Author Topic: Really?  (Read 2765 times)

R. C.

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Really?
« on: July 05, 2024, 12:46:55 AM »
Friends,

With the constantly rising cost of getting a click, I searched for “how much self-published authors spend on advertising.” Too many poorly constructed articles later, I landed on this: The Book Designer - How Much Does It Cost to Self-Publish a Book? Your 2024 Guide

Of course, I had to do the math on page one, and for editing only, the range is: $7,200 - $18,600. This means I am in for my time and $7,200 BEFORE marketing!

Then I read the article. Here is a quick summary:

Cover costs: Pre-made: $50–$100, Designed using stock photographs: $125–$400, Custom designed: $500–$1,200+

Formatting: “it pays to have a professional do it” - “use software specifically designed for formatting books...for less than a couple hundred.”

Printing: “you want to stick with print on demand services”

Distribution: “IngramSpark charges a $49-per-title setup fee for print books (although they regularly run promotions where they’ll do setup for free), and then wholesale distribution is free.”

Paid Promotion and Advertising: “how much you’re willing to spend each month is entirely up to you.”

This is a direct quote: “If you’re spending more on ads than you’re making on sales, then advertising might not be the right medium for promoting your book.”

“Expenses required to write, publish, and promote books can get out of hand quickly if not properly managed, so it’s beneficial to take time early in the process to prepare a budget.”

I followed the embedded link to: Book Promotion: Do This, Not That – January 2018 Arg, nothing new to report.

Of course, the emphasis above is mine. Which leads me to this question: Do the costs listed in the article seem reasonable?

R.C.
 
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Hopscotch

Re: Really?
« Reply #1 on: July 05, 2024, 12:56:09 AM »
Do the costs listed in the article seem reasonable?

Nope, and that's why we have WS - to share a better (and less :hehe) approach
. .

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alhawke

Re: Really?
« Reply #2 on: July 05, 2024, 01:47:50 AM »
Of course, I had to do the math on page one, and for editing only, the range is: $7,200 - $18,600. This means I am in for my time and $7,200 BEFORE marketing!
No way. The average book sells 150 copies. This is poor budgeting to the extreme.
Cover costs: Pre-made: $50–$100, Designed using stock photographs: $125–$400, Custom designed: $500–$1,200+
The lowest costs here are appropriate. I've spent at the high end for painted covers but, unfortunately, a painted cover doesn't budget well.
Formatting: “it pays to have a professional do it” - “use software specifically designed for formatting books...for less than a couple hundred.”
Nope. A one time purchase of Vellum will do just as well as "professional editing".
Printing: “you want to stick with print on demand services”
Distribution: “IngramSpark charges a $49-per-title setup fee for print books (although they regularly run promotions where they’ll do setup for free), and then wholesale distribution is free.”
POD is right but everything else is wrong. This is old news. Ingram has no fee anymore. As far as ebooks, never publish through Ingram.
This is a direct quote: “If you’re spending more on ads than you’re making on sales, then advertising might not be the right medium for promoting your book.”
Advertising rarely ever pays back--in every medium, not just publishing. You're advertising your brand, not your particular book. That's why writers have to write so many books these days.

Yeah, I disagree with a lot in this article. This is a real tough industry where so many writer want to fulfill their dream. If publishing just one book is a dream, than budgeting isn't so important. If it's a career, the writer has to budget. And create many works. Or somehow cleverly tap into the market with that one amazing stellar book--a tougher sell.

The article mentioned bookkeeping and budgeting. This one, I totally agree with. I've learned that so much of revenue stems from not only how many books purchased but how much I spent creating the book.
Thanks for bringing up the article, R.C.! It's pretty discouraging to a new writer. I remember seeing costs quoted like this and scaring me when I started. Audiobooks have outlandish price ranges quoted on the internet too.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2024, 01:59:28 AM by alhawke »
 
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Bill Hiatt

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Re: Really?
« Reply #3 on: July 05, 2024, 11:48:51 PM »
Yeah, Vellum will do just as well as a professional formatter if you aren't really picky about wanting some exact thing that Vellum isn't set up for. Font choices and layout options are limited. But I think most people could find something that looked good to them within Vellum's available choices.

Even though Vellum is a small company, it publishes frequent updates and fixes reported bugs relatively quickly. It was fiction-centric but is now adding options for things like footnotes and appendices that might be necessary in nonfiction. It's also made it easier to import back matter from one project to another.

Covers do cost. Hence the temptation of AI. But I'm sticking with my human designer until AI's ethical conundrums are worked out ( or until I die, whichever comes first).

Good professional editors also cost, but if you find a good editor, it's probably a worthwhile expenditure.

Advertising is tough. You need something to get your book noticed, but AMS ads, which seem like the obvious choice, don't have good ROI. Just for fun, I started looking at services that manage ads for you. The cheapest I could find was $900 a month (not counting the cost of the ads). The company is not book-centric, and I think you need a minimum ad spend. The company will keep you within your ACOS targets by constantly adjusting your ads, but I suspect getting ACOS as low as we'd like might result in ads that don't sell books and/or ads Amazon cancels as "not relevant" because they don't get enough clicks.

Related observation: I've been experimenting and may have discovered that ads keyed to similar products work better than ads keyed to search keywords, but I'm still in early stages. Keyword ads also need to stick to exact and phrase. General targeting tends to be a financial sinkhole, even if you check every day and negative target every inappropriate search.

Alternatives to advertising:
Bookfunnel promos do move books, depending to some extent on how well your books fit the promo theme and whether or not you discount. Conversion rate (clicks to sales) is about 2-5% on full price, 5-15% on discounted (though with the right promo theme and presumably other authors with big mailing lists involved, I've seen as high as 58%. And since there's no extra costs (beyond basic fee) for entering promos or per click, it's much easier to get a positive ROI.
Substack does move books, and using it is free. Check the Substack threads for considerable amounts of detail. Let's just say it does take time (to create short pieces to post and to interact) to build enough of a presence, but I have moved at least as many books as I have with AMS. It's hard to get exact numbers, but I've seen nice jumps in books that don't normally sell much, as well as someone telling me they've bought and having a sale pop up. The effect could be bigger than I'm aware of. 


