Author Topic: Where'd everybody go?  (Read 18600 times)

Lynn

Where'd everybody go?
« on: December 07, 2019, 05:27:04 AM »
I'm just going to come out and ask, was there a big exodus sometime around October?

I was posting, had a birthday and didn't post for a few days because I was busy, came back and found that a lot of posters I was used to seeing post weren't posting anymore.

??

Now the place is barely limping along.

:(

Maybe I shouldn't ask, but I figured why not. I'd rather not see the forum die off just when I finally start posting again myself! :D
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JRTomlin

Re: Where'd everybody go?
« Reply #1 on: December 07, 2019, 05:31:46 AM »
I think it's just a busy time of the year and the forum is small enough for that to be noticeable. But I could be wrong. I kind of come and go. Sometimes I post quite a bit but I have also gone a couple of months without posting. it depends on what else I'm involved with and how busy I am. My Christmas shopping is done and I am just getting into writing another novel, so I'm faffing about here.
 
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Jeff Tanyard

Re: Where'd everybody go?
« Reply #2 on: December 07, 2019, 05:45:21 AM »
I think it's just a busy time of the year


This is my guess, too.  Halloween, then Thanksgiving, then Christmas shopping, and lots of people traveling everywhere.  It gets hectic.
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idontknowyet

Re: Where'd everybody go?
« Reply #3 on: December 07, 2019, 06:36:28 AM »
I'm still here.

It feels like it is getting slower and slower here each month.  Which makes me sad since we have such a nice bunch of people here.
 
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Shoe

Re: Where'd everybody go?
« Reply #4 on: December 07, 2019, 06:40:30 AM »
I'm not sure it's because of the time of year. People, no matter how busy, tend to get chatty around the holidays. So I don't know what's going on here, but I know the "other place" has been lobotomized (interesting threads get locked by Becca--sorry Becca, it's true). It's mostly newbies now who've discovered the polling option.


Martin Luther King: "Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity."
 
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alhawke

Re: Where'd everybody go?
« Reply #5 on: December 07, 2019, 06:40:41 AM »
Holidays.
Sometimes we stop procastinating and write.  grint
I'm still enjoying the threads.
 

Bill Hiatt

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Re: Where'd everybody go?
« Reply #6 on: December 07, 2019, 06:41:15 AM »
It's hard to measure. The number of members doesn't seem to be declining. I see people disappear for a while and then reappear.

I have noticed that the variety of new posts is declining somewhat.

On the other hand, it is important to keep in mind that some people only post  when they have questions. Others only post to report milestones. I would say a fairly high percentage of the members don't visit the forum every day. That doesn't necessarily mean they're gone. And it is a busy time of year.


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JRTomlin

Re: Where'd everybody go?
« Reply #7 on: December 07, 2019, 06:42:49 AM »
I'm still here.

It feels like it is getting slower and slower here each month.  Which makes me sad since we have such a nice bunch of people here.
And there really is nowhere else to post. I wouldn't touch that other place with something much taller than a ten-foot Pole and any Pole I know has better taste anyway. (Sorry. It's the holidays. Put that down to liquor)
 
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Bill Hiatt

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Re: Where'd everybody go?
« Reply #8 on: December 07, 2019, 06:46:05 AM »
I'm not sure it's because of the time of year. People, no matter how busy, tend to get chatty around the holidays. So I don't know what's going on here, but I know the "other place" has been lobotomized (interesting threads get locked by Becca--sorry Becca, it's true). It's mostly newbies now who've discovered the polling option.
I don't visit the other place very often anymore. Occasionally, I glance at the threads on the first page. I know some of the experienced posters still add content to threads, but very few of them seem to start threads. Most of the new creations are from people whose names I don't recognize.

That said, the community still has enough life in it to survive the new management, at least up to this point. When the acquisition was first made public, I found two boards owned by the same people. One seemed very low traffic, and the most recent post was a tirade over the new ownership letting the place die. On another, the forums had disappeared completely, and only ads remained.

If this forum had a higher profile, I think it's likely we'd get more new blood. How to do that remains a mystery to me...


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LilyBLily

Re: Where'd everybody go?
« Reply #9 on: December 07, 2019, 08:19:09 AM »
I share similar concerns, but I see this forum as mostly about indie marketing in all its many hues. I manage to waste enough time as it is without talking about movies or games or whatever.   

It's also about where we get our news and where we post our questions. For instance, the Christine Feehan debacle has been all over Twitter, which is a very influential site in that it doubtless showed her what a huge mistake she'd made, but the important discussion has been behind closed doors at the RWA, and now posted on the RWA's private PAN (published author network) loop, where it was announced today that the RWA had negotiated with her to withdraw (at least a couple of) her asinine trademark applications. People here can't do that. This forum is not directly linked to official power brokers.

On the good side, we aren't getting the vast number of beginner questions from foreign nationals seeking to cash in or from native English speakers who really ought to google a few things before they ask hugely general questions that basically amount to "Tell me everything you have learned in X years doing this so I can make a fortune in the next 30 days." When I was deleting my thousands of posts from KBoards, I saw that I'd wasted an incredible amount of time telling newbies really obvious stuff that they'd been too lazy to google. I do visit that site often, but never comment anymore, and there is a lot of wrongheaded stuff there--and how is that my business? People with far more patience than I have are still offering helpful information, which is very kind of them, but there has also been quite a bit of vicious back and forth. (Where were you, Becca?)

I got a new computer this week and haven't transferred any of my logins, so when I called up this forum by googling it, I found the main descriptive under the name is something about Writing 101. Which I think most of us here are way beyond. It may be, as was suggested earlier, that the site descriptions for SEO are not quite accurate and so there isn't the organic growth one might expect.

I try to post any valuable new stuff I encounter elsewhere. I've been very busy the last few months, too. 
 
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Shoe

Re: Where'd everybody go?
« Reply #10 on: December 07, 2019, 09:05:25 AM »
...something about Writing 101. Which I think most of us here are way beyond.

That's probably true. I kinda wish this forum was for vetted "professional indie publishers" and "the other one" for newbies. The indie community doesn't need two forums covering all the bases but could use one for serious, committed, aspiring-to-make-a-living-at-it, seasoned, full-timers. I would even pay for that (well, five bucks a month, and NOT via Paypal).
Martin Luther King: "Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity."
 

ashleycapes

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Re: Where'd everybody go?
« Reply #11 on: December 07, 2019, 10:52:40 AM »
Perhaps the holidays has everyone angry and exhausted - that's partly my excuse :D

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Maggie Ann

Re: Where'd everybody go?
« Reply #12 on: December 07, 2019, 10:53:21 AM »
Bad tooth, pain off and on until Thanksgiving Eve when it got really bad, went to Urgent Care who refused to give me antibiotics, dentist, tooth pulled, swelling, fever, etc, etc, etc.

Mostly, I've been lying in bed and moaning.

           
 
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elleoco

Re: Where'd everybody go?
« Reply #13 on: December 07, 2019, 12:08:56 PM »
I do still visit The Other Place. There are a couple of helpful threads, like the Vellum one, that have no equivalent here, and the Let's Talk Kindle forum is what keeps me current on the latest in Kindles and updates for them.

As to posting here, I have to see something that catches my interest, and marketing threads rarely do it since in spite of regular vows to do it, so far I'm still resisting. I haven't published in two years and my income is still holding at a decent level for needed supplemental retirement income. When I finally stop futzing around and finish my WIP, I'll release it the same as always - stick it on Amazon and email my mailing list.

Craft threads like the recently active one on whether editing is helpful are usually what pique my interest.
 
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TimothyEllis

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Re: Where'd everybody go?
« Reply #14 on: December 07, 2019, 12:14:41 PM »
We did have a dummy spit here back Octoberish, so I suspect we lost a few people over that. The comment was made a lot of the bigger authors don't come here because they don't get the protections they do at KB.

There are also the ongoing calls to reduce the place back to KB style, which I suspect has made a few people give up waiting for.

But these sort of things happen periodically, and people come and go.

Personally, the only time I go to KB these days is when the only link available on the current huha goes there. Otherwise, I never do.
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Shoe

Re: Where'd everybody go?
« Reply #15 on: December 07, 2019, 12:28:27 PM »
I haven't published in two years and my income is still holding at a decent level for needed supplemental retirement income.

I enjoy hearing stuff like this--making a decent amount and NOT releasing a book a month (or even yearly). I'm testing the waters now on holding new releases to see what I can make with a static bookshelf. So far I'm very pleased.
Martin Luther King: "Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity."
 

alhawke

Re: Where'd everybody go?
« Reply #16 on: December 07, 2019, 01:23:51 PM »
I'm still here.

It feels like it is getting slower and slower here each month.  Which makes me sad since we have such a nice bunch of people here.


There's a different vibe here. You guys seem like a tighter bunch. I'm new, so I don't know if things have slowed much on writersanctum. But there's been a lot of interesting posts that draw me over to you.

I do notice a lot of newbie writers at "the other place" (not that I'm all that seasoned myself). I feel like I owe the other place for a lot of valuable publishing and promotion info that helped launch my writing career.

Honestly, it might be the holidays, but I've seen posts unanswered and things slowing down elsewhere.

And, Maggie Ann--how awful. I hope you feel better soon.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2019, 01:28:03 PM by alhawke »
 

Hopscotch

Re: Where'd everybody go?
« Reply #17 on: December 07, 2019, 02:06:25 PM »
I'm here because I don't want to be there. And because I like this crowd better.  I don't go there, not even for the occasional peek, and never will.  As for our crowd size, WS is still young and will grow as more people see its value.
. .
 

Anarchist

Re: Where'd everybody go?
« Reply #18 on: December 07, 2019, 03:15:11 PM »
Speaking only for myself...

I no longer post much because most of the threads are boring.

The controversial threads (trademarking general words, botting, etc.) seem to be little more than opportunities for people to express their outrage.

The marketing threads are 101.

I'll sometimes tune in if I notice a post by Amanda, Crystal, DVD, and a few others. But otherwise, I'm fine with not participating.

I don't post at KB anymore. But that's because I'm on post moderation. :)
"The first lesson of economics is scarcity: there is never enough of anything to fully satisfy all those who want it. The first lesson of politics is to disregard the first lesson of economics.” – Thomas Sowell

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Jeff Tanyard

Re: Where'd everybody go?
« Reply #19 on: December 07, 2019, 03:27:24 PM »
Also, the "gold rush" days are over.  There's not a flood of people trying to get rich quick in indie publishing like there was years ago.  The traffic at kboards peaked in 2011 and has been in decline ever since.





I don't post at KB anymore. But that's because I'm on post moderation. :)


Don't leave us hanging.  Tell us the story.   :icon_mrgreen:
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Shoe

Re: Where'd everybody go?
« Reply #20 on: December 07, 2019, 04:08:12 PM »
There's not a flood of people trying to get rich quick in indie publishing like there was years ago.

That's the best news I've heard in a while.
Martin Luther King: "Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity."
 
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Vidya

Re: Where'd everybody go?
« Reply #21 on: December 07, 2019, 04:34:28 PM »
I assume the owners of The Other Place are putting money into advertising their forum, which is why we keep seeing new names there.

WS has all the members who fled KB, but very little new blood since we aren’t advertising the way they are.

Not saying we should; just saying it’s understandable we won't get a lot of new members. Even at KB, many old members would periodically stop posting but it kept busy and active since they got a constant churn of new members.
 

Cobbah

Re: Where'd everybody go?
« Reply #22 on: December 07, 2019, 10:47:55 PM »
I check this place daily for posts or threads of interest. I rarely see anything here I can't also see on KB or elsewhere. Most of that is repetitive regurgitated subject matter. You can't post anything contentious because the otherwise silent opinions surface and denounce you 'en mass' and the threads here are so convoluted in their little echo chambers that its difficult to navigate. There again I also echo elleoco in that I don't write much these days, never did if the truth be told. I still manage to earn out on all my books.

Someone mentioned there needs to be more contention to get people to login and respond or participate. Then you get comments like "We did have a dummy spit here back Octoberish, so I suspect we lost a few people over that," and you can see that there's a tendency not to 'rock the boat, or post anything that might result in disagreement. I liken the whole thing to a perpetual funeral procession, a silent dirge with the occasional rending of garments and wailing banshees.

I think most of us are just bored with same old, same old. I wish I could join Hugh aboard his yacht. He's not missing anything is he.
 

Simon Haynes

Re: Where'd everybody go?
« Reply #23 on: December 07, 2019, 11:23:07 PM »
I check here daily.

