I think I might have stumbled on something

[Marti Talbott]

My last book is not getting reviews or selling very well. What's wrong with it? I have no idea, so I tried changing the keywords. Amazon gives us two major genre choices, but what if we only choose one?

Before, I chose historical romance and general romance. On the product page Amazon listed it under historical romance and then historical romance kindle books. Same thing, right?

What I wanted (since it is based on an actual historical event) was to have it listed under history, American, US History, etc., plus suspense, romance and women's fiction. Instead of choosing two major genre, I only chose one (history) using the keywords to add the minor genre. I think it might have worked. This morning the product page lists:

McShane's Bride https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B084H4Z23C/ref=dbs_a_def_rwt_hsch_vapi_tkin_p6_i5

#2407 in Historical Mystery, Thriller & Suspense Fiction
#24259 in Historical Fiction (Books)
#2745 in U.S. Historical Fiction

Whether or not it will help sell the book is anybody's guess, but it is worth a try. I'm really stumped. I've sold several, given away several and put it in KU in the last two months, but only 1 review on Goodreads and 1 on Amazon. Without reviews, it will never take off. It's really put me on a downer since I really loved writing it.

Onward and upward, right? Right!

[Anarchist]

I've sold several, given away several and put it in KU in the last two months, but only 1 review on Goodreads and 1 on Amazon. Without reviews, it will never take off. It's really put me on a downer since I really loved writing it.

To me, it's another argument for creating an ARC list.

[Marti Talbott]

I've sold several, given away several and put it in KU in the last two months, but only 1 review on Goodreads and 1 on Amazon. Without reviews, it will never take off. It's really put me on a downer since I really loved writing it.

To me, it's another argument for creating an ARC list.

What is an ARC list?

[Luke Everhart]

I've sold several, given away several and put it in KU in the last two months, but only 1 review on Goodreads and 1 on Amazon. Without reviews, it will never take off. It's really put me on a downer since I really loved writing it.

To me, it's another argument for creating an ARC list.

What is an ARC list?

Advanced Reader Copies list. You distribute digital copies through things like bookfunnel for early consideration in the hopes that they review your book as a courtesy for the free copy. The "as a courtesy" part being vital. No quid pro quo or the Great and Powerful Zon will be most vexed.

[JRTomlin]

I suppose it must work since thousands of historical romances are listed (incorrectly imo) under historical fiction. I'm sure no one cares that it annoys me to go to the historical fiction lists and find mainly romances.  It must work or people wouldn't do it.

ETA: I do ARCs but can't say I usually get a huge number of reviews. Maybe I don't push them enough.

[Marti Talbott]

I suppose it must work since thousands of historical romances are listed (incorrectly imo) under historical fiction. I'm sure no one cares that it annoys me to go to the historical fiction lists and find mainly romances.  It must work or people wouldn't do it.

ETA: I do ARCs but can't say I usually get a huge number of reviews. Maybe I don't push them enough.

You're right, the whole genre thing is screwed up. Maybe the new manager will get it all straightened out, although they pretty much have to trust the authors to be honest. Or, maybe they could do a better job of actually define what goes where. I'd like to know myself. It's just a guessing game.

[JRTomlin]

I can't blame the authors who do it. They are doing what they need to in order to get their work in front of people who might be interested. As you say, it is Amazon that gives no guidelines or definitions.

[LilyBLily]

Here's what I found some months ago for a Regency romance:


•   #145 in Victorian Historical Romance (Kindle Store)
•   #21 in Tudor Historical Romance
•   #150 in Victorian Historical Romance (Books)

Uh, no. Victoria acceded to the throne 17 years after the Regency ended.

You can use any category you want, apparently. That Regency romance was killing it in Tudor historicals. How? Maybe it had some help from a well-compensated group of buyers and reviewers, because people looking for a Tudor romance certainly would not want it.

[JRTomlin]

I do understand your frustration because I get frustrated too when, as a reader, I go to historical fiction, and as you say, discover that romance writers have 'crapped all over the genre'. They honestly are NOT the same thing. But they are also going by the house rules that say you can put your novel wherever you want to as long as it's not outright pornography (and their definition of that is pretty damned loose in my opinion). So I lay the responsibility on Amazon for in effect having no house rules.

ETA: And I am not saying romance is crap except when it is in somebody else's category. I read and enjoy romances sometimes.

[Marti Talbott]

Here's what I found some months ago for a Regency romance:


•   #145 in Victorian Historical Romance (Kindle Store)
•   #21 in Tudor Historical Romance
•   #150 in Victorian Historical Romance (Books)

Uh, no. Victoria acceded to the throne 17 years after the Regency ended.

