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Writer's Haven => Writer's Workshop [Public] => Topic started by: R. C. on March 16, 2023, 10:14:31 PM

Title: That is the question...
Post by: R. C. on March 16, 2023, 10:14:31 PM
Genre: Narrative Suspense-Mystery
Perspective: Protagonist

I am using the internal dialog of the primary character to express his mindset and to describe his ADD influenced mental analysis - NOT - scene setting.

Internal dialog? Italicized or not? That is the question.

R.C.
Title: Re: That is the question...
Post by: TimothyEllis on March 16, 2023, 10:16:25 PM
First person or third person?
Title: Re: That is the question...
Post by: R. C. on March 16, 2023, 10:38:16 PM
First person or third person?

Yes, of course.  It is almost all first person. But, this is where my poor English language education leaks into my daily effort. 

Here is an example. Sunday dinner, large family, middle daughter is arguing with patriarch. Protagonist wants information and understands the recent family harmony will break down (again) if he doesn't change the mood.

-----

“I agree, rain and lots of it are needed. The toxicity, however, will subside. Trust me.”

Grace will create another impasse with her father if I don't step in and change the topic.

“Henry, this pie is excellent. It is not too sweet and not too tart at the same time. What is the filling?”

-----

Another example:

-----

“First, blow your nose. No one wants to see snot bubbles.”

Why is she pressing? Mary is worried about something.
----

R.C.
Title: Re: That is the question...
Post by: Hopscotch on March 16, 2023, 10:41:36 PM
Your solution reads clearly and is easily understood as interior monologue.  That's all that counts.
Title: Re: That is the question...
Post by: TimothyEllis on March 16, 2023, 10:47:34 PM
No need for italics.

I write this almost exclusively now.

The internal processing between dialogue is just normal text.

What I do though is: write the dialogue. Line feed. Write the internal processing. Next line of dialogue.

The only time I run dialogue and internal together in a paragraph is when the next dialogue is the same person talking, and the whole thing is still only a shortish paragraph length.

Most of what I do has dialogue and internal separate. It makes for a cleaner read. And actually spreads the book out a bit more.

I really dislike short dialogue and then long exposition all in one paragraph, either way around.
Title: Re: That is the question...
Post by: Bill Hiatt on March 16, 2023, 11:10:26 PM
It's seems to be very much an author's choice. I see trad books doing it both ways.

Personally, I like italics for interior monolog. Some readers may have no problem distinguishing even if it isn't italicized, but I discovered during my years as a teacher that not everyone processes the same way. I've never seen anyone get confused when the interior stuff is italicized. I have seen some confusion when it isn't.
Title: Re: That is the question...
Post by: Bill Hiatt on March 16, 2023, 11:14:52 PM
Here's a nice summary of the issues: https://www.masterclass.com/articles/how-to-write-internal-dialogue (https://www.masterclass.com/articles/how-to-write-internal-dialogue)

As an aside, if you plan to convert to audio at some point, books with a lot of internal monolog and no tags make the material very awkward to convert. What's obvious on the page, with italics or not, may not be as clear when narrated.
Title: Re: That is the question...
Post by: R. C. on March 16, 2023, 11:18:39 PM
Here's a nice summary of the issues: https://www.masterclass.com/articles/how-to-write-internal-dialogue (https://www.masterclass.com/articles/how-to-write-internal-dialogue)

As an aside, if you plan to convert to audio at some point, books with a lot of internal monolog and no tags make the material very awkward to convert. What's obvious on the page, with italics or not, may not be as clear when narrated.

Arg... Thanks. I had forgotten I bookmarked that page several months (years) ago. 

The article and my editors remind me, I don't use enough dialog tags.

R.C.
Title: Re: That is the question...
Post by: TimothyEllis on March 16, 2023, 11:20:16 PM
As an aside, if you plan to convert to audio at some point, books with a lot of internal monolog and no tags make the material very awkward to convert.

Only in 3rd person.

In first person, the entire story IS internal monologue.

Literally everything is the thoughts of the narrator, except for the dialogue.
Title: Re: That is the question...
Post by: Bill Hiatt on March 16, 2023, 11:21:01 PM
Dialog tags aren't always necessary, particularly if you use italics--unless you want to convert to audio. Then it's better to have them.
Title: Re: That is the question...
Post by: Bill Hiatt on March 16, 2023, 11:22:52 PM
As an aside, if you plan to convert to audio at some point, books with a lot of internal monolog and no tags make the material very awkward to convert.

Only in 3rd person.

In first person, the entire story IS internal monologue.

Literally everything is the thoughts of the narrator, except for the dialogue.
Logically, that's true. And for print purposes, I wouldn't use dialog tags for internal monolog as a way of distinguishing it from spoken dialog. But as I said, it can get confusing in audio format.
Title: Re: That is the question...
Post by: PJ Post on March 16, 2023, 11:57:47 PM
In first person, the entire story IS internal monologue.

This.
Title: Re: That is the question...
Post by: R. C. on March 17, 2023, 12:08:26 AM
<snip>

4 Internal Dialogue Examples in First-Person POV

Many bestselling authors choose to tell their stories through first-person narration, capitalizing on the increased sense of immediacy the style brings. Here are examples of internal dialogue written in the first-person POV:

1. Italicized, with tag: Jasper kept screaming about how the aliens were after him. I sighed. This is not science fiction, old man, I thought. This is real life.
2. Italicized, without tag: Jasper kept screaming about how the aliens were after him. I sighed. This is not science fiction, old man. This is real life.
3. Not italicized, with tag: Jasper kept screaming about how the aliens were after him. I sighed. This is not science fiction, old man, I thought. This is real life.
4. Not italicized, without tag: Jasper kept screaming about how the aliens were after him. I sighed. This is not science fiction, old man. This is real life.

