Author Topic: Romance fiction is the "heartbeat of change in book culture"  (Read 11708 times)

Hopscotch

Romance fiction is the "heartbeat of change in book culture"
« on: October 13, 2022, 03:59:33 AM »
This complete article says a lot about genre fiction, romance or other:

“Friday essay: romance fiction rewrites the rulebook” - The Conversation  Oct 6, 2022

“Romance fiction has one of the most recognisable brands in book culture….But romance fiction is also the most innovative and uncontrollable of all genres. It is the genre least able to be contained by established models of how the publishing industry works, or how readers and writers behave….Romance is at the forefront of digital innovation…Romance readers are active and engaged…[sharing the] pleasure and sense of belonging that comes with being in the genre world…Romance fiction is energised by transnational communities of readers and writers, often mediated online…Romance can be socially progressive…romance writers and readers are more and more concerned with inequality across gender, race and sexuality. They are pushing back against old conventions….Romance fiction is more progressive than some stereotypes might suggest, but it is not free from exclusion or discrimination. The genre is influenced by its gatekeepers – human and digital….Contemporary romance fiction is formally tight, emotionally intense and digitally advanced. It’s where the heartbeat of change and action is in book culture.”

https://theconversation.com/friday-essay-romance-fiction-rewrites-the-rulebook-183136
 

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Re: Romance fiction is the "heartbeat of change in book culture"
« Reply #1 on: October 13, 2022, 04:39:32 AM »
There are a lot of interesting things in the article.

I'm a little puzzled by the conflict between the advice I've often seen on forums about maintaining genre norms and the horror stories about some romance publishers and their insistence on rigid formulas. All of this seems contradicted by the description of romance as the greatest innovative force in the article.

Does the truth lie somewhere in between? The romances I've read certainly didn't feel formulaic or rigid, but I've mostly read books in that genre from authors I know. I'm not sure whether or not they're typical of the genre.


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LilyBLily

Re: Romance fiction is the "heartbeat of change in book culture"
« Reply #2 on: October 13, 2022, 07:25:50 AM »
There are a lot of interesting things in the article.

I'm a little puzzled by the conflict between the advice I've often seen on forums about maintaining genre norms and the horror stories about some romance publishers and their insistence on rigid formulas. All of this seems contradicted by the description of romance as the greatest innovative force in the article.

Does the truth lie somewhere in between? The romances I've read certainly didn't feel formulaic or rigid, but I've mostly read books in that genre from authors I know. I'm not sure whether or not they're typical of the genre.

I worked in the romance biz for a couple of decades and each publisher had its ideas about what their stories should be and how they should be told. An example I always give is of a perfectly good ms. that had both female and male POV. "Oh, no, we can't have that," so the author was forced to write the male POV out. A few years later, a different publisher was lauded for innovating by having both female and male POV. These days, it's standard.

Another example. I read a perfectly lovely ms., really beautifully written--a cut above the much more pedestrian writing one usually sees in genre. The publisher objected that the heroine had once committed a crime. "Oh, no, we can't have that" all over again. I don't think that ms. got bought, even though it was a careless vehicular kind of crime, not one of criminal intent. Writing it out eviscerated the story, which then wasn't considered good enough to buy. I haven't followed that publisher of late so don't know if it has gone "soft on crime."

Meanwhile, yes, certain authors were forced to write an extra five or ten thousand words--or cut them. Category romances within a particular line all were exactly the same page length. Harlequin Silhouette was a procrustean bed when it came to type size and thus the word count was rigid. Dell Candlelight would vary the type size instead. (Various versions of this happened in sf in the good old days. I remember Lester Del Ray openly talking about cutting X number of words to fit a story into the space he had available. Or adding them. Oh, the horror!)

Today, all that's left of the much-vaunted, much-despised "formula" of genre romance is the HEA. Everything else is details, and those shift at the drop of a hat when someone is brave enough to do something new and the readers go for it. Yes, there were publishers who insisted on X number of sex scenes and even where they should be in the story, or who insisted that certain books should have a suspense plot, or others should be squeaky clean, and so on, all to make one line of books appear different from another. Yet, if a ms. showed up that broke the rules in a way that charmed an editor, it got bought, readers delighted in the newness, and it quickly became a cliche. I remember exactly which romance author opened mouths during kissing, for instance, and which publisher allowed it. Hard to believe that until that moment all kisses in genre romances were described as closed mouthed. But they were.

(Grin I was not raised to talk about these things, but after years in the biz I can say the word "virgin" out loud in an elevator with strangers. grint)   
 
 
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Crystal

Re: Romance fiction is the "heartbeat of change in book culture"
« Reply #3 on: October 13, 2022, 08:14:56 AM »
As far as indies go, romance authors are usually at the forefront of marketing and publishing trends. Partly because there are so many indie romance authors. Partly because of the community focused approach a lot of authors take.

It's not all sunshine and roses. There are mean girls, bullies, cliques, etc., but IME, romance authors tend to share more than authors in other genres. They're more likely to attempt to help other authors / build community / offer knowledge.

I'm sure there are lots of reasons, but a lot is probably gender roles. Women are socialized to help other women and to maintain humility about their success and you do see a lot of that in the romance community, for better or worse.
 
