Author Topic: Has Anyone Pulled Their Books from Amazon and Sold Exclusively Outside Amazon?  (Read 2173 times)

Post-Crisis D

Okay, so my Amazon sales haven't been enough to meet the minimum threshold for a check payout and I've just been letting them (slowly) go until they meet whatever the threshold is.

So, yesterday, in the mail, I get a "Notice of Unclaimed Property" with a thing I need to sign to claim the money (which is less than I show they actually owe me) or they'll send it to my state and then I'll have to file with the state to get the money.

So, I log in to my KDP account to see what's what there and, after having to fill out another form with my information as it appears on a government-issued ID and having to give them my phone number which I do not like at all, I check and see that all the money owed has been paid out as of July 6 and 7 using an "UNKNOWN" payment method.

So, the money is no longer there yet they want my bank info.  Um, no?

And the amount paid out via the unknown payment method is more than the amount in the Notice of Unclaimed Funds.

Nice of them to give me advance notice or anything.  Stupid Amazon.

And, apparently, payment by check is no longer an option because I'm guessing this multi-billion-dollar company or whatever they are can't afford to have checks printed.  Poor things.

So, this is all a royal PITA and my first thought is, "Screw you, Amazon, you good for nothing corporate behemoth that should burn alongside Adobe in the fiery pits of Tartarus for all eternity."

So, I'm curious if anyone has gone ahead and just yanked all their books from Amazon and sold elsewhere, including direct or whatnot.
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TimothyEllis

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Sorry, but WTF are you getting cheques for?

The thresholds on those are ridiculous, and completely unnecessary these days. With EFT, if I made 15 cents in a store, I get paid that 15 cents.

Are you sure you logged into Amazon?

Because that sounds to me like a phish scheme.

Did you click a link to go there, or type in the Amazon address yourself?

Honestly, no-one these days should be getting paid by anything other than EFT payments.

I've not used a cheque in nearly thirty years.

As far as yanking is concerned, no, but just going wide for me back in 2017 was a disaster.
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Post-Crisis D

I've always done checks.  If I remember, the threshold was $125 or something so not too bad.

I don't like these companies having my bank details when it's usually unnecessary.  Makes you more vulnerable to data breaches because who knows what lax security companies have.  Seems like some corporation is always getting hacked and personal information is then put out on the dark web.

Not a phishing scheme.  The letter came via mail and I logged in directly to my KDP account, not following any link.
Mulder: "If you're distracted by fear of those around you, it keeps you from seeing the actions of those above."
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alhawke

I use direct deposit. I'm guessing most of us do and you probably are running into trouble because of your different payment method (not to say that it excuses any loss payments). Hope this gets cleared up and they pay you your due.

As far as changing KU to wide, I'm gonna throw out some caution. All the retailers have their issues. Amazon seems to get more issues because they're larger (one current issue is a lag in sales reporting). So, you know, you're gonna run into trouble wide too.

KU to wide? My most successful book was launched with KU four years ago. I had it in KU for their three month period to take advantage of extra Amazon advertising. My title has done fantastic, but part of its success was due to release during covid, I think. And at first, it suffered and languished for a while under wide distribution. You gotta understand that I was already wide.

Another book I released in KU did the same thing. That one is still suffering wide after release versus Amazon. The main reason is that part of a book's popularity is due to its book launch and I believe KU gives an extra boost. That boost is lost in the other markets. That's why I don't intend to launch with KU anymore.

All this is a drawn out way of saying that it's gonna take time to move sales wide if you make this change. You can do it, but it won't necessarily solve problems, particularly with sales.
 
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Lorri Moulton

You can sell directly from your site or store, but you'll probably have to deal with some type of direct deposit.  Stripe, PayPal, etc. 

I like Amazon because they seem to like me. I give almost everyone who deals with me 5 stars...so maybe that helps?  Anyway, if you're not advertising, not in KU, and you don't have any ranking, Amazon is mainly a reader convenience IMHO.

If your readers are happy downloading an epub (or PDF file?) from you...that will work, too.  Maybe even serialize your stories on your blog (or Substack?) if you want to have a paid option.  Again, direct deposit for the most part, but there might be some other alternatives.