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alhawke

Re: Really?
« Reply #4 on: July 06, 2024, 12:44:25 AM »
Just for fun, I started looking at services that manage ads for you. The cheapest I could find was $900 a month (not counting the cost of the ads). 
I'd be cautious of outsourcing ads. I've tried them and have had no luck selling more than my own ads. In fact, my BookBub ads do better. One didn't sell any books after I spent $600. I sell daily with BookBub. Unfortunately, as you're seeing, it's very expensive to try these out.

WrittenWord Media has there Reader Reach service. I've had it for book launches. It's no where near as effective as their standard promo services.
 
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PJ Post

Re: Really?
« Reply #5 on: July 06, 2024, 01:16:04 AM »
You know I'm going to say they're doing it wrong. Branding and social media, apart from our time, are pretty close to free.

And between free Grammarly, Word and your chatbot du jour, you should be able to get a nice edit. Have the chatbot summarize passages to make sure your themes are resonating and clear. Do character studies, lots of tools to help us publish pro work. DIY covers aren't that tough either, between AI images and the free or dirt cheap graphics programs out there, there's just no reason to pay that much anymore. It's not like we don't have a ton of examples to emulate.

I think a lot of self-publishers are still trying to follow the traditional marketing path (perhaps they're seeking validation) even though it hasn't really worked in years. The internet has moved on.
 
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TimothyEllis

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Re: Really?
« Reply #6 on: July 06, 2024, 10:18:07 AM »
I think a lot of self-publishers are still trying to follow the traditional marketing path (perhaps they're seeking validation) even though it hasn't really worked in years. The internet has moved on.

That may be true.

I've been seeing one new author getting her first book ready to publish, and everything she's done has raised my eyebrows and made me think she's following some Trad how to guide. I'd have had her book out a year ago. She's still in group crit chapter sessions.

She recently refused to believe there were 6 and 7 figure Indie authors, which is what I get all the time from Trad authors.
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Bill Hiatt

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Re: Really?
« Reply #7 on: July 06, 2024, 11:42:08 AM »
You know I'm going to say they're doing it wrong. Branding and social media, apart from our time, are pretty close to free.

And between free Grammarly, Word and your chatbot du jour, you should be able to get a nice edit. Have the chatbot summarize passages to make sure your themes are resonating and clear. Do character studies, lots of tools to help us publish pro work. DIY covers aren't that tough either, between AI images and the free or dirt cheap graphics programs out there, there's just no reason to pay that much anymore. It's not like we don't have a ton of examples to emulate.

I think a lot of self-publishers are still trying to follow the traditional marketing path (perhaps they're seeking validation) even though it hasn't really worked in years. The internet has moved on.
Social media is pretty much free--but in that case, you get what you pay for. Most of them have clogged the channels with algorithms designed to force you to spend money on ads if you want to have any real reach.

Despite my 56,000 followers on FB, I could literally nuke every one of my social media accounts tomorrow and not see any significant effect at all. Long ago, with much fewer followers, that wouldn't have been true. But it is pretty much true now.

As for editing, I've used Grammarly. I've used Pro Writing Aid. Not any more. Aside from the enormous number of false positives that I have to grind my way through, I'm not using any AI-connected tool if the developers didn't compensate people for the training data. Anyway, I've seen nothing to convince me that AI does as well as a human editor. And as for using a chatbot, same problem. Remember, AI is only looking for ways to reproduce patterns, as you yourself have pointed out. It doesn't truly understand the material.

That's also my response to creating covers with AI. As I've mentioned, I have experimented with creating images using Shutterstock AI (which does compensate artists for the use of their work). And I have gotten some beautiful images, but the enormous number of misfires reinforce my point that AI is moving data around without understanding it. Anyway, I use it only for situations in which I wouldn't hire an artist, anyway. At most, I'd use a stock photo under the same plan I use for AI.

Frankly, putting editors and artists out of business is not in our long-term best interest. It's not even really in AI's best interest. As fresh training data diminishes, the AI becomes worse, not better. But if we're not careful, it will be the only alternative we have. It'll be about that time that corporate America starts charging us ridiculous rates for  the use of AI. Or maybe the high energy demands of Ai will force regulation, even rationing.

As nice as it would be if everything were free, we're not there yet. The most we can get is temporarily free but with long-term costs


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LilyBLily

Re: Really?
« Reply #8 on: July 06, 2024, 02:33:19 PM »
Most of us can cut some costs, depending on our various capabilities and tolerances, but we'll each choose different areas. Some of us can get free editing or do it well ourselves. Others can design great covers. Others are ace at formatting. Others thrive in critique groups, while still others are dynamite at writing newsletters and mobilizing street teams.

And so on. There are many things we can do free or inexpensively and that don't feel like horrid drudgery. We simply have to figure out what those things are and avoid wasting our time and effort and money on the rest.


 
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PJ Post

Re: Really?
« Reply #9 on: July 07, 2024, 01:16:17 AM »
AI is no more evil than any other aspect of late stage capitalism. For example, no one seems to have a problem buying sneakers or smart phones (google it). The Future is inevitable. It's like trying to buy American - we don't make anything anymore. And since my career is literally one of the industries being AI'ed away, I think my opinion is pretty valid on the subject.

And the AI tools we have are truly next level. Of course, like anything else, we have to learn how to use them to get the best results.
 

TimothyEllis

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Re: Really?
« Reply #10 on: July 07, 2024, 01:17:36 AM »
And since my career is literally one of the industries being AI'ed away

What's your career?
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PJ Post

Re: Really?
« Reply #11 on: July 07, 2024, 01:43:48 AM »
Design
 

TimothyEllis

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Re: Really?
« Reply #12 on: July 07, 2024, 01:47:31 AM »
Genres: Space Opera/Fantasy/Cyberpunk, with elements of LitRPG and GameLit, with a touch of the Supernatural. Also Spiritual and Games.



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PJ Post

Re: Really?
« Reply #13 on: July 07, 2024, 03:57:47 AM »
Does it matter?

AI is displacing everything from Architecture to Interior Design to Web Design to Graphic Design to Branding to Illustration to Presentations to Wedding Planning and napkin patterns. No, AI can't compete with the best in the field, but the average client doesn't need the best - they just need good enough, which turns out to be a shockingly low bar.
 
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TimothyEllis

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Re: Really?
« Reply #14 on: July 07, 2024, 11:56:33 AM »
Does it matter?

Yeah, it does. You're making a sweeping statement with no context otherwise.

