Post by: guest1291 on April 29, 2019, 01:29:39 PM
Is this a generational thing? Have storytelling standards dropped this much over the years? I can't get over how much praise something so bad is receiving, but given how this happens for so many other stories in TV and film, I guess I shouldn't be shocked.
I'm not exaggerating when I say tonight's episode represented the kind of writing you see from sixth graders on a writing assignment.
How far this show has fallen. :shrug
Honestly, tonight's episode felt like it was written in some 12-year-old's fantasy of how an epic story should play out.
Really, the show has not been good for nearly four seasons now, but lately it's gone off the deep end of plot contrivances, deus ex machina, and horrid logic.
We saw what the dead were like in the 'Hardhome' episode from an otherwise terrible Season 5. That was a much better representation, and a much better episode (from the same director as tonight's episode, no less).
How many times did we have to see major characters be saved at the last second by some "badass" move from another major character? How cheesy was that Arya scene where she charges in with heroic music "owning" dead guys with spins and kicks?
Oh gawd, don't get me started. I could go on and on about this. If you want to talk about it, I'm definitely game (thus this thread), but for now I'll spare you the problems I have with it all. Needless to say as much as I feel committed to these characters and this story world from my love for the books and the early episodes of this show, I'm also pretty disappointed in the direction the writing has taken.
For shame, HBO. Bring on GRRM's 'The Winds of Winter'!
Post by: Post-Crisis D on April 29, 2019, 01:47:47 PM
The reactions across social media to tonight's ridiculously bad episode (Season 8, Ep. 3) and really for every episode this season has me feeling like I'm pretty much alone on Sanity (Insanity?) Island.
Is this a generational thing? Have storytelling standards dropped this much over the years? I can't get over how much praise something so bad is receiving, but given how this happens for so many other stories in TV and film, I guess I shouldn't be shocked.
I don't watch GoT so I can't comment on that but I have watched other shows that have been really, really bad yet have gotten rave reviews. I think, sometimes, story takes a backseat to other factors and if those factors ring the right bells, the show/movie/whatever will be praised even if the story itself is bland, nonsensical, just plain stupid or even nonexistent.
Post by: Joe Vasicek on April 29, 2019, 02:53:33 PM
Post by: LilyBLily on April 29, 2019, 03:02:07 PM
Post by: Joe Vasicek on April 29, 2019, 03:17:01 PM
Ever since Lost jumped the shark--over and over again--I've ignored series TV drama. I feel much better for having made that decision. Fool me once.
Your loss. Breaking Bad and The Man in the High Castle are two of the greatest TV series ever made.
Post by: Captain Cranky on April 29, 2019, 06:46:27 PM
Post by: Jeff Tanyard on April 29, 2019, 07:52:30 PM
I'll probably think of a few more things later, but that's what stick in my mind at the moment.
I'm not exaggerating when I say tonight's episode represented the kind of writing you see from sixth graders on a writing assignment.
How far this show has fallen. :shrug
Honestly, tonight's episode felt like it was written in some 12-year-old's fantasy of how an epic story should play out.
Really, the show has not been good for nearly four seasons now, but lately it's gone off the deep end of plot contrivances, deus ex machina, and horrid logic.
There was a noticeable change in the writing when the show writers ran out of book material and had to start coming up with stuff on their own.
Post by: guest1291 on April 30, 2019, 06:04:45 AM
I haven't been watching the show and have no desire to start now, but I'm curious what you found so bad about it. Reading the episode summary on Wikipedia, it sounds like the big bad of the entire series was killed by a main character sneaking up behind him, in a deus ex machina sort of way. Is that right?
SPOILERS AHEAD:
Yes, apparently a character who can't traverse a room without alerting zombies who are afoot by a drop of her blood hitting the floor can somehow afterwards sneak past a dozen Undead sheriffs en route to ninja-diving onto the Big Boss at a perfectly opportune moment. :icon_rolleyes:
Post by: guest1291 on April 30, 2019, 06:06:12 AM
Ever since Lost jumped the shark--over and over again--I've ignored series TV drama. I feel much better for having made that decision. Fool me once.
Yeah, the writing on Lost went from decent to awful in no time.
Post by: guest1291 on April 30, 2019, 06:08:35 AM
I stopped watching GOT after season 5 aired, but in anticipation of the final season I recently decided to rewatch the entire series from the beginning. I'm currently making my through season 6, I'll report back when I get to season 8 :icon_mrgreen: But there are dubious moments throughout the entire series, and Arya's character arc hasn't always been one that I've enjoyed. It's interesting watching the entire series without the season breaks though, and noticing things I hadn't before. I never made it past the first book either so I have no idea what's going to happen!
Seasons 1-4 (mostly Seasons 1-3, really) compared with everything post-S4 feels like two separate shows. The lack of GRRM's involvement after S4 is glaringly obvious.
Post by: guest1291 on April 30, 2019, 06:35:59 AM
I had mixed feelings about the episode. My opinions:
I'll probably think of a few more things later, but that's what stick in my mind at the moment.I'm not exaggerating when I say tonight's episode represented the kind of writing you see from sixth graders on a writing assignment.
How far this show has fallen. :shrug
Honestly, tonight's episode felt like it was written in some 12-year-old's fantasy of how an epic story should play out.
Really, the show has not been good for nearly four seasons now, but lately it's gone off the deep end of plot contrivances, deus ex machina, and horrid logic.
There was a noticeable change in the writing when the show writers ran out of book material and had to start coming up with stuff on their own.
SPOILERS AHEAD:
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. And I just want to say off the hop, the following saltiness isn't aimed at you, it's aimed at the GOT showrunners who I feel have done their level best to ruin a franchise I love.
RE: Arya
I find Arya's arc to be illogical to the point of comedy. We saw her train a bit with Syrio in S1, and then she traveled around with those poor souls headed for the Wall and then later with the Hound. She received lessons in the harshness of the world and the coldness of the people living in it, but didn't receive much in the way of fight training other than some self-led water dance practice steps here and there during that time.
Then she goes to Braavos to the House of Black and White and her training consists of some assassination gigs that don't require much in the way of ninja skills other than some stabby stabby or using poison. And then it's about getting the crap beat out of her by the Waif while blind for a while.
She does manage to learn to use her staff with some precision, but then she's totally outclassed by the Waif in boxing class. Point is, at no point in the show do we see her in Braavos turning into the kind of superhero ninja assassin we're seeing her as now, at know point was she "owning" anyone. She was routinely beat up by the Waif. We were not shown her ever becoming the kind of fighter that could match or even best Brienne in a skirmish. I mean the show now makes her look like she could fight just about anyone, and that's so ridiculous given everything we've seen in the show.
Oh, and then there was that ridiculousness where she's stabbed in the gut repeatedly, then survives the jump into sewer water and after a night of rest she's running and leaping through the streets to elude the Waif doing a full-on T-1000 routine.
It's like the showrunners were so high on her character they just went ahead and leveled her up to a ridiculous degree and it totally feels unearned.
I don't disagree that Maisie Williams can act, but man I wish she'd had better material to work with.
Then there's Tyrion. Another ruined character. His cleverness apparently is too much for the showrunners to handle. He and Varys both have been reduced to Greek chorus status, or the two guys in the balcony on the Muppets, only with a penchant for toilet humor.
Aside from them and speaking more broadly, I don't even think it's an exaggeration to say at least 50% of the dialogue in S8E3, if not most of the dialogue this season in general, is old recycled lines from seasons past.
I don't even know why they bothered bringing Ghost back. I mean, if you've killed off all of the other direwolves, but you've spared this one, then maybe there's a reason? But, no, no point in looking for reason for anything with this show. The dragon scenes were so bad I thought maybe I was watching a big budget retelling of an 8 year old's play session with action figures. Really, this entire episode felt that way.
Yeah, I'm pretty salty about all of this. I apologize if I'm coming across as antagonistic, that's not my intent. But I really care about ASOIAF and for a long time I cared about the show, and it pains me to see how it's been treated.
I feel like the showrunners have insulted fans' intelligence with this mess. I feel like they underestimate the audience and are trying to pass off lazy, incoherent writing under the guise of BRIGHT, SHINY spectacle. Characters and world building this deep deserve better than that.
As far as book material goes, I also have a problem there too (who'd-a thunk it? :icon_mrgreen:). The showrunners could have used books four and five and adapted them far more closely than they did in the seasons after S4. They deliberately chose to move away from that source material and that's another reason why I heap criticism on them for how the show has gone since, and it's also why I am reticent to criticize GRRM for just how far the show has fallen.
Needless to say, I can't wait for GRRM's conclusion to the series. I have little doubt book 6 is finished and he and the publisher have been waiting for the show to wrap up before releasing to maximize impact.
Post by: Jeff Tanyard on April 30, 2019, 07:21:09 AM
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. And I just want to say off the hop, the following saltiness isn't aimed at you, it's aimed at the GOT showrunners who I feel have done their level best to ruin a franchise I love.
