Writer Sanctum
Writer's Haven => Quill and Feather Pub [Public] => Topic started by: JRTomlin on November 09, 2019, 12:11:56 PM
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Starting a thread for everyone who is in the middle of an edit to come and whine. Have I mentioned that I hate, hate, hate editing?
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I'm past the self-edit stage and now I'm plugging in stuff from my editor. Tedious at best. The worst part is there is more red ink on this book than any other I've written. Very disheartening.
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I'm still editing from beta readers and it goes to an editor next.
Does "He yelped himself awake..." make sense? 🙄
It does suck when there's a lot of red.
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I'm still editing from beta readers and it goes to an editor next.
Does "He yelped himself awake..." make sense? 🙄
It does suck when there's a lot of red.
I've yelped myself awake several times. :icon_rolleyes:
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I've yelped myself awake several times.
I yelp when I spill hot water on my foot.
Then again, the cat jumping on my foot with claws out can cause waking with a yelp. Followed by iodine and a bandaid.
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Thanks. I think that phrase works oddly enough. That is one sentence fixed.
I tell you what I think bugs me so much about editing is that you go through fixing a sentence her or a punctuation mark there without producing anything new. I don't get any feeling of satisfaction for my effort. At the end of the day in spite of having spent a lot of time editing, often more than I would writing new material, I feel as though I haven't accomplished anything. I know I have, but it just doesn't feel like it.
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I haven't done this for the past 3-4 novels, but for my WIP I'm considering printing the whole thing out, retiring to some quiet spot and then reading it through with a red pen at the ready.
I quite enjoy the process, but I do have a rule that the pen has to sit on the bed or table next to the manuscript, rather than in my hand. That way I don't keep scrawling trivial changes on the pages, because anything I want to change has to be so bad it's worth picking up the pen for.
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I haven't done this for the past 3-4 novels, but for my WIP I'm considering printing the whole thing out, retiring to some quiet spot and then reading it through with a red pen at the ready.
I quite enjoy the process, but I do have a rule that the pen has to sit on the bed or table next to the manuscript, rather than in my hand. That way I don't keep scrawling trivial changes on the pages, because anything I want to change has to be so bad it's worth picking up the pen for.
I did this but I formatted my book through draft2digital and ordered proof copies thru kdp. (I hate printing and it always costs me too much money). I also found that using pen and paper stopped me from fiddling with inconsequential changes and as well as finding actual mistakes.
I hated it though. If I hadn't had a deadline I don't think I ever would have finished. I feel your pain.
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I have a cheap ($90) laser printer, and I order the toner online (cheap knock-off copies, $16 ea. The real ones are closer to $120.)
I print on one side of the paper, and when I've finished with the MS I crop it into two halves and staple the pages into scrap paper notebooks. I always keep those near the bed so I can scrawl three pages of plot notes and ideas in the middle of the night.
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I haven't done this for the past 3-4 novels, but for my WIP I'm considering printing the whole thing out, retiring to some quiet spot and then reading it through with a red pen at the ready.
I quite enjoy the process, but I do have a rule that the pen has to sit on the bed or table next to the manuscript, rather than in my hand. That way I don't keep scrawling trivial changes on the pages, because anything I want to change has to be so bad it's worth picking up the pen for.
I did this but I formatted my book through draft2digital and ordered proof copies thru kdp. (I hate printing and it always costs me too much money). I also found that using pen and paper stopped me from fiddling with inconsequential changes and as well as finding actual mistakes.
I hated it though. If I hadn't had a deadline I don't think I ever would have finished. I feel your pain.
I usually get a copy printed via Lulu and use post-its (sticky notes) to mark up all the errors - the excitement of seeing the thing as an actual book almost makes up for the task of editing. Also, I take the post-its out as I progress through the edit, so it is quite satisfying to see the number in the book diminishing as I go along.
PS I quite like some aspects of editing. What I really hate is the part where you have to move chunks of the book around or even delete them, but that all happens well before the printed book stage.
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I like the feeling that editing is improving my story. What I don’t like is getting beta readers’ reports saying I’ve still got work to do. That’s what I pay them to tell me, but I would prefer that they all say they loved everything about the story as is. I can tell when an edit pass has strengthened the story but I do struggle with the need to keep doing more of them. Were I to hire a developmental editor and receive back a long list of things needing change, I’d be so daunted by the amount of work ahead I’d probably clutch.
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I like the feeling that editing is improving my story. What I don’t like is getting beta readers’ reports saying I’ve still got work to do. That’s what I pay them to tell me, but I would prefer that they all say they loved everything about the story as is. I can tell when an edit pass has strengthened the story but I do struggle with the need to keep doing more of them. Were I to hire a developmental editor and receive back a long list of things needing change, I’d be so daunted by the amount of work ahead I’d probably clutch.
Don't we always think our babies are perfect? :angel:
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Ugh. I just got a beta reader report back and I have a lot to do. I know plotting is my weak point and that was confirmed. Thank goodness the writing, world building and dialog received good feedback. I have to let it sink in so that I can see how to strengthen it and where to add scenes.