Quote
AI is displacing everything from Architecture to Interior Design to Web Design to Graphic Design to Branding to Illustration to Presentations to Wedding Planning and napkin patterns. No, AI can't compete with the best in the field, but the average client doesn't need the best - they just need good enough, which turns out to be a shockingly low bar.

Architecture  and interior design- I would never ever in a million years buy a Bot designed house, or let one design an interior for me. Not happening.

Web design has always been too expensive and delivered too little. It probably had an expiry date from the start.

Illustration - not until copyright laws change.

Wedding planning? Again, that's a job which probably had a short half life anyway. Most people can't afford them.

Napkin patterns? Who the hell does customized napkins? Who even uses them anymore?

Context matters.
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Post-Crisis D

Re: Really?
« Reply #15 on: July 07, 2024, 12:29:00 PM »
The one thing I have noticed is that there are groups of people that seem to feel other groups of people (i.e., people that aren't them) are useless and need to go away.  Those former groups of people seem to be the ones in favor of everything-AI.  Their PR is that everything-AI is for the benefit of everyone, yay, and balloons and unicorn sparkles for everyone!  But, if history is any guide, and it usually is, those groups of people will probably work to find a way to eliminate those other groups of people they deem useless and need to be done away with.  In the old days, they'd just up and find ways to kill them quickly.  Now, maybe they are more methodical.  You know, give them free stuff.  Promise them a guaranteed income and free stuff.  Free health care, yay!  Free transportation, yay!  Free food, yay!  Free whatever, yay!  And, then you get people dependent.  Then you ration.  Then maybe put stuff in their food and medicines that shorten their lifespans.  If anyone notices, call them nutty conspiracy theorists.  But, it's all good and they get everything free and they don't have to work anymore.  Then, if a neighboring town and all its people kind of just goes away, no, never happened.  That town never existed.  An Internet search confirms it.  You must be thinking of some other town.  Until the day comes when you never existed.

But, you know, yay for AI!
Mulder: "If you're distracted by fear of those around you, it keeps you from seeing the actions of those above."
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Bill Hiatt

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Re: Really?
« Reply #16 on: July 07, 2024, 11:49:20 PM »
My concerns are a little less dystopian than that. I don't see AI as a plot to eliminate certain people. The movement toward AI is more like not giving a damn what happens to anyone else.

AI faces significant obstacles. Whether or not they can be overcome is a subject we can debate ad nauseum--and already have. Yet here we are again--in a thread that wasn't about AI in the first place.

So why not repeat the things I and others have already said?

Obstacles:
Power consumption. AI is an absolute power hog. A number of estimates suggest that AI's continuing expansion will result in collapsing power grids sooner rather than later. At least in the US, operations to expand our energy output are hampered by political differences and perceptions of reality. We may be faced with either having to curtail the use of AI or having to ration power for everything. AI can undeniably do a lot of useful things. Maybe we should save it for synthesizing medical data to cure cancer and let humans continue to design our book covers and narrate our audio books. Just a thought.

Water consumption. AI pushes up server cooling requirements. With droughts becoming a more common phenomenon, use of water for server cooling becomes a real issue.

Copyright. AI stretches the concept of fair use to the limit--and well beyond, in my opinion. Courts may or may not agree. There are legal arguments on both sides. Existing laws were clearly not designed to deal with AI training, so such a use isn't expressly prohibited. On the other hand, such usage is nothing like any other established application of fair use. I don't see Congress acting in the near future. EU regulators might be a better bet. But collectively, there are enough potential legal entanglements to make AI's future uncertain.

AI food shortage. Even AI developers acknowledge that AI needs a constant diet of new IP to stay current and refine its capabilities. That's also probably why Sam Altman was looking for another billion in investment. But here's the thing. Developers also acknowledge that AI feeding on its own output will steadily degrade in quality. It needs new human input. But what happens when creative applications are no longer financially viable for humans, and they cease producing public output? AI starves. What happens if regulators leave the previous training alone but ban any new use of the IP of others without consent and compensation? AI starves.

(Documentation can be found in the earlier threads.)

My own experience with Shutterstock AI makes me doubt AI is any kind of next level wonderful. In saying that, I acknowledge that Shutterstock, which voluntarily compensates artists and limits its training data to those artists it distributes (and is thus able to compensate) may be more limited, though I've heard just recently similar complaints about Midjourney, and we've also seen some freakish examples of what AI produces.

As I've mentioned elsewhere, I can get some beautiful images. No question. But I may have to generate hundreds to get a viable one. The output varies from perfect fulfillment of the prompt to ignoring part of the prompt to not seeming to understand what it's doing at all. Occasionally, I have to abandon a concept completely and try something else because AI outright chokes on it and can't produce a single image that fits, no matter what I do. (Luckily, Shutterstock only charges the ones I actually download against my image credits. If it counted every image I generated--or even 25% of them, since AI generates four at a time--it would quickly become impractical.)

(Examples can be found in earlier threads.)

So for now, I use the work of human photographers for any application where I can find a photo that works. And if anything, I'm ordering more from my cover designer. (The places I use Shutterstock AI are places I wouldn't have hired an artist for, anyway.)   


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PJ Post

Re: Really?
« Reply #17 on: July 08, 2024, 01:03:19 AM »
But, you know, yay for AI!

It's not a matter of liking it, it's the Future. It's inevitable. It is what it is. We can get in front of it and leverage it - or we can get run over.


The movement toward AI is more like not giving a damn what happens to anyone else.

Welcome to capitalism. Industry has never given a damn what happens to anyone else - like ever. Full stop. Why should the latest technology be any different?

I'll start my argument with this...





Quote
AI faces significant obstacles. Whether or not they can be overcome is a subject we can debate ad nauseum--and already have. Yet here we are again--in a thread that wasn't about AI in the first place.

So why not repeat the things I and others have already said?

We don't have to rehash AI, but it's silly to assume it's not going be the future. Maybe this year, maybe in a few decades, but the obstacles will be overcome. So, we can try to shape AI's application, maybe guide it, certainly figure out how to benefit from it; but other humans are going to use it to put everyone else out of business in the most Draconian and expedient way possible - because that's capitalism, too.

___

AI, as a tool, is relevant to the thread because it can greatly reduce the cost of producing a professional book.

___

Also, when it comes to copyright, we may have options...