ETA: When I say I like Amazon, I mean their reps have been very nice. I prefer talking to a person rather than an AI chat.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2024, 05:43:28 AM by Lorri Moulton »

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If Amazon is phasing out cheque payment, then all I can say is it's way overdue.
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Bill Hiatt

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The thing about hacks is that they're going to happen. Yes, Amazon could be hacked so that your bank details would be exposed--but the bank can also be hacked directly. Up to now, hackers have done that mostly to steal money, but if they wanted info and couldn't get it in other places, they're more than capable.

The best practice at this point is to use an identity protection service. They do cost money, but they monitor and flag suspicious stuff for you. The good ones also provide funds (usually up to one million) to compensate for hacking losses, as well as support to help you restore your credit as quickly as possible.

Decent banks and credit card companies are also pretty good at flagging suspect transactions. In particular, if something unusually large (like a withdrawal in particular) comes through, they'll probably put a hold on it unless you're doing it in person in the bank.

For added protection, you can lock access to your credit records, as well as the ability to open a new utility account or bank account in your name. That doesn't protect you against a hacker trying to siphon money from existing accounts, but it does foil identity thieves trying to use your credentials to set up new accounts. I did that myself some time ago. Note that this isn't a good solution for everyone, particularly if you frequently need to take out loans or something like that. You can unfreeze things, but the transaction takes time.

A recent data breach (from a national database I've never even heard of) exposed millions of social security numbers, including mine. There's nothing to be done about that except to be vigilant. (Getting a new social security number is possible but creates a whole host of problems of its own.) Since I'm already locked up, I'm not too worried.

As far as Amazon is concerned, yes, it sometimes makes odd mistakes. But it also controls a huge chunk of the book market. In the US, 50% of all book sales (including all formats) take place on Amazon. For ebooks, which tends to be where the sales are for indies in most genres, the percentage is even higher, over 80% before Data Guy went behind a paywall. The picture is similar in the UK, Australia, and New Zealand. Even in Canada, where some people had the impression Kobo was bigger than Amazon, it was bigger than in the US, but a majority of ebooks were still sold on Amazon. These figures may have changed some in the last few years, but I doubt in a significant way.

I know people on Substack who are pursuing a non-Amazon strategy. As far as book sales are concerned, they appear to be doing worse than I am, though over the very long-term, that may change. Some of them do make subscription money on Substack. There's a large audience there, though considerably smaller than the purchasing population on Amazon. But building a subscriber base is a slow process unless one can import a huge fan base from elsewhere. I've been there since March 1 and have 221 subscribers, three of whom are paid. Two of those are old friends. My pattern is apparently not uncommon. Exceptions are people who give good writing and marketing advice. (Like everywhere else, subscriptions pour in for them. At least on Substack, the advice is actually good, from what I've seen. Some subscriptions also include coursework and even individual meetings with the advisor.) Also exceptions are celebrities, though on Substack, that means primarily famous journalists in a time when other journalistic opportunities are shrinking, political personalities, and trad pubbed authors. (I've interacted with at least four bestsellers, but there appear to be far more than that.)

Don't get me wrong--I like Substack, and it might provide supplemental income some day. But as a replacement for Amazon sales, it's unlikely. It doesn't hurt to try it out and see what happens. I've made some non-subscription money--but that was from getting Substack friends to buy books on Amazon. That actually works pretty well, sometimes better than AMS ads. But in general, subscription revenue seems to be a slow growth process for most of us.     


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alhawke

Just got this article from written word media. It's talking about how writers on Amazon are "randomly" being selected for identity verification. It's very possible that because you request checks, Post-Crisis, the algos targeted you.?? They have not contacted me yet.

I think this resource might help for many of us:
https://www.writtenwordmedia.com/kdp-identity-verification-requirement-for-authors/
 

Wonder

I haven't pulled my books from Amazon, but I have considered doing so. Ultimately, while I don't like their business practices, I felt I'd be punishing my readers who prefer to shop at the world's largest ecommerce store. I don't do AMS or think much about Amazon. I simply put my books up there for those who want them, and I focus my attention elsewhere.