You can use any category you want, apparently. That Regency romance was killing it in Tudor historicals. How? Maybe it had some help from a well-compensated group of buyers and reviewers, because people looking for a Tudor romance certainly would not want it.

It's almost as bad as the sponsored ads. I get the same thriller under all my books no matter the genre. Seriously, it's the same book everywhere. I suppose he listed my author name in his ads and that makes it show up. And wow, what he must be paying for ads. I was going to tell you who it was, but of course, now it's gone. 

[Luke Everhart]

I do understand your frustration because I get frustrated too when, as a reader, I go to historical fiction, and as you say, discover that romance writers have 'crapped all over the genre'. They honestly are NOT the same thing. But they are also going by the house rules that say you can put your novel wherever you want to as long as it's not outright pornography (and their definition of that is pretty damned loose in my opinion). So I lay the responsibility on Amazon for in effect having no house rules.

Yep it's true across the store and it sucks. Browsing urban fantasy categories you have to filter through harem, reverse harem, litrpg, magical realism, BBW shifter romance (😳 apparently it's a thing and it's in my urban fantasy categories 🤨), and more. Similar with sword & sorcery.
 

[LilyBLily]

Categories for a Simon & Schuster novel that got a BookBub this week as Historical Fiction and is about the Galveston flood in 1900:

(a Best Seller tag) #1 Best Seller in Comedic Dramas & Plays 

•   #2 in Action & Adventure Romance (Books)
•   #1 in Comedic Dramas & Plays
•   #3 in Western Romance (Kindle Store)

According to the 1-star reviews, the book ends with the deaths of the main characters. That pretty much negates all the listed categories. Also, it's a novel, not a play.

It's clear the trad pubs get to play with categories in ways we don't.

[Marti Talbott]

Categories for a Simon & Schuster novel that got a BookBub this week as Historical Fiction and is about the Galveston flood in 1900:

(a Best Seller tag) #1 Best Seller in Comedic Dramas & Plays 

•   #2 in Action & Adventure Romance (Books)
•   #1 in Comedic Dramas & Plays
•   #3 in Western Romance (Kindle Store)

According to the 1-star reviews, the book ends with the deaths of the main characters. That pretty much negates all the listed categories. Also, it's a novel, not a play.

It's clear the trad pubs get to play with categories in ways we don't.

Wow, that is all screw up.

[JRTomlin]

Categories for a Simon & Schuster novel that got a BookBub this week as Historical Fiction and is about the Galveston flood in 1900:

(a Best Seller tag) #1 Best Seller in Comedic Dramas & Plays 

•   #2 in Action & Adventure Romance (Books)
•   #1 in Comedic Dramas & Plays
•   #3 in Western Romance (Kindle Store)

According to the 1-star reviews, the book ends with the deaths of the main characters. That pretty much negates all the listed categories. Also, it's a novel, not a play.

It's clear the trad pubs get to play with categories in ways we don't.

🤦 It was a hurricane rather than a flood (hurricanes push a sea surge ashore which floods) and the Galveston hurricane of 1900 was one of the worst natural disasters in US history. The death toll may well have been as high as 6,000 people but the author managed to turn it into 'a comedic drama'? Pardon my skepticism. But honestly I have seen indies with categories that are about that screwed up. Amazon does seem to give a flying *mumble* what category novels are shoved into.

[Bill Hiatt]

I don't remember the thread I did this for, but I looked at some trad books and discovered that the categorization was just as odd as in LilyBLily's example. Since I don't think most trad publishers would do that, I assume it's a measure of how glitchy Amazon's system can be.

I also have the same experience with ads that Marti described. Right now, a search for my name brings up a business book, Change-Friendly Leadership. Is this really what readers trying to search the catalog of an urban fantasy author are going to be looking for? Hardly. Amazon has it in the correct categories, too. I'm just baffled. And it shows up there day after day after day.

[Marti Talbott]

I don't remember the thread I did this for, but I looked at some trad books and discovered that the categorization was just as odd as in LilyBLily's example. Since I don't think most trad publishers would do that, I assume it's a measure of how glitchy Amazon's system can be.

I also have the same experience with ads that Marti described. Right now, a search for my name brings up a business book, Change-Friendly Leadership. Is this really what readers trying to search the catalog of an urban fantasy author are going to be looking for? Hardly. Amazon has it in the correct categories, too. I'm just baffled. And it shows up there day after day after day.