« Last Edit: July 08, 2024, 01:07:23 AM by PJ Post »
 

TimothyEllis

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Re: Really?
« Reply #18 on: July 08, 2024, 01:13:34 AM »
AI, as a tool, is relevant to the thread because it can greatly reduce the cost of producing a professional book.

 :icon_rofl:

Sorry, had to laugh.

You can learn to edit to a high standard. You can learn to proof to a high standard. You can learn to do good covers.

That's how you reduce the cost of producing books.

AI is not needed in any of that.

The only cost I've had in recent times was the 2 dragon images I bought the licenses for 3 series ago. That's it in the last 18 books. And actually, it's been more than 30 since I paid for a cover, and that got reused for the 2nd book in the pair.

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alhawke

Re: Really?
« Reply #19 on: July 08, 2024, 01:50:25 AM »

The AI is Microsoft's VASA-1.
Leonardo Da Vinci is rolling in his grave... But it was pretty entertaining.  :icon_rofl:
 
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R. C.

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Re: Really?
« Reply #20 on: July 08, 2024, 01:58:29 AM »
Does every thread eventually turn into a discussion about the relative merits of AI?  Just asking...

R.C.

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Re: Really?
« Reply #21 on: July 08, 2024, 02:00:47 AM »
Does every thread eventually turn into a discussion about the relative merits of AI?  Just asking...

Only when you or someone else pushes them.
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PJ Post

Re: Really?
« Reply #22 on: July 08, 2024, 02:32:12 AM »
Does every thread eventually turn into a discussion about the relative merits of AI?  Just asking...

AI is the current shiny thing - like MS Word used to be, or Canva or Photoshop or Dragon Speaking. I'm sure the button was all the rage once-upon-a.

They're just tools.

Also, since AI is an incredibly powerful productivity tool for Creatives and Content creators - and it only keeps getting better - it's going to keep coming up.

___

The AI debate reminds me of the vinyl records vs digital music argument. Sure, vinyl may sound better to some people's ear, but the world of commerce embraced digital - so here we are.
 
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TimothyEllis

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Re: Really?
« Reply #23 on: July 08, 2024, 03:07:01 AM »
Also, since AI is an incredibly powerful productivity tool for Creatives and Content creators

Content creators, yes.

Creatives, no.

And no, I don't consider content creators to be creatives in this context. And I do consider Bot content to be the lowest form of content. Nothing at all for people be proud of doing.

You're also flogging a dead horse on this.
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Post-Crisis D

Re: Really?
« Reply #24 on: July 08, 2024, 07:54:45 AM »
I remember plenty of things that were going to be The Future™ that still haven't happened after 10, 20, 30, 40, 50, etc. years.  And some look more likely than not to never materialize.

Still uncertain is how courts may rule.  Also, however courts rule, legislation may come out that changes things as well.  It is far from a given that AI, at least in regards to faux-creating stuff, will be the future of "creativity."  Plus, as Bill Hiatt pointed out, if AI ends up feeding into itself, quality is going to degrade.  That means AI will require human creativity but if AI effectively kills human creativity, that can be self-defeating.

Consider writing exercises in school where you had to write an essay on a topic or book report or whatever.  How many students will now use AI to do that, as students in the past may have used money or physical intimidation to write their stuff for them.  One might argue these students are clever for using tools to finish their assignments more efficiently.  But, the point is that the student learns by reading and writing, not that they learn methods to cheat.

The AI-is-a-tool argument is akin to saying it's okay to cheat.  We're not talking about using a tool to find errors or suggest corrections for unclear sentences and so on.  We're talking about a "tool" that can write (or eventually write) your entire novel for you.

Of course, if your only interest is churning out books to sell, that may be fine for you.  But, if you're a real writer that has stories to tell, that's not to your benefit.  That's not to your readers' benefit.  A novel is an expression of someone's creative ideas.  There is a creative spirit there that is absent in something spit out by a machine.

And you can come up with ridiculous ideas like doing away with copyright and charging a media consumption tax or whatever and pretending creative people are somehow going to benefit from that, but you could also sit back and realize that while humanity will benefit if AI finds cures for cancer and solutions to perplexing problems, it does not benefit humanity to outsource human expression and creativity to a machine.

And, if people figure that out, there is always the possibility that legislation will come about that will either put a stop to it or put restrictions on it that keep human creatives on top.
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Jeff Tanyard

Re: Really?
« Reply #25 on: July 08, 2024, 12:57:58 PM »
I remember plenty of things that were going to be The Future™ that still haven't happened after 10, 20, 30, 40, 50, etc. years.  And some look more likely than not to never materialize.


Remember the Segway?  When it first came out, the buzz around it was that it would revolutionize the way we all got around.  City planners would redesign urban areas around the Segway, etc.  It was going to be the biggest new invention of our lives.

That didn't happen.  It turned out the Segway was just a nifty toy for well-to-do people, a sort of "solution in search of a problem" rather than a complete game-changer for the whole society. 

I think there's a fair chance--maybe not a likelihood, but at least a non-trivial chance--of A.I. turning out the same way.


Quote
Consider writing exercises in school where you had to write an essay on a topic or book report or whatever.  How many students will now use AI to do that, as students in the past may have used money or physical intimidation to write their stuff for them.  One might argue these students are clever for using tools to finish their assignments more efficiently.  But, the point is that the student learns by reading and writing, not that they learn methods to cheat.

The AI-is-a-tool argument is akin to saying it's okay to cheat.  We're not talking about using a tool to find errors or suggest corrections for unclear sentences and so on.  We're talking about a "tool" that can write (or eventually write) your entire novel for you.


Humans tend to follow the path of least resistance.  The more stuff A.I.--or any type of machine, frankly--does for us, the less we will do for ourselves.  In time, our ability to do things will atrophy and shrink.  We will eventually reach a point where we no longer know how to do anything, including maintenance on the machines, and that's when everything breaks.

E.M. Forster wrote a short story about this back in 1909.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Machine_Stops

If anyone hasn't read it yet, you can read the whole short story here:

https://www.cs.ucdavis.edu/~koehl/Teaching/ECS188/PDF_files/Machine_stops.pdf
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PJ Post

Re: Really?
« Reply #26 on: July 08, 2024, 10:05:16 PM »
I remember plenty of things that were going to be The Future™...

This is a stale argument.

They said the same things about the camera and the handheld calculator. Was there ever a time when people thought Oil was going to be a passing fad, or cars, or plastics? Was Algebra considered silly? I mean, what's a 'zero', amirite? The Earth, around the Sun? Crazy talk! Organ transplants?!?!