But I'm also writing a hell of a lot of fiction and renovating a house.

I haven't really done much new regarding pricing & promos & ads so nothing to report there. (I *am* reducing the price of 9/10ths of my main series to 99c for 7 days next week. I'm working like crazy to finish a was-25k-now-40k newletter magnet promo novella for inclusion in said books.)




 

Maggie Ann

Re: Where'd everybody go?
« Reply #24 on: December 07, 2019, 11:37:10 PM »
I joined KB a few months after they started and back then it was all about the Kindle. It was new and exciting and the greatest thing was Kindle Watch. That's when someone would order their first Kindle and we'd all stand by, waiting with the recipient for the UPS truck or the mailman to appear down the street.

A few of us published during that time but soon other authors found KB as a place where Kindle readers gathered and the floodgates opened. It was no longer a Kindle forum but an authors' forum. Lots of changes since then.

What I'm saying is that we had the Kindle as the launch point. Leslie was trolling the Amazon boards inviting people in, and since the Kindle was so new, everyone wanted to discuss it.

Our launch point was the desire to leave KB behind. We've done that and unless we find another draw, we'll stagnate. I see other KB people have come on board and that's good. I think this is going to be a slow growth forum, but it will grow.

I stay because I need the encouragement and interaction with other authors and there's always someone to keep us in the loop with Amazon shenanigans and other publishing news.

As for the other place, I never minded helping out the newbies, but too many of them then either ignored the good advice they were given or out and out said the advice was useless.

           
 
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VanessaC

Re: Where'd everybody go?
« Reply #25 on: December 08, 2019, 12:01:02 AM »
Speaking personally, November - early December are always really busy months at my day job, and I also have the feeling at this time of year of getting to the end of a long year and looking forward to some downtime over the festive season. Although I check here daily, I don't post much right now because my brain is often fried and I can't think of anything useful to add. Also, I usually check on my phone / tablet and hate using the touch keypads. "Free" time at my desk with a proper keyboard has been rare!

More widely, I also suspect that there are more places for us writers to hang out now than there used to be, even a few years ago. I'm now also in the Self Publishing Formula Facebook group and it's  pretty active, with a lot of variance from total newbie to very experienced authors. Posters there also often refer to other groups they're members of.

I do like this forum, but like others my participation will wax and wane depending on what else is going on in life.


     



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notthatamanda

Re: Where'd everybody go?
« Reply #26 on: December 08, 2019, 12:15:55 AM »
I check here daily.

But I'm also writing a hell of a lot of fiction and renovating a house.

I haven't really done much new regarding pricing & promos & ads so nothing to report there. (I *am* reducing the price of 9/10ths of my main series to 99c for 7 days next week. I'm working like crazy to finish a was-25k-now-40k newletter magnet promo novella for inclusion in said books.)
And thinking about Silver Enigma?
 
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123mlh

Re: Where'd everybody go?
« Reply #27 on: December 08, 2019, 12:21:05 AM »
I found KB because people were talking about it and linking to it as a source of good information at the time. (2013 or so) And I then turned around and recommended it for the same reasons. There was a time when if someone said they were interested in self-publishing that was the place I sent them. I don't anymore.

But I wouldn't send people here either. Reasons I wouldn't send people here are threads like the one a little while back about how no one should expect to earn a living from writing where a large number of the regular posters on here agreed. And there are a few very frequent, very vocal participants here who I would not expose newbies to because they wouldn't have the ability to see through the bullsh*t. And honestly, the animosity towards the other place just needs to go if you want to attract a new membership. A lot of the most successful names here still post there, too.

I check in with both because there's usually one little tidbit of info a month that helps me move forward. (Like being told on the other forum over a month ago about Canadian print prices being available now.) But neither place is what the old KB was when I found it. And I'm not sure any place ever will be again. We're not in that stage anymore.
 

TimothyEllis

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Re: Where'd everybody go?
« Reply #28 on: December 08, 2019, 12:22:23 AM »
"We did have a dummy spit here back Octoberish, so I suspect we lost a few people over that," and you can see that there's a tendency not to 'rock the boat, or post anything that might result in disagreement.

Not really.

Misunderstandings and disagreements are normal. We get less of them here than other places, but the fallout is always the same. They happen, regardless.

Our launch point was the desire to leave KB behind. We've done that and unless we find another draw, we'll stagnate. I see other KB people have come on board and that's good. I think this is going to be a slow growth forum, but it will grow.

The forum has been way beyond what I thought it would be. Seriously, when I created it, I gave it 3 months before I deleted it again from lack of use. I've done a lot of these forums over time, and some of them didn't even make a month before I pulled the plug. I've had a few which lasted for 2 or 3 years, but most are requested by people who don't follow through and use them.

I had no idea if this one would work or not, and so far, I consider it working really well. It might not get the traffic KB did/does, but it also gets way more than other author forums do.

I'm in less than a handful of FB groups, mainly because of the lack of moderation, or the totally over the top moderation, and stupid rules which get overenforced.

Where you go is what you find, and I find what we have here to be a good place to be. It's lack of traffic doesn't bother me. It gets enough to keep me from wondering if its past its use by date yet, and we do pick up new people about as fast as we lose them.

We are in that stage where those who didn't like the format have mostly gone, and those who never intended to come here didn't. It's all good.

I do an occasional plug on Quora with author questions, but nothing else. I'm going to Worldcon in NZ next year, and will take cards or flyers with me.

But for now, I'm content.
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TimothyEllis

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Re: Where'd everybody go?
« Reply #29 on: December 08, 2019, 12:33:20 AM »
about how no one should expect to earn a living from writing where a large number of the regular posters on here agreed.

The same question comes up on Quora almost weekly, and the posters there say the same thing as here. You can make a living, but you probably won't.

I don't see how telling people reality is in any way a problem.

Quote
And there are a few very frequent, very vocal participants here who I would not expose newbies to because they wouldn't have the ability to see through the bullsh*t.

I think we have less than most author places in that regard.

The difference here is they don't get over-moderated. (most of the time) All sides of an issue can be discussed here, as long as you stay civil about it. Where on KB, the mods will delete anything which is aimed at anyone on one of their pedestals. Here, as long as you play the ball and not the man, there is no need for moderation.

Quote
And honestly, the animosity towards the other place just needs to go if you want to attract a new membership. A lot of the most successful names here still post there, too.

I'm not sure I'd go along with that last part, but I know quite a few do.

The 'animosity' is something which will die over time, assuming people don't keep coming here after some new occurrence of something 'over there'. We see less and less reference now. And it only tends to come up when something blows up there, and is reported here.

The last big blowup here was in fact brought from there, and created more of what you said we needed to lose. That happens. Hopefully it will happen less. And we (or I) did learn a lesson from that gigantic misunderstanding in a teacup.
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Simon Haynes

Re: Where'd everybody go?
« Reply #30 on: December 08, 2019, 01:06:20 AM »
And thinking about Silver Enigma?

Of course! That's one of the main reasons I've switched Hal Zero from a full novel to half a novel.. so I can get on with Enigma.
 

Anarchist

Re: Where'd everybody go?
« Reply #31 on: December 08, 2019, 01:16:23 AM »
I don't post at KB anymore. But that's because I'm on post moderation. :)
Don't leave us hanging.  Tell us the story.   :icon_mrgreen:

It's not that interesting. The gist is that my posts sometimes break the forum's rules with regard to recognizing other members.

More details in case anyone is curious:

I dislike many types of people. Examples...

  • Delusional people (e.g. "My books don't sell because I'm black and people won't buy books written by black authors.")
  • People with a victim mentality (e.g. "Everyone is picking on me!")
  • sh*tposters (e.g. 90% of a sh*tposter's posts are polls, Youtube grabs, or tripe like "Good tip!", "Wow!", or "Nice to know!")
  • People who are easily offended (e.g. "Your tone is hurtful to me" or "The way you say that is insensitive.")
  • People who are entitled (e.g. "I just want to tell the stories in my heart..." followed by "Why won't my books sell?!")
  • People who are melodramatic (e.g. "I'm just going to give up!")
  • People who speak with authority on topics about which they're clearly ignorant (e.g. "AMS is a scam that only works for Amazon.")
  • People who are strident with their advice despite having telephone-number sales ranks. (e.g. "Don't ever give your books away for free" while their best-selling books have ranks in the high six figures.)
  • People who are overly woke (e.g. "Any book that's insensitive to [insert any of 37 genders here] says a lot about the author.")

I usually ignore them. But sometimes, these knuckleheads carpet bomb the forum. It's like walking through a park and noticing a discarded cup. Eh, big deal. But if you see dozens of discarded cups, fast-food bags, and used condoms, it becomes irksome.

I have, on occasion, posted to highlight the shenanigans of people I dislike. Doing so is admittedly against the rules. So, I was rightfully placed on post mod.

It was a good move. The sole mod left has the thankless job of monitoring thousands of posts by herself. Naturally, her tolerance for brazen rule-breaking must wane.

The decision works for me, too. My new restricted status has removed my desire to post. And that has saved me time. I've never asked for advice on KB, so it's not like a valuable resource was taken from me.

Plus, I can spend the saved time on other things. For example, the new Call of Duty recently launched and it ain't gonna play itself. :)



« Last Edit: December 08, 2019, 03:42:30 PM by Anarchist »
"The first lesson of economics is scarcity: there is never enough of anything to fully satisfy all those who want it. The first lesson of politics is to disregard the first lesson of economics.” – Thomas Sowell

"The State is an institution run by gangs of murderers, plunderers and thieves, surrounded by willing executioners, propagandists, sycophants, crooks, liars, clowns, charlatans, dupes and useful idiots—an institution that dirties and taints everything it touches.” - Hans Hoppe

"Virtue is more to be feared than vice, because its excesses are not subject to the regulation of conscience." - Adam Smith

Nothing that requires the labor of others is a basic human right.

I keep a stiff upper lip and shoot from the hip. - AC/DC
 
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LilyBLily

Re: Where'd everybody go?
« Reply #32 on: December 08, 2019, 02:07:46 AM »
In the past, I benefited from a lot of experiential posts on other sites and loops. Some of those loops have dried up on their own and others have come into being to fill new needs. I hope to keep benefiting from experiential posts here and contribute when I can. That's why I keep showing up.

 

Lynn

Re: Where'd everybody go?
« Reply #33 on: December 08, 2019, 02:24:22 AM »
Thanks everyone for trying to answer the question. Had a power outage last night and lost my internet for four hours so I couldn't respond. :D

I'll just say thanks again instead of trying to go back and respond to everyone!
Don't rush me.
 
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Gerri Attrick

Re: Where'd everybody go?
« Reply #34 on: December 08, 2019, 02:24:59 AM »
I come along every day, though I don't often post. I am grateful to those who do, even the argumentative and contentious amongst us, because I always learn a lot - and I can scroll on past if the I don't like something. Or someone.

I've been on KB since early 2011. It was recommended by David Gaughran. I posted once - and got jumped on by the she-wolves (not the mods, I hasten to add), so rarely posted again. Now, as others have said, it's mainly newbies, editors and cover designers posting there.

I belong to one other writing forum. It's very small, very friendly, and that's where I do most of my posting.
 

Bill Hiatt

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Re: Where'd everybody go?
« Reply #35 on: December 08, 2019, 03:20:28 AM »
There are a lot of threads I don't read. Usually, I read only if something looks interesting or appears to be a subject to which I think I might be able to learn something from and/or intelligently contribute to. I have to say that I haven't seen that much hostility toward the other place. Perhaps I missed something. Personally, I don't have any animosity at all. I left because of the new ownership and not for any other reasons. I know some people post both places, and that's fine. How much one wishes to participate anywhere is an individual choice.

While I understand the concern expressed about exposing newbies to the idea that most people can't make a living at writing, that is where we are--and where writers always were, if we're being honest. A few make a really good living, a somewhat greater number scrape by, a still greater number make a nice supplement to their income, and the rest of us make very little. That was true even during the early KDP gold rush. It's true even of trad published authors. That doesn't mean people shouldn't pursue writing. But, as I used to tell my students, "Follow you dream--but have a plan b."