Oh, I understand. It's cool. :cheers
Quote
Then there's Tyrion. Another ruined character. His cleverness apparently is too much for the showrunners to handle. He and Varys both have been reduced to Greek chorus status, or the two guys in the balcony on the Muppets, only with a penchant for toilet humor.
On this, we agree. Similar thing happened to Baelish.
Quote
I don't even know why they bothered bringing Ghost back. I mean, if you've killed off all of the other direwolves, but you've spared this one, then maybe there's a reason?
Isn't Nymeria still alive? I've always thought of the direwolves as sort of avatars for the Stark kids. They lose their wolves when they start trusting outsiders over their own family or their own instincts. I think Arya even said something to that effect once about Sansa to explain her actions. "She lost her wolf." And Robb might still be alive if he had trusted Grey Wind's instincts instead of the Freys' hospitality.
That was another wasted moment in this episode, by the way. Arya's no longer a lost sheep, so Nymeria shouldn't be wandering in the wilderness anymore either. We've had a reunion between Arya and Jon, so we should have had a reunion between Ghost and Nymeria. It would have been awesome to see the two wolves going to battle side by side. But the writers prefer to blow the whole CGI budget on dragons, so there we are. I'm almost shocked we got to see as much of Ghost as we did.
Quote
Needless to say, I can't wait for GRRM's conclusion to the series. I have little doubt book 6 is finished and he and the publisher have been waiting for the show to wrap up before releasing to maximize impact.
I'll be flabbergasted if GRRM finishes the series. I'd like him to, obviously, but I'm expecting to be left hanging.
I loved the first book and eagerly bought the others. After the Red Wedding, though, I stopped getting emotionally invested in the characters. I simply don't care who lives or dies anymore. The series's main theme seems to be Rick Moranis's line from Spaceballs: "Evil will always triumph because good is dumb." And that makes for a feel-bad series. I'll read any future books just so I can finish what I started, but that's my only motivation at this point.
Post by: Edward M. Grant on April 30, 2019, 07:58:34 AM
I'll be flabbergasted if GRRM finishes the series. I'd like him to, obviously, but I'm expecting to be left hanging.
Ditto. It feels to me like he wrote a fantasy soap opera, and soap operas aren't designed to end. Usually they just stop, when they get cancelled.
Besides, if his ending is different to the TV show, people from now until next Tuesday will be complaining about how the two are different.
Post by: Denise on April 30, 2019, 08:11:20 AM
Even then, some things are weird. I understand simplifying and rushing, two problems in the last two seasons, but there are so many other problems.
Since season 6 there are no conflicts. Obstacles, yes, but no conflicts or dilemmas. Everything is solved easily.
In season 6 finale Dany went to westeros like that, puft. No conflict, no issues. Arya same thing. Cercey got rid of her political enemies and the militant faith easily as well. And from there everything goes straight forward unless characters make stupid decisions.
I like the visuals and the action of GOT, and I guess we got that. But it was pretty straightforward: walkers attack, Winterfell fights back, starts to lose, lose... At that point, with that music, slow motion, I knew a last minute positive thing was about to happen. I thought it would be a chance for some of the characters to escape. Nope. The army of the dead is destroyed. Yay. Easy peasy.
Same thing will happen in the next episodes. Some lame dialogue and character interaction without conflict, then things move straightforward.
Anyway, still some impressive cinematography.
Post by: German Translator on April 30, 2019, 08:57:54 AM
1. Let your Dothraki cavalry charge into the darkness. Yeah, that's a great idea!
2. You have a castle. The enemy has a large army of undead but no siege engines or even ladders (they have to climb over each other!). So obviously you place most of your defending army outside the walls instead of picking off enemies from afar
3. Use your dragon airforce a few times, but also have it fly around randomly. That's the ticket!
Visually, most of the episode reminded me of Calvin and his drawing of a "polar bear blinking in a blizzard" (https://www.gocomics.com/calvinandhobbes/1989/12/10)
Post by: ingobernable on April 30, 2019, 10:34:30 AM
The first time I watched the episode, it seemed so dark and messy, and I kept seeing faults in everything. I was even bored because I kept waiting for everyone to die. The second time I watched it, I actually enjoyed it, despite all the weird stuff. The best part was definitely Arya, and I wouldn’t have rewatched the whole thing if it weren’t for her.
I loved the foreshadowing and that she was the one who stopped the NK. After so many seasons and things we’d seen her go through and all the training, she was the only one who could pull something like this off. I found a lot of things hard to believe, like a lot of characters surviving when it looked like they shouldn’t, but this was definitely not one of those moments.
For most of the episode, I was worried it was going to be Jon with some ridiculous move, maybe even on Dany’s dragon that he somehow learned to perfectly ride only five seconds later after looking terrified when he was near it, and I’m so glad that didn’t happen. I was pleasantly surprised that the NK wasn’t stupid enough to let Jon just rush and fight him for no good reason either.
At first, it did seem like everything was resolved too easily, but it’s not like they ever stood a chance against the dead. Maybe if they let the dragons just constantly breathe fire, but the NK would probably solve that too with one of his little winter storms. Fighting the dead is not like fighting humans, and I guess I prefer when they fight humans because then things don’t look so hopeless. And when they’re not fighting mindless creatures who can keep coming, it’s possible to strategize better, so it's more interesting.
I still think they could’ve had a better strategy because at times it seemed like they hadn’t planned anything at all (wtf were the Dothraki doing just charging like that, and wouldn’t they set their hair and beards on fire with those flames? :P), but I’m not sure if it would’ve made a difference. They could’ve just stayed inside, but the NK’s dragon could break through the walls, so again, not much help unless Dany’s dragons took it down first, which would’ve been hard with that cold wind and snow. Although, the dragons appearing and disappearing at certain times could’ve been handled better because it seemed way too random, and I was left wondering why they just didn't burn all the dead, but I guess they don't like snow and cold. :D
Oh, and I’ll miss Lyanna Mormont so much. Such a badass. I also want to know what Bran was doing with those ravens and where they went. And the way he and the NK were looking at each other made me laugh.
Anyway, even with all the imperfections, it was all still kind of beautiful. The music was awesome too.
Post by: Jeff Tanyard on April 30, 2019, 01:41:51 PM
I liked the dagger switcheroo, though. She did that before when sparring with Brienne. Check it out:
Post by: Dormouse on April 30, 2019, 06:35:32 PM
I'll be flabbergasted if GRRM finishes the series. I'd like him to, obviously, but I'm expecting to be left hanging.
Ditto. It feels to me like he wrote a fantasy soap opera, and soap operas aren't designed to end. Usually they just stop, when they get cancelled.
If he based everything on the Wars of the Roses he'll end up with Henry VII.
And after him there were no stories.
Post by: Simon Haynes on April 30, 2019, 07:23:33 PM
Yes, there are strategy goofs, but I guess the Dothraki were sent out to die so that we (and the waiting defenders) could see all the flaming swords being snuffed out one by one. Like the dark lighting, it was done to build the fear of the unknown. I remember thinking it was a dumb move and a complete waste of life, but still valiant and brave and tragic.
My attitude is that GOT is entertainment, not a series of tutorials on medieval warfare. I'm willing to suspend disbelief and enjoy the ride.
Post by: floof on April 30, 2019, 08:46:05 PM
I haven't been watching the show and have no desire to start now, but I'm curious what you found so bad about it. Reading the episode summary on Wikipedia, it sounds like the big bad of the entire series was killed by a main character sneaking up behind him, in a deus ex machina sort of way. Is that right?
SPOILERS AHEAD:
Yes, apparently a character who can't traverse a room without alerting zombies who are afoot by a drop of her blood hitting the floor can somehow afterwards sneak past a dozen Undead sheriffs en route to ninja-diving onto the Big Boss at a perfectly opportune moment. :icon_rolleyes:
The point of the library scene was to show that [character] is so stealthy that blood dripping onto the floor is louder than [character]'s movements.
There was no deus ex machina. Just a lot of people who weren't happy with how it played out. Which is fine, they're not going to be able to please everyone, but it was extensively foreshadowed. For seasons.
For those who have seen the episode or don't mind spoilers, I give you this link (not written by me):
Post by: PJ Post on May 01, 2019, 12:09:22 PM
:tup3b :tup3b :tup3b
The pacing and tension and different genre pov's, not to mention the sheer spectacle? Genius to the point of Masterclass.
Arya's arc? Extremely well earned. Loved it. Subverting the Night King boss battle? Loved that too.
As for the Dothraki charge: 1) I thought that was their claim to fame? and 2) having all of those burning swords going out like that...Jesus, talk about ratcheting up the tension. I'd say that was the show's 'we're going to need a bigger boat' moment. Great scene.
