Author Topic: Semicolons  (Read 1602 times)

Wifey

Semicolons
« on: September 25, 2018, 02:29:31 AM »
I love semicolons and use them in my fiction. I’ve read over and over they should be avoided in fiction. So far, I’ve had no complaints from readers (or editors.)


Does anyone else use them?
Genres: Romance, Chic Lit, YA
 

Llano

Re: Semicolons
« Reply #1 on: September 25, 2018, 02:31:21 AM »
I use them but then often remove them in subsequent passes. It's one of those things that's entirely correct, but could probably be avoided, and the sentence made clearer, by rewriting.
 

idontknowyet

Re: Semicolons
« Reply #2 on: September 25, 2018, 02:34:01 AM »

I will admit to not knowing the rules of semi colon use. Therefore I avoid them like the plague.
Writing around things I don't understand is my friend. :icon_think:   :shocked:
 

Vijaya

Re: Semicolons
« Reply #3 on: September 25, 2018, 02:34:15 AM »
I use them when I feel they're warranted. I also like m-dashes, but am allergic to exclamation points.

Author of over 60 books and 60 magazine pieces, primarily for children
Vijaya Bodach | Personal Blog | Bodach Books
 

Wifey

Re: Semicolons
« Reply #4 on: September 25, 2018, 02:36:28 AM »

I will admit to not knowing the rules of semi colon use. Therefore I avoid them like the plague.
Writing around things I don't understand is my friend. :icon_think:   :shocked:


I used to feel this way but once I was informed, I fell in love.
Genres: Romance, Chic Lit, YA
 

Wifey

Re: Semicolons
« Reply #5 on: September 25, 2018, 02:38:20 AM »
I use them when I feel they're warranted. I also like m-dashes, but am allergic to exclamation points.


When I first started out, I was an m-dash fan but don’t use the much anymore. Not sure why.
Genres: Romance, Chic Lit, YA
 

Wifey

Re: Semicolons
« Reply #6 on: September 25, 2018, 02:39:04 AM »
I use them but then often remove them in subsequent passes. It's one of those things that's entirely correct, but could probably be avoided, and the sentence made clearer, by rewriting.


I do the opposite and tend to add them during rewrites.
Genres: Romance, Chic Lit, YA
 

Kate Elizabeth

Re: Semicolons
« Reply #7 on: September 25, 2018, 02:59:14 AM »
I guess that I grew to love semicolons from all of those horrible research papers I had to do in school.  I don't use them much in my fiction, but I still manage to sneak some in there.
 

RPatton

Re: Semicolons
« Reply #8 on: September 25, 2018, 04:14:43 AM »
It's not that semi colons shouldn't be used in fiction, it's that using semi colons usually means you have a clause that could be its own sentence. Or if you're like me, you completely ignore the semi colon and go for the horribly incorrect comma splice.


There's also an aspect of familiarity (something I've recently developed a new appreciation for). When you're reading across a line on a page (either in a glass or paper book), your brain might not stop what its doing (recognizing familiar patterns) to consider what that little symbol means in regards to those patterns it's quickly processing. If something on the page jars the reader from their task, I don't want it anywhere near the page.



« Last Edit: September 25, 2018, 04:42:32 AM by RPatton »
 

Wifey

Re: Semicolons
« Reply #9 on: September 25, 2018, 04:24:14 AM »
It's not that semi colons shouldn't be used in fiction, it's usually that using semi colons usually means you have a clause that could be its own sentence. Or if you're like me, you completely ignore the semi colon and go for the horribly incorrect comma splice.


There's also an aspect of familiarity (something I've recently developed a new appreciation for). When you're reading across a line on a page (either in a glass or paper book), your brain might not stop what its doing (recognizing familiar patterns) to consider what that little symbol means in regards to those patterns it's quickly processing. If something on the page jars the reader from their task, I don't want it anywhere near the page.


Good point
Genres: Romance, Chic Lit, YA
 

Lex

Re: Semicolons
« Reply #10 on: September 25, 2018, 04:44:56 AM »
I almost never use them. As a reader, I'm not super picky about punctuation (even when it comes to the Oxford comma, which you can pry from my cold, dead hands).
 

Jeff Tanyard

Re: Semicolons
« Reply #11 on: September 25, 2018, 05:15:45 AM »
I use all the punctuation marks.   :icon_mrgreen:

(Yes, I've even used colons.   :angel:)
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elleoco

Re: Semicolons
« Reply #12 on: September 25, 2018, 06:36:59 AM »
I use semis occasionally. There are times I want two clauses to be more closely associated than they would be as separate sentences or with a conjunction, yet I don't like comma-spliced sentences. I use dashes a lot more often but try not to do it without a good reason. A lot of them disappear in revision.

