Author Topic: Corona virus was manufactured in China?  (Read 6644 times)

Jan Hurst-Nicholson

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Corona virus was manufactured in China?
« on: April 28, 2020, 01:01:46 AM »
Not sure where to post this, or if it has already been posted. Corona virus was manufactured in China.

https://www.clipper28.com/en/prof-dr-tasuku-honjo-sayscovid-19-is-manufactured-in-china/

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TimothyEllis

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Re: Corona virus was manufactured in China?
« Reply #1 on: April 28, 2020, 01:07:14 AM »
Moved to its own thread.
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notthatamanda

Re: Corona virus was manufactured in China?
« Reply #2 on: April 28, 2020, 01:14:05 AM »
Not sure where to post this, or if it has already been posted. Corona virus was manufactured in China.

https://www.clipper28.com/en/prof-dr-tasuku-honjo-sayscovid-19-is-manufactured-in-china/

That's been discredited.

https://www.newsclick.in/false-quote-suggests-japanese-nobel-laureate-tasuku-honjo-coronavirus-man-made

Shame on whoever took the name of someone whose work won a Nobel Prize to incite whatever the heck they were trying to incite

Edit - whose not who's, duh
« Last Edit: April 28, 2020, 01:27:03 AM by notthatamanda »
 

Luke Everhart

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Re: Corona Virus restrictions overreach? From Lockdown thread.
« Reply #3 on: April 28, 2020, 01:18:04 AM »
Not sure where to post this, or if it has already been posted. Corona virus was manufactured in China.

https://www.clipper28.com/en/prof-dr-tasuku-honjo-sayscovid-19-is-manufactured-in-china/

Personally, I'm going with the bats thing. I simply can't believe it was manufactured.

It's just a novel strain of the coronavirus family. We get these fairly regularly in the common viral families due to antigenic drift.
SARS 2002/2003 was a novel strain of coronavirus and more infectious based on its assigned Rnought value.
MERS 2012/2013 was also a novel strain of coronavirus and vastly more deadly with a 43% case fatality rate.
The common cold is a coronavirus and novel variants of it arise periodically too.

If somebody were going to actually manufacture a virus they could've done a heckuva better job at it. This one isn't anywhere near the most contagious (heck measles has an Rnought of 18 while this one has been assigned between 2 and 2.5) and it's not remotely as lethal as a great many, including its cousin in the coronavirus family, the aforementioned MERS from 2012, with its 43% case fatality rate.

Chowing down on bats and stuff at wet markets is just a bad idea and I'm going to blame nature, gross cultural practices, and the normal shirt happens of life.
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Jan Hurst-Nicholson

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Re: Corona virus was manufactured in China?
« Reply #4 on: April 28, 2020, 02:33:50 AM »
Not sure where to post this, or if it has already been posted. Corona virus was manufactured in China.

https://www.clipper28.com/en/prof-dr-tasuku-honjo-sayscovid-19-is-manufactured-in-china/

That's been discredited.

https://www.newsclick.in/false-quote-suggests-japanese-nobel-laureate-tasuku-honjo-coronavirus-man-made

Shame on whoever took the name of someone whose work won a Nobel Prize to incite whatever the heck they were trying to incite

Edit - whose not who's, duh

Thanks for this. I thought I'd seen something about a **** story, but the link looked pretty genuine. However, I thought I'd post it here before passing it on as someone here would be bound to know the truth   :icon_mrgreen:

Non-fiction, Fiction, family saga, humour, short stories, teen, children's
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lea_owens

Re: Corona virus was manufactured in China?
« Reply #5 on: April 29, 2020, 07:05:57 AM »
There are still scientists who claim it is quite possible that the virus escaped accidentally from the Wuhan lab where they were researching it. Professor Petr Chumakov claims they were doing all sorts of engineering on the virus - not to make a weapon, more likely to create an agent to administer cures for something else. Of course, the Russians do love stirring up conflict between their enemies/frenemies/friends, so a grain of salt is always needed when digesting their news. 

French scientist, Luc Montagnier, a 2008 Nobel Prize winner for his work on HIV,  said “We have arrived at the conclusion that this virus was created," and he accused “molecular biologists” of having inserted DNA sequences from HIV into a coronavirus, “probably” as part of their work to find a vaccine against AIDS. Mind you, he's a controversial figure, so perhaps likes to stir the pot a bit to get people thinking about possibilities.

I am incredibly concerned about the link to serious childhood illnesses in youngsters who only showed mild or no symptoms - the warning from the British medical sector on this is extremely alarming. I don't know if there's any other research in other countries as everyone has focused so much on the respiratory symptoms that show within 14 days rather than the long term health problems of young people who were asymptomatic for the respiratory problems.
 

notthatamanda

Re: Corona virus was manufactured in China?
« Reply #6 on: April 29, 2020, 08:05:47 AM »
There are still scientists who claim it is quite possible that the virus escaped accidentally from the Wuhan lab where they were researching it. Professor Petr Chumakov claims they were doing all sorts of engineering on the virus - not to make a weapon, more likely to create an agent to administer cures for something else. Of course, the Russians do love stirring up conflict between their enemies/frenemies/friends, so a grain of salt is always needed when digesting their news. 

