Author Topic: Potter & Wars the same?  (Read 890 times)

TimothyEllis

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Potter & Wars the same?
« on: March 13, 2023, 12:13:51 PM »
[This thread was cut from the Sanderson discussion, but the original post this one quotes was no longer there to include.]

Luke Skywalker and Harry Potter are basically the same person.
Ron is Han Solo and Hermione is Princess Leia.

Only in your most deluded nightmare.

I saw the Reel about that. I totally disagreed with it.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2023, 12:54:37 PM by TimothyEllis »
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Bill Hiatt

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Re: Potter & Wars the same?
« Reply #1 on: March 13, 2023, 11:41:01 PM »
There are general similarities. They both have coming-of-age stories. They both have destinies that only gradually unfold. They both have great enemies. They both have wise mentors. (Visualize Yoda doing Dumbledore's job at Hogwarts for a second. It's probably worth a laugh.) Both are in stories intended for children but widely appreciated by adults as well.

But they aren't in the same genre. One is related to the villain, and the other isn't. One is related to the principle female character, and the other isn't. Their supporting characters are really quite different. In fact, pretty much all the details are different. One could make a case at an archetypal level, but not with regard to the specifics. 


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TimothyEllis

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Re: Potter & Wars the same?
« Reply #2 on: March 13, 2023, 11:45:04 PM »
(Visualize Yoda doing Dumbledore's job at Hogwarts for a second. It's probably worth a laugh.)

Okay, I want to see that.

And the other way around too.

 :icon_rofl:
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Bill Hiatt

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Re: Potter & Wars the same?
« Reply #3 on: March 14, 2023, 11:30:57 PM »
Any of us with coming-of-age protagonists could do the same thing and come up with a lot of similarities. What I think the people who assume JK Rowling was just rewriting Star Wars are missing is the fact that both Harry Potter and Star Wars are rooted in earlier literary traditions (and probably human psychology, even if one doesn't believe in Jungian archetypes).

Consider King Arthur:

Raised by foster parents (his true father being King Uther Pendragon) and thus having a parental situation somewhat like Luke's, though not quite like Harry's. However, both are orphans
He has a destiny of which he is at first unaware (like both).
He is guided by an elderly wisdom figure (like Dumbledore and Yoda)
He is in some ways an outsider, especially early in life (like Luke and Harry)
He has internal struggles (like pretty much everyone ever)
He ends up in struggles that, especially in the most Christianized versions, are epic battles between good and evil (like Luke and Harry)
He has a magical weapon, Excalibur (like light saber or Godric Griffindor's sword)
And on...and on...and on. 

Of course, the magic elements are really more like Merlin than Arthur, but guess what? Merlin fits the pattern also

Merlin is born or a mortal woman and a demon (in some versions, Satan himself, for Merlin is intended to be the Antichrist) Talk about the dark side of the force! There's a serious Darth Vader vibe going on there.

Merlin is also an outsider, advised by an elderly wisdom figure (Bleys), who constantly has internal struggles (to not become the Antichrist), ends up fighting evil, has a variety of magic devices, and so on.

Of course, the details are drastically different in each case. But so are the details between Harry and Luke. They aren't that closely related--but both are related to the literary tradition that preceded them. George Lucas said exactly that about Luke, and JK Rowling may have about Harry. But in any case, her debt to earlier literature is clear in the names she uses (like Hermione and Minerva), as well as references to Merlin.


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Hopscotch

Re: Potter & Wars the same?
« Reply #4 on: March 15, 2023, 12:19:44 AM »
Doesn’t that describe most classic Westerns, too?  The lonely (High Plains Drifter) and/or alienated hero (High Noon) rides into town w/his magic weapon (Wanted Dead or Alive) to put the world right (Shane) often over the objections of the craven locals (The Chase) despite his own internal struggles (The Hanging Tree, Old Henry) and often with the help of a good woman’s love (his Merlin as in Giant) or a superior Merlinic hero (The Gunfighter) and then rides out still alone (perhaps to set right some other world, say, Tatooine)?  It’s all one of those archetype things.
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Bill Hiatt

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Re: Potter & Wars the same?
« Reply #5 on: March 15, 2023, 05:31:28 AM »
On the most basic level Luke Skywalker and Harry Potter are both versions of "the hero with a thousand faces".

And Star Wars and the first Harry Potter story are versions of "the hero's journey".

But there are still a lot of similar details.

One thing that is not mentioned is that "lord" Vader is Luke's father, and "lord" Voldemort has a piece of his soul inside of Harry.