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Re: Romance fiction is the "heartbeat of change in book culture"
« Reply #4 on: October 14, 2022, 04:13:55 AM »
Thanks for the clarifications. Now I understand the reality a little better.


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writeway

Re: Romance fiction is the "heartbeat of change in book culture"
« Reply #5 on: October 14, 2022, 10:23:07 AM »
I agree with this but only when it comes to indie publishers. Not trade. Heck no. They are about as progressive as a 1950s TV show. They are still stuck in the old days. I wonder if those who read only trade really feel the way these pubs do. When self-publishing took off there were two different audiences. Those who read trade and those who read indie. Now, I think the lines have blurred and those who read mostly trade read indie now too. Those who read indie seem to read only indie or mostly indie. My point is, trade pubs and editors are so backward. Just the other day, a woman on FB said that an agent told her no one would want to read a romance like hers, yet that trope she was using is extremely popular now, at least in indie circles. this editor seems to have no idea what is going on or again, they only concern themselves with their little box and nothing else. So that's why I think it's still two different worlds.

As someone who came from trade, there was nothing progressive about the trade romance industry. They only wanted white straight romance and acted like everything else doesn't sell yet indies are writing more diverse works and they sell fine. They pressure POC authors to whitewash their work and for some to even hide their identities so white audiences would be more welcoming to the authors. If I was a white romance reader I'd be offended that these people act like white readers won't read anything besides white M/F books. It's not true. What's funny is now the trades wanna be on this "diverse" kick because I guess they woke up and said, "Oh, gee. You mean LGBTQ, blacks, Latinos, and Asians actually wanna read books about people THEY relate to?" You mean people actually BUY books that aren't white M/F romance???? They are so misguided. Not to mention there are plenty of white romance readers who embrace diversity (as I just pointed out) and turned to indie works because they got tired of the same-old same-old. I'm not white and I write black heroines, and I have plenty of white readers as well as others and this just proves how wrong the ones making decisions at these publishers are. Many people want a good story but not always the same old stuff. They want diversity whether that's in the characters, plots, etc. But I guess trade sticks to what they feel is safe while indies took and continued to take more chances. Authors who take chances in their work or want who represent diversity are not going to trade pubs, that's for sure. They are going indie. The trade romance industry has always been racist, homophobic, and sexist. Yes, sexist which is sad since the romance industry is dominated mainly by women in editing and now more and more are publishers. And it's women that are making these horrible decisions.

I admit it's been at least 5 years since I've been in trade but from what I am hearing from authors and people I know still involved in this part of the industry, it ain't changed much. And let's not get started on that joke of an organization known as the RWA or better yet known as "No LGBTQ or Minorities Are Welcomed Here." Now all of a sudden they wanna be "diverse" when everything imploded exposing their racism and homophobia. They're practically begging marginalized authors to join now when they wouldn't have pissed on us before if we were on fire. Don't believe they care about diversity. They care about the MONEY and the STATUS that they've lost. They wonder why everyone dropped their memberships and ran for the hills. Or why every self-respected chapter that didn't wanna be associated with their discrimination and vile treatment of authors dropped the RWA like a hot potato. Or why they can't find authors who proudly proclaim that they are members. Being associated with the RWA is not a plus for a romance author these days.

Thank goodness for indies. Self-publishing ain't perfect but without it, a lot of voices would still be muted by those who believe they have no place. I give the indie romance community all the credit for being bold, progressive, accepting, and daring. I give NO credit to trade.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2022, 10:31:01 AM by writeway »
 

LilyBLily

Re: Romance fiction is the "heartbeat of change in book culture"
« Reply #6 on: October 14, 2022, 02:15:29 PM »
<snip>
And let's not get started on that joke of an organization known as the RWA or better yet known as "No LGBTQ or Minorities Are Welcomed Here." Now all of a sudden they wanna be "diverse" when everything imploded exposing their racism and homophobia. They're practically begging marginalized authors to join now when they wouldn't have pissed on us before if we were on fire. Don't believe they care about diversity. They care about the MONEY and the STATUS that they've lost. They wonder why everyone dropped their memberships and ran for the hills. Or why every self-respected chapter that didn't wanna be associated with their discrimination and vile treatment of authors dropped the RWA like a hot potato. Or why they can't find authors who proudly proclaim that they are members. Being associated with the RWA is not a plus for a romance author these days.
<snip>


That's probably true, and yet the current RWA board are mostly POC, and they are not responsible for the revolting behavior of RWA in the past. They have said flat out that now it is finally their turn as previously marginalized members to reap the benefits of belonging to a national romance writing organization--so this is not the moment to let RWA die. I see the logic in that, especially as I have not seen any significant effort by the various disaffiliated chapters to forge a new national voice of romance. I'm a member of multiple chapters, some of which have disaffiliated and some of which have not. They are all struggling right now. Yes, some members who quit RWA have rejoined the newly separated chapters, but I don't see any big rush happening and I blame it on the pandemic. Many authors have been struggling for the past two years, unable to write. There is Zoom fatigue, and there are continued fears of catching Covid at in-person events, and there is a shocking lack of volunteerism, too. All the chapters worked extremely hard last year to energize members and give them benefits, yet the majority response was apathy. That's telling, considering how often I've heard, "What's in it for me?" Even when an organization reaches out and does its very best to give to its members, the reaction of late has been poor. Also, I don't think any of these groups has resolved the issue of how to effectively serve members whose publishing paths are significantly different from each other.
 