French scientist, Luc Montagnier, a 2008 Nobel Prize winner for his work on HIV,  said “We have arrived at the conclusion that this virus was created," and he accused “molecular biologists” of having inserted DNA sequences from HIV into a coronavirus, “probably” as part of their work to find a vaccine against AIDS. Mind you, he's a controversial figure, so perhaps likes to stir the pot a bit to get people thinking about possibilities.

I am incredibly concerned about the link to serious childhood illnesses in youngsters who only showed mild or no symptoms - the warning from the British medical sector on this is extremely alarming. I don't know if there's any other research in other countries as everyone has focused so much on the respiratory symptoms that show within 14 days rather than the long term health problems of young people who were asymptomatic for the respiratory problems.
Do you have a link about the serious childhood illness? The governor of my state said that just because someone doesn't die from COVID, that is not the end of it. It is a long tough recovery. I heard on the radio in NY they were converting an orthopedic rehab unit to a COVID rehab unit. We just don't know if people are going to have long term or permanent decreased lung capacity from scar tissue in their lungs yet.

As far as a vaccine against AIDS - they have managed AIDS for a while (people say here it's better to get AIDS than Diabetes) and we have ads on TV for drugs that claim to make you test negative and unable to pass the AIDS virus onto anyone else.
 

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Joe Vasicek

Re: Corona virus was manufactured in China?
« Reply #8 on: May 02, 2020, 02:37:55 PM »
Twitter bans Zero Hedge after it posts coronavirus conspiracy theory
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/twitter-bans-zero-hedge-coronavirus-conspiracy-theory/

ZeroHedge: Twitter ban over coronavirus article 'arbitrary and unjustified'
https://www.foxbusiness.com/technology/zerohedge-permanently-suspended-abuse

Facebook Coronavirus ‘Fact Checker’ Worked with Wuhan Virus Lab
https://www.breitbart.com/tech/2020/04/16/facebook-coronavirus-fact-checker-worked-with-wuhan-virus-lab/

Dr. Fauci Backed Controversial Wuhan Lab with Millions of U.S. Dollars for Risky Coronavirus Research
https://www.newsweek.com/dr-fauci-backed-controversial-wuhan-lab-millions-us-dollars-risky-coronavirus-research-1500741

Newsweek Bombshell: Covid-19 Virus Lab-Made? Fauci Connected?
 
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Twolane

Re: Corona virus was manufactured in China?
« Reply #9 on: May 02, 2020, 08:33:31 PM »
I see the batwings are coming out in full force.
 

notthatamanda

Re: Corona virus was manufactured in China?
« Reply #10 on: May 02, 2020, 10:06:23 PM »
Twitter bans Zero Hedge after it posts coronavirus conspiracy theory
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/twitter-bans-zero-hedge-coronavirus-conspiracy-theory/

ZeroHedge: Twitter ban over coronavirus article 'arbitrary and unjustified'
https://www.foxbusiness.com/technology/zerohedge-permanently-suspended-abuse

Facebook Coronavirus ‘Fact Checker’ Worked with Wuhan Virus Lab
https://www.breitbart.com/tech/2020/04/16/facebook-coronavirus-fact-checker-worked-with-wuhan-virus-lab/

Dr. Fauci Backed Controversial Wuhan Lab with Millions of U.S. Dollars for Risky Coronavirus Research
https://www.newsweek.com/dr-fauci-backed-controversial-wuhan-lab-millions-us-dollars-risky-coronavirus-research-1500741

Newsweek Bombshell: Covid-19 Virus Lab-Made? Fauci Connected?

Twitter banned Zero Hedge because (from your link):

Zero Hedge on Friday wrote that Twitter had notified the site that it had violated the social media platform's "rules against abuse and harassment." That followed a report by BuzzFeed that Zero Hedge had shared the identity and personal information — including the email and phone number — of a Chinese researcher it claimed might know about the source of the virus.

Also, this article is from February. Zero Hedge could have expressed its concern about the virus, without targeting an individual for harassment. What else is going to happen when you publish someone's personal information?

« Last Edit: May 02, 2020, 10:48:44 PM by notthatamanda »
 

Maggie Ann

Re: Corona virus was manufactured in China?
« Reply #11 on: May 02, 2020, 10:50:29 PM »
CNBC reports

    Just this week, Missouri filed a lawsuit against the Chinese government over its handling of the coronavirus outbreak, saying China’s response led to devastating economic losses in the state.

    It’s one of several calls for compensation and complaints from places including the U.K., Germany and Australia.

    China has taken an aggressive stance against those complaints.

it has probably been posted previously, but Japan is paying firms to shift out of China.

It will be very interesting to see the outcome and how aggressive China will get in countering these claims..
           
 

Joe Vasicek

Re: Corona virus was manufactured in China?
« Reply #12 on: May 03, 2020, 04:53:15 AM »
Twitter banned Zero Hedge because (from your link):

Zero Hedge on Friday wrote that Twitter had notified the site that it had violated the social media platform's "rules against abuse and harassment." That followed a report by BuzzFeed that Zero Hedge had shared the identity and personal information — including the email and phone number — of a Chinese researcher it claimed might know about the source of the virus.

Also, this article is from February. Zero Hedge could have expressed its concern about the virus, without targeting an individual for harassment. What else is going to happen when you publish someone's personal information?

They lied. Shocker, I know.

Zero Hedge did not violate Twitter's rules against abuse and harassment. In February, they posted an article speculating whether the Wuhan Institute of Virology was the possible source of the Covid-19 virus. The article contained contact information for a Chinese doctor that was publicly available, and Twitter used that to claim that Zero Hedge doxxed the doctor. But the contact information was publicly available, so it wasn't.

