Author Topic: The dreaded comma splice!  (Read 8176 times)

jameswatsonbooks

  • Tag Line unlocked
  • *
  • Posts: 3
The dreaded comma splice!
« on: August 21, 2020, 09:57:34 AM »
Hello, long-time lurker here. It took the much talked about comma splice to make me finally post.

I've been looking at lots of examples online but can't find any that relate to the way I'm using them. At least, I think I am using them.

Are these comma splices?

"He took a lungful of his cigarette, blew the smoke out of the window."
"Jimmy folded his arms, looked impatiently at the floor."

I've gone for this style in certain places to try and drive the action forward. I also want to limit the amount of and's and then's I use. However, I've been researching this a bit and a lot of people find it annoying, so I obviously don't want to turn people off.

What are your opinions?
 

elleoco

Re: The dreaded comma splice!
« Reply #1 on: August 21, 2020, 10:14:47 AM »
No, your examples are sentences with compound predicates (verb clauses). They'd be more usually written as:

"He took a lungful of his cigarette and blew the smoke out of the window."
"Jimmy folded his arms and looked impatiently at the floor."

But they aren't incorrect the way you did it, just a less common style.

Comma splices are complete sentences joined only by a comma.

"He took a lungful of his cigarette, he blew the smoke out of the window."
"Jimmy folded his arms, he looked impatiently at the floor."

The comma splice is incorrect, but changing the comma to a semi-colon fixes it as does "and" or another conjunction between the sentences.

That said, some of us occasionally deliberately use a comma splice now and then in particular situations such as two short and very related sentences.

 
The following users thanked this post: angela

jameswatsonbooks

  • Tag Line unlocked
  • *
  • Posts: 3
Re: The dreaded comma splice!
« Reply #2 on: August 21, 2020, 10:22:31 AM »
Ah, great. Thanks for that. I noticed I have used this style a lot in my latest book and am afraid it will grate on some people. Personally, I like it. But I like that fast, almost cinematic style.
 

elleoco

Re: The dreaded comma splice!
« Reply #3 on: August 21, 2020, 10:37:26 AM »
Keep in mind sometimes a little goes a long way.

Maggie Ann

Re: The dreaded comma splice!
« Reply #4 on: August 21, 2020, 12:36:53 PM »
What genre do you write in?

I think I would be annoyed by the comma splice in a romance, but I probably wouldn't be annoyed in a more action oriented genre
« Last Edit: August 21, 2020, 10:25:08 PM by Maggie Ann »
           
 
The following users thanked this post: idontknowyet

elleoco

Re: The dreaded comma splice!
« Reply #5 on: August 21, 2020, 02:28:29 PM »
I write historical romance, and as I said, I occasionally leave a comma splice in. It depends on how it reads when I read it out loud, which is one of my last pass-throughs. It's almost always two short sentences, and sometimes a full stop is more pause than I want between the two. I can't say others never slip by without that deliberate intent, but then I see them in supposedly many-times-expertly-edited traditional books. I recently read a book that was full of them, though. Yes, they were annoying and IMO signaled nothing but poor editing.

Jeff Tanyard

Re: The dreaded comma splice!
« Reply #6 on: August 21, 2020, 04:27:27 PM »
Ellen covered it quite nicely.   :cheers

I personally detest comma splices.  I think they've become much more ubiquitous in recent years, and I blame Twitter for that.  The comma has become something of a universal punctuation mark on Twitter, and the result is that one sometimes has to read a sentence multiple times in order to suss out the logic.  When it comes to reading, today's kids are being raised on social media rather than books that have been proofread, and the result is that they're internalizing a lot of bad habits. 

Another common error I see is the omission of the comma between a greeting and a name.  I see this everywhere.

Hello, Jeff!  <= correct
Hello Jeff!  <= incorrect


And now I'm going to yell at some clouds.   :rant


v  v  v  v  v    Short Stories    v  v  v  v  v    vv FREE! vv
     
Genres: Science Fiction, Fantasy (some day) | Author Website
 
The following users thanked this post: Anarchist, Picky Cat Editing

jameswatsonbooks

  • Tag Line unlocked
  • *
  • Posts: 3
Re: The dreaded comma splice!
« Reply #7 on: August 21, 2020, 06:40:53 PM »
What genre do you write in?

I think I would be annoyed by the comma slice in a romance, but I probably wouldn't be annoyed in a more action oriented genre

It's action thriller. I agree, that's why it doesn't feel jarring in this particular story to use them as I think it helps propel things along. If I were doing drama or, as you say, romance, I don't think I'd use that structure at all.
 

PJ Post

Re: The dreaded comma splice!
« Reply #8 on: August 22, 2020, 05:00:28 AM »
I think style plays a big role. In third past, I expect pretty formal-ish writing. Even little things can be annoying. In first present, I don't expect anything. Since it's all stream of consciousness/immediate experience, comma splices make a lot of since because that's how people think - one thought leading into the next without formal stops and starts. And the most important aspect to understand about first present is that the prose is all characterization. Which is why first present allows us so much more freedom to play around with fragments and non-traditional structures. It's this freedom that is so pivotal in effectively communicating character.

Third past has that traditional foundation to fall back on, which makes for more neutral, less-differentiated prose. And while first present has fewer rules, it's also much tougher to do well - for example, managing how many comma splices are still way too many comma splices.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2020, 05:02:48 AM by PJ Post »
 
The following users thanked this post: idontknowyet

Anarchist

Re: The dreaded comma splice!
« Reply #9 on: August 22, 2020, 09:09:33 AM »
I personally detest comma splices.

