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Bar & Grill [Public] / Re: Star Wars Ep 9 - The Rise of Skywalker
« Last post by VHS on Today at 05:50:39 AM »
Star Wars was a fairy tale, fantastically realized, that all ages could enjoy. The Empire Strikes Back was its excellent, mythical continuation.

Return of the Jedi was a two hour toy commercial. Producer Gary Kurtz and George Lucas did not see eye to eye on this, and I side with Kurtz who was more about the integrity of the story. By this time Lucas had grown weary of the franchise and was more concerned with box office and merchandising.

Then years later with the prequels Lucas set about demystifying what was so gloriously mystical about the original iteration of his creation in the first place.

That mysticism is part of what made the original two films so great even to the point that the third entry in the original trilogy still manages to coast on the fumes of the first two films in the minds of many.

Then Disney comes along and like the rest of the current zeitgeist in Hollywood, there's this resistance to earnestness. Fairy tales are always being subverted now. Most Hollywood creatives now are these detached deconstructionists and TV-style writers or they're political animals refusing to be caught in an uncool pose. Everything's gotta be done with a wink and a smile.

The strange thing is everyone is so into "nerd culture" now and how cool it is, and yet the thing that actually made us nerds back in the day was our strong embrace of the earnest and the fairy tale to the point that it made us decidedly uncool.

Luke and Yoda and Vader and the Force weren't created specifically for spectacle and scenes and characters weren't written to be "badass". The fairy tale mysticism of the originals was brought into the world with heart and purpose and through changes in general societal norms and all the corporate ballyhoo and Hollywood post-modernism that's been lost.
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Bar & Grill [Public] / Re: Star Wars Ep 9 - The Rise of Skywalker
« Last post by PJ Post on April 19, 2019, 10:50:31 AM »
Quote from: TimothyEllis link=topic=2176.msg40642#msg40 than 642 date=1555583449
But had they taken it out of the Stars Wars universe and made it as a stand alone trilogy with Space Wizards instead of Jedi, and Dark Wizards instead of Sith, and sold it as a female empowerment alternative to Star Wars, it would now be getting acclaim instead of hate.

I can't agree with this. While the TLJ was cinematically beautiful, it was a terrible movie. It wasn't even consistent with itself. The tone was all over the place...was it a drama, an adventure or a comedy? Depends on what part of the scene you're watching, because every scene's pretty much all three. Every dramatic moment was followed by an out of place joke. It's called Bathos. It was a disaster. The blatant (and poorly executed at that) political agenda was the least of its problems.

The Force Awakens was a competent movie that did what it needed to do.

Besides making a boatload of money, not sure I agree with this either. It was a remake/reboot of New Hope. It twisted the in-universe logic as to make no sense.  Why is the First Order a thing? Why is the new super weapon another Death Star? And while we're on the subject, how can they afford to build a planet-sized weapon? Why are the Rebels...um, I mean the Resistance...fighting on their own? What happened to the Republic? And moreover, why would Luke, the guy who always sees the best in everyone, the potential in every situation, the good in every action, ever desert his family and those that depend on him? JJ f*cked up Luke's character way before Rian got to him.

Solo was every bit as bad as TLJ, just for different reasons. Why can't Lucuasfilm get competent directors for these movies? I was really disappointed in JJ (loved Super 8, Star Trek and Fringe), have no explanation for Rian and get the sense that poor Howard was brought in more so for triage than any directorial vision. Then again, it's been 'rumored' that it's Kennedy and the rest of the studio 'committee' that's responsible for these trainwrecks.
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Bar & Grill [Public] / Re: Star Wars Ep 9 - The Rise of Skywalker
« Last post by Maggie Ann on April 19, 2019, 01:33:13 AM »
And Hayden Christiansen is back. Probably just a voice-over guiding Rey through the lost city. He's had plenty of time to take acting lessons, so maybe I won't be cringing.