Twitter was just looking for an excuse to arbitrarily ban Zero Hedge from its platform, much as Facebook has arbitrarily banned people and news stories from its platform. Lo and behold, Facebook's chief "fact checker" involved with shaping the platform's publisher's ban policy regarding Covid-19 is herself an employee of the Wuhan Institute of Virology. Conflict of interest much?

But it gets better, because Doctor Fauci's NIH has been funding the Wuhan Institute of Virology for the past decade, to the tune of millions of dollars. Also, it appears that the receptors on the SARS-COV-2 virus that make it so dangerous are not naturally occuring, but the result of gene-splicing or other human bio-engineering.

The species of bat that the SARS-COV-2 virus originated in is not ingigenous to Wuhan province, but lives nearly a thousand miles away. The odds that this particular bat was being sold in the wet market are thus very small. HOWEVER, we do know that the Wuhan Institute of Virology was experimenting on this particular species of bat, SPECIFICALLY for coronavirus research.

Some people believe that the purpose of this research was to create a bioweapon. While I can't rule that out entirely, I personally believe it's more likely that they were trying to create an AIDS vaccine, and that the virus escaped from their lab due to piss-poor safety protocols, which critics of the Wuhan Institute of Virology have brought up numerous times.

But the ultimate point is this: don't believe a damned thing that's being promoted by Facebook, Twitter, YouTube, or Google because these Silicon Valley platforms publishers have proven conflicts of interest and are actively pushing a narrative that runs contrary to what we already know.
 

Joe Vasicek

Re: Corona virus was manufactured in China?
« Reply #13 on: May 03, 2020, 04:55:51 AM »
CNBC reports

    Just this week, Missouri filed a lawsuit against the Chinese government over its handling of the coronavirus outbreak, saying China’s response led to devastating economic losses in the state.

    It’s one of several calls for compensation and complaints from places including the U.K., Germany and Australia.

    China has taken an aggressive stance against those complaints.

it has probably been posted previously, but Japan is paying firms to shift out of China.

It will be very interesting to see the outcome and how aggressive China will get in countering these claims..

The United States is allowing private citizens to sue China to give them a justification for cancelling the US debt that China owns. The US courts will almost certainly rule in favor of the plaintiffs, and when the Chinese government refuses to pay, the US will cancel the debt in the amount that its courts say China owes.
 

Alec Hutson

Re: Corona virus was manufactured in China?
« Reply #14 on: May 03, 2020, 10:28:14 AM »

The United States is allowing private citizens to sue China to give them a justification for cancelling the US debt that China owns. The US courts will almost certainly rule in favor of the plaintiffs, and when the Chinese government refuses to pay, the US will cancel the debt in the amount that its courts say China owes.

You cannot sue a foreign government. There is an actual act - the Foreign Sovereigns Immunity Act - which explicitly forbids this except in cases of terrorism. The Missouri case will be quickly dismissed.

Legal Eagle did a video on it.



Or you can read about it here:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2020/04/29/can-us-sue-china-covid-19-damages-not-really-this-could-quickly-backfire/

"Efforts to use U.S. courts to hold China accountable for coronavirus-related harms are legally flawed and politically fraught. U.S. law — following international law — generally grants foreign states immunity. "


Alec Hutson
 

Joe Vasicek

Re: Corona virus was manufactured in China?
« Reply #15 on: May 03, 2020, 12:28:58 PM »
You cannot sue a foreign government.

For now.

What I should have said is that the US is moving to allow private citizens (or states, apparently) to sue China in order to justify cancelling the US debt held by the Chinese. Trump has already said that he is considering a nullification of the Foreign Sovereign Immunities Act, which would allow the lawsuit to move forward. Most likely, he needs Congress to pass that nullification, but I doubt the Democrats are going to give him much pushback. The blue states are the ones that are most hardest hit.

I don't think this lawsuit will be dismissed so quickly. With Trump giving it a tacit-green light, I suspect this is the first wave of a massive legal and financial assault on the Chinese Communist regime.

https://lawandcrime.com/high-profile/trump-administration-considers-stripping-china-of-sovereign-immunity-over-coronavirus-response-report/
 

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Re: Corona virus was manufactured in China?
« Reply #16 on: May 03, 2020, 12:37:15 PM »
I don't think this lawsuit will be dismissed so quickly. With Trump giving it a tacit-green light, I suspect this is the first wave of a massive legal and financial assault on the Chinese Communist regime.

China is going to have to come to grips with reality.

Either they pay for letting something like this get loose in the world, by failing to lock their own country down at the onset of the outbreak, or they face economic ruin next time it happens by the rest of the world locking them down from the outside.

The world needs to come to terms with the fact that neither is going to happen easily, and they either get together to enforce a lockdown on any country with zero notice, or they accept that economic instability is here to stay because every couple of yeas, a new one of these will get out.

China has to understand that being the manufacturing hub of the world has a price, and that price includes paying for what they let loose, or having their distribution network terminated the moment one does. And quite probably with a lot of false alarms as well.
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Alec Hutson

Re: Corona virus was manufactured in China?
« Reply #17 on: May 03, 2020, 12:38:03 PM »
You cannot sue a foreign government.

For now.