I empathize with your desire to keep your banking information more private. Definitely. I feel that same annoyance when businesses refuse cash. There's a loss of privacy in forced disclosure, and credit card transactions are far from private.

My solution has been to set up a business bank account and connect it to the various retailers. There's no connection to my personal banking accounts. Unfortunately, there's only so much we can do if we want to participate in the modern marketplace. It stinks, but the alternatives aren't really there for us, so we work with what we have.

Granted, if your books aren't selling the way you'd like, the economic impact from leaving Amazon  might be very small. So it remains a choice you can make, albeit one that will shrink your publishing options. It won't surprise me to see more retailers eliminate check options in the future.

Wonder
 
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Post-Crisis D

I'm not in KDP Select / KU, so anything to do with that doesn't affect me at all.

I do have a separate business bank account that I use for online transactions, but that's in my business (non-books) name so who knows if Amazon would accept that.

They have not asked for a copy of my government-issued ID.  So far, they only asked for my info as it appears on my government-issued ID.  If the day comes when they demand it, I'm pretty sure that's the day when I will tell Amazon to take a flying leap off the nearest skyscraper.
Mulder: "If you're distracted by fear of those around you, it keeps you from seeing the actions of those above."
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Post-Crisis D

So, yesterday, in the mail, I get a "Notice of Unclaimed Property" with a thing I need to sign to claim the money (which is less than I show they actually owe me) or they'll send it to my state and then I'll have to file with the state to get the money.

Did I mention that I need to mail this form back to them?  And also that this corporate behemoth apparently cannot afford to include a return envelope to use to return the signed form to them.
Mulder: "If you're distracted by fear of those around you, it keeps you from seeing the actions of those above."
The X-Files: "Blood"
 

LilyBLily

Did you ever see that comedy sketch in which the punchline was "He wants his grievance"? Because I suspect it is apt here.
 

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So, yesterday, in the mail, I get a "Notice of Unclaimed Property" with a thing I need to sign to claim the money (which is less than I show they actually owe me) or they'll send it to my state and then I'll have to file with the state to get the money.

Did I mention that I need to mail this form back to them?  And also that this corporate behemoth apparently cannot afford to include a return envelope to use to return the signed form to them.

I didn't even know they had a mailing address. Everything I've done has been electronic.

As far as the bank account goes, why not get a Payoneer account, get paid into that, and use the funds through their debit card by just withdrawing cash from an ATM?
Genres: Space Opera/Fantasy/Cyberpunk, with elements of LitRPG and GameLit, with a touch of the Supernatural. Also Spiritual and Games.



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Post-Crisis D

As far as the bank account goes, why not get a Payoneer account, get paid into that, and use the funds through their debit card by just withdrawing cash from an ATM?

For one, I have no idea what Payoneer is, but if that means I'm going to have to open yet another online account somewhere and then get a debit card and then hunt down an ATM and pay ATM fees to get money, that sounds ridiculously complicated.  What next?  Am I going to have to get "666" tattooed on my hand just to get paid?

You know what's simple?  You get a freakin' check in the mail and you deposit that at the bank and you are done.  Easy.
Mulder: "If you're distracted by fear of those around you, it keeps you from seeing the actions of those above."
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As far as the bank account goes, why not get a Payoneer account, get paid into that, and use the funds through their debit card by just withdrawing cash from an ATM?

For one, I have no idea what Payoneer is, but if that means I'm going to have to open yet another online account somewhere and then get a debit card and then hunt down an ATM and pay ATM fees to get money, that sounds ridiculously complicated.  What next?  Am I going to have to get "666" tattooed on my hand just to get paid?

You know what's simple?  You get a freakin' check in the mail and you deposit that at the bank and you are done.  Easy.

Payoneer is the service that gives you a US bank account when you're not in the US. I use it to get paid by Amazon. I download to my own account from there.

I gained the impression you didn't want Amazon knowing your actual bank account. Payoneer is a way around supplying that to them. And the debit card means your bank account is not with Payoneer either.

As far as cheques go, the threshold for them is $100 in EACH STORE, so for most of the stores, you might never actually be paid anything at all.

