Writer Sanctum
Writer's Haven => Quill and Feather Pub [Public] => Topic started by: Lerria321 on December 03, 2021, 12:38:37 PM
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I've read some discussions about making a MC an underdog, as it gives the character a longer path to grow and change and also helps readers to connect with MC better. Yet I see many succsessful series where MC is quite powerful from the beginning.
Does it mean that readers have no problems connecting with powerful characters? What do you think? And which type of MC do you prefer as readers and authors and why?
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I've read some discussions about making a MC an underdog, as it gives the character a longer path to grow and change and also helps readers to connect with MC better. Yet I see many succsessful series where MC is quite powerful from the beginning.
Does it mean that readers have no problems connecting with powerful characters? What do you think? And which type of MC do you prefer as readers and authors and why?
My current MC (Merlin) is so totally overpowered, but that's not the point. The point for me is the internal struggle with using major power, especially when it has consequences. That's why I write first person, to get the internalizing as the main story.
As far as power goes though, there has to be an origin story, and a development timeline to get to being super powerful. Otherwise all you have is a mary-sue.
I don't mind an underdog. But if all they do is pull rabbits out of arses to win, that gets old very quickly.
The success of the Avengers suggests people accept superheroes readily. But all of them have their issues and demons. And are not all powerful.
One thing I don't like is the powerful MC in the beginning, who then keeps coming across even more powerful baddies, reducing him down to underdog all the time and resulting in pulling rabbits out of arses to survive. I find that totally stupid.
The whole powerful good must fight a more powerful bad thing bores me. Especially since the power is effectively nullified, and arse pulling is resorted to for winning.
I also despise the eternal recurring villain. Super good powerful faces off against super bad powerful, and they fight. Good wins, but bad pulls an arse rabbit and escapes. Then they do it all again. And again. And again. Then it gets rebooted. It's boring!
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Does it mean that readers have no problems connecting with powerful characters?
Readers can identify with an MC in all sorts of ways, even if it's something as simple as having the MC stub his toe on the bathroom door in the first chapter. It's something we've all done at some point, and we all know it hurts, and that's what makes it relatable. Tony Stark is a powerful man even aside from his Iron Man persona, but he still has flaws and challenges that make him relatable.
I definitely think there's a tendency, though, for powerful characters to be Mary Sue types.
And which type of MC do you prefer as readers and authors and why?
I prefer an MC that earns his victories the hard way. I despise MCs that seem to have everything handed to them on a silver platter. Life is hard for most of us, and the stories that appeal to me are those that say yeah, life is hard, but the challenges can be overcome with enough grit and determination.
Imagine a video game where you can win without ever having to level up or earn items or coins. You've got everything you need to defeat the final boss right from the beginning. Sounds like a boring game, right? Well, I feel the same way about MCs in books.
I can't speak for other readers or authors, of course, and I have no idea what the masses think about this stuff.
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I found this really interesting when I first came across it:
https://writingexcuses.com/2014/03/30/writing-excuses-9-13-three-prong-character-development/
which in is summarised here:
https://www.stormwritingschool.com/character-mixing-board/
(One is text, one is audio).
But basically, the idea is that if a character has high levels of: competence, proactivity or relatability (or combos of any two) then they ought to be at least engaging.
If they're maxed out on all three they're probably going to be boring as they'll never face any challenges.
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If they're maxed out on all three they're probably going to be boring as they'll never face any challenges.
That's where I decided to go.
In first person, the challenges are not so much the usual bad meets good on the field of battle thing. It's all about the character journey of the overpowered MC.
It's why I wrote a series about a benevolent AI who fights a war where the main enemy is not a serious threat, but thinks they're the big bad and who is for everyone else. It was all about character development of the AI, and how AIs are viewed by everyone else. Hence the series name being A.I. Destiny.
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If they're maxed out on all three they're probably going to be boring as they'll never face any challenges.
That's where I decided to go.
In first person, the challenges are not so much the usual bad meets good on the field of battle thing. It's all about the character journey of the overpowered MC.
It's why I wrote a series about a benevolent AI who fights a war where the main enemy is not a serious threat, but thinks they're the big bad and who is for everyone else. It was all about character development of the AI, and how AIs are viewed by everyone else. Hence the series name being A.I. Destiny.
Cool! Sounds like that inner exploration could be the 'low' point for the AI character's competence?
(Like, it's starting out at a certain point of development and growing, it's not starting the story out exactly as it needs to be to fulfill it's destiny?)
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If they're maxed out on all three they're probably going to be boring as they'll never face any challenges.
That's where I decided to go.
In first person, the challenges are not so much the usual bad meets good on the field of battle thing. It's all about the character journey of the overpowered MC.
It's why I wrote a series about a benevolent AI who fights a war where the main enemy is not a serious threat, but thinks they're the big bad and who is for everyone else. It was all about character development of the AI, and how AIs are viewed by everyone else. Hence the series name being A.I. Destiny.
Cool! Sounds like that inner exploration could be the 'low' point for the AI character's competence?
(Like, it's starting out at a certain point of development and growing, it's not starting the story out exactly as it needs to be to fulfill it's destiny?)
Actually, it was sidekick becomes the hero.
1 star admiral, just promoted, at the start of this series, suddenly becomes 4 stars because only the incompetent officers remained from the series 1 story, then goes on to be a Queen. And until mid book 6, very few know she's an AI.
The whole point was, an AI sidekick, used to following the orders of a hero, suddenly has to take charge and prevent the remains of the human race from going into civil war, while at the same time finding a galaxy under the influence of a war-like species using a drug to dominate all the species there.