What I should have said is that the US is moving to allow private citizens (or states, apparently) to sue China in order to justify cancelling the US debt held by the Chinese. Trump has already said that he is considering a nullification of the Foreign Sovereign Immunities Act, which would allow the lawsuit to move forward. Most likely, he needs Congress to pass that nullification, but I doubt the Democrats are going to give him much pushback. The blue states are the ones that are most hardest hit.

I don't think this lawsuit will be dismissed so quickly. With Trump giving it a tacit-green light, I suspect this is the first wave of a massive legal and financial assault on the Chinese Communist regime.

https://lawandcrime.com/high-profile/trump-administration-considers-stripping-china-of-sovereign-immunity-over-coronavirus-response-report/

That won't happen. Trump may even try and support such a measure, but he's an idiot and doesn't have the faintest clue about what is and is not possible. The US 'cancelling' the debt owed to China would be a default on the US treasury bonds they've sold, and it would cause seismic shocks to the world financial system. The US dollar would no longer be seen as the world's safe haven asset, which is the greatest advantage the US enjoys in the global economy. Simply put, defaulting on our obligation would be the dumbest thing America could possibly do, and there is exactly 0% chance it ever happens.

 https://www.politico.com/newsletters/morning-money/2020/05/01/why-we-cant-cancel-us-debt-held-by-china-787277

"It should go without saying — but we suppose it has to be said — that any such move would essentially explode global financial markets. The Chinese own around $1 trillion in U.S. Treasury securities. They along with the Japanese and many other nations fund our debt and deficits. U.S. Treasury bills and the dollar underpin global financial markets. And the full faith and credit of the U.S. government to meet all its debt obligations is the main reason this is possible.

Any move to “cancel” debt held by China — i.e. default on it — would destroy the full faith and credit of the U.S., send U.S. interest rates soaring and could ignite a global financial catastrophe. So when MM asked top White House economic officials about the suggestion, they were lightning fast to deny it, replying within moments, which as any reporter knows is not always the case.

Senior adviser Kevin Hassett texted: “False story. We would never even entertain a default on any U.S. debt.”

NEC Director Larry Kudlow texted: “Absolutely not. Full faith & credit of US debt is sacrosanct. And so is dependable currency as world’s reserve currency. Period. Full stop.”

« Last Edit: May 03, 2020, 12:46:37 PM by Alec Hutson »

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Re: Corona virus was manufactured in China?
« Reply #18 on: May 03, 2020, 12:46:41 PM »
Simply put, defaulting on our obligation would be the dumbest thing America could possibly do, and there's is exactly 0% chance it ever happens.

Didn't that happen already when the Tea Party swept in and refused to increase the debt ceiling, because they didn't understand what it was?

Where politicians are concerned, you cant say never. They are often so dumb and refuse to listen to the experts so often they do incredibly stupid things without knowing just how stupid they are.

Quote
U.S. Treasury bills and the dollar underpin global financial markets. And the full faith and credit of the U.S. government to meet all its debt obligations is the main reason this is possible.

Back when I was in retail, this used to annoy me.

I'm in Australia and want to buy from China, but have to pay in US$. And back then, the exchange rate was a killer for us. Everything cost significantly more in US$.

I personally think the world being underpinned by the US$ is one of the big mistakes of world trade, and every country should negotiate with others using just their two currencies based on a real exchange rate.

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Joe Vasicek

Re: Corona virus was manufactured in China?
« Reply #19 on: May 03, 2020, 12:56:58 PM »
I don't think this lawsuit will be dismissed so quickly. With Trump giving it a tacit-green light, I suspect this is the first wave of a massive legal and financial assault on the Chinese Communist regime.

China is going to have to come to grips with reality.

Either they pay for letting something like this get loose in the world, by failing to lock their own country down at the onset of the outbreak, or they face economic ruin next time it happens by the rest of the world locking them down from the outside.

The world needs to come to terms with the fact that neither is going to happen easily, and they either get together to enforce a lockdown on any country with zero notice, or they accept that economic instability is here to stay because every couple of yeas, a new one of these will get out.

China has to understand that being the manufacturing hub of the world has a price, and that price includes paying for what they let loose, or having their distribution network terminated the moment one does. And quite probably with a lot of false alarms as well.


The United States is the manufacturing hub of the world, not China. And yes, there is already a mass exodus underway. It's going to take the better part of a decade for most private sector companies to decouple their supply chains from China, though.

You cannot sue a foreign government.

For now.

What I should have said is that the US is moving to allow private citizens (or states, apparently) to sue China in order to justify cancelling the US debt held by the Chinese. Trump has already said that he is considering a nullification of the Foreign Sovereign Immunities Act, which would allow the lawsuit to move forward. Most likely, he needs Congress to pass that nullification, but I doubt the Democrats are going to give him much pushback. The blue states are the ones that are most hardest hit.

I don't think this lawsuit will be dismissed so quickly. With Trump giving it a tacit-green light, I suspect this is the first wave of a massive legal and financial assault on the Chinese Communist regime.

https://lawandcrime.com/high-profile/trump-administration-considers-stripping-china-of-sovereign-immunity-over-coronavirus-response-report/

That won't happen. Trump may even try and support such a measure, but he's an idiot and doesn't have the faintest clue about what is and is not possible. Simply put, the US 'cancelling' the debt owed to China would be a default on the US treasury bonds they've sold, and it would cause seismic shocks to the world financial system. The US dollar would no longer be seen as the world's safe haven asset, which is the greatest advantage the US enjoys in the global economy. Simply put, defaulting on our obligation would be the dumbest thing America could possibly do, and there's is exactly 0% chance it ever happens.

 https://www.politico.com/newsletters/morning-money/2020/05/01/why-we-cant-cancel-us-debt-held-by-china-787277

"It should go without saying — but we suppose it has to be said — that any such move would essentially explode global financial markets. The Chinese own around $1 trillion in U.S. Treasury securities. They along with the Japanese and many other nations fund our debt and deficits. U.S. Treasury bills and the dollar underpin global financial markets. And the full faith and credit of the U.S. government to meet all its debt obligations is the main reason this is possible.