Next time, I swear, I will start with a strong plot.
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I really want to move past editing to get to new projects. A lot of you guys write new stuff and edit. I don't like to do that because I rather immerse myself in a story and write out the draft all at once. Now I have two books I'm editing at the same time. The result is major procastination and edit, edit, editing instead of write, write, writing over the past two weeks. :icon_sad:
And taking lots of breaks writing on writersanctum Grin
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Sorry but can't understand folks who hate editing. A book is made in the editing. If I could skip the writing and go straight to the editing that's what I'd do. Editing is terrific fun.
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It is an unpleasant necessity as far as I'm concerned.
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Sorry but can't understand folks who hate editing. A book is made in the editing. If I could skip the writing and go straight to the editing that's what I'd do. Editing is terrific fun.
I totally agree. And for the newer writers out there, editing (adding, subtracting, moving words around) is the quality control part of the writing process. It’s where we take a mediocre book and make it the best it can be. Not everyone sees it as a barely worthwhile pain in the ass.
In fact, it’s okay to love editing. It’s my favorite part. I liken it to a brush on canvas, moving layers of paint around until they capture exactly what I’m trying to say - even if I don't.
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Frankly, if your book is mediocre moving a few words around will not make it brilliant. And I did not describe it as 'barely worthwhile' so don't put words in my mouth. Thanks.
It is a necessary step to present a good work at its best. That does not make it enjoyable for those of us who do not enjoy it.
ETA: I also lay paint on canvas. When I am writing. Editing is cleaning up the bits where I accidentally let the paint splatter.
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Frankly, if your book is mediocre moving a few words around will not make it brilliant.
For me, editing (rewriting, cycling, reworking, developmental editing, substantive editing, restructuring, deleting words, adding words, refining - seriously, whatever you want to call it) is far more than moving a few words around. And yes, it's this process that often turns average books into brilliant ones. Well, that's what many of the 20th century masters claim, anyway.
I agree that proofreading is an extremely tedious, yet necessary pain in the ass. So, if that was what you were talking about, then never mind - I agree.
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Sorry but can't understand folks who hate editing. A book is made in the editing. If I could skip the writing and go straight to the editing that's what I'd do. Editing is terrific fun.
I totally agree. And for the newer writers out there, editing (adding, subtracting, moving words around) is the quality control part of the writing process. It’s where we take a mediocre book and make it the best it can be. Not everyone sees it as a barely worthwhile pain in the ass.
In fact, it’s okay to love editing. It’s my favorite part. I liken it to a brush on canvas, moving layers of paint around until they capture exactly what I’m trying to say - even if I don't.
LOL. I think the purpose of the thread was pretty clear. I don't know why you'd want to jump into the thread just to say you don't need this thread.
On the one hand, you're very vocal about the fact that you think indie authors are missing the opportunity to embrace the art of being indie, and on the other, you openly chastise anyone who approaches the art and craft of writing (and editing) from a different angle than the one you take. :D
I mean, kind of sounds like a "do it your way, but only if it's my way" argument. :D
Maybe that's not your intent. But that is definitely what I see when I read posts like this one.
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I know the two novels I had the most trouble with were early NanoWrimo efforts (2005 and 2006, I think). Those were 50,000 words of sentence soup, where I'd write unconnected scenes just to make the daily count. They needed to be padded out to 80k, too. I ended up throwing it all away in the end, because that level of editing and rewriting is a nightmare, and it's a lot faster to just take the idea and start a whole new draft.
Now my process is hugely different, because I don't write a scene unless I have a few sentences of outline for it. Same goes for the next chapter or two, which ensures they fit the plot.
Thinking back to those early days gives me the shudders, and it's why I now write every chapter as though it's never going to be edited. Finished copy, in other words, barring any typos, plot holes and the like.
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I think my main problem is I'm either too in-love with my words to want to change them, or I abhor my words so much I don't want to have to reread them. Either way, it has to be done so I do it.
:dizzy :shrug :help
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I mean, kind of sounds like a "do it your way, but only if it's my way" argument. :D
Maybe that's not your intent. But that is definitely what I see when I read posts like this one.
I split this part out to apologize for my poor communication on the matter. I don't believe in any One True WayTM - for much of anything. All we have are best practices that may or may not work for everyone, and I strongly believe that everyone needs to find their own path.
LOL. I think the purpose of the thread was pretty clear. I don't know why you'd want to jump into the thread just to say you don't need this thread.
The term 'editing' gets used for lots of different literary processes, so, no, it wasn't clear at all.
On the one hand, you're very vocal about the fact that you think indie authors are missing the opportunity to embrace the art of being indie, and on the other, you openly chastise anyone who approaches the art and craft of writing (and editing) from a different angle than the one you take. :D
It's not about being Indie, it's about writing better books. The folks who have been at this for a while are going to do what they're going to do - you do you - but the newer writers, the ones who got caught up in the publishing fast churn, or that our books only need to be good enough, or writing to market, or whatever the latest self-publishing wisdom of the week is, need to know their options. I want to encourage them to stick with it. To that end, editing, in all of its forms, has always been a critical part of the literary process. So many Indies see it as unnecessary because they're not writing literary fiction, which is missing the entire point.