And there's more:

https://www.romper.com/p/13-ways-luke-skywalker-harry-potter-are-basically-the-same-person-2922

https://www.mugglenet.com/2013/11/similarities-between-harry-potter-and-luke-skywalker/
Undeniably, there are similarities. There are also a lot of differences. The second link in particular seems to be finding similarities where I would look at the same set of facts and see differences.

For instance, #4 deals with the two fathers. But one is truly dead, while the other is transformed--and not really someone in whose footsteps Luke would want to follow if he knew the truth. The two fathers are more different than they are alike.

#5 compares villains on the basis that they started out better and became evil. But Anakin becomes evil mostly through personal trauma as a young adult. Voldemort becomes evil at least in part because of much earlier child abuse and disgrace over his muggle blood. Their situations are probably more different than alike. Also, Voldemort becomes the Big Bad. Anakin becomes the henchman for the Big Bad.

#9 compares them because their best friends are a guy and a girl. Anyone with two close friends has a 33% chance that one will be a guy and one a girl.

#11 compares the visible marks of the conflict of evil. But Harry gets his scar as a baby, when he isn't an active combatant, and Luke gets his mechanical hand much later, when he is an active combatant, and the mark is much more obvious. A scar is significantly different from a lost hand.

#12 compares them because they both fly, but a broomstick is rather different from an X-Wing.

#14 compares the relatives who raise them, but the Dursleys are far worse than Luke's aunt and uncle by any reasonable standard.

#16 compares the two "frozen" friends--neither of which is actually frozen. Hermione is petrified, while Han is encased in carbonite. Again, more different than similar.

You see where I'm going with this. The list is padded with a lot of things that superficial similarities that actually reveal sizable differences and with some that are coincidental.


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LilyBLily

Re: Potter & Wars the same?
« Reply #6 on: March 15, 2023, 12:02:19 PM »
I've only read the first Harry Potter book and seen that movie, but that story bears a very strong resemblance to other chapter books for that age group, down to the extended description of an important sports event at which the hero's side is the underdog. There are whole series of books involving such sports confrontations.

What happens next in the Harry Potter series may diverge from that pattern, but there it is.
 

Bill Hiatt

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Re: Potter & Wars the same?
« Reply #7 on: March 16, 2023, 12:39:18 AM »
Quote
2 articles and 2 videos are a lot of evidence.

You only addressed the second article.
That's partially because I had limited time. I actually looked at all four, and there are certainly a lot of similarities in the arguments, so they aren't really four separate pieces of evidence all pointing in the same direction. They may be four people each independently coming up with similar ideas, or there may be a certain amount of influence. Either way, most of the arguments are repetitive.

We agree that there are similarities and differences. Our only point of disagreement is your statements about various characters being basically the same person. The only way you get to a conclusion like that is by ignoring the substantial differences. That kind of analysis is too reductive for my taste. Characters can be related without being functionally the same. These characters are definitely related, just not close enough to be considered clones.

If you want an example of what I would consider a clone, take the two Netflix series, Elite and Cla$$, which are set in different societies (Spain and India, respectively) but which have nearly identical plots. I started watching Cla$$ and said to myself, "Wait a minute! I've seen this before." I looked up Cla$$ online, and sure enough, it's described as an adaptation of Elite. But it's pretty close to translating the script from one into another language.

In both, a public school in a relatively poor area is destroyed. A philanthropist with suspect motivations offers a few gifted public school students a full scholarship to the best private school in the area (Las Encinas and Hampton International School, respectively). The three students are a serious scholar (though the Cla$$ version is meeker and less sexualized), an underachieving class clown who is a close friend of the serious student, and a brilliant Muslim girl. The serious scholar has a brother who has just been released from prison. Both brothers are attracted to the daughter of the philanthropist, though in Cla$$ only the older brother actually has sex with her. The philanthropist's son and his friends incessantly bully the newbies, though the son finds himself attracted to the Muslim girl and protective of her. When she is given illegal drugs without her knowledge, he rescues her. While she's recovering at his place, she wades out into his pool fully dressed.

It's apparent at the point I stopped watching Cla$$ that the philanthropist's daughter will be murdered, and that two brother will both be suspects, just as in Elite.

It just goes on that way. The Indian version has the serious student have issues related to his caste, there's a little less sex, and more about police corruptions. But the characters are all basically the same aside from that, and certainly, they do the same things. If you've seen one, there really isn't much point in watching the other.

In that case, it's legitimate to say that the characters are basically the same people. And there is the added evidence of one series being explicitly labeled as an adaptation of the other. But in the case of Luke and Harry, the characters are not anywhere nearly that similar, and JK Rowling has never claimed that she was adapting Star Wars.
 


