Writer Sanctum
Reader's Library => TV/Movie Talk [Public] => Topic started by: Jeff Tanyard on March 28, 2022, 04:52:40 PM
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Just add a little on-stage violence and some f-bombs. :icon_rofl:
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Is that Hollyweird circle jerk still running?
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I stopped watching the year Titanic won Best Picture. I thought yeah, okay, f*ck off. I was deep into it before that.
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We actually still have VHS tapes of old Oscar shows that we should throw out. These days we catch up via Twitter and news shows later instead of being bored for five hours. TCM does a much better In Memoriam.
It's interesting that Will Smith's words were caught on the microphones. In the past, if a person not at the podium spoke, one heard nothing. So either they've changed the miking (micing for you young ones) or Will really was loud. That was the Oscar feed, not somebody's cell phone.
As to the violence, I honor him for his defense of his wife. Comedians often are cruel and insulting, but "smile when you say that" doesn't erase the fact that it's a public insult. I admit my attitude probably is not sufficiently evolved. I also admire Buzz Aldrin for socking that guy who called him a coward and a liar to his face claiming the moon mission was a fake.
They don't let me out much.
Seriously, this atavistic feeling that Will did the right thing is why women read stories about medieval Scottish warriors.
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The Oscars are just another tiresome overlong commercial, tho' they can boost an actor or director's salary by 50-100% which suggests indies ought to give up AMS and stage televised slapdowns to get our books attention.
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Seriously, this atavistic feeling that Will did the right thing is why women read stories about medieval Scottish warriors.
atavistic
adjective
relating to or characterized by reversion to something ancient or ancestral. "atavistic fears and instincts"
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Learn something new eveyday!
R.C.
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This incident almost makes me wish I had tuned in. My hat is off to the 23 people viewing the show from home.
As for Will Smith, f*ck that guy. He's a cuckolded laughing stock who initiated violence against a peaceful party. I take an extremely hardline stance on that.
Hell, he appeared to enjoy the joke until he saw Jada's face. lol
Imagine if Gervais had told it. It wouldn't have been the last one. Gervais would've leaned into it.
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This incident almost makes me wish I had tuned in.
Same here. I wasn't watching; I just saw the slap making the rounds on the internet.
I mean, if this sort of thing becomes routine, then I'll start watching again. Maybe they can set up an octagon on the stage and have Bruce Buffer announce the nominees. :icon_rofl:
It's interesting that Will Smith's words were caught on the microphones. In the past, if a person not at the podium spoke, one heard nothing. So either they've changed the miking (micing for you young ones) or Will really was loud. That was the Oscar feed, not somebody's cell phone.
There was a lot of "was that real or scripted" going around after the fact. I suspect the microphone issue you mention played into that.
...which suggests indies ought to give up AMS and stage televised slapdowns to get our books attention.
We should totally make this happen. :ices_angel_g:
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If MTV is still around, maybe they can bring back Celebrity Deathmatch, except for real instead of claymation. Two celebrities enter the ring, maybe one walks out.
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If MTV is still around, maybe they can bring back Celebrity Deathmatch, except for real instead of claymation. Two celebrities enter the ring, maybe one walks out.
Remember the Robert Conrad bad form reaction to a relay race, which then led to a grudge match race with Gabe Kaplan (who won) and how Conrad capitalized on it later with his Energizer Bunny commercial?
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This incident almost makes me wish I had tuned in.
Same here. I wasn't watching; I just saw the slap making the rounds on the internet.
I mean, if this sort of thing becomes routine, then I'll start watching again. Maybe they can set up an octagon on the stage and have Bruce Buffer announce the nominees. :icon_rofl:
Perhaps they could have two announcers... Buffer for the beginning and the guy from Mortal Kombat for the end (i.e. "FINISH HIM!" and "FATALITY!").
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This incident almost makes me wish I had tuned in. My hat is off to the 23 people viewing the show from home.
I watch every year, and enjoy the ritual of it. I don't take it seriously. Their taste rarely reflects mine. You didn't miss much in the moment. It was handled really weird. The screen froze on Rock when the insanity started which is a live viewing "censor" failsafe I've never seen before. It looked like a reception issue and it only became clear from the super-uncomfortable context that something more had gone on. We had to go to the internet to figure it out.
As for Will Smith, f*ck that guy.
Yup.
It may have been shock, but Chris Rock carried on with amazing decorum in that moment.