I don't want new writers to get proofreading confused with rewriting and other forms of editing.
eta: editing is one of those best practices.
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The best info and perspective on editing that I've found is from Rachel Aaron's "2k to 10k: Writing Faster, Writing Better, and Writing More of What You Love". Don't let the title mislead you; it covers a lot more than simply strategies to improve word count. It spends a big chunk of the book discussing editing.
https://www.amazon.com/2k-10k-Writing-Faster-Better-ebook/dp/B009NKXAWS
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I mean, kind of sounds like a "do it your way, but only if it's my way" argument. :D
Maybe that's not your intent. But that is definitely what I see when I read posts like this one.
I split this part out to apologize for my poor communication on the matter. I don't believe in any One True WayTM - for much of anything. All we have are best practices that may or may not work for everyone, and I strongly believe that everyone needs to find their own path.
I guess this is what's being lost in translation. I've read oodles of your posts over the years, here and there (the other place), and I've pretty much always agreed when you start talking about how we shouldn't feel straitjacketed to the write to market, commercial approach. But I just can't agree that the only way to make a book better is to take a pen to it and start fiddling.
Sometimes, once a book is done, it's the best is can be and messing with it is going to do nothing but turn it into a shadow of what it could have been, because a book is more than a collection of sentences and paragraphs. It has energy. Once you start fiddling, it's very easy to screw that up. New authors would be best served IMO to be very cautious of edits and revision. It can take a passable or a good book and make it terrible. It can take a great book and make it mediocre.
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Quote from Lynn:
Sometimes, once a book is done, it's the best is can be and messing with it is going to do nothing but turn it into a shadow of what it could have been, because a book is more than a collection of sentences and paragraphs. It has energy. Once you start fiddling, it's very easy to screw that up. New authors would be best served IMO to be very cautious of edits and revision. It can take a passable or a good book and make it terrible. It can take a great book and make it mediocre.ometimes, once a book is done, it's the best is can be and messing with it is going to do nothing but turn it into a shadow of what it could have been, because a book is more than a collection of sentences and paragraphs. It has energy. Once you start fiddling, it's very easy to screw that up. New authors would be best served IMO to be very cautious of edits and revision. It can take a passable or a good book and make it terrible. It can take a great book and make it mediocre.
(End quote)
I think this can be true quite often. I sometimes feel really good about the plot and structure of a book when I finish the first draft, which is a great feeling and not always an illusion! It still needs to go through line edits and proof-reading, of course. But just occasionally even in a long genre series (in my case this happened with the 18th book in a series and was quite a shock to the system) something goes horribly wrong and you just know it needs serious structural work - not so much to turn it from mediocre to brilliant or anything approaching that, but to turn it into any kind of a book. In that particular case there was nothing else for it but to slow right down and get the bones of the story right before doing anything else.
(Ironically, one of the reviews on that book complimented me on my plotting!)
{Fixed quote. t.} Thanks for fixing! I couldn't get my tablet to quote properly.
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I agree completely with the importance of getting professional editing eyes, line/copy edit and proofread, to look over your work and then revising it. It has to be done. But that doesn't mean I have to like doing it.
I prefer the process of writing fresh new manuscripts. As the story moves with my keystrokes, it's like reading a book.
And now I'm going to edit some more. grint
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I guess this is what's being lost in translation. I've read oodles of your posts over the years, here and there (the other place), and I've pretty much always agreed when you start talking about how we shouldn't feel straitjacketed to the write to market, commercial approach. But I just can't agree that the only way to make a book better is to take a pen to it and start fiddling.
Sometimes, once a book is done, it's the best is can be and messing with it is going to do nothing but turn it into a shadow of what it could have been, because a book is more than a collection of sentences and paragraphs. It has energy. Once you start fiddling, it's very easy to screw that up. New authors would be best served IMO to be very cautious of edits and revision. It can take a passable or a good book and make it terrible. It can take a great book and make it mediocre.
Apparently, writing is hard. grint
And I agree; it’s super easy to ruin a book in editing, to lose our voice, or the thing that made it special or worth writing in the first place. It's why I'm always saying that writers should find an editor (not proofreader) who gets what they're doing.
But...
The first draft is almost never the best version of anything. Some poetry...some musical recordings...but exceedingly few.
For example (and I've seen this), a book showing someone ordering liquor from a bar and the author makes no never mind as to what it is they're ordering. Sometimes it's described as amber or just a bottle of something. Liquor, what we drink and what we don't, is extremely personal, opinions formed over years of both good and bad experiences. That's character development. But you might not know for sure what this new character, someone you're just meeting, likes to drink when you begin writing the book, but, by the end, you will. So you go back and add that little bit in. And if you go back and do that all over the place, with character, mood, setting and action sequences, your world begins to really take shape, your characters become three-dimensional. Your book gets better. If we go back with a global perspective, we can improve pacing, tighten the suspense...dial up the excitement.