Cheques can be easily stolen at any place along the journey to you, and cashed by anyone who steals them. And you can't prove to whoever sent them that you didn't get them.

ENT direct into your account is the only timely and safe way of being paid all your royalties.

There's fees no matter how you do it. Even on depositing cheques.

When I first started with Amazon, the first one was done by cheque, and it cost me $25 to get the $100 payment. The wire transfer second one still cost me $25 to get into my account. ENT was the cheapest and most reliable.

You pay fees no matter how you get paid.

The trick is knowing it, and then claiming it on your tax.
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cecilia_writer

I've had spells during recent years when it's been hard to get to the bank, e.g. after breaking my hip, or when our local bank closed. But in any case here in the UK the use of cheques has dwindled away to almost nothing, and even tradesmen want payment by bank transfer unless they are the cash in hand type. I find it slightly annoying that the payments from the different Amazon stores arrive separately in my bank account, even the ones from different countries in the Eurozone, which are miniscule at best! I get payments from Smashwords/D2D in Paypal and they are aggregated into one payment a month. Lately this has been larger than the Amazon payment on occasion as I usually get good sales on Kobo for some reason. I tend to use Paypal to pay for online purchases if I can. Maybe you could consider that kind of thing, or a separate bank account?
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Post-Crisis D

There's fees no matter how you do it. Even on depositing cheques.

My bank doesn't charge anything to deposit a check.
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Bill Hiatt

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Interestingly, my bank is fussy about depositing checks. I'm constantly being reminded that direct deposit is easier, and now the bank waits the full nine days for the funds to be available, even on pension checks issued by a government agency (same amount every month).

I know banks like to ensure that the check is real and hasn't been tampered with, but sometimes, they could expedite the process a little. In one case, my bank was bent out of shape about a large check from another local bank and sent all kinds of weird messages. I'd closed the account with the other bank and (perhaps mistakenly) decided to deposit the funds in my primary bank. The other bank is two blocks away. I would think there might be some way to verify the check that didn't involve so much hair-pulling.

When you deal with large companies, you will always be periodically annoyed by their nonsense. I'm sorry to say this is not unique to Amazon.


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TimothyEllis

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When you deal with large companies, you will always be periodically annoyed by their nonsense. I'm sorry to say this is not unique to Amazon.

I'm surprised Amazon didn't do away with cheques years ago.

Printing cheques is a whole level of complication that isn't necessary anymore.

Even back in the late 90's I was paying business bills and payroll through software and an upload process. It took way less time, and had way fewer complications attached. And zero fraud potential.

I went to online banking the moment it became available.

I know America often lags badly behind Australia in the adoption of tech, but I find this whole talk about cheques bizarre. Sorry D.

Most people here are even more advanced than I am, using their phones to pay for stuff, without needing the actual card. I'm not there yet.

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Post-Crisis D

Checks are just so much easier to deal with.  And, if someone pays $100 with a check, you get $100.  With credit cards and other stuff, someone's taking a percentage of your money.

Neither of the banks we deal with here charges for checks which is good because a lot of people pay by check.

Lately, though, we've had an increase of new customers who pay cash rather than check or credit.
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Bill Hiatt

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The only times I ever write a check are for people working at my house (who generally don't seem inclined to work with electronic payments), and for government stuff like property taxes. Medical providers like checks, but I normally make an electronic request to the bank, who sends the check directly. That also creates a bank record when the check is sent, so that if something goes wrong, it's not just me saying, "But I mailed the check!" I've gotten out of at least three potentially nasty situations because I could verify that the bank sent the check. In every case, the entity involved discovered that it had received the check, after all. But people only kept looking because of the verification.

I also find depositing checks to be a nuisance. My bank, as I mentioned, has a definite preference for direct deposit. There is an app to photograph checks and deposit through the app, but it wasn't designed for old people whose hands are a little shakier. It always takes me a while to get an image the app will accept--and I have to do that twice each check (to capture both sides). It's almost easier to visit the nearest ATM, though that takes more time.



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Post-Crisis D

Okay, fine.  Some of you are a-okay with being assimilated into the Borg collective whereas some of us would really rather not.