As for the observation that the writing advice is mostly writing 101, I think that's inevitable for several reasons:

First, sometimes people who are enormously successful are too busy writing and marketing to spend much time on forums discussing writing and marketing.
Second, sometimes people who are enormously successful do participate a little and then stop because their advice isn't accepted. Sometimes, those instances are caused by other posters who are married to a particular theory and just don't want to hear anything different. I can understand how a contributor would be frustrated by that. Sometimes, that kind of issue arises due to misunderstanding. I've seen prominent writers take offense because someone suggests that their experience may not be applicable to people in other circumstances. (In fact, every single thing that works for Jim Bestseller may not work for Joe Prawn, and we see threads almost every day in which even people who are closer together in terms of performance report radically different results for the same strategy.) Either way, the authors involved end up staying away.
Third, sometimes people who are enormously successful would rather not reveal the details of their success. I want to emphasize that I'm not criticizing them for making this choice. Some methods might become less effective if everyone started using them. (Use of free promotions comes to mind.) There's also an understandable desire to monetize the secrets of one's success. (I might well do that myself if I had any secrets worth selling.) In some ways, this is probably the single most important factor that tends to make most free online market information fairly basic.

I'm grateful for people who do share strategies and results. I'm not surprised or worried by the fact that there aren't more of them.

I have found enough information on here to change my opinions on some subjects, so for me, the site definitely serves a useful purpose.


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JRTomlin

Re: Where'd everybody go?
« Reply #36 on: December 08, 2019, 04:20:09 AM »
I probably posted in the 'you can't make a living' thread that I do. And I can't say I consider myself something special that I should be able to when other people can't. I am not in the 'enormously successful' category either, I just make a pretty decent living at it. But the fact is (and always has been) that most authors don't make a living writing. There is no point in pretending otherwise. That doesn't mean it isn't possible either.

I like this board which is why I post here. I dislike FB and do not post there at all. I even deleted my account there.

So I hope we keep plugging along, and if it's never the biggest and busiest forum in creation, that's fine with me too.
 

Shoe

Re: Where'd everybody go?
« Reply #37 on: December 08, 2019, 04:39:18 AM »
I doubt the forum is on life support, but I do think the board could use some tightening up down the road. Also, in another thread, I suggested the banner might be changed from "Have a question..." to "Self-Publishing Forum" or similar to entice more members.

Or go another way. The general zeitgeist in indie publishing is pretty sad. Google "self-publishing" how-to's, or any phrase you might have used when your journey into indie publishing began, and you'll be clobbered with "Make Money Self Publishing!" nonsense, with every bullet-point from KB featured in their "secret formulas to success". Maybe the forum topper should read "Make Money Self-Publishing!!!"
Martin Luther King: "Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity."
 

Lynn

Re: Where'd everybody go?
« Reply #38 on: December 08, 2019, 04:55:41 AM »
The general zeitgeist in indie publishing is pretty sad. Google "self-publishing" how-to's, or any phrase you might have used when your journey into indie publishing began, and you'll be clobbered with "Make Money Self Publishing!" nonsense, with every bullet-point from KB featured in their "secret formulas to success". Maybe the forum topper should read "Make Money Self-Publishing!!!"

It also feels a lot less hopeful these days. I mean, I hear of successes but I don't hear a lot of joy around those stories like in the "old days". Discussions are often tinged with hopelessness. Am I delusional or is that vibe real everywhere writers hang out these days?

Maybe people would rather hole up and not deal with that. I know that feeling. :D I try not to hang around anywhere that I leave feeling less hopeful than when I arrived. The death of hope is pretty much the death of everything. Without it, it's hard to get through life.
Don't rush me.
 
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idontknowyet

Re: Where'd everybody go?
« Reply #39 on: December 08, 2019, 05:19:18 AM »
The general zeitgeist in indie publishing is pretty sad. Google "self-publishing" how-to's, or any phrase you might have used when your journey into indie publishing began, and you'll be clobbered with "Make Money Self Publishing!" nonsense, with every bullet-point from KB featured in their "secret formulas to success". Maybe the forum topper should read "Make Money Self-Publishing!!!"

It also feels a lot less hopeful these days. I mean, I hear of successes but I don't hear a lot of joy around those stories like in the "old days". Discussions are often tinged with hopelessness. Am I delusional or is that vibe real everywhere writers hang out these days?

Maybe people would rather hole up and not deal with that. I know that feeling. :D I try not to hang around anywhere that I leave feeling less hopeful than when I arrived. The death of hope is pretty much the death of everything. Without it, it's hard to get through life.
I have to say no it isn't. I'm am  in a few that are very positive.

That said to be real, exponentially more writers will fail than will succeed. You will see people on the spectrum of determined to make it work and giving up cause they try everything and still fail.

Anyone that goes into this field and doesn't get that is a fool. I was one when I first started  writing. Now I am doing as much research and work before I release to lower the chance of that happening, but the odds aren't much better.

I am part of an editor group (cause my grammar is so bad I thought I might pick up tips there), and the topic of should you tell a person they should give up their dream came up. Now editors see hundreds probably thousands of books in their career. I would hope they can tell the difference between lack of finesse and lack of innate ability.  Almost unanimously they said no. Their job is to help people hone writers skills. A few were honest enough to say they think it but don't say it.
Reading passages that people put up for critique really has me wondering. Again I sit there knowing I am probably that person. But telling an engaging story is an art we can hone the skill with practice but to a certain degree it is an innate skill that you have or don't have. Regardless of how many voice lessons I take, I will never be able to sing well enough to sell music. Being honest with authors and saying your books wont ever sell is much kinder imho than letting people kill themselves spend all the money their family has or doesn't have on a pipe dream.


I hope you a feeling better Lynn.
 

Gerri Attrick

Re: Where'd everybody go?
« Reply #40 on: December 08, 2019, 05:25:41 AM »
I think you are right about the hopelessness, Lynn, but that's because a lot (too many?) people have jumped on the bandwagon. There are too many people offering their *Guide to Self Publishing Success* that, when others fail, it leaves a bitter taste in their mouth. Shoe is right, there. And I won't mention any names of these "dream sellers".

Also, when people started out, made some success, and announced it with joy (over at The Other Place, I mean) they often found that their 5* reviews were down voted, 1* reviews started appearing, and the jealous and the twisted did their best to shoot them down. Small wonder that they either shut up, or moved on.
 
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Lynn

Re: Where'd everybody go?
« Reply #41 on: December 08, 2019, 05:39:39 AM »

I hope you a feeling better Lynn.

Thank you very much! :D

But I feel pretty good these days. I had a bout of depression a couple of years ago that really knocked me down just when the money was really good (for me) and that helped tide me over when writing was really difficult for me and I went from 4-5 books a year to 1-2. That hurt in the long run financially speaking, but it didn't send me back to a day job, because I'm stubborn and I have always considered this career risky and have planned accordingly.

Financially, I'm still recovering, but emotionally, I'm doing good. And the writing is going much better too these days. I actually feel more hopeful than I've felt in a while. :D

2020 is going to be a great year if I have anything to say about it at all. :D
Don't rush me.
 
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Lynn

Re: Where'd everybody go?
« Reply #42 on: December 08, 2019, 05:42:25 AM »
I think you are right about the hopelessness, Lynn, but that's because a lot (too many?) people have jumped on the bandwagon. There are too many people offering their *Guide to Self Publishing Success* that, when others fail, it leaves a bitter taste in their mouth. Shoe is right, there. And I won't mention any names of these "dream sellers".

It always reminds me of the California Gold Rush stories I used to read, where the only people who really came out to the good were the suppliers, not the miners. :D So I always look at anyone offering any service a bit like I would look at a scam artist.

I know that sounds cynical, but it helps me differentiate what I really can use and what's just there to make someone else money off my hard work. :D
Don't rush me.
 
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Vijaya

Re: Where'd everybody go?
« Reply #43 on: December 08, 2019, 05:46:11 AM »
This is a great place. I just don't have much to offer... and this is also a busy time of the year. I do so appreciate all of you who share your experiences so generously.


Author of over 100 books and magazine pieces, primarily for children
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JRTomlin

Re: Where'd everybody go?
« Reply #44 on: December 08, 2019, 05:54:34 AM »
I think you are right about the hopelessness, Lynn, but that's because a lot (too many?) people have jumped on the bandwagon. There are too many people offering their *Guide to Self Publishing Success* that, when others fail, it leaves a bitter taste in their mouth. Shoe is right, there. And I won't mention any names of these "dream sellers".

It always reminds me of the California Gold Rush stories I used to read, where the only people who really came out to the good were the suppliers, not the miners. :D So I always look at anyone offering any service a bit like I would look at a scam artist.

I know that sounds cynical, but it helps me differentiate what I really can use and what's just there to make someone else money off my hard work. :D
But offering supplies isn't a scam. Those miners needed supplies just like we need cover designers, editors, proofreaders, etc. Of course, there were some scammers then and there are people offering services who aren't qualified. It takes a little work to separate the wheat from the chaff.
 

Mark Gardner

Re: Where'd everybody go?
« Reply #45 on: December 08, 2019, 06:53:14 AM »
I hit the forum here daily, and I avoid the other place unless something is liked there. I’ll be pretty absent in 2020. I’m on hiatus to finish my Graduate degree. The only thing I’ll be doing next year is working on my non-English stuff.
 

Shoe

Re: Where'd everybody go?
« Reply #46 on: December 08, 2019, 09:01:14 AM »

But offering supplies isn't a scam.

It depends... It could just be me but I don't want non-vetted vendors hitting the forum offering $0.02 per word editing or any other service. I want tips from successful authors on where to go for editing or covers, newsletter promotions, or whatever else I might need as an indie.

The same goes for the "mavens" peddling how-to books in their signatures. KB is a fan-forum for several self-publishing gurus. I'm sure they're well-intentioned (not really), but they're responsible for 70% of the crap that gets uploaded to Amazon. There's no shortage of indies with books ranking in the millions who swear by them.
Martin Luther King: "Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity."
 
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idontknowyet

Re: Where'd everybody go?
« Reply #47 on: December 08, 2019, 09:32:43 AM »

But offering supplies isn't a scam.

It depends... It could just be me but I don't want non-vetted vendors hitting the forum offering $0.02 per word editing or any other service. I want tips from successful authors on where to go for editing or covers, newsletter promotions, or whatever else I might need as an indie.

The same goes for the "mavens" peddling how-to books in their signatures. KB is a fan-forum for several self-publishing gurus. I'm sure they're well-intentioned (not really), but they're responsible for 70% of the crap that gets uploaded to Amazon. There's no shortage of indies with books ranking in the millions who swear by them.
If you're thinking about the two big groups I am. In theory I don't think there is anything wrong with their programs. The ideas are capable of producing profits. The problem is not everyone can be rich/profitable. The market isn't big enough to support a million new books a year (no idea how many authors that breaks down too) that are dumped on amazon. The numbers just aren't there. You will get a % of people it works for but everyone it's literally impossible. You would need to get 50% of the population reading on a regular basis if not more to support that.
 

ilamont

Re: Where'd everybody go?
« Reply #48 on: December 08, 2019, 09:43:10 AM »
I check in about every other day, and sometimes contribute a comment here or there.

I think another reason for the decline in activity is that there isn't much *news* going on compared to a few years back, when there were all sorts of issues and new tools bubbling up: major changes to KU payouts, launch of Amazon Advertising and Bookbub, Indie Author reports, various scandals, etc.   
I am the author of Lean Media: How to focus creativity, streamline production, and create media that audiences love. Lean Media website, Lean Media blog. I am also the publisher of IN 30 MINUTES guides.

Follow me on Twitter at @ilamont.
 

JRTomlin

Re: Where'd everybody go?
« Reply #49 on: December 08, 2019, 10:45:47 AM »

But offering supplies isn't a scam.

It depends... It could just be me but I don't want non-vetted vendors hitting the forum offering $0.02 per word editing or any other service. I want tips from successful authors on where to go for editing or covers, newsletter promotions, or whatever else I might need as an indie.

The same goes for the "mavens" peddling how-to books in their signatures. KB is a fan-forum for several self-publishing gurus. I'm sure they're well-intentioned (not really), but they're responsible for 70% of the crap that gets uploaded to Amazon. There's no shortage of indies with books ranking in the millions who swear by them.
I don't agree. I think there should be both. I am fine with people offering their services. Most list whether they have referrals and list who has used their work. And someone might want to try out someone new or else we'll never have new, and probably lower-priced, services for those who can't afford the high end. I'm also happy to see when someone says who has done a great job for them in a post.

Those .02¢ edit services may well not be for you, but they may be what someone else really needs.
 

Shoe

Re: Where'd everybody go?
« Reply #50 on: December 08, 2019, 11:51:45 AM »
I am fine with people offering their services.

