Author Topic: It could be worse...you could be an Amazon vendor...  (Read 4385 times)

David VanDyke

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It could be worse...you could be an Amazon vendor...
« on: December 21, 2018, 11:10:23 AM »
https://www.theverge.com/2018/12/19/18140799/amazon-marketplace-scams-seller-court-appeal-reinstatement

In a way, most of us--even those making a living--are too small to invite all the dirty tricks. Imagine if you had a multimillion-dollar business.
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Tom Wood

Re: It could be worse...you could be an Amazon vendor...
« Reply #1 on: December 21, 2018, 11:28:04 AM »
Thank you for posting this. One of my motivations for joining IBPA and ALLI is to have an organization that I can turn to and ask for help if/when this (or any similar dirty tricks) happens. Do those organizations help their members when it happens?
« Last Edit: December 21, 2018, 11:40:46 AM by Tom Wood »
 

LilyBLily

Re: It could be worse...you could be an Amazon vendor...
« Reply #2 on: December 21, 2018, 12:33:39 PM »
RWA has.
 

Anarchist

Re: It could be worse...you could be an Amazon vendor...
« Reply #3 on: December 21, 2018, 12:51:07 PM »
I've been hearing about this for awhile. I know some high-volume sellers on Amazon, and the competitive shenanigans they've shared with me are wild.

It reminds me of the bad ol' days of search marketing. Negative SEO was used by the unscrupulous. If a competitor's site posed a constant obstacle (i.e. it ranked above you for every high-traffic term in your niche), you could buy thousands of links from "PPC" sites (pills, porn, and casinos). Google's algo at the time would punish the receiving site, deranking it or depending on its link profile blow 'em out of the index.

Nefarious goings-on arise wherever there's a potential for substantial revenue.
"The first lesson of economics is scarcity: there is never enough of anything to fully satisfy all those who want it. The first lesson of politics is to disregard the first lesson of economics." - Thomas Sowell

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LilyBLily

Re: It could be worse...you could be an Amazon vendor...
« Reply #4 on: December 21, 2018, 02:34:58 PM »
The article is interesting in that it lists more than one person/company who (for money) legitimately will assist you in getting your account reopened or whatever fixed. The lawyer posted on KB recently and was treated with great suspicion.

It's a long article, but worth reading to the end because it explains how the Amazon employees are treated like many a CSR or tech support person and expected to produce (in this case negative) results by the minute by choosing canned responses. And these poor b**tards often ask for more info repeatedly just to produce the required results and get you off their necks. Which explains the irrational runarounds innocent authors have gotten. (It also suggests to me that a very short reply might get a better answer than a long one, but maybe not.) 

The allegations of bribing Amazon employees to make the large seller problems go away are interesting, too. I'm willing to bet that they're true, despite Amazon's denials. Few companies will admit to catching employees doing this kind of thing, but it happens, and they do get caught. And then quietly fired or retired with an ironclad nondisclosure.

Threatening Chinese emails, too. Lovely.
 

ilamont

Re: It could be worse...you could be an Amazon vendor...
« Reply #5 on: December 21, 2018, 11:16:38 PM »
Wow. I'm an Amazon seller and some of these tactics described in the article are frightening. I mean, messing with someone's USPTO filings or trademarking someone else's username to take over a brand? That's evil.

Regarding the question about IBPA: For some problems with a vendor, IBPA can try to reach out (see IBPA's Dispute Resolution program), and on rare occasions elevate unfair policies to an advocacy campaign, but some vendors don't respond or don't care. Amazon falls into this camp, as do many other entities with huge power over data, marketplaces, etc. They are not sympathetic to authors', publishers', or sellers' complaints.     
« Last Edit: December 22, 2018, 04:53:20 AM by ilamont »
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Becca Mills

Re: It could be worse...you could be an Amazon vendor...
« Reply #6 on: December 22, 2018, 04:02:23 AM »
I found that sort of terrifying to read.