I've lost count of the number of times I've seen them in a book's Look Inside and immediately noped out.

Noped out of the book (will not buy it) and noped out of the author (will not read anything written by her/him).

"The first lesson of economics is scarcity: there is never enough of anything to fully satisfy all those who want it. The first lesson of politics is to disregard the first lesson of economics.” – Thomas Sowell

"The State is an institution run by gangs of murderers, plunderers and thieves, surrounded by willing executioners, propagandists, sycophants, crooks, liars, clowns, charlatans, dupes and useful idiots—an institution that dirties and taints everything it touches.” - Hans Hoppe

"Virtue is more to be feared than vice, because its excesses are not subject to the regulation of conscience." - Adam Smith

Nothing that requires the labor of others is a basic human right.

I keep a stiff upper lip and shoot from the hip. - AC/DC
 
The following users thanked this post: Jeff Tanyard

Jeff Tanyard

Re: The dreaded comma splice!
« Reply #10 on: August 22, 2020, 11:16:29 AM »
I personally detest comma splices.

I've lost count of the number of times I've seen them in a book's Look Inside and immediately noped out.

Noped out of the book (will not buy it) and noped out of the author (will not read anything written by her/him).


Nice to know I'm not the only one with strong feelings about the comma splice.   :icon_rofl:
v  v  v  v  v    Short Stories    v  v  v  v  v    vv FREE! vv
     
Genres: Science Fiction, Fantasy (some day) | Author Website
 

Anarchist

Re: The dreaded comma splice!
« Reply #11 on: August 22, 2020, 11:32:21 AM »
I personally detest comma splices.

I've lost count of the number of times I've seen them in a book's Look Inside and immediately noped out.

Noped out of the book (will not buy it) and noped out of the author (will not read anything written by her/him).


Nice to know I'm not the only one with strong feelings about the comma splice.   :icon_rofl:

You will be receiving an application to the Comma Splice Curmudgeon Club shortly. What we lack in membership size we make up for in crotchetiness.




"The first lesson of economics is scarcity: there is never enough of anything to fully satisfy all those who want it. The first lesson of politics is to disregard the first lesson of economics.” – Thomas Sowell

"The State is an institution run by gangs of murderers, plunderers and thieves, surrounded by willing executioners, propagandists, sycophants, crooks, liars, clowns, charlatans, dupes and useful idiots—an institution that dirties and taints everything it touches.” - Hans Hoppe

"Virtue is more to be feared than vice, because its excesses are not subject to the regulation of conscience." - Adam Smith

Nothing that requires the labor of others is a basic human right.

I keep a stiff upper lip and shoot from the hip. - AC/DC
 
The following users thanked this post: sliderule, R. C., Picky Cat Editing

Jeff Tanyard

Re: The dreaded comma splice!
« Reply #12 on: August 22, 2020, 11:44:59 AM »
You will be receiving an application to the Comma Splice Curmudgeon Club shortly. What we lack in membership size we make up for in crotchetiness.


v  v  v  v  v    Short Stories    v  v  v  v  v    vv FREE! vv
     
Genres: Science Fiction, Fantasy (some day) | Author Website
 
The following users thanked this post: Anarchist

Picky Cat Editing

  • Blurb unlocked
  • *
  • Posts: 14
  • Thanked: 5 times
  • Gender: Male
  • FINDING THE COMBINATION TO MAKE YOUR WORDS SHINE
    • Picky Cat Editing
Re: The dreaded comma splice!
« Reply #13 on: September 12, 2020, 04:57:04 AM »
I've mourned the death of the semicolon. So many don't seem to even know about it. I'm doing my best to bring it back though. One editing job at a time.
FINDING THE COMBINATION THAT MAKES YOUR WORDS SHINE!

My Writer Sanctum editing post: https://writersanctum.com/index.php?topic=1361.0

Find me on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/PickyCatEditing
 
The following users thanked this post: Jeff Tanyard

TimothyEllis

  • Forum Owner
  • Administrator
  • Series unlocked
  • ******
  • Posts: 6437
  • Thanked: 2511 times
  • Gender: Male
  • Earth Galaxy core, 2618
    • The Hunter Imperium Universe
Re: The dreaded comma splice!
« Reply #14 on: September 12, 2020, 12:17:58 PM »
I've mourned the death of the semicolon. So many don't seem to even know about it. I'm doing my best to bring it back though. One editing job at a time.

I recently did the opposite. Re-edited my second series, and removed them all.
Genres: Space Opera/Fantasy/Cyberpunk, with elements of LitRPG and GameLit, with a touch of the Supernatural. Also Spiritual and Games.



Timothy Ellis Kindle Author page. | Join the Hunter Legacy mailing list | The Hunter Imperium Universe on Facebook. | Forum Promo Page.
 

Picky Cat Editing

  • Blurb unlocked
  • *
  • Posts: 14
  • Thanked: 5 times
  • Gender: Male
  • FINDING THE COMBINATION TO MAKE YOUR WORDS SHINE
    • Picky Cat Editing
Re: The dreaded comma splice!
« Reply #15 on: September 12, 2020, 12:59:58 PM »
I've mourned the death of the semicolon. So many don't seem to even know about it. I'm doing my best to bring it back though. One editing job at a time.