True stripes have been revealed on both sides and Will Smith's "protecting women" excuse is nuts. I can't believe people in the room applauded this swill. What if Wanda Sykes had made the same joke? He would have left in cuffs.
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Perhaps they could have two announcers... Buffer for the beginning and the guy from Mortal Kombat for the end (i.e. "FINISH HIM!" and "FATALITY!").
I'll add that, after the slap, Chris Rock's line about "greatest television moment" was kind of lame. Sure, he was sort of in shock, but still, he's a professional comedian. In my opinion, a far better line would have been for him to look right into the camera and say, "Now that's what I call a close encounter." :icon_mrgreen:
For those who don't get the reference:
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Personally, I thought Will was quite restrained.
The joke was in extremely bad taste, and he deserved the reaction he got.
Will could have simply punched him so hard he fell down, but he didn't, he went with the soft slap.
Use to be comedy was about sending up situations. Then it became about making fun of people. That's when I stopped watching comedy in Australia. When it became abuse.
That joke was pure abuse of a person, and while I don't condone violence, had it been anywhere else, the comedian would now have a black eye or broken jaw.
The fact he didn't know he'd stepped over the line is the amazing part for me. He's so used to getting away with making fun of people at their expense that he couldn't understand what happened to him.
Reality check for comedians. You can't do that sort of thing without consequences.
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Reality check for comedians. You can't do that sort of thing without consequences.
In America, for many years, you could. Stand-up comedians have been roasting people like that for decades. It's considered part of the experience; if you go to a comedy act, you're fair game, especially if you sit on the front row. The Oscars aren't quite the same as a stand-up comedy act, but the "fair game" principle is similar, and the host often roasts some of the actors in attendance.
The actors know it's not personal, so they take it in stride and laugh at themselves. Or they did until now, which is why this incident has caused such a kerfuffle.
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In America, for many years, you could. Stand-up comedians have been roasting people like that for decades. It's considered part of the experience; if you go to a comedy act, you're fair game, especially if you sit on the front row. The Oscars aren't quite the same as a stand-up comedy act, but the "fair game" principle is similar, and the host often roasts some of the actors in attendance.
So you go to the Oscars because you're short listed to win one. Or the person you're with is.
Then you get roasted by a comedian because you being there is fair game?
That just isn't right.
The actors know it's not personal, so they take it in stride and laugh at themselves.
No-one should have to put up with that sort of crap, at that sort of event.
And this wasn't a laugh at yourself thing.
It was a deliberate use of an unfortunate medical condition to elicit a laugh, and it backfired big time.
It's hard enough dealing with major health issues without some arsehole making fun of you for going through it.
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I thought Will Smith did go too far by actually slapping Chris Rock. Having said that, the joke should not have been made. Imagine if Jada Smith had been in a wheel chair instead of bald, would it still have been acceptable to make fun of her condition?
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So you go to the Oscars because you're short listed to win one. Or the person you're with is.
Then you get roasted by a comedian because you being there is fair game?
Yep. It's a very gentle roasting compared to the days of Don Rickles, but yeah, if you're a famous actor at the Oscars or some other award show, then you might catch a little heat.
Hell, Ricky Gervais practically called Leo a pedophile at the Golden Globes, (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_NTDEN4VZik) but Leo just laughed and shrugged it off.
That just isn't right.
Right or wrong, it's how it's always been done, at least in my lifetime.
It was a deliberate use of an unfortunate medical condition to elicit a laugh, and it backfired big time.
It's hard enough dealing with major health issues without some arsehole making fun of you for going through it.
From what I can tell by googling, Chris apparently didn't know Jada had alopecia. He apparently thought she shaved her head as a fashion statement or something. :shrug
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The only way comedians know they've crossed the line is by audience reaction. If they can't "read the room" correctly, they often follow down a path that makes them come across as more and more obnoxious as the evening wears on. Doing so can be devastating to their careers. Gervais may have given a good defense of his routine ("Hey, they're all rich and privileged so who cares?"); bottom line he was obnoxious.
Regardless, roasting Hollywood's top stars on their big day actually is not what the Oscars are supposed to be about. The humor is supposed to relieve the tension, not create it.
Chris Rock has always attacked women in his comedy routines. If you go back to his earliest specials, you see sexist crap about women only wanting money and that sort of thing. (Deleted rant about Black men and baby mamas and welfare checks.)
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It may have been shock, but Chris Rock carried on with amazing decorum in that moment.
Agreed. Plus, he absorbed that slap like a champ. An open-handed slap by a big guy is no joke.