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Re: Romance fiction is the "heartbeat of change in book culture"
« Reply #7 on: October 15, 2022, 12:36:57 AM »
All of those are good points. If the current RWA leadership is trying to improve the organization, it would be good to give them a chance to do so.

For all its faults, I do recall RWA standing up for its members more than once against something Amazon was trying to do. There is a virtue in having a large organization. Individual indies, except maybe a few really sellers, seldom have much clout.

It is hard to get an organization to meet the needs of different publishing models. That requires leadership that understands both, and that kind of transition will take a while.


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Crystal

Re: Romance fiction is the "heartbeat of change in book culture"
« Reply #8 on: October 15, 2022, 05:18:10 AM »
TBH, I don't think the romance industry is really progressive, as a whole. Romance is a very regressive genre, in a lot of ways. The heart of the genre is "family values." The gender roles tend to be pretty conservative too. Where are the alpha heroines? Where are the submissive men? Why is it books with difficult men sell well when books with difficult women don't sell so well? Why do readers not only tolerate but adore misogynistic heroes? Why do we worship the "alpha hero"? Where are the books with heroines who have issues with lubrication or who need external stimulation to finish? I could go on and on.

Not all books, all the time, but most books that sell, most of the time. And that is not even getting into the casual homophobia and racism in a lot of books, indie or otherwise.

Personally, I see pretty frequent pushback from readers when a book ends with anything other than marriage and babies. (I have multiple explicitly childfree couples and I get "when are the babies coming" reviews on the reg). Most romances exist in a fantasy world without STDs or birth control failure (unless it affects the plot) where all unplanned pregnancies end in birth or miscarriage (when IRL 40-60% of unplanned pregnancies end in abortion).

(source: https://www.guttmacher.org/fact-sheet/induced-abortion-worldwide)

I don't have the same optimism about readers' thirst for diversity (or the lack of racism, sexism, and homophobia in the indie world). I have seen more diverse books selling, over time, but the vast majority of books in the top 100 or on the NYT or USA Today list feature able-bodied white characters (and those that don't often don't advertise that information on the cover). And I have seen sales drop when I introduced non-white heroes (heroines seem to do okay, but moreso if they aren't on the cover. If you don't believe me, go look at the interracial category. Mostly white dudes).

I do think it's true trad is more white than indie. There are more indie authors from marginalized groups or who write marginalized characters, but I have been impressed by the trad attempts to publish more diverse books explicitly. Of course they're doing it for the money. That is the nature of the publishing business. We are all doing it for the money, to some degree.
 
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LilyBLily

Re: Romance fiction is the "heartbeat of change in book culture"
« Reply #9 on: October 15, 2022, 06:21:44 AM »
I for one got sick of seeing romance heroines deny--in great shock!--that they would ever have dreamed of aborting a surprise pregnancy by that guy who went away or otherwise treated them like dirt, leaving them in dire poverty to raise a child alone.

However, to be fair, romance authors have been consistently muzzled by their publishers on so many topics I'm not sure we will know the truth about how either authors or readers think or feel for some time to come.

As for the babies thing, there was a period in romances in which nobody was having any babies except secret babies. Then the tide turned, precisely when the portion of the baby boom generation that had delayed having children finally did have them, creating the generation known by some as "echo boomers." I presume the baby boomers are now pressuring the aging echo boomers to produce grandchildren if they haven't already, and now views a happy ever after as incomplete if the next generation doesn't happen. After all, although many people are childless by choice, most people are not.

Which brings up a point. If 88% of a country's population is white (which actually isn't true of the U.S. anymore), why shouldn't 88% of its fiction be about white people? True, many of us are trying to repair the historic lack of inclusion of minorities and differentness in our fiction, but it isn't a priori wrong to write about those who are not minorities or who are, for instance, able-bodied.

Although it is less interesting. I've been reading some romances recently in which various main characters--not minor ones--have serious mental/emotional/physical problems; there are more of these being published all the time, especially by indies. Dorothy L. Sayers broke convention in the early 1920s, a hundred years ago, by giving her otherwise white, rich, and titled hero a very serious case of "shell shock." Today we have many authors writing compassionate tales of people who have suffered traumatic events, and I think the trend will only continue. A broader definition of who main characters can be is already with us. Indies are running with it.

But. We also have to acknowledge that mafia romance and motorcycle club romance and a few other very popular subgenres featuring criminals as heroes and dubious consent or nonexistent consent are very regressive indeed, and yet readers like them. A lot. That's the conundrum of romance. I don't feel I have to be an apologist for such books; the good thing is that we aren't stuck anymore with only one kind of story, and people who want to imagine these other romantic possibilities are finding books in which to explore them safely.

Are romances that preach conservative social values or that don't condemn criminal values morally reprehensible as stories and actually bad for readers? That's a different discussion.     