But, the key things here are:

a) Amazon gave me no notification whatsoever that this would happen.  I was perfectly content waiting for my earnings to reach the check payout threshold, whatever it was.  But, Amazon gave me no notice that (a) check payouts would no longer be an option and (b) I needed to take my money from my account before they did.

b) The letter I received only pertained to money earned in the U.S. Amazon.com store.  The money earned through Amazon's foreign subsidiaries is also no longer in my account, but those amounts were not included in the letter.  So, what happens to those monies, I have no idea.

c) As I said, they didn't even include a return envelope and certainly not a postage-paid return envelope.  If, by some chance, I am going to have to sign and return letters to foreign subsidiaries, I might as well write off that money as lost since the postage will probably cost more than the monies for each store.
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This sort of thing is happened a lot now.

And it could be the same thing.

The move away from paper and snail mail is getting a lot of momentum.

Anything that sends out paper on a regular basis is trying to end that now, and move it all to emails.

Amazon is just one of many doing it.
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LilyBLily

Even I am moving to less paper from my banks. The paper statements are always days behind, anyway. It seems a waste of paper for some accounts. Not always, though.

I still write checks, but not many. On average, four a month. Very different from in past decades.

I understand the reluctance to hand over an easy conduit for hackers (or Amazon) to your bank account, but more and more, it's impossible to be unconnected electronically. My advice would be to put more than one online account between you and Amazon. For instance, have Amazon pay an online-only account that links to another online-only bank account and then links to your bank. Thus there shouldn't be any fees involved, and hackers would have to break through two accounts to get the opportunity to break into your regular bank account. Can this be done? I don't see why not--unless it'll get you on a money-laundering watch list.

Sometimes, a payor will demand a real address or bank. Kobo wouldn't deal with my online bank; I think the issue was Kobo wanted a physical address. So it pays to my savings account at a physical bank.
 

djmills

I pulled all my books from Amazon years ago. Kept my books on Smashwords and also uploaded all to D2D who then send the eBooks and print books to the selected distributors, including Amazon. Works wonderfully. And I don't have to deal with Amazon requests for phone numbers, etc.

Payments for sales come in to D2D and Smashwords and they send my monthly royalties to Paypal Australia. I then deposit the amounts in Paypal to my bank account. Eventually D2D and Smashwords will be merged and I will only get one monthly royalty payment.

And I don't do online banking or mobile phone banking, etc. Just use a debit card or cash. Or cheque when I need to post an invoice payment. Works for me and no fees charged to me. Except once a year Cheque Book charge.
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Post-Crisis D

Meanwhile, while Amazon apparently no longer lets me get checks for book royalties (again, without notice to me), Amazon Associates still lets me choose checks as a payment option.

:HB
Mulder: "If you're distracted by fear of those around you, it keeps you from seeing the actions of those above."
The X-Files: "Blood"
 

Post-Crisis D

So, yesterday, in the mail, I get a "Notice of Unclaimed Property" with a thing I need to sign to claim the money (which is less than I show they actually owe me) or they'll send it to my state and then I'll have to file with the state to get the money.

Okay, so because I was busy with a lot of other stuff at the time, I never did get around to filling out the stupid form which means Amazon sent it to my state which means now I have to go through whatever process with the state to get that money.

Meanwhile, yesterday in the mail, I got a 1099 from Amazon for the money I haven't actually gotten because it was paid to my state and not me, which means I get to pay taxes on money I don't even have.

And I can imagine that, if I manage to get the money from my state, the state will turn around and hit me with a 1099 on it for this year, which will likely mean I'll end up paying taxes on the money twice.  That's my guess anyway.

I so hate Amazon.
Mulder: "If you're distracted by fear of those around you, it keeps you from seeing the actions of those above."
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writeway

Checks????  :n2Str17:

As for the question, no I would never sell books without them being on Amazon. I love writing, but I also do it to make money and would make no income outside of Amazon so it would be rather pointless. I understand not wanting to be exclusive to Amazon and selling wide, but I don't see the benefit of cutting out the largest American bookseller. There's a reason people don't do this.