In art...we revise, rework and refine.
In design...we revise, rework and refine.
In cinema...we revise, rework and refine.
In music...we revise, rework and refine.
In traditional literature...we revise, rework and refine.**
This isn't just a best practice, it's pretty much the way creative stuff is done.
So...when it comes to Indie books, I don't see them as special. To get our best, we need to revise, rework and refine just like everybody else. Now, how to go about it, and how 'best' is best enough - that's an individual thing.
**The most well-known example I can think of where this was not the case is Kerouac's On the Road, typed out on a single 120' roll of paper. Responding to Kerouac at the time, Capote called it typing, not writing. But he was wrong, because the story is apocryphal. Contrary to myth, Kerouac spent six years, spontaneously, revising and editing multiple drafts before publication.
eta: I believe it's impossible to know the breadth and depth of a novel, to know it’s themes and nuance before it's written, even if you outline, so we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. I really do believe that the only way to get our best work is to, through one process or another, refine it.
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Frankly, if your book is mediocre moving a few words around will not make it brilliant.
For me, editing (rewriting, cycling, reworking, developmental editing, substantive editing, restructuring, deleting words, adding words, refining - seriously, whatever you want to call it) is far more than moving a few words around. And yes, it's this process that often turns average books into brilliant ones. Well, that's what many of the 20th century masters claim, anyway.
I agree that proofreading is an extremely tedious, yet necessary pain in the ass. So, if that was what you were talking about, then never mind - I agree.
I said editing. I meant editing. Again putting words in my mouth. Stop.
If I can figure out how to block your posts, I will do so.
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I used to think that a genus, like Beethoven or Dickens, only had to put down the first golden thoughts in the head.
Then I saw photo copies of their original work.
Original copies of Beethoven's Fifth Symphony and Dickens' David Copperfield looked like cats had stepped in the ink wells and walked all over the paper.
Yep, a genus doesn't have to struggle like us mortals.
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I'm struggling with revising a 42k novel I wrote but did not finish a few years ago. I wrote it recently enough that the writing is at least halfway competent, if not more so, but the story crosses subgenre boundaries and I can't imagine anyone wanting to read it as it exists today. That's the problem with being an indie: I can write whatever I want even if it's a big mistake.
But it's 42k! I don't want to throw it away; I want to turn it into a complete published story that appeals to readers of a particular subgenre.
I just finished (for now) another major revision of an older ms., and that was hell. This is going to be a lot of work. Worst of all, it's in a new subgenre for me and I'll have to write a couple more books in this subgenre just to get anybody to pay attention. This is the part of editing I hate, when it's major surgery. But it's 42k! I only need another 23k! :dizzy :help :icon_think: :smilie_zauber:
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I'm struggling with revising a 42k novel I wrote but did not finish a few years ago. I wrote it recently enough that the writing is at least halfway competent, if not more so, but the story crosses subgenre boundaries and I can't imagine anyone wanting to read it as it exists today. That's the problem with being an indie: I can write whatever I want even if it's a big mistake.
But it's 42k! I don't want to throw it away; I want to turn it into a complete published story that appeals to readers of a particular subgenre.
I just finished (for now) another major revision of an older ms., and that was hell. This is going to be a lot of work. Worst of all, it's in a new subgenre for me and I'll have to write a couple more books in this subgenre just to get anybody to pay attention. This is the part of editing I hate, when it's major surgery. But it's 42k! I only need another 23k! :dizzy :help :icon_think: :smilie_zauber:
Ouch!!!
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but the story crosses subgenre boundaries and I can't imagine anyone wanting to read it as it exists today.
You never can tell until it's out there.
Today, you can cross the streams!
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Apparently, writing is hard.
I think it's great that some people don't need much, if any, editing. But I agree with PJ that most people do not write very good first drafts. I know there are exceptions, but most writers don't fall into that category and do well to edit. It's tough to write a good book if one has never written a bad one.
But I also think, and this is probably pointless and unsubstantiated opinion, but I think the 20th century is notable for the idea of the struggling writer. Thanks to Hemingway, and probably James Joyce and who knows how many others, it became almost necessary for writers to appear as slaves to the typewriter, suffering for their art. It was the thing to make writing look hard. It is hard, but it isn't that hard. My husband works in construction, and he has had some jobs that are undeniably hard. I can think of some things I've had to do that make writing seem like a walk in the park. In fact, writing is often an escape for me. I'm not trying to minimize the had work writers do, and I'm all in favor of doing a little whining about writing once a while. Happy to join in! But some of the rhetoric from 20th-century literary giants is kinda' overblown in my opinion.