 
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idontknowyet

Re: Romance fiction is the "heartbeat of change in book culture"
« Reply #10 on: October 15, 2022, 07:44:15 AM »
Some of this is because we read books for the fantasy especially in romance. There isn't any fantasy that begins with i got an std or i had an abortion. Those are the worst parts of a woman's life. In several of my books I had my character contemplate abortion, why because that's real every woman can relate to the thought, but once you step past that you lose the fantasy in the book.
In some ways it's the same as cheating. Very very few authors can get away with cheating in romance. You break the fantasy of romance and hit a sore spot for most women.

What's the point of reading a romance without the fantasy the escape from the harsh realities of life.

 
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Bill Hiatt

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Re: Romance fiction is the "heartbeat of change in book culture"
« Reply #11 on: October 15, 2022, 08:29:59 AM »
As a former teacher (for thirty-six years), I'm going to suggest the importance of education in producing a more inclusive body of literature.

As LilyBLily points out, the US is no longer 88% white. in 2020, non-Hispanic Whites were 57.8%. With the advent of self publishing, we might expect indie authors to reflect that diversity. But it doesn't seem as if they do.

Without meaning to provoke a political discussion, I think the disparity in educational opportunity (which is socioeconomic but impacts communities of color more severely) is one reason why indie authors don't reflect the country's diversity. Access to books and time to read from an early age encourage the development of both literacy and writing skills. Educational quality is of course also a factor, and with many states still using property taxes to fund schools, richer neighborhoods get much better schools than poorer ones, making it difficult to break the cycle of poverty. And after high school, people from impoverished families are more likely to not be able to afford college and have to work full-time to make ends meet.

What that means in practical terms is that people of color with stories to tell aren't as often in a position to tell them.

As far as white authors are concerned, we can certainly do our part, but--correct me if I'm wrong--white authors writing about protagonists of color aren't always well received. Somewhere, I read something like, "Be inclusive--but stay out of our lane."  I imagine the sentiment isn't universal, but it does seem to be out there.

In many cases, it's probably also true that authors know best the communities of which they are a part, making it harder for authors to write with complete inclusiveness.


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Hopscotch

Re: Romance fiction is the "heartbeat of change in book culture"
« Reply #12 on: October 15, 2022, 12:15:06 PM »
What's the point of reading a romance without the fantasy the escape from the harsh realities of life.

I'm as puzzled by the popularity of romance fiction as I am by James Bond or Star Wars.  But they're all fantasies and everyone needs escapism now and then.  (Maybe more of it now.)  What this thread suggests is that there are a jillion audiences out there for all the sub-sub-subdivisions of any genre.  And I'm still puzzling out how to connect with just one of them. :confused:
 

elleoco

Re: Romance fiction is the "heartbeat of change in book culture"
« Reply #13 on: October 16, 2022, 01:10:20 AM »
What's the point of reading a romance without the fantasy the escape from the harsh realities of life.
I know that's true for a lot of readers, but for me, I read romance like anything else -- for a good story. That means a certain level of realism, and whether romance, mystery, or thriller, when it goes off into la la land, it loses me. It's why I dump some books close to the end and it's why I don't read a lot of romance and write what's often labeled "gritty," although IMO it's just halfway realistic historical romance for post-Civil War Western U.S. Since my books sell, if not in the stratospheric level, there is a market for more realistic romance.

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Re: Romance fiction is the "heartbeat of change in book culture"
« Reply #14 on: October 16, 2022, 01:20:35 AM »
People have a wide range of different tastes. If a writer has a good idea and can execute it well, I believe there could be a potential market even if the book is unusual. Unfortunately, it's hard to know how large that market will be in advance. Self publishing provides an opportunity to test the boundaries in a way trad publishing can't always manage.


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Crystal

Re: Romance fiction is the "heartbeat of change in book culture"
« Reply #15 on: October 18, 2022, 03:56:23 AM »
I'm not assigning a moral judgement to the books or the readers. I'm just saying they aren't progressive.

Whether or not romance's primary purpose is as a fantasy is another conversation. And what that means is also another conversation. I don't really like the word fantasy, but, for the sake of argument, all fantasies have some level of realism (there's still gravity in fairytales, for example), but that level of realism can vary dramatically.

An accidental pregnancy where a dude steps up to support a heroine having an abortion can be a fantasy just as much as an accidental pregnancy where a dude steps up to raise a baby.

Same thing for STDs (or disability): a person with an STD find a partner with understanding can be a fantasy just as a world of sex without any STDs can.

So many people live with disability but it's very rare to see this in romance. In fact, I accidentally wrote a heroine who lives with disability (she was the sister in the previous book; the parents had died in a tragic car crash, the way parents in fiction do, and I thought "well, if the crash was that bad, the survivor would have back issues.") I didn't even think about the fact that I was doing something really odd until years later, when I started to get compliments on writing books about how everyone deserves love.

I had a back injury a few years ago and it just doesn't really go away. Sometimes I have fantasies of a world where I don't have the injury. And sometimes I have fantasies of people who really support me and help me with the injury. Both things are fantasies.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2022, 04:00:34 AM by Crystal »
 

idontknowyet

Re: Romance fiction is the "heartbeat of change in book culture"
« Reply #16 on: October 18, 2022, 06:29:31 AM »
With indies is diversity really an issue?

Trade pubs? maybe, but I do think some of them are working on it.