I don't lose sleep if they do, and Timothy has them all nicely sequestered here, but on the other board their presence is on the spammy side.
Martin Luther King: "Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity."
 
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JRTomlin

Re: Where'd everybody go?
« Reply #51 on: December 08, 2019, 12:02:17 PM »
Oh, I agree with that! When you want to find a service, you know where on the board to go and it doesn't intrude when you don't. Timothy has done a good job with that.
 

Marti Talbott

Re: Where'd everybody go?
« Reply #52 on: December 08, 2019, 02:18:31 PM »
It's my fault, I haven't thought of a silly question to ask in a few days. Don't worry, I'll make up for it later.
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https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08QG5K23
 
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cecilia_writer

Re: Where'd everybody go?
« Reply #53 on: December 08, 2019, 08:04:01 PM »
I enjoy coming in here as it is mostly a more relaxed place than any similar online places. There's sometimes a kind of Chekhovian feeling of resigned melancholy about this site, but I think that could be partly the general zeitgeist, not just in publishing. (Anyway, Chekhov is one of my favourite playwrights)
Whenever I've asked a question it's been answered helpfully and although I don't post very often I do visit at least once a day. I've been leaping from one domestic crisis to another this past month or two, though.
Maggie Ann, hope you're feeling much better.
Cecilia Peartree - Woman of Mystery
 

twicebitten

Re: Where'd everybody go?
« Reply #54 on: December 09, 2019, 02:08:27 AM »
no one should expect to earn a living from writing

"No one?" I've never seen that said here, and I find it hard to believe everyone on a thread said it. Too many people here do make a living.

It's extremely unlikely you'll make a living as an author, and that's just a fact, and I read that in 1980 before there was an internet and when a "writing group" was a local bunch of ten people you met with twice a month. It was true then and it's true now, with the only difference being we have much better access to the precise numbers now. Any book ranked worse than #50,000 at Zon  (and worse than about #500 at other vendors) isn't making the author much money, and there are over 10 million books that aren't ranked that high. I don't see how this can be disputed.

It's clear to me from what my zon author ranking has been while wide and in KU (#125 at the highest, but briefly, and usually above #5000) that around 3000 people can make a living as writers, assuming an average ad spend and taking the median income for people with a BA/BS in the US as "making a living" and assuming they live in a place with guaranteed medical care or have a spouse with medical insurance or can tolerate not having health insurance. I don't know with certainty how many of those 3000 are novelists. Half to two thirds, I estimate, but I could be wrong about that.

Some writing groups are there to make a buck off wannabes (or $500 each off a number of them), and so of course their message will be "Anyone can do this! Everyone can do this! Come to our convention or take our classes and we'll show you how!" As I'm not trying to sell false hope (just novels), I can stick to the dull truth when newer writers ask for this information. It'd be lovely if all the skilled and hardworking made it, but the arithmetic just doesn't allow for that, no more than it'll allow every beautiful and talented-enough high school actor moving to LA upon graduation a FT career in TV and movies.
 
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Jan Hurst-Nicholson

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Re: Where'd everybody go?
« Reply #55 on: December 09, 2019, 02:27:41 AM »

Also, when people started out, made some success, and announced it with joy (over at The Other Place, I mean) they often found that their 5* reviews were down voted, 1* reviews started appearing, and the jealous and the twisted did their best to shoot them down. Small wonder that they either shut up, or moved on.

This is what I was going to suggest  :icon_rolleyes:. I miss posts by Hugh Howey etc and was sorry that many of the authors who contributed useful info left when the new owners took over at the other place. I felt that I had lost some good friends.  :icon_sad:

Non-fiction, Fiction, family saga, humour, short stories, teen, children's
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Marti Talbott

Re: Where'd everybody go?
« Reply #56 on: December 09, 2019, 03:03:06 AM »
It's true, a lot of people fell for the "write a book and get rich quick" nonsense people were promoting. It is also true that the jealous trashed those making money with negativity. There were rough times for those of us who were just trying to help. I still haven't managed to overcome the bad reviews blasting the first book in my Marblestone Mansion series in 2014. Can't get a BB ad on it because of that review. And, the 171 "helpful" votes that followed keeps it at the top and the first one people see. I've asked, but Amazon won't remove it. That's why I learned not to tell anyone if I do or do not make a living.

That's why a lot of authors don't list their books on that other board or on this one. I too am glad to see civility and curtsy on this board. It makes it a much more pleasant place to keep up. I do go to that other place to see if there is any useful news, but I haven't posted in a very long time there.

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elleoco

Re: Where'd everybody go?
« Reply #57 on: December 09, 2019, 03:32:01 AM »
no one should expect to earn a living from writing

"No one?" I've never seen that said here, and I find it hard to believe everyone on a thread said it. Too many people here do make a living.

A word quibble here - after all we're writers. "Expect" isn't a good word. Considering the number of people who write and don't make more than coffee money, much less a living, no one should expect. Low success figures aren't even low enough since they can't encompass those who write, send to traditional publishers, and experience nothing but rejection. The word smacks of surety - if I do (a), then (b) will follow.

However, there's nothing wrong with hoping, trying, or working toward, and no reason to discourage anyone from any of those things.

Lorri Moulton

Re: Where'd everybody go?
« Reply #58 on: December 09, 2019, 04:10:17 AM »
We're still here!  Our post just got moved to this area, so not as many people seem to be stopping by.  :angel:

50 words a day...no matter what!
https://writersanctum.com/index.php?topic=561.0

Author of Romance, Fantasy, Fairytales, Mystery & Suspense, and Historical Non-Fiction @ Lavender Cottage Books
 

Shoe

Re: Where'd everybody go?
« Reply #59 on: December 09, 2019, 04:43:25 AM »

However, there's nothing wrong with hoping, trying, or working toward, and no reason to discourage anyone from any of those things.

I dunno... Someone posted a blurb for critique the other day (not here) that was so incredibly awful I nearly revisited my breakfast. It was beyond hope. There was no sign that working harder was in the cards. What's a boy to do? Nothing, in my case, but others offered helpful insight and advice, keeping in line with the forum's "let's put a kettle on" spirit.

I think it points to the real problem in indie publishing. Indies face no barrier to entry (someone on this board once said "If I can write my name, I'm a writer"). There are no gatekeepers to qualify aspirants nor is there a structured apprenticeship. We have people who have never read outside their genre or taken a writing course writing books. It doesn't mean the odd author here and there won't have great success, but most won't, and they'll suffer a sense of entitlement. They've written a book, after all, and took Mark Dawson's publishing courses and read Chris Fox's books. Where is their success?

Maybe it's a question of tweaking a cover or blurb or changing the title or category. They're open to suggestions on those fronts. But suggesting they lack talent is verboten, which seems a bit askew.

Martin Luther King: "Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity."
 
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JRTomlin

Re: Where'd everybody go?
« Reply #60 on: December 09, 2019, 05:15:48 AM »
On the other hand, there are authors who sell one hell of a lot of novels whom I personally happen to consider talentless hacks. But their readers obviously disagree.

I am pretty sure that the majority of authors who do well never took a writing course or only did after they were writing and selling. I am high on the list of people who think that an MFA is a major waste of time and money if you want to be a writer.

Damned if I know what makes a good or a successful writer. Whether at least some other people like reading your work enough to pay for it? And how does one figure out if that is them until they put a few books out there?  🤷
 
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Bill Hiatt

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Re: Where'd everybody go?
« Reply #61 on: December 09, 2019, 05:22:50 AM »

However, there's nothing wrong with hoping, trying, or working toward, and no reason to discourage anyone from any of those things.

I dunno... Someone posted a blurb for critique the other day (not here) that was so incredibly awful I nearly revisited my breakfast. It was beyond hope. There was no sign that working harder was in the cards. What's a boy to do? Nothing, in my case, but others offered helpful insight and advice, keeping in line with the forum's "let's put a kettle on" spirit.

I think it points to the real problem in indie publishing. Indies face no barrier to entry (someone on this board once said "If I can write my name, I'm a writer"). There are no gatekeepers to qualify aspirants nor is there a structured apprenticeship. We have people who have never read outside their genre or taken a writing course writing books. It doesn't mean the odd author here and there won't have great success, but most won't, and they'll suffer a sense of entitlement. They've written a book, after all, and took Mark Dawson's publishing courses and read Chris Fox's books. Where is their success?

Maybe it's a question of tweaking a cover or blurb or changing the title or category. They're open to suggestions on those fronts. But suggesting they lack talent is verboten, which seems a bit askew.
utting on my teacher hat, I think the trick is to discuss the work, not the person. Maybe the aspiring writing in fact has no talent, but it's also possible there is some that could be brought out by the proper training and experience. In any case, someone who asks for help on writing is not asking for that writing to be evaluated as some kind of measure of intelligence.

Someone who asks about a book (or even a blurb) deserves an honest response to the question being asked. If the work isn't good, it's okay to say so. It's also good to suggest what would work better.

People develop in stages, and development doesn't stop after high school, though arguably, it does slow down. Someone who doesn't seem to have a lot of talent may still be developing. Or it could be that the person is never going to be good in that area. But unless someone asks to judge that, I'm not going it. (It's the writing equivalent of "hard on the issues, soft on the people.") Anyway, telling people they have no talent is unlikely to be a successful strategy. It's more likely the person will respond defensively. As we've seen, some people respond that way even to constructive criticism, but that has more chance of penetrating. People who really don't have it in them to be writers will probably give up eventually on their own.

(And yes, I've known some people who appeared to be basket cases in high school who mastered some things later in life and ended up being successful.)



Tickling the imagination one book at a time
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Bill Hiatt

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Re: Where'd everybody go?
« Reply #62 on: December 09, 2019, 05:31:06 AM »
On the other hand, there are authors who sell one hell of a lot of novels whom I personally happen to consider talentless hacks. But their readers obviously disagree.

I am pretty sure that the majority of authors who do well never took a writing course or only did after they were writing and selling. I am high on the list of people who think that an MFA is a major waste of time and money if you want to be a writer.

Damned if I know what makes a good or a successful writer. Whether at least some other people like reading your work enough to pay for it? And how does one figure out if that is them until they put a few books out there?  🤷
I've had the experience of starting to read something by a popular author and then wondering why the person was popular. Part of the problem is that a large part of our reaction to literature is a matter of taste. I've come to realize that, just because I don't like something, it doesn't mean it's bad. It's just not right for me.

Writing courses could do some good, but not everyone learns in the same way. For instance, I never took a computer course, but I ended up being someone other people frequently came to for advice on technological matters and was frequently an early adopter of new technology. I learned by doing.

I think it's possible for a writer to learn that way as well, depending on the person. A writer could take a course on editing, or a writer could learn from working with editors.

Some successful writers are literary geniuses. Others are just competent authors who are really, really good at marketing. There are a lot of paths to success.


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Lorri Moulton

Re: Where'd everybody go?
« Reply #63 on: December 09, 2019, 05:33:51 AM »
The red pens in those journalism classes were relentless, but they did help.  Everyone takes a different path, but IMHO we still benefit a great deal from not having barriers to entry. 

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123mlh

Re: Where'd everybody go?
« Reply #64 on: December 09, 2019, 05:34:07 AM »
This was the thread I was thinking of: https://writersanctum.com/index.php?topic=2220.msg41557#msg41557

People can quibble with my interpretation of what was said, but the bottom line for me is that if someone came to me and said I have this dream of being a writer, this is not where I'd send them for encouragement. The tone of that thread is nothing like the tone of KB back in the day and maybe that's just from shifts in the market and people learning that, no, not everyone can do well at this. But improbable dreams require a tremendous amount of effort and will to achieve and surrounding people who want that with those who will tell them about how unlikely they are to get there every step of the way makes it ten times harder to get there. Another reason I will probably be bowing out of this place and the other one for 2020 as much as I can manage.
 
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Marti Talbott

Re: Where'd everybody go?
« Reply #65 on: December 09, 2019, 05:34:56 AM »
On the other hand, there are authors who sell one hell of a lot of novels whom I personally happen to consider talentless hacks. But their readers obviously disagree.

I am pretty sure that the majority of authors who do well never took a writing course or only did after they were writing and selling. I am high on the list of people who think that an MFA is a major waste of time and money if you want to be a writer.

