Author Topic: Also Boughts now include sponsored ads  (Read 833 times)

alhawke

Also Boughts now include sponsored ads
« on: January 11, 2025, 03:41:59 AM »
Okay, I set a personal New Years resolution to be positive.  :shrug I'm trying. But I just read this article and had to share it with you cause it's pretty big. It's Hidden Gems' most recent blog. In a nutshell, it claims Amazon is now posting sponsored ads in the also bought section which totally disrupts organic growth sales. Have you seen this? I actually haven't. Your thoughts? I highly recommend you guys read this blog:

https://www.hiddengemsbooks.com/amzs-latest-ad-change-goes-too-far/

I think this is pretty big stuff. You know, being wide, I see every retailer has its methods of discovery. For me, Apple has been pretty abysmal over the past year. Barnes and Noble has been down over the past month, but I've done okay. But I see huge differences in things like reviews. On B&N, I've sold thousands of books only to end up with a handful of reviews. Because the B&N culture of readers really doesn't do reviews like the Amazon . At least for me. My point is, every retailer works differently. But...

Amazon is an Indie writer's bread and butter. I know some have successfully left it and are independent selling direct, but the majority of us, me included, still rely on the retailer to earn sales over any other retailer. Thing is, this appears to be more and more in jeopardy. I don't think direct sales is the answer, because, how do you get enough visibility?--unless you already a large audience garnered.

I'm responding by churning out more books and grouping books into series. Series books, and boxed sets, have been selling better for my romance fantasy genre. I'm also producing audiobooks-- a pricey endeavor. And I carry on. Because I'm happy to know people are reading my stuff. That's huge for me. But I agree with the writer of the blog that these new changes, including changes with the Amazon carousel, hurt organic sales for Indie writers.
 
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Anarchist

Re: Also Boughts now include sponsored ads
« Reply #1 on: January 11, 2025, 04:14:31 AM »
"The first lesson of economics is scarcity: there is never enough of anything to fully satisfy all those who want it. The first lesson of politics is to disregard the first lesson of economics." - Thomas Sowell

"The State is an institution run by gangs of murderers, plunderers and thieves, surrounded by willing executioners, propagandists, sycophants, crooks, liars, clowns, charlatans, dupes and useful idiots -- an institution that dirties and taints everything it touches." - Hans Hoppe

"Virtue is more to be feared than vice, because its excesses are not subject to the regulation of conscience." - Adam Smith

Nothing that requires the labor of others is a basic human right.

I keep a stiff upper lip and shoot from the hip. - AC/DC
 
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alhawke

Re: Also Boughts now include sponsored ads
« Reply #2 on: January 11, 2025, 10:13:14 AM »
Cute kid playing in the sand.  :icon_rofl:
 
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Bill Hiatt

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Re: Also Boughts now include sponsored ads
« Reply #3 on: January 11, 2025, 11:24:30 PM »
I think it's possible Amazon is experimenting. I've checked several books, and not one of them showed an ad in the also bought section (which is now also bought or read, by the way). It's also back up above the related products carousel.

Maybe it's a gradual roll-out. But as of now, I can't see any evidence of it.

Certainly, Amazon does whatever it wants, and organic visibility has gotten worse. But the article makes a good point that an ad, even though it's marked as sponsored, in the also bought section could be construed as false advertising.

Remember when we were all lamenting the demise of the also bought section? That particular funeral proved premature. I'm going to wait to panic until it looks as if Amazon has really committed to this course of action. I will start trying to think of other things I can do, but that's a pretty short list. I've never had much luck wide. Newsletter promos are less and less effective. Social media is basically the corpse of what it once was, with organic engagement effectively strangled (and, uneconomical as they are, AMS ads move books in ways FB ads never did for me.) Direct sales are indeed unlikely to work without a huge fan base. Perhaps we're nearing the point at which I just write for my own enjoyment... 


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alhawke

Re: Also Boughts now include sponsored ads
« Reply #4 on: January 12, 2025, 04:33:09 AM »
Yes, it seems new news with Amazon tends to always be bad news. I think it's because Amazon has been such a gem for Indie writers over the years and that's going away. Amazon is becoming more and more like the other retailers which aren't as profitable.
Direct sales are indeed unlikely to work without a huge fan base. Perhaps we're nearing the point at which I just write for my own enjoyment... 
Well, I'm not giving up yet. I'm grouping older books into series with the intention of selling a lead-in book. This has worked for me for years with my witch series and I have a hunch it will work again. It's the only way to advertise and make money back.

And I'm creating more professionally narrated audiobooks. My audios are selling well wide in libraries and retailers and are becoming a large part of my yearly revenue. The catch with audio is the overhead. They cost a lot of money to produce. AI could offset that, but I think my professionally performed audios are a better sell than AI audio and I'm pretty sure I wouldn't see nearly the profit.