I recently did the opposite. Re-edited my second series, and removed them all.

gasp!  :eek:
FINDING THE COMBINATION THAT MAKES YOUR WORDS SHINE!

My Writer Sanctum editing post: https://writersanctum.com/index.php?topic=1361.0

Find me on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/PickyCatEditing
 

Jeff Tanyard

Re: The dreaded comma splice!
« Reply #16 on: September 12, 2020, 01:27:42 PM »
I've mourned the death of the semicolon. So many don't seem to even know about it. I'm doing my best to bring it back though. One editing job at a time.

I recently did the opposite. Re-edited my second series, and removed them all.


v  v  v  v  v    Short Stories    v  v  v  v  v    vv FREE! vv
     
Genres: Science Fiction, Fantasy (some day) | Author Website
 

R. C.

  • Epic Novel unlocked
  • ****
  • Posts: 1162
  • Thanked: 386 times
  • Gender: Male
  • "Sooner barbarity than boredom." - T. Gautier
    • R C Ducantlin - Writer of Stories
Re: The dreaded comma splice!
« Reply #17 on: September 13, 2020, 01:58:21 AM »
Storytime, boys, and girls.

I always knew... Several months ago, I concluded my English language education was subpar.

Who knew you could receive advanced degrees and not know how to write well? EVERYONE who knows how to write well knows subpar writing skills do not impede receiving a parchment.

I overcome my lack of formal education in the English language arts with a couple of tools and strict adherence to a process.

Tools: MS Word and its new Editor, coupled with Grammarly, and MS Word Read Aloud.

Process:

  • Write drunk (that’s a joke, I rarely drink).
  • Edit sober (that is not a joke).
  • I perform a complete top to bottom edit.
  • Send the manuscript to the Beta Editor.
  • I make changes and corrections based on the feedback from the Beta Editor.
  • I run a top-to-bottom review with Grammarly and the MS Word Editor.
  • Send the manuscript to the genre-specific Developmental Editor.
  • I make changes and corrections based on the feedback from the Developmental Editor.
  • I run a top-to-bottom review with Grammarly and the MS Word Editor.
  • When I am happy with the results, I put on headphones and use the MS Word Read Aloud feature to read every single, no skipping, no speed-reading, read and follow, EVERY WORD.
  • Sometimes, I send it to a Copy Editor and repeat steps 8-10. Sometimes, I go direct to publishing.

I bet you can guess which problem in my writing the tools highlight the most often. Give up? Because of the way my thoughts translate to the words on the page, the common-splice is my nemesis.

What I learned from my process was something most people learned in ENG101: Style is important, but there is no substitute for reading and reading and reading with an eye to flow and correctness.

Also, before I get flamed, NO, I do not accept all the changes recommended by MS Word or Grammarly.  However, if they both chatter at a passage, it is likely I did something wrong. I examine the section closely.  Where they are contradictory in their recommendations, I look closely at the selection and make adjustments.

Not sure this will help anyone, happy to answer any questions.  (See what I did there?)

Cheers,
R.C.

UPDATE: I recently started reviewing my work for overused words. This site: WordClouds is useful.

UPDATE: 14-SEP-2020

This is a snippet from the weekly summary Grammarly issues:
 
TOP 3 MISTAKES
 
1. Missing comma in compound sentence - 13 alerts
2. Comma splice - 6 alerts
3. Squinting modifier - 5 alerts

Those numbers are down week-over-week.   :littleclap

Cheers,
R.C.

 




« Last Edit: September 15, 2020, 10:16:13 AM by R. C. »
 

David VanDyke

  • Long Novel unlocked
  • ***
  • Posts: 799
  • Thanked: 805 times
  • Gender: Male
  • Full-time hybrid author and curmudgeon
    • David VanDyke's Author Website
Re: The dreaded comma splice!
« Reply #18 on: September 18, 2020, 06:10:48 AM »
I've mourned the death of the semicolon. So many don't seem to even know about it. I'm doing my best to bring it back though. One editing job at a time.

The semicolon is not the solution IMO. Most comma splices are not used where semicolons are appropriate. Rather, most invite a period (full stop) and  a new sentence.

In his book A Man Without a Country, (Kurt) Vonnegut writes, “Here is a lesson in creative writing. The first rule: do not use semicolons. They are transvestite hermaphrodites representing absolutely nothing. All they do is show you've been to college.”
Never listen to people with no skin in the game.

I'm a lucky guy. I find the harder I work, the luckier I am.

Those who prefer their English sloppy have only themselves to thank if the advertisement writer uses his mastery of the vocabulary and syntax to mislead their weak minds.

~ Dorothy L. Sayers
 
The following users thanked this post: Anarchist

Picky Cat Editing

  • Blurb unlocked
  • *
  • Posts: 14
  • Thanked: 5 times
  • Gender: Male
  • FINDING THE COMBINATION TO MAKE YOUR WORDS SHINE
    • Picky Cat Editing
Re: The dreaded comma splice!
« Reply #19 on: September 18, 2020, 06:44:19 AM »
Eh. No disrespect to Kurt but I still think semicolons have their place. There's no need to get heavy-handed with them but they have their place, IMO. They're supposed to be used to show a close connection between two sentences, so I'd use one in something like: Martha had to go to the store; Clark forgot to get milk on his way home.

But ultimately it's up to the author. If they prefer a period or em dash, or even leaving the comma, it's their choice because it's their story and their words.
FINDING THE COMBINATION THAT MAKES YOUR WORDS SHINE!