And again... checks????  grint

Seriously, checks are unreliable and risky. What would you do if your check got lost in the mail? Would Amazon even track it? The only way I would agree to this is if I couldn't use direct deposit or some other method. Also, I need my money so getting checks 30 days or more after I need the money wouldn't help.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2025, 09:12:45 AM by writeway »
 

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Checks????  :n2Str17:

And again... checks????  grint

Seriously, checks are unreliable and risky. What would you do if your check got lost in the mail? Would Amazon even track it? The only way I would agree to this is if I couldn't use direct deposit or some other method. Also, I need my money so getting checks 30 days or more after I need the money wouldn't help.

I stopped using cheques both personally and for business back in the late 90's. That was after several serious fraud attempts were done on mine.

The payment to use on Amazon is EFT. If you use any of the other options, there are problems with it like thresholds, and the system is by definition flaky.

If you don't use EFT, you have to expect problems. It's that simple.
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Bill Hiatt

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I think I may have said this in another thread, but I hardly ever write checks (and never when I have to mail them). My bank will issue checks for bill payments etc. for me (thus creating a record which has saved me trouble more than once).

Sending anything important through the mail is chancy. Checks coming to me have sometimes gotten lost. Sad, but true.


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Post-Crisis D

If a check gets lost in the mail, the sender can do a stop-payment and issue a new one.  And it doesn't happen that often.

Meanwhile, the more sites that have your banking details, the more vectors of attack for hackers to get at your information.

Anyway, the initial point is that Amazon never gave any advance notice before the letter in the mail that said they were going to send it to my state if I didn't fill out their form and mail it back to them.  I mean, all the times I logged in to check sales, they could have had a notice pop up well in advance.  Second point, they sent the money to my state as "unclaimed funds" which means I never received it and then they issued me a 1099 so I can pay taxes on the money I never received.

So, anyway, since I am still free from the Borg Collective, I have a check to go write out and mail . . .
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Lynn

I did an unclaimed funds search a few months ago, and found that Amazon had sent money to my state. The problem is I don't remember ever having an instance where I didn't get money that I thought Amazon owed me back when I lived at the address they had listed for it. I've lived at my new address for 17 years. I looked into what I needed to do to make the claim for the money and the amount of info and documents I would have to gather to prove my identity was absolutely ridiculous and I let it lapse, and got a notice a couple days ago that the treasury had closed the unclaimed funds claim. But digging up old documents proving my old address when my address changed while I was living there because of changes the post office made was in no way worth $13. That was back in 1997 and 1998. :o

Considering I had an affiliate account with Amazon and then a KDP account and I've never not had an account with updated information with them I have no idea where this money originated from. But yes I agree Amazon clearly does weird things when they think they owe you money.
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Post-Crisis D

Well, in my state, since I have a business, we are required each year to file an unclaimed funds report even if your report (like mine) is for $0.  And there are penalties or fines for not filing your $0 report.
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If a check gets lost in the mail, the sender can do a stop-payment and issue a new one.  And it doesn't happen that often.

Meanwhile, the more sites that have your banking details, the more vectors of attack for hackers to get at your information.

Anyway, the initial point is that Amazon never gave any advance notice before the letter in the mail that said they were going to send it to my state if I didn't fill out their form and mail it back to them.  I mean, all the times I logged in to check sales, they could have had a notice pop up well in advance.  Second point, they sent the money to my state as "unclaimed funds" which means I never received it and then they issued me a 1099 so I can pay taxes on the money I never received.

So, anyway, since I am still free from the Borg Collective, I have a check to go write out and mail . . .
Yes, checks can be reissued. But it's hard to prove "the check's in the mail" in the first place if you have someone claiming you never paid. If the bank is the one issuing the check, you have a third-party record verifying you paid. That's the only point I was making.

As far as having your banking details, a good hacker only needs one vector. The only way to avoid that is to go completely off the grid, have no bank accounts, and only do cash transactions. Since that's highly restrictive and inconvenient, I recommend instead subscribing to an identity protection service, activating two-factor authentication for any sensitive accounts (bank, payment processors, etc.) and, if you are unlikely to need more credit cards, take out a loan, etc. I recommend freezing reporting from all three credit bureaus, as well as the organizations controlling new bank accounts and new utility accounts. That keeps anyone from stealing the financial part of your identity pretty successfully. If needed, you can temporarily unfreeze one of them, though that is probably a hassle.