I can do these things in 2025 because I have a large library of books written to play with. If I only had one or two books to sell, it'd be a much harder prospect. Hate to say it, but I also think our old writer advice of producing more and more books holds truer now more than ever in this biz. I literally feel like I'm not only indie writing, but running a publishing company. Whatever comes of it, as I keep saying here and to myself, I'm loving getting my stuff read.
 
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Bill Hiatt

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Re: Also Boughts now include sponsored ads
« Reply #5 on: January 12, 2025, 08:44:36 AM »
Well, you have a good plan, including things that you've tested and that still work for you. And while it is true that just writing more books probably doesn't help by itself, I think it may be a necessary ingredient in the recipe for success.

My general outlook has always been that giving up is never a winning strategy. I think I'm reacting more to my age than to market forces. If I had the same energy I had ten years ago, I'd just keep going. But I'm gradually sliding from full-time hours to part-time. Sigh!


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Lorri Moulton

Re: Also Boughts now include sponsored ads
« Reply #6 on: January 12, 2025, 09:06:21 AM »
My plan is to keep writing until I have a big enough backlist to think about saving up for a BookBub.  I don't want to try one with only a couple of books in a series.  Not with the results I've been reading about lately and not with my G to PG books.

I write in different genres, and while some may think that dilutes the brand...it is my brand.  It's also why I'm still here.  If I had to write in one genre (or worse, one niche) all the time, I would have quit by now.  Variety keeps me engaged. 

So, that has become my brand.  I have no idea how effective it is, but I enjoy it.  I know everyone has things to deal with, but for me...I wouldn't be doing this if it wasn't fun. 
(Image courtesy of Pinterest)


Author of Romance, Fantasy, Fairytales, Mystery & Suspense, and Historical Non-Fiction @ Lavender Cottage Books
https://lavendercottagebooks.com/
 
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alhawke

Re: Also Boughts now include sponsored ads
« Reply #7 on: January 12, 2025, 09:14:05 AM »
With BookBub, that's a big consideration. I've applied with single novels and I'm kind of happy they've declined those. These days, the money spent on promotions only really comes back to you, even with BookBub, if you have more books to sell in series. Same goes for Chirp BookBub audio deals.
 
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writeway

Re: Also Boughts now include sponsored ads
« Reply #8 on: February 06, 2025, 09:19:44 AM »
Yep. I called this about 5 years ago. Knew this would happen and ABs have been useless for the last few years, anyway. Amazon keeps messing with them and half the time books in your ABs are not even the same type you write.

My tip to all authors is to STOP depending on Amazon or whoever for visibility. Do things from your end to sustain visibility in these places. You cannot count on anyone else's algorithm. Just look at how Amazon and FB constantly change their system from one month to the next. Promote and market yourself in a way you will always be seen. Most of the benefits Amazon had for visibility don't even apply anymore. Just too many authors and changes now.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2025, 09:22:16 AM by writeway »
 

Bill Hiatt

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Re: Also Boughts now include sponsored ads
« Reply #9 on: February 07, 2025, 12:28:22 AM »
It's true we shouldn't rely too much on Amazon--but other options are limited. Most social media platforms have strangled organic visibility, forcing authors (and small business in general) to burn money on ads to get any visibility at all.

Substack (because it doesn't sell ads) is still a decent option, though it can also create workflow issues. I do sell books to people I've met there, but one has to care about generating subscription income, at least a little. The only way Substack makes money is through its cut of subscription revenues, and the guidelines make clear that you can't have a substack just to promote an outside business. For us, that means you can't use a substack just to run ads. And to get subscribers (and visibility), you need to have a reliable content stream. That doesn't necessarily have to be additional work; some people serialize their WIPs, though that has some potential drawbacks. But to the extent that you generate Substack-only content, that becomes extra work, and people expect more depth than in a typical social media post.

I have tried Bookbub ads (not featured deals, which I never get), and the results haven't been great. I'm trying Book Shepherd and gotten a little bit. There's promise there, but the system is still under development.


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PJ Post

Re: Also Boughts now include sponsored ads
« Reply #10 on: February 07, 2025, 02:01:38 AM »
Most social media platforms have strangled organic visibility, forcing authors (and small business in general) to burn money on ads to get any visibility at all.

Nope. This is a myth.

Consistent content + time is how social media works.