All of the call-backs and character moments reminded me of Endgame, which I also loved. :banana-riding-llama-smiley-em
Post by: guest1291 on May 01, 2019, 03:49:34 PM
"This is the only war that matters, the Great War, and it is here."
All of the foreshadowing for 7+ seasons. All of the build-up.
The whole Night's Watch arc on the show. Sam seeing them at the Fist of the First Men, then killing a WW with dragon glass. Jon staring down the NK at Hardhome after taking on a WW and barely escaping in time.
All of the Children of the Forest imagery, the Weirwoods, the spiral formations going back to the beginning of Season 1, Episode 1.
Bran's journey north of the Wall. The bloody centuries-long existence of said Wall. The snickering in King's Landing about "grumpkins and snarks".
This ever-looming threat that supposedly rendered all of the southern Kings' bickering moot.
Ser Davos: "And then it doesn't matter whose skeleton sits on the Iron Throne."
A threat that boiled for a thousand years or longer, put in motion by the ancient Children of the Forest...the threat of the Long Night that approached for multiple seasons.
Ned Stark's ominous promise, his own house's prophetic words: "Winter is Coming"
The talk of Lightbringer, the Prince Who was Promised, the prophesied Azor Ahai...
All of that...extinguished...gone in one battle in one bloody episode...
And the person who extinguishes the greatest threat to all of humankind personified in the Night King? It's Arya Stark, who didn't even realize said bad guy existed until - what - maybe three weeks before she got him with that fatal stab?
Uh, yeah, I've got a problem with that.
Post by: Phronk on May 01, 2019, 10:18:23 PM
If anything, I think it’s been playing it too safe lately. Characters are just cruising along their character arcs, protected from death by plot armor until they reach their clearly demarcated destination. I guess the big bad’s end was kind of surprising in how it happened, but despite so many people hating it, even that seemed kind of safe. I would’ve liked it better if he accidentally tripped on a rock and impaled himself on dragon glass ... that would be more in line with the unpredictability and nihilism of earlier seasons.
Post by: ingobernable on May 02, 2019, 12:53:14 AM
I thought the NK could always tell where Bran is, and it didn't look like the ravens were pecking at him or anything. I guess it was supposed to be mysterious, because for a second there I thought he was helping the NK because the NK realized just what he had to do right after the ravens flew above the battlefield. I never liked Bran too much, so I guess I'm always expecting him to turn out to be evil or just manipulating the NK and everyone for some purpose. :icon_rofl:
I don't think it would've made sense for Arya to put on anyone's face because then she'd lose her advantage. She's small and quiet when she moves, and those dead guys were just standing and staring straight ahead, so if they don't hear her, they don't see her. And I believe the NK and Bran were standing farther apart from everyone else, so she had to rush to get to the NK because they would've seen her no matter what and there wasn't anything to hide behind, and the NK could feel she wasn't one of his. But since he sensed she was just a girl running at him, he didn't see her as too big of a threat, and he thought it would be easy to deal with her, like with Theon. If he'd seen her as a threat, he would've found a way to block her like he did with Jon.
Post by: Guerin on May 02, 2019, 11:59:00 PM
While the series may not have shown the amount of time that Arya spent training with the Faceless Men, I believe that in the book it is several years. Although you constantly saw her bested by the Waif, in the end, she kills the Waif. That was her final exam, to kill or be killed by a Faceless assassin. That was probably why the Waif disliked her so much from the very beginning. She knew that for Arya to succeed, she would have to die. That is why when Arya confronts Jaqen in the temple, after killing the Waif, Jaqen declares, "Finally a girl is no one."
Post by: guest169 on May 03, 2019, 03:25:33 AM
I haven't been watching the show and have no desire to start now, but I'm curious what you found so bad about it. Reading the episode summary on Wikipedia, it sounds like the big bad of the entire series was killed by a main character sneaking up behind him, in a deus ex machina sort of way. Is that right?
SPOILERS AHEAD:
Yes, apparently a character who can't traverse a room without alerting zombies who are afoot by a drop of her blood hitting the floor can somehow afterwards sneak past a dozen Undead sheriffs en route to ninja-diving onto the Big Boss at a perfectly opportune moment. :icon_rolleyes:
I am not against Arya killing the Night King, but I am against Deus Ex Arya flying out of the night sky through the undead and the ring of White Walkers without being detected! It stretches credibility. Jon, whom we've been watching develop into a hero for 8 fracking seasons, is ineffective and roars at the ice dragon??????? A frontal assault on the undead army by the Dothraki? Who decided on that tactic? The little girl in the catacombs? No interaction between Bran and the Night King? What TF was the purpose of Jon coming back from the dead??? His Valyrian steel sword should have at LEAST been involved in a battle with the Night King and THEN Arya, using her skills as a faceless man, should have been shown sneaking through the lines and then VOILA! She saves Jon's life and kills the Night King in one fell swoop.
TRIPLE UGH.
Stupid stupid writers... UGH
Post by: Post-Crisis D on May 03, 2019, 03:45:24 AM
I am not against Arya killing the Night King, but I am against Deus Ex Arya flying out of the night sky through the undead and the ring of White Walkers without being detected! It stretches credibility. Jon, whom we've been watching develop into a hero for 8 fracking seasons, is ineffective and roars at the ice dragon???????
There are some fans saying he wasn't screaming at the dragon but instead distracting the dragon while yelling "Go! Go! Go!" to Arya.
Post by: guest169 on May 03, 2019, 03:46:00 AM
I am not against Arya killing the Night King, but I am against Deus Ex Arya flying out of the night sky through the undead and the ring of White Walkers without being detected! It stretches credibility. Jon, whom we've been watching develop into a hero for 8 fracking seasons, is ineffective and roars at the ice dragon???????
There are some fans saying he wasn't screaming at the dragon but instead distracting the dragon while yelling "Go! Go! Go!" to Arya.
HAHA!
In their dreams...
Post by: PJ Post on May 04, 2019, 03:00:31 AM
I am not against Arya killing the Night King, but I am against Deus Ex Arya flying out of the night sky through the undead and the ring of White Walkers without being detected! It stretches credibility. Jon, whom we've been watching develop into a hero for 8 fracking seasons, is ineffective and roars at the ice dragon??????? A frontal assault on the undead army by the Dothraki? Who decided on that tactic? The little girl in the catacombs? No interaction between Bran and the Night King? What TF was the purpose of Jon coming back from the dead??? His Valyrian steel sword should have at LEAST been involved in a battle with the Night King and THEN Arya, using her skills as a faceless man, should have been shown sneaking through the lines and then VOILA! She saves Jon's life and kills the Night King in one fell swoop.
TRIPLE UGH.
Stupid stupid writers... UGH
Okay, here's my take...
1. Arya is not remotely, by any definition, a Deus ex machina. She trained/survived both in the school of hard knocks (essentially a homeless kid of the Seven Kingdoms) and as a Faceless Man assassin for seven years. In fact, she was the only one in Winterfell with the necessary skills to get close enough to the Night King to even have a shot at killing him. We got hints of her abilities over the last couple of seasons as direct foreshadowing (training with Brie, for example), and the writers even acknowledged that they had planned to have Arya kill the Night King three years ago. And just as a reminder:
Arya not only killed the Freys as revenge for the Red Wedding, but two of them (Lothar and Black Walder) were carved into pieces and baked into a pie. Arya then served the pie to their father, Walder Frey, before revealing herself as a Stark (by removing the face of another Frey family member she was wearing at the time) and slitting his throat.
Dues paid.
Mic dropped.
2. The Dothraki's most feared (and effective) weapon is their cavalry charge, right? Why wouldn't they go with what's worked for centuries? It's made clear that most of the defenders, even the commanders, don't really get what they're up against. Jon is constantly reminding them. I’d say the Dothraki were the Seven Kingdom’s equivalent of an artillery barrage. But more importantly…what a fantastic cinematic device, as story, emotion and pacing. Incredibly well done.
3. Once Jon has a clear shot at the Night King, he is faced with insurmountable and yet, believable, story-consistent obstacles that just pile up around him (good writing), until he is finally pinned down by the Zombie Dragon and unable to be the hero of the day - the expected hero, because we all expected him to kill the Night King - right up until he didn't. They did a really good job of subverting the hero trope (good writing). And because we weren't sure that's what they were doing, the tension kept rising as we tried to figure out who was going to be able to kill the Night King - and save Bran. His survival was very much in doubt. All of that is really good writing.
4. The little girl was foreshadowing.
5. What's the point of Jon coming back from the dead? A...It's not over yet, and B...um…the Iron Throne?
6. Arya did save Jon's life, she saved everyone. And it's not like Jon wasn't hip deep in blood - Valyrian steel kills zombies too.