Options three and four are closest to my style.

R.C.
Title: Re: That is the question...
Post by: TimothyEllis on March 17, 2023, 12:26:16 AM
1. Italicized, with tag: Jasper kept screaming about how the aliens were after him. I sighed. This is not science fiction, old man, I thought. This is real life.
2. Italicized, without tag: Jasper kept screaming about how the aliens were after him. I sighed. This is not science fiction, old man. This is real life.
3. Not italicized, with tag: Jasper kept screaming about how the aliens were after him. I sighed. This is not science fiction, old man, I thought. This is real life.
4. Not italicized, without tag: Jasper kept screaming about how the aliens were after him. I sighed. This is not science fiction, old man. This is real life.

None of the above.

In fact for me, they are just wrong.

That's the writing of someone who normally writes in 3rd person.

The whole 'I thought' thing is redundant. Even addressing yourself as 'old man' in that way isn't right for the context.

Jasper kept screaming about how the aliens were after him. I sighed. This wasn't science fiction. This was real life. And it was making me feel old.
Title: Re: That is the question...
Post by: R. C. on March 17, 2023, 12:39:17 AM
1. Italicized, with tag: Jasper kept screaming about how the aliens were after him. I sighed. This is not science fiction, old man, I thought. This is real life.
2. Italicized, without tag: Jasper kept screaming about how the aliens were after him. I sighed. This is not science fiction, old man. This is real life.
3. Not italicized, with tag: Jasper kept screaming about how the aliens were after him. I sighed. This is not science fiction, old man, I thought. This is real life.
4. Not italicized, without tag: Jasper kept screaming about how the aliens were after him. I sighed. This is not science fiction, old man. This is real life.

None of the above.

In fact for me, they are just wrong.

That's the writing of someone who normally writes in 3rd person.

The whole 'I thought' thing is redundant. Even addressing yourself as 'old man' in that way isn't right for the context.

Jasper kept screaming about how the aliens were after him. I sighed. This wasn't science fiction. This was real life. And it was making me feel old.

HA! Too true. I can't remember ever writing "I sighed." or "I thought."

R.C.
Title: Re: That is the question...
Post by: TimothyEllis on March 17, 2023, 01:01:14 AM
HA! Too true. I can't remember ever writing "I sighed."

I do 'I sighed' quite often. Every time I do it for real as I write in fact.   grint

I also do face palming and taking a moment.  :icon_mrgreen:
Title: Re: That is the question...
Post by: Luke Everhart on March 17, 2023, 01:02:22 PM
1. Italicized, with tag: Jasper kept screaming about how the aliens were after him. I sighed. This is not science fiction, old man, I thought. This is real life.
2. Italicized, without tag: Jasper kept screaming about how the aliens were after him. I sighed. This is not science fiction, old man. This is real life.
3. Not italicized, with tag: Jasper kept screaming about how the aliens were after him. I sighed. This is not science fiction, old man, I thought. This is real life.
4. Not italicized, without tag: Jasper kept screaming about how the aliens were after him. I sighed. This is not science fiction, old man. This is real life.

None of the above.

In fact for me, they are just wrong.

That's the writing of someone who normally writes in 3rd person.

The whole 'I thought' thing is redundant. Even addressing yourself as 'old man' in that way isn't right for the context.

Jasper kept screaming about how the aliens were after him. I sighed. This wasn't science fiction. This was real life. And it was making me feel old.

As a guy who reads a TON of first person books (urban fantasy is overwhelmingly first person) I completely agree with Timothy here and his example rewrite:
Jasper kept screaming about how the aliens were after him. I sighed. This wasn't science fiction. This was real life. And it was making me feel old.
is consistent with virtually all of the best first person (both traditional (Butcher, Andrews, Briggs, Correia, et al) and indie (Mayers, Marie, Harper, Silvers, et al) I read.
Title: Re: That is the question...
Post by: Lynn on March 17, 2023, 01:24:16 PM
Old man is Jasper, so #4 is already exactly what you guys are talking about. :)

The internal dialogue is present tense, so I could see rewriting for past, but that's about it. It works in either past or present. Just depends on the effect you want.
Title: Re: That is the question...
Post by: The Bass Bagwhan on March 22, 2023, 09:55:05 PM
Lyn touches on the subtle but very important difference between using the " I thought" device and representing internal thoughts in real-time in italics. There's a connection to passive and active language depending on what you use. Most writing will have a combination depending on what the story-telling demands.
Nothing is wrong or right, although italics have been a long-held convention for many styles and genres, and many readers will welcome it.

I always use italics for real-time internal thought. There's no ambiguity or confusion for the reader, and it often eschews the need for any kind of tag. However, I'll avoid any writing that creates large slabs of italics because I think that visually it's fatiguing for a reader.

The lack of quotation marks around internal thought that isn't italicised always risks that a reader will reach the end of a sentence or paragraph and THEN discover it's not prose (if you know what I mean).

But as always, each to their own. This is a discussion about style and voice, not set-in-stone rules. Do your own thing.