Any move to “cancel” debt held by China — i.e. default on it — would destroy the full faith and credit of the U.S., send U.S. interest rates soaring and could ignite a global financial catastrophe. So when MM asked top White House economic officials about the suggestion, they were lightning fast to deny it, replying within moments, which as any reporter knows is not always the case.

Senior adviser Kevin Hassett texted: “False story. We would never even entertain a default on any U.S. debt.”

NEC Director Larry Kudlow texted: “Absolutely not. Full faith & credit of US debt is sacrosanct. And so is dependable currency as world’s reserve currency. Period. Full stop.”

Trump is many things, but an idiot he is not. You not defeat the combined forces of the mass media, the political establishment, the entrenched bureaucracy, and the intelligence agencies of the most powerful country in the world to become its leader without demonstrating an above-average intelligence, even if most of your opponents are idiots themselves.

If the US does cancel the debt in retaliation against China, it would have massive destructive effects on the financial system and the global economy. In much the same way, Germany's invasion of Belgium in 1914 had a massive destructive effect. Only a few years prior, Norman Angell won a Nobel Peace Prize for his book The Great Illusion, which outlined all the reasons why World War One would never happen, and why any country that started it would lose far more than they would gain. And yet, the Kaiser still made the fateful decision to initiate the Schlieffen Plan.

I'm in Australia and want to buy from China, but have to pay in US$. And back then, the exchange rate was a killer for us. Everything cost significantly more in US$.

I personally think the world being underpinned by the US$ is one of the big mistakes of world trade, and every country should negotiate with others using just their two currencies based on a real exchange rate.

It's called the petrodollar, and it's been in effect ever since Nixon took the US off the gold standard in 1971:

 

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Re: Corona virus was manufactured in China?
« Reply #20 on: May 03, 2020, 01:09:10 PM »
The United States is the manufacturing hub of the world, not China.

Not for Australia, it's not.

Go to Amazon or Ebay, and try to buy from a US company, and you get told they don't send to Australia.

If they do, the freight charge is higher than the cost of the item.

We buy from China. The freight is free, and the prices a lot lower.

This is our problem if the world needs to totally lock down China (nothing at all out, because people movements stopped.) The US will cope because it has a manufacturing sector. But Australia does not now. It was forced overseas by successive right governments between the 1950's and the 1980's.
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Alec Hutson

Re: Corona virus was manufactured in China?
« Reply #21 on: May 03, 2020, 01:15:00 PM »


The United States is the manufacturing hub of the world, not China.

That's . . . not true.

https://www.statista.com/chart/20858/top-10-countries-by-share-of-global-manufacturing-output/

"According to data published by the United Nations Statistics Division, China accounted for 28 percent of global manufacturing output in 2018. That puts the country more than 10 percentage points ahead of the United States, which used to have the world’s largest manufacturing sector until China overtook it in 2010."

Alec Hutson
 

Alec Hutson

Re: Corona virus was manufactured in China?
« Reply #22 on: May 03, 2020, 01:24:53 PM »

China is going to have to come to grips with reality.

Either they pay for letting something like this get loose in the world, by failing to lock their own country down at the onset of the outbreak, or they face economic ruin next time it happens by the rest of the world locking them down from the outside.

The world needs to come to terms with the fact that neither is going to happen easily, and they either get together to enforce a lockdown on any country with zero notice, or they accept that economic instability is here to stay because every couple of yeas, a new one of these will get out.

China has to understand that being the manufacturing hub of the world has a price, and that price includes paying for what they let loose, or having their distribution network terminated the moment one does. And quite probably with a lot of false alarms as well.

Suing a sovereign state for a pandemic that starts within its borders - even if the state acted irresponsibly in its early stages - will never happen, and is a terrible idea if it was possible. The reason no country allows it because it opens a huge can of worms -

1. Should the US be sued for encouraging reckless lending in the lead up to the financial crisis?
2. Should the US be sued for the idiotic and downright criminal decision to invade Iraq on false pretenses, which resulted in millions of innocent dead civilians?
3. Should Mexico be sued for the emergence of H1N1? 

etc, etc

Also, if China was 'cut off' - which will never happen - Australia's economy would go into a tailspin, as a huge amount of its economy is based around exporting raw materials to China.

Alec Hutson
 

Joe Vasicek

Re: Corona virus was manufactured in China?
« Reply #23 on: May 03, 2020, 01:53:38 PM »
Not for Australia, it's not.

Go to Amazon or Ebay, and try to buy from a US company, and you get told they don't send to Australia.

If they do, the freight charge is higher than the cost of the item.

We buy from China. The freight is free, and the prices a lot lower.

Your exact words were "manufacturing hub of the world," not Australia.