I like the image of the painter studying the canvas, adding a dab here and there. I write a lot like that. But I'm doing this as a hobby. If I had to make a living doing this, my approach would likely be very different. I remember reading - somewhere? - about an artist who began doing commercial work, regular commissions on deadline - and found that her art improved dramatically. While I don't think the world needs a lot more hastily published books, I also don't think that the slow, painstaking, time-consuming model is necessarily the best school. You have to really know what you're doing before you can make significant improvements at that level.
And there's something to be said for finishing a project and starting another. I know in my case it taught me things I couldn't have learned from simple editing the same book indefinitely.
Anyway, back to commiserating:)
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I remember reading - somewhere? - about an artist who began doing commercial work, regular commissions on deadline - and found that her art improved dramatically.
It was March last year when I decided to stop hobbying around and turn my fiction writing into a full time job. I discovered that I could indeed write a novel a month (although six weeks is comfortable), and that I did not need to rewrite every chapter three times.
Here's the main thing I discovered: When I write a novel in four weeks, the entire plot is fresh in my mind the whole time. I can remember the whole novel, and shape the writing to match.
When I used to spend 8 months on a novel I'd lose the tone the characters spoke in, forget all kinds of earlier events (and thus fail to mention them again), forget WHY characters did certain things (or 'what the hell was I thinking?') and so on. Thus, the finished manuscript required several passes to make everything consistent.
Neither way is the right way. I just know that writing a novel quickly transformed the whole experience for me. I'm 100% focused on that novel for the entire 5-6 weeks, I remember where I've been and where I'm going, and I tend to avoid losing my way.
I'm not arguing for or against fast writing, nor for or against editing.
Do what works for you, understand that other people do it differently, and most of all remember there is no One True Way!
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How many words a day do you have to write to finish a novel a month, Simon?
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I aim for 2000-2500, which isn't much when you consider it's my full time job. (Most of my novels are around the 75k mark, but occasionally closer to 90k. Hence 4-6 weeks.)
It varies, though. For example, I've written 10k over the last 2 days. Last month, on a different novel, I wrote around 4k per day for two weeks straight. Lots of space combat scenes in that one, though, and I find they're much quicker to write than, say, dialogue in a historical novel. (in the current novel I'll often rewrite each sentence of dialog/first person thoughts 2-3 times immediately after typing them, to get the tone & structure just right.)
As I get towards the end of the novel it's easier to go flat out, because the plot is in place and I'm just filling in the blank pages.
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Here's the main thing I discovered: When I write a novel in four weeks, the entire plot is fresh in my mind the whole time. I can remember the whole novel, and shape the writing to match.
When I used to spend 8 months on a novel I'd lose the tone the characters spoke in, forget all kinds of earlier events (and thus fail to mention them again), forget WHY characters did certain things (or 'what the hell was I thinking?') and so on. Thus, the finished manuscript required several passes to make everything consistent.
This is how I wish I worked. :-) I haven't given up trying to get there but I always seem to lose interest at some point and either end up taking a ridiculously long break in the middle somewhere or I have to switch stories.
I am convinced that if I could stay engaged with one story and write quickly my books would be better than ever. The few times I've done it, that is exactly what happened. :D
I just get bored with writing and it happens a lot more often than I'd like. I have an impossible time getting myself to put in the time once that happens. I can be on top of the world with excitement for a scene when I go to bed and the next day so bored with the process of writing that making myself sit down to write it is impossible. Nothing to do with the story. Everything to do with my brain.
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Everything to do with my brain.
Red Bull. Gives you writers wings. :angel:
Also makes you write all night and sleep all morning, but that's another story.
I'm deliberately writing shorter now. 65k target instead of 85k. Helps me meet the 2 month schedule, and means I'm less likely to 'lose it' in the middle.
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*cough* A little liquor works for me. Or wine.
I start a new novel tomorrow even though my last one is still being edited. It takes two months for me to write a novel and then another month at least to have it ready for publication. That doesn't count research. If I can manage 3 or 4 novels a year, I'm doing very well indeed. Fortunately, I can make a living at that rate. More would be better but simply are not possible.
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Really enjoying this discussion. Love how we're all so different in how we approach things. And I also find that process varies book to book - but I still count myself as a new writer, working out what works for me.
As to the original topic, I always, always, have a point in the editing / revision process where it just feels like a never-ending hell-loop and it feels like I'm never, ever, going to finish and be done with the damned book. If I keep turning up, putting in the time, somehow, by some miracle, I get over it and the book is done. But it's horrible for a while. A bit like the 1/3 doldrums of the initial drafting stage! But, still, I love writing, even with the hell-loop and the doldrums.
:tap
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Here's the main thing I discovered: When I write a novel in four weeks, the entire plot is fresh in my mind the whole time. I can remember the whole novel, and shape the writing to match.
When I used to spend 8 months on a novel I'd lose the tone the characters spoke in, forget all kinds of earlier events (and thus fail to mention them again), forget WHY characters did certain things (or 'what the hell was I thinking?') and so on. Thus, the finished manuscript required several passes to make everything consistent.
This is how I wish I worked. :-) I haven't given up trying to get there but I always seem to lose interest at some point and either end up taking a ridiculously long break in the middle somewhere or I have to switch stories.