Final thought:  What if Amazon did send you initial notice, and it got lost in the mail? (I've had stuff like that happen, so I know it's possible.) We've all had at least some bad experiences with Amazon. But Amazon is not the source of every single thing that goes wrong in the world. (Personally, I think the whole system of shifting "unclaimed" funds to the state is completely ludicrous. But Amazon didn't create that system.


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Post-Crisis D

Yes, checks can be reissued. But it's hard to prove "the check's in the mail" in the first place if you have someone claiming you never paid. If the bank is the one issuing the check, you have a third-party record verifying you paid. That's the only point I was making.

But my point is that this is a system that has been in use for probably decades.  And, yes, there are occasional issues, but there are also issues with electronic stuff too, like glitches, crashes, outages, etc.  You can find posts here when people get all panicky when their electronic payment didn't go into their account on the day they expected it.  So, yeah, maybe a check occasionally gets lost in the mail, but stuff happens with electronic payments too.

As far as having your banking details, a good hacker only needs one vector.

Yes, but the more vectors, the more opportunities for the hackers.


Final thought:  What if Amazon did send you initial notice, and it got lost in the mail?

But they couldn't have a notice when I logged in to check my account?
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Yes, Amazon could certainly have done more. But I've dealt with banks who didn't do much either. And I've even had the misfortune to have a bank harass me over a check I wrote to somebody else, wanting me to reclaim the funds before they went to the state. As my lawyer confirmed, those funds don't belong to me. They belong to the person to whom I wrote the check, so that's the person the bank should be nagging. Really, the whole system leaves a lot to be desired.


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Lorri Moulton

Checks aren't used very often, but they can be useful.  I recently had to pay with a check and couldn't find mine...so I had to ask my mom to write it and pay her back.  Not everyone is set up to take debit card payments, and I didn't have enough cash on hand.

Before you ask, one of our horses passed away and had to be taken to his "Viking funeral" as I told the others.

ETA:  Picture of our boy...he was 30 years old and had a wonderful life.

« Last Edit: February 07, 2025, 12:04:10 PM by Lorri Moulton »

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It's always hard to lose an animal you've known for a long time. My condolences!

As for checks, yes, people who do some kind of work at my home (plumbing, painting, etc.) are normally set up only for cash or checks.


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It's always hard to lose an animal you've known for a long time. My condolences!

As for checks, yes, people who do some kind of work at my home (plumbing, painting, etc.) are normally set up only for cash or checks.

Here, no-one takes cheques anymore. Not for home visit services. They do credit card on the spot, or they do electronic transfer from invoice.

The ones still doing cash are deliberately avoiding paying GST, or having a traceable income. There are plenty of people who want to pay less that enable this. That's what cash machines are for.
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I can't speak to the tax status of my painters and plumbers, but it may be that they just want to avoid losing a little money on credit card transaction fees.


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Post-Crisis D

Before you ask, one of our horses passed away and had to be taken to his "Viking funeral" as I told the others.

Condolences on the loss of your horse.


The ones still doing cash are deliberately avoiding paying GST, or having a traceable income.

That's a BS narrative sold by politicians and other miscreants that want to be able to pry into every aspect of our lives and be able to control everything, including, eventually, how we spend our own money.


I can't speak to the tax status of my painters and plumbers, but it may be that they just want to avoid losing a little money on credit card transaction fees.

Exactly.  Either you can apply an extra charge to the customer's bill to cover credit card fees or you can ask them to pay with a check.  As our bank here doesn't charge anything to accept checks for deposit, yeah, I am definitely happy with customers who pay with cash or a check.  It has nothing to do with taxes but everything to do with keeping more of the money you earn.  Every one wants a chunk of your money these days, so if you can cut them out of the transaction entirely, it's all for the better.
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The ones still doing cash are deliberately avoiding paying GST, or having a traceable income.

That's a BS narrative sold by politicians and other miscreants that want to be able to pry into every aspect of our lives and be able to control everything, including, eventually, how we spend our own money.

No, it's not.  :icon_mrgreen:

That's from the lips of tradesmen.