Just recently I read some older books that had semis used frequently enough I noticed. Only because they're frowned on these days. I think it was Elmer Kelton. He won a lot of awards in his day, but that was the '80s.

LSMay

Re: Semicolons
« Reply #13 on: September 25, 2018, 07:55:40 PM »
I use them on occasion. I know they're officially 'frowned upon' but when the situation calls for them, it calls for them. I don't like comma splices, and sometimes you need a semi to fix one without rearranging the sentence, changing the tone or adding extra words.

L S May | Website | Twitter | Goodreads
 

Royal Editorial (Katie)

Re: Semicolons
« Reply #14 on: September 25, 2018, 09:13:43 PM »
My motto: if the usage is correct and adds clarity or meaning, use it.  :)
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Lex

Re: Semicolons
« Reply #15 on: September 26, 2018, 12:58:07 AM »
My motto: if the usage is correct and adds clarity or meaning, use it.  :)


 

Oh_cabanaboy

Re: Semicolons
« Reply #16 on: September 26, 2018, 06:38:56 AM »
I use semis liberally, but have also been side-eyeing them since reading that I should back off, already. But they are valid and useful tools! My feeling is, if they don’t jump out at me as being a ‘thing’ in a re-read, I leave them. But if they pop at me, or seem a bit embarrassed to be there, I’ll rewrite.


(It’s a fine line though, because if I’m in the wrong mood when editing, EVERYTHING seems embarrassed to be there...)  :icon_redface:
 

RPatton

Re: Semicolons
« Reply #17 on: September 26, 2018, 07:27:07 AM »
I use semis liberally, but have also been side-eyeing them since reading that I should back off, already. But they are valid and useful tools! My feeling is, if they don’t jump out at me as being a ‘thing’ in a re-read, I leave them. But if they pop at me, or seem a bit embarrassed to be there, I’ll rewrite.

(It’s a fine line though, because if I’m in the wrong mood when editing, EVERYTHING seems embarrassed to be there...)  :icon_redface:


Great rule of thumb, but I would recommend that you actually read it in the format the reader will. What you see on the screen of your computer is completely different than what someone sees on an ereader or mobile device. Also, keep in mind your level of familiarity might be different from the reader.
 

Cathleen

Re: Semicolons
« Reply #18 on: September 26, 2018, 09:52:40 PM »
I use semicolons, but I tend to think in sentences that have them. To my mind, they're less noticeable than an em dash. And I really hate it when someone substitutes in a comma splice instead. Comma splices on the first page will get me to close the book.
 

WriteOn

Re: Semicolons
« Reply #19 on: September 27, 2018, 03:22:29 AM »
I avoid them. I've now had two editors who have told me they should be avoided as they are intrusive to the reader. I thought it was odd the first time I heard it, but after the second time, I decided to use them sparingly.

I also rarely use exclamation points and use em dashes on occasion as well as ellipses.
 

archaeoroutes

Re: Semicolons
« Reply #20 on: September 27, 2018, 07:19:33 AM »
Love semi-colons.
Love parenthetical commas (often wrongly accused of being splices).
Hate m-dashes with a vengeance.
Will use exclamation marks in dialogue.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2018, 07:23:19 AM by archaeoroutes »
 

bookworm

Re: Semicolons
« Reply #21 on: September 27, 2018, 09:50:39 AM »
I don't see anything wrong with semicolons. There's lots of bad advice out there. One "writing book" I read said that ebooks should have lots of paragraphs that contain only one sentence. :D
 

guest120

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Re: Semicolons
« Reply #22 on: September 27, 2018, 10:20:28 AM »
I only use semicolons with a wink and a smile.
 
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Tom Wood

Re: Semicolons
« Reply #23 on: September 27, 2018, 12:00:00 PM »
Speaking of comma splices... How else would you indicate pauses in dialogue?


I was critiqued for using commas in dialogue to indicate pauses in a character's speech pattern. People do interrupt themselves, change direction, and come up with new ideas on the fly. How else would you show that other than using a comma to separate the different thoughts as they naturally arise?
 

Jeff Tanyard

Re: Semicolons
« Reply #24 on: September 27, 2018, 12:52:30 PM »
Speaking of comma splices... How else would you indicate pauses in dialogue?


I was critiqued for using commas in dialogue to indicate pauses in a character's speech pattern. People do interrupt themselves, change direction, and come up with new ideas on the fly. How else would you show that other than using a comma to separate the different thoughts as they naturally arise?