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Bar & Grill [Public] / Re: Star Wars Ep 9 - The Rise of Skywalker
« Last post by Bill Hiatt on April 19, 2019, 12:34:19 AM »
The toxic anger and hate just fed and fed and fed into this narrative that the movies weren't just "bad" but "wrong."

I've said that all along.

Mouse wars is WRONG when labelled as Star Wars. Everything about it is WRONGWRONGWRONGWRONG.

But had they taken it out of the Stars Wars universe and made it as a stand alone trilogy with Space Wizards instead of Jedi, and Dark Wizards instead of Sith, and sold it as a female empowerment alternative to Star Wars, it would now be getting acclaim instead of hate.
To some extent. I agree with Julie that at least one of the films is problematic for reasons having nothing to do with the franchise. But it's certainly true that when later additions to a franchise don't keep faith with the earlier material, that's just asking for trouble with the fans, which is exactly what happened.

So many wrong turns could be avoided if companies were willing to put different ideas into new franchises rather than jamming them into old ones in which they didn't fit.
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Bar & Grill [Public] / Re: Star Wars Ep 9 - The Rise of Skywalker
« Last post by TimothyEllis on April 18, 2019, 08:30:49 PM »
The toxic anger and hate just fed and fed and fed into this narrative that the movies weren't just "bad" but "wrong."

I've said that all along.

Mouse wars is WRONG when labelled as Star Wars. Everything about it is WRONGWRONGWRONGWRONG.

But had they taken it out of the Stars Wars universe and made it as a stand alone trilogy with Space Wizards instead of Jedi, and Dark Wizards instead of Sith, and sold it as a female empowerment alternative to Star Wars, it would now be getting acclaim instead of hate.
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Bar & Grill [Public] / Re: Star Wars Ep 9 - The Rise of Skywalker
« Last post by bardsandsages on April 18, 2019, 03:02:26 AM »
The Force Awakens was a competent movie that did what it needed to do. It wasn't great, but it wasn't bad.

Do you think anyone would have watched it if it didn't have Star Wars in the name?

Yes, and I think people would have been less critical of it if it wasn't a "Star Wars" movie.

Like Bill mentioned, a lot of it is perspective. The original Dragon Age game was amazing. Then DA2 came out and everyone was "WTF?" It wasn't that it was a bad game. It was a solid story with good characters. But after the open-world perspective of the original, the railroad feel compounded with the recycling of assets left a bad taste in a lot of people's mouths. If Dragon Age 2 had been made with a different world but the exact same mechanics, the backlash would never have been as severe. But when expectations run high, a moderately good game or movie looks worse than it actually is.

I also think that the male toxicity from a small group of obnoxious men poisoned the feelings toward the franchise. The movies have legitimate issues. But there was a very real misogynistic and racist undercurrent feeding the negativity. No, I am not saying everyone that hates the movies is a racist or a misogynist. But that very vocal group amplified everything that was wrong and drowned out a lot that was good (except for TLJ. There was very little redeemable about TLJ).  The toxic anger and hate just fed and fed and fed into this narrative that the movies weren't just "bad" but "wrong." There was a mob mentality in play that too many people didn't realize. Like too much on the internet, venom feeds venom and spreads faster than measured dialogue.

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Bar & Grill [Public] / Re: Food Porn
« Last post by VisitasKeat on April 18, 2019, 02:57:35 AM »
I got lucky and snagged some okras at the Asian grocery and made gumbo with turkey, shrimps and crawfish:
How many fingers from how many ladies? :icon_rofl:
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Bar & Grill [Public] / Re: Star Wars Ep 9 - The Rise of Skywalker
« Last post by Edward M. Grant on April 18, 2019, 02:18:39 AM »
The Force Awakens was a competent movie that did what it needed to do. It wasn't great, but it wasn't bad.

Do you think anyone would have watched it if it didn't have Star Wars in the name?
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Bar & Grill [Public] / Re: Star Wars Ep 9 - The Rise of Skywalker
« Last post by Bill Hiatt on April 18, 2019, 01:33:43 AM »
I don't see any evidence of 'write to market'. I don't know anyone in the real world who actually liked Han Solo Dies At The End (I can't even remember the official title of the movie), and few on the Internet. It was just dismal in every respect, and the only decent parts were the ones the original characters were in.

