comedy on this thread .  But what about this item - could it be the end of the human genre writer (just set the word count and press Go)?:

The Verge: How independent writers are turning to AI.
https://www.theverge.com/c/23194235/ai-fiction-writing-amazon-kindle-sudowrite-jasper

“Gradually, [she] figured out how to steer the AI. She likened the process to divination. She had to edit and revise its output. But, even then, she found that it lightened the load...The words came easier. When she started using the program, she had told herself she wouldn’t use anything it provided unedited. But she got more comfortable with the idea as she went along."

[PJ Post]

This is how the publishing world has categorized word counts for at least the last fifty years, regardless of genre:

Novel - 40,000 words or over
Novella - 17,500 to 39,999 words
Novelette - 7,500 to 17,499 words
Short story - up to 7,500 words

And more recently, Flash Fiction which is 1k and under.

___

Word count vs price vs frequency vs distribution channel is a completely different conversation, one based mostly around branding strategies. From a business perspective, targeting a precise word count is as viable a production model as any other, regardless of how long the story is or isn't.

[PJ Post]

Won't readers get irritated if they buy what they think is a novel and get a novella?

Generally speaking, it shouldn't be much of a problem if your branding is good.

[Cobbah]

People have attention spans. Some have long ones, others, not so long. Some are goldfish. Some people read fast, others slow. Some skim and others don't remember the last four pages.

Generally, people want to be entertained for the length of their journey or the period in which they read; which might be an evening or a whole weekend. This holds true regardless of genre. There's no set book-length, only the book's length is important. Nobody likes filler, but non-stop action throughout the book without pause is also wearing.

Nobody complains if they get two journeys out of it, or two nights, or a week-long read. They all complain when it falls short of their desired timetable. There's nothing worse than sitting down for an evening's read, only to finish at nine o'clock and be lost for something to do for several hours.

Write what it takes to do the job well and your readers won't give a monkey's if it's longer than genre expectations. But, regardless of branding if you're expecting a novel and you get a novella you will be pissed.

[Jeff Tanyard]

Won't readers get irritated if they buy what they think is a novel and get a novella?

I certainly would.  Readers generally get irritated by any sort of bait and switch, regardless of whether it's about word count or genre or whatever.  People don't like feeling swindled.  I'm a big fan of short-form science fiction, but if I think I'm buying a novel, it had better be a novel.

[Post-Crisis D]

Won't readers get irritated if they buy what they think is a novel and get a novella?

I certainly would.  Readers generally get irritated by any sort of bait and switch, regardless of whether it's about word count or genre or whatever.  People don't like feeling swindled.  I'm a big fan of short-form science fiction, but if I think I'm buying a novel, it had better be a novel.

That's why I think word count is a better measuring stick then a label or page count.  The industry may consider a book of 40k words or longer as a novel, but there are people that won't accept anything shorter than 80k-100k as being a novel.  And then there are classic books that are considered novels but fall into the 20k-30k range.  And, with page count, if you go by print page count, that's going to vary both by font size and font selection.

The only real good measure is word count.  If the ePub format would let you tag actual book content separately from bonus material, then word count could be even more accurate because stores/software could tell you the word count in content designated as "book content".  That would allow authors to include more bonus material in their eBooks and readers knowing it's bonus material and not stuff thrown in to pad the page count as some authors have done in the past.

[PJ Post]

But, regardless of branding if you're expecting a novel and you get a novella you will be pissed.

If the branding is done well, this won't be a problem. They'll know if it's a novella or novelette, short novel or epic, stand alone, a part of a series, serial, whatever. The most important objective of branding is to communicate a base line of expectations that the reader can consistently rely upon. They won't follow us down the rabbit hole unless they trust us, which, of course, is why everything right up through page 1 is so incredibly important.

[Cobbah]

But, regardless of branding if you're expecting a novel and you get a novella you will be pissed.

If the branding is done well, this won't be a problem. They'll know if it's a novella or novelette, short novel or epic, stand alone, a part of a series, serial, whatever. The most important objective of branding is to communicate a base line of expectations that the reader can consistently rely upon. They won't follow us down the rabbit hole unless they trust us, which, of course, is why everything right up through page 1 is so incredibly important.

Interesting viewpoint!

If your readers are expecting short stories, then yes I'm sure it works. My point you quoted above was for many, like me, if I'm downloading books and there's no obvious indicator that it's only a short read, I would be annoyed to then find it was. A good example was when I went to look more closely at yours a year, or so ago and only by chance noticed the book-length just prior to pressing the 'buy' button. There was no difference in the description or cover to indicate a short read. I now take the time to scroll down below the fold to check the book length every time, unless it's an author I know.