My Writer Sanctum editing post: https://writersanctum.com/index.php?topic=1361.0

Find me on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/PickyCatEditing
 

Jeff Tanyard

Re: The dreaded comma splice!
« Reply #20 on: September 18, 2020, 07:10:16 AM »
The first rule: do not use semicolons.


Sounds like something Diana Moon Glampers would decree.  ;)

(Bonus points to anyone who got that reference without having to Google.)

Also:

https://www.quickanddirtytips.com/education/grammar/vonneguts-famous-semicolon-advice-was-taken-out-of-context
v  v  v  v  v    Short Stories    v  v  v  v  v    vv FREE! vv
     
Genres: Science Fiction, Fantasy (some day) | Author Website
 

j tanner

Re: The dreaded comma splice!
« Reply #21 on: September 18, 2020, 08:29:21 AM »
I've mourned the death of the semicolon. So many don't seem to even know about it. I'm doing my best to bring it back though. One editing job at a time.

I recently did the opposite. Re-edited my second series, and removed them all.

 :tup3b
 

TimothyEllis

  • Forum Owner
  • Administrator
  • Series unlocked
  • ******
  • Posts: 6437
  • Thanked: 2511 times
  • Gender: Male
  • Earth Galaxy core, 2618
    • The Hunter Imperium Universe
Re: The dreaded comma splice!
« Reply #22 on: September 18, 2020, 11:35:59 AM »
so I'd use one in something like: Martha had to go to the store; Clark forgot to get milk on his way home.

Martha had to go to the store because Clark forgot to get milk on his way home.
Genres: Space Opera/Fantasy/Cyberpunk, with elements of LitRPG and GameLit, with a touch of the Supernatural. Also Spiritual and Games.



Timothy Ellis Kindle Author page. | Join the Hunter Legacy mailing list | The Hunter Imperium Universe on Facebook. | Forum Promo Page.
 

Picky Cat Editing

  • Blurb unlocked
  • *
  • Posts: 14
  • Thanked: 5 times
  • Gender: Male
  • FINDING THE COMBINATION TO MAKE YOUR WORDS SHINE
    • Picky Cat Editing
Re: The dreaded comma splice!
« Reply #23 on: September 18, 2020, 12:49:38 PM »
so I'd use one in something like: Martha had to go to the store; Clark forgot to get milk on his way home.

Martha had to go to the store because Clark forgot to get milk on his way home.

That works too. That's the great thing about writing. There are a lot of ways to tell the story.
FINDING THE COMBINATION THAT MAKES YOUR WORDS SHINE!

My Writer Sanctum editing post: https://writersanctum.com/index.php?topic=1361.0

Find me on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/PickyCatEditing
 

Jan Hurst-Nicholson

  • Epic Novel unlocked
  • ****
  • Posts: 1171
  • Thanked: 302 times
  • Don't let your emotions overpower your intellect
    • Just4kix Books
Re: The dreaded comma splice!
« Reply #24 on: September 19, 2020, 02:21:58 AM »
Ellen covered it quite nicely.   :cheers

I personally detest comma splices.  I think they've become much more ubiquitous in recent years, and I blame Twitter for that.  The comma has become something of a universal punctuation mark on Twitter, and the result is that one sometimes has to read a sentence multiple times in order to suss out the logic.  When it comes to reading, today's kids are being raised on social media rather than books that have been proofread, and the result is that they're internalizing a lot of bad habits. 

Another common error I see is the omission of the comma between a greeting and a name.  I see this everywhere.

Hello, Jeff!  <= correct
Hello Jeff!  <= incorrect


And now I'm going to yell at some clouds.   :rant




^^^ this ^^^
Another reader who finds this annoying, stops reading  Grin. I often have to re-read the sentence and put in my own 'and' to make sense of it. :rant
I take the line that few readers are going to cheer and say, "Great, a comma splice. I love comma splices."  But there will be readers who find it aggravating. I would use them cautiously.

Non-fiction, Fiction, family saga, humour, short stories, teen, children's
Jan Hurst-Nicholson | author website
 

Jan Hurst-Nicholson

  • Epic Novel unlocked
  • ****
  • Posts: 1171
  • Thanked: 302 times
  • Don't let your emotions overpower your intellect
    • Just4kix Books
Re: The dreaded comma splice!
« Reply #25 on: September 19, 2020, 02:28:49 AM »
Storytime, boys, and girls.

I always knew... Several months ago, I concluded my English language education was subpar.

Who knew you could receive advanced degrees and not know how to write well? EVERYONE who knows how to write well knows subpar writing skills do not impede receiving a parchment.

I overcome my lack of formal education in the English language arts with a couple of tools and strict adherence to a process.

Tools: MS Word and its new Editor, coupled with Grammarly, and MS Word Read Aloud.

Process:

  • Write drunk (that’s a joke, I rarely drink).
  • Edit sober (that is not a joke).
  • I perform a complete top to bottom edit.
  • Send the manuscript to the Beta Editor.
  • I make changes and corrections based on the feedback from the Beta Editor.
  • I run a top-to-bottom review with Grammarly and the MS Word Editor.
  • Send the manuscript to the genre-specific Developmental Editor.
  • I make changes and corrections based on the feedback from the Developmental Editor.
  • I run a top-to-bottom review with Grammarly and the MS Word Editor.
  • When I am happy with the results, I put on headphones and use the MS Word Read Aloud feature to read every single, no skipping, no speed-reading, read and follow, EVERY WORD.
  • Sometimes, I send it to a Copy Editor and repeat steps 8-10. Sometimes, I go direct to publishing.