There's a lot here who only work on a cash basis. No records, no GST paid. Cheaper work done.

There's also a lot who will quote for a job properly, and then tell you it can be cheaper if we pay cash.

The government of course wants to stamp this out, which is why there are moves to go to a cashless society. But it won't happen easily, since the cash society here still lives.
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Jeff Tanyard

Sorry about your horse, Lorri.   :icon_sad:
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cecilia_writer

It's always hard to lose an animal you've known for a long time. My condolences!

As for checks, yes, people who do some kind of work at my home (plumbing, painting, etc.) are normally set up only for cash or checks.

Here, no-one takes cheques anymore. Not for home visit services. They do credit card on the spot, or they do electronic transfer from invoice.

The ones still doing cash are deliberately avoiding paying GST, or having a traceable income. There are plenty of people who want to pay less that enable this. That's what cash machines are for.

Same in the UK.
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LilyBLily

Same story in West Virginia. We get quoted a price for cash that does not include sales tax. On a $1,000 job, that's $60 the customer doesn't pay and an obvious tell that the worker does not plan to report that income and pay taxes on it of any kind. A person in business is supposed to charge sales tax and pass it through to the state/city. Even a person working a one-day book fair has to get a state sales tax number and report the income and remit the tax. But the key reportage is for federal income taxes. And clearly, they aren't doing it. They are hiding income.

I resent these guys. Every dime I have ever earned has been reported, and I have paid taxes as required. Why should anybody else try to evade paying taxes?
 

Lynn

In Tennessee, quite a few services are not taxable (such as grass cutting, landscape trimming, hair dressing). Could West Virginia be the same? A quick look at their website shows there are some exempt services (such as hair dressing, services that create capital improvements to real property (probably things like roof installations (materials would be taxed but the labor wouldn't). I could be wrong about specifics, but that's what I got from the PDF I found on the WV gov website.
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LilyBLily

One could make an argument that some of these "country boys" don't want to fool with accounting, and that's why they prefer cash, and of course they report their true earned income to the taxing authorities. But I don't believe that for a second.
 

Post-Crisis D

It used to bug me that people evaded paying their taxes but now that doesn't bug me much at all.  I'm not going to fret over some plumber not paying a few thousand dollars in taxes when politicians or bureaucrats dropped $2 million on Moroccan pottery classes.
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LilyBLily

It used to bug me that people evaded paying their taxes but now that doesn't bug me much at all.  I'm not going to fret over some plumber not paying a few thousand dollars in taxes when politicians or bureaucrats dropped $2 million on Moroccan pottery classes.

Plumbers pay taxes. They also make a very nice living, and I have never met a plumber's assistant yet who wasn't a relative of the guy who owned the business. They keep it in the family. Do not feel sorry for plumbers; they are not poor.

Plenty of people who are blue collar are not poor. Being blue collar does not give them a right to be dishonest--nor does the fact that there always are thieves in every society throughout history give every one of us the right to be thieves, too. That way lies chaos. (And yes, we may be entering chaos times, but this isn't a Roman holiday part of a riot, and let's not start.)

I still write checks. Not as many as I used to, and the government is making it harder to use them. If I pay a cover designer $600 a calendar year by check, I have to issue a 1099. If I use PayPal, I don't. But some designers want me to pay the PayPal fee. Currently, I am trying to establish a Zelle payment account, which also falls under the third-party rule and obviates the need for a 1099. Zelle doesn't take a percentage fee. (What does it live on, air?)
 

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I still write checks. Not as many as I used to, and the government is making it harder to use them. If I pay a cover designer $600 a calendar year by check, I have to issue a 1099. If I use PayPal, I don't. But some designers want me to pay the PayPal fee. Currently, I am trying to establish a Zelle payment account, which also falls under the third-party rule and obviates the need for a 1099. Zelle doesn't take a percentage fee. (What does it live on, air?)

 :icon_think:

Doesn't your bank offer online EFT transfers?

I pay all of my bills online, and doing so doesn't cost me anything. Have been doing that for more than a decade.

And before that I used a downloadable program that used the internet to send the transactions to the bank. That began back in the late 90's.

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