[TimothyEllis]

If your readers are expecting short stories, then yes I'm sure it works. My point you quoted above was for many, like me, if I'm downloading books and there's no obvious indicator that it's only a short read, I would be annoyed to then find it was. A good example was when I went to look more closely at yours a year, or so ago and only by chance noticed the book-length just prior to pressing the 'buy' button. There was no difference in the description or cover to indicate a short read. I now take the time to scroll down below the fold to check the book length every time, unless it's an author I know.

The number of pages is there for a reason.

If you ignore it, then of course you can be surprised by the length.

But not checking it is on you, not the author.

Why do we need to put something on the cover or in the blurb to indicate length when there is a perfectly good number of pages sitting there in plain view?

And what scroll down? The pages is clearly visible without touching anything.

[Cobbah]

And what scroll down? The pages is clearly visible without touching anything.

Not on all computers, laptops, tablets, or phones. Assuming something is always visible to everyone is a common mistake. Anyway, this is simply a non-confrontational situation. I was attempting to clarify a perfectly acceptable response if someone picked up a short read expecting a long one. I did so by example. 

[PJ Post]

But, regardless of branding if you're expecting a novel and you get a novella you will be pissed.

If the branding is done well, this won't be a problem. They'll know if it's a novella or novelette, short novel or epic, stand alone, a part of a series, serial, whatever. The most important objective of branding is to communicate a base line of expectations that the reader can consistently rely upon. They won't follow us down the rabbit hole unless they trust us, which, of course, is why everything right up through page 1 is so incredibly important.

Interesting viewpoint!

If your readers are expecting short stories, then yes I'm sure it works. My point you quoted above was for many, like me, if I'm downloading books and there's no obvious indicator that it's only a short read, I would be annoyed to then find it was. A good example was when I went to look more closely at yours a year, or so ago and only by chance noticed the book-length just prior to pressing the 'buy' button. There was no difference in the description or cover to indicate a short read. I now take the time to scroll down below the fold to check the book length every time, unless it's an author I know.

I understand what you're saying and it's an ongoing concern for publishers, especially for those of us who like writing serialized fiction because, while we want to clearly communicate what the book is, we don't want to alienate anyone either. Since you brought them up, we can use my books as an example - even though my branding still needs a lot of work.

1) To begin with, they are, in fact, novels, not short reads.
2) The genre is clearly indicated in the blurb as YA, which trends shorter.
3) I also tag them as a serialized story, complete with reading order. Serialized fiction also trends shorter.
4) The blurb indicates a tight, character-centric story, rather than a tale of sweeping plot. Character stories also tend to be shorter.
5) Lastly, I rely on some measure of intertextualization, that is, readers of my genre will take the above information and unconsciously make inferences based upon all of the other YA post-apocalyptic stories they've read.

Taken together, the average reader will assume this is a shorter novel rather than a longer one.

6) And this only applies to Book 1, once they're in, they know what to expect moving forward.

7) Also, Tim is right, most platforms provide a page count, and then we also have reviews, as well, to fill in the blanks, which is still part of our branding.

And then...

Write what it takes to do the job well and your readers won't give a monkey's...*snip*

If, in addition to all of the above, we deliver a reasonably consistent and satisfying experience that our audience can rely upon, the average reader (our fans) will be happy about the whole thing and the individual book length won't be an issue. And by no means am I saying that I have succeeded on this point - all I can do is put the work in and try.

[cecilia_writer]

I like to mention the shortness in the title or right at the top of the blurb for things that are less than the reasonable length for a novel, although even so some readers will not notice it.

[TimothyEllis]

I like to mention the shortness in the title or right at the top of the blurb for things that are less than the reasonable length for a novel, although even so some readers will not notice it.

I just price less.

No-one complained when my 12k stories were priced at 2.99, and my 27k recent was 3.99. My standard is 4.99.

The last one was actually reduced in price on the pre-order, but a lot of people probably didn't even notice that.

[She-la-te-da]

@writeway, may I ask what genre you write? I've been told the last twelve years that I have to write at least 80K, in series, that shorter is a waste, that stand alone books are a waste. I do mainly SF, some horror, at least on my main pen name.

I really like to write shorter, because adding most stuff if just filler. I hate reading filler myself, too. To me, a good length for a novel is 50K. :D

[TimothyEllis]

@writeway, may I ask what genre you write? I've been told the last twelve years that I have to write at least 80K, in series, that shorter is a waste, that stand alone books are a waste. I do mainly SF, some horror, at least on my main pen name.

I really like to write shorter, because adding most stuff if just filler. I hate reading filler myself, too. To me, a good length for a novel is 50K. :D

If you don't mind another answer, I write SF/Fantasy which crosses the genres, and I've come back from an average of 85k to 65k.