And lastly:
Sorry, but the show is over. Martin isn't writing anymore books. The writers have exactly 6 episodes to wrap everything up - everything. I think they're doing a great job given their parameters. They're concentrating more on characters and arcs, which is good writing. Han Solo's death, by contrast, was bad writing because it wasn't earned; it was just like, "oh, so that happened." Arya's defeat of the Night King, on the other hand, while surprising-ish, was totally earned - and over the course of 7 seasons no less.
I’m not sure it’s fair to say the writers suck just because they didn’t satisfy specific fan-expectations.
Post by: Joe Vasicek on May 04, 2019, 03:05:25 AM
Post by: Edward M. Grant on May 04, 2019, 03:26:33 AM
There's an interesting discussion on Reddit from military folks about how incompetent the tactics were:
https://old.reddit.com/r/army/comments/bis3x4/battle_analysis_the_defense_of_winterfell_spoilers/
Note for the easily triggered: there's a fair amount of swearing involved.
Post by: guest1291 on May 04, 2019, 09:18:47 AM
I am not against Arya killing the Night King, but I am against Deus Ex Arya flying out of the night sky through the undead and the ring of White Walkers without being detected! It stretches credibility. Jon, whom we've been watching develop into a hero for 8 fracking seasons, is ineffective and roars at the ice dragon??????? A frontal assault on the undead army by the Dothraki? Who decided on that tactic? The little girl in the catacombs? No interaction between Bran and the Night King? What TF was the purpose of Jon coming back from the dead??? His Valyrian steel sword should have at LEAST been involved in a battle with the Night King and THEN Arya, using her skills as a faceless man, should have been shown sneaking through the lines and then VOILA! She saves Jon's life and kills the Night King in one fell swoop.
TRIPLE UGH.
Stupid stupid writers... UGH
Okay, here's my take...
1. Arya is not remotely, by any definition, a Deus ex machina. She trained/survived both in the school of hard knocks (essentially a homeless kid of the Seven Kingdoms) and as a Faceless Man assassin for seven years. In fact, she was the only one in Winterfell with the necessary skills to get close enough to the Night King to even have a shot at killing him. We got hints of her abilities over the last couple of seasons as direct foreshadowing (training with Brie, for example), and the writers even acknowledged that they had planned to have Arya kill the Night King three years ago. And just as a reminder:
Arya not only killed the Freys as revenge for the Red Wedding, but two of them (Lothar and Black Walder) were carved into pieces and baked into a pie. Arya then served the pie to their father, Walder Frey, before revealing herself as a Stark (by removing the face of another Frey family member she was wearing at the time) and slitting his throat.
Dues paid.
Mic dropped.
2. The Dothraki's most feared (and effective) weapon is their cavalry charge, right? Why wouldn't they go with what's worked for centuries? It's made clear that most of the defenders, even the commanders, don't really get what they're up against. Jon is constantly reminding them. I’d say the Dothraki were the Seven Kingdom’s equivalent of an artillery barrage. But more importantly…what a fantastic cinematic device, as story, emotion and pacing. Incredibly well done.
3. Once Jon has a clear shot at the Night King, he is faced with insurmountable and yet, believable, story-consistent obstacles that just pile up around him (good writing), until he is finally pinned down by the Zombie Dragon and unable to be the hero of the day - the expected hero, because we all expected him to kill the Night King - right up until he didn't. They did a really good job of subverting the hero trope (good writing). And because we weren't sure that's what they were doing, the tension kept rising as we tried to figure out who was going to be able to kill the Night King - and save Bran. His survival was very much in doubt. All of that is really good writing.
4. The little girl was foreshadowing.
5. What's the point of Jon coming back from the dead? A...It's not over yet, and B...um…the Iron Throne?
6. Arya did save Jon's life, she saved everyone. And it's not like Jon wasn't hip deep in blood - Valyrian steel kills zombies too.
And lastly:
Sorry, but the show is over. Martin isn't writing anymore books. The writers have exactly 6 episodes to wrap everything up - everything. I think they're doing a great job given their parameters. They're concentrating more on characters and arcs, which is good writing. Han Solo's death, by contrast, was bad writing because it wasn't earned; it was just like, "oh, so that happened." Arya's defeat of the Night King, on the other hand, while surprising-ish, was totally earned - and over the course of 7 seasons no less.
I’m not sure it’s fair to say the writers suck just because they didn’t satisfy specific fan-expectations.
All of this is spot on, and perfectly encapsulates just how bad this was/is, but he really hits the nail on the head beginning at 24:38...
CAUTION: EXTREMELY salty language - if profanity bothers you, definitely do not watch, there's a lot of it. A lot.
Post by: Jeff Tanyard on May 04, 2019, 11:03:48 AM
He didn't get it in the last episode, so he needs to get it at some point in the next three. And it needs to be a big deal, too, some grand thing that makes all his sacrifices worthwhile and rewards him for being the only claimant to the throne who doesn't really want the throne. Simply taking the Iron Throne as Dany's co-monarch (a la William and Mary) won't be enough.
What I'd like to see: Dany goes all "Mad King" on us. It wouldn't be a surprise. We've seen hints of her mental instability and psychopathy already. She's a chip off the old block. She wants the throne for selfish reasons, not because she actually cares about the people of Westeros. Sam asked Jon in episode 1 or 2 if Dany would make the same sacrifice he did--giving up the throne for the good of the people--and we all know the answer to that. So I'd like to see Dany embrace her inner Mad King Aerys and need to put down like a rabid dog. And I'd like Jon to do it. I'd love to see him stab her in her smarmy selfish heart with tears in his eyes. It would make for a full-circle series arc. The "game of thrones" all started when Jamie killed the mad king. It ends when Jon kills the mad queen. I doubt we'll get this. I predict we'll all be left unsatisfied by the conclusion of Jon's arc. But I'll hold out a sliver of hope until it's all over.
On a related note, the dragons need to die. Or, at the very least, they need to fly off to Essos or some place and never return. You can't have monsters roaming around the countryside after all the bad guys have been defeated.
And as much as I like Arya, she probably needs to die too, or at least leave Westeros. She'll overshadow Jon otherwise, and we can't have that if we want to have a big payoff for Jon. Maybe she can go to Braavos and be a teacher at the House of Black & White.
My personal take (http://www.onelowerlight.com/writing/?p=12446) on the controversy.
I agree with your conclusion that the series won't age well. I've seen the "American Tolkien" descriptions heaped upon GRRM, and I think they're absurd, especially in light of the fact that he intentionally set out to deconstruct Middle-Earth. But only time will tell.
Post by: guest1291 on May 04, 2019, 03:09:29 PM
Most of us can probably agree on this: Jon needs a big payoff for his character arc.
He didn't get it in the last episode, so he needs to get it at some point in the next three. And it needs to be a big deal, too, some grand thing that makes all his sacrifices worthwhile and rewards him for being the only claimant to the throne who doesn't really want the throne. Simply taking the Iron Throne as Dany's co-monarch (a la William and Mary) won't be enough.
What I'd like to see: Dany goes all "Mad King" on us. It wouldn't be a surprise. We've seen hints of her mental instability and psychopathy already. She's a chip off the old block. She wants the throne for selfish reasons, not because she actually cares about the people of Westeros. Sam asked Jon in episode 1 or 2 if Dany would make the same sacrifice he did--giving up the throne for the good of the people--and we all know the answer to that. So I'd like to see Dany embrace her inner Mad King Aerys and need to put down like a rabid dog. And I'd like Jon to do it. I'd love to see him stab her in her smarmy selfish heart with tears in his eyes. It would make for a full-circle series arc. The "game of thrones" all started when Jamie killed the mad king. It ends when Jon kills the mad queen. I doubt we'll get this. I predict we'll all be left unsatisfied by the conclusion of Jon's arc. But I'll hold out a sliver of hope until it's all over.
On a related note, the dragons need to die. Or, at the very least, they need to fly off to Essos or some place and never return. You can't have monsters roaming around the countryside after all the bad guys have been defeated.
And as much as I like Arya, she probably needs to die too, or at least leave Westeros. She'll overshadow Jon otherwise, and we can't have that if we want to have a big payoff for Jon. Maybe she can go to Braavos and be a teacher at the House of Black & White.My personal take (http://www.onelowerlight.com/writing/?p=12446) on the controversy.
I agree with your conclusion that the series won't age well. I've seen the "American Tolkien" descriptions heaped upon GRRM, and I think they're absurd, especially in light of the fact that he intentionally set out to deconstruct Middle-Earth. But only time will tell.
I like your ideas for the ending. Definitely something I could get behind. But, I fear none of that will happen. I like how you think though.
Post by: PJ Post on May 05, 2019, 12:47:17 AM
All of this is spot on, and perfectly encapsulates just how bad this was/is, but he really hits the nail on the head beginning at 24:38...
