Profanity

[WordWrassler]

Admittedly I’m still in the writing/editing stage of my first series (2 out of four books completed as drafts) but I was wondering about everyone’s thoughts on swearing.

Two of my characters are potty mouths - for good reason - but is it something frowned upon with readers? Thoughts and opinions on bad language would be greatly appreciated.

[veinglory]

IMHO the thing to consider is whether people who are offended by fictional swearing are a large part of the potential readership for your book. 

[Shoe]

Don't your reading habits already inform you well enough on this point?

[Wonder]

It largely depends on expectations for your genre. A ton of swearing in traditional romance or a cozy mystery won't be received well. Look to other books in your subgenre for a sense of what's expected by readers.

Wonder

[DrewMcGunn]

I've yet to meet a reader whose said, "Drew didn't use enough profanity in his story. He should have been dropping the f-bomb every few sentences. The prose just wasn't colorful enough."

For me, profanity is like spice on food. A bit here and there and the flavor comes through more powerfully. Too much, though, and I can overwhelm my average reader. I write in the third person, so the only profanity I use is in dialogue. I have some characters who can't talk without cussing. But if I feel the prose is becoming too laden with profanity, I'll imply some to balance it out.

But to each their own. Find what works for your audience. YMMV.

[WordWrassler]

Don't your reading habits already inform you well enough on this point?

To some extent. I read around different genres, some of which prefer to use made-up swear words as a solution. However, I have also found that whilst violence is tolerated, profanity is not.

Just looking to get a handle on it and get opinions whilst I struggle through some editing 

[WordWrassler]

I've yet to meet a reader whose said, "Drew didn't use enough profanity in his story. He should have been dropping the f-bomb every few sentences. The prose just wasn't colorful enough."

For me, profanity is like spice on food. A bit here and there and the flavor comes through more powerfully. Too much, though, and I can overwhelm my average reader. I write in the third person, so the only profanity I use is in dialogue. I have some characters who can't talk without cussing. But if I feel the prose is becoming too laden with profanity, I'll imply some to balance it out.

But to each their own. Find what works for your audience. YMMV.

Thanks. This is probably where I am with my characters. Their backgrounds and then the situation they find themselves in allow for some colourful language choices.

Really, just want to make sure I wouldn’t be putting myself in the naughty corner for using swear words, especially with American readers but, as others have rightly pointed out, the genre will accept it.

[LilyBLily]

Technically, profanity is using God's name or derivatives of it. The f-bomb is not profanity. It's not even cursing. It's obscenity. Authors frequently debate whether to use such words in books, but I'm beginning to think that the debate misses the point. Using these words is like using lots of adverbs; it's lazy writing. The dialogue and descriptions and the set-up of the story should tell readers who these people are without using their typically filthy language. Unless you have a specific point to make. Or you deliberately want to offend some readers. Or whatever.

The f-bomb by itself is not colorful language. It's the reverse, basically a substitute for adjectives. By comparison, "F--- you and the horse you came in on" is colorful language.

[WordWrassler]

Technically, profanity is using God's name or derivatives of it. The f-bomb is not profanity. It's not even cursing. It's obscenity. Authors frequently debate whether to use such words in books, but I'm beginning to think that the debate misses the point. Using these words is like using lots of adverbs; it's lazy writing. The dialogue and descriptions and the set-up of the story should tell readers who these people are without using their typically filthy language. Unless you have a specific point to make. Or you deliberately want to offend some readers. Or whatever.

The f-bomb by itself is not colorful language. It's the reverse, basically a substitute for adjectives. By comparison, "F--- you and the horse you came in on" is colorful language.

Thanks LilyBLily - that was lazy of me to use profanity and not obscenity  - apologies.

I think your points hit at my concern and are definitely something to consider properly. I’m a bit of potty mouth myself and, perhaps, I don’t perceive it as a problem, though maybe I should in the context of writing dialogue.

[Shoe]

Just looking to get a handle on it and get opinions whilst I struggle through some editing 

Stick with what feels natural to you and your true voice and your audience will find you. That's my thinking anyway.

[Rosie Scott]

It really depends on the genre and reader expectations. I've seen a lot of reviews for books in an array of genres where people complain about swearing. Personally, I'm disappointed in literature that doesn't at least use some swearing, particularly with characters who would realistically use it. If there's a curse in every other sentence it outlasts its welcome, but I just can't get immersed in a world that doesn't have dialogue that feels realistic to me. Then again, cursing hasn't been taboo in my life for almost two decades, and I tend to like grittier, bloodier entertainment. In whimsical stories cursing may feel out of place, but if I'm dropped into the middle of a war and there isn't at least some cursing, I'll be pulled out of it in a second.