Sigh. I'm old enough and have been perpetually connected to universities, so I got on the internet pretty early, before the web was a thing. I swallowed the whole shtick, hook, line, and sinker. Information was going to be free, leading to smarter, better educated populations. People from all over the world were going to connect with one another, fostering mutual empathy and understanding. That kind of thinking feels naive now. Sure, some people take the opportunity to broaden and educate themselves, but many apparently just see an opportunity for safe evildoing.

Information moves freely, but it's now moving largely within corporate entities like Amazon and Facebook, where it seemingly cannot be regulated or monitored from outside. All the shenanigans the article describes seem like they're about physical products, because that's what's being sold, but the actual malfeasance is information based. People getting into others' accounts, taking over their brands, using trademark and copyright claims as weapons, putting fake reviews on competitors ... it's all digital information being submitted to Amazon and then flowing around behind its closed doors, where no one can see who's accessing it or what's being done about it, and there's no regulatory pressure to be applied because, as a retailer, Amazon has the absolute right to sell what it wants to sell and not sell what it doesn't want to sell. Which would be fine except that, as the article said, Amazon "has become the market itself."

As indie authors, we're definitely vulnerable to this sort of thing. No, we won't get hit by someone from another nation who wants to sell knock-off plastic products, and it helps that our readers can know us and build loyalty to as individuals, at least to some degree. But we can be targeted all the same. Some of you may remember that copyright scam I suffered a few years back, which was this exact sort of thing. Fortunately, it happened when Amazon was smaller and easier to deal with. Nowadays, I suspect I'd have to go to court.
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Post-Crisis D

Re: It could be worse...you could be an Amazon vendor...
« Reply #7 on: December 22, 2018, 05:26:27 AM »
Sigh. I'm old enough and have been perpetually connected to universities, so I got on the internet pretty early, before the web was a thing. I swallowed the whole shtick, hook, line, and sinker. Information was going to be free, leading to smarter, better educated populations. People from all over the world were going to connect with one another, fostering mutual empathy and understanding. That kind of thinking feels naive now.

I know how you feel.  I also started an online service and I for some people mine may have been their first, or one of their first, gateways to the Internet.  And it was a different world back then.  It was going to bring people closer together and it was going to be harder for politicians to manipulate us because we could talk directly with people from around the world.  People seemed nicer back then too.  You asked a question and someone would answer.  There were heated arguments, of course, but what you'd classify as "heated" then could pass for a casual conversation now.

Now, the Internet is like a cesspool.  It's like the worst of everything.  Back in the day, the big concern was that kids might see porn.  Now it's like porn is the least of concerns.  I am often left wondering what the heck happened?  Where did things go so very, very wrong?


. . . because, as a retailer, Amazon has the absolute right to sell what it wants to sell and not sell what it doesn't want to sell. Which would be fine except that, as the article said, Amazon "has become the market itself."

I don't think it would be so bad if Google was a better search engine.  It used to be that if you had a website, you could compete on fairly equal footing with larger companies.  You still had a good chance of being found.  But now huge companies dominate or the ones that can afford to spend huge amounts on Google ads.  Plus Google prioritizes its own services.  And Google makes demands for what websites should have or do.  You need to have https, even if you don't sell anything or collect personal information on your site.  No https and you get ranked lower.  And all sorts of other things Google insists on, regardless of whether it's actually beneficial or not.  People spend more time trying to do what Google wants than actually building a better site.  If Google wants it, you must do it or be penalized.  Then again, you're going to end up buried in the search results anyway if you're not spending all your money on Google ads.  Anyway, anymore you don't find the most relevant results on Google anymore but only those results that are paid for or conform to Herr Google's latest decrees.

And Facebook is little different.  You build a following on Facebook then you have to pay Facebook to reach all your followers.  And so on.

If Google and Facebook magically 404'd tomorrow, that'd be one of the best things to have happened for the Internet since the introduction of domain names.
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Shoe

Re: It could be worse...you could be an Amazon vendor...
« Reply #8 on: December 22, 2018, 07:16:50 AM »
I am often left wondering what the heck happened?  Where did things go so very, very wrong?