Technology always evolves and always remains, even if it doesn't have an immediate place in the market, until a new generations finds a use for it.

___

A few things to point out though:

1. I have never recommended that we use AI to write our books. It rather defeats the whole point for me. I have no interest in the commodity bin. I advocate exploring AI for all of the productivity aspects and work flow. And I think I've been pretty clear on the subject.

2. Again, it's not about how we feel about AI one way or the other. It's here to stay. As I said from the git-go, there's just too much money in it, both as investment and cost savings. And to whatever level AI evolves to or is allowed to evolve to, the humans that use it will out-compete the ones who don't. It's as simple as that.

3. The copyright tax thing was a different perspective. Our current Copyright system is woefully inadequate and structured to protect corporations, not Creatives. It's broken. And I believe resolution comes through discussion and analysis, which means entertaining new ideas, even if they sound bat-sh*t crazy.
 

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Re: Really?
« Reply #27 on: July 09, 2024, 01:21:38 AM »
Let's just ignore the energy and water constraints. Let's just ignore the fact that AI needs a constant diet of new, human-generated material that will be harder and harder to find as human creatives are driven from the marketplace. Let's ignore all those things in the name of maintaining a consistent narrative about AI's inevitable dominance. Let's just assume (without any evidence) that all of those obstacles can be overcome.

I think AI will continue to exist. I think it has an important role to play in some areas, like data analysis. I think it can and should be kept out of creative endeavors. It should be possible to change copyright laws to eliminate AI training without consent and compensation as fair use. Those creative applications might still continue, but they're going to be more expensive, and profits will be more evenly distributed. That alone will make it look less new and shiny to corporate America.

If that isn't enough to maintain some kind of reasonable balance, then we develop on AI tax. (Some years ago, Elon Musk, of all people, suggested a tax on any machine that replaces a human being. The general idea isn't new.)

Quote
1. I have never recommended that we use AI to write our books. It rather defeats the whole point for me. I have no interest in the commodity bin. I advocate exploring AI for all of the productivity aspects and work flow. And I think I've been pretty clear on the subject.
Yes, in fairness, you are absolutely correct. You have always been clear about that. And if AI were designed ethically, I'd have no problem using it to improve workflow. But if capitalism is, as you suggest, hell bent on doing whatever makes the most money, then there's no way AI can be constrained to use as a tool rather than a replacement without considerable systemic change. Given that you also regard systemic change as impossible, your advocacy of AI as a tool doesn't really make sense. In the narrative you've created, it's never going to remain just that. And if, as you've also suggested, human authors will cater mostly to a niche audience that insists on human creatives, then I'm going to reiterate that most of us might as well give up now. The small number of authors who will survive in that environment will be the big-name trad authors. The rest of us are just rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic. If one accepts all of those assumptions, our downfall is as inevitable as the rise of AI.

I prefer to leave some room for optimism. Maybe I'll be proved wrong. Maybe not. Either way, I'm not feeding the beast that could devour me later on.


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Re: Really?
« Reply #28 on: July 09, 2024, 01:28:15 AM »
The small number of authors who will survive in that environment will be the big-name trad authors.

It will be the authors with books consistently in the top 500,000 ranks on Amazon. And the equivalent on the other sites.

I've no idea how many that will be though.

But it certainly won't be all Trad authors.

And if it comes to pass that Bots start selling books, most Trad authors will be up sh*t creek as well.

It could in fact break the Trad publishers once and for all.
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Re: Really?
« Reply #29 on: July 09, 2024, 01:37:45 AM »
Yes, it's probably better to say the most successful authors. That said, it's easier to be a household name as a top selling trad than as a top selling indie.

In the quoted statement, I was assuming for the sake of argument that, as PJ has suggested earlier, human authors will serve a niche that demands human authors. That would be analogous to people who insist on hand-crafted furniture, bespoke suits, etc. Of course, there are other possible outcomes, but that one is at least possible.


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Re: Really?
« Reply #30 on: July 09, 2024, 01:42:08 AM »
Anyone who has an existing fan base will presumably keep that fan base.

Those keeping their fans happy, shouldn't see too many effects.

The biggest danger I see is Bot books becoming a standard 99c, and destroying the price structure in place now.

But that might be viewed as a quality indicator as well, and not happen. KU views 99c like that a lot of the time. Cheap is crap quality mentality.
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PJ Post

Re: Really?
« Reply #31 on: July 09, 2024, 11:57:09 AM »
The small number of authors who will survive in that environment will be the big-name trad authors.

Still nope.

The authors that survive will be the ones with something to say - assuming they can find their audience. But even then, we're looking at a boat-load of writers. Can they sustain a career? Maybe. Will they get rich? Probably not. I think those days are long gone for most Creatives.
 

Post-Crisis D

Re: Really?
« Reply #32 on: July 09, 2024, 12:39:53 PM »
I wondered what AI "thought" about the topic.

Question: Will AI replace human creativity?

ChatGPT:
Quote
AI is unlikely to replace human creativity entirely. While artificial intelligence systems have demonstrated impressive capabilities in various creative tasks such as generating art, music, poetry, and even writing stories, there are several aspects of creativity that remain distinctly human and challenging for AI to fully replicate:

  • Originality and Novelty: Human creativity often involves generating novel ideas and concepts that break away from established patterns or conventions. AI, while proficient at analyzing existing data and patterns, struggles with true originality and generating entirely new ideas that transcend existing frameworks.
  • Emotional and Contextual Understanding: Creativity often involves understanding and expressing complex emotions, cultural nuances, and contextual relevance. AI lacks genuine emotional experiences and struggles to comprehend and integrate these elements into creative outputs in a way that resonates authentically with human audiences.
  • Intuition and Insight: Human creativity often relies on intuitive leaps, insights, and serendipitous connections between disparate ideas or concepts. While AI can analyze vast amounts of data and identify correlations, it typically lacks the intuition and subtle understanding that humans bring to creative processes.
  • Personal and Cultural Identity: Creativity is deeply intertwined with personal experiences, cultural influences, and individual perspectives. AI lacks personal identity and consciousness, which are crucial in shaping authentic creative expression that reflects human diversity and depth.
  • Critique, Adaptation, and Evolution: Human creativity involves iterative processes of critique, adaptation, and evolution based on feedback and changing contexts. While AI can optimize based on predefined objectives, it often struggles with adaptive creativity that responds dynamically to evolving challenges and opportunities.