That's . . . not true.

https://www.statista.com/chart/20858/top-10-countries-by-share-of-global-manufacturing-output/

"According to data published by the United Nations Statistics Division, China accounted for 28 percent of global manufacturing output in 2018. That puts the country more than 10 percentage points ahead of the United States, which used to have the world’s largest manufacturing sector until China overtook it in 2010."


*output measured on a value-added basis in current US dollars.

From Wikipedia:

"China displaced the United States as the largest manufacturing country in 2010. Again, part of China's rise by this measure has been due to the appreciation of its currency, the renminbi, against the U.S. dollar."

So Chinese manufacturing output has overtaken the US chiefly because they pay their workers crap and manipulate their currency. Meanwhile, the US has better expertise, more advanced technology, and higher innovation, which is why China is constantly stealing our intellectual property.

Don't get me wrong: China is definitely a heavy-hitting rival, and has overtaken the US in some areas. But to describe China as the "manufacturing hub of the world" is incorrect. If Chinese manufacturing goes to zero, those operations move to Mexico, Brazil, and India. If US manufacturing goes to zero, the whole world plunges into a modern dark age.
 

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Re: Corona virus was manufactured in China?
« Reply #24 on: May 03, 2020, 02:15:16 PM »
1. Should the US be sued for encouraging reckless lending in the lead up to the financial crisis?
2. Should the US be sued for the idiotic and downright criminal decision to invade Iraq on false pretenses, which resulted in millions of innocent dead civilians?
3. Should Mexico be sued for the emergence of H1N1? 

Yes. IMO.

Countries need to be accountable to teh world for their actions. This is not the 1900's any more.


Quote
Also, if China was 'cut off' - which will never happen - Australia's economy would go into a tailspin, as a huge amount of its economy is based around exporting raw materials to China.

No argument.

BUT, the only viable answer to the next pandemic coming out of China is to totally isolate China when it is identified.

Countries which rely on China trade will have to adjust, but the cost will be a damn sight less than shutting down the economy the way we just did.

The world has to adjust to this reality. We lock down China or whatever country one starts in, and lock them down totally, or we do this same shut down the world economy thing every 2 years. Choose.
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Joe Vasicek

Re: Corona virus was manufactured in China?
« Reply #25 on: May 03, 2020, 02:43:58 PM »
“War is nothing but a continuation of politics with the admixture of other means.”
― Carl von Clausewitz, On War

I stand by my prediction that by 2030, we have a 70% chance of seeing at least two of the following:

1. a second US civil war,
2. a major global war, and/or
3. the collapse of the global monetary system.
 

Alec Hutson

Re: Corona virus was manufactured in China?
« Reply #26 on: May 03, 2020, 04:25:44 PM »


"China displaced the United States as the largest manufacturing country in 2010. Again, part of China's rise by this measure has been due to the appreciation of its currency, the renminbi, against the U.S. dollar."

So Chinese manufacturing output has overtaken the US chiefly because they pay their workers crap and manipulate their currency. Meanwhile, the US has better expertise, more advanced technology, and higher innovation, which is why China is constantly stealing our intellectual property.

Don't get me wrong: China is definitely a heavy-hitting rival, and has overtaken the US in some areas. But to describe China as the "manufacturing hub of the world" is incorrect. If Chinese manufacturing goes to zero, those operations move to Mexico, Brazil, and India. If US manufacturing goes to zero, the whole world plunges into a modern dark age.

I'm not sure what you're arguing exactly. You were claiming America is the manufacturing hub of the world. That's simply not true. China makes up something like 28% of global manufacturing, America 18%. America is certainly at the forefront of technology and design worldwide, but the actual output of things China leads the world by a fair margin. So much of the world's manufacturing has moved to China that other countries are no longer self sufficient in fairly important items, as we're finding out now with the medical supply chain. China also does indeed have low pay (although not the lowest anymore - it's actually closing in on America in terms of costs, and far higher than Vietnam / Bangladesh / India, etc) and lax environmental rules. That's beside the point. In a globalized world, everything but the highest-end manufacturing will move to lower cost countries. China has a unique advantage over the next rung of low cost countries in that it is stable, has great infrastructure, and the supply chains from many products have totally shifted there. Also, China's currency has been artificially held low for decades (that's why some in the US always clamor to brand China a 'currency manipulator'), and only in the last 10 years or so has started to appreciate to where most economists think it should be naturally.

Alec Hutson
 

Alec Hutson

Re: Corona virus was manufactured in China?
« Reply #27 on: May 03, 2020, 04:32:18 PM »


Yes. IMO.

Countries need to be accountable to teh world for their actions. This is not the 1900's any more.



So who 'holds countries accountable'? The UN? With China and Russia and the US - three countries that regularly violate the sovereignty of other countries and commit atrocities - on the security council with veto power? All that 'punishing' a country that a disease arose from would accomplish is creating Cold-War style blocks and increase the likelihood of serious conflict. It's ridiculous that some Americans wants to 'punish' China and sue them when they should be angry at and threatening lawsuits at their own leaders, who dismissed the threat for months and failed to prepare for what any moderately intelligent person knew was coming.   

Alec Hutson
 
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Re: Corona virus was manufactured in China?
« Reply #28 on: May 03, 2020, 04:43:59 PM »
Yes. IMO.
Countries need to be accountable to the world for their actions. This is not the 1900's any more.