But indie authors? I really don't think it's an issue. I can only speak to my small-ish (i know quite a few authors that pop in and out of a sprint group i'm in) community, diversity isn't an issue. We have people from everywhere writing on every topic imaginable.

The thing we can't control is what people buy. We can off them a product, but they still need to fork money out for it. That said more and more diverse works are moving up the charts. We give them more great options to choose from.
 
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LilyBLily

Re: Romance fiction is the "heartbeat of change in book culture"
« Reply #17 on: October 18, 2022, 06:55:43 AM »
With indies is diversity really an issue?

Trade pubs? maybe, but I do think some of them are working on it.

But indie authors? I really don't think it's an issue. I can only speak to my small-ish (i know quite a few authors that pop in and out of a sprint group i'm in) community, diversity isn't an issue. We have people from everywhere writing on every topic imaginable.

The thing we can't control is what people buy. We can off them a product, but they still need to fork money out for it. That said more and more diverse works are moving up the charts. We give them more great options to choose from.

Trad pubs used to obscure the features of main characters on the cover so white people would buy books with Asian heroes, for example. I've seen a reasonable number of indie covers with interracial couples and with Black couples, but most indies say it's really hard to find suitable photos.

A side issue is, are the most political readers reading indie books? The firestorms over which ethnicity is allowed to write about which other ethnicity seem to center on trad pub books.
 

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Re: Romance fiction is the "heartbeat of change in book culture"
« Reply #18 on: October 18, 2022, 11:32:49 PM »
A side issue is, are the most political readers reading indie books? The firestorms over which ethnicity is allowed to write about which other ethnicity seem to center on trad pub books.
That's an interesting question. I'm not sure that there's any reason the most political readers would necessarily avoid indie books. But, even though a lot of indies are making good money, it's still tough for any indie to have the same visibility as a major trad author. The most visible targets are going to get hit a lot more often.


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Crystal

Re: Romance fiction is the "heartbeat of change in book culture"
« Reply #19 on: October 19, 2022, 02:55:44 AM »
I think you're right that people who talk about inclusivity on Twitter don't necessarily show up to buy indie books.

But I don't think there are many people policing who can write what (and by policing I mean complaining online. They aren't really doing more than that). I have never once seen a criticism or review comment suggesting I was not the person to write something wheras I have had a number of comments that celebrated the inclusivity of a book.
 
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Bill Hiatt

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Re: Romance fiction is the "heartbeat of change in book culture"
« Reply #20 on: October 19, 2022, 06:21:58 AM »
I think you're right that people who talk about inclusivity on Twitter don't necessarily show up to buy indie books.

But I don't think there are many people policing who can write what (and by policing I mean complaining online. They aren't really doing more than that). I have never once seen a criticism or review comment suggesting I was not the person to write something wheras I have had a number of comments that celebrated the inclusivity of a book.
There are apparently enough to get a starred Kirkus review taken down and revised. https://slate.com/culture/2017/10/kirkus-withdraws-starred-review-after-criticism.html Granted, that was in 2017, but I'm not sure things have gotten better since then.

I can understand objections to portrayals of a group that are stereotypic, otherwise disrespectful, or just inaccurate. But in the case cited above, the publisher bent over backward to be sensitive and accurate. The issue was in part a) that a white person was the main character, and b) that it took the white person too long to awaken to injustice (which seems kind of realistic to me--people often do take too long to awaken to injustice). However, if the main character had been an Iranian Muslim instead, the novel might well have been criticized because a white author was using an Iranian Muslim main character. I forget the title, but that's exactly what happened when a white author wrote from the viewpoint of a black, inner city teenager.

I don't know how many people take this view, but it effectively puts white authors in a box. If your main character is white, regardless of what the character is like, you're guilty of writing a white savior narrative. If the main character is not, you're guilty of appropriation or simply of telling a story that isn't yours to tell. If all the characters are white, you're guilty of not being inclusive enough.

The one advantage to being a prawn is that I'm too far out of sight for the mobs to take notice of me. Even so, I do my best to be inclusive and to represent other groups fairly, to the best of my ability. Although my MC is often white, normally the heroism in the group is a group effort, not one person saving the day. I do also have one book with a black MC, one book with a Brazilian MC (mixed black and Portuguese ancestry) and three with MCs of Asian ancestry. A number of the other books don't really have one MC but have an ensemble structure.

In the interest of accurately portraying people, I try to stick to characters that have some resemblance to people I know. For example, the black characters draw on students and their parents, whom I met through teaching. Since I was teaching at Beverly Hills High School, it's not a representative cross-section, but at least I accurately reflect real people to the best of my ability.

There's always room to improve, but when you look at the other various groups were portrayed fifty years ago, at least we are making progress.


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Re: Romance fiction is the "heartbeat of change in book culture"
« Reply #21 on: October 19, 2022, 11:59:57 PM »
A UK author I often read doesn't seem to have gotten hit with a lot of bad reviews on the issue but worries about the possibility. One of his books has a long afterword explaining his choices.

He's a white male with a non-white wife, who he suggests has given him more insight into racism.