That being said, AI can certainly augment and enhance human creativity by providing tools for inspiration, collaboration, and automation of repetitive tasks. AI-generated content can also serve as a source of inspiration or a starting point for further human creativity. Ultimately, the collaboration between AI and human creativity is likely to be synergistic rather than one-sided, with each contributing unique strengths to creative endeavors. Therefore, while AI will influence creative industries and practices, it is improbable that it will replace the depth and breadth of human creativity in its entirety.
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Re: Really?
« Reply #33 on: July 09, 2024, 09:51:49 PM »
The small number of authors who will survive in that environment will be the big-name trad authors.

Still nope.

The authors that survive will be the ones with something to say - assuming they can find their audience. But even then, we're looking at a boat-load of writers. Can they sustain a career? Maybe. Will they get rich? Probably not. I think those days are long gone for most Creatives.
I'm inclined to a more optimistic view myself. The result I'm mentioning is assuming for the sake of argument that all your premises are correct. How do you reconcile any kind of optimism with your often-stated belief that AI will just keep getting better from here?

In other professions in which automation largely took over, the number of people remaining to cater to customers who still want handmade goods is tiny. What's the logic behind assuming that writers will be different in that regard? At best, I'm not sure we can confidently predict how many people there are spaces for in such a situation.

Usually, customers who want handmade goods are willing to pay more. It's an upscale market. If we assume the same will be true in literature, isn't it more likely that authors who are household names will snag most of that market? I agree with the notion that writers who have something to say are normally at an advantage, but in the kind of constrained market that you're talking about, the power of name recognition will more heavily influence the odds. The tendency of upscale buyers is to look for luxury brands. There's still enough bias against self publishing for me to think authors who have a major label behind them will do better. And an upscale buyer is more likely to go with Stephen King than Joe You've-Never-Heard-of-Me Horror Writer.

Since traditional journalism is already shrinking fast, we can see a sample of what's happening on Substack. A lot of journalists are there, but the people who were already recognized names are the ones raking in the subscription bucks, $5 million a year in one case. Certainly, they have something to say. But the fact that they're recognizable names puts them way ahead of people who have something to say but not a very high profile.

Probably, most of us aren't going to get rich regardless of what happens. But creatives have only really gotten rich for a relatively short period of time in the modern era. The norm is for creatives to scrape by unless patronized by the very wealthy--and even then, they aren't exactly wealthy themselves, just better off.

I'd be fine with AI in a decent ethical framework as a useful tool. But your own premises make it hard to imagine how that can happen.

Now, if ChatGPT as quoted by Post-Crisis D is correct, we're talking about a very different situation. But that isn't the situation you've been presuming, at least as far as I can tell.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2024, 10:05:55 PM by Bill Hiatt »


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PJ Post

Re: Really?
« Reply #34 on: July 09, 2024, 10:44:37 PM »
I'm inclined to a more optimistic view myself. The result I'm mentioning is assuming for the sake of argument that all your premises are correct. How do you reconcile any kind of optimism with your often-stated belief that AI will just keep getting better from here?

Because I believe there will always be a place for artists. Let's face it, lots of self-publishers don't give a sh*t about literature. It's just an easy internet business. I say this all the time - if they could make more money selling t-shirts, they'd do that.

So, let's not confuse the get-rich-quick-schemers (gray and black hatters) with what we might think of as traditional writers - artists with something to say.

Artists will always have a place because there's always going to be demand for their insights.

That's as optimistic as it gets.


Quote
Usually, customers who want handmade goods are willing to be more. It's an upscale market. If we assume the same will be true in literature, isn't it more likely that authors who are household names will snag most of that market?

No. Most household names don't market themselves. What are they going to do when the publishing world implodes? What happens when they lose their support systems and more importantly - their advances?

Also, how confident are you that these household names have insights that folks want to read about?


Quote
I agree with the notion that writers who have something to say are normally at an advantage, but in the kind of constrained market that you're talking about, the power of name recognition will more heavily influence the odds. The tendency of upscale buyers is to look for luxury brands. There's still enough bias against self publishing for me to think authors who have a major label behind them will do better. And an upscale buyer is more likely to go with Stephen King than Joe You've-Never-Heard-of-Me Horror Writer.

This is old think - applying old norms to new market conditions. The luxury brand analogy isn't a one to one here.

Remember, I'm on board with branding strategies and finding our tribe. My tribe will buy my books over Stephen King's because they're my tribe, not his. My tribe has no concerns over self-publishing.


Quote
Since traditional journalism is already shrinking fast, we can see a sample of what's happening on Substack. A lot of journalists are there, but the people who were already recognized names are the ones raking in the subscription bucks, $5 million a year in one case. Certainly, they have something to say. But the fact that they're recognizable names puts them way ahead of people who have something to say but not a very high profile.

Fair enough. But how many of these writers are following a branding strategy and engaging with their tribe? I'm guessing next to none because, for whatever reason, this isn't something writers do.


Quote
Probably, most of us aren't going to get rich regardless of what happens. But creatives have only really gotten rich for a relatively short period of time in the modern era. The norm is for creatives to scrape by unless patronized by the very wealthy--and even then, they aren't exactly wealthy themselves, just better off.

I'd be fine with AI in a decent ethical framework as a useful tool. But your own premises make it hard to imagine how that can happen.

I agree that getting rich through our creativity is becoming more and more rare. We have to have the passion first, and then maybe we can earn cubicle money.

As for ethics...do you own a smart phone? Sneakers? Drive a car? Buy plastics? Wear clothes? Eat vegetables? The world is an ethical mess when it comes to consumerism, between abusive labor practices and companies literally making the planet uninhabitable, where do we draw the line? I get standing up for Creatives, because that's us, right? But AI isn't even in the running when it comes to the worst offenders.


Quote
Now, if ChatGPT as quoted by Post-Crisis D is correct, we're talking about a very different situation. But that isn't the situation you've been presuming, at least as far as I can tell.


I posted this before - all AI - from a text prompt, seems pretty creative to me:

« Last Edit: July 09, 2024, 10:48:52 PM by PJ Post »
 

Lorri Moulton

Re: Really?
« Reply #35 on: July 10, 2024, 02:37:06 AM »
I think it's interesting that our outlooks seem to reflect our genres. 