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I'll add that, after the slap, Chris Rock's line about "greatest television moment" was kind of lame. Sure, he was sort of in shock, but still, he's a professional comedian. In my opinion, a far better line would have been for him to look right into the camera and say, "Now that's what I call a close encounter." :icon_mrgreen:
I cut him a lot of slack. I agree the comeback was lame, but he was clearly stunned (probably with producers screaming in his ear).
He should've said, "That hit was bigger than anything you've ever tried to star Jaden in."
Hell, if it were Gervais, it probably would've gone down like this...
Smith: "Keep my wife's name out of your f*cking mouth!"
Gervais: "Fine. And why don't you keep other men's dicks out of your wife's mouth."
Gervais looking directly at camera: "This is my last time. I don't care."
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Reality check for comedians. You can't do that sort of thing without consequences.
It's not a reality check for comedians. It just showed people that Smith is an emotionally fragile man desperate to white knight for a woman who cuckolded him.
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In America, for many years, you could. Stand-up comedians have been roasting people like that for decades. It's considered part of the experience; if you go to a comedy act, you're fair game, especially if you sit on the front row. The Oscars aren't quite the same as a stand-up comedy act, but the "fair game" principle is similar, and the host often roasts some of the actors in attendance.
The actors know it's not personal, so they take it in stride and laugh at themselves. Or they did until now, which is why this incident has caused such a kerfuffle.
Moreover, it's not like Smith hasn't ever done something similar.
The subreddit "agedlikemilk" shows him roasting bald guys on Arsenio Hall back in the day.
Again, he appeared to enjoy the joke. It was only after he saw Jada's "you're gonna hear about this when we get home" face that he did a 180.
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Just watching A Fish Called Wanda. Archie apologizing to Otto.
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It was only after he saw Jada's "you're gonna hear about this when we get home" face that he did a 180.
Call me old fashioned, but that is supposed to be the way it works.
You see your lady has been insulted or hurt, so you defend her.
Your reaction is not relevant. Only hers.
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I feel old-fashioned, too. The vast majority of the comments I've seen online have condemned Smith's behavior.
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I feel old-fashioned, too. The vast majority of the comments I've seen online have condemned Smith's behavior.
He could have handled it better.
I'd have simply walked out. Maybe not simply. Made a show of walking out.
But I'm not Will Smith.
Having someone nominated walk out is a statement. Them not being there for an actual award after walking out would say a lot.
It also comes down to change in Hollywood. There's a lot of things about Hollywood that in spite of some change, still needs more change, and attitudes to women is still one of them. You can only be the means of change when you stand up and do something against what is wrong. Will did that imo. Will it make a difference, maybe not. But the next time it happens, and the time after that, he's set a precedence for not accepting it now.
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Here's a little thought experiment:
If Jason Momoa or Chris Hemsworth had been the host rather than the short and skinny Chris Rock, would Will Smith still have done what he did?
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Here's a little thought experiment:
If Jason Momoa or Chris Hemsworth had been the host rather than the short and skinny Chris Rock, would Will Smith still have done what he did?
Yeah, I think he would.
But neither of them would have been telling stupid jokes like that.
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It was only after he saw Jada's "you're gonna hear about this when we get home" face that he did a 180.
Call me old fashioned, but that is supposed to be the way it works.
You see your lady has been insulted or hurt, so you defend her.
Your reaction is not relevant. Only hers.
It's not about being old-fashioned. It's about whether you advocate the initiation of violence against someone who has not been violent toward you.
To me, that's thuggery. It should be condemned regardless of the words that prompted the violence.
Like John Galt said in Atlas Shrugged, "So long as men desire to live together, no man may initiate—do you hear me? no man may start—the use of physical force against others."
Maybe I'm the old-fashioned one. After all, I'm the one who believes violence is only warranted in self-defense. People these days seem alarmingly able to rationalize violence when someone says something they don't like.
Sad.
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Just watching A Fish Called Wanda. Archie apologizing to Otto.
Otto: "You're the vulgarian, you f*ck!" lol
Such a great movie.
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It's about whether you advocate the initiation of violence against someone who has not been violent toward you.
The violence had already been directed towards his wife.
Verbal abuse IS a form of violence.
You can argue the response was out of proportion to the offense. But not who started it.
Comedians need to understand that if you aim verbal violence at people, it might come back at you as physical violence. And while they might not think it is, it's the person on the receiving end who makes the judgement.
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It's about whether you advocate the initiation of violence against someone who has not been violent toward you.