The Force Awakens was a competent movie that did what it needed to do. It wasn't great, but it wasn't bad. It needed to bridge the gap between the original trilogy and those whose first experience with Star Wars was the prequels. And it has been so long since there had been a SW movie that they probably felt they DID need to sort of rehash a lot because you can't assume everyone watching even KNOWS what is going on.

I also believe Harrison Ford sort of DEMANDED that they kill off Han, as he really didn't want to do any more of the movies. He actually thought Han should have died in the original trilogy.

Rogue One was the "we need to fill that huge plot hole that has been tormenting us for literally generations" movie. I actually enjoyed it, but I went in expecting a tragedy. Continuity wise, you sort of new how it had to end. It was just a matter of seeing how it would get there.

I feel a lot of the current trash talking about TFA and RO is based on the hatred of TLJ. TLJ was horrible. Not from "SJW" point, but from just horrible filmmaking and storytelling. Rian Johnson has zero respect for the source material and DIDN'T EVEN TRY to make any of it work within the continuity of the entire franchise. Johnson was more interested in making a "Rian Johnson" movie than a Star Wars movie. The backlash is what hurt Solo (which, though I didn't like the actor they chose for Han, was a good space western otherwise). If TFA had been decent, I don't think people would be going back and trashing the other movies as well. A lot of it is just venom over TLJ.
There is a lot to be said for that perspective.

I think another problem Disney had was the excision of the non-movie elements from the canon. I know why Disney moved in that direction--it wanted to untie its hands to create whatever stories it chose. But the net effect was to anger a fair percentage of the fans before the first movie ever hit theaters.

And then were was George Lucas's famous remark (which he quickly had to apologize for) about selling the Star Wars franchise to Disney being like selling his children to white slavers. When the father of a franchise denounces its current incarnation, how can that not lead to bad feelings?

I also think the long gap between movies played a part. Not only did it make it less likely that fans would know the backstory (hence the need for the rehash you mentioned), but it gave anticipation among die-hard fans so long to build that it would have been virtually impossible to satisfy their expectations.
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Bar & Grill [Public] / Re: Star Wars Ep 9 - The Rise of Skywalker
« Last post by bardsandsages on April 18, 2019, 12:34:37 AM »
I don't see any evidence of 'write to market'. I don't know anyone in the real world who actually liked Han Solo Dies At The End (I can't even remember the official title of the movie), and few on the Internet. It was just dismal in every respect, and the only decent parts were the ones the original characters were in.

The Force Awakens was a competent movie that did what it needed to do. It wasn't great, but it wasn't bad. It needed to bridge the gap between the original trilogy and those whose first experience with Star Wars was the prequels. And it has been so long since there had been a SW movie that they probably felt they DID need to sort of rehash a lot because you can't assume everyone watching even KNOWS what is going on.

I also believe Harrison Ford sort of DEMANDED that they kill off Han, as he really didn't want to do any more of the movies. He actually thought Han should have died in the original trilogy.

Rogue One was the "we need to fill that huge plot hole that has been tormenting us for literally generations" movie. I actually enjoyed it, but I went in expecting a tragedy. Continuity wise, you sort of new how it had to end. It was just a matter of seeing how it would get there.

I feel a lot of the current trash talking about TFA and RO is based on the hatred of TLJ. TLJ was horrible. Not from "SJW" point, but from just horrible filmmaking and storytelling. Rian Johnson has zero respect for the source material and DIDN'T EVEN TRY to make any of it work within the continuity of the entire franchise. Johnson was more interested in making a "Rian Johnson" movie than a Star Wars movie. The backlash is what hurt Solo (which, though I didn't like the actor they chose for Han, was a good space western otherwise). If TFA had been decent, I don't think people would be going back and trashing the other movies as well. A lot of it is just venom over TLJ.
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