Maybe the new manager will get that straightened out. We can hope anyway.

[Bill Hiatt]

I don't remember the thread I did this for, but I looked at some trad books and discovered that the categorization was just as odd as in LilyBLily's example. Since I don't think most trad publishers would do that, I assume it's a measure of how glitchy Amazon's system can be.

I also have the same experience with ads that Marti described. Right now, a search for my name brings up a business book, Change-Friendly Leadership. Is this really what readers trying to search the catalog of an urban fantasy author are going to be looking for? Hardly. Amazon has it in the correct categories, too. I'm just baffled. And it shows up there day after day after day.

Maybe the new manager will get that straightened out. We can hope anyway.

I'm keeping my fingers crossed. A reasonable person who knew anything about publishing could certainly tell something was wrong. I think the obstacle is going to be the number of employee hours needed to correct the problem.

[Marti Talbott]

I don't remember the thread I did this for, but I looked at some trad books and discovered that the categorization was just as odd as in LilyBLily's example. Since I don't think most trad publishers would do that, I assume it's a measure of how glitchy Amazon's system can be.

I also have the same experience with ads that Marti described. Right now, a search for my name brings up a business book, Change-Friendly Leadership. Is this really what readers trying to search the catalog of an urban fantasy author are going to be looking for? Hardly. Amazon has it in the correct categories, too. I'm just baffled. And it shows up there day after day after day.

Maybe the new manager will get that straightened out. We can hope anyway.

I'm keeping my fingers crossed. A reasonable person who knew anything about publishing could certainly tell something was wrong. I think the obstacle is going to be the number of employee hours needed to correct the problem.

Amazon has had people working from home for years. They should know just how to do that much at least. I suppose the problem is in sorting the books. Can we tell from the blurb and the cover what genre a book should be in? Probably not. Interesting problem.

[Bill Hiatt]

I don't remember the thread I did this for, but I looked at some trad books and discovered that the categorization was just as odd as in LilyBLily's example. Since I don't think most trad publishers would do that, I assume it's a measure of how glitchy Amazon's system can be.

I also have the same experience with ads that Marti described. Right now, a search for my name brings up a business book, Change-Friendly Leadership. Is this really what readers trying to search the catalog of an urban fantasy author are going to be looking for? Hardly. Amazon has it in the correct categories, too. I'm just baffled. And it shows up there day after day after day.

Maybe the new manager will get that straightened out. We can hope anyway.

I'm keeping my fingers crossed. A reasonable person who knew anything about publishing could certainly tell something was wrong. I think the obstacle is going to be the number of employee hours needed to correct the problem.

Amazon has had people working from home for years. They should know just how to do that much at least. I suppose the problem is in sorting the books. Can we tell from the blurb and the cover what genre a book should be in? Probably not. Interesting problem.

Yeah, they can do it from home. I was just thinking about how many books there, and how long it would take them to through all of them.

You bring up another good point, though. What system do they use for determining genre accurately?

Going forward, I think control over genre should rest in the hands of authors and publishers initially. If Amazon gets complaints, it can check them out and then maybe pre-screen any of the author's subsequent submissions if they find a problem.

Although some authors miscat on purpose, it's apparent to me that Amazon's system is part of the problem. Just fixing the glitches that get weird categories assigned by the system would be a step in the right direction.

[Marti Talbott]

I don't remember the thread I did this for, but I looked at some trad books and discovered that the categorization was just as odd as in LilyBLily's example. Since I don't think most trad publishers would do that, I assume it's a measure of how glitchy Amazon's system can be.

I also have the same experience with ads that Marti described. Right now, a search for my name brings up a business book, Change-Friendly Leadership. Is this really what readers trying to search the catalog of an urban fantasy author are going to be looking for? Hardly. Amazon has it in the correct categories, too. I'm just baffled. And it shows up there day after day after day.

Maybe the new manager will get that straightened out. We can hope anyway.

I'm keeping my fingers crossed. A reasonable person who knew anything about publishing could certainly tell something was wrong. I think the obstacle is going to be the number of employee hours needed to correct the problem.

Amazon has had people working from home for years. They should know just how to do that much at least. I suppose the problem is in sorting the books. Can we tell from the blurb and the cover what genre a book should be in? Probably not. Interesting problem.

Yeah, they can do it from home. I was just thinking about how many books there, and how long it would take them to through all of them.

You bring up another good point, though. What system do they use for determining genre accurately?

Going forward, I think control over genre should rest in the hands of authors and publishers initially. If Amazon gets complaints, it can check them out and then maybe pre-screen any of the author's subsequent submissions if they find a problem.