50k is too short. But 65k seems to be the spot.

But I also write serial long series, so each book gets followed by more in an expected 4-6 week cycle.

The thing is, if you have the fan base, and they accept 50k and how often you release, then write that.

[cecilia_writer]

The books in all my mystery series come out naturally at around 60-65k, whereas the Regency novels I more or less write for fun sem to extend to about 80k but that's partly because of lengthier dialogue and a little more description.

[PJ Post]

The thing is, if you have the fan base, and they accept 50k and how often you release, then write that.

This.

Write/publish for the fans you want.

[She-la-te-da]

Thanks, Timothy. I get it. I see conflicting advice and it's maddening sometimes. Some people who always said write long and in series are now saying they're making bank with short stories, or at best, novellas. So, which is it? I'm guessing it depends. Like pretty much everything else. :|

I don't have a fan base. The last three or four years have seen nothing from me, due to family circumstances. It's hard to build up anything when you aren't writing, much less publishing. I'm not one of those people who can write when my mind is reeling. Guess it's time for yet another reboot. Sigh.

I think I'm going to do what I always wanted to do and write shorts. I don't really like writing novels, though I can do it. People are saying they're having good results in Vella. Might try that. Anything to get back to writing and publishing. And if necessary, another reboot awaits!

[Lorri Moulton]

I have stories that range from about 7 pages to 185k words and still going.  I write in a lot of different genres, but I think it depends on the story.  I don't want to write or read filler.  If there's more to say...great!  But I just decided NOT to continue a series because there wasn't enough "more" to say.

[TimothyEllis]

Thanks, Timothy. I get it. I see conflicting advice and it's maddening sometimes. Some people who always said write long and in series are now saying they're making bank with short stories, or at best, novellas. So, which is it? I'm guessing it depends. Like pretty much everything else. :|

One thing that changed is the new series facility.

When we had to request adding a book to a series, they had a rule that only novels could be added.

Now when you do it yourself, anything can be added.

What that means is that series of shorts can now have a series slider, which makes them much more visible as a series.

My Old Magic series was originally going to be a series of shorts. But the first book went 50k, much to my surprise. The second one went 27k, and no-one really blinked about it.

If you start a series intending to be shorts, put an author comment on the first book that the series is intended to be shorts.

[The Bass Bagwhan]

I think, first up, it's very genre-specific. YA across all genres is generally shorter and always has been, even in the days of print-only. When it comes to romance in its zillion different formats, all bets are off. Romance readers and the genre are on such an entirely different planet that anything can work. I'm not being disparaging -- only pointing out that romance is a very different genre of its own and the "rules" don't apply in many cases. For one example, the large and utterly voracious readership doesn't exist elsewhere.

Otherwise the OP poses a question that's been asked many, many times before and the consensus of opinion has always been weighed towards that shorter books are a hard sell. You can argue about shorter concentration spans, byte-size engagement, Millenniels commuting, serialising, ... it doesn't matter. As soon as you label a book a "novella" because it's under 40K, you're dooming sales.

Ask yourself, how many short stories or collections of short stories have you bought in the past? Back in the days of premium bricks-and-mortar bookstores, what was the ratio between full-length novels and collections of short stories? It's a mindset, an unconscious block against ... who knows? Value for money? Not getting enagaged in a story you're already aware will be disappointingly short? On the opposite side, fantasy readers love embarking on a 500K door-stopper novel, knowing there are many hours of enjoyment ahead.

By the way, PJ's list of booklengths I'm pretty sure is a Romance list. Last time I checked, about three years ago, God Almighty Bookbub didn't accept anything under 50K as a book. A prolific author I used to edit always made sure his books ticked over the 50K mark to give him that option, and so he could legitimately market them as a "book".

Of course, there's no argument when it comes to audiobooks because that's such a heavily subscription business model, and listeners are not going to "waste" their precious monthly token on a three-hour audiobook when it can also provide a 10-12 hour title. So there's a decision to be made if you're planning to release any audiobook version.

The idea that any story should only be as long as it needs to be is perfectly valid, but that's a question of craft, not marketing. A completely different discussion. If your target readership, and target market, on the whole demands 80-100K novels, no amount of analysing how people consume other forms of entertainment -- podcasts, serials, YouTube -- will change that mindset.

Bottom line: shorter books to an adult readership are a hard sell. I would agree that 65-70K and up to 90K is a sweet spot in the current writing environment.

[PJ Post]

By the way, PJ's list of booklengths I'm pretty sure is a Romance list.

Not Romance - it's from the Nebula and Hugo Awards, so those word count categories go back to at least 1953.