Already watched it. grint
I first found Mauler with his TLJ rage video. To be fair, this rage thing has become his shtick, and he's always going to hit trending stuff like GoT for views and subs. He did one on Black Panther, which was a bit of a reach, and then turned around and did an Unbridled Praise of Infinity War, which has all the same stupid sh*t as most of Marvel. But, he's funny as hell, and, by and large, I agree with his analysis. I definitely apply his thought process (the in-universe objective analysis) to my own work to root out any goofy sh*t that might sneak in. His detailed take on the new Star Wars stuff is really outstanding.
But...
This video applies to every episode of GoT. I loved the episode in spite of what it is. Did I wince at...everything to do with the trebuchets? Yeah. Or the zombies doing a WWZ up the walls of Winterfell? Yeah. Not that the zombies were doing it mind you, that was great, but that our heroes had no defense against it, had not even thought about an army attacking the walls because, as we all know, that never happens in a medieval world with castles. Or, what about the lingering peril that cast a constant pall over our main characters? It's all standard dramatic framing. And it’s been like this throughout the show's run. TWD is the same way. Characters acting against both current character arcs and personalities, and even against situational self-interest, just to create drama or cinematic moments. TV land is rife with this sh*t. The line of unacceptability is, of course, subjective.
Why did the Dothraki charge like that? Because the Dothraki are gonna Dothraki. Best not to think too hard about it. Why is plot armor more effective than real armor? Best not to think too hard on that either. Just assume they found a gap between the plates and move on. We don’t really want to dig into The Lord of the Rings like this do we?
So, I went with it and thought it was really well done. I realize, under the circumstances, that's a lot like being valedictorian of summer school - but, hey, it is what it is. :banana-riding-llama-smiley-em
Post by: Joe Vasicek on May 05, 2019, 03:08:15 AM
Why did the Dothraki charge like that? Because the Dothraki are gonna Dothraki.
Somewhere, in some parallel universe, Genghis Khan is doing a facepalm.
If you want to learn about effective leadership, logistical genius, strategic depth, political adeptness, and tactical brilliance, study the life of Genghis Khan and the history of the Mongols.
Post by: Simon Haynes on May 05, 2019, 11:59:38 AM
So, the Arya move was a huge surprise, and I had to watch it two or three times to let it really sink in.
As I said earlier in the thread, the show is entertainment. I'm happy they're making epic fantasy shows, and that people are watching them in droves. It all means a bigger potential audience for spec fic writers.
We used to dream of just having this stuff available back in the 70s and 80s. Now we're picking at plot holes and character motivations. (And I'll be the first to admit I was disappointed with the three Hobbit movies - especially their treatment of Bilbo. But if the alternative is NO fantasy or scifi, I'll take flawed any day.)
Post by: antares on May 05, 2019, 07:19:48 PM
All of this is spot on, and perfectly encapsulates just how bad this was/is, but he really hits the nail on the head beginning at 24:38...
Already watched it. grint
I first found Mauler with his TLJ rage video. To be fair, this rage thing has become his shtick, and he's always going to hit trending stuff like GoT for views and subs. He did one on Black Panther, which was a bit of a reach, and then turned around and did an Unbridled Praise of Infinity War, which has all the same stupid sh*t as most of Marvel. But, he's funny as hell, and, by and large, I agree with his analysis. I definitely apply his thought process (the in-universe objective analysis) to my own work to root out any goofy sh*t that might sneak in. His detailed take on the new Star Wars stuff is really outstanding.
But...
This video applies to every episode of GoT. I loved the episode in spite of what it is. Did I wince at...everything to do with the trebuchets? Yeah. Or the zombies doing a WWZ up the walls of Winterfell? Yeah. Not that the zombies were doing it mind you, that was great, but that our heroes had no defense against it, had not even thought about an army attacking the walls because, as we all know, that never happens in a medieval world with castles. Or, what about the lingering peril that cast a constant pall over our main characters? It's all standard dramatic framing. And it’s been like this throughout the show's run. TWD is the same way. Characters acting against both current character arcs and personalities, and even against situational self-interest, just to create drama or cinematic moments. TV land is rife with this sh*t. The line of unacceptability is, of course, subjective.
Why did the Dothraki charge like that? Because the Dothraki are gonna Dothraki. Best not to think too hard about it. Why is plot armor more effective than real armor? Best not to think too hard on that either. Just assume they found a gap between the plates and move on. We don’t really want to dig into The Lord of the Rings like this do we?
So, I went with it and thought it was really well done. I realize, under the circumstances, that's a lot like being valedictorian of summer school - but, hey, it is what it is. :banana-riding-llama-smiley-em
PJ Post and VHS, Thank you for posting this great rant. Saved me from wasting my time watching this POS.
Yeah, the final battle between the living and dead should have been the last episode. And it should have been handled far, far better. David Benioff and D.B. Weiss f*cked the show up beyond belief.
All that's left is the battle for the Iron Throne. Who cares? The fight for power in Westeros is more important than the fight for life itself? Are Benioff and Weiss that f*cking stupid? Evidently they are.
Prediction: Cercey is gonna lose. Jon Snow will get the throne. Why? 'Cause Benioff and Weiss ain't Martin, and they will write the script so that the good guy wins.
Where the hell was Robert's bastard, Gendry, in all this mess? He has some claim to the throne. Why not him? Why not Tyrion? Why not Sansa? Hell, why not Samwell? Why not Bronn? Why not Ash (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GULItNlBvJc)?
I mean, at this point, the Night King and the Army of the Dead are gone. How much difference does it make who sits on the Iron Throne?
Post by: Post-Crisis D on May 06, 2019, 01:47:24 AM
Yeah, the final battle between the living and dead should have been the last episode. And it should have been handled far, far better. David Benioff and D.B. Weiss f*cked the show up beyond belief.
All that's left is the battle for the Iron Throne. Who cares? The fight for power in Westeros is more important than the fight for life itself?
I'm guessing you probably weren't a fan of Babylon 5.
Post by: antares on May 06, 2019, 07:58:24 AM
Yeah, the final battle between the living and dead should have been the last episode. And it should have been handled far, far better. David Benioff and D.B. Weiss f*cked the show up beyond belief.
All that's left is the battle for the Iron Throne. Who cares? The fight for power in Westeros is more important than the fight for life itself?
I'm guessing you probably weren't a fan of Babylon 5.
You guess right.
Post by: PJ Post on May 06, 2019, 09:22:22 AM
Post by: ingobernable on May 07, 2019, 03:23:21 AM
Post by: Guerin on May 07, 2019, 04:18:20 AM
I cannot defend the latest episode in any way.
What about the dragon killing crossbows that must launch full-sized CA redwood tree trunks with steel tips? Those sailors must be related to Popeye since it seemed to take no time to reload. Maverick and Goose couldn't launch missiles that fast, and their missiles were nowhere near as accurate. Plus, how fast they must have been traveling to be effective puts a modern-day steam catapult system on an aircraft carrier to shame.
How did the enemy's anti-dragon weapons hit before she could see their ships? Do those dragon slaying tree trunks have some sort of magical guidance system to curve around those mountains? Are they just attracted to dragons, like magnetically or something?
I won't even mention the fact that these dragon-slayers were only located at the front of the ships, so going at them from behind might have worked better than taking them head on? Besides, isn't dragon skin supposed to be a lot tougher than that?
Do dragons need NVG to see in the dark? I'm no dragon expert, but I think they'd probably be very good night hunters. A night-time dragon attack on the enemy navy might have made sense? I guess it's been a while, a few thousand years I think, since any of them had an air force, so we can probably forgive their lack of tactics. What excuse did their navy have?
But the real rear-burner was how that prick just ran out on his dog. I'm pretty sure all the dog owners that were watching really got pissed at that. That wolf had saved his pathetic life how many times? He sends the dog off to Siberia with strangers, one ear missing from the latest battle, and doesn't even take the time to give him a farewell hug or pet him? FOR GOD'S SAKE MAN! You could have at least left the dog at home with the family.
Compared to all of that, the Starbucks cup on the table was not a biggy :)
https://www.theverge.com/2019/5/6/18530917/game-of-thrones-got-season-8-hbo-final-last-of-the-starks-starbucks-coffee-cup-blooper
Post by: German Translator on May 07, 2019, 05:25:26 AM
Quote
What about the dragon killing crossbows that must launch full-sized CA redwood tree trunks with steel tips?
Well, someone must also have secretly replaced the ships with replicas made of balsa wood, the way those arrows ripped through thick beams... :icon_rolleyes:
Post by: 123mlh on May 07, 2019, 07:58:36 AM
(SPOILERRRRRRRSSS!)Seriously. That was the point where I thought, now he dies. Weak-minded wimp.
But the real rear-burner was how that prick just ran out on his dog. I'm pretty sure all the dog owners that were watching really got pissed at that. That wolf had saved his pathetic life how many times? He sends the dog off to Siberia with strangers, one ear missing from the latest battle, and doesn't even take the time to give him a farewell hug or pet him? FOR GOD'S SAKE MAN! You could have at least left the dog at home with the family.
Overall, this latest episode was just awful IMO.