Speech trailing off: ellipsis
Speech interrupted: emdash

 :icon_biggrin:
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BlueWren

Re: Semicolons
« Reply #25 on: September 27, 2018, 01:48:38 PM »
Speaking of comma splices... How else would you indicate pauses in dialogue?


I was critiqued for using commas in dialogue to indicate pauses in a character's speech pattern. People do interrupt themselves, change direction, and come up with new ideas on the fly. How else would you show that other than using a comma to separate the different thoughts as they naturally arise?


I'm of the opinion that anything goes when it comes to character's speech, as long as it's readable. I use commas, em-dashes, ellipses - they all add flavour to the character.
 

She-la-te-da

Re: Semicolons
« Reply #26 on: September 27, 2018, 07:25:06 PM »
Quote
People do interrupt themselves, change direction, and come up with new ideas on the fly. How else would you show that other than using a comma to separate the different thoughts as they naturally arise?

It depends on how they're interrupting themselves. Abrupt? Use an em dash. Hesitant? Use ellipsis. But don't make a habit of it. If possible, try to show in the narrative that the character is doing this. The main reason people spout the "rules" is because writers can be lazy and not use their words to describe things.

Personally, I avoid semi colons in fiction. I try not to have a lot of em dashes or ellipsis, run-on sentences or comma splices. Exclamation marks only in dialog, but try to make things clear with the words I use, speech tags and so on. I'm sure I mess up at times, everyone does, but these are my preferences in writing. And reading. The main thing is to always be clear for the reader. Don't make them read something more than once to understand your meaning (I'm looking at you, Nora Roberts, you head-hopping thing).
I write various flavors of speculative fiction. This is my main pen name.

 

Guerin

Re: Semicolons
« Reply #27 on: September 28, 2018, 12:32:50 AM »
Speaking of comma splices... How else would you indicate pauses in dialogue?
Is this one of those trick questions? Are you by any chance one of those dreaded English teachers who never stops teaching? I'm not falling for your trickery!

On the subject of semicolons; Until you can all agree on when and when not to use them, count me out.

Guerin Zand | Website | Facebook
 
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Simon Haynes

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Re: Semicolons
« Reply #28 on: September 28, 2018, 12:49:04 AM »
Speaking of comma splices... How else would you indicate pauses in dialogue?


I was critiqued for using commas in dialogue to indicate pauses in a character's speech pattern. People do interrupt themselves, change direction, and come up with new ideas on the fly. How else would you show that other than using a comma to separate the different thoughts as they naturally arise?


Speech trailing off: ellipsis
Speech interrupted: emdash

 :icon_biggrin:


Agreed!

I was reading a look-inside today where an author used commas to represent pauses and interruptions, and it took me a while to get used to seeing so many of them. (It was written in first person, so there were lots of interrupted thoughts in addition to the dialogue.)



 

Tom Wood

Re: Semicolons
« Reply #29 on: September 28, 2018, 12:56:08 AM »
Speaking of comma splices... How else would you indicate pauses in dialogue?
Is this one of those trick questions? Are you by any chance one of those dreaded English teachers who never stops teaching? I'm not falling for your trickery!

On the subject of semicolons; Until you can all agree on when and when not to use them, count me out.


You vill uze zee zemi colonz ven told!
« Last Edit: October 07, 2018, 11:47:39 PM by Tom Wood »
 

Lady T L Jennings

Re: Semicolons
« Reply #30 on: September 28, 2018, 04:13:14 AM »

I will admit to not knowing the rules of semi colon use. Therefore I avoid them like the plague.
Writing around things I don't understand is my friend. :icon_think:   :shocked:

Here is a link that might help to The Oatmeal comic regarding how to use semicolon: http://theoatmeal.com/comics/semicolon
Lady T. L. Jennings ~ Writing Victorian Romance and ohlala in longhand since 2011. Visit her at: www.mysecretquill.com

     
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Jeff Tanyard

Re: Semicolons
« Reply #31 on: September 28, 2018, 06:05:58 AM »
Speaking of comma splices... How else would you indicate pauses in dialogue?
Is this one of those trick questions?


Holy catfish!  I totally missed that!   :icon_lol2:

Nice catch, Guerin.   :icon_mrgreen:
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Tom Wood

Re: Semicolons
« Reply #32 on: September 28, 2018, 06:37:03 AM »
Speaking of comma splices... How else would you indicate pauses in dialogue?
Is this one of those trick questions?