His fantasy works are set in a parallel universe connected to Earth in some way. There are hints that maybe the original population migrated originally from Earth. In any case, there are characters of all races, but they mingle freely, and despite all the problems they have, racism is not one of them. The MC in the longest series is a white woman kidnapped from Earth. She has several romantic interests but ends up with an Asian guy. Another series set in the same universe has a black man from Earth as an MC. At one point, he's struck by how little anyone seems to care about race. Yet another series has different MCs, one of which is a black woman from an aristocratic family. (There are rigid class distinctions but absolutely no racial ones. It sounds as if the goal is to point out (through the Earth emigres) how ridiculous racism actually is, though, as you can see, the approach is relatively unconventional. The author also attacks the class distinctions. (The MCs, even when they are aristocrats themselves, almost invariably bash class distinctions.)



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Hopscotch

Re: Romance fiction is the "heartbeat of change in book culture"
« Reply #22 on: October 20, 2022, 05:52:31 AM »
I write historical Westerns.  Carefully hew to the truth of those days.  One truth is that the Wild West was less wild and more diverse than Hollywood claims.  But I am not a cowboy.  Do I get charged with cowboy cultural appropriation?  Or does a writer write and we let the readers sort him out by not buying her stuff?
 

Crystal

Re: Romance fiction is the "heartbeat of change in book culture"
« Reply #23 on: October 20, 2022, 06:15:08 AM »
A UK author I often read doesn't seem to have gotten hit with a lot of bad reviews on the issue but worries about the possibility. One of his books has a long afterword explaining his choices.

He's a white male with a non-white wife, who he suggests has given him more insight into racism.

His fantasy works are set in a parallel universe connected to Earth in some way. There are hints that maybe the original population migrated originally from Earth. In any case, there are characters of all races, but they mingle freely, and despite all the problems they have, racism is not one of them. The MC in the longest series is a white woman kidnapped from Earth. She has several romantic interests but ends up with an Asian guy. Another series set in the same universe has a black man from Earth as an MC. At one point, he's struck by how little anyone seems to care about race. Yet another series has different MCs, one of which is a black woman from an aristocratic family. (There are rigid class distinctions but absolutely no racial ones. It sounds as if the goal is to point out (through the Earth emigres) how ridiculous racism actually is, though, as you can see, the approach is relatively unconventional. The author also attacks the class distinctions. (The MCs, even when they are aristocrats themselves, almost invariably bash class distinctions.)

I'm also a white person married to a not white person and while I don't really think I have a super meaningful contribution to discussions of racism, being a white person, I do take issue with a lot of representations of IR relationships... well I don't know that I'd say I take issue per se, more that I take issue with people suggesting there's a right way to engage with race. I also grew up in a very diverse area, with a lot of people from different cultures and different POVs. In a lot of books I read, there's this HUGE gulf between people of two different races and this otherizing that doesn't reflect my experience. That reflects some people's experience and that's okay. But I'd like to see a broader range there too. I see the same thing with the way people (often white people) talk about PoC's relationship to race. It's not true that all PoC think about race one way, the same way it's not true all women think about gender one way, or all gay men think about sexuality one way.

I do think there is a lot of criticism of this in general... but I don't think it often affects authors directly, especially not indie authors. I often pick up older books with VERY ICK content (ooof, I read a legal thriller from the late 90s with so much fetishizing of the Cuban MMC) and I rarely see any criticism. Maybe those books flew under the radar. But I see it in modern books too.

The thing with reviews is: we all get bad reviews by people who either don't understand what we're trying to do or lack information. (i.e. someone corrects an "inaccuracy" that's actually correct). That's okay. People are allowed to have their own opinion.

As an aside, I have noticed British writers tend to be more attuned to class differences than American authors. I suppose there is more attention on class in the UK.
 

elleoco

Re: Romance fiction is the "heartbeat of change in book culture"
« Reply #24 on: October 20, 2022, 11:29:13 AM »
Or does a writer write and we let the readers sort him out by not buying her stuff?
That's my theory, but the level of historical ignorance is so high any more that I seriously doubt many people give up on an author because of historical inaccuracy. You have to know about something for it to bother you.

LilyBLily

Re: Romance fiction is the "heartbeat of change in book culture"
« Reply #25 on: October 20, 2022, 12:57:32 PM »
Or does a writer write and we let the readers sort him out by not buying her stuff?
That's my theory, but the level of historical ignorance is so high any more that I seriously doubt many people give up on an author because of historical inaccuracy. You have to know about something for it to bother you.

I think that's true of general historical periods. For instance, as I understand it from a Regency FB group, dance cards at balls were not actually a thing in the Regency period. But having learned that, seeing them in a romance doesn't bother me a lot.

On the other hand, a historically inaccurate portrayal of Henry VIII, Anne Boleyn, Katherine of Aragon, or the great and wonderful Elizabeth Tudor makes me want to throw a book across the room--and that author is dead to me from then on. People writing historical fiction about well-known real people would do well to realize that the readers most interested in their books will be those who already know a lot about those historical personages and don't want their personalities or actions traduced for the sake of some nonsense drama. If the authors want to lie, as Philippa Gregory blatantly does (she says so), they'd better write such gripping fiction that we're willing to ignore the false history. Her The Other Boleyn Girl was just that despite some rather questionable plot elements she simply made up.   
 

elleoco

Re: Romance fiction is the "heartbeat of change in book culture"
« Reply #26 on: October 20, 2022, 02:40:26 PM »
On the other hand, a historically inaccurate portrayal of Henry VIII, Anne Boleyn, Katherine of Aragon, or the great and wonderful Elizabeth Tudor makes me want to throw a book across the room--and that author is dead to me from then on.