The same old story. Greed and the lowest common denominator collided. The same thing that happened to television. The Luddites (aka "deplorables") won. But not everything. There's still great content out there, but the internet I inhabit is most likely off the radar of the majority of users.

Google is a bully, but maybe it's for the best. I too used to run websites and SEO at the time was all about gaming Google (Get more inbound links! Get better links! Make gateways!). I remember waiting a month for Google to refresh its index (versus every single second today). It was brutal.

I don't know--would we be better off if Alta Vista was still around? Lycos? Excite? Does anyone even use Yahoo (I actually think Google now powers their searches). If Google Search went away I'd be fairly upset.
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David VanDyke

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Re: It could be worse...you could be an Amazon vendor...
« Reply #9 on: December 22, 2018, 08:29:25 AM »
  Where did things go so very, very wrong?



Lack of consequences, pure and simple. Suddenly, those without self-discipline or internal character didn't get the sh*t beat out of them or ostracized when they spewed their garbage. Walking away didn't end their trollish arguments, as the argument was always there (and possibly involving hundreds of people) the next day, and the next., waiting to be re-ignited. Every lunatic conspiracy theorist believing "the end is near" or "if we could just get rid of those people, everything would be fine" could find a niche with other equally crazy people and reinforce each other's fringe ideas without any sort of moderation, radicalizing each other (no matter what the political label you put on it) away from reality.

It's the virtual version of the North American Wild West, which was home to all sorts of criminals and crazy cults and social movements unwelcome in their respective civilizations.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2018, 08:31:46 AM by David VanDyke »
Never listen to people with no skin in the game.

I'm a lucky guy. I find the harder I work, the luckier I am.

Those who prefer their English sloppy have only themselves to thank if the advertisement writer uses his mastery of the vocabulary and syntax to mislead their weak minds.

~ Dorothy L. Sayers
 

Becca Mills

Re: It could be worse...you could be an Amazon vendor...
« Reply #10 on: December 22, 2018, 10:31:00 AM »
It's the virtual version of the North American Wild West, which was home to all sorts of criminals and crazy cults and social movements unwelcome in their respective civilizations.

That metaphor occurred to me too, but in a way, it's worse than utter lawlessness, as there are a few powerful laws that *do* apply and have been weaponized. It's like the worst of both worlds: utter lack of regulation + gross regulatory overreach.

I know how you feel.  I also started an online service and I for some people mine may have been their first, or one of their first, gateways to the Internet.  And it was a different world back then.  It was going to bring people closer together and it was going to be harder for politicians to manipulate us because we could talk directly with people from around the world.  People seemed nicer back then too.  You asked a question and someone would answer.  There were heated arguments, of course, but what you'd classify as "heated" then could pass for a casual conversation now.

Now, the Internet is like a cesspool.  It's like the worst of everything.  Back in the day, the big concern was that kids might see porn.  Now it's like porn is the least of concerns.  I am often left wondering what the heck happened?  Where did things go so very, very wrong?

I think very early users of internet were a somewhat homogeneous subset of people, albeit from around the world. They tended to be well educated (sometimes autodidacts, but that's no different), reasonably financially stable or headed that way (students, etc.) because computers were hella pricey then, and embedded in nerd culture. Those shared traits helped create a culture whose norms most followed. But when everyone else showed up, the internet became a reflection of the whole species, and our worst traits found ways to amplify themselves. There are all kinds of "gatekeepers" that don't work online, and it turns out we may do better with gatekeepers in some areas.

I don't think it would be so bad if Google was a better search engine.  It used to be that if you had a website, you could compete on fairly equal footing with larger companies.  You still had a good chance of being found.  But now huge companies dominate or the ones that can afford to spend huge amounts on Google ads.  Plus Google prioritizes its own services.  And Google makes demands for what websites should have or do.  You need to have https, even if you don't sell anything or collect personal information on your site.  No https and you get ranked lower.  And all sorts of other things Google insists on, regardless of whether it's actually beneficial or not.  People spend more time trying to do what Google wants than actually building a better site.  If Google wants it, you must do it or be penalized.  Then again, you're going to end up buried in the search results anyway if you're not spending all your money on Google ads.  Anyway, anymore you don't find the most relevant results on Google anymore but only those results that are paid for or conform to Herr Google's latest decrees.