Social media is not an promotions advertising platform, which is why it routinely fails for most writers.

eta: clarity
« Last Edit: February 07, 2025, 06:59:49 AM by PJ Post »
 

alhawke

Re: Also Boughts now include sponsored ads
« Reply #11 on: February 07, 2025, 02:51:17 AM »
I'm trying Book Shepherd and gotten a little bit. There's promise there, but the system is still under development.
What's Book Shepherd??? :icon_think: Never heard of it.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2025, 02:56:02 AM by alhawke »
 

Bill Hiatt

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Re: Also Boughts now include sponsored ads
« Reply #12 on: February 07, 2025, 05:04:28 AM »
Most social media platforms have strangled organic visibility, forcing authors (and small business in general) to burn money on ads to get any visibility at all.

Nope. This is a myth.

Consistent content + time is how social media works.

Social media is not a promotions platform, which is why it routinely fails for most writers.
No, it's very real.
https://www.convinceandconvert.com/social-media/this-chart-explains-the-reachpocalypse-and-why-facebook-is-laughing-all-the-way-to-the-bank/
Quote
This chart we made shows Facebook?s declining organic reach (according to a widely cited study(Open Link in new window) from Social@Ogilvy) charted against Facebook?s stock price during the same period. As organic reach dropped from approximately 12% to 6% (and now often at 1%), Facebook?s stock price moved from nearly $50 to nearly $70, adding billions of dollars in market capitalization.

Yes, Facebook encouraged businesses to build and reach audiences for ?free? on their platform (until that free ride ended), and that should be no surprise whatsoever. Clear-eyed business observers have been raising the alarm about building your house on rented land for years, but Facebook has still been able to pull off the greatest Gillette scam ever (you give away the razor, and then sell the blades).
https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/why-organic-reach-declining-2024-alternatives-vassi-rangelova-im7wf/
Quote
The decline of organic reach is primarily due to evolving social media algorithms that prioritize user experience over brand exposure, along with the platforms? push towards monetization through paid advertising.
These are just a couple of the literally thousands of articles on the subject.

But I don't have to rely just on that because I've lived it. When I first started out, I was consistently posting substantive material on both FB and Twitter on a regular basis and getting a lot of interaction. Then FB reduce the amount of material that people saw from pages they liked. Then it insisted that they follow the page as well as like it. Then, as far as I can tell, they still showed material only to people who interacted almost constantly. I used to get more interaction for free than I now get with paid ads unless I spend an unrealistic amount of money on them. And when I did buy paid ads, they used to be more effective.

Reachpocalypse was real. It happened. If you're still doing well on social media, great. There are always outliers. But based on my experience, I'd have to spend more time doing social media than I spend writing--by far--and still not get as much out of it as I used to. Celebs and big brands mostly embraced the paid model. But for people and businesses with smaller budgets, social media became less and less fruitful. Honestly, even AMS ads are more effective now.

Most social media platforms have gone down this road. One exception is Substack, which sells no ads. 


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Bill Hiatt

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Re: Also Boughts now include sponsored ads
« Reply #13 on: February 07, 2025, 05:24:24 AM »
I'm trying Book Shepherd and gotten a little bit. There's promise there, but the system is still under development.
What's Book Shepherd??? :icon_think: Never heard of it.
https://shepherd.com/
It's an innovative platform designed to get readers and authors together. Readers who wish can submit a list of their favorite books and why they like them. Authors can submit lists of favorite books and why they like them. All of these books and lists become available to anyone using the site, and they are tied together. So if a reader visits the page for a particular book, they find links to some of the authors who recommended it and their work. (Authors would do well to recommend books in the same genre in which they write.)

I'm not explaining this very well. Here's a sample for someone who looks up one of the books I recommended, The Demon's Apprentice. Below is my recommendation, followed by an ad for one of my books. Then there is a section of similar books, a list of related book lists, and a list of possible topics. https://shepherd.com/book/the-demons-apprentice

Books are searchable by genre, by topic, by title, by author, and by age level. Over time, authors can submit several lists. They can qualify for perks if they become founding members, which is a relatively cheap annual fee.

Is it worth it? The jury is still out. I have gotten some sales I can't account for that might be from there. The sight isn't Goodreads, but it gets a fairly large amount of traffic.

You can find out more about it on Ben Fox's substack (which uses its own domain name) https://build.shepherd.com/

He has ambitious plans. I would say Shepherd looks potentially promising. It's worth looking at.


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alhawke

Re: Also Boughts now include sponsored ads
« Reply #14 on: February 07, 2025, 05:46:03 AM »
I'm trying Book Shepherd and gotten a little bit. There's promise there, but the system is still under development.
What's Book Shepherd??? :icon_think: Never heard of it.
It's an innovative platform designed to get readers and authors together. Readers who wish can submit a list of their favorite books and why they like them. Authors can submit lists of favorite books and why they like them.
Thanks for reviewing. I'll take a look.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2025, 05:48:38 AM by alhawke »
 

PJ Post

Re: Also Boughts now include sponsored ads
« Reply #15 on: February 07, 2025, 06:14:15 AM »
No, it's very real.