The violence had already been directed towards his wife.
Verbal abuse IS a form of violence.
No. Words are not violence. Violence is the use of physical force.
The more you expand the definition, the less value the word possesses.
Similar to how some people now say "silence is violence."
(https://upriseri.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/2020-06-12-Woonsocket-BLM-04-1400x787.jpeg)
It's ridiculous. Violence is the use of physical force. Period. Saying otherwise doesn't make it so.
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As I learned it in J-school law class, the criminal definition of "assault" is words, not touching. "Battery" is the touching part. So when that goofball called Buzz Aldrin a liar to his face about the moon flight, the goofball was committing assault. Aldrin then committed battery.
So, if Will Smith had stayed in his seat and countered the insult against his wife with the words he yelled, he would have been committing assault. Instead, he committed battery first and then assault.
It's kind of hard to wrap one's mind around the idea that yelling at someone can be considered a criminal offense, but there it is.
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As I learned it in J-school law class, the criminal definition of "assault" is words, not touching. "Battery" is the touching part. So when that goofball called Buzz Aldrin a liar to his face about the moon flight, the goofball was committing assault. Aldrin then committed battery.
So, if Will Smith had stayed in his seat and countered the insult against his wife with the words he yelled, he would have been committing assault. Instead, he committed battery first and then assault.
It's kind of hard to wrap one's mind around the idea that yelling at someone can be considered a criminal offense, but there it is.
I think you're misremembering, or were misinformed, or perhaps were taught in a jurisdiction with a highly unusual standard. Assault is the attempt (or reasonable interpretation of an attempt) while battery is the actual act.
Words, in rare circumstances, can be considered assault, the so called "fighting words" situation, but something like Chris Rock's joke wouldn't come anywhere close to meeting that standard.
Resorting to violence over words is a sign of weakness, and poor impulse control, not strength. It's also not defending one's spouse. It's putting his reputation, ability to work, and potentially freedom at risk which is a net negative for his spouse's happiness and livelihood. (In California, in recent memory, at one single sport's venue, we've had two sucker-punch cases where the victim subsequently fell, suffered major head trauma, and ended up in a coma. That's four families devastated over violent responses to words.)
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Absent a statutory definition of assault, the courts have looked to the common law and have concluded that an "assault" is:
- An attempt with force or violence to do a corporal injury to another; may consist of any act tending to such corporal injury, accompanied with such circumstances as denotes at the time an intention, coupled with present ability, of using actual violence against the person.
https://www.justice.gov/archives/jm/criminal-resource-manual-1610-assault-18-usc-351e
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Words are not violence.
And yet, if someone was to insult you to your face, you'd have a physical reaction to it.
Happens all the time. Everywhere.
The trigger person rarely gets blamed for it either.
And they should be held equally responsible.
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Words are not violence.
And yet, if someone was to insult you to your face, you'd have a physical reaction to it.
Happens all the time. Everywhere.
The trigger person rarely gets blamed for it either.
And they should be held equally responsible.
If you can't physically control yourself when someone says words, that's on you.
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If you can't physically control yourself when someone says words, that's on you.
So it's okay to be an abusive dick, and if someone reacts to it it's their problem?
Stop the world. I'm getting off.
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Oh lordy. As a former actor, casting director and person dependent on the theatre, film and television industry for my income, I'm going to weigh in with my opinion. Real world rules don't apply here. There is only one rule: The show must go on. Will Smith broke the rule.
Chris Rock told an unfunny joke. Will Smith forgot that this wasn't about him or his wife, this was about the people watching. He thought the audience was sitting in the house, a bunch of his peers. No. The audience is watching at home. Chris Rock's joke landed with a dull thud and public opinion would have smacked him upside the head the next day. If Will Smith had sat there in stony silence and then used his speech time to speak to his wife's courage, he would have landed the goddamned plane.
Self-control is a vital skill for an actor at that level. Not an option. Gigantic budgets rest on actors keeping their sh*t together. Chris Rock can get away with being unfunny and his gigs will dry up. Will Smith cannot get away with loss of control. I watched the clip and my first thought was there goes his career, Rock's career and very likely Jada's as well.
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Being that this is a human world: if you cross the line far enough in someone's face, you shouldn't be shocked if it gets physical - regardless of where it happens. This is a lesson most of us learn by high school.