Damned if I know what makes a good or a successful writer. Whether at least some other people like reading your work enough to pay for it? And how does one figure out if that is them until they put a few books out there?  🤷

I looked up some things when I first started writing, mostly grammar, but I stumbled on something that I think helps sell my books. It's paying lots of attention to the five senses. Touch is the hardest to write, but as soft as a newborn baby's face works. We have to stick to smells and sounds the readers can relate to, but it's easy to forget that the five senses help make the stories come alive.

Just my donation to the subject.
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Marti Talbott

Re: Where'd everybody go?
« Reply #66 on: December 09, 2019, 05:40:57 AM »
This was the thread I was thinking of: https://writersanctum.com/index.php?topic=2220.msg41557#msg41557

People can quibble with my interpretation of what was said, but the bottom line for me is that if someone came to me and said I have this dream of being a writer, this is not where I'd send them for encouragement. The tone of that thread is nothing like the tone of KB back in the day and maybe that's just from shifts in the market and people learning that, no, not everyone can do well at this. But improbable dreams require a tremendous amount of effort and will to achieve and surrounding people who want that with those who will tell them about how unlikely they are to get there every step of the way makes it ten times harder to get there. Another reason I will probably be bowing out of this place and the other one for 2020 as much as I can manage.

Well, being criticized is the most discouraging part of the game. If someone discouraged you, then we would have to consider if it was your blurb, your cover, or just discouragement in general. The first time someone told me my blurb sucked, I actually shed a few tears, but he was right and I am grateful every time I sell a copy of that book that he had the courage and cared enough to tell me the truth.
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JRTomlin

Re: Where'd everybody go?
« Reply #67 on: December 09, 2019, 06:05:22 AM »
This was the thread I was thinking of: https://writersanctum.com/index.php?topic=2220.msg41557#msg41557

People can quibble with my interpretation of what was said, but the bottom line for me is that if someone came to me and said I have this dream of being a writer, this is not where I'd send them for encouragement. The tone of that thread is nothing like the tone of KB back in the day and maybe that's just from shifts in the market and people learning that, no, not everyone can do well at this. But improbable dreams require a tremendous amount of effort and will to achieve and surrounding people who want that with those who will tell them about how unlikely they are to get there every step of the way makes it ten times harder to get there. Another reason I will probably be bowing out of this place and the other one for 2020 as much as I can manage.
I reacted very differently to that thread. It was very sympathetic to the man who said he was quitting because it wasn't any fun anymore and very realistic that most authors don't make a living from it. But the "you can't make a living" comment was a quote from a blog.

Anyone tells would-be authors that it is easy to make a living or that most people who write novels do so is doing them no favour. It was quite a surprise when I realised that I was doing so. It certainly wasn't something I expected and I constantly wonder if this is the year it all falls apart.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2019, 06:20:11 AM by JRTomlin »
 
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Shoe

Re: Where'd everybody go?
« Reply #68 on: December 09, 2019, 07:02:08 AM »
The first time someone told me my blurb sucked, I actually shed a few tears, but he was right and I am grateful every time I sell a copy of that book that he had the courage and cared enough to tell me the truth.

Years ago I belonged to a critique forum. You had to provide samples of your writing before they'd let you in, and it took me several tries to get through the gate. I quickly learned you needed a suit of armor to survive, but man, it was worth it. I did leave in a huff a couple of times (how dare they say my writing was "sentimental"?), but always went back. After a couple of years, the owner tired of maintaining the site and it closed. A few of its former members have become well known in journalism (it wasn't a fiction workshop). I consider that period part of my "apprenticeship".

MFAs: I doubt they do much for those with zero innate writing talent other than improve their "craft", but craft will not by itself make a great writer. I look at it this way--music is my first passion, and I can play a couple of instruments convincingly, but in truth, I suck (considering the hours I've put into practice). So I know better than to pursue music as a career. My biggest handicap is I'm officially tone-deaf. When I play, I do not understand where to head tonally.

I think a lot of writers are tone-deaf when it comes to their writing. No matter how well they construct their sentences and stories, they don't go anywhere (which is reminiscent of New Yorker fiction in the Nineties). It doesn't necessarily mean they won't find success writing but, borrowing from the musical analogy above, they shouldn't expect to play Carnegie Hall (though they might be welcome in the church choir).

Dan Brown and the late Tom Clancy aren't regarded for their literary talents, but they sure how to set strike a tone that invites you to sit in a comfortable chair and turn page after page.

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Bill Hiatt

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Re: Where'd everybody go?
« Reply #69 on: December 09, 2019, 07:07:34 AM »
This was the thread I was thinking of: https://writersanctum.com/index.php?topic=2220.msg41557#msg41557

People can quibble with my interpretation of what was said, but the bottom line for me is that if someone came to me and said I have this dream of being a writer, this is not where I'd send them for encouragement. The tone of that thread is nothing like the tone of KB back in the day and maybe that's just from shifts in the market and people learning that, no, not everyone can do well at this. But improbable dreams require a tremendous amount of effort and will to achieve and surrounding people who want that with those who will tell them about how unlikely they are to get there every step of the way makes it ten times harder to get there. Another reason I will probably be bowing out of this place and the other one for 2020 as much as I can manage.
I think there's a considerable difference between telling someone it's impossible and telling someone it's unlikely, but that they should try if they are willing to put in the time and effort.

I'm gathering that there are a fair number of people here who do make a living, but I also suspect that the posters here aren't a representative sample. We know that attempts to chart indie author success (like the early one by Smashwords) end up with a very small bulge on one end for people making a living and a long, long flat line representing all the people who don't. Author Earning Reports (when there was still publicly available data) estimated successful indie authors who'd started in the past few years to be about 5,000. Think of how many more people than that have tried publishing. And we also have data that the average trad author doesn't make a living from writing. Is hiding the reality the best way to advise people?

In recent years, I have encouraged people I've run across who seemed to have an aptitude for it to give writing a try. But I've also been frank about how hard a road it could be and how they needed to have a plan b. Maybe that would discourage some people--but they'd be much less discouraged than if they tried and failed without knowing that that's what happens to most people. Coming at it thinking it was easy would make them feel like failures, when they shouldn't really feel that way. Alternatively, coming at it thinking it was easy might cause them to put in less effort. They might end up missing the mark because they didn't understand how much dedication is required. There is also a third potential pitfall--falling victim to the scammers, whose message is always that success is possible if you just fill the scammers' bank account. None of these alternatives is desirable.

So yes, encourage, but temper the encouragement with realism. If someone is scared off by the fact that most people don't make a living, that's a person who probably shouldn't be doing it. Making career choices based on incomplete information is never a good idea.


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JRTomlin

Re: Where'd everybody go?
« Reply #70 on: December 09, 2019, 07:09:56 AM »
The first time someone told me my blurb sucked, I actually shed a few tears, but he was right and I am grateful every time I sell a copy of that book that he had the courage and cared enough to tell me the truth.

Years ago I belonged to a critique forum. You had to provide samples of your writing before they'd let you in, and it took me several tries to get through the gate. I quickly learned you needed a suit of armor to survive, but man, it was worth it. I did leave in a huff a couple of times (how dare they say my writing was "sentimental"?), but always went back. After a couple of years, the owner tired of maintaining the site and it closed. A few of its former members have become well known in journalism (it wasn't a fiction workshop). I consider that period part of my "apprenticeship".

MFAs: I doubt they do much for those with zero innate writing talent other than improve their "craft", but craft will not by itself make a great writer. I look at it this way--music is my first passion, and I can play a couple of instruments convincingly, but in truth, I suck (considering the hours I've put into practice). So I know better than to pursue music as a career. My biggest handicap is I'm officially tone-deaf. When I play, I do not understand where to head tonally.

I think a lot of writers are tone-deaf when it comes to their writing. No matter how well they construct their sentences and stories, they don't go anywhere (which is reminiscent of New Yorker fiction in the Nineties). It doesn't necessarily mean they won't find success writing but, borrowing from the musical analogy above, they shouldn't expect to play Carnegie Hall (though they might be welcome in the church choir).

Dan Brown and the late Tom Clancy aren't regarded for their literary talents, but they sure how to set strike a tone that invites you to sit in a comfortable chair and turn page after page.
While I cannot stand to read either. It is a matter of personal taste. I can't say I agree on MFA programs. They are more likely to ruin someone who started out not tone deaf. But then for years, they taught and many still teach what you refer to as 'New Yorker fiction' which isn't a bad description of it. But those who like that sort of fiction (there must be some out there) would disagree with me, wouldn't they?

Courses for horses, as they say.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2019, 07:12:00 AM by JRTomlin »
 

Simon Haynes

Re: Where'd everybody go?
« Reply #71 on: December 09, 2019, 08:23:19 PM »
I was on the DROWW back in the day, and Critters later on. Yes, feedback could be harsh, but isn't it better to receive a few harsh comments at the beginning of a career? That way you can go off and improve, or even give up the idea of a writing career with barely any loss of time.

 

notthatamanda

Re: Where'd everybody go?
« Reply #72 on: December 09, 2019, 09:53:31 PM »
I was on a site called Trigger Street. I put two screenplays on there. You had to review four screenplays to get four reviews back and people might review yours even if it wasn't assigned to them.  I remember one comment I got was "Your writing shows promise." That meant the world to me. When I had my third idea for a story I couldn't figure out how to write it as a screenplay and wrote a novel instead.  They had suggested guidelines for reviews that went something like this;

Start with something nice
All the constructive criticism
End with something nice

It was a nice community and people were, for the most part, professional and fair.  Their feedback was very helpful. But I reviewed one guy's screenplay and, though I kept a list of typos and gave them to the author when I read the manuscript (they were very grateful) that particular manuscript was a mess.  I told him he needed to fix all the their/there, your/you're, etc and he yelled at me that English was his second language and if his story was good it wouldn't matter. I didn't bother to respond as I saw the threads of him arguing with everyone who had told him the same thing.

It was a very active community, prior to the 2007 ish, then it died off and eventually folded.  I learned a lot by looking at the reviews on other screenplays.

In contrast I told one friend (frienemy?) IRL that I was writing screenplays, she told me I would never succeed.  To this day I still haven't told her about my books, but I didn't let it stop me.
 

Jan Hurst-Nicholson

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Re: Where'd everybody go?
« Reply #73 on: December 09, 2019, 10:42:07 PM »

However, there's nothing wrong with hoping, trying, or working toward, and no reason to discourage anyone from any of those things.

I dunno... Someone posted a blurb for critique the other day (not here) that was so incredibly awful I nearly revisited my breakfast. It was beyond hope. There was no sign that working harder was in the cards. What's a boy to do? Nothing, in my case, but others offered helpful insight and advice, keeping in line with the forum's "let's put a kettle on" spirit.

I think it points to the real problem in indie publishing. Indies face no barrier to entry (someone on this board once said "If I can write my name, I'm a writer"). There are no gatekeepers to qualify aspirants nor is there a structured apprenticeship. We have people who have never read outside their genre or taken a writing course writing books. It doesn't mean the odd author here and there won't have great success, but most won't, and they'll suffer a sense of entitlement. They've written a book, after all, and took Mark Dawson's publishing courses and read Chris Fox's books. Where is their success?

Maybe it's a question of tweaking a cover or blurb or changing the title or category. They're open to suggestions on those fronts. But suggesting they lack talent is verboten, which seems a bit askew.

I used to do initial assessments for a literary agent. The problem that cropped up most frequently (apart from showing & telling  :icon_rolleyes:) was  a writer's inability to condense or tighten their work. I often suggested they tried writing a 'letter to the editor' of a magazine to see if they could win the 'letter of the week' etc. This is how I began writing and I won an expensive Mont Blanc pen, among other things. I still keep my hand in on the letters page if there is a worthwhile prize.  :icon_mrgreen:

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Sailor Stone

Re: Where'd everybody go?
« Reply #74 on: December 09, 2019, 11:13:25 PM »
I don't often post here but I always check in to see what is going on. I'm not successful enough to feel like I can answer most of the questions about making it in the writing and publishing world so I don't chime in with many answers.
It doesn't seem like there is as much news or change in the business as there used to be back a few years ago so perhaps there isn't, likewise, a need for as much discussion.
I think Amazon now has a clamp on both the selling side and the advertising side of publishing and they make sure that nothing will work without them getting most of the $$$ benefit. And if an author does show promise Amazon signs them up to one of their in house pub co's and we never hear from them again. Which to me seems funny, not funny ha-ha but funny that kind of stinks, that a company can make its success on the back of writers daring to go against the then trad-pubs-ass-kiss-your-way-to-success-method and then start their own publishing houses. How ironic and sort of even sad. But it won't stop me from trying to tell a good story, and, at least, trying to sell a few copies hoping my story might make a better day for somebody.
All of that said, I also just like being in the company of other writers, I feel like I kind of get them.
 