Sorry. Yes, organic growth has changed* from what it was (for example, followers don't see your stuff on FB; I get it, I lived it too), but it's still there in the background - a backdoor, so to speak. We just need to learn how to use it.

Most platforms are shifting to an interest-based algorithm like TikTok. Theses are pretty good at matching people up with things they like. You don't need to buy ads.

Lots of consistent content drives the algorithm to make you discoverable to your target market - but only if you are consistent. If you upload lots of different stuff the algorithm won't know what to do with you, so you go nowhere. It's math.

Social media brand management works - sometimes just a little, and sometimes a whole lot. But it always takes time.

It gives us far more control than most promotional campaigns. AMS still good if you know how to work the levers.

___

*Pretty sure I've posted a few videos about this in the last few months.
 
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Post-Crisis D

Re: Also Boughts now include sponsored ads
« Reply #16 on: February 07, 2025, 06:59:56 AM »
Do we have any first-hand accounts from authors we know that are successfully using social media and not buying ads in order to organically sell books in sufficient quantities to earn a livable income?
Mulder: "If you're distracted by fear of those around you, it keeps you from seeing the actions of those above."
The X-Files: "Blood"
 

PJ Post

Re: Also Boughts now include sponsored ads
« Reply #17 on: February 07, 2025, 07:15:48 AM »
Do we have any first-hand accounts from authors we know that are successfully using social media and not buying ads in order to organically sell books in sufficient quantities to earn a livable income?

No idea.

But we have first hand accounts from lots of not-writers who are successfully using social media to sell tons of other stuff in sufficient quantities as to earn a livable income.

What is it that makes writers so precious that what works for the entire business world won't work for us?

That's just silly.

___

Also, I never said that we should use social media instead of ads. I said we don't need ads to use social media successfully. I'm on record here (kind of a lot) saying that we should use every single tool we've ever heard of and that we should always be on the look out for more. I'm a big believer in synergy.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2025, 07:19:05 AM by PJ Post »
 

Post-Crisis D

Re: Also Boughts now include sponsored ads
« Reply #18 on: February 07, 2025, 08:02:56 AM »
But we have first hand accounts from lots of not-writers who are successfully using social media to sell tons of other stuff in sufficient quantities as to earn a livable income.

But despite hearing this kind of advice for well over a year, we still have not one identifiable author successfully doing it?  Not one?  Maybe we can find someone successfully selling jewelry or shoes or 3D sculptures of your pet from a photograph, but not one single author?


What is it that makes writers so precious that what works for the entire business world won't work for us?

That's just silly.

Silly is assuming it will work when, after over a year, we still do not have a single first-hand account from any author we know that is successfully using social media to sell enough books to make a livable income.

Franchising works for lots of businesses.  Maybe it will work for my books too.  If anyone wants to have a go at opening a franchise store for selling my books, I would consider offering you franchise rights for an opening franchise fee of $25,000, plus the greater of 5% of gross monthly revenues or $1,500, plus 5% of gross revenues per month to go towards national advertising campaigns.  Who wants to give it a go?
Mulder: "If you're distracted by fear of those around you, it keeps you from seeing the actions of those above."
The X-Files: "Blood"
 

Bill Hiatt

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Re: Also Boughts now include sponsored ads
« Reply #19 on: February 07, 2025, 08:57:32 AM »
One potential difference between authors and some other businesses is that indie authors are typically solo acts. Some small businesses would be in the same boat. But a lot of larger businesses can employ strategies that would be too time-consuming for us. Or, as one article suggested, they can reach a wider audience through their employees.

When it comes to social media, it may be true that all products are basically the same in terms of being able to reach the public, but certainly, some companies have more resources than others.

And yes, like Post-Crisis D, I like relevant examples that I can study in detail. The famous authors that I can find on FB are typically just promoting their books, which I thought wasn't supposed to be a good strategy. So no help there.


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PJ Post

Re: Also Boughts now include sponsored ads
« Reply #20 on: February 07, 2025, 10:54:22 PM »
...some companies have more resources than others.

Yes. Social media is a lot of work.


Quote
And yes, like Post-Crisis D, I like relevant examples that I can study in detail.

I get it, but authors who do this don't appear to be sharing and I have no time to do the research.

So, tell me again what moving production line did Henry Ford study before he invented the moving production line? Or which printing press did Guttenberg use as a model?

Sometimes we have to think for ourselves.
 

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Re: Also Boughts now include sponsored ads
« Reply #21 on: February 08, 2025, 12:07:53 AM »
Quote
I get it, but authors who do this don't appear to be sharing and I have no time to do the research.