I bet you can guess which problem in my writing the tools highlight the most often. Give up? Because of the way my thoughts translate to the words on the page, the common-splice is my nemesis.

What I learned from my process was something most people learned in ENG101: Style is important, but there is no substitute for reading and reading and reading with an eye to flow and correctness.

Also, before I get flamed, NO, I do not accept all the changes recommended by MS Word or Grammarly.  However, if they both chatter at a passage, it is likely I did something wrong. I examine the section closely.  Where they are contradictory in their recommendations, I look closely at the selection and make adjustments.

Not sure this will help anyone, happy to answer any questions.  (See what I did there?)

Cheers,
R.C.

UPDATE: I recently started reviewing my work for overused words. This site: WordClouds is useful.

UPDATE: 14-SEP-2020

This is a snippet from the weekly summary Grammarly issues:
 
TOP 3 MISTAKES
 
1. Missing comma in compound sentence - 13 alerts
2. Comma splice - 6 alerts
3. Squinting modifier - 5 alerts

Those numbers are down week-over-week.   :littleclap

Cheers,
R.C.

Another good way of editing is to read the story backwards sentence by sentence.  Grin

Non-fiction, Fiction, family saga, humour, short stories, teen, children's
Jan Hurst-Nicholson | author website
 
The following users thanked this post: R. C.

j tanner

Re: The dreaded comma splice!
« Reply #26 on: September 19, 2020, 07:47:45 AM »
so I'd use one in something like: Martha had to go to the store; Clark forgot to get milk on his way home.

Martha had to go to the store because Clark forgot to get milk on his way home.

Or...

Martha had to go to the store. Clark forgot to get milk on his way home.

It doesn't take a brain surgeon to figure out that all sentences that occur sequentially within a paragraph are closely related.
 

JRTomlin

Re: The dreaded comma splice!
« Reply #27 on: September 24, 2020, 10:09:18 AM »


Another good way of editing is to read the story backwards sentence by sentence.  Grin
There is a problem with doing it that way. You can't edit for continuity and frequent problems like pronouns with unclear antecedents. It is good for simply proofreading for typos though which heaven knows are a headache to catch.

And going back to the original post, a reminder that those are not comma splices. The sentences may be annoying, but that's not what a comma splice is.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2020, 10:14:03 AM by JRTomlin »
 

The Bass Bagwhan

Re: The dreaded comma splice!
« Reply #28 on: October 14, 2020, 10:41:35 AM »
A comma after or before a name is, as I understand it, a "vocative" comma. But it can be dropped if it's part of a longer sentence.
"Hi, Jeff."
"Hi Jeff, what's happenings?"
As for comma splices, semi colons ... if you choose to write in that kind of style, and do it correctly (good luck with that ...) it's fine, but you'll always risk alienating some readers.
 

JRTomlin

Re: The dreaded comma splice!
« Reply #29 on: October 14, 2020, 10:46:59 AM »
Anything 'can' be dropped. That doesn't make it according to any accepted style guide that I know of. It is still called for by both CMOS and AP, and you are likely to be called by some for using incorrect punctuation. The missing comma before Jeff in your second example made me wince.

Edit: In my opinion, no, it cannot *correctly* be dropped, although anything can be and often is dropped in textspeak. "Jeff, is that your aunt?" is correct. "Jeff is that your aunt?" is not. And "Is that your aunt Jeff?" has a totally different meaning than "Is that your aunt, Jeff?"
« Last Edit: October 14, 2020, 10:52:39 AM by JRTomlin »
 

TimothyEllis

  • Forum Owner
  • Administrator
  • Series unlocked
  • ******
  • Posts: 6437
  • Thanked: 2511 times
  • Gender: Male
  • Earth Galaxy core, 2618
    • The Hunter Imperium Universe
Re: The dreaded comma splice!
« Reply #30 on: October 14, 2020, 11:11:40 AM »
"Hi, Jeff."
"Hi Jeff, what's happenings?"

The missing comma before Jeff in your second example made me wince.

In that case, having 2 commas for 4 words seems excessive.

The first has a different rhythm to the second. The first has a natural pause between the 2 words, the second does not.

"Hi, Jeff, where's the forklift?" doesn't work.
"Hi Jeff, where's the forklift?" does.
"Hi, Jeff. Where's the forklift?" does.

But someone looking for the forklift isn't going to do a formal greeting first. 

It'll more likely be, "Hey Jeff, wheres the forklift?" with just the single pause after the name, and only a hardly noticeable pause.
Genres: Space Opera/Fantasy/Cyberpunk, with elements of LitRPG and GameLit, with a touch of the Supernatural. Also Spiritual and Games.



Timothy Ellis Kindle Author page. | Join the Hunter Legacy mailing list | The Hunter Imperium Universe on Facebook. | Forum Promo Page.
 

JRTomlin

Re: The dreaded comma splice!
« Reply #31 on: October 14, 2020, 11:13:25 AM »
Whether a comma is correct or not really has nothing to do with how many there are in the sentence. That sentence would lead me to wonder if the author understood basic punctuation.
 

TimothyEllis

  • Forum Owner
  • Administrator
  • Series unlocked
  • ******
  • Posts: 6437
  • Thanked: 2511 times
  • Gender: Male
  • Earth Galaxy core, 2618
    • The Hunter Imperium Universe
Re: The dreaded comma splice!
« Reply #32 on: October 14, 2020, 12:09:32 PM »
Whether a comma is correct or not really has nothing to do with how many there are in the sentence. That sentence would lead me to wonder if the author understood basic punctuation.