Dialogue is so immensely important for world-building and character-building. Personally, some of my characters curse in anger. Sometimes in severe pain or panic. Some characters don't curse at all. Lastly, a few of my characters tend to use cursing just as smoothly and easily as any other words. In this sense, my cast of characters mimics the people in my life. If it makes sense with the character, it works. I've never heard a complaint about the language in my novels, but then again, I'd think the gore/violence would get to people before the language. Write what you want to write and what you are comfortable with, and you'll build the right audience over time.

[WordWrassler]

It really depends on the genre and reader expectations. I've seen a lot of reviews for books in an array of genres where people complain about swearing. Personally, I'm disappointed in literature that doesn't at least use some swearing, particularly with characters who would realistically use it. If there's a curse in every other sentence it outlasts its welcome, but I just can't get immersed in a world that doesn't have dialogue that feels realistic to me. Then again, cursing hasn't been taboo in my life for almost two decades, and I tend to like grittier, bloodier entertainment. In whimsical stories cursing may feel out of place, but if I'm dropped into the middle of a war and there isn't at least some cursing, I'll be pulled out of it in a second.

Dialogue is so immensely important for world-building and character-building. Personally, some of my characters curse in anger. Sometimes in severe pain or panic. Some characters don't curse at all. Lastly, a few of my characters tend to use cursing just as smoothly and easily as any other words. In this sense, my cast of characters mimics the people in my life. If it makes sense with the character, it works. I've never heard a complaint about the language in my novels, but then again, I'd think the gore/violence would get to people before the language. Write what you want to write and what you are comfortable with, and you'll build the right audience over time.

I’m taking on board what LilyBLily said, but I agree with you as well. I’m not swearing merely for the sake of it and only using it in dialogue with certain characters. However, the fact that I’ve got concerns indicates that I should dial it down a little and find other creative ways to convey emotions. I don’t want to be lazy with my writing but a good swear has its place at times.

[YouMeWe]

Write the story how it needs to be told and f*** everything else.

Dial it back in edits if you must, but whatever you do - don't make lame substitutes. Nothing worse than reading a gritty thriller and finding the f-word used is fudge or flip. 

It's 2018. People swear. Using swear words isn't 'lazy writing', it's realistic writing.

Package the outside to accurately reflect the inside and your readers will find you.

[A. N. Onymous]

The meaning of profanity is varied depending on the dictionary, but does seem to include swear words etc.
From Wikipedia...

Profanity is socially offensive language, which may also be called curse words, cuss words, swear words, crude language, coarse language, oaths, blasphemous language, vulgar language, lewd language, choice words, or expletives.

I live in Australia and write in the Australian vernacular when writing dialogue. In Australia, almost everyone swears. Only little old ladies going to church seem to be an exception. If any dialogue did not have the f-bomb in it, it would not seem authentic. I do scale it down some. If the word is acceptable in an official Scrabble tournament, I have no trouble using it. I once played in a tournament against an octogenarian female who played the 'c' word!!!  She did apologise for using it.

[LilyBLily]

I read a lot of Lee Child books recently and don't recall any bad words at all. Maybe some were there, but I don't think so. But there were some very bad people indeed, and there were many military people, who as a class are known to use quite a lot of foul language. Yet nothing seemed dialed back. The stories were still intense.

As I said, this is endlessly debated. I don't expect there to be a winner or a loser. I'll note that in the mere month I spent in Australia, no one said any bad words in my presence. I suspect there are plenty of people everywhere in the world who while with friends may be lax about language but who make an effort to clean it up in other situations. Is your novel one of those situations? Only you and your audience can decide.

[idontknowyet]

I don't like to read books with profanity or obscenities, but I can ignore some if it fits the character and the setting. Just adding them for the sake of having them is irritating to me.

[CoraBuhlert]

Swearing is a part of human language and human speech. Most human beings will swear at least under certain circumstances. Nor is swearing a new phenomenon. Most of the swear words we still use today are very old indeed. You can find swearing in the works of Shakespeare, Goethe, Chaucer, etc...

My characters swear, when it makes sense for the character and situation. Some of them swear a lot (and interestingly, my female characters often swear more than the men), some occasionally and some never/hardly ever. Just like real people. I am careful with the big taboo words, i.e. the various racist and homophobic slurs and the c-word. With these words, I carefully weigh whether I really need to use it and also include a "strong language" warning in the blurb. I don't worry about the f-word and the s-word (and don't use a warning either), unless there are multiple instances on every page, in which case I tone it down a little. As for the various religiously tinged swearwords, i.e. profanity in the original sense of the word, those are largely invisible to me, because those terms don't bother anybody in Germany and hardly count as swearing at all.