Post by: ingobernable on May 07, 2019, 09:16:40 AM
(SPOILERRRRRRRSSS!)Seriously. That was the point where I thought, now he dies. Weak-minded wimp.
But the real rear-burner was how that prick just ran out on his dog. I'm pretty sure all the dog owners that were watching really got pissed at that. That wolf had saved his pathetic life how many times? He sends the dog off to Siberia with strangers, one ear missing from the latest battle, and doesn't even take the time to give him a farewell hug or pet him? FOR GOD'S SAKE MAN! You could have at least left the dog at home with the family.
My first thought was how it would be fun if it was a sign Jon was going to go all mad Targaryen, especially with everyone gushing over him so much and trying to force him to be king. :icon_rofl: Poor Ghost. It looked like Jon didn't even bother to clean him up or anything. :icon_cry: If they wanted to show that he's accepting his Targaryen side or that he couldn't bring himself to say goodbye or whatever, then they failed, along with pretty much everything else. That scene was just awful.
Post by: Jeff Tanyard on May 10, 2019, 07:16:02 AM
On an unrelated note, I'd like to gently remind everyone of just how awesome Mark Addy was on this show. Just a great actor. :cool:
Post by: ingobernable on May 13, 2019, 02:22:32 PM
Now I'm only hoping for
Post by: Captain Cranky on May 13, 2019, 05:12:36 PM
Post by: Joe Vasicek on May 13, 2019, 05:20:07 PM
Post by: Jeff Tanyard on May 13, 2019, 06:08:34 PM
Oh geez. Is watching season 8 worth the angst? I'm one episode away from starting.... :icon_eek:
Post by: Jeff Tanyard on May 13, 2019, 06:27:14 PM
My reaction to 8x05: :icon_rofl: :icon_rofl: :icon_rofl: :HB :HB :HB :icon_think: :icon_rofl: :icon_rofl: :icon_rofl:
Now I'm only hoping for
Post by: Captain Cranky on May 13, 2019, 07:37:11 PM
Post by: Denise on May 14, 2019, 09:05:33 AM
- It got so bad it was funny.
- I no longer need to explain why I think the series has terrible writing.
- D&D were supposed to work on a Star Wars trilogy. Maybe TPTB will see reason after this conclusion. Please don't let them ruin the Old Republic.
- I think GRRM has been having writers block. I think it's so much pressure, etc. With this conclusion, he'll hopefully realize that whatever he writes is going to be better than the series.
Post by: PJ Post on May 14, 2019, 10:21:38 AM
They seem preoccupied with creating Cinematic Moments, rather than a cohesive story with logical character motivations.
Post by: Jeff Tanyard on May 14, 2019, 06:24:47 PM
:icon_mrgreen: :band: :icon_mrgreen:
Post by: guest1291 on May 15, 2019, 06:10:36 AM
There is no way after hearing those bells that the character being held aloft by citizens in S3E10 would have gone ahead after a full surrender by her enemies and burned an entire city killing thousands if not millions of innocents including children. Not the same show. Not the same characters. I don't who that was riding Drogon, but that wasn't Mhysa.
At this point I'm hoping she walks out next episode in front of all the survivors and removes her face to reveal she'd been replaced by the God of Death this entire time saying something like "only death can pay for life" and we find out Jaqen H'ghar killed the real Dany a long time ago.
Yep, that would still be crap writing, but it would still make more sense than what we're seeing.
Post by: Denise on May 15, 2019, 11:09:09 AM
At this point I'm hoping she walks out next episode in front of all the survivors and removes her face to reveal she'd been replaced by the God of Death this entire time saying something like "only death can pay for life" and we find out Jaqen H'ghar killed the real Dany a long time ago.
That's a great suggestion. It's certainly better than whatever they're going to write.
Does anyone have any suggestion for other issues:
- Do Dothraki and Unsullied respawn? (And they seem to respawn in greater numbers. Quite interesting)
- Are Dothraki and Unsullied fireproof?
- How did the Northern men act just as crazy as Dany and kept attacking with unnecessary violence and attacking civilians?
- When did Euron and Cersei downgrade their scorpions? From being a big threat making Dany's dragon ineffective, they became a joke.
- How did Jaime forget that his defining act was a character was to kill a king to protect innocents in the city, thus tainting his honor for life, and said he didn't care about the innocents? How did his hand grow back?
- Did Cersei forget she'd sent Bronn to kill Jaime? Or was she upset he was hurt instead of dead?
- Where did Vary's intelligence go? Tyrion's?
They wasted a great opportunity for some moral ambiguity by having Dany do something completely stupid, unnecessary, and unquestionably evil. She's worse than cartoon villains, because they usually do evil things to achieve a goal. Had Dany caused deaths in a way that she still felt was justified and she still believed she had the moral high ground, it would have been a lot more consistent with the character and a lot more interesting. But no, let's make sure she's completely evil, without any question, so she can be killed (probably by Jon), because GOT is about plain good and plain evil, right?
Post by: Joe Vasicek on May 15, 2019, 11:34:32 AM
Post by: Jeff Tanyard on May 15, 2019, 01:46:09 PM
It seems that the big takeaway from how Game of Thrones has turned out is that if, by some fantastic stroke of luck, your books get picked up for a TV series, finish the damned series before the TV show overtakes you!
Unless it was all a diabolical plot on George's part. Perhaps he decided to use the show as a test run to garner audience feedback. Then he'll write the remaining books the way everyone wanted the story to play out. He'll be the hero of the hour in the readers' eyes.
Just a theory. ;)
How did his hand grow back?
In case anyone is confused by this comment, here's what Denise is referring to:
(https://i.imgur.com/xl0rO4A.jpg)
:doh: :hehe
Just add it to the long list of derp for this season. On the plus side, now that Jaime has his hand back, maybe he's able to make mocha lattes and can find gainful employment in Dany's Winterfell franchise of Starbuck's.
(https://i.imgur.com/PPIzOYI.jpg)
On an unrelated note, this is funny:
:roll: :roll: :roll:
If I ever go to war, I want Captain Cthulhu and his anti-aircraft gun on my side. :icon_mrgreen:
Post by: Simon Haynes on May 15, 2019, 01:54:36 PM
Post by: Captain Cranky on May 15, 2019, 02:13:38 PM
On an unrelated note, this is funny:
:roll: :roll: :roll:
If I ever go to war, I want Captain Cthulhu and his anti-aircraft gun on my side. :icon_mrgreen:
:icon_rofl: The Loki one was particularly well-timed! That was awesome :littleclap
Post by: Simon Haynes on May 15, 2019, 10:28:01 PM
They have to use her skill somewhere this season.
Post by: Denise on May 16, 2019, 02:36:09 AM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D6knRayWwAEVcO8.jpg)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D6mf2tnXoAIaQYL.jpg)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D6mEtwpXsAARMKc.jpg)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D6l_QPMX4AALguv.jpg)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D6lRYSpUYAAaU2_.jpg)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D6mM5kXW0AApyx7.jpg)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D6lJbukUwAAVYB1.jpg)
Post by: Captain Cranky on May 18, 2019, 11:00:12 AM
Thought I'd share a video instead to lighten the mood :icon_rolleyes:
Post by: antares on May 18, 2019, 04:26:42 PM
Post by: Simon Haynes on May 18, 2019, 04:50:35 PM
]Season 8 of Game of Thrones makes me glad I have Stargate SG-1 on DVD.
Funny you should mention that. I started re-watching SG-1 from the first ep just this week. (It's all on Stan.)
"What do we have, and what do we need?"
"We have a Stargate. We need a dial home device."
Love it.
Post by: antares on May 18, 2019, 08:45:56 PM
Season 8 of Game of Thrones makes me glad I have Stargate SG-1 on DVD.
Funny you should mention that. I started re-watching SG-1 from the first ep just this week. (It's all on Stan.)
"What do we have, and what do we need?"
"We have a Stargate. We need a dial home device."
Love it.
Post by: Simon Haynes on May 18, 2019, 09:59:27 PM
Year before last I re-watched all of SG1 followed by SGA and all the movie-length specials. Then I started on Universe and gave up during the first ep. I've seen the whole series of SGU before, but ... nah.
Post by: JRTomlin on May 19, 2019, 09:17:48 AM
You don't understand. Any woman with power MUST be evil. It is the rule.
At this point I'm hoping she walks out next episode in front of all the survivors and removes her face to reveal she'd been replaced by the God of Death this entire time saying something like "only death can pay for life" and we find out Jaqen H'ghar killed the real Dany a long time ago.
That's a great suggestion. It's certainly better than whatever they're going to write.
Does anyone have any suggestion for other issues:
- Do Dothraki and Unsullied respawn? (And they seem to respawn in greater numbers. Quite interesting)
- Are Dothraki and Unsullied fireproof?
- How did the Northern men act just as crazy as Dany and kept attacking with unnecessary violence and attacking civilians?