Dialog often has nothing to do with basic punctuation. It's how people talk to each other.

Perhaps it's an Australian thing.
Genres: Space Opera/Fantasy/Cyberpunk, with elements of LitRPG and GameLit, with a touch of the Supernatural. Also Spiritual and Games.



Timothy Ellis Kindle Author page. | Join the Hunter Legacy mailing list | The Hunter Imperium Universe on Facebook. | Forum Promo Page.
 

JRTomlin

Re: The dreaded comma splice!
« Reply #33 on: October 14, 2020, 12:13:11 PM »
It can be deliberately wrong to indicate ignorance or lack of education, but the basic point of punctuation is to clearly deliver what you are saying.  If it doesn't do that, then you've failed whether it is 'how people talk' or not.  The commas are around evocatives for a reason. The reason is clarity.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2020, 12:16:15 PM by JRTomlin »
 

Luke Everhart

  • Long Novel unlocked
  • ***
  • Posts: 863
  • Thanked: 429 times
  • Gender: Male
  • Energizer bunny arrested: charged with battery. 😔
Re: The dreaded comma splice!
« Reply #34 on: October 14, 2020, 12:46:40 PM »
In that case, having 2 commas for 4 words seems excessive.

The first has a different rhythm to the second. The first has a natural pause between the 2 words, the second does not.

"Hi, Jeff, where's the forklift?" doesn't work.
"Hi Jeff, where's the forklift?" does.
"Hi, Jeff. Where's the forklift?" does.

But someone looking for the forklift isn't going to do a formal greeting first. 

It'll more likely be, "Hey Jeff, wheres the forklift?" with just the single pause after the name, and only a hardly noticeable pause.

Completely agree with this 👆

My take is that grammar, while broadly necessary, sometimes has to take a backseat in the service of things like cadence, the natural flow of dialog, or emotional effect (like in the strategic use of sentence fragments to punctuate a moment).
Accordingly, most of us reading fiction have expectations of grammar that are quite different than our expectations reading a term paper or a work of commercial non-fiction. We lose immersion not necessarily when a "rule" is broken but when something disrupts the flow of the story. Sometimes that's incoherence and, yeah, is due to grammatical error; but, sometimes that's language feeling unnatural or forced and due to excess grammatical formality (dialog is most susceptible to that but a distinctive narrative voice can be sabotaged too).

Edit: I added a bit of grammar I'd left out 😏 ... 😉
« Last Edit: October 16, 2020, 01:27:12 AM by Luke Everhart »
Urban Fantasy Author
Magic & Mirth meets Action & Attitude
 

TimothyEllis

  • Forum Owner
  • Administrator
  • Series unlocked
  • ******
  • Posts: 6437
  • Thanked: 2511 times
  • Gender: Male
  • Earth Galaxy core, 2618
    • The Hunter Imperium Universe
Re: The dreaded comma splice!
« Reply #35 on: October 14, 2020, 01:10:34 PM »
It can be deliberately wrong to indicate ignorance or lack of education, but the basic point of punctuation is to clearly deliver what you are saying.  If it doesn't do that, then you've failed whether it is 'how people talk' or not.  The commas are around evocatives for a reason. The reason is clarity.

"Hi, Jeff" to me, reads the same as "Hi. Jeff." The comma is a hard pause. (The full stop is harder, but just to show what I mean.) I've adapted to use the comma like that now, but it still doesn't read right for me.

But when I say "Hi Jeff." there is no pause, of any kind. This is even more true for "Hey Jeff, ......".

It's the way Australians talk.

It may not be good literature, but I don't write literature. Never will. Never want to.

When I write dialogue, the character defines the punctuation.
Genres: Space Opera/Fantasy/Cyberpunk, with elements of LitRPG and GameLit, with a touch of the Supernatural. Also Spiritual and Games.



Timothy Ellis Kindle Author page. | Join the Hunter Legacy mailing list | The Hunter Imperium Universe on Facebook. | Forum Promo Page.
 

Jeff Tanyard

Re: The dreaded comma splice!
« Reply #36 on: October 14, 2020, 04:24:18 PM »
"Hi, Jeff" to me, reads the same as "Hi. Jeff."


How it reads to you is irrelevant.


Quote
But when I say "Hi Jeff." there is no pause, of any kind. This is even more true for "Hey Jeff, ......".


It's not about pauses.  It's not about breaths, or how Australians talk, or whatever.  It's not about any of that stuff.

It's about logic.  When you misuse a comma, you mess with the logic of the sentence.

https://www.dictionary.com/e/comma-placement-greetings-and-sign-offs/
v  v  v  v  v    Short Stories    v  v  v  v  v    vv FREE! vv
     
Genres: Science Fiction, Fantasy (some day) | Author Website
 
The following users thanked this post: Anarchist

TimothyEllis

  • Forum Owner
  • Administrator
  • Series unlocked
  • ******
  • Posts: 6437
  • Thanked: 2511 times
  • Gender: Male
  • Earth Galaxy core, 2618
    • The Hunter Imperium Universe
Re: The dreaded comma splice!
« Reply #37 on: October 14, 2020, 05:04:48 PM »
When you misuse a comma, you mess with the logic of the sentence.

