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Writer's Workshop [Public] / Re: A Quandary
« Last post by TimothyEllis on Today at 02:34:22 PM »
I'm not ignoring the math at all.  As our example, let's use $3.99 as a compromise between the new and experienced author.  So, as a reader, I either buy one book for $3.99 (though I would argue a longer book could go for higher than a shorter book) or two books at $3.99 each.  With the former, I get the full story (which is also why I would argue a higher-than-normal price point would be acceptable.  With the latter, I have to buy a second book to get the full story, which means I spend $7.98.  (Again, if the longer single book was priced at, say, $4.99, it's still a better deal for me and the author still gets some extra money.)  And there is the strong chance that I'm going to feel like you artificially split the book to force me to spend more.  As I indicated in a previous post, while I may buy that second book, the likelihood that I would ever buy a third book from that author is slim to none.

So, you can look at it as, yay, you got $7.98 by selling me two books, but that's where your math ends.  On the other hand, you might sell me one book for $3.99 (or a little higher) and if I enjoyed it, which is a full story, then I may buy another book from you, perhaps a third or a fourth or more.  So, your options are $3.99 plus $3.99 for a total of $7.98 from me buying your two books or $3.99 plus $3.99 plus $3.99 plus $3.99 and onward if I like your one book and don't feel forced to buy a second or third or fourth.

Why are you taking a reader perspective on this?

We're AUTHORS. This is about AUTHOR INCOME.

As far as the 'forced to buy' thing goes, what difference does it make for a series of 2, and a series of 6 or 12?

You appear to be comparing 2 serial books, with a series of non-serial stories. That's apples and oranges comparison. A pair of books and a series of 6 serial books are the same thing.

I write serial novels. Each new story starts where the last one left off, or within a few days of it. Even across series breaks normally. 82 novels now which are largely just one 4 year long story. There's no 'forced to buy' anywhere in it. People do, because it's a good story, and a new part gets released on a good schedule.

My point is, if you have a natural break point, use it. If you don't, well, I guess you're stuck with one long book that you can list at $5.99 or $6.99--whatever the long fantasy novels list for--and hope for the best.

It doesn't work that way.

Length does NOT define price.

New authors can't command more than $2.99 and realistically sell, regardless of length.

I'm at a $5.99 price point now, averaging 63k. If I put out a 200k novel now, I'd still only get $5.99 for it. Anything more, and it wouldn't sell beyond my diehard fans. And yet, 3 books with the same story would all sell at $5.99 each without any issues.

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Writer's Workshop [Public] / Re: A Quandary
« Last post by Post-Crisis D on Today at 02:09:11 PM »
You're completely ignoring the math.

The 140k book won't command a higher price than the 70k will.

So if a new author, $2.99 .......... vs $2.99 + $2.99. Experienced author, $4.99 ..............vs $4.99 + $4.99.

Makes a huge difference to sales income, even if the KU is the same.

I'm not ignoring the math at all.  As our example, let's use $3.99 as a compromise between the new and experienced author.  So, as a reader, I either buy one book for $3.99 (though I would argue a longer book could go for higher than a shorter book) or two books at $3.99 each.  With the former, I get the full story (which is also why I would argue a higher-than-normal price point would be acceptable.  With the latter, I have to buy a second book to get the full story, which means I spend $7.98.  (Again, if the longer single book was priced at, say, $4.99, it's still a better deal for me and the author still gets some extra money.)  And there is the strong chance that I'm going to feel like you artificially split the book to force me to spend more.  As I indicated in a previous post, while I may buy that second book, the likelihood that I would ever buy a third book from that author is slim to none.

So, you can look at it as, yay, you got $7.98 by selling me two books, but that's where your math ends.  On the other hand, you might sell me one book for $3.99 (or a little higher) and if I enjoyed it, which is a full story, then I may buy another book from you, perhaps a third or a fourth or more.  So, your options are $3.99 plus $3.99 for a total of $7.98 from me buying your two books or $3.99 plus $3.99 plus $3.99 plus $3.99 and onward if I like your one book and don't feel forced to buy a second or third or fourth.
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Writer's Workshop [Public] / Re: A Quandary
« Last post by LilyBLily on Today at 01:47:37 PM »
I did a women's fiction that had a natural break in the story--characters, location, a hinted thread in the first suddenly blows up in the second--as one book. I don't think people liked it, even though they expect women's fiction stories to be lengthy and splitting it into two books would have yielded two very short books. The total book was only 96k, and turning it into two 48k books just wouldn't have made anyone happy. As it was, though, neither did the longer book because people don't expect a break like that in a book anymore. When I was a kid, there were plenty of novels around that did Part 1 and Part 2. Part 2 might happen sometimes years later, if not a hemisphere away. Maybe that is done in fantasy these days but I can't think of anywhere it is typical.