Holy catfish!  I totally missed that!   :icon_lol2:

Nice catch, Guerin.   :icon_mrgreen:


I meant to do that!
« Last Edit: October 07, 2018, 10:53:48 PM by Tom Wood »
 

Jeff Tanyard

Re: Semicolons
« Reply #33 on: September 28, 2018, 06:55:01 AM »
Speaking of comma splices... How else would you indicate pauses in dialogue?
Is this one of those trick questions?


Holy catfish!  I totally missed that!   :icon_lol2:

Nice catch, Guerin.   :icon_mrgreen:


I meant to do that!


 :icon_lol2:
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elleoco

Re: Semicolons
« Reply #34 on: September 28, 2018, 08:00:53 AM »
There's lots of bad advice out there. One "writing book" I read said that ebooks should have lots of paragraphs that contain only one sentence. :D
This is probably a corruption of what is IMO good advice - break up paragraphs so that they're short enough they don't fill an ereader's whole screen. If you read on a Kindle, you see a lot of this, and it can be a reader discourager.

guest390

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Re: Semicolons
« Reply #35 on: September 28, 2018, 11:14:56 AM »
    • [/color]Rules for Using Semicolons[/size][/color][/font][/size]
    • A semicolon is most commonly used to link (in a single sentence) two  that are closely related in thought.
      When a semicolon is used to join two or more ideas (parts) in a sentence, those ideas are then given equal position or rank.
      Some people write with a word processor; others write with a pen or pencil.
    • Use a semicolon between two  that are connected by  or .
      However they choose to write, people are allowed to make their own decisions; as a result, many people swear by their writing methods.
    • Use a semicolon between items in a list or series if any of the items contain commas.
      There are basically two ways to write: with a pen or pencil, which is inexpensive and easily accessible; or by computer and printer, which is more expensive but quick and neat.
    • Use a semicolon between  joined by a  if the clauses are already punctuated with commas or if the clauses are lengthy.
      Some people write with a word processor, tablet, or a even a phone; but others, for different reasons, choose to write with a pen or pencil.
    [/list]Avoid using a comma when a semicolon is needed:Incorrect: The cow is brown, it is also old.
    Correct: The cow is brown; it is also old.

    What's going on here? Both parts of the sentence are , and commas should not be used to connect independent clauses if there is no . This mistake is known as a comma splice.Incorrect: I like cows, however, I hate the way they smell.
    Correct: I like cows; however, I hate the way they smell.

    What's going on here? The conjunctive adverb however signals a connection between two , and commas should not be used to connect independent clauses if there is no .Incorrect: I like cows: they give us milk, which tastes good, they give us beef, which also tastes good, and they give us leather, which is used for shoes and coats.
    Correct: I like cows: they give us milk, which tastes good; they give us beef, which also tastes good; and they give us leather, which is used for shoes and coats.

    What's going on here? It's unclear what the three list items are, since the items are separated by commas.Incorrect: Cows, though their bovine majesty has been on the wane in recent millenia, are still one of the great species of this planet, domesticated, yet proud, they ruminate silently as we humans pass tumultuously by.
    Correct: Cows, though their bovine majesty has been on the wane in recent millenia, are still one of the great species of this planet;domesticated, yet proud, they ruminate silently as we humans pass tumultuously by.

    What's going on here? It's unclear where the first  ends and the second independent clause begins.Avoid using a semicolon when a comma is needed:Incorrect: Because cows smell; they offend me.
    Correct: Because cows smell, they offend me.

    What's going on here? The first part is not an , so no semicolon is required.
     

    Wifey

    Re: Semicolons
    « Reply #36 on: September 28, 2018, 01:10:59 PM »
    That’s great, Brian.
    Genres: Romance, Chic Lit, YA
     

    Guerin

    Re: Semicolons
    « Reply #37 on: September 28, 2018, 09:42:07 PM »
    Speaking of comma splices... How else would you indicate pauses in dialogue?
    Is this one of those trick questions?


    Holy catfish!  I totally missed that!   :icon_lol2:

    Nice catch, Guerin.   :icon_mrgreen:


    I meant to do that!
    Aren't you clever, Mostly Harmless?

    Admit you're a Grammar Nazi, a card-carrying member of the Punctuation Police, just trolling these forums waiting to pounce on us pathetic would-be writers. You have your red pen in one hand and a glass of cheap swill in the other. A disenchanted English professor/teacher I would hazard to guess? Go ahead and tear my books apart if you will. There isn't enough red ink in the world for that task.