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Jeff Tanyard

Re: Potter & Wars the same?
« Reply #8 on: March 16, 2023, 03:57:28 PM »
Both franchises feature music by John Williams.  I suspect much of the similarity people see in the two is due to the subconscious influence of the music.  The same composer is telling us, musically speaking, how to "feel" in each scene.  In Williams's particular case, his talent is in amplifying the dominant emotion that is already portrayed visually in the scene, so he's not "telling" us how to feel so much as he's affirming how we feel.

Would people still be making comparisons to Luke and Harry if the latter's movies featured a rap soundtrack instead of an orchestral score?  I don't know the answer to that, but I think it's an interesting question.  I think we underestimate the subconscious effects of movie scores on perception of story.
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Bill Hiatt

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Re: Potter & Wars the same?
« Reply #9 on: March 16, 2023, 11:32:49 PM »
Interesting point. I hadn't considered the musical influences.

I think there may also be something to the idea that the two franchises aim at similar age groups (a little younger for the early Potter books). And although they are technically different genres, Star Wars involves enough mystic material, particularly with the Force, that it's a lot closer to the border between science fiction and fantasy. Overlap in the fandoms could easily lead to a desire to find ways to connect them.

A brief glance at the internet reveals at least some overlap, with areas where people do things like sort Star Wars characters into Hogwarts houses. Only people interested in both would be interested in such a process.


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TimothyEllis

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Re: Potter & Wars the same?
« Reply #10 on: March 16, 2023, 11:35:53 PM »
A brief glance at the internet reveals at least some overlap, with areas where people do things like sort Star Wars characters into Hogwarts houses. Only people interested in both would be interested in such a process.

 :eek: :icon_eek: :shrug :dizzy

That strikes me as being a bit obsessive.
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Lorri Moulton

Re: Potter & Wars the same?
« Reply #11 on: March 17, 2023, 03:58:39 AM »
I don't remember Ron having a Millennium Falcon. 

And....no.


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TimothyEllis

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Re: Potter & Wars the same?
« Reply #12 on: March 17, 2023, 11:33:03 AM »
I don't remember Ron having a Millennium Falcon. 

He had the deluminator, that took him where he needed to go. Same thing.  :catrun

 :icon_rofl: Yeah, no.  :banana-riding-llama-smiley-em
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Bill Hiatt

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Re: Potter & Wars the same?
« Reply #13 on: March 18, 2023, 12:39:02 AM »
In some ways, this is a glass-half-empty-or-half-full situation. It's certainly possible to find similarities. It's equally possible to find differences. I suppose which we emphasize is a matter of individual taste.

If I were writing analytical essays about the franchises, I'd certainly note the Joseph Campbell ideas that Cabbages and Kings uses. George Lucas expressly acknowledges his debt to concepts like the hero's journey.

With Rowling, the issue is more complicated. A lot has been written about her influences, for example, https://ew.com/article/2007/07/27/jk-rowlings-literary-influences/ and, much more extensively, https://www.hogwartsprofessor.com/rowlings-admitted-literary-influences/ In particular, the second one notes literary influences based on Rowling's own statements. She's not shy about saying what inspired her. But on Star Wars, she is silent.

Books she does in some ways acknowledge as inspiration, directly or indirectly, include ancient Greek work like Homer (Iliad and Odyssey), Arthurian literature (including modern ones like T. H. White's), Shakespeare, Dickens, and Tolkien (whose works are also often compared with Rowling's) provide more than enough sources for possible points of resemblance with Star Wars.


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Jeff Tanyard

Re: Potter & Wars the same?
« Reply #14 on: March 19, 2023, 07:22:43 AM »
George Lucas expressly acknowledges his debt to concepts like the hero's journey.


I wouldn't put much stock in anything Lucas says about the subject.  Just as he relentlessly re-edits every new version of the movies, notoriously saddling us with absurd "Who shot first, Han or Greedo?" debates, so is he also notorious for continuously ret-conning the story behind the story.

I recommend reading Kaminski's book on the subject if you haven't already.

https://www.amazon.com/Secret-History-Star-Wars/dp/0978465237
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Bill Hiatt

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Re: Potter & Wars the same?
« Reply #15 on: March 19, 2023, 11:45:31 PM »
I'll check it out when I get the chance. Thanks!


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She-la-te-da

Re: Potter & Wars the same?
« Reply #16 on: March 23, 2023, 12:19:08 AM »
So, discussion of the Hero's Journey stimulated by click bait articles?

I didn't see the original beginning, and won't click on any of the links, but this is my general feeling from reading this thread. I don't see much alike outside of some basic tropes.
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