"Damnit, Jim! I'm a writer, not a Vulcan."
Genres: Space Opera/Fantasy/Cyberpunk, with elements of LitRPG and GameLit, with a touch of the Supernatural. Also Spiritual and Games.



Timothy Ellis Kindle Author page. | Join the Hunter Legacy mailing list | The Hunter Imperium Universe on Facebook. | Forum Promo Page.
 

Simon Haynes

Re: The dreaded comma splice!
« Reply #38 on: October 14, 2020, 05:29:32 PM »
I never use semi-colons, and rarely use colons either. Personally I think they're better suited to non-fic, technical manuals, text books and the like, and don't like them in fiction. (That's just me, and everyone else can do what they like.)


I'd never use "Hi, Jeff, what's happening?" OR "Hi Jeff, what's happening?"

I'd have something like I entered the room and saw Jeff by the water cooler. "What's happening?" I demanded/asked/enquired (depending on urgency).


In real life I would only use someone's given name if they had their back to me and there were more than two people present - myself included.
 

notthatamanda

Re: The dreaded comma splice!
« Reply #39 on: October 14, 2020, 08:42:03 PM »
It can be deliberately wrong to indicate ignorance or lack of education, but the basic point of punctuation is to clearly deliver what you are saying.  If it doesn't do that, then you've failed whether it is 'how people talk' or not.  The commas are around evocatives for a reason. The reason is clarity.

"Hi, Jeff" to me, reads the same as "Hi. Jeff." The comma is a hard pause. (The full stop is harder, but just to show what I mean.) I've adapted to use the comma like that now, but it still doesn't read right for me.

But when I say "Hi Jeff." there is no pause, of any kind. This is even more true for "Hey Jeff, ......".

It's the way Australians talk.

It may not be good literature, but I don't write literature. Never will. Never want to.

When I write dialogue, the character defines the punctuation.
"Hi, Jeff," is grammatically correct though I hate the commas before and after a name everywhere.
"Hi. Jeff." I would use for tone, if the character wasn't happy to see someone, but I tend to use Simon's tactic and introduce the character in the scene and just use a plain, "Hi."
 

elleoco

Re: The dreaded comma splice!
« Reply #40 on: October 14, 2020, 10:01:39 PM »
Well, you know that thing about not taking a reader out of the story? The "Hi Jeff" thing does that to me every time. Of course maybe those of you arguing for its use don't care about readers who react that way. Of course we could argue about whether "of course" always needs a comma after too.
 
The following users thanked this post: PJ Post

PJ Post

Re: The dreaded comma splice!
« Reply #41 on: October 14, 2020, 11:02:42 PM »
My understanding is that punctuation was developed primarily as a guide, like sheet music notation, to let people know how to read a specific text aloud, especially in Church matters. I use it the same way, mostly by following grammatical convention, but also by deviating as necessary for dramatic purposes. To be fair, not only have punctuation styles evolved and changed over the years, modern Style Guides don't even agree; so, the right and wrong of it, at best, appears to be a bit illusory.

At the end of the day, it's situationally specific. I think we can all agree that the point of punctuation is better communication - both logical and dramatic. As a result, I'd recommend sticking with general conventions, partly as not to frustrate readers, but also because it's considered convention for a reason. Beyond that, if done well, readers won't be aware of any deviation from the norm - they'll just be entertained. I certainly wouldn't be afraid to experiment.

With that said, if your readers are worrying about comma splices, punctuation is probably the least of your concerns.
 

notthatamanda

Re: The dreaded comma splice!
« Reply #42 on: October 15, 2020, 12:27:20 AM »
Well, you know that thing about not taking a reader out of the story? The "Hi Jeff" thing does that to me every time. Of course maybe those of you arguing for its use don't care about readers who react that way. Of course we could argue about whether "of course" always needs a comma after too.
It would do that to me too, but oddly I get aggravated having to put them in every time.
 

Luke Everhart

  • Long Novel unlocked
  • ***
  • Posts: 863
  • Thanked: 429 times
  • Gender: Male
  • Energizer bunny arrested: charged with battery. 😔
Re: The dreaded comma splice!
« Reply #43 on: October 15, 2020, 04:22:37 AM »
"Hi, Jeff" to me, reads the same as "Hi. Jeff."


How it reads to you is irrelevant.


Quote
But when I say "Hi Jeff." there is no pause, of any kind. This is even more true for "Hey Jeff, ......".


It's not about pauses.  It's not about breaths, or how Australians talk, or whatever.  It's not about any of that stuff.

It's about logic.  When you misuse a comma, you mess with the logic of the sentence.

https://www.dictionary.com/e/comma-placement-greetings-and-sign-offs/

I've got to respectfully disagree. How it reads is not only relevant, it's the essence of it. The pauses very much affect the dialog in my head. "Hi, Jeff, what's happening?" evokes a slightly different tone than the more relaxed "Hi Jeff, what's happening?" I "hear" the second one as a more familiar and/or relaxed exchange than the first.

I do of course agree that grammar is essential for the logic necessary to effectively communicate in writing. But, in the examples about Jeff, the logic isn't really an issue since clarity isn't compromised.

The grammatical deviations that make sense to me are subtle and in specific contexts; notably, dialog. Although, just last night I was reading a book in a very entertaining series that used the sentence fragment deviation I mentioned in my prior post to punctuate a moment to great effect -- a common practice in fiction -- and it worked imo.