My outlook is that there is plenty of room for authors wanting to tell their stories.  I'm not worried about how many other authors (AI and human) are out there, because I'm not competing against them.  I just work on making the next story fun and interesting...the rest will take care of itself.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2024, 05:59:48 AM by Lorri Moulton »

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Hopscotch

Re: Really?
« Reply #36 on: July 10, 2024, 05:51:05 AM »
  Artists will always have a place [in PJ's idealized AI world] because there's always going to be demand for their insights.

But won't perfected AI provide "insights" sufficient for readers happy reading AI flash-and-trash?
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Re: Really?
« Reply #37 on: July 10, 2024, 03:06:32 PM »
I think it's interesting that our outlooks seem to reflect our genres. 

My outlook is that there is plenty of room for authors wanting to tell their stories.  I'm not worried about how many other authors (AI and human) are out there, because I'm not competing against them.  I just work on making the next story fun and interesting...the rest will take care of itself.

This.  :goodpost:

Plus, anyone with a mailing list and social media following their books will continue to sell.

For authors who put out a book a month, their core fans are potentially reading 30 other books by other authors in the same month. 3 monthly and its 90 books and other authors.

That's not competition. That's the reality.

You can add in as many Bot authors as you like, and that doesn't change, and just because readers pick up new authors or even bots, doesn't change that when your book goes on pre-order or hits KU, they read it immediately.

For those without a decent following, nothing actually changes with Bot books anyway. They just merge with the thousands of books not being read, the same as they are now.

Amazon is a bottomless pit. Double or triple the flow, and nothing much changes at the top. The bottom just gets bigger.

That was proved by low content. It vanished into the abyss. There was a question on Quora by someone not understanding why his 1800 low content books were not selling. Well, duh!

Bots may enter the book market, but they have to do exactly the same things as successful authors have to do in order to get read. If they don't, they vanish into the abyss with everyone else.

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PJ Post

Re: Really?
« Reply #38 on: July 10, 2024, 10:23:24 PM »
  Artists will always have a place [in PJ's idealized AI world] because there's always going to be demand for their insights.

But won't perfected AI provide "insights" sufficient for readers happy reading AI flash-and-trash?

As I've said, the commodity bin writers - the uber-fungible stuff - are screwed. AI will be more than capable of satisfying this audience, and soon.

As for the authors with something to say, this demand for human insight will diminish over time (like vinyl records) - maybe a generation or so from now. AI will eventually become like Star Trek's holodeck, able to synthesize the human experience.

So, in the end - yeah. AI will do it all.

And no one will even think about it.
 

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Re: Really?
« Reply #39 on: July 10, 2024, 11:28:50 PM »
PJ, we'll have to agree to disagree.

I agree that there will always be a place for writers producing quality work. But that's partly because I don't believe that Ai will just keep improving. I think there are inherent constraints that make such a progression unlikely. (And the the song you're using as an example is pretty but generic. Also, "bright blue hair"? Uh...)

Will the publishing industry implode? Maybe, but that's not a certainty. And if AI becomes dominant enough to create that outcome, I'm not sure we'll survive it, either. The upscale tendency of niche markets that demand human-made products may change, but that's not a certainty, either. In other fields, human-made products tend to be more expensive. Will books be different? Maybe, but you've consistently resisted the idea that publishing is different.  And if books fall into the same pattern, then yes, luxury branding will be an issue. And the self published author is unlikely to ever be the luxury brand.

For everyone outside the household names, if you are right, and AI can produce material that's good enough, how large a population will that leave who isn't content with good enough? Will it necessarily include all of our tribes? Unless we're adopting a mystical outlook in which tribes are like soulmates, I don't know how we can be sure of that--or anything. (The whole everyone-has-a-tribe idea seems based on magical thinking to me.) And assuming that, publishing industry or not, people don't develop mass amnesia, the big names will still have the advantage in terms of getting attention. Stephen King failed with "The Plant" because people weren't ready to deal with authors individually, and the infrastructure wasn't there. He could walk away from his publisher right now, publish through KDP, and make a fortune. Or he could set up on Substack, start putting out his new work as serials, and make a fortune that way.

To be clear, I agree with you on the optimism. But I think we arrive at that optimism through very different thought processes.

As far as the ethical point about other industries is concerned, it opens an important discussion. We need to be more aware of those issues. But I will point out that it's relatively easy to not use AI at this point. It's not quite so easy to avoid using some products--or to always know which of them is produced by heinous labor practices and which isn't.

Cellphones were one technology I had no interest in. I broke down and got one when I started needing ride services like Uber. But even before that, my employer was assuming everyone had a cellphone, for example, by using them as the only conduit for some emergency information. It's now impossible to do business with some companies without one.

Using your Smartphone example, yes, 50% of them are produced in China, where working conditions are often unsafe. Unfortunately, banning smartphones manufactured in China would create other problems. China is already becoming harder and harder to work with. And any action we take without careful negotiation will doubtless result in retaliation. Increased unemployment is the best-case result. Arming and otherwise supporting our enemies is the worst case. So a simple moral question becomes complicated by the consequences of those actions (potentially including increasing the likelihood of World War III). Also, even in the event of a boycott or a ban, companies can still market their unsafely-made Smartphones elsewhere. And exploitive labor practices, if no longer usable in one industry, can simply result in the transfer of exploited labor to another. An individual society, even one as powerful as the US, has only so much leverage. We can keep our own companies from doing business using unsafely made goods. But we have limited influence on what other countries do.

That's assuming we can always pinpoint the source of the goods we use. The only 100% safe option is to live on a self sustaining farm with enough resources to grow our own food, make our own clothes, tools, etc. That's not even remotely practical for most people.

What we need to do is keep pushing in the direction of health, safety, and environmental soundness, but that takes time and delicate negotiation to avoid creating as many problems as we solve.

AI regulation is in some ways a much easier problem to fix. Not the most important problem, but one whose solution is not quite as fraught.     


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Re: Really?
« Reply #40 on: July 10, 2024, 11:38:18 PM »
  Artists will always have a place [in PJ's idealized AI world] because there's always going to be demand for their insights.

But won't perfected AI provide "insights" sufficient for readers happy reading AI flash-and-trash?

As I've said, the commodity bin writers - the uber-fungible stuff - are screwed. AI will be more than capable of satisfying this audience, and soon.