Sure, but we're talking about romance, which generally doesn't incorporate people who really lived in the period as characters except as background. For me, even with authors I like, if they decide to write something with a non-fictional person as a major character, I skip that book. I used to read a fair number of historical fiction books, but somewhere over the years I lost my taste for reading someone else's idea of what a historical figure was like when no one really knows. But I have no idea how popular those books are with the general reading public. (Nowhere near the romance audience I bet. ;) )

LilyBLily

Re: Romance fiction is the "heartbeat of change in book culture"
« Reply #27 on: October 21, 2022, 12:15:00 AM »
Regency romances sometimes have a brush with the Prince Regent, but his character was well known and there is no need to exaggerate or falsify it--or attempt to make him a major figure in the story. He's there for local color, as it were. Victorian romances set in the early part of her reign occasionally throw in Queen Victoria, but again only for a bit of a scene, nothing intimate or detailed. That's fine. Sometimes, though, people write flouncy historical romances and completely falsify major historical figures, and that is annoying if one knows anything about the historical personage. They'll tend to get a lot more wrong, too, so the story ends up historical only in the sense that the clothing is different from modern day.
   
 

Bill Hiatt

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Re: Romance fiction is the "heartbeat of change in book culture"
« Reply #28 on: October 21, 2022, 12:51:18 AM »
I'm also a white person married to a not white person and while I don't really think I have a super meaningful contribution to discussions of racism, being a white person, I do take issue with a lot of representations of IR relationships... well I don't know that I'd say I take issue per se, more that I take issue with people suggesting there's a right way to engage with race. I also grew up in a very diverse area, with a lot of people from different cultures and different POVs. In a lot of books I read, there's this HUGE gulf between people of two different races and this otherizing that doesn't reflect my experience. That reflects some people's experience and that's okay. But I'd like to see a broader range there too. I see the same thing with the way people (often white people) talk about PoC's relationship to race. It's not true that all PoC think about race one way, the same way it's not true all women think about gender one way, or all gay men think about sexuality one way.

I do think there is a lot of criticism of this in general... but I don't think it often affects authors directly, especially not indie authors. I often pick up older books with VERY ICK content (ooof, I read a legal thriller from the late 90s with so much fetishizing of the Cuban MMC) and I rarely see any criticism. Maybe those books flew under the radar. But I see it in modern books too.

The thing with reviews is: we all get bad reviews by people who either don't understand what we're trying to do or lack information. (i.e. someone corrects an "inaccuracy" that's actually correct). That's okay. People are allowed to have their own opinion.

As an aside, I have noticed British writers tend to be more attuned to class differences than American authors. I suppose there is more attention on class in the UK.
You have lot of good points here! I especially agree with the first paragraph. I think discussions of race and other issues need to be more nuanced than it sometimes is. And I also come from an experience similar to yours in that I've spent years teaching in a school with a diverse staff and an even more diverse student body. Though adolescents are adept at generating conflicts, few of them had anything at all to do with race, and cross-racial friendships were common. If I had no knowledge of US history or the world outside those high school walls, I would have concluded that racial discrimination was not a serious problem. (Sadly, there are large parts of society where it still is.)

A lot of older books are cringeworthy for one reason or another. Personally, I treat old literature in the same way I treat history--I don't cast excessive blame on people for not  living up to moral standards that didn't develop until later. I do commend people if they were ahead of their time. Apparently, Twitter mobs don't go after older material, either. Sometimes, there are controversies over what should be taught in schools.

Huckleberry Finn comes to mind. And there I think that well-meaning people have gotten the book wrong. There are certainly negative racial attitudes in the book, but Twain intends them as examples of what not to do. He's using stealth advocacy because those attitudes were common in his day. (And, having grown up in society in which slavery was the norm, he was very open about his own struggles to free himself of racist attitudes.) Instead of attacking racist attitudes directly, Twain uses the story to undercut them. Jim, the most prominent black character, starts out as a figure of fun, the butt of jokes that aren't funny today. But he ends up being morally the best character in the whole book. Near the end, he risks his own life, or at least freedom, to save someone else. In that way, he contrasts with Pap Finn, who, though white, is completely despicable and, not coincidentally, the most racist character in the entire book. And Huck realizes the truth in a progression intended to mirror Twain's own and perhaps influence others to go through the same process. Tears came to my eyes when Huck, who still believes that helping escaped slaves will send him to Hell (because that's what he was taught) decides he'll go to hell to save Jim. In other words, it's an anti-racist book in an admittedly racist guise. But a lot of modern critics don't see that.
 


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Bill Hiatt

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Re: Romance fiction is the "heartbeat of change in book culture"
« Reply #29 on: October 21, 2022, 12:54:40 AM »
Regency romances sometimes have a brush with the Prince Regent, but his character was well known and there is no need to exaggerate or falsify it--or attempt to make him a major figure in the story. He's there for local color, as it were. Victorian romances set in the early part of her reign occasionally throw in Queen Victoria, but again only for a bit of a scene, nothing intimate or detailed. That's fine. Sometimes, though, people write flouncy historical romances and completely falsify major historical figures, and that is annoying if one knows anything about the historical personage. They'll tend to get a lot more wrong, too, so the story ends up historical only in the sense that the clothing is different from modern day.
 