I am convinced that if I could stay engaged with one story and write quickly my books would be better than ever. The few times I've done it, that is exactly what happened. :D
I just get bored with writing and it happens a lot more often than I'd like. I have an impossible time getting myself to put in the time once that happens. I can be on top of the world with excitement for a scene when I go to bed and the next day so bored with the process of writing that making myself sit down to write it is impossible. Nothing to do with the story. Everything to do with my brain.
This could be me.
And I also sometimes start new stories in the middle of finishing one, but I can't really get into them until the first one is done, by which time I've lost all the enthusiasm for the extra stuff I started. But it's like my brain craves a creative break.
I have no idea how to fix it, or even if it needs fixing.
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When I used to write short stories, I had to finish them in one sitting or else they'd languish forever. (I have about 100 unfinished shorts in a dusty old directory.)
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I remember reading - somewhere? - about an artist who began doing commercial work, regular commissions on deadline - and found that her art improved dramatically.
Here's the main thing I discovered: When I write a novel in four weeks, the entire plot is fresh in my mind the whole time. I can remember the whole novel, and shape the writing to match.
When I used to spend 8 months on a novel I'd lose the tone the characters spoke in, forget all kinds of earlier events (and thus fail to mention them again), forget WHY characters did certain things (or 'what the hell was I thinking?') and so on. Thus, the finished manuscript required several passes to make everything consistent.
I used to be able to keep everything in my head, although I did note a few things at the bottom of the doc. Now my brain is aging along with everything else. E.G. yesterday, I had about half an hour to write and got down a little over 400 words. That was at 3:45. At 8pm, I wrote another 1K. When I was transferring my work to Word, I noticed that in the first session, I sent someone to wake up two people. By 8pm that night, I sent somebody else to wake them up as if I hadn't already done that.
Unfortunately, that is becoming more frequent. Not constant, thank goodness, but more often than I'd like. Editing as I go is a necessity and finding mistakes like that is frustrating.
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I've taken to writing myself short reminders within the text. What each character did last, and what they're meant to do next.
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I've taken to writing myself short reminders within the text. What each character did last, and what they're meant to do next.
Noting what they did last might work, but not what they were meant to do next. I never know what they're going to do next. I had sort of planned the last big scene until last night when something entirely different and sooner than I had thought, appeared on my screen. The joys and dangers of being a pantser. :icon_think: :doh:
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I'm a pantser too, but I try to herd the characters whenever I can ;-)
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I'm a pantser too, but I try to herd the characters whenever I can ;-)
Herding characters in combat suits and wielding big guns is a bit dangerous. grint
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I'm a pantser too, but I try to herd the characters whenever I can ;-)
Those little imps do have a mind of their own. Worse than a two year old. :roll:
I'm a pantser too, but I try to herd the characters whenever I can ;-)
Herding characters in combat suits and wielding big guns is a bit dangerous. grint
I use a broom, a rolling pin and a wooden spoon.
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I remember reading - somewhere? - about an artist who began doing commercial work, regular commissions on deadline - and found that her art improved dramatically.
It was March last year when I decided to stop hobbying around and turn my fiction writing into a full time job. I discovered that I could indeed write a novel a month (although six weeks is comfortable), and that I did not need to rewrite every chapter three times.
Here's the main thing I discovered: When I write a novel in four weeks, the entire plot is fresh in my mind the whole time. I can remember the whole novel, and shape the writing to match.
I just know that writing a novel quickly transformed the whole experience for me. I'm 100% focused on that novel for the entire 5-6 weeks, I remember where I've been and where I'm going, and I tend to avoid losing my way.
Yes - although I've been writing stories since I was 6 (rather a long time ago) and I even managed to finish a few things, I didn't find myself writing seriously until I did NaNoWriMo for the first time in November 2006. I think this taught me both to make things up as I went along and to keep the whole thing in my head. The longer it takes me to finish something, the more difficult it gets.
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How many words a day do you have to write to finish a novel a month, Simon?
Although I said 2000-2500 per day, I wrote 10,500 today and I reckon they're the best scenes in the book so far.
That's 42500 for November (13 days), or 3270 per day average.
This is a long novel, though. I breezed past my target of 75k and am now looking at 100,000.
I always start out slower, at least for the first couple of weeks, but towards the end it's like a gigantic rock rolling downhill. Can't stop if I want to.
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Impressive!
I spent the last couple of days writing a timeline of the Scottish War of Independence from 1309 to 1320 (it was a VERY long war) including a lot of detail of events and still figuring out exactly where to start the new novel. I MUST start actually writing. *sigh* I have a hard time editing a novel and writing a new one at the same time.
On editing, I'm in the latter part of this stage. I used the universal search to find every time I used the word 'heard' and reworded when I said Thomas 'heard' something to just show what he heard instead. Heard is fine in dialogue usually, so those I didn't reword.
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Oh yes, that's something I do often. (heard, and saw/spotted/noticed as well.)