So who 'holds countries accountable'? The UN? With China and Russia and the US - three countries that regularly violate the sovereignty of other countries and commit atrocities - on the security council with veto power? All that 'punishing' a country that a disease arose from would accomplish is creating Cold-War style blocks and increase the likelihood of serious conflict. It's ridiculous that some Americans wants to 'punish' China and sue them when they should be angry at and threatening lawsuits at their own leaders, who dismissed the threat for months and failed to prepare for what any moderately intelligent person knew was coming.

This is why I prefer sci-fi to real life.

In the sci-fi world, aliens turn up and tell us we're part of a local empire, and not joining is not an option. They say the Earth is now a duchy, the systems around us are ours to do with as we like, and they appoint a Duke to run the world.

Cuts out all the political bullsh*t in one go, and makes the whole health of the planet thing under a single jurisdiction.

Instead, the world routinely sh*ts on itself, and calls it manure. Worse, we let other countries sh*t on us and call it an import.

Until the world has an actual world government, we are doomed.

We either get global economic chaos and death, or we isolate the country of origin on day 1. And the sad thing is, the world will settle for global economic chaos and death, instead of locking down where the threat comes from.

Natures way of culling, of course. Man thinks he's top of the food chain, but we are just an over populated animal with delusions of grandeur, due to be culled the only way nature can.

And we're stupid enough to think we'll survive the big one, when we ignore the warnings.
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Vidya

Re: Corona virus was manufactured in China?
« Reply #29 on: May 03, 2020, 09:54:56 PM »
Joe, why would there be a second US civil war?
 

Joe Vasicek

Re: Corona virus was manufactured in China?
« Reply #30 on: May 04, 2020, 02:22:31 AM »
Joe, why would there be a second US civil war?

Poll: Almost 70% Of Americans Believe Civil War Is Imminent
https://dailycaller.com/2019/10/23/georgetown-u-poll-americans-civil-war/

What A Second American Civil War Might Look Like
https://foreignpolicyi.org/what-a-second-american-civil-war-might-look-like/

Virginia Democrats won an election. Gun owners are talking civil war
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/jan/09/virginia-gun-control-second-amendment-civil-war

These are just a few articles that popped up with a quick DuckDuckGo search. For a more in-depth exploration of the underlying factors of the conflict, I would recommend The Right Side of History by Ben Shapiro, Addicted to Outrage by Glenn Beck, and The Case for Trump by Victor Davis Hansen.

I'm not sure what you're arguing exactly. You were claiming America is the manufacturing hub of the world. That's simply not true. China makes up something like 28% of global manufacturing, America 18%. America is certainly at the forefront of technology and design worldwide, but the actual output of things China leads the world by a fair margin. So much of the world's manufacturing has moved to China that other countries are no longer self sufficient in fairly important items, as we're finding out now with the medical supply chain. China also does indeed have low pay (although not the lowest anymore - it's actually closing in on America in terms of costs, and far higher than Vietnam / Bangladesh / India, etc) and lax environmental rules. That's beside the point. In a globalized world, everything but the highest-end manufacturing will move to lower cost countries. China has a unique advantage over the next rung of low cost countries in that it is stable, has great infrastructure, and the supply chains from many products have totally shifted there. Also, China's currency has been artificially held low for decades (that's why some in the US always clamor to brand China a 'currency manipulator'), and only in the last 10 years or so has started to appreciate to where most economists think it should be naturally.

I'm arguing that the United States is more critical to global manufacturing, and that China's manufacturing sector is easier to replace if it goes under. The "hub" of a wheel is the part at the center, around which everything else revolves. China has overtaken us in some areas, as you have pointed out, but the global economy still revolves around American industry and innovation.

China is "stable"? You do realize that the Hong Kong protests are still going on, right? When China siezed a bunch of upscale condos to house Covid-19 patients, the locals burned them all to the ground. Meanwhile, they've thrown millions of Uighers into concentration camps in the west and have been harvesting organs from political prisoners for years.

As for the infrastructure, have you looked at the building standards that Chinese construction firms follow? Back in March, a hospital collapsed, killing almost everyone inside. The reason? The structural integrity was so weak that it couldn't hold all of the people. This is hardly an isolated case. Does China build a lot of things? Yes, but most of them are death traps.

China's position in the global supply chains is changing, largely due to the coronapocalypse. If the 90s was an era of globalization, the 20s is an era of deglobalization. Except for a few deposits of rare-earth metals, it won't be difficult to cut them out or go around them. China is functionally an island, cut off on the east by an ocean, the south by jungles and mountains, the west by deserts and mountains, and the north by tundra and permafrost.

China has been fighting a trade war with the United States for the past 40 years, and it's only because of Trump that we've begun to fight back. In a very large degree, we have appeased the Chinese communists by turning a blind eye to their atrocities and subsidizing their bad behavior through our misguided trade policies. All of that is now coming to an end.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2020, 02:25:19 AM by Joe Vasicek »
 
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JRTomlin

Re: Corona virus was manufactured in China?
« Reply #31 on: May 04, 2020, 07:29:42 AM »
Simply put, defaulting on our obligation would be the dumbest thing America could possibly do, and there's is exactly 0% chance it ever happens.

Didn't that happen already when the Tea Party swept in and refused to increase the debt ceiling, because they didn't understand what it was?

Where politicians are concerned, you cant say never. They are often so dumb and refuse to listen to the experts so often they do incredibly stupid things without knowing just how stupid they are.