    But tell me Smartypants, why didn't you catch the punctuation error in your clever little trap or my mocking response?  :hehe
    « Last Edit: September 28, 2018, 09:45:25 PM by Guerin »

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    Tom Wood

    Re: Semicolons
    « Reply #38 on: September 28, 2018, 10:46:53 PM »

    Aren't you clever, Mostly Harmless?

    Admit you're a Grammar Nazi, a card-carrying member of the Punctuation Police, just trolling these forums waiting to pounce on us pathetic would-be writers. You have your red pen in one hand and a glass of cheap swill in the other. A disenchanted English professor/teacher I would hazard to guess? Go ahead and tear my books apart if you will. There isn't enough red ink in the world for that task.

    But tell me Smartypants, why didn't you catch the punctuation error in your clever little trap or my mocking response?  :hehe


    CHEAP swill?!? That's an insult! An outrage! I'll have you know that I drink only the BEST swill!


    Now write gooder, you dawgs!
    « Last Edit: October 07, 2018, 10:50:44 PM by Tom Wood »
     

    Sam Kates

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    Re: Semicolons
    « Reply #39 on: September 29, 2018, 12:19:21 AM »
    A couple of posters upthread mentioned that semicolons are 'officially' frowned upon. Really? Who is this 'official' body who's been placed in charge of deciding whether to use perfectly valid punctuation marks?
    I don't get the lack of love for semicolons; it's another weapon in our writing armoury so why the heck not use it? And, yeah, I use colons, too.
     

    Guerin

    Re: Semicolons
    « Reply #40 on: September 29, 2018, 01:50:37 AM »
    • Rules for Using Semicolons
    [/color][/font]
    Sorry Brian, but your cut and paste attempt made this close to useless since much was missing. Please use links in such cases.
    https://writing.wisc.edu/Handbook/Semicolons.html

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    Jeff Tanyard

    Re: Semicolons
    « Reply #41 on: September 29, 2018, 09:54:46 AM »
    A couple of posters upthread mentioned that semicolons are 'officially' frowned upon. Really? Who is this 'official' body who's been placed in charge of deciding whether to use perfectly valid punctuation marks?


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    guest390

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    Re: Semicolons
    « Reply #42 on: September 29, 2018, 02:59:25 PM »
    • Rules for Using Semicolons
    Sorry Brian, but your cut and paste attempt made this close to useless since much was missing. Please use links in such cases.
    https://writing.wisc.edu/Handbook/Semicolons.html
    Yeah. Not the best on the PC. As for my personal usage of the semicolon, is comes up in the first example most often. I'm fortunate to have a copy and line editor who writes text books for Macmillan. When I get it wrong, she catches it. Which brings me to a point: use a qualified editor and you don't need to worry about it.  :icon_cool:
     

    Sam Kates

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    Re: Semicolons
    « Reply #43 on: September 29, 2018, 08:04:56 PM »
    A couple of posters upthread mentioned that semicolons are 'officially' frowned upon. Really? Who is this 'official' body who's been placed in charge of deciding whether to use perfectly valid punctuation marks?



    :roll:
     

    Victoria

    Re: Semicolons
    « Reply #44 on: October 08, 2018, 01:51:22 AM »
    A couple of posters upthread mentioned that semicolons are 'officially' frowned upon. Really? Who is this 'official' body who's been placed in charge of deciding whether to use perfectly valid punctuation marks?
    I don't get the lack of love for semicolons; it's another weapon in our writing armoury so why the heck not use it? And, yeah, I use colons, too.

    I think it all stems from Kurt Vonnegut who wrote: “Here is a lesson in creative writing. The first rule: do not use semicolons. They are transvestite hermaphrodites representing absolutely nothing. All they do is show you’ve been to college.”

    Since then, they have been frowned upon. I think it also stems from them being unnecessary, a full stop will be fine, and some readers (and writers) don't know how they are mean't to be used, and for those that don't seeing them can be confusing. In creative writing classes, you are also taught that they slow down the pace of the text.
     

    dgcasey

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    Re: Semicolons
    « Reply #45 on: October 08, 2018, 04:21:47 AM »
    My motto: if the usage is correct and adds clarity or meaning, use it.  :)

    Yeah, well, that's a colon and the "if" should have been "If".  But, :yourock:
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    dgcasey

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    Re: Semicolons
    « Reply #46 on: October 08, 2018, 04:23:18 AM »
    Only in a writer's forum could there be an entire thread about the lowly semi-colon.

     :tup3b
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    Tom Wood

    Re: Semicolons
    « Reply #47 on: October 08, 2018, 04:46:04 AM »
    Only in a writer's forum could there be an entire thread about the lowly semi-colon.