My point is, if you have a natural break point, use it. If you don't, well, I guess you're stuck with one long book that you can list at $5.99 or $6.99--whatever the long fantasy novels list for--and hope for the best.

Fashions come and go.
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Writer's Workshop [Public] / Re: A Quandary
« Last post by TimothyEllis on Today at 11:51:40 AM »
So, I don't get it.  If someone will read a 140k story split in two 70k books but they won't read a 140k story in one book, that person needs a smack to the head.  I mean, what's the problem?  If it's a paperback, stick a bookmark where you left off.  If it's an eBook, you can bookmark where you left off.  Will they feel better if it's sold as a "box set" which is one eBook with all the books?  At some point, you just have to say that this is stupid.  If a story is 140k words, it's 140k words whether it's put together in one 140k word book or two 70k word books.  And if there are people that will read the latter but not the former, it's just ridiculously stupid.  It's 140k words either way.

You're completely ignoring the math.

The 140k book won't command a higher price than the 70k will.

So if a new author, $2.99 .......... vs $2.99 + $2.99. Experienced author, $4.99 ..............vs $4.99 + $4.99.

Makes a huge difference to sales income, even if the KU is the same.

As far as cliffhanger goes, not true.

I use the 'there's got to be a morning after' principle.

You break the book where something has just been tied up, a nice little bit of aftermath, and the next challenge hasn't started yet.

In other words you get to a point midway in the story and break there, and start book 2 the next morning, the same as that next chapter was anyway.

All my series are done like this. And I rarely ever do a cliffhanger.

In any case, if the cliffhanger is there, and the next book is already on pre-order for release 1 month later, very few people care.

The only time cliff hangers are an issue is when it's going to be a year before the next book comes out.
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Writer's Workshop [Public] / Re: A Quandary
« Last post by Post-Crisis D on Today at 11:05:21 AM »
One book would have been my personal preference, too. But, as R. C. pointed out in the first post, 140,000 words is a lot for this kind of book in the current publishing climate. Do you think the length will be off-putting. (Some genres, like epic fantasy, run longer. Others tend not to, at least from what I can see.)

I'm still in the "a book is as long as it needs to be" camp.  If a book is a good read, do you even notice the length?  A poorly-written short book might seem long and a well-written longer book might feel short.  It depends on how good the read is and how that affects your feelings of the passage of time.  If I am enjoying reading a book, I don't read it fast.  If I'm not enjoying a book, if I continue reading it, I'm reading it at a faster rate, hoping to get to something good.

So, I don't know.  I suppose I just don't "get" judging a book based on its length.  And, for me personally, if I feel a book ends on a cliffhanger just to get me to buy the next book, while I may buy that second book, I would probably not buy another book from that author again. 

My earlier books were shorter (30k - 50k) and I did have a couple people tell me that they don't read books that short.  Okay, but so then did they buy any of my longer books?  Nope.  So, it seems like maybe word length is an excuse not to buy a book they may have had no intention of buying to begin with.  Consequently, I don't put too much stock in word length "requirements" anymore.  I mean, I will use them as a general guideline or target word count, but I'm not going to be overly particular about it.  I'd rather a book be shorter than to add fluff to hit a specific word count and I'd rather a book be longer than to cut out stuff I feel is necessary.

I think the most important thing is to write a good book, to write a book that will be enjoyable to read.  And a good book is as long as it needs to be.

Okay, so on the genre preference, it's supposedly 60k-90k, right?  So, imagine the 140k book is divided into two 70k books to meet the genre preference.  Um, what's the point?  The expectation or hope is that readers will buy the second book, right?  After all, the first book ends on a cliffhanger.  Whether you "package" the story in one book or two, the reader is still reading 140k words.  So, I ask, what the frak does it matter if those 140k words are in one book or two?  I mean, okay, you have someone say, oh, I'll only read a 60k-90k book in this genre.  But, do they only buy one book?  Or do they buy book after book?  And, if they buy book after book, they are reading more than 60k-90k words.  So, I don't get it.  If someone will read a 140k story split in two 70k books but they won't read a 140k story in one book, that person needs a smack to the head.  I mean, what's the problem?  If it's a paperback, stick a bookmark where you left off.  If it's an eBook, you can bookmark where you left off.  Will they feel better if it's sold as a "box set" which is one eBook with all the books?  At some point, you just have to say that this is stupid.  If a story is 140k words, it's 140k words whether it's put together in one 140k word book or two 70k word books.  And if there are people that will read the latter but not the former, it's just ridiculously stupid.  It's 140k words either way.