Although some authors miscat on purpose, it's apparent to me that Amazon's system is part of the problem. Just fixing the glitches that get weird categories assigned by the system would be a step in the right direction.

In the past they have added a lot of sub-genre that helped a lot. They could add more and make descriptions to make them more specific/understandable.

What if they just made a new regulation stating that authors are advised not to choose unrelated genre and if found out, the book could be suspended until fixed. The same might be applied to AMS ads too. If the rule was standard and if they sent an email notifying authors and publishers alike...
I know, dream on.

[LilyBLily]

If people want to throw money at Amazon to advertise in the "wrong" place, Amazon isn't likely to want to stop them.

Years ago, I talked to a guy running a used bookstore that didn't have any books sorted at all. To find anything, you had to just go through cardboard boxes. He told me that people ended up buying more books because they couldn't go only to a certain shelf to look for a specific book. Some authors may find that miscategorizing results in more sales than otherwise.

[Marti Talbott]

If people want to throw money at Amazon to advertise in the "wrong" place, Amazon isn't likely to want to stop them.

Years ago, I talked to a guy running a used bookstore that didn't have any books sorted at all. To find anything, you had to just go through cardboard boxes. He told me that people ended up buying more books because they couldn't go only to a certain shelf to look for a specific book. Some authors may find that miscategorizing results in more sales than otherwise.

That's always been my problem - being able to tell what I do or don't do that results in more sales. I don't keep the kind of records that would tell me. I don't even know how to set that sort of thing up.

I've always been worried about readers feeling tricked when they discover the book is not at all the kind of book they enjoy reading. But then, if they found that annoying you'd think there would be more complaints. Maybe there are and we just don't hear about it.

[Bill Hiatt]

If people want to throw money at Amazon to advertise in the "wrong" place, Amazon isn't likely to want to stop them.

Years ago, I talked to a guy running a used bookstore that didn't have any books sorted at all. To find anything, you had to just go through cardboard boxes. He told me that people ended up buying more books because they couldn't go only to a certain shelf to look for a specific book. Some authors may find that miscategorizing results in more sales than otherwise.

As a reader of really eclectic tastes, I could see that tactic working on me. When I used to go to bookstores, I'd go through every book in every genre section I liked. I would gladly have plowed through cardboard boxes. But most of the people I know are much more narrow in their reading tastes.

Miscatting is really only a problem if you gets in the way of finding what you're looking for. I know I'm sometimes looking for one thing and persistently getting hit with something else. To me, that spells poor customer experience, which is the one thing that might motivate Amazon to fix the problem. It's also true that Amazon would probably get the same amount of money either way. Amazon is good at spending up that daily budget. The only difference would be where the ad appears. There wouldn't have to be a difference in how much was being spent.

[LilyBLily]

I think Amazon is wrong to put ads in the middle of every page of an author's books, especially when you've entered that author's name specifically in your search. That's almost bait and switch. If you want to see all the books by that author you have to see a ton of ads for books by other authors. Distracting you from your original purpose doesn't seem like the best way to get you to buy--but then again, there's more money in it for Amazon if you click on the Sponsored Ad than if you just click on one of dear old Agatha's titles as planned.

So it's the used bookstore guy's approach--see what else they might pick up while finding what they came for. Grocery stores and the Walmart power aisles use this concept all the time. 

[Marti Talbott]

I think Amazon is wrong to put ads in the middle of every page of an author's books, especially when you've entered that author's name specifically in your search. That's almost bait and switch. If you want to see all the books by that author you have to see a ton of ads for books by other authors. Distracting you from your original purpose doesn't seem like the best way to get you to buy--but then again, there's more money in it for Amazon if you click on the Sponsored Ad than if you just click on one of dear old Agatha's titles as planned.

So it's the used bookstore guy's approach--see what else they might pick up while finding what they came for. Grocery stores and the Walmart power aisles use this concept all the time.

So those are AMS ads? I never look under my name and didn't know those were there. I suppose that happens when we put an author's name in the keywords of our AMs ads? Wow, that's something new to think about. I don't think I've used that feature much.

[LilyBLily]

I've found my ads in the middle of someone's page. Undeservedly so, but there the ad was.

[Marti Talbott]

Finally got three excellent reviews on my new book. I'm so relieved. I'd convinced myself it was just awful and no one was telling me.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B084H4Z23C/ref=dbs_a_def_rwt_hsch_vapi_tkin_p6_i5

[notthatamanda]

Congratulations!