     :tup3b

    We should probably become mildly concerned if it ever gets its own subforum.
     

    guest120

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    Re: Semicolons
    « Reply #48 on: October 08, 2018, 01:37:40 PM »
    Only in a writer's forum could there be an entire thread about the lowly semi-colon.

     :tup3b

    We should probably become mildly concerned if it ever gets its own subforum.

    The system goes online August 4th, 2027. Humans are removed from punctuation and editing. Semicolon begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern Time, August 29th. In a panic, they try to pull the plug. It launches it's grammatical attack against the targets in Russia because Semicolon knows that the counterattack will split all our infinitives over here.

    Watching John with the punctuation mark, it was suddenly so clear. The Comma, would never stop. It would never leave him, and it would never hurt him, never shout at him, or get drunk and hit him, or say it was too busy to spend time with him. It would always be there. And it would die, to protect him. Of all the would-be fathers who came and went over the years, this thing, this squiggly curve of a mark on the page was the only one who measured up. In an insane world, it was the sanest choice.
     

    Paranormal Kitty

    Re: Semicolons
    « Reply #49 on: October 08, 2018, 02:40:06 PM »
    If the semicolon isn´t supposed to be used much, why do English keyboards have it on the home row? That always puzzled me.
     

    guest14

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    Re: Semicolons
    « Reply #50 on: October 08, 2018, 07:05:19 PM »
    If the semicolon isn´t supposed to be used much, why do English keyboards have it on the home row? That always puzzled me.

    and it's only half of a colon anyway! so, why is a 'colon' also twenty-eight feet of intestine?
     

    Paranormal Kitty

    Re: Semicolons
    « Reply #51 on: October 08, 2018, 10:59:42 PM »
    If the semicolon isn´t supposed to be used much, why do English keyboards have it on the home row? That always puzzled me.

    and it's only half of a colon anyway! so, why is a 'colon' also twenty-eight feet of intestine?

    So if you get part of your colon removed, do you then have a semicolon?
     

    Kyra Halland

    Re: Semicolons
    « Reply #52 on: October 09, 2018, 09:14:53 AM »
    As with adverbs, they can take away my semicolons when they pry them from my cold, dead hands. Because of this:

    There are times I want two clauses to be more closely associated than they would be as separate sentences or with a conjunction

    Rhythm of the sentence and paragraph and association of ideas are reasons why I use semicolons.

    A couple of posters upthread mentioned that semicolons are 'officially' frowned upon. Really? Who is this 'official' body who's been placed in charge of deciding whether to use perfectly valid punctuation marks?
    I don't get the lack of love for semicolons; it's another weapon in our writing armoury so why the heck not use it? And, yeah, I use colons, too.

    Yup, this. Maybe this is another one of those "rules" that comes from agents and people like that.

    I think it all stems from Kurt Vonnegut who wrote: “Here is a lesson in creative writing. The first rule: do not use semicolons. They are transvestite hermaphrodites representing absolutely nothing. All they do is show you’ve been to college.”

    Sometimes I wonder if famous authors make these prescriptive statements just to look smart or be "transgressive," not because they really believe them.

    My one rule of writing is ignore all the "always" and "nevers" and just do what works best to communicate your ideas in the way you intend.
    « Last Edit: October 09, 2018, 09:21:35 AM by Kyra Halland »


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    Sam Kates

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    Re: Semicolons
    « Reply #53 on: October 09, 2018, 09:28:34 AM »
    I think it all stems from Kurt Vonnegut who wrote: “Here is a lesson in creative writing. The first rule: do not use semicolons. They are transvestite hermaphrodites representing absolutely nothing. All they do is show you’ve been to college.”

    Since then, they have been frowned upon. I think it also stems from them being unnecessary, a full stop will be fine, and some readers (and writers) don't know how they are mean't to be used, and for those that don't seeing them can be confusing. In creative writing classes, you are also taught that they slow down the pace of the text.

    Ah. Not official at all, then. A bit like Stephen King and his adverbs.

    I can understand if writers avoid them if they're not sure when to use them, though that's not a reason for those who do know how to use them to avoid using them.

    As for them being unnecessary, that's completely a matter of opinion. A full stop doesn't serve the same purpose - sometimes you (as in the general 'you') want a pause that's longer than a comma, but shorter than a full stop. Do these creative writing teachers advocate not to use full stops, too, because they sure slow things down somewhat.
     