So, tell me again what moving production line did Henry Ford study before he invented the moving production line? Or which printing press did Guttenberg use as a model?

Sometimes we have to think for ourselves.
With regard to the first part, I think some of us are frustrated by assumptions being presented as fact. Having spent a large part of my professional life working 10-12 hour days on weekdays and 4-5 hours on the weekend, I totally sympathize with not having enough time. That was me for over thirty years of my life. Being a successful author obviously takes a lot of time, and we all have to deal with personal stuff on occasion. I totally get why you wouldn't have time to do a lot of research. (Although what you would research if none of the authors involved are talking, I'm not sure.)

But (yes, there's always a but!) claiming that something must be true without having the data to back it up is not especially persuasive. It reminds me a little of Aristotelean science. Aristotle created a scientific system based on what seemed logical. It's logical that heavier objects would fall faster--except that they don't. Actual experimentation proved Aristotle wrong on a number of assumptions.

As for Henry Ford,
Quote
In October 1913, Henry Ford introduced the moving assembly line at the Highland Park factory in Michigan. The moving assembly was inspired by other industrial companies that used similar production processes, which could be found in bakeries, mills, breweries, and meat packing plants.
(emphasis mine)
https://guides.loc.gov/this-month-in-business-history/October/Ford

In other words, Ford applied the already existing principle of a moving assembly line to the automotive industry. But he certainly didn't dream it up out of thin air.

The printing press, too, is a product of long evolution. https://jhfrench.com/blog/the-printing-press-invention-history-important-dates-amp-facts

That's not to say that no one ever made a big leap forward. But for every big leap forward, one can find all kinds of leaps sideways or even backwards. That's why new approaches need to be tried out. It's normally possible to find someone enthusiastic about a different approach who wants to try it out. (For example, you in this particular case.) That's a way to gather hard data which can then be reported back. That doesn't even mean a whole bunch of numbers. General trends would probably be enough. I know we are often shy about sharing our experiences, but leading and/or teaching by example is one of the most effective methods.

It's logical to think exposure on social media would be a good thing. But as the social media landscape change, such exposure became more costly, so the question naturally arises, is it worth it? The answer is sometimes. I think at least one author on here has had good results with FB ads. But that's hardly a universal experience. Before they were practically required, I used to spend a lot of time designing FB ads, testing them, etc. I found they did FB things, like getting people to like my page, very well. But for book sales, they did almost nothing in the short term. As I've mentioned, I also posted consistently and spent a lot of time curating what I posted. I gave up only when it became apparent that all that effort was getting me nothing. It had originally gotten me a fair number of people who became fans, but as Reachpocalypse continued, that effect faded to zero, so you'll understand my wanting actual data before I plunge headlong into doing the same thing that didn't work for me before.

And yes, the algorithms do have a content-based component. But that still means in practice that people need to constantly engage with my content in order to get shown more of it. And most platforms, still wanting to sell ads, will make sure that part isn't as effective as it could be.

This leaves us in the realm of opportunity costs. Every hour I spend on social media could be an hour I spend more productively doing something else. So it's not just that social media needs to demonstrate that it has some marginal benefit. It needs to demonstrate that such a benefit outweighs what other uses of my time could do (like, say, focusing on Substack, which doesn't strangle organic growth). For a better explanation of this idea, I recommend Cal Newport's Deep Work, which explains, among other things, that social media is not as valuable as sometimes argued. To be fair, none of his examples are indie authors, but he does provide evidence that professionals and companies often do better with less social media--the assumptions about its value often overestimate its actual results.

Having worked in education for so many years had made me cynical about sweeping claims without much data. Unfortunately, education tends to be fad driven. A lot of administrators, looking toward their next job or their next promotion, want to bring the Next Big Thing to their campus or district. The Next Big Thing always sounds logical. It gets adopted, districts spend money from their already strapped budgets to train people to use it--and then, more often than not, it does a slow and painful death because it doesn't produce the advertised results. But it's okay, because there's always another Next Big Thing to take its place. The districts that do the best tend to be the ones which wait until there's a significant amount of research supporting a new approach before going all in on it. Pilot programs have a purpose (besides alliteration).

This is why I'm skeptical about some ideas presented without real data. It's earned skepticism.


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Post-Crisis D

Re: Also Boughts now include sponsored ads
« Reply #22 on: February 08, 2025, 04:25:50 AM »
I get it, but authors who do this don't appear to be sharing and I have no time to do the research.

But you have time to post, argue and insist that it works without the evidence to back it up?


With regard to the first part, I think some of us are frustrated by assumptions being presented as fact.