And Facebook is little different.  You build a following on Facebook then you have to pay Facebook to reach all your followers.  And so on.

If Google and Facebook magically 404'd tomorrow, that'd be one of the best things to have happened for the Internet since the introduction of domain names.

I agree there's too much concentration of power in these entities, but honestly, small e-storefronts would have an awfully hard time competing with Amazon now, even without the Google difficulties. Free shipping would not be affordable for most of them, and it's absolutely expected at this point. And the more embedded people are in the Amazon ecosystem, the less they even think to using Google for shopping. Amazon is automatic.

Lol ... maybe all those cyberpunk dystopias from the '80s are coming true.
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Jan Hurst-Nicholson

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Re: It could be worse...you could be an Amazon vendor...
« Reply #11 on: December 25, 2018, 01:16:13 AM »
This is frightening  :evil2:

At one time I sold collectable stuff on eBay and I thought that was bad. People would buy say, a camera, swap the part they needed for their own broken camera and then return the bought camera claiming it didn't work. PayPal would return their money.
I also heard of a woman buying a dress for an important occasion. It arrived on the Friday and the buyer declared herself delighted. However, on the Monday she returned it as 'not suitable'. PayPal returned her money.  :icon_rolleyes:

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guest1038

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Re: It could be worse...you could be an Amazon vendor...
« Reply #12 on: December 25, 2018, 09:49:20 AM »
Amazon's just too big.

I won't pretend I know how you fix it. But, I do think there seems to be too much government involved in certain areas of the economy and not enough in others, as someone else alluded to above. Well-intentioned or not, so many regulatory schemes go awry. Figuring out where to apply certain pieces of legislation and where to abolish others...kinda the whole ballgame, isn't it? It ain't easy.

I like the idea of a vast playing field full of smaller companies all trying to out-compete one another as opposed to this protected system of constant consolidation, huge companies grabbing more and more market share by buying up the smaller ones only to then be protected by regulation or even subsidized by government outright.

Again, no idea how you fix it as it's obviously a pretty complex issue. There might be credence to the idea of smaller government generally, or government of a similar size to the current, but applied in much different ways. The permutations are nearly infinite and form the basis of a lot of what people argue about on CNN panels. It's the backdrop to what has essentially become team sports. What do you do?

I think I understand some of the opposing argument against the idea of cutting government protection for the big multinationals, i.e. those big companies employ millions, which contributes to the tax base, infrastructure, etc. But, I still prefer the idea of an economy of millions of smaller businesses as opposed to handfuls of larger ones. Would it actually be better for the economy and for people in general? No idea, but I like to think so.

You do run into the issue of growth, though. As in: it would likely be folly to put a cap on how big a business can grow, say if you're a small business owner who's doing well and keeps rightfully expanding because of your superior product/service. But, maybe the better idea would be to remove government protection or subsidies for big businesses which might allow for more smaller entrants to take chunks out of the bigger players through their aforementioned superior product/service.

I don't know if there are too many onerous barriers for smaller players to grab market share from the Amazons of the world. Someone else can tell me if that's the case. Someone reading this might say "well, duh, of course this is the case!", but I don't want to say that it's so without knowing definitively. I do admit it's my opinion that it's true, but just because I think it doesn't make it so. Someone here can correct me if I'm wrong.

If those barriers do exist, however, well - call me Captain Obvious - but, that's a problem. And it might be a large contributing factor to what's allowed the horror stories outlined in that article that DVD posted to occur.

Meanwhile, where are all the smart people we need to fix this? I guess instead of entering public office, many/most of them are engaged in figuring out how to join the Amazons of the world and copy that model in order to become immensely rich. Then they go into government as "regulators" after the fact. Interesting how those "regulations" turn out too.  :icon_rolleyes:

So, it's a recognition that in the current climate you can't beat 'em, so you've gotta join 'em. However wrong-headed or backward that mentality might be. It seems like a cycle that feeds on itself...and on the rest of us too. What do you do?
 