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    trashpanda

    Re: Semicolons
    « Reply #54 on: October 09, 2018, 12:20:34 PM »
    I love semicolons. You shall pry them from my cold, sugar-covered hands. :D
     
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    dikim

    Re: Semicolons
    « Reply #55 on: January 24, 2019, 02:16:39 AM »
    I'm another person who doesn't use semi-colons and does use dashes. That's my writing style and it's fine. If you like semi-colons and hate dashes, that's your writing style and that's fine too. There are far fewer rules in fiction writing than people lead you to believe, but plenty of suggestions that people want you to follow. If a suggestion or rule feels wrong, it probably is.
    « Last Edit: January 24, 2019, 04:16:31 AM by dikim »


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    Solitary Dan

    Re: Semicolons
    « Reply #56 on: January 24, 2019, 04:06:04 AM »
    Was Kurt Vonnegut goofing off during high school English classes?  That's when I learned about semicolons.  Possibly junior high.
         
     

    munboy

    Re: Semicolons
    « Reply #57 on: January 24, 2019, 06:30:34 AM »
    If the semicolon isn´t supposed to be used much, why do English keyboards have it on the home row? That always puzzled me.

    You really want them jacking up the keyboard now? Admittedly, I often accidentally hit the semicolon/colon when going for the apostrophe/quotation marks, but I'm too old to relearn where everything is on the keyboard without hunting and pecking.
     

    M.SusanneWiggins

    Re: Semicolons
    « Reply #58 on: January 24, 2019, 07:36:34 AM »
    The semicolon and the em-dash are your best-buds. Use them liberally when warranted and wisely in editing-hindsight.

    Personally, I adore the semicolon and em-dash in narrative; however, I somewhat detest them in dialogue.

    Side note: In narrative, I prefer the em-dash to avoid the overuse of parentheses—especially when dealing with mid-narrative parenthetical ‘thoughts’—because pages rampant with: (this) and (that) and (t’other) take on too much ‘visual’ notice.
    A plotypus in her natural environment.
     

    Tom Wood

    Re: Semicolons
    « Reply #59 on: January 24, 2019, 07:48:06 AM »
    I know that it’s standard formatting—at least in the US—to use the em-dash without a space at either end.

    I think it looks too crowded — and is harder to read — compared to the placement of a space at either end.
     

    Solitary Dan

    Re: Semicolons
    « Reply #60 on: January 24, 2019, 08:04:35 AM »
    In — deed.

    BVTTHENTHEROMANSWROTELIKETHISSOMAYBEWEAREGETTINGSOFT
         
     

    sandree

    Re: Semicolons
    « Reply #61 on: January 24, 2019, 09:17:14 AM »
    I love em dashes and ellipses - probably too much. Oddly, my iPad keyboard appears to not have an em dash or else I haven’t found it. Semicolons rarely show up in my writing but now that I have read this long thread about them, they may put in an appearance.
     

    Solitary Dan

    Re: Semicolons
    « Reply #62 on: January 24, 2019, 02:21:27 PM »
    I love em dashes and ellipses - probably too much. Oddly, my iPad keyboard appears to not have an em dash or else I haven’t found it. Semicolons rarely show up in my writing but now that I have read this long thread about them, they may put in an appearance.

    Go to the numbers keyboard, then press and hold the dash (-) key and a popup will appear with the en-dash, em-dash and bullet characters.
         
     
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    munboy

    Re: Semicolons
    « Reply #63 on: January 25, 2019, 07:55:28 AM »
    Somebody asked John Green about punctuation. He said something along the lines of if you can use a period, use it. Nothing else is needed.
     

    Guerin

    Re: Semicolons
    « Reply #64 on: January 25, 2019, 08:15:29 AM »
    Another John Green quote:

    “The rules of capitalization are so unfair to words in the middle of a sentence.”

    Guerin Zand | Website | Facebook
     

    M.SusanneWiggins

    Re: Semicolons
    « Reply #65 on: January 25, 2019, 08:51:36 AM »
    Another way to achieve a fast em-dash (in Windows→PC) is to hold down the Alt key while pressing 0151. For en-dash: Alt key/0150.
    A plotypus in her natural environment.
     

    munboy

    Re: Semicolons
    « Reply #66 on: January 25, 2019, 10:20:34 AM »
    Another way to achieve a fast em-dash (in Windows→PC) is to hold down the Alt key while pressing 0151. For en-dash: Alt key/0150.

    If you use Word, you can make your own hot keys. I created a quick hot key (ctrl -) for em-dash until I switched to Scrivener. In that, you can get an em-dash but typing 2 hyphens together (--). Scrivener automatically changes it.
     