- When did Euron and Cersei downgrade their scorpions? From being a big threat making Dany's dragon ineffective, they became a joke.
- How did Jaime forget that his defining act was a character was to kill a king to protect innocents in the city, thus tainting his honor for life, and said he didn't care about the innocents? How did his hand grow back?
- Did Cersei forget she'd sent Bronn to kill Jaime? Or was she upset he was hurt instead of dead?
- Where did Vary's intelligence go? Tyrion's?
They wasted a great opportunity for some moral ambiguity by having Dany do something completely stupid, unnecessary, and unquestionably evil. She's worse than cartoon villains, because they usually do evil things to achieve a goal. Had Dany caused deaths in a way that she still felt was justified and she still believed she had the moral high ground, it would have been a lot more consistent with the character and a lot more interesting. But no, let's make sure she's completely evil, without any question, so she can be killed (probably by Jon), because GOT is about plain good and plain evil, right?
Post by: Joe Vasicek on May 19, 2019, 09:24:47 AM
Any human with power MUST be evil. It is the rule.
FIFY
Post by: Bill Hiatt on May 19, 2019, 09:34:25 AM
It seems that the big takeaway from how Game of Thrones has turned out is that if, by some fantastic stroke of luck, your books get picked up for a TV series, finish the damned series before the TV show overtakes you!That's definitely good advice!
It's probably also a good idea to try to retain some creative input. Maybe that's never done with TV series, but I know the movie examples where the author was involved (Harry Potter series, Jurassic Park, Ready Player One) worked out better than some of the ones in which the author wasn't involved. Though some changes have to be made to adapt to a different medium, the literary originals often mutate to a disturbing extent during the process.
Post by: JRTomlin on May 19, 2019, 09:55:36 AM
No, in fiction powerful males are allowed not to be evil. Women, never. Now in real life, I'd agree.Any human with power MUST be evil. It is the rule.
FIFY
ETA: It is one of the oldest cliches in literature, and it says nothing good about the writing that they went for such a cheap and easy cliche.
Post by: antares on May 19, 2019, 10:20:33 AM
In 'The Long Night', Snow ducked behind a boulder to escape dead dragon fire. The stone withstood the fire.
In 'The Bells', dragon fire exploded the stone walls of the keep of King's Landing.
I am so done with this crap. If you want me, I will be watching my DVDs of Stargate SG-1.
Post by: Joe Vasicek on May 19, 2019, 01:45:49 PM
No, in fiction powerful males are allowed not to be evil. Women, never. Now in real life, I'd agree.Any human with power MUST be evil. It is the rule.
FIFY
ETA: It is one of the oldest cliches in literature, and it says nothing good about the writing that they went for such a cheap and easy cliche.
Galadriel.
Eowyn.
Vin.
Dejah Thoris.
Princess Leah.
Jane from Xenocide.
Petra.
The childlike empress.
Princess buttercup.
Honk honk!
Post by: ingobernable on May 20, 2019, 02:32:26 PM
He managed to get rid of both Jon and Dany very effectively and become king. Jon's face when Bran said "You were right where you were supposed to be." 
Jon was finally decent with Ghost. 
Maybe once everyone is away from Bran's influence, they can become themselves and decent again? 
This used to be such a serious show, and now I can't stop laughing about it. Post by: Captain Cranky on May 20, 2019, 07:23:10 PM
eta: typos...oh so many typos...
Post by: Guerin on May 20, 2019, 09:47:47 PM
Okay, so I'm glad it's over. At least I hope it's over. The last thing I want to see is some spin-off or something to cash in. :icon_eek:
eta: typos...oh so many typos...
Unfortunately, the last thing you want to see is happening. They are doing a prequel series :help
I think the biggest problem was the show outpaced the books and they were left to write their own ending. Then, to make matters even worse, they decided they could do that in six episodes instead of the normal ten. Imagine writing a novel, you're on page 599, and your editor tells you that you have 50 pages to wrap it up? The only thing to do is write "And they all lived happily ever after. The END."
Post by: Jake on May 21, 2019, 06:12:28 AM
Post by: Captain Cranky on May 21, 2019, 08:30:22 AM
Unfortunately, the last thing you want to see is happening. They are doing a prequel series :help
Ugh :icon_sad:
Post by: PJ Post on May 21, 2019, 10:59:58 AM
Pro writing tip (and I'm talking to you too Rian): Earn your drama.
Post by: JRTomlin on May 21, 2019, 12:29:51 PM
I do apologise. Millennia of sexism and misogyny did not really happen. It was all in my imagination and thousands of years did not establish a literary trope of evil, powerful women like:No, in fiction powerful males are allowed not to be evil. Women, never. Now in real life, I'd agree.Any human with power MUST be evil. It is the rule.
FIFY
ETA: It is one of the oldest cliches in literature, and it says nothing good about the writing that they went for such a cheap and easy cliche.
Galadriel.
Eowyn.
Vin.
Dejah Thoris.
Princess Leah.
Jane from Xenocide.
Petra.
The childlike empress.
Princess buttercup.
Honk honk!
Medea (Greek legend)
The Harpies (Greek legend)
Lady Macbeth (Macbeth)
Mrs. Havisham (Great Expectations)
Cathy Ames (East of Eden)
Maleficent (Sleeping Beauty)
Bellatrix Lestrange (Harry Potter)
Miranda Priestly (Devil Wears Prada)
Ursula (The Little Mermaid)
Nurse Ratched (One Flew Over the Cuckoo’s Nest)
Matilda Trunchbull (Matilda)
Wicked Witch of the West (The Wizard of Oz)
Lady Tremaine (Cinderella)
Mystique (X-Men)
Cruella De Vil (101 Dalmatians)
Jadis the White Witch (The Chronicles of Narnia)
Queen of Hearts (Alice in Wonderland)
The Evil Queen (Snow White)
And it was not at all cliched to turn Dany into an Evil Queen. Of course, it was not. :clap:
Post by: Joe Vasicek on May 21, 2019, 02:25:46 PM
Be precise with your words, please. I know we live in a clown world where everyone is addicted to sarcasm and outrage, but that doesn't make it right.
Post by: JRTomlin on May 21, 2019, 02:31:27 PM
ETA: Misogyny in fiction not only happens, it has happened with such regularity that much of it is in fact cliche. That is exactly what the end of Dany's story arc was, a pathetic cliche.
Post by: Joe Vasicek on May 21, 2019, 04:09:20 PM
...okay, that was a joke I could not resist making, given the context. I'll stop now.
Post by: guest1291 on May 22, 2019, 05:04:20 AM
And this is why the writing matters. What a disappointing misguided clusterf*ck. :HB
Pro writing tip (and I'm talking to you too Rian): Earn your drama.
This. Exactly this. Well put. Earn your drama.
Also, I just want to point out... there's always this idea I see spread around that D&D "ran out" of book material to adapt for the TV show. This is not true. Most of A Feast for Crows and A Dance with Dragons was left unadapted. That was a decision the showrunners made.
Truth be told, there's more than enough material in the 5 main ASOIAF books we have currently to fill the 10 seasons/10 episodes each that HBO had expressed interest in funding. The idea to condense/consolidate and dash off a rush-job rests entirely on D&D's shoulders.
I hope they do a better job with their Star Wars project, but after seeing how they've handled this show, and knowing that at least one of them worked on the writing for the crap-fest that was X-Men Origins: Wolverine, I'm not optimistic.
Post by: Jeff Tanyard on May 22, 2019, 06:48:17 AM
https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/the-real-reason-fans-hate-the-last-season-of-game-of-thrones/ (https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/the-real-reason-fans-hate-the-last-season-of-game-of-thrones/)
Post by: PJ Post on May 22, 2019, 08:36:44 AM
An interesting blog post on Scientific American about the series:
https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/the-real-reason-fans-hate-the-last-season-of-game-of-thrones/ (https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/the-real-reason-fans-hate-the-last-season-of-game-of-thrones/)
The author seems to be overthinking it a bit.
The problem, the big problem that everyone is citing (apart from the TSTL thing), is that the whole season was impossibly rushed. Everything could have ended just as it did, but we needed some story to get the characters into place. Jamie leaves Brienne for Cersei...m'kay. But we need a narrative reason, not a one-liner that not only undoes Jamie's entire three-season character arc, but destroys his very core psychology. Season one...Jamie saves the people of King's Landing, regardless of the personal cost (King Slayer), from a Mad King. Fast forward to the finale and Jamie doesn't really care about the people, innocent or not. WTF? Do these guys even watch the show?
Yes, it is possible for Luke to go full Dark Side and murder his teenage nephew - BUT we need some serious motherf*cking story to get there. Sorry, a flashback served three ways doesn't cut it. Same with Game of Thrones.