Today I ordered an out of print hardback on everyday life in victorian london. Looking forward to that one.
PS just as well you're not writing about the Reconquista, or 800 year war, in Spain.
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How many words a day do you have to write to finish a novel a month, Simon?
Although I said 2000-2500 per day, I wrote 10,500 today and I reckon they're the best scenes in the book so far.
That's 42500 for November (13 days), or 3270 per day average.
This is a long novel, though. I breezed past my target of 75k and am now looking at 100,000.
I always start out slower, at least for the first couple of weeks, but towards the end it's like a gigantic rock rolling downhill. Can't stop if I want to.
Wow that is impressive.
How are your hands not falling off?
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Oh yes, that's something I do often. (heard, and saw/spotted/noticed as well.)
Today I ordered an out of print hardback on everyday life in victorian london. Looking forward to that one.
PS just as well you're not writing about the Reconquista, or 800 year war, in Spain.
Funnily enough I actually wrote about one battle in that war, since James Douglas died in it. But only one, thank goodness. A war that lasted 32 years is quite long enough for me.
PS I have a list of words I check for but 'heard' is the one I go "I used it HOW many times?!" :doh:
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How are your hands not falling off?
No idea!
But then it's pretty light work compared to, say, eight hours hammering up old floor tiles.
Also, 10k is a lot, but if you write for 14 hours straight it's not too much per hour.
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I promised myself last night when I finished my writing session on book 2 that I would plug in ten pages of notes and corrections from my editor today.
Okay, I've walked the dog, put away the laundry, emptied the dishwasher, watered the orchids and inspected them thoroughly for new growth and even yelled at the grandson for not mowing the entire lawn plus I came here to whine. Can anybody think of something else I can do to procrastinate? No? Okay. Ten pages starting now.
:writethink:
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Getting into a political debate on twitter usually works for me.
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Getting into a political debate on twitter usually works for me.
I'll have to remember that for tomorrow.
I did 9.5 pages. It was a mess. A lot of the edits were changing the way I write. Most likely only a handful of people will read the darned book anyway so I'll stick with my style.
At the same time, a lot of the comments were good. I only stopped because the last comment concerned suggestions for enhancing the atmosphere, which I know I need to do. I just have to decide how I want to handle it.
:HB
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However, as much as I hate editing, it is also possible for me to become obsessed with it. I have re-written the very last scene, a brief hand-to-hand fight, in this novel about fifteen times trying to get it perfect. And I am now at the 'I will go over this novel looking for a word to change somewhere' point. At which point, I find it a good idea to make myself back slowly away from the keyboard.
ETA: In this case, it may take a gun to my forehead for me to stop picking at it.
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Is this a cry for help? Do we need to bring out the virtual guns?
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I forced myself to send it to my line editor. That should make me leave it alone. Otherwise, I may need you guys to tie my hands down.
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I forced myself to send it to my line editor. That should make me leave it alone. Otherwise, I may need you guys to tie my hands down.
We'll take away your plaid if you don't stop. Humph.
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Noooo... Not my plaid.
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I quite enjoy editing my own work; in fact, I never really know when to stop. Editing someone else's work though, is totally tedious. I edit for a friend and I have to do a chapter a day otherwise I'd end up falling asleep. :dog1:
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Yes I could go on forever as well. I'm very motivated by the prospect of finishing, although also somewhat terrified by it at the same time.
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For me, editing (rewriting, cycling, reworking, developmental editing, substantive editing, restructuring, deleting words, adding words, refining - seriously, whatever you want to call it) is far more than moving a few words around. And yes, it's this process that often turns average books into brilliant ones. Well, that's what many of the 20th century masters claim, anyway.
I agree that proofreading is an extremely tedious, yet necessary pain in the ass. So, if that was what you were talking about, then never mind - I agree.
I both love AND hate editing. It's not fun. In fact for me the only parts about writing that are fun is the beginning, during the outlining stage when I'm creating the story in my mind, and the part where I type "the end" and the book is finished. Everything in between is work. But I agree that editing is more important than a lot of people realize and it's not just to fix grammer or remove typos.
The problem is that most self-published writers who are trying to get books out as fast as possible can't always afford to spend too much time on the editing process, which is a shame. The editing phase truly is the part where the mediocre becomes good and the good becomes great. That doesn't make it any less of a chore though!
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Yes I could go on forever as well. I'm very motivated by the prospect of finishing, although also somewhat terrified by it at the same time.
I usually love my own stories. I get an idea and cannot wait to get it down on paper. Then, I start to go over it again, and again and the more I do that, the more in love with it I become. So, I never want to part with it. Once it is finally finished and I've uploaded it, I feel bereft and lost, because usually the next idea hasn't formed enough to start. :dog1:
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I am so the opposite. Once I have written it, I want to be done with it and move on. I am sooo tired of faffing about with Noble Traitor, I can't even tell you. Yet until it is published, I can't leave it alone. It's like a kid with a scab they keep picking at. I should have the second proofread back in a few days, so I can get it to a few ARC readers. Then it's just a matter of publishing it and I don't want to do that for another two weeks, so by that time, I'll be a twitching mess because after the last proofread I won't allow myself to touch it for fear of putting in a new typo.