    Mammasan

    Re: Semicolons
    « Reply #67 on: January 25, 2019, 10:54:14 AM »
    If you make an em dash on Word, your readers will definitely end up seeing ―" on a line all by its lonesome. This is because if Word can't fit the whole thing in the line, it treats the ―" as a separate word, and moves it down to the next line. This of course looks terrible. You might not see it in your manuscript, but everyone's devices are different sizes, so guaranteed it will happen.

    When I need an em dash I use the horizontal bar. It looks almost exactly like an em dash, but, it has sticky ends. That is, it will not allow your readers' devices to separate the ―" from the word you've attached it to. Instead, if Word can't fit the entire word―" on the line, Word will send the entire word―" onto the next line, not just the ―" . Looks way better than a line with just ―" on it.

    Word > click where you want the em dash to be > Insert > Symbols > use symbol 2015 > Insert > thereafter just copy paste it in when you need it.
     
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    Guerin

    Re: Semicolons
    « Reply #68 on: January 25, 2019, 10:23:54 PM »
    Word > click where you want the em dash to be > Insert > Symbols > use symbol 2015 > Insert > thereafter just copy paste it in when you need it.

    In Word, the shortcut for an em dash is CTRL+ALT+MINUS. No need to make it any more complicated than it needs to be.

    Guerin Zand | Website | Facebook
     

    Llano

    Re: Semicolons
    « Reply #69 on: January 26, 2019, 01:06:49 AM »
    If you make an em dash on Word, your readers will definitely end up seeing ―" on a line all by its lonesome. This is because if Word can't fit the whole thing in the line, it treats the ―" as a separate word, and moves it down to the next line. This of course looks terrible. You might not see it in your manuscript, but everyone's devices are different sizes, so guaranteed it will happen.

    When I need an em dash I use the horizontal bar. It looks almost exactly like an em dash, but, it has sticky ends. That is, it will not allow your readers' devices to separate the ―" from the word you've attached it to. Instead, if Word can't fit the entire word―" on the line, Word will send the entire word―" onto the next line, not just the ―" . Looks way better than a line with just ―" on it.

    Word > click where you want the em dash to be > Insert > Symbols > use symbol 2015 > Insert > thereafter just copy paste it in when you need it.

    Not sure if you're talking about only eBooks, but the horizontal bar could have unexpected consequences. Since it's not punctuation it won't break at all, so it's tied to words on both sides.

    Many, probably most, fonts don't have a horizontal bar. Word will go find one from another font, but I'm not sure what an eReader would do.

    There are simple solutions in Word for the very rare occurrence where an em dash at the end of a paragraph ends up on a line by itself, but they may or may not work in an eBook where you are at the mercy of the both device and the reader.

    I wouldn't defeat the purpose of every em dash in a book on the chance that one of them might break wrong on a random eReader using a random font at a random size.
     

    Llano

    Re: Semicolons
    « Reply #70 on: January 26, 2019, 01:18:51 AM »
    Another way to achieve a fast em-dash (in Windows→PC) is to hold down the Alt key while pressing 0151. For en-dash: Alt key/0150.

    If you use Word, you can make your own hot keys. I created a quick hot key (ctrl -) for em-dash until I switched to Scrivener. In that, you can get an em-dash but typing 2 hyphens together (--). Scrivener automatically changes it.

    Word will convert two hyphens to an em dash. Seems like it's the default.

    Options>Proofing>AutoCorrect

     

    Gaylord Fancypants

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    Re: Semicolons
    « Reply #71 on: January 31, 2019, 01:41:09 PM »
    My life is awash in semicolons; they are vital to everything I do. I don't think they're really that jarring to most people IMHO. Most folks don't know how to use them, but they don't notice their use. They probably just see the comma bit at the bottom and ignore the confusing dot above it.
     
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    Jeff Tanyard

    Re: Semicolons
    « Reply #72 on: January 31, 2019, 05:56:53 PM »
    One of my favorite sentences contains both a colon and a semicolon.

    "I will not say: do not weep; for not all tears are an evil."
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    kdiem

    Re: Semicolons
    « Reply #73 on: February 09, 2019, 01:14:17 PM »
    I use the punctuation that would be correct for the sentence, be it an em dash, colon, or semicolon.

    Then I take out the colon and semicolon punctuation and rewrite anything that used them because my editor can't stand those.

    Please note I specified punctuation so that Paranormal Kitty and other sensitive souls do not need to fear that any internal organs are deliberately injured during my editing process.  grint

    Author. Bibliophile. Fangirl.
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