:tup3b

I think a lot of us are willing to put in the work to be successful or to increase sales or whatever, but, at the same time, since time is limited, we want to be sure that we are using that time for things that will be effective, for things that matter.  Busy work is not appealing.  Productive work is what we want to be able to spend our limited time on.


This is why I'm skeptical about some ideas presented without real data. It's earned skepticism.

A long time ago, at The Place That Shall Not Be Named, I remember an author that always insisted that to be a successful author you must do these certain things.  In plenty of threads there where people were asking how to sell more books and so forth, he would argue that you must do these certain things.  If you are not doing them, you will not be successful.  When pressed, a lot of times this author could not produce comparable examples but would insist that you must do these certain things because that is what successful authors do.  And this author was not a big name but bigger names would agree with said author and others would agree as well.  You must do these certain things or you will not be successful.  End of story.  Not worth debating.  You had to do these certain things.

I eventually tuned that author out and stopped paying attention.  Also, said author's books weren't rising in the charts either.  One would assume if someone is so insistent on doing these certain things, they must be doing them.  And if you must do these certain things to be successful, said author should be a roaring success, right?

Some time later, as in years later, said author admitted that these certain things were not working for them, had never worked for them and they had only been parroting what others had said must be done because they seemed to make sense and they seemed logical so said author agreed that, yes, you must be doing these certain things to be a successful author.  Said author admitted they were wrong to parrot that information, to not have any evidence or firsthand knowledge that any of these certain things worked and so on.

So, yeah, when someone says you have to do these certain things they outline and have no evidence that it works and can only offer apples and oranges comparisons to demonstrate their supposed effectiveness, color me skeptical.

Additionally, I have too many years of experience participating in marketing forums where people peddle all sorts of schemes and promises that "guaranteed" to help you sell more stuff and make more money and a lot of them do so without any evidence, proof that any of it actually works, or they have one example where it worked and assume it will work for anything or everything else.  Because stuff is stuff and selling is selling and whatever.

So, no, I don't want to hear theories or apples and oranges comparisons or but ifs or whatever.  I want to see apples vs. apples comparisons and I want verifiable information and examples.  And in well over a year of theories and arguments and conjectures, we have yet to see any concrete proof that any of these schemes will work for selling books.

Basically, all we get is the promise of "exposure" in exchange for putting time and effort into writing stuff for free.

"Exposure" doesn't pay the bills unless maybe you're a stripper.
Mulder: "If you're distracted by fear of those around you, it keeps you from seeing the actions of those above."
The X-Files: "Blood"
 

Bill Hiatt

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Re: Also Boughts now include sponsored ads
« Reply #23 on: February 08, 2025, 05:04:17 AM »
Ah, that's the dilemma. We agree that we need data--but it is hard to come by.

I understand people's reluctance to share all their data in a public forum. And companies like Amazon don't ever provide an big picture data at all. We can get a rough idea of how different genres are doing, but that's about it. As far as how individual authors are doing, we can look for people that rank well and get reviewed well on Amazon and elsewhere, and we can make educated guesses about why based on the books themselves, their covers, the author's social media presence, etc. We don't necessarily know if they use AMS ads unless the ads pop up while we're poking around. Same with other kinds of ads. There may be other things about their secret sauce that aren't discernible from any public detail.

So a lot of research might get us to the educated guess level.

I suppose we all need to keep experimenting. We might not know if someone would work universally--but we can tell if it works for us.

We also know general things, like creating quality products and branding them well. (Although how to brand them is still something requiring quite a bit of thought.


Tickling the imagination one book at a time
Bill Hiatt | fiction website | Facebook author page |
 

Lorri Moulton

Re: Also Boughts now include sponsored ads
« Reply #24 on: February 08, 2025, 07:22:48 AM »
Social media works for branding. Does it work for sales? Not sure.  I guess it depends on who follows you, what the brand emphasizes, if it's a direct or indirect relationship, etc.

My only "presence" consistently is on Facebook.  Right now, ugh...it's really slow.  Elections do that, and all the noise isn't helping.  I do think there is an opportunity every time we have these meltdowns for authors to get some followers by NOT being one of those posters.  (Unless their books and sales lean into all that.  Mine do not.)  Whether it lasts probably depends on what we post.

I do well with branding.  I do well with free ebooks.  As for sales, Kickstarter has been better...but we can also charge a lot more.  So far, the 99c book blasts haven't hit there from what I can tell, but as saturation continues, it's definitely becoming a visibility issue.  Like all platforms.  And that might be why some people don't like to share their ideas and what works for them.