Bill Hiatt

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Re: It could be worse...you could be an Amazon vendor...
« Reply #13 on: December 26, 2018, 09:24:50 AM »
The most onerous barrier I'm aware to smaller players trying to grab a piece of Amazon's pie is the head start Amazon has. For new start-ups, it's like starting a race in the middle. Amazon has name recognition, and people are much more willing to give their credit card numbers to companies they know. Amazon also doesn't have to worry about discoverability because pretty everybody knows about it. A new startup could have a very nice-looking and efficient store--which no one would ever see. In that respect, the barrier to entry is similar to the obstacles a new author faces, except that the competition is fewer in number and much larger in size.

Yes, government regulation can go overboard, but maybe it's time for a little genuine antitrust enforcement. In the long run, that's the only way to maintain lots of smaller companies in competition. What invariably happens otherwise is that the companies that get an edge initial begin to eat smaller companies. At least initially, the owners of those companies may reap rewards from merging with a bigger, more successful company. The consumer doesn't necessarily reap rewards, though, and eventually competition loses out to consolidation.


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David VanDyke

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Re: It could be worse...you could be an Amazon vendor...
« Reply #14 on: December 27, 2018, 03:42:11 AM »
Competition in business means two different basic things: is it a race, or a war?

IMO business-as-a-race is fine--it's the ideal, in fact. May the best company and product win.

Government's role is to make sure it doesn't become a war, with companies attacking each other directly, with cyber-warfare.
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APP

Prime and Punishment
« Reply #15 on: December 27, 2018, 06:21:24 AM »
ETA: Ignore this message. The subject was posted earlier by someone else.

Though this article is not related to selling books, it's a FASCINATING look inside on how Amazon treats their vendors. What an eye-opener. Thankfully, I just write and sell books. I'd hate to be a highly SUCCESSFUL vendor of other products with this type of system in place. But that's the world we live in.

https://www.theverge.com/2018/12/19/18140799/amazon-marketplace-scams-seller-court-appeal-reinstatement
« Last Edit: December 27, 2018, 07:06:23 AM by APP »
 

Tom Wood

Re: Prime and Punishment
« Reply #16 on: December 27, 2018, 06:55:17 AM »
 
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Ash

Re: It could be worse...you could be an Amazon vendor...
« Reply #17 on: January 07, 2019, 09:45:30 PM »
  Where did things go so very, very wrong?



Lack of consequences, pure and simple. Suddenly, those without self-discipline or internal character didn't get the sh*t beat out of them or ostracized when they spewed their garbage. Walking away didn't end their trollish arguments, as the argument was always there (and possibly involving hundreds of people) the next day, and the next., waiting to be re-ignited.

Didn't you just do this in another thread, David? Pot, kettle.
 

David VanDyke

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Re: It could be worse...you could be an Amazon vendor...
« Reply #18 on: January 08, 2019, 04:29:59 AM »
  Where did things go so very, very wrong?



Lack of consequences, pure and simple. Suddenly, those without self-discipline or internal character didn't get the sh*t beat out of them or ostracized when they spewed their garbage. Walking away didn't end their trollish arguments, as the argument was always there (and possibly involving hundreds of people) the next day, and the next., waiting to be re-ignited.

Didn't you just do this in another thread, David? Pot, kettle.

I did, to a certain extent. I'm human. I got my buttons pushed, and I felt justified in responding at the time, but there was no name-calling, none of the usual vicious language, and now, I don't care anymore. It was a contentious debate, but the thing would have burned itself out without any mod intervention IMO.

That's different from what I'm citing in the usual FB situation where people quickly devolve to profanity and name-calling.

It's not a binary situation. It's a matter of degree. A little fire brings light, a little more brings heat, but too much will burn the house down.

Never listen to people with no skin in the game.

I'm a lucky guy. I find the harder I work, the luckier I am.

Those who prefer their English sloppy have only themselves to thank if the advertisement writer uses his mastery of the vocabulary and syntax to mislead their weak minds.

~ Dorothy L. Sayers