The current season of Walking Dead is suffering from the same thing. Characters have completely different personalities now, unexplained motivations that make no sense except to set up scenes the new showrunner thinks might be cool or poignant. And no, you can't tell that story in reverse, not once we've come to know these characters so well.
And I don't mind politics or social commentary, in fact, I kind of like 'em - as long as they fit logically into the existing narrative and further either character or plot. I don't get it, there are a lot of really really good writers out there - I know, I've seen their work - why is this so hard?
Post by: Guerin on May 22, 2019, 09:37:06 PM
And this is why the writing matters. What a disappointing misguided clusterf*ck. :HB
Pro writing tip (and I'm talking to you too Rian): Earn your drama.
This. Exactly this. Well put. Earn your drama.
Also, I just want to point out... there's always this idea I see spread around that D&D "ran out" of book material to adapt for the TV show. This is not true. Most of A Feast for Crows and A Dance with Dragons was left unadapted. That was a decision the showrunners made.
Truth be told, there's more than enough material in the 5 main ASOIAF books we have currently to fill the 10 seasons/10 episodes each that HBO had expressed interest in funding. The idea to condense/consolidate and dash off a rush-job rests entirely on D&D's shoulders.
I hope they do a better job with their Star Wars project, but after seeing how they've handled this show, and knowing that at least one of them worked on the writing for the crap-fest that was X-Men Origins: Wolverine, I'm not optimistic.
No one will argue that there wasn't enough material in the books to fill 10 seasons/10 episodes. They did skip over a lot. We can have an entirely different discussion about that. When we say they ran out of material from the books, we are talking about the fact that their decision, wherever it came from, to truncate this down to 8 seasons, and only 6 episodes in season 8, meant they had to skip to the ending before that/those book(s) were written. They had no material, other than perhaps a rough outline from the author, to use to write the ending.
The decision to cut the series short was the biggest problem, but another part of the problem is the author, R.R. Martin. He's been doing a lot of everything except writing lately. That's fine, except he is the one who decided how many books would be in this series. There are a lot of people now turned off to reading the books since the series is not complete, and may never be. The only ending they have to the series is the HBO ending. When HBO negotiated the series with him, they should have stipulated that he had to deliver the series ending within a timeframe that matched their production schedule or face a financial penalty. He had eight years for God's sake! Now that the HBO series is over, the interest in R.R. Martin's books will surely dwindle. Maybe he's made enough money and just doesn't care?
Post by: antares on May 23, 2019, 12:22:14 AM
Zeynep Tufekci -- that's the author of this glib screed -- is an academic and thinks like an academic. My guess is she is still defending her dissertation in every thing she writes. Seems that way. (BTW if you click on her name in the article, it jumps to a link that is titled 'Stories by Zeynep Tufekci'. They are not stories. Stories need characters and a plot -- unless you are Bruce Sterling and f*ck him. They are articles. Like this one.)
Why do all the editors of SF magazines say they want character-driven stories? Because their experience is that sogenannte character-driven stories get readers engaged and sell magazines.
People want to identify with characters. Why? I don't know, but I know it's true.
The scary thing about GoT is that no one ever knew if their favorite character would survive the episode. I was happy when Bailish got his throat cut, but I was upset when they offed Varys. I swore that I would give up the series if they killed Tyrion. Well, they never did, but they drained the life out of him in season 8. He spent the whole season begging for mercy for others. Big damned fall from that 'f*ck you all' scene at his trial.
It's no use trying to write 'sociological' stories. They don't work, and they don't sell. No one wants to read 'em.
Write stories about people. Put 'em in difficult situations, in bad situations and let 'em fight their way out. Make the stakes high -- life or death -- 'cause nobody gives a flying f*ck that some yahoo lost his fortune in the bust of the real estate bubble. But don't have Arya Stark kill the f*cking Night King in one episode and then run away like a scared little girl two episodes later. It's out of character, it's stupid, and it's insulting. I want to take a softball bat to the hands of Benioff and Weiss.
Anyway, forget 'sociological' stories. No such animal. Write stories about people.
Let me put it to you this way: American Beauty or Guardians of the Galaxy. Which do you want to see again?
An interesting blog post on Scientific American about the series:
https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/the-real-reason-fans-hate-the-last-season-of-game-of-thrones/ (https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/the-real-reason-fans-hate-the-last-season-of-game-of-thrones/)
Post by: guest1291 on May 23, 2019, 07:06:45 AM
And this is why the writing matters. What a disappointing misguided clusterf*ck. :HB
Pro writing tip (and I'm talking to you too Rian): Earn your drama.
This. Exactly this. Well put. Earn your drama.
Also, I just want to point out... there's always this idea I see spread around that D&D "ran out" of book material to adapt for the TV show. This is not true. Most of A Feast for Crows and A Dance with Dragons was left unadapted. That was a decision the showrunners made.
Truth be told, there's more than enough material in the 5 main ASOIAF books we have currently to fill the 10 seasons/10 episodes each that HBO had expressed interest in funding. The idea to condense/consolidate and dash off a rush-job rests entirely on D&D's shoulders.
I hope they do a better job with their Star Wars project, but after seeing how they've handled this show, and knowing that at least one of them worked on the writing for the crap-fest that was X-Men Origins: Wolverine, I'm not optimistic.
No one will argue that there wasn't enough material in the books to fill 10 seasons/10 episodes. They did skip over a lot. We can have an entirely different discussion about that. When we say they ran out of material from the books, we are talking about the fact that their decision, wherever it came from, to truncate this down to 8 seasons, and only 6 episodes in season 8, meant they had to skip to the ending before that/those book(s) were written. They had no material, other than perhaps a rough outline from the author, to use to write the ending.
They're writers. I don't think they get a pass for writing a poor ending simply because there was no book material to adapt from. Writers write.
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The decision to cut the series short was the biggest problem, but another part of the problem is the author, R.R. Martin. He's been doing a lot of everything except writing lately. That's fine, except he is the one who decided how many books would be in this series.
The showrunners decided to jettison from the book material back when there was still plenty of book material to use. That's on them and that decision is what's led to the crappy ending. Again, even if all they had was an outline from GRRM right from the start, they're writers - it's what they're being paid big money to do. I don't place any of the blame for the show's terrible writing on GRRM. He gave them his notes, the highly paid professional writers should be more than able to take it from there. That there wasn't strict book material there for them to use or George himself there to hold their hands should not absolve their terrible writing.
Quote
There are a lot of people now turned off to reading the books since the series is not complete, and may never be. The only ending they have to the series is the HBO ending. When HBO negotiated the series with him, they should have stipulated that he had to deliver the series ending within a timeframe that matched their production schedule or face a financial penalty. He had eight years for God's sake! Now that the HBO series is over, the interest in R.R. Martin's books will surely dwindle. Maybe he's made enough money and just doesn't care?
Completely disagree. We have no idea what was in their deal. Maybe his notes and outlines were enough for them, or they at least agreed as such even if in practice they'd proved it wasn't enough from a storytelling perspective.
Anyway, I don't think interest in the books has been hurt at all. If anything I think the interest in the books is at an all-time high thanks to the devolution of the show and fan disappointment with D&D's writing. I imagine when Winds comes out the sales will be through the roof. And honestly, as a writer, I say let GRRM take as long as he wants with a world he's conceived and built. If he wants to take another decade or decides not to finish it at all, that's his prerogative. I get there'd be disappointment and many people are tired of waiting, but I side with GRRM on this. It's his baby.
Post by: Joseph Malik on May 31, 2019, 11:40:06 PM
Hear me out.
Go back to the opening scene. The very first scene, in S1E1, with the White Walkers.
That scene exists--in the books and the show--to throw the rest of their bullsh*t into relief. We know something that the characters don't: none of their squabbling and jockeying matters. The existence of the White Walkers makes all of their struggles to "rule" Westeros secretly futile and therefore ironic. Unless I missed something, the entire subtext of the show is right there in the prologue. (Pretty sure I talked about this on either this forum or the other one when I was describing what a prologue is in fantasy and what it's supposed to do. Very few have ever done it this well.)
Once the writers removed the White Walkers, we were left with Survivor: King's Landing. Yawn. Idiotic.
However, they weren't wrong: hordes of mouth-breathing reality TV fans across America wanted to see "their favorite" on the throne, and D&D completely pandered to them. It was brilliant marketing, because the show did get off-track as its popularity soared, and it did, in a lot of ways, turn into more or less a reality show, with fans breaking off into factions. However, the moment the White Walkers were defeated, the series turned into the exact opposite of what the story was originally about.
Post by: Lorri Moulton on January 21, 2020, 06:32:10 AM
At the time I saw this, my guess about the ending was Dany would get pregnant, Jon would die in Dany's arms after defeating the Night King, Tyrion would find out he's a Targaryen and help Dany raise the baby...who would be the Prince that was Promised. I've heard that is not what happened, so I'll just stop with Season 7.
ETA: If you haven't seen the episode, there is some adult content.