Urban Fantasy Author
Magic & Mirth meets Action & Attitude
 
The following users thanked this post: Anarchist

Simon Haynes

Re: The dreaded comma splice!
« Reply #44 on: October 15, 2020, 07:32:51 AM »
Not to blow this discussion up too much, but I just sent these three examples to one of the 50 folk kindly alpha-reading my latest. (Not examples of fine writing, or even sentences I would use, and I only put them out there to discuss the 'commas around and' issue.)

I believe (although I'm not certain) that the first is technically correct, but it has too many pauses for me.
The second sounds better to me when I hear the words in my head.
The third makes me want to gouge my eyes out.


Septimus pressed the button, and, with a smile, he opened the door.
Septimus pressed the button and, with a smile, he opened the door.
Septimus pressed the button, and with a smile, he opened the door.


Some might write 'Septimus pressed the button and opened the door with a smile' - no thanks, I prefer my doors serious.

 

notthatamanda

Re: The dreaded comma splice!
« Reply #45 on: October 15, 2020, 08:34:33 AM »
I found the book, "Eats, Shoots and Leaves" at a yard sale once. It is a good read, though not as funny as I hoped and the panda in the bar is not as good as Disappointment Panda who is both my favorite panda and superhero.

Panda #1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eats,_Shoots_%26_Leaves

Wikipedia good enough for this. Of course now we have the whole oxford comma to debate as well.
 

TimothyEllis

  • Forum Owner
  • Administrator
  • Series unlocked
  • ******
  • Posts: 6437
  • Thanked: 2511 times
  • Gender: Male
  • Earth Galaxy core, 2618
    • The Hunter Imperium Universe
Re: The dreaded comma splice!
« Reply #46 on: October 15, 2020, 12:15:28 PM »
The third makes me want to gouge my eyes out.

 :icon_rofl:

Better stay away, from my books.

 :icon_mrgreen:
Genres: Space Opera/Fantasy/Cyberpunk, with elements of LitRPG and GameLit, with a touch of the Supernatural. Also Spiritual and Games.



Timothy Ellis Kindle Author page. | Join the Hunter Legacy mailing list | The Hunter Imperium Universe on Facebook. | Forum Promo Page.
 

Lynn

Re: The dreaded comma splice!
« Reply #47 on: October 15, 2020, 01:50:30 PM »
Not to blow this discussion up too much, but I just sent these three examples to one of the 50 folk kindly alpha-reading my latest. (Not examples of fine writing, or even sentences I would use, and I only put them out there to discuss the 'commas around and' issue.)

I believe (although I'm not certain) that the first is technically correct, but it has too many pauses for me.
The second sounds better to me when I hear the words in my head.
The third makes me want to gouge my eyes out.


Septimus pressed the button, and, with a smile, he opened the door.
Septimus pressed the button and, with a smile, he opened the door.
Septimus pressed the button, and with a smile, he opened the door.


Some might write 'Septimus pressed the button and opened the door with a smile' - no thanks, I prefer my doors serious.

Just to be a contrarian, the third is the only sentence of the bunch I can stand to look at. :D Two sentences joined with a conjunction and a necessary comma, and a clause in the second sentence, separated by a comma.
Don't rush me.
 

TimothyEllis

  • Forum Owner
  • Administrator
  • Series unlocked
  • ******
  • Posts: 6437
  • Thanked: 2511 times
  • Gender: Male
  • Earth Galaxy core, 2618
    • The Hunter Imperium Universe
Re: The dreaded comma splice!
« Reply #48 on: October 15, 2020, 01:57:49 PM »
Not to blow this discussion up too much, but I just sent these three examples to one of the 50 folk kindly alpha-reading my latest. (Not examples of fine writing, or even sentences I would use, and I only put them out there to discuss the 'commas around and' issue.)

I believe (although I'm not certain) that the first is technically correct, but it has too many pauses for me.
The second sounds better to me when I hear the words in my head.
The third makes me want to gouge my eyes out.


Septimus pressed the button, and, with a smile, he opened the door.
Septimus pressed the button and, with a smile, he opened the door.
Septimus pressed the button, and with a smile, he opened the door.


Some might write 'Septimus pressed the button and opened the door with a smile' - no thanks, I prefer my doors serious.

Just to be a contrarian, the third is the only sentence of the bunch I can stand to look at. :D Two sentences joined with a conjunction and a necessary comma, and a clause in the second sentence, separated by a comma.

Is that what it is?  Grin

I would never put a comma after an and, always before.

Putting the comma after the and breaks the flow of the sentence completely. For me, anyway.
Genres: Space Opera/Fantasy/Cyberpunk, with elements of LitRPG and GameLit, with a touch of the Supernatural. Also Spiritual and Games.



Timothy Ellis Kindle Author page. | Join the Hunter Legacy mailing list | The Hunter Imperium Universe on Facebook. | Forum Promo Page.
 

Jeff Tanyard

Re: The dreaded comma splice!
« Reply #49 on: October 15, 2020, 02:17:14 PM »
I've got to respectfully disagree. How it reads is not only relevant, it's the essence of it.


I didn't write "how it reads is irrelevant."  I wrote "how it reads to you is irrelevant."  There's a difference.

Bonus points to anyone who can correctly explain that difference.  ;)

In other news, it appears we've moved on to the subject of the nonessential clause.  :icon_eek:
v  v  v  v  v    Short Stories    v  v  v  v  v    vv FREE! vv
     
Genres: Science Fiction, Fantasy (some day) | Author Website