So it's a journey from follower to being THE leader.
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Some people like the enneagram. It gives your characters ideals, fears, desires and vices. If you stick with that your characters will be relatable. Veer too far from it and your writers find it unbelievable. That's the theory anyway, but it might be a good reference. I'm not good at links, but you can also google using the enneagram in fiction writing. Edit - oh the link worked.
https://www.bing.com/images/search?view=detailV2&ccid=QLnZdKrn&id=46083CEAD450433CDC9DA3BAA2394015FDD37794&thid=OIP.QLnZdKrnJ4oIjcC33d4jigHaEL&mediaurl=https%3a%2f%2fi.pinimg.com%2f736x%2fd7%2f3f%2f8a%2fd73f8afc9fa7bd816ca73dcc7e8f06b6.jpg&cdnurl=https%3a%2f%2fth.bing.com%2fth%2fid%2fR.40b9d974aae7278a088dc0b7ddde238a%3frik%3dlHfT%252fRVAOaK6ow%26pid%3dImgRaw%26r%3d0%26sres%3d1%26sresct%3d1%26srh%3d735%26srw%3d1300&exph=415&expw=734&q=using+the+eneeagram+in+writing&simid=607989669333261155&FORM=IRPRST&ck=28368CAE249F1D74945007F36ED9594A&selectedIndex=1&ajaxhist=0&ajaxserp=0
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Whatever the power is, it must be earned - note that developing the power counts, i.e. Spiderman. The key to many good stories is found within this personal struggle to overcome - that's the character arc.
But it depends on the kind of story you want to write. For example, while we get hints and retellings of how they came to be who they are (earning via flashback), James Bond, Dirk Pitt and Jack Reacher all begin their respective stories completely leveled up. The reader is in on the 'joke' as they square off against bad guys who have no clue how badass (physically, intellectually or both) these heroes are - until the final boss-battle.
These characters work well in a series of standalone stories, like the NUMA files or Sherlock Holmes. But if the story is going to be a serial, that is, a single story told over multiple books, then the character needs to earn it every step of the way. Their failings humanize them, which makes them more engaging. This is why fans love Luke but generally despise Rey. The first thing Luke does is lose R2 which gets his Aunt and Uncle killed - total fail. The first thing Rey does is fly/fight/repair/engineer the Millennium Falcon better than Han Solo, a ship she's never been on before - an effortless consequence-free win.
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I find the first part of the first Stars Wars unwatchable. Guy can't act his way out of a paper bag. (Hamill does learn later, but he can't carry a scene on his own, talking.) Didn't know I was supposed to despise Rey. I thought that movie was a lot of hooey compared to the character situations and development in the first three produced, but I didn't dislike her, probably because she's not sure of herself and she appears more or less friendless at first, and thus an underdog. Endlessly debatable, I suppose, but she's on the usual hero's quest for a lost or killed parent (either to find the parent or avenge the parent). And the sudden discovery of powers never known before is pretty typical.
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Endlessly debatable, I suppose, but she's on the usual hero's quest for a lost or killed parent (either to find the parent or avenge the parent). And the sudden discovery of powers never known before is pretty typical.
Powers are one thing. Almost effortlessly using them like a master just makes a mary-sue.
Luke was repeatedly hit by training bolts before he used the force to deflect his first ones. Rey picked up a lightsaber and fought like a master in her first fight.
The fact Luke was already a good pilot was lost from the movie, but was in the book, and even in the movie, he talks about hitting a small target in a fighter when they talk about the port they need to hit. So there was history there for him to be a good pilot.
Rey has never flown a ship before in her life, and then suddenly she's able to fly the Falcon, one of the most difficult ships to fly? Then she repairs it better than Han does, with no experience of starship repair?
People don't so much hate Rey, but everything she did was built on the 3rtd movie revelation of who she was related to.
Whereas Luke did all the training across 2 movies, and made all the mistakes to earn the 4rd movie. Rey did nothing to justify what she did in the first movie, let alone the 3rd.
Rey is the poster-girl for Mary-Sue. Luke was the poster-boy for the heroes journey.
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I've read some discussions about making a MC an underdog, as it gives the character a longer path to grow and change and also helps readers to connect with MC better. Yet I see many succsessful series where MC is quite powerful from the beginning.
Does it mean that readers have no problems connecting with powerful characters? What do you think? And which type of MC do you prefer as readers and authors and why?
I prefer a MC with some abilities...but that may not be helping them much at first. Either they don't know they have them or don't know how to use them. Or they've used them in a way that hurt someone and now have to live with the consequences.
While not epic fantasy, one of my favorite examples is The Quiet Man. A powerful man (yes, physical power) but a powerful boxer, who accidentally kills a man in the ring then returns to Ireland. After that, he refuses to fight again and most people don't know why. They think he's a coward until he finally has to face that fear.
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My parents have a collection of John Wayne movies. Always did like that one. But I like a certain type of antagonistic romance where strong personalities clash and it definitely fit that bill. :D
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i think both could work you just need to give them flaws to over come. strength and too much confidence/winning can be a huge flaw in itself.
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While not epic fantasy, one of my favorite examples is The Quiet Man. A powerful man (yes, physical power) but a powerful boxer, who accidentally kills a man in the ring then returns to Ireland. After that, he refuses to fight again and most people don't know why. They think he's a coward until he finally has to face that fear.
Heh. I developed a thing for Maureen O'Hara and redheads in general after watching this as an impressionable teen grint