Quote
U.S. Treasury bills and the dollar underpin global financial markets. And the full faith and credit of the U.S. government to meet all its debt obligations is the main reason this is possible.

Back when I was in retail, this used to annoy me.

I'm in Australia and want to buy from China, but have to pay in US$. And back then, the exchange rate was a killer for us. Everything cost significantly more in US$.

I personally think the world being underpinned by the US$ is one of the big mistakes of world trade, and every country should negotiate with others using just their two currencies based on a real exchange rate.
No. That is not what happened. The US government has never defaulted on its obligations to pay its debt. It has never, ever missed a payment. Whether it is 'one of the big mistakes of world trade' or not, there is no way the people who actually control the US gov't (not Trump) will never agree to default.
 

Alec Hutson

Re: Corona virus was manufactured in China?
« Reply #32 on: May 04, 2020, 10:06:41 AM »

I'm arguing that the United States is more critical to global manufacturing, and that China's manufacturing sector is easier to replace if it goes under. The "hub" of a wheel is the part at the center, around which everything else revolves. China has overtaken us in some areas, as you have pointed out, but the global economy still revolves around American industry and innovation.


Manufacturing is defined as 'the making of articles on a large scale using industrial production'. China makes things on a larger scale than any other country - as explained before, they account for 28% of global manufacturing, vastly more than the US at 18%. Ergo, they are the world's largest manufacturing country. By a large margin. It's not even up for debate. You can try and redefine 'manufacturing' or 'hub' to fit some convoluted definition that fits what you want to believe, but the simple fact is that, right now, China makes more stuff than America. By a wide margin. Could that change? Sure. It's changed many times throughout history. Once England was the world's dominant manufacturer. But we are not talking about what COULD happen. China is called the World's Factory for a good reason.

https://www.investopedia.com/articles/investing/102214/why-china-worlds-factory.asp

"Industrial production does not take place in isolation, but rather relies on networks of suppliers, component manufacturers, distributors, government agencies, and customers who are all involved in the process of production through competition and cooperation. The business ecosystem in China has evolved quite a lot in the last 30 years.

For example, Shenzhen, a city bordering Hong Kong in the southeast, has evolved as a hub for the electronics industry. It has cultivated an ecosystem to support the manufacturing supply chain, including component manufacturers, low-cost workers, a technical workforce, assembly suppliers, and customers."

This is why China is referred to as a hub. Not only does it literally make the most stuff, but it sucks in vast amounts of raw materials and components and spits out finished goods. This isn't up for debate. Where those goods often designed somewhere else? Yes. But we are referring to manufacturing here, not design.



China is "stable"? You do realize that the Hong Kong protests are still going on, right? When China siezed a bunch of upscale condos to house Covid-19 patients, the locals burned them all to the ground. Meanwhile, they've thrown millions of Uighers into concentration camps in the west and have been harvesting organs from political prisoners for years.


Joe, I live in Shanghai. China is a very stable country by world standards, and it has a tight control over its population. Good or bad, this is what business wants. A few random anecdotes are meaningless. How was it able to stamp Covid out so quickly? It forced everyone to stay at home and rigorously tracked everyone that had contact with carriers. That's the kind fo stability businesses want. There are peripheral protests against Chinese rule in places like HK (a very separate entity to mainland China, by the way) but the areas that do the bulk of the manufacturing (Dongguan, Guangdong, Hubei) are very stable. I mean, we have armed protesters camping in state capitols and a few years ago riots convulsing US cities when African Americans were killed by police.



As for the infrastructure, have you looked at the building standards that Chinese construction firms follow? Back in March, a hospital collapsed, killing almost everyone inside. The reason? The structural integrity was so weak that it couldn't hold all of the people. This is hardly an isolated case. Does China build a lot of things? Yes, but most of them are death traps.


Anecdotal cases. Claiming that most of what China builds are death traps is ridiculous hyperbole. Is an Iphone a death trap? Your TV? Because dollars to donuts they were made in China.


China's position in the global supply chains is changing, largely due to the coronapocalypse. If the 90s was an era of globalization, the 20s is an era of deglobalization. Except for a few deposits of rare-earth metals, it won't be difficult to cut them out or go around them. China is functionally an island, cut off on the east by an ocean, the south by jungles and mountains, the west by deserts and mountains, and the north by tundra and permafrost.


It may change. But that is beside the point. We are talking about NOW and RIGHT NOW China is the world's factory and the largest manufacturer by a large margin.  Also, China is not an island. That's a ridiculous assertion. China is at the center of Asia - and Asia, by itself, has a bigger GDP than the rest of the world combined.

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2019/12/asia-economic-growth/

China borders vibrant or rich economies like Japan, SK, Indonesia, India, the ASEAN countries, Singapore, Australia. If anything, America is more like an island, hemmed by two oceans and only bordering a sparsely populated Canada and Mexico. 


China has been fighting a trade war with the United States for the past 40 years, and it's only because of Trump that we've begun to fight back. In a very large degree, we have appeased the Chinese communists by turning a blind eye to their atrocities and subsidizing their bad behavior through our misguided trade policies. All of that is now coming to an end.

In this, I agree with you. I disagree with literally every other thing Trump has done, but I do agree with his trade-war with China, and trying to shift global manufacturing away from China, a country with a regime that is an existential challenge to democracy worldwide.

« Last Edit: May 04, 2020, 10:12:12 AM by Alec Hutson »

Alec Hutson