Author of Romance, Fantasy, Fairytales, Mystery & Suspense, and Historical Non-Fiction @ Lavender Cottage Books
https://lavendercottagebooks.com/
 

Post-Crisis D

Re: Also Boughts now include sponsored ads
« Reply #25 on: February 08, 2025, 07:51:49 AM »
Unfortunately, "branding" is another word, like "exposure", tossed around when results can't be measured.  You could spend a bunch of time and/or money on doing things that cannot show any measurable results and the excuse will be made that you're "building your brand."

If you're making money selling things, you may be able to justify spending a percentage of profits on things to build or expand your brand.

If you're not making money, you need to focus on things that will sell stuff, not on flushing good money and time down the "branding building" drain.  If "brand building" efforts cannot demonstrably sell things, you need to focus on efforts that can and do.
Mulder: "If you're distracted by fear of those around you, it keeps you from seeing the actions of those above."
The X-Files: "Blood"
 

Bill Hiatt

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Re: Also Boughts now include sponsored ads
« Reply #26 on: February 08, 2025, 08:14:16 AM »
To me, branding is a way of organizing what you do around a particular focus. In other words, I don't do anything just for branding. I have my brand (image I want to project) in mind, and I make sure that everything I do to advertise (product description, cover, ad copy when I run ads, posts, etc.) is consistent with that brand. If I were doing a lot on social media, I'd have the same focus there.

What goes into branding: genre, themes, messages (if any), things you want to connect with your books because of similarities. Some people might also add the way readers feel about you. Some people do react to who an author is, so author bio can be important. However, my branding focuses more on the literature and only tangentially on me if I'm doing something where my bio is relevant.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2025, 11:45:19 PM by Bill Hiatt »


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Lorri Moulton

Re: Also Boughts now include sponsored ads
« Reply #27 on: February 08, 2025, 09:02:42 AM »
Branding can be about selling books...if that's the primary reason you're building a brand.  Author A wants to sell books, so Author A establishes their entire brand around selling books.  That's a worthwhile endeavor for obvious reasons.

However, branding can be about other things as well.  Perhaps, Author B wants to build their brand around their business, which INCLUDES selling books but is not the only focus.  That branding might be very different than Author A.

Before everyone asks why would AUTHOR B want to do that, I say there are many things we "might" do with our stories and everything that revolves around our stories.  Beyond that, I'm not going to get specific. 

We can definitely agree to disagree (again, I'm not giving specifics on my strategy regarding this), but I do think it's important to at least entertain the idea that building a brand specifically to sell books does NOT have to be the only reason we build a brand.  Just something to consider whether it applies to our own business plans or not.

Author of Romance, Fantasy, Fairytales, Mystery & Suspense, and Historical Non-Fiction @ Lavender Cottage Books
https://lavendercottagebooks.com/
 
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Lynn

Re: Also Boughts now include sponsored ads
« Reply #28 on: February 08, 2025, 09:18:45 AM »
The way I look at it is that brand building should follow purpose.

If you want to sell books first and foremost, you need to write some books and find out what sells for you (maybe you have a certain style that isn't fit for some genres even if that's what you like best so that'll be when you have to decide your purpose: write what you want, accepting that sales might be in second place, or write what you can sell (not what someone else can sell because those aren't the same thing at all)), then build up your image around that so that people come back to you for that thing you're doing your best to sell.

Your purpose really does put everything in its place. That doesn't mean you can't maximize as you go down the list from primary purpose to secondary.... Or that your purpose as a writer might be different from your purpose as a publisher. (You really do have two jobs/businesses to consider as a self-publisher, sometimes many more.)

If your purpose is to write books that might be picked up by a school or library, you need to build a brand around that, and so you won't wait until you're seeing sales, you'll want to go in with a brand that fits what they'll want and decide how to make that work. You'll pick what to write based on this purpose and sales will naturally have to come second even if you want to maximize them.

You can't really brand yourself however you want without making those choices about purpose for yourself, even unintentionally.

It's just a series of choices. The brand follows that first choice, which is your purpose.
Don't rush me.
 
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Bill Hiatt

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Re: Also Boughts now include sponsored ads
« Reply #29 on: February 08, 2025, 11:53:37 PM »
Branding can be about selling books...if that's the primary reason you're building a brand.  Author A wants to sell books, so Author A establishes their entire brand around selling books.  That's a worthwhile endeavor for obvious reasons.

However, branding can be about other things as well.  Perhaps, Author B wants to build their brand around their business, which INCLUDES selling books but is not the only focus.  That branding might be very different than Author A.

Before everyone asks why would AUTHOR B want to do that, I say there are many things we "might" do with our stories and everything that revolves around our stories.  Beyond that, I'm not going to get specific. 