 
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Bill Hiatt

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Re: Where'd everybody go?
« Reply #75 on: December 10, 2019, 01:52:30 AM »
I don't often post here but I always check in to see what is going on. I'm not successful enough to feel like I can answer most of the questions about making it in the writing and publishing world so I don't chime in with many answers.
It doesn't seem like there is as much news or change in the business as there used to be back a few years ago so perhaps there isn't, likewise, a need for as much discussion.
I think Amazon now has a clamp on both the selling side and the advertising side of publishing and they make sure that nothing will work without them getting most of the $$$ benefit. And if an author does show promise Amazon signs them up to one of their in house pub co's and we never hear from them again. Which to me seems funny, not funny ha-ha but funny that kind of stinks, that a company can make its success on the back of writers daring to go against the then trad-pubs-ass-kiss-your-way-to-success-method and then start their own publishing houses. How ironic and sort of even sad. But it won't stop me from trying to tell a good story, and, at least, trying to sell a few copies hoping my story might make a better day for somebody.
All of that said, I also just like being in the company of other writers, I feel like I kind of get them.
I'm not as upset with Amazon starting their own publishing houses as I am with the fact that those are gradually fitting themselves more and more into a traditional model.

Amazon used to reach out to successful indie authors for contracts. Maybe its imprints still do, but I don't hear about that nearly as often as when I first started (2012). Amazon has also put all of its imprints except Crossings (for translated literature) behind agent walls. Not so long ago, what is now Amazon Original Stories had an open submission process, and some indies had big successes that way. No more. Not so long ago, Amazon had Kindle Scout, a contest that gave an opportunity for indie authors to get a contract with Kindle Press, an Amazon imprint created for that purpose. There were also some big successes there. No more. Kindle Worlds offered a unique opportunity to write what amounted to licensed fan fics and earn money from them. No more. Aspiring screenwriters could submit scripts or concepts to Amazon Studios. No more. I think these kinds of open opportunities had real potential, and Amazon did produce some hits through all of them--but apparently not enough. Sigh!

It's true that there seem to be fewer radical developments of any kind. Every time Barnes and Noble twitches, we expect some big comeback that doesn't happen. Then there's something like the Kobo-Walmart deal that turns out to be more hype than substance.

All of that pessimism aside, the only constant in life is change. At some point, I think the pace of news will pick up again.  And as long as that news isn't "Amazon Announces the end of KDP," some of us will keep plugging along.


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DrewMcGunn

Re: Where'd everybody go?
« Reply #76 on: December 10, 2019, 03:52:27 AM »
I'm just going to come out and ask, was there a big exodus sometime around October?

I was posting, had a birthday and didn't post for a few days because I was busy, came back and found that a lot of posters I was used to seeing post weren't posting anymore.

??

Now the place is barely limping along.

:(

Maybe I shouldn't ask, but I figured why not. I'd rather not see the forum die off just when I finally start posting again myself! :D

Hi Lynn...I'm hardly prolific on this forum, but lately I've been lurking more than contributing. For me, it's just the stage that I'm in. When I feel I have something I can constructively contribute, I'm happy to dig out the spare change behind the sofa cushions and throw in my two cents. I also stalk follow a few authors here whose skill and talent I admire and who occasionally throw out a few kibbles of wisdom.

Shoe made a comment about the low barriers to entry that has caused a flood of books to hit Amazon. That flood has made visibility harder, but it was that flood that got me publishing my own stories. I've referred to it as the democratization of publishing, but the end result is that nowadays, KDP and Amazon are the slush pile, and readers are the unfortunate curators of that process.

Even though I'm not particularly active at the moment, I'm grateful to Tim for putting together this forum after the kerfuffle on that other site. Far more often than not, I enjoy how he chooses to moderate the forum here and find it superior to the process at Kboards - but that's just me.


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Lynn

Re: Where'd everybody go?
« Reply #77 on: December 10, 2019, 04:14:40 AM »
Oh, I agree, this place is really nice. I won't go back to the other.

I've been very grateful to have this place, but I would love to see more activity on it, since I don't participate in any private groups of pro-writers. (I am in some groups on Discord for purely motivational, writerly talk with other writers but I have a feeling I'm one of the few people who actually try to write as a regular thing.) :D

But I find I need more motivational support in my indie career than I need in the business aspects of it, so that's the stuff I look for when I look at writer communities.

I mean, I definitely want to keep up with important stuff, scams that affect the market and things to watch out for, but I don't really seek outside opinion on a lot of the stuff others do, so having those kinds of support aren't relevant to me.

I'm here for the exact opposite reason that most other people seem to be here. :D
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Bill Hiatt

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Re: Where'd everybody go?
« Reply #78 on: December 10, 2019, 04:29:26 AM »
Shoe made a comment about the low barriers to entry that has caused a flood of books to hit Amazon. That flood has made visibility harder, but it was that flood that got me publishing my own stories. I've referred to it as the democratization of publishing, but the end result is that nowadays, KDP and Amazon are the slush pile, and readers are the unfortunate curators of that process.
Yes, KDP did democratize publishing, but I'm not sure I agree with you completely about the end result.

Speaking as a reader, I don't see myself as unfortunate. I've never had a problem finding good things to read, even if I'm only speaking of indie authors. Sure, there are duds out there, but they're pretty easy to avoid, at least in my experience. Nor is the content the same as the old trad pub slush pile. A lot of people now have never tried to trad publish, and some of them would probably have been picked up if they had. Some did trad publish and were even successful at it for a time, but now find self publishing a better vehicle for them. None of those are exactly slush pile.

I think many of us might be in favor of some minimal curation of the "Is the book written in English?" variety, but Amazon is unlikely to do anything that would significantly increase staff costs.


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twicebitten

Re: Where'd everybody go?
« Reply #79 on: December 10, 2019, 04:45:03 AM »
I'm not as upset with Amazon starting their own publishing houses as I am with the fact that those are gradually fitting themselves more and more into a traditional model.
There was a news release a couple of years back when they hired an editor from deep in the bowels of the NYC system, and I thought, oops, there goes discovery of indie authors for Amazon imprints. A year after that, Konrath mentioned on his blog that he had his agent submit to them, and I realized my worst fears had come true that quickly. Also, I have a friend in the KU bonuses stratosphere who never got an offer from Zon, which two years before, would definitely have happened.
It's sad for us, but it's sad for them too, because that system doesn't work well any more. It misses far too many bestsellers. So they replaced the fiery stallion of innovation with that limping old nag of tradpub who keeps walking around in the same circles, unaware there's a world outside that fence.
This sort of thing is why us oldsters sometimes get pessimistic. But then, when I arrived the people who had truly been in the goldrush (partly of erotica and of books with self-made covers) thought people like me heralded the beginning of the end.  omg, then KU1 and then the end of KU1? whoa, that was a whirlwind of hysteria.  :grint  And I know trade published people who are just catching up to what indie life was in 2012, and they aren't ever going to fully catch up (not that I can claim I am currently caught up either). You're right. The only constant for indies is change. I would like my golden days back, but that's simply not going to happen.

Like JRTomlin, I'm expecting the end for my FT status one year soon. That I got so many years is something of a miracle, and I'm grateful I jumped into KDP when I did.
 

Shoe

Re: Where'd everybody go?
« Reply #80 on: December 10, 2019, 08:33:07 AM »
I've referred to it as the democratization of publishing, but the end result is that nowadays, KDP and Amazon are the slush pile, and readers are the unfortunate curators of that process.

Rankings ultimately curate KDP, and they seem to work without obscuring seldom searched books appealing to narrow audiences (for example, "Introduction To Ice Fishing" by Frank Richards sits at #272,529). Though Frank may reap a seasonable advantage at the moment (his July rank might be in the millions), a more summery read, "The Bug Book: A Fly Fisher's Guide To Trout Stream Insects", sitting at #40,325, proves this may not be the case. Currently, more people are buying The Bug Book than six of my twelve published books. Where is my pistol? But suicide thoughts aside, it proves readers are probably not shortchanged by the number of questionable books crowding Amazon. For the most part, they're invisible.

So, I think those books sitting permanently in the millions and beyond are not there because Amazon is evil. They've earned their rankings. Considering the difficulty of curating 10 million books, I think they do a good job. They've democratized publishing, but they haven't lost their minds.

But the communities that pop up around any online money-making opportunity generally have no curating or vetting process whatsoever, which leaves a void if you're looking for a tight, professional group of people striving for excellence in their craft as well as loads of money. I have a feeling WS is aiming toward the pro side, but in the end, it's the quality of the posts that attract new members (which is the subject of a thread in "Administration"). Whenever I find a new forum, I always check the most recent posts, which is why I tend to give them a pass. My bets are on this place.



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Bill Hiatt

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Re: Where'd everybody go?
« Reply #81 on: December 10, 2019, 09:57:17 AM »
Like JRTomlin, I'm expecting the end for my FT status one year soon. That I got so many years is something of a miracle, and I'm grateful I jumped into KDP when I did.
I'm going to go out on a limb and predict that people who are able to make a full-time living will continue to do so, or at least come close. I think it's more likely people in the range below that will lose the most if the conditions become more difficult. I also think that breaking in will become more difficult.


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JRTomlin

Re: Where'd everybody go?
« Reply #82 on: December 10, 2019, 11:41:41 AM »
Like JRTomlin, I'm expecting the end for my FT status one year soon. That I got so many years is something of a miracle, and I'm grateful I jumped into KDP when I did.
I'm going to go out on a limb and predict that people who are able to make a full-time living will continue to do so, or at least come close. I think it's more likely people in the range below that will lose the most if the conditions become more difficult. I also think that breaking in will become more difficult.
I can't say that I am 'expecting' it, just aware that it could happen. And hoping it doesn't.

I think breaking in is much more difficult than it was in the 'gold rush' days (when I actually wasn't making a living yet, go figure) and it will probably get even harder.
 

Lorri Moulton

Re: Where'd everybody go?
« Reply #83 on: December 11, 2019, 02:41:59 AM »
Since we're making our best guess...I'm going to say many of the 'get rich quick' types will give up and leave.  The ebook market will find a new equilibrium and it may get a little easier for readers to find our books.

I also think branding will become much more important.  This is true for most businesses.

Author of Romance, Fantasy, Fairytales, Mystery & Suspense, and Historical Non-Fiction @ Lavender Cottage Books
 

Shoe

Re: Where'd everybody go?
« Reply #84 on: December 11, 2019, 04:04:50 AM »
The ebook market will find a new equilibrium

I've sensed a downward shift in the quality of new arrivals on some forums, and someone recently highlighted the falling metrics of KB since 2013. Maybe the field for qualified indies is becoming less crowded.




Martin Luther King: "Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity."
 

idontknowyet

Re: Where'd everybody go?
« Reply #85 on: December 11, 2019, 04:42:04 AM »
The ebook market will find a new equilibrium

I've sensed a downward shift in the quality of new arrivals on some forums, and someone recently highlighted the falling metrics of KB since 2013. Maybe the field for qualified indies is becoming less crowded.

"The quality of new arrivals"   WOW   :n2Str17:
 

Shoe

Re: Where'd everybody go?
« Reply #86 on: December 11, 2019, 04:45:48 AM »


"The quality of new arrivals"   WOW   :n2Str17:

Nothing to take personally (and I wasn't speaking about this forum).
Martin Luther King: "Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity."
 

LilyBLily

Re: Where'd everybody go?
« Reply #87 on: December 11, 2019, 07:36:51 AM »
The ebook market will find a new equilibrium

I've sensed a downward shift in the quality of new arrivals on some forums, and someone recently highlighted the falling metrics of KB since 2013. Maybe the field for qualified indies is becoming less crowded.

In your dreams. On the other hand, as a baby boomer I've always had 76 million people competing with me for jobs, for houses, for spouses, and for whatever. A crowded field is nothing new. How to stand out from the crowd is the problem I've been fighting my whole life. 

Although I'm fairly sure I was full of dumb questions about self-publishing five years ago, I didn't go on a huge forum to rant ignorantly, especially to rant about the very typical events of a would-be traditionally published author's life. Before I entered trad pub many decades ago, I spent time in the public library and read about this business. It truly was a big help.