Working on the next novel is helping a little but there is still the urge to go see if there isn't some verb I could make stronger. :doh:
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I am so the opposite. Once I have written it, I want to be done with it and move on. I am sooo tired of faffing about with Noble Traitor, I can't even tell you. Yet until it is published, I can't leave it alone. It's like a kid with a scab they keep picking at. I should have the second proofread back in a few days, so I can get it to a few ARC readers. Then it's just a matter of publishing it and I don't want to do that for another two weeks, so by that time, I'll be a twitching mess because after the last proofread I won't allow myself to touch it for fear of putting in a new typo.
Working on the next novel is helping a little but there is still the urge to go see if there isn't some verb I could make stronger. :doh:
I get this. I've just finished the complete first draft - some bits have been gone over, some bits just written - and tomorrow I start editing. By the time I get to the end I often can't tell if it's good or not, or even if I've got a complete story and I just want it off my desk. Luckily, I send it to my lovely beta reader who will absolutely tell me if it's readable or not. That also gives me a little bit of space to "forget" about it before it comes back for the final polish.
Oh, and in this particular draft everyone is grim faced at some point, so I'm going to be elbow-deep in a thesaurus at some point trying to figure out variants for that and restructuring sentences like a woman possessed to avoid repeating myself too much.
Oh, the joys!
:smilie_zauber:
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Hell's teeth, but I loathe and detest editing. Once I've finished the story, I want done with it, and off to pastures new.
Yes, it's a chore, yes, it's got to be done, and yes, I do it, but I can't help thinking that after 18 novels, I should be able to get it right first time. Why can't I do that, eh? Why, why, why?
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I will say I haven't really edited much, and I doubt that most of you would consider what I've done an edit. But I think I kinda like editing. I hop books a lot. Like too much but this month I settled on one that is almost done. When I get to the almost done point I usually superficially read through to find out where I need to finish, fill holes, or if there is a problem fix it.
Two days this month I didn't feel like writing. At all... Full stop... do not pass go... don't collect two hundred dollars
So I read. Like really read the parts I had written a few months some even over a year ago, and I liked it. Like the words were good. The feelings were there. Instead of rushing through looking for holes I read and did a preliminary edit. Over about 63 pages in two days overall I added about 300 words to my manuscript, but it was really a bit more since I found I took out quite a few redundant words.
How can editing be fun?
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How can editing be fun?
Got me. Different strokes for different folks. I wouldn't say editing is fun exactly, but for me getting the first draft done is miserable. When procrastination includes housework....
So editing (NOT proofreading) is fun relatively. Ah ha, improved that sentence, didn't I! Wow, that fixed that. Tweak, tweak.
Maybe it also has to do with knowing I'm at the beginning of a big project as opposed to knowing I'm closing in on the finish. Too bad we can't all be blessed with liking it all.
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I couldn't proofread to save my life. I add more typos than I take away and grammar... Nough said.
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Now that novel is completely done and I am itching to get it out there. *pulls hand away from the publish button*
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I'm in comma hell right now. I had a nice 4 star review recently but they said "too many commas". So now I'm triple/quadruple guessing every comma, which I normally second guess and internally debating the comma rules I set for myself, as I use read aloud to finish up my WIP.
:help
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Now that novel is completely done and I am itching to get it out there. *pulls hand away from the publish button*
Did you do it yet?
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I'm in comma hell right now. I had a nice 4 star review recently but they said "too many commas". So now I'm triple/quadruple guessing every comma, which I normally second guess and internally debating the comma rules I set for myself, as I use read aloud to finish up my WIP.
:help
You can set comma rules.
I think I want to go back under my rock and hide now please.
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I'm in comma hell right now. I had a nice 4 star review recently but they said "too many commas". So now I'm triple/quadruple guessing every comma, which I normally second guess and internally debating the comma rules I set for myself, as I use read aloud to finish up my WIP.
:help
You can set comma rules.
I think I want to go back under my rock and hide now please.
Not in Word, in case that is what you thought I meant, I just have my own set I try to adhere to. In non dialogue I comma everything that could be in parenthesis or time frames at the start of a sentence. In dialogue, listening it to it in the read aloud makes it easy to decide where the commas are.
The perils of the comma:
https://quoteinvestigator.com/2015/10/25/comma/
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I don't hate the process of editing (I do pretty light ones; tease out the threads that need more clarity with a few touches, fix up grammar and unclear sentences, fix dangling plot threads, etc) but I HATE transferring the changes from my hard copy edits to the computer. HATE IT.
And yes, I always do hard copy edits because I catch more that way, and can leave sticky notes for stuff I don't wanna fix by handwriting.
BUT WE HATES IT PRECIOUS.
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I reread the print version when I get it from my formatter, and I can't believe how many more errors I find. It never ends.