So I get Will Smith's reaction. But, on the surface - if Rock really didn't know about Jada's condition, which I find highly unlikely, not to mention his Good Hair documentary - then the joke is about a fashion choice and therefore, totally acceptable, regardless of how tasteless it might have been - which makes Smith's reaction certifiably crazy. In fact, even if the joke was a mean-spirited attack, Smith's reaction is still nuts. It's the f*cking Oscars. Save that sh*t for the parking lot Red Carpet.
At the end of the day, I have to agree that the show much go on. And while I understand Smith's reaction, and the long running feud between the three stars, understanding a thing is not the same as condoning it. I agree that Rock's joke would have been judged by the court of public opinion, which is to say that it wouldn't have mattered at all by the end of the week. Smith's confrontation, on the other hand, is going to have lasting consequences far beyond this isolated event. Given the circumstances, I think everyone can agree that Smith's reaction was, to say the least, unnecessary and extremely bad form.
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So it's okay to be an abusive dick, and if someone reacts to it it's their problem?
If that someone reacts by escalating the situation to a physical confrontation, that is on them.
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Words are not violence.
And yet, if someone was to insult you to your face, you'd have a physical reaction to it.
Speak for yourself.
So it's okay to be an abusive dick, and if someone reacts to it it's their problem?
Stop the world. I'm getting off.
Let's take a step back.
In your world, who gets to decide whether a comment deserves a violent response? After all, opinions vary on what constitutes good taste and bad taste.
For example, we can clearly see that Will Smith laughed at the joke while Jada was offended. So there's a difference in opinion at that very table. Now, imagine billions of people with their individual (and often private) insecurities, triggers, and opinions. Again, who decides when violence is appropriate to what many would consider a benign comment?
Here's how the conversation might play out...
You: "You look sad."
Me: "That's offensive to me. Don't comment on my appearance."
You: "Okay. Sorry."
Me: "Too late. I'm deeply offended and will now strike you for being 'an abusive dick' to me."
Again, are we to leave it up to the offended person to decide when violence is acceptable? Of course not. People get offended for all sorts of trivial sh*t. And frankly, the LAST person who should get to decide whether violence is appropriate is the emotionally fragile, insecure person who cannot control his impulses.
We should always condemn the initiation of physical force (i.e. violence).
On a related note, Dave Chappelle (nsfw):
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... I agree that Rock's joke would have been judged by the court of public opinion, which is to say that it wouldn't have mattered at all by the end of the week. Smith's confrontation, on the other hand, is going to have lasting consequences far beyond this isolated event.
It'll be interesting to see how this affects his career, at least in the short term.
Will casting directors be willing to go to bat for Smith if studios/producers are disinclined to take on the risk? (Interviews with Smith to promote films are bound to bring up The Slap, and studios/producers may not want the headache.)
Meanwhile, the interwebz is forever. Will this be a "Tom Cruise jumping on Oprah's couch" moment, eventually forgiven and forgotten years later as the actor controls himself and keeps logging home runs? Or will Smith's prospects decline as his movies continue to fall flat at the box office?
He had an immensely likable image. It's now tarnished. But he can come back. When people mention Cruise these days, it's usually in the context of his amazing stunts, big productions, crazy Scientology associations, and his couch-jumping episode - in that order.
We'll see.
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Wasn't it Fitzgerald who claimed there are no second acts in America? But he was wrong.
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America is very forgiving...or very forgetful, either way, everyone involved should be just fine - eventually-ish.
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But, on the surface - if Rock really didn't know about Jada's condition, which I find highly unlikely, not to mention his Good Hair documentary - then the joke is about a fashion choice and therefore, totally acceptable, regardless of how tasteless it might have been - which makes Smith's reaction certifiably crazy.
No way to be sure, but I don't even think the joke was intended as about fashion choice so much as he thought it was a fashion choice rather than a condition and used that to make a joke about Jada's inability to get quality movie roles. That she shaved her head in the hopes of getting cast in GI Jane 2, a sequel to a forgotten/bad film from 30 years ago. This tracks with his confusion in the moment when he said something like "over a GI Jane joke?".
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We should always condemn the initiation of physical force (i.e. violence).
But no-one condemns the cause of the reaction.
Or does anything to change a society that thinks it's normal.
When someone goes apesh*t in your face, there's always a lesson in what you did to make it happen, and how you stop yourself from doing that again. But that's spiritual woowoo and thus can be ignored.
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What it is, is the excuse abusers use. The line is too fine and shouldn't be made acceptable.
Honey, you made me do it. Stop talking sh*t about me to your friends and it won't happen again. Promise.