That's one reason I write fantasy instead of historical fiction (even though I love history). Fantasy is a better genre if one is inspired by history but wants to go in a different direction than history actually went.


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Crystal

Re: Romance fiction is the "heartbeat of change in book culture"
« Reply #30 on: October 22, 2022, 10:37:19 AM »
I (we) have sorta gotten off track...

At the end of the day, I think all genres reflect society and thus reflect societal problems. They just do so in different ways. I'm sure there are some regressive gender roles in say, mysteries and legal thrillers. (Actually, I know there are, cause for some reason, all these books have the same archetype: a middle aged man who is separated or divorced from his wife, who sees himself as a good guy and doesn't contest the separation but doesn't take any blame either (this is not done with self-awareness... more stuff like the guy blaming his wife for taking over the laundry when he did it incorrectly or not taking responsibility for his role in ignoring the marriage bc he works all the time), who has a daughter... always a daughter, cause daughters are more sympathetic. He may or may not be an alcoholic).

But, in this genre, we're more likely to see the reflections of social issues when it comes to the crime, justice, law, policing, etc. As with romance, the author can undercut these issues or reinforce them. Maybe all the Latino men in the book are drug dealers (I know Breaking Bad isn't a book but you know, Breaking Bad (except for the one DEA agent)) or the head of the cartel has a stereotypical fiery temper. Or maybe the investigator mistakenly believes a Latino man is a drug dealer bc of stereotypes. Maybe the villain kills because he's suppressing his homosexuality and it's making him act violently (ick) or maybe the cop's partner is a gay man and it's no big deal at all.
 

Bill Hiatt

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Re: Romance fiction is the "heartbeat of change in book culture"
« Reply #31 on: October 23, 2022, 11:43:59 PM »
True! Literature always has a context, and it always reflects its author and/or society in one way or another.

It's because there are a lot of different forces at work in society that we see variation in romance and other genres.


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LilyBLily

Re: Romance fiction is the "heartbeat of change in book culture"
« Reply #32 on: October 24, 2022, 04:53:15 AM »
True! Literature always has a context, and it always reflects its author and/or society in one way or another.

It's because there are a lot of different forces at work in society that we see variation in romance and other genres.

That's why I know what I write is ephemeral. If I'm writing women's fiction about someone with dementia, the moment there is an effective treatment, my story is out of date. I'd be ecstatic to see that day.
 

Bill Hiatt

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Re: Romance fiction is the "heartbeat of change in book culture"
« Reply #33 on: October 24, 2022, 05:32:49 AM »
True! Literature always has a context, and it always reflects its author and/or society in one way or another.

It's because there are a lot of different forces at work in society that we see variation in romance and other genres.

That's why I know what I write is ephemeral. If I'm writing women's fiction about someone with dementia, the moment there is an effective treatment, my story is out of date. I'd be ecstatic to see that day.
I would be ecstatic as well, but there are so many possible causes that I think it's going to be a while.

Besides, your writing probably has other elements that make it relevant beyond just that one issue. A lot of older literature and literature from other cultures speaks to me even though it was written under circumstances that aren't relevant to mine.


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Lorri Moulton

Re: Romance fiction is the "heartbeat of change in book culture"
« Reply #34 on: October 26, 2022, 06:32:24 AM »
Read and watch romances to write romance. Just like mystery or fantasy...or any other genre.  If you don't really know much about it, then it won't be very easy to write.

I love banter. 1940s movies with Humphrey Bogart and Lauren Bacall.  Almost anything with Cary Grant being witty, especially in Hitchc*ck movies.  I like suspense, romance, mystery, adventure, and fantasy.  Whether they all end up in the same book depends on the original idea...but sometimes, they do.


Lavender Cottage Books publishes Romance, Fantasy, Fairytales, Mystery & Suspense, and Historical Non-Fiction.
https://lavendercottagebooks.com/

https://annaviolettabooks.com/
 

Crystal

Re: Romance fiction is the "heartbeat of change in book culture"
« Reply #35 on: October 26, 2022, 06:40:12 AM »
I don't think a cure for dementia would render a book about the dementia of a loved one irrelevant. Because it would still speak to a historical experience and to other themes. There are other ways to lose someone, similarly. People are still writing and reading historical fiction, after all. It's not like Hamilton was irrelevant because we order figured out how to (initially) organize the US Government.

Read and watch romances to write romance. Just like mystery or fantasy...or any other genre.  If you don't really know much about it, then it won't be very easy to write.

I love banter. 1940s movies with Humphrey Bogart and Lauren Bacall.  Almost anything with Cary Grant being witty, especially in Hitchc*ck movies.  I like suspense, romance, mystery, adventure, and fantasy.  Whether they all end up in the same book depends on the original idea...but sometimes, they do.

Is this where you meant to post this? Cause this isn't really what the thread is about.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2022, 06:46:55 AM by Crystal »