Like Rosie Scott, I also tend to roll my eyes when there is a situation where the characters would realistically swear and yet for some reason don't or - worse - used defanged swearwords.

"Fiddlesticks", exclaimed Manly McMannerson, the heroic space marine, "Those dastardly aliens have breached our defenses and the darned plasma cannon is out of order."

Honestly, that sort of thing only belongs in parody. I also hate made-up swearwords that are particularly common in science fiction. For starters, it's usually obvious which word the made-up word is supposed to replace (there's a reason they all start with F). And secondly, those made-up swear words sometimes are actual words in another language, which can jolt you out of the story completely.

So yes, there is swearing in my books and my readers don't seem to mind. And those who do mind likely aren't part of my target audience.

I also find it interesting that Americans are much more bothered by swearing than by violence, whereas it's the opposite in Germany. 

[Writer]

A lot of authors lean toward personal or artistic preference, but here's my take. If authors' review averages were regularly skewed downward for having blue covers, I'd avoid blue covers. Blue may be the color of my birthstone, but it isn't a hill I'd be willing to take a ratings hit on.

As for the clumsiness of replacement swears, generally speaking, if someone's a skilled writer they're also skilled at subtly twisting dialogue in any direction they need it to go. If they're a ridiculous dialogue writer, they've got bigger problems than the f-bomb versus good gravy.

Then of course, there's the handful of genres where going "to the devil" or a cutesy "great golly" are actually seen as positives, in which case, dilemma solved.

[WordWrassler]

I live in Australia and write in the Australian vernacular when writing dialogue. In Australia, almost everyone swears. Only little old ladies going to church seem to be an exception. If any dialogue did not have the f-bomb in it, it would not seem authentic. I do scale it down some. If the word is acceptable in an official Scrabble tournament, I have no trouble using it. I once played in a tournament against an octogenarian female who played the 'c' word!!!  She did apologise for using it.

That did give me a chuckle

I’ve a similar background, albeit as a Londoner (from the rougher ends) and swearing is part of the fabric of daily communication.

[WordWrassler]

I suspect there are plenty of people everywhere in the world who while with friends may be lax about language but who make an effort to clean it up in other situations. Is your novel one of those situations? Only you and your audience can decide.

I think the situation would drive most people to swear and the characters are rough types. I do appreciate your take on this discussion. Perhaps, less is more? The use of obscenity definitely has a place in my (I hasten to say it) books, but maybe if used a bit more sparingly will have a better impact as opposed to the volume I might be used to in daily life.

[WordWrassler]

Swearing is a part of human language and human speech. Most human beings will swear at least under certain circumstances. Nor is swearing a new phenomenon. Most of the swear words we still use today are very old indeed. You can find swearing in the works of Shakespeare, Goethe, Chaucer, etc...

So yes, there is swearing in my books and my readers don't seem to mind. And those who do mind likely aren't part of my target audience.

I also find it interesting that Americans are much more bothered by swearing than by violence, whereas it's the opposite in Germany. 

Thanks CoraBuhlert. I’m trying to keep a sense of realism within a fictional setting. Swearing does have its place in this situation.

As for the clumsiness of replacement swears, generally speaking, if someone's a skilled writer they're also skilled at subtly twisting dialogue in any direction they need it to go. If they're a ridiculous dialogue writer, they've got bigger problems than the f-bomb versus good gravy.

I’m under no illusions. This series is a way to flex my writing muscles and learn about how to publish. I doubt I’m skilled enough to be subtle but I also don’t want to lean on obscenity. I’ll dial some of it back - as I said, for me to raise it and ask for opinions means it’s enough of an issue to reconsider. However, there’s a place for it in the dialogue.. I think.

Lots of helpful replies. Thanks all!

[Jeff Tanyard]

I’m under no illusions. This series is a way to flex my writing muscles and learn about how to publish. I doubt I’m skilled enough to be subtle but I also don’t want to lean on obscenity. I’ll dial some of it back - as I said, for me to raise it and ask for opinions means it’s enough of an issue to reconsider. However, there’s a place for it in the dialogue.. I think.

Lots of helpful replies. Thanks all!

A tactic to consider:

If you're not as confident in your craft as you'd like to be, and you'd like to work on your skills, then try writing the whole book without any cuss words at all.  This will force you to exercise those writerly muscles.  When you're done, then you can go back and add in the cuss words if you still want to.

Best of luck to you, whatever you decide.   

[WordWrassler]

A tactic to consider:

If you're not as confident in your craft as you'd like to be, and you'd like to work on your skills, then try writing the whole book without any cuss words at all.  This will force you to exercise those writerly muscles.  When you're done, then you can go back and add in the cuss words if you still want to.

Best of luck to you, whatever you decide.   