We can definitely agree to disagree (again, I'm not giving specifics on my strategy regarding this), but I do think it's important to at least entertain the idea that building a brand specifically to sell books does NOT have to be the only reason we build a brand.  Just something to consider whether it applies to our own business plans or not.
Yes, if an author has additional merch or something like that, it's logical that the branding would include that. As I recall, your virtual tea parties create a lot of potential openings for that.

I've seen people on Substack give recipes for the food that appears in one of their stories. But if it were something that could be pre-packaged, I suppose they might be able to sell it.

Pretty much anybody could do something like book cover T-shirts. (I priced something like that once, and at the time, it could be done relatively cheaply, though it's probably more expensive now.) I didn't do it only because the people requesting it were all in Europe, and international shipping adds tremendous expense. But for an author whose fanbase is mostly in one country, it might be worth considering. I suspect you'd need a decent sized fanbase as well. 


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Post-Crisis D

Re: Also Boughts now include sponsored ads
« Reply #30 on: February 09, 2025, 08:06:58 AM »
Pretty much anybody could do something like book cover T-shirts. (I priced something like that once, and at the time, it could be done relatively cheaply, though it's probably more expensive now.) I didn't do it only because the people requesting it were all in Europe, and international shipping adds tremendous expense. But for an author whose fanbase is mostly in one country, it might be worth considering. I suspect you'd need a decent sized fanbase as well.

There are lots of on-demand options for t-shirts now.  And with many you only pay when you get an order.  Some require payment upfront while others will handle the sale for you and keep a percentage.

The highest cost is usually the proper licensing for the image(s) to be used on the t-shirt.  That is, there is no cost if you created the image yourself, but if you used stock art or paid an artist, you have to have a license that covers using the image(s) for sale on merchandise like t-shirts.
Mulder: "If you're distracted by fear of those around you, it keeps you from seeing the actions of those above."
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Bill Hiatt

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Re: Also Boughts now include sponsored ads
« Reply #31 on: February 09, 2025, 10:48:19 PM »
Yeah, the license is usually an extended one rather than a standard one for images on merch, book covers being an exception. And that issue is complicated if you have a cover designer who has used one or more stock images and want to use the book covers on merch. You'd probably have to work through the designer to ensure that you had the right permissions.


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PJ Post

Re: Also Boughts now include sponsored ads
« Reply #32 on: February 10, 2025, 02:42:55 AM »
Let's try again. Branding from experts...








The longer version:



___

From Google:

Quote
Confirmation bias is the tendency of people to favor information that confirms or strengthens their beliefs or values and is difficult to dislodge once affirmed.

Something to think about.
 

Lorri Moulton

Re: Also Boughts now include sponsored ads
« Reply #33 on: February 10, 2025, 05:41:56 AM »
This is why branding is so difficult to define.  It's always what it's not...this reminds me so much of the social media classes I took in college.  No one can seem to define brand in a way that's easy to understand.

Branding is what people say about your product/service when you're not in the room is another way I've heard it described.

This is not really helpful when a person is trying to create a brand or add to a brand.

So, I'm just going to say...come up with what you want people to think about when they read your books.  How do you want them to feel?  Scared?  Intrigued?  Seduced?  Happy?  Reassured?  Always entertained?  This is what branding eventually accomplishes, but how do we get there?

If it was easy, I think someone would say, Branding is X.  It's easy to describe X, so here's how you do it.  Still haven't found any of those examples.  If someone has one, please add it to the conversation.  :angel:

For me, branding is overall for the business, then changes focus slightly for each genre, then gets more specific for each series and book.  If you know what you want people to associate with your business, that's a great start.  How do we get there? 

Either we have an idea right when we start, or we try to constantly work on the brand as we go.  If we start with a brand (and never change it) that can narrow our focus to the point where there isn't much room for anything new or outside of our original brand. This works very well for some people...I would get bored.

For me, I need to have room to be more creative, so I try to stay on brand in a general sense, but I'm always tweaking it to include new things.  And that's why it's not "JUST" about the books.  The books change, my ideas change, what I want to say years from now will not be the same thing I'm saying today.   

If something is just too far away from my brand, THEN I consider putting it under another author name or even another umbrella/business.  So far, that last bit hasn't happened, but if I decided to suddenly change to erotic romance, my brand would be over. That would have to go under an entirely new name, business, website, etc. because those stories would not be what people expect to find when they see my books, products, etc.

So, that's why branding isn't easy to define.  I will leave you with one of my favorite examples of branding and actually my inspiration (even though I don't write children's books) because it's just such a cool site.  Of course, I use lavender instead of turquoise, but this website is wonderful.  Carry on and best of luck with branding!

https://peterrabbit.com/

Author of Romance, Fantasy, Fairytales, Mystery & Suspense, and Historical Non-Fiction @ Lavender Cottage Books
https://lavendercottagebooks.com/