Plus, if it's not going to be a series, if it's just going to be two books, the first of which ends on a cliffhanger to get people to buy the second, just do one book and move on.
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Writer's Workshop [Public] / Re: A Quandary
« Last post by alhawke on Today at 01:26:10 AM »
I agree with Timothy. I tend to get more by having multiple books to sell (I regret one of my books that's 130k long--still might cut it in half).
I'd do something like this (I just jumbled your own words for flow). Whatever you do, I'd suggest keeping the words "murder club" to keep the flow of your series.


Book One: The Granite Bay Murder Club, A Nasense.

Book Two: Secrets of the Murder Club, Release.

Book Three: Shadows of the Murder Club, Confession.

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Writer's Workshop [Public] / Re: A Quandary
« Last post by TimothyEllis on Today at 12:04:41 AM »
There's nothing wrong with a two book series when both are about 70k each.

I used to tell LitRPG writers that it made more sense to do 2 or 3 book series than to do the doorstops they prefer to do.

They pay a lot better.
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Writer's Workshop [Public] / Re: A Quandary
« Last post by Bill Hiatt on Today at 12:00:34 AM »
Do you plan to write a series?  That is, will there be more than two books?  Or, is this it?

If this is it, I would tend to making it one book and be done with it, especially if what is currently the first book ends on a cliffhanger.  Depending on the nature of the cliffhanger, as a reader, I might feel it was done to force me to buy the second book to see how it all works out.

If it's a one-and-done, I'd rather have a single, longer book than two books.

Also, I suppose I'm a bit meh on duologies.  A series is something.  A trilogy is something.  Two books?  I don't know.  It's like the author couldn't put in the effort to either write one really strong book or flesh out a trilogy.  Two books kind of feels like the author didn't care and if the author didn't care, why should I?  IMO, of course.
One book would have been my personal preference, too. But, as R. C. pointed out in the first post, 140,000 words is a lot for this kind of book in the current publishing climate. Do you think the length will be off-putting. (Some genres, like epic fantasy, run longer. Others tend not to, at least from what I can see.)
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Writer's Workshop [Public] / Re: A Quandary
« Last post by Post-Crisis D on November 09, 2024, 04:36:49 AM »
Do you plan to write a series?  That is, will there be more than two books?  Or, is this it?

If this is it, I would tend to making it one book and be done with it, especially if what is currently the first book ends on a cliffhanger.  Depending on the nature of the cliffhanger, as a reader, I might feel it was done to force me to buy the second book to see how it all works out.

If it's a one-and-done, I'd rather have a single, longer book than two books.

Also, I suppose I'm a bit meh on duologies.  A series is something.  A trilogy is something.  Two books?  I don't know.  It's like the author couldn't put in the effort to either write one really strong book or flesh out a trilogy.  Two books kind of feels like the author didn't care and if the author didn't care, why should I?  IMO, of course.
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Writer's Workshop [Public] / Re: A Quandary
« Last post by R. C. on November 09, 2024, 01:08:13 AM »
Thanks to all for the quick responses. I am creating the series The Granite Bay Murder Club.

Book One: The Granite Bay Murder Club, A Nasense.

Book Two: Secrets of the Murder Club, Release.

Or one of these options for the title of book two:

A Symphony of Shadows
Echoes of Betrayal
Echoes of Innocence
Framed by Fate
Framed in Silence
Framed Innocence
Heartbreak in Granite Bay
Loyalty's End
Memories of a Killer
Murder as Masterpiece
Secrets in the Dark
Shadows Among Us
Shadows of Deceit
The Art of Deceit
The Art of Deception
The Club of Shadows
The Dangerous Game
The Gallery of Lies
The Game of Secrets
The Granite Bay Confession <-- This is another good option.
The Price of Truth
Whispers in the Dark
Whispers of Innocence

Thoughts?

R.C.

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