___

Books used to be much shorter, generally speaking, and then came the 80s. Traditional publishing wanted higher prices, which meant higher word counts because their pricing model was based upon their packaging, higher prices required more pages. This strategy peaked in the early 90s. Personally, I stopped reading fantasy specifically because of this bloat - pointless filler needed to fill up all those pages demanded by the marketing department. On the other hand, Moorc-ck's Elric of Melnibone (1972), one of the most influential books in the genre, clocks in at only 48,000 words.

But with digital, there's no 'package' to determine price, no paper mills, no printers and no shipping companies. As a result, word counts have been falling right along with price.

And - in the aggregate - I don't think most readers are nearly as hung up on book length as writers, which is true of most of these sorts of discussions, like cliffhangers for example. Writers, for whatever reason, seem to hate them, but the buying public has absolutely adored them for well over a century.

I think readers care about the experience. They want entertainment - compelling characters and stories - regardless of word counts, be that one massive doorstopper or 4 shorter books.

But for Indies, there's way more earning potential with shorter books in a series.

[TimothyEllis]

One of the things I found is that short stories are a "slice of life". Short stories can be about a short time period in the protagonist's life. And it's really hard to make that interesting.

Most of my shorts come out between a few hours long, and a whole day.

My novels average 1 to 2 weeks.

Big difference as far as world building and character development is concerned.

[cecilia_writer]

You can have hints of something deeper even in a short story. And you can wrap up a quick mystery in 3,000 or so words if it isn't too complex. I've published something recently that includes a novella in chapters and a handful of short stories of varying lengths, and it's doing a bit better than I expected.
(I included the short stories because I'd written some for a short story challenge and others for a Facebook group event, and they were the ones I thought other readers might enjoy).

[PJ Post]

I think readers don't like cliffhangers because it takes the satisfaction and the decision to buy somewhat out of their hands. If you reach the end of a book and it has a satisfying conclusion (as you expected), then it is your decision to buy the next book or not. But if you get an unexpected cliffhanger, then the decision to buy has been somewhat taken away from you because now you have to buy the next book to find out what happens.

As for lengths shorter than novel length, I think that the shorter the story the less immersive it is. When I was a kid, I never liked short stories, but I never really thought about why. Now I realize that there is little to no world building in short stories, and little to no character development. And the shorter the story, the less there can be of world building and character development.

In the past I struggled with what the difference was between short stories and novels. One of the things I found is that short stories are a "slice of life". Short stories can be about a short time period in the protagonist's life. And it's really hard to make that interesting.

1) Readers love cliffhangers - they've proved this over the years by buying them - a lot. But...cliffhangers work best with shorter serialized fiction (see Dickens), which has made a big comeback with self-publishing.

2) Story emersion is not determined by length, but rather by how well it is written, its focus and its character to plot ratio.

3) Slice of life stories can be as interesting as anything else, but they are much more difficult to write well. Same with short stories. Many authors think short stories are short novels, but they are completely different and much more difficult to do well. Mark Twain - I didn't have time to write you a short letter, so I wrote you a long one.

[LilyBLily]

<snip>
3) Slice of life stories can be as interesting as anything else, but they are much more difficult to write well. Same with short stories. Many authors think short stories are short novels, but they are completely different and much more difficult to do well. Mark Twain - I didn't have time to write you a short letter, so I wrote you a long one.

I agree there. It's much harder to write a short story--or even a shorter novel--than a long one. I've seen certain authors who started with short novels seemingly banging their elbows against the constraints of that form as their powers increased and they wanted to tell longer and more complex stories.

Compare the short story to a painting in miniature. Everything must be in it, and yet it must be tiny. That means utter precision and no wasted anything.

[Lorri Moulton]

My favorite short stories are like a great Twilight Zone episode.  They pack a lot into a small package, and they stay with you long after the story ends.

[Anarchist]

My favorite short stories are like a great Twilight Zone episode.  They pack a lot into a small package, and they stay with you long after the story ends.

You reminded me of Shirley Jackson's The Lottery. I read it decades ago and still remember it.

[She-la-te-da]

The thing about the series page is, I don't write shorts in series. I have an idea, a story to tell, it gets told and it's done. No pulling it across seven or eight shorts, or I would just make it one book and be done with it.

I used to love short stories, I still have my old Twilight Zone magazines somewhere, and maybe a few Asimov's. I still love them, but reading them lately is like getting two sentences of a conversation and having to chase after the people to get the rest, over and over again.

Anyway, I've been working on my serial, got four episodes up. Another seven written, more to come. I doubt it will go anywhere, but I'm happy to finally be writing again, after four years.