Today, newcomers can learn a tremendous amount about every aspect of this business in the comfort of their homes, but do they bother? Or is the problem that they don't know how to separate the wheat from the chaff? That I see as a continuing education issue, and definitely the more experienced authors are not as willing to help out newbies today as they were when they were just starting out themselves.   

One of the many things I've learned over the years is that the condition of a manuscript tells one nothing about the author's potential. All an editor can do is judge what is currently on the page. If there is a super hot new trend and an editor has an urgent mandate to find a certain kind of story, it is possible that a less-than-perfect submission will be accepted--conditional on a ton of revision. I'm sure when Gone Girl hit, plenty of editors were tasked with finding the next one.

But that's trad pub, which some of us think is going its merry way off a cliff. Time will tell.

What about indie newcomers? Didn't we all have a combination of high hopes and deep fears to overcome at first? Some people can't handle this tension. It's hard to release a book and see that no one buys it except one's mother. Some people want to find someone to blame if they can't live out their rather skewed visions of what being an author really is. I don't think all the commercial noise helps them, either. Again, whom can they trust to give them accurate information? I appreciate all the authors who take the time to explain what works for them and what doesn't. I'm not looking for your trade secrets, because all the advice in the world still has to percolate through my hard head.         
 
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Bill Hiatt

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Re: Where'd everybody go?
« Reply #88 on: December 11, 2019, 09:55:45 AM »
Very good points, LilyBLily.

I think part of the problem for new indies is separating the wheat from the chaff. It certainly was for me.

For instance, I accepted some very bad advice about copyright because I didn't know any better, and pretty much everyone on that thread (KDP forum) was singing the same song, which was, "Don't bother. You can't collect statutory damages, but otherwise it doesn't matter." As it turns out, it does, because it's not just a question of statutory damages. You can't file suit for infringement at all without registration. Also, you might have a harder time defending yourself if someone falsely accuses you of infringement. Yes, a recent Supreme Court decision made this more definite, but that's really how the law stood even before. The issue SCOTUS ruled on was whether an application was sufficient to begin litigation, and the answer was no. But even before that, registration was considered necessary at some point in the litigation process. Though it's less likely some unknown indie is going to have to worry, it's certainly not impossible.

That's why it's also important for posters not to represent their experience as what always happens. Those of us who've been around for a while know that mileages vary, but a newbie wouldn't be as likely to.


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OfficialEthanJ

Re: Where'd everybody go?
« Reply #89 on: December 11, 2019, 12:46:05 PM »
I haven't been posting here for a while. I'm not sympathy trolling, but we lost both of our dogs about 9 months apart (both this year) and losing the last one cut deep. My wife and I are adjusting to post-dog life. I haven't been writing either. I don't have anything to say, either here or on paper.

When I do, I will.

::: returns to the shadows :::
 

Shoe

Re: Where'd everybody go?
« Reply #90 on: December 11, 2019, 12:57:37 PM »

Although I'm fairly sure I was full of dumb questions about self-publishing five years ago       

I don't mind when a writing-is-in-my-bones type, new to self-publishing, is here to learn the ropes. They should feel free to ask away. I enjoy helping them, though I rarely get to those threads before the arguments have begun over topics having nothing to do with the OP's question.

It's the newbie whose first post is "How much money can I make?" that ruffle my feathers.

I'm speculating, but I suspect the first people to use KDP were writing-in-the-bones types. No one knew if it'd pay but that wasn't their primary purpose in getting their books out. Then the royalty went up at some point, and the Warrior Forums for online marketing starting preaching "make money on Amazon writing how-to books". Porn webmasters, facing a hopeless marketing environment, decided erotica was the new wave and Reddit's popped-up to preach the gospel. I guess the word also spread through fan fiction and LitRPG communities and the blogosphere (I'm really reaching now) and everyone with keyboard descended on KDP to make money.

And here we are.
Martin Luther King: "Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity."
 

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Re: Where'd everybody go?
« Reply #91 on: December 11, 2019, 01:07:52 PM »
I'm speculating, but I suspect the first people to use KDP were writing-in-the-bones types. No one knew if it'd pay but that wasn't their primary purpose in getting their books out.

I wasn't in the first wave, or the second, but getting the books out of my head was my motivation for writing. It was that or go insane. Mind you, I'm not sure if anyone could tell the difference.

It was never about the money. Even though when I started, it was already proved there was money to be made. But I wasn't even looking at that, just concentrating on getting the stuff out of my head.

I tend to think people starting writing for the money have the wrong motivation. But that's just me.
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elleoco

Re: Where'd everybody go?
« Reply #92 on: December 11, 2019, 01:41:20 PM »
I haven't been posting here for a while. I'm not sympathy trolling, but we lost both of our dogs about 9 months apart (both this year) and losing the last one cut deep.

All my sympathy. Losing the dog of my heart a couple of years ago had pretty much the same effect on me for more than a year.

Jeff Tanyard

Re: Where'd everybody go?
« Reply #93 on: December 11, 2019, 03:00:11 PM »
Sorry to hear about your dogs, Ethan.  Condolences.   :icon_sad:
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LilyBLily

Re: Where'd everybody go?
« Reply #94 on: December 11, 2019, 03:13:28 PM »
I haven't been posting here for a while. I'm not sympathy trolling, but we lost both of our dogs about 9 months apart (both this year) and losing the last one cut deep.

All my sympathy. Losing the dog of my heart a couple of years ago had pretty much the same effect on me for more than a year.

My sympathies, too. Many of us have tough years, and there are no easy paths. Every grief is different. I asked my therapist specifically, but nope. Got to live through each grief one day at a time.
 

Laughing Elephant

Re: Where'd everybody go?
« Reply #95 on: December 11, 2019, 04:20:13 PM »


{{{Hugs}}} around you and your wife, Ethan.

 

VanessaC

Re: Where'd everybody go?
« Reply #96 on: December 11, 2019, 07:05:16 PM »
I haven't been posting here for a while. I'm not sympathy trolling, but we lost both of our dogs about 9 months apart (both this year) and losing the last one cut deep. My wife and I are adjusting to post-dog life.

No wise words, just: I'm so sorry.  All my sympathy.
     



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notthatamanda

Re: Where'd everybody go?
« Reply #97 on: December 11, 2019, 09:46:42 PM »
Sorry Ethan.
 

cecilia_writer

Re: Where'd everybody go?
« Reply #98 on: December 11, 2019, 11:46:44 PM »
I haven't been posting here for a while. I'm not sympathy trolling, but we lost both of our dogs about 9 months apart (both this year) and losing the last one cut deep.

That's very sad - animals are so much part of the family. I can understand it having a huge effect.
Cecilia Peartree - Woman of Mystery
 

guest78

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Re: Where'd everybody go?
« Reply #99 on: December 12, 2019, 12:05:29 AM »
I haven't been posting here for a while. I'm not sympathy trolling, but we lost both of our dogs about 9 months apart (both this year) and losing the last one cut deep. My wife and I are adjusting to post-dog life. I haven't been writing either. I don't have anything to say, either here or on paper.

When I do, I will.

::: returns to the shadows :::

Sorry to hear about your babies. I lost mine 13 years ago and it was the hardest thing I ever went through. Just know that there are folks out there who understand this grief.
 

guest78

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Re: Where'd everybody go?
« Reply #100 on: December 12, 2019, 12:10:59 AM »
I haven't been posting much because I think I'm just burnt out on the whole writer forum stuff. I've been all over internet message boards for writers for over a decade, and I'm tired y'all. I no longer have anything to contribute. Plus, my focus is less on publishing and more on other endeavors that still involve writing. I've been a writer my whole life and can't see myself quitting that, but this publishing bs, especially trying to figure out algos, has me  :shrug Oddly enough, I'm selling more wide than I am on Zon right now. Strange things happen when you aren't looking, I guess.
 

notthatamanda

Re: Where'd everybody go?
« Reply #101 on: December 12, 2019, 12:42:02 AM »
I'm curious as to what other endeavors you are up to, if you are willing to divulge.
 

Bill Hiatt

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Re: Where'd everybody go?
« Reply #102 on: December 12, 2019, 01:31:20 AM »
I'm speculating, but I suspect the first people to use KDP were writing-in-the-bones types. No one knew if it'd pay but that wasn't their primary purpose in getting their books out.

I wasn't in the first wave, or the second, but getting the books out of my head was my motivation for writing. It was that or go insane. Mind you, I'm not sure if anyone could tell the difference.

It was never about the money. Even though when I started, it was already proved there was money to be made. But I wasn't even looking at that, just concentrating on getting the stuff out of my head.

I tend to think people starting writing for the money have the wrong motivation. But that's just me.
I was also someone who felt the irresistible need to write.

That said, it didn't take me long to start checking the sales stats every half hour. Part of the problem is that I think most natural storytellers want to have an audience to tell their stories to. An author might be breaking even or perhaps taking an affordable loss, but if the audience size was significant, that author might still be happy. I know I would be. The problem is that it's hard to have a significant audience size without selling pretty well. That makes it harder sometimes to tell the difference between someone who is in it for love and someone who is in it for money.

I don't actually have a problem with people whose primary motivation is financial. To use an analogy from my teaching days, some students loved learning while others just wanted to get high grades, get into a good college, then a good career, and make tons of money. Both groups worked hard and produced quality work. In other words, the motivation made little difference in the end product. I do become concerned when people try to profit with the shoddiest product the market will bear, perhaps by unethical means. That's when the question of motivation becomes more important.


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guest78

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Re: Where'd everybody go?
« Reply #103 on: December 12, 2019, 02:54:35 AM »
I'm curious as to what other endeavors you are up to, if you are willing to divulge.

Focusing on audio, podcasting.
 

notthatamanda

Re: Where'd everybody go?
« Reply #104 on: December 12, 2019, 03:07:00 AM »
Oh do you do your own audio? Cool. I wish I could do that but I sound like a whiny four year old on tape.
 

guest78

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Re: Where'd everybody go?
« Reply #105 on: December 12, 2019, 03:18:43 AM »
Oh do you do your own audio? Cool. I wish I could do that but I sound like a whiny four year old on tape.

Yeah. Plus, I'm a trained actor so that helps. A lot. You probably don't sound as bad as you think. Everyone has to adjust to the sound of their own voice.

 :banana-riding-llama-smiley-em <---love this guy.
 

Bill Hiatt

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Re: Where'd everybody go?
« Reply #106 on: December 12, 2019, 03:38:01 AM »
Oh do you do your own audio? Cool. I wish I could do that but I sound like a whiny four year old on tape.

Yeah. Plus, I'm a trained actor so that helps. A lot. You probably don't sound as bad as you think. Everyone has to adjust to the sound of their own voice.

 :banana-riding-llama-smiley-em <---love this guy.
That's true. Our own voice never sounds the same to us as it does to everybody else. Hearing our recorded voice takes getting used to.


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notthatamanda

Re: Where'd everybody go?
« Reply #107 on: December 12, 2019, 05:02:03 AM »
If I still answered the phone I'm sure they would still be asking to talk to my parents.  That happened well into my thirties.   :banana-riding-llama-smiley-em The llama looks happy but what happened to his ears?!
 

Lynn

Re: Where'd everybody go?
« Reply #108 on: December 12, 2019, 05:09:26 AM »
If I still answered the phone I'm sure they would still be asking to talk to my parents.  That happened well into my thirties.   :banana-riding-llama-smiley-em The llama looks happy but what happened to his ears?!

My daughter and me sound just alike (we also look remarkably alike according to others). I don't hear it. Neither does she. But even my mother has to ask who she's talking to. :D I just had my 45th birthday!

I have to do my "adult" voice when people call or they want to talk to my mother.
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Shoe

Re: Where'd everybody go?
« Reply #109 on: December 12, 2019, 06:05:41 AM »


I don't actually have a problem with people whose primary motivation is financial.

I suppose I have trouble agreeing. When I write, my driver is what I want to say, not what will people want to read. I just trust that what I have to say will sync with enough people to give me a viable market. If I sit down and ask myself what will make the most money, my writing and novels won't be anything like what I actually now produce. And I would go from loving to hating the writing process.

The market for non-fiction is much larger than fiction's. One could probably write 100 fifty-page how-to guides in the time it takes to write a novel. Why don't the purely money-motivated focus there? Maybe they didn't get the memo (or look at the Warrior Forum).

But I'm sure there are loads of people who have an equal passion for both writing and money. I wonder if they're the ones clocking in at $100k a year plus.
Martin Luther King: "Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity."
 