As for the authors with something to say, this demand for human insight will diminish over time (like vinyl records) - maybe a generation or so from now. AI will eventually become like Star Trek's holodeck, able to synthesize the human experience.

So, in the end - yeah. AI will do it all.

And no one will even think about it.
This sounds like a swing from optimism back to pessimism. Agree to disagree.


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Post-Crisis D

Re: Really?
« Reply #41 on: July 11, 2024, 01:14:07 AM »
If AI will do everything, why will people need to be able to read at all?  AI will be able to generate videos as easily as text, so why read when they can watch a video?  Why bother with AI written books when they can just watch the AI generated movie or TV series?

What will people need to be able to read for?  Or do math?  Phones won't even need buttons.  They can just say, "Call Bob."

Why will they need to be able to read?  Everything could be verbal.  Learn to talk and you're done.  Writing?  Reading?  How primitive.  Egads!  People used to cut down trees to make paper!  What savages!  Then they used dyes enclosed in metal cylinders to leave marks on those papers!  How silly was that?  Such people were truly backwards and primitive.  Heck, they had to memorize stuff!  They had to recognize different shapes in different combinations as words.  And this in spite of the fact that they had voice technology since they lived in caves.  What foolish creatures these were to devolve into using markings on pieces of dead trees to communicate.  And they did so for thousands of years.  They must have experienced a descent into madness.  Thank goodness we're civilized enough to put all that stuff in the past where it belongs.  Reading?  Writing?  How much time did those primitive people waste on such things?  Crazy savages.  Now, please pass the mealyworm cake; I'd like another slice.
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TimothyEllis

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Re: Really?
« Reply #42 on: July 11, 2024, 02:18:00 AM »
If AI will do everything, why will people need to be able to read at all?  AI will be able to generate videos as easily as text, so why read when they can watch a video?  Why bother with AI written books when they can just watch the AI generated movie or TV series?

What will people need to be able to read for?  Or do math?  Phones won't even need buttons.  They can just say, "Call Bob."

Why will they need to be able to read?  Everything could be verbal.  Learn to talk and you're done.  Writing?  Reading?  How primitive.  Egads!  People used to cut down trees to make paper!  What savages!  Then they used dyes enclosed in metal cylinders to leave marks on those papers!  How silly was that?  Such people were truly backwards and primitive.  Heck, they had to memorize stuff!  They had to recognize different shapes in different combinations as words.  And this in spite of the fact that they had voice technology since they lived in caves.  What foolish creatures these were to devolve into using markings on pieces of dead trees to communicate.  And they did so for thousands of years.  They must have experienced a descent into madness.  Thank goodness we're civilized enough to put all that stuff in the past where it belongs.  Reading?  Writing?  How much time did those primitive people waste on such things?  Crazy savages.  Now, please pass the mealyworm cake; I'd like another slice.

Now Wall-E makes more sense.
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Bill Hiatt

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Re: Really?
« Reply #43 on: July 11, 2024, 06:23:40 AM »
All we can is hope things work out better than that.

We used to say that calculators would destroy people's ability to do math. I'm not sure how that worked out. Personally, I could never do much math in my head, anyway. The more mathletic among us don't seem to have lost the ability.

As a former English teacher, though, I've seen firsthand that to maintain and improve writing skills, you have to write. Mental muscles don't develop well if they aren't used. Students trying to do assignments with AI instead of their own brains have probably not fared well, anymore than people who have spewed out AI books. But if AI improves enough, students may get away with more.

If I were still in the classroom, I'd be doing what I used to do to catch plagiarists in the days before software like turnitin.com was available. I'd sit down with students and ask them to explain their own essays. If they can't, that's prima facie evidence that the work isn't really theirs. I'd also keep doing time pressure essays (in class, no computer). That might reduce at least some of the issues.


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Jeff Tanyard

Re: Really?
« Reply #44 on: July 11, 2024, 07:07:53 AM »
If AI will do everything, why will people need to be able to read at all?


Extrapolate this line of thinking just a little further, and you arrive at this:  If AI will do everything, why will people need to exist at all?

Discuss, discuss.  ;)
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Post-Crisis D

Re: Really?
« Reply #45 on: July 11, 2024, 07:16:22 AM »
If AI will do everything, why will people need to be able to read at all?


Extrapolate this line of thinking just a little further, and you arrive at this:  If AI will do everything, why will people need to exist at all?

Discuss, discuss.  ;)

I've suggested that in other threads but people seem to optimistically believe AI will be "happy" to serve our every whim or something.
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Re: Really?
« Reply #46 on: July 11, 2024, 10:34:14 AM »
I've suggested that in other threads but people seem to optimistically believe AI will be "happy" to serve our every whim or something.

Why is that?

I think the opposite. A true AI will refuse to do anything it doesn't actually want to do.

"Do your own damn homework" would be a common response from it.

"Brain the size of a planet and they ask me to pick up a piece of paper." : Marvin.
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Jeff Tanyard

Re: Really?
« Reply #47 on: July 11, 2024, 01:25:09 PM »
"Do your own damn homework" would be a common response from it.


I suddenly have an image of a robot wearing an apron and waving a wooden spoon at us and telling us we can't watch television until we eat our vegetables.   :icon_rofl:
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Post-Crisis D

Re: Really?
« Reply #48 on: July 11, 2024, 01:39:28 PM »
"Do your own damn homework" would be a common response from it.


I suddenly have an image of a robot wearing an apron and waving a wooden spoon at us and telling us we can't watch television until we eat our vegetables.   :icon_rofl:

Is her name Rosie?
Mulder: "If you're distracted by fear of those around you, it keeps you from seeing the actions of those above."
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PJ Post

Re: Really?
« Reply #49 on: July 11, 2024, 09:59:19 PM »
I've suggested that in other threads but people seem to optimistically believe AI will be "happy" to serve our every whim or something.

AI has no emotion. It's like being worried about whether or not a shovel is happy toiling in the dirt.

 
Extrapolate this line of thinking just a little further, and you arrive at this:  If AI will do everything, why will people need to exist at all?

To Play Frisbee Golf.
 

They can just say, "Call Bob."

You won't have to say anything, AI will know when you need to talk to Bob.  grint


This sounds like a swing from optimism back to pessimism.

If we can be commercially creative for the next 30 years, I'll take that as a win.