Vijaya

Re: Where'd everybody go?
« Reply #110 on: December 12, 2019, 06:06:20 AM »
If I still answered the phone I'm sure they would still be asking to talk to my parents.  That happened well into my thirties.   

This is still me. I've been helping with some fundraising but I refuse to talk on the phone.

And Ethan, I am so sorry about your dogs. The sad thing is we never stop missing them. Our sweet golden is getting old so I often wonder how long we have with her.

From the very beginning of this writing journey, I knew in my bones that it'd be for the long haul. Although there's always an ebb and flow in this writing life, I couldn't be happier and I think I'll probably die writing.


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Bill Hiatt

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Re: Where'd everybody go?
« Reply #111 on: December 12, 2019, 07:28:58 AM »


I don't actually have a problem with people whose primary motivation is financial.

I suppose I have trouble agreeing. When I write, my driver is what I want to say, not what will people want to read. I just trust that what I have to say will sync with enough people to give me a viable market. If I sit down and ask myself what will make the most money, my writing and novels won't be anything like what I actually now produce. And I would go from loving to hating the writing process.

The market for non-fiction is much larger than fiction's. One could probably write 100 fifty-page how-to guides in the time it takes to write a novel. Why don't the purely money-motivated focus there? Maybe they didn't get the memo (or look at the Warrior Forum).

But I'm sure there are loads of people who have an equal passion for both writing and money. I wonder if they're the ones clocking in at $100k a year plus.
I agree with you completely when you talk about your own motivation. I think you and I are quite similar in that way. I write what I want to write and hope someone will want to read it. I wouldn't necessarily jump on a popular bandwagon unless I felt

All I was saying was that I wouldn't be judgmental about someone who is primarily interested in the financial aspects as long as that person was pursuing success in an ethical way. Maybe the person is trying to escape from a horrible, soul-numbing job and needs to focus on doing that. Maybe the person has other reasons to really need the money. Some people would be OK treating writing primarily as a commercial endeavor and might still enjoy doing it. Popular writing isn't necessarily bad writing, either. Many people might be able to find a balance that works for them--making money without making themselves hate writing.

As far as nonfiction is concerned, while it's a large market, there are practical limitations. There's only so much room for how-to books on any given subject, and given the variety that already exist, I'd imagine any of the more complex subjects would probably make a successful book only if the author were an expert. And if the subject were more simple, there are plenty of free how-to resources, including YouTube videos. It's not that people don't still exploit nonfiction for commercial reasons, but that route may not work for everyone. The appalling emails seem to tacitly acknowledge that by suggesting very short, ripped-from-the-headlines kind of nonfiction. Churn out a short book on a very trendy subject, sell at a relatively low price-point, rake in some bucks, then catch the next trendy wave, and so on, ad infinitum. That sounds depressing to me, but it's one way to milk nonfiction that doesn't have any obvious limit. But the books will be really short and probably of temporary interest at best.


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Marti Talbott

Re: Where'd everybody go?
« Reply #112 on: December 12, 2019, 08:03:54 AM »
I'm speculating, but I suspect the first people to use KDP were writing-in-the-bones types. No one knew if it'd pay but that wasn't their primary purpose in getting their books out.

I wasn't in the first wave, or the second, but getting the books out of my head was my motivation for writing. It was that or go insane. Mind you, I'm not sure if anyone could tell the difference.

It was never about the money. Even though when I started, it was already proved there was money to be made. But I wasn't even looking at that, just concentrating on getting the stuff out of my head.

I tend to think people starting writing for the money have the wrong motivation. But that's just me.

I did it for the money. I was looking at living on less than $1,000.00 a month social security with only 10k in the bank when I retired. Yes, I got in on the good years, but I can't imagine where I'd be if I hadn't. On the other hand, I did have several books already written, so I suppose I dreamed of being a writer too. I just knew long ago if I didn't do something, I was financially screwed. Single moms often find themselves in that situation.

By the way, I'm thrilled with all those rejections letters from traditional publishers. Turns out, they did me a big favor.
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Shoe

Re: Where'd everybody go?
« Reply #113 on: December 12, 2019, 12:07:45 PM »
On the other hand, I did have several books already written, so I suppose I dreamed of being a writer too.

I think having several books already written is significant. You already had the impulse to write (if I read you correctly), and KDP came along at the right time to make self-publishing a viable means of securing your retirement.

I didn't realize you have over fifty books published (even though the information was right there in front of me). I'd say your plan worked.

Martin Luther King: "Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity."
 

Mark Gardner

Re: Where'd everybody go?
« Reply #114 on: December 12, 2019, 12:09:42 PM »
To @OfficialEthanJ : having lost a dog to aggressive cancer last year, I understand your pain, and you have my sympathies.
 

Maggie Ann

Re: Where'd everybody go?
« Reply #115 on: December 12, 2019, 01:04:57 PM »
I haven't been posting here for a while. I'm not sympathy trolling, but we lost both of our dogs about 9 months apart (both this year) and losing the last one cut deep. My wife and I are adjusting to post-dog life. I haven't been writing either. I don't have anything to say, either here or on paper.

When I do, I will.

::: returns to the shadows :::

I didn't get my first dog until I was in my late sixties. He was a senior dog then. I had him for six wonderful years and then he died of liver cancer. I got another dog as soon as I could because I can no longer see my life without a dog in it.

I feel your loss, especially losing two like that. If you don't feel you can get another dog right away, maybe you can volunteer at a shelter or foster one or two while they wait for their forever homes.
           
 

twicebitten

Re: Where'd everybody go?
« Reply #116 on: December 14, 2019, 05:37:16 AM »
Like JRTomlin, I'm expecting the end for my FT status one year soon. That I got so many years is something of a miracle, and I'm grateful I jumped into KDP when I did.
I'm going to go out on a limb and predict that people who are able to make a full-time living will continue to do so, or at least come close. I think it's more likely people in the range below that will lose the most if the conditions become more difficult. I also think that breaking in will become more difficult.

That's a nice thought. But every new success story we hear means an old success story falls in the ranks. So if everybody making a FT living today continued to, no one else new could (because readership #s are pretty flat--not everyone reads novels and not everyone will). So I like your limb you went out on there  :cheers but .... not I'm counting on it to last. There are younger, fresher, hungrier people biting at our heels. And I don't resent that, and I'd reach out to help any I stumbled across who had a question I could answer. Being FT feels a little like musical chairs to me. One day, the music will stop, and I'll look around, and I'll be the one without a chair.

 

Marti Talbott

Re: Where'd everybody go?
« Reply #117 on: December 14, 2019, 05:53:02 AM »
Like JRTomlin, I'm expecting the end for my FT status one year soon. That I got so many years is something of a miracle, and I'm grateful I jumped into KDP when I did.
I'm going to go out on a limb and predict that people who are able to make a full-time living will continue to do so, or at least come close. I think it's more likely people in the range below that will lose the most if the conditions become more difficult. I also think that breaking in will become more difficult.

That's a nice thought. But every new success story we hear means an old success story falls in the ranks. So if everybody making a FT living today continued to, no one else new could (because readership #s are pretty flat--not everyone reads novels and not everyone will). So I like your limb you went out on there  :cheers but .... not I'm counting on it to last. There are younger, fresher, hungrier people biting at our heels. And I don't resent that, and I'd reach out to help any I stumbled across who had a question I could answer. Being FT feels a little like musical chairs to me. One day, the music will stop, and I'll look around, and I'll be the one without a chair.

---the one without a chair.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. This is exactly why we need to put our heads together and come up with more creative ways to market our books. Maybe we could develop some sort of coupon system to put on our websites, or pool our resources and buy more expensive ads that are better pointed at actual readers.

How about free content exclusive to our websites, like a fun two or three person argument over something trivial that people will come back to read daily, with of course, ads for our books. I say people are starved for good clean fun that doesn't cost them an arm and a leg. We just have to figure out how to do it and then spread the word.
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Simon Haynes

Re: Where'd everybody go?
« Reply #118 on: December 14, 2019, 05:53:31 AM »
That's where having a large backlist comes in, I guess. It's going to take those up-and-comers a while to write 30-40 novels.


 

Bill Hiatt

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Re: Where'd everybody go?
« Reply #119 on: December 14, 2019, 07:23:28 AM »
That's where having a large backlist comes in, I guess. It's going to take those up-and-comers a while to write 30-40 novels.
And it was easier to get noticed even a few years ago than it is now. That's why people with established fan bases have a distinct advantage.

I'm saying it's impossible for a newbie to break in, even at this point, but I think a lot more newbies will give up faster than in the past. It's hard to keep going when you don't seem to be getting anywhere.


Tickling the imagination one book at a time
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Lynn

Re: Where'd everybody go?
« Reply #120 on: December 14, 2019, 07:34:20 AM »
I guess I'm just not feeling that same kind of disappointment in the market because I've never had huge success. Successes come and go, based on books, based on series, on whether you happen to hit the zeitgeist in the markets. It's like construction work, where one or two bad years might be followed by the kind of money that dreams are made of but anyone smart puts it back because the next rainy year could mean delays and bad budgets and bankruptcy. It's speculation, and in a sense, the fiction market especially, somewhat like gambling.

:D

I think the days of authorship as a steady regular day job kind of gig was always a delusion. The arts are just not that kind of business. The ladder isn't being pulled out from under anyone so much as the ladder wasn't really there to begin with. It was an imaginary ladder. :D

What you have is a swing set, and the ride up is inevitably followed by a ride down, but if you haven't jumped off you might get another go at the sun. :D

Maybe it's a row of swing sets, all swinging at different rates and started at different moments, and it looks like Susie is overtaking Mark but in reality everyone is just in their own groove, reaching for the sun. :D

How I used to love trying to swing hard enough to get the chains to let loose and send me twirling over the top. Never quite made it but it sure was fun trying. :)

Publishers can spread out risk and have so many fires going at once that it becomes a whole different thing for them, but even they depend on a few big hits to pay the bills. That is not the indie publisher. Anyone doing that has graduated to small press and left indie behind.
Don't rush me.
 
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Tom Wood

Re: Where'd everybody go?
« Reply #121 on: December 14, 2019, 08:03:07 AM »
...

How about free content exclusive to our websites, like a fun two or three person argument over something trivial that people will come back to read daily, with of course, ads for our books. I say people are starved for good clean fun that doesn't cost them an arm and a leg. We just have to figure out how to do it and then spread the word.


I sometimes wonder if the Sam Sykes-Myke Cole-Chuck Wendig 'arguments' on Twitter are pre-planned, at least to some extent. They are a lot of fun to watch, but I don't know if they help sell books. Very good for visibility though.
 

JRTomlin

Re: Where'd everybody go?
« Reply #122 on: December 14, 2019, 11:02:01 AM »
That's where having a large backlist comes in, I guess. It's going to take those up-and-comers a while to write 30-40 novels.
Very true. And for a mid-lister, it is the backlist that generally pays the mortgage.
 

Joe Vasicek

Re: Where'd everybody go?
« Reply #123 on: December 14, 2019, 01:44:24 PM »
I still pop in from time to time, but most of my publishing news these days comes from podcasts. More substance, less drama.
 
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Max

Re: Where'd everybody go?
« Reply #124 on: December 14, 2019, 01:49:40 PM »
I'd hate to see this place go away. I'm not coming around as much, but that's cause I rearranged the favorite icons and well, out of sight, out of mind. And I got busier. As we all do, I suppose. Plus, I don't comment if someone said it better, quicker, smarter than I could. Which is most often the case. I hate taking up space uselessly. Which is exactly what I'm doing now.

Though it's not a reason for my not stopping by, I do remember getting frustrated by split-off discussions that had links to follow, or not follow? I'm not sure. I think I typically gave up on those because I couldn't keep up.

PS. Was the llama creature always green?
 

Jeff Tanyard

Re: Where'd everybody go?
« Reply #125 on: December 14, 2019, 05:13:32 PM »


PS. Was the llama creature always green?


Yep.  It's always been awesome, too.   :cool:


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TimothyEllis

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Re: Where'd everybody go?
« Reply #126 on: December 14, 2019, 05:22:10 PM »
PS. Was the llama creature always green?
Yep.  It's always been awesome, too.   :cool:

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Vijaya

Re: Where'd everybody go?
« Reply #127 on: December 15, 2019, 01:03:41 AM »
Plus, I don't comment if someone said it better, quicker, smarter than I could. Which is most often the case. I hate taking up space uselessly. Which is exactly what I'm doing now.

Yep.


Author of over 100 books and magazine pieces, primarily for children
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