Solid advice - thanks Jeff.

I should check some resources on writing dialogue. The other issue I have, aside from swearing, is that my characters don’t say enough compared to dialogue in other books. Definitely something to work on in the next drafts.

[She-la-te-da]

Rule for Writing #1:  Write the story the way that is best for the story.

This means, if the characters swear, they swear. If they cross dress on alternative Thursdays and have tea with the Queen, then that's what they do. If they battle interdimensional tentacle monsters, so be it. If they're ultrareligious and "darn" is too harsh, back it off.

Because the thing is, you're going to offend someone, or disappoint someone. You will have readers who hate your work, readers who love it, and readers who can take it or leave it (and will mostly leave it). There's not much you can really do except to write the story as it needs to be written. No gratuitous sex, violence, swearing or whatever. But if the story needs blood and gore, you give it blood and gore. If it needs the f-bomb, then it gets it. Hence, Rule #1 is king.

[okey dokey]

QUOTE:
“It's 2018. People swear. Using swear words isn't 'lazy writing', it's realistic writing.”

People have been swearing long before 2018.
The major difference between “long ago” and now, is the use of swearing in “polite” company.
I'm a classic movie buff and it just amazes me how James Cagney, Bogart, etc., could project toughness   without today's brand of swearing.
Our writing has been too influenced by television, especially sit coms, where even the teenagers swagger and swear to canned laughter.
Lately I have preferred British sit coms where they do not need swearing to provoke laughter, and British dramas where great acting, not swearing, projects toughness.
I cuss. My friends cuss. But we choose where we fling about the rude swear words.

[A. N. Onymous]

QUOTE:
“It's 2018. People swear. Using swear words isn't 'lazy writing', it's realistic writing.”

People have been swearing long before 2018.
The major difference between “long ago” and now, is the use of swearing in “polite” company.
I'm a classic movie buff and it just amazes me how James Cagney, Bogart, etc., could project toughness   without today's brand of swearing.
Our writing has been too influenced by television, especially sit coms, where even the teenagers swagger and swear to canned laughter.
Lately I have preferred British sit coms where they do not need swearing to provoke laughter, and British dramas where great acting, not swearing, projects toughness.
I cuss. My friends cuss. But we choose where we fling about the rude swear words.

In older movies you don't hear them swearing because it wasn't allowed in general classifications. In real life Bogey was known to swear like a coal miner. (I read it somewhere, don't ask to name the source).

I cuss. My friends cuss. But we choose where we fling about the rude swear words.

...and anyone writing about those situations should use whatever language is utilised. I do agree that swearing is sometimes overused, especially by comedians. Robyn Williams and Eddie Murphy come to mind. Over the top and completely unnecessary. I think toning it down a tad would have enhanced their performances rather than detracted from them..

[CoraBuhlert]

QUOTE:
“It's 2018. People swear. Using swear words isn't 'lazy writing', it's realistic writing.”

People have been swearing long before 2018.
The major difference between “long ago” and now, is the use of swearing in “polite” company.
I'm a classic movie buff and it just amazes me how James Cagney, Bogart, etc., could project toughness   without today's brand of swearing.
Our writing has been too influenced by television, especially sit coms, where even the teenagers swagger and swear to canned laughter.
Lately I have preferred British sit coms where they do not need swearing to provoke laughter, and British dramas where great acting, not swearing, projects toughness.
I cuss. My friends cuss. But we choose where we fling about the rude swear words.

The lack of swearing in older movies is due to the restrictions of the production code, as Phoenix said. And the US ratings system is still pretty strict about swearing as well as nudity and sex, whereas quite a high degree of violence is allowed even in PG and PG13 movies. Meanwhile, Germany is the opposite where swearing and sex and nudity aren't a big deal, but violence is.

As for British dramas and sitcoms supposedly having no swearing, I wonder which ones you've watched, because British TV tends to have quite a lot of swearing. You won't find it in Doctor Who or Call the Midwife, but British crime dramas tend to have quite a bit of swearing and Misfits has several instances "I can't believe they just said that on TV".   

[RappaDizzy]

I don't have my characters use actual curse words very often. I just have them 'mutter' a curse word - swearing under their breath etc. It pushes me to be more creative in getting the character's anger or feelings across. The few times when I use an actual curse word I think it adds more impact in that scene.

I read a couple of authors who went to an extreme to try and use curse words in long strings etc and it bordered on the ridiculous. It led me to try and stay away from being 'real' in that way. I'm using words on a page to create a world the reader can imagine - and I let them imagine their own favorite curse words.
 

[tdecastro31]

I write crime novels populated with drug dealers, bookies, pimps, prostitutes, and strippers. When I use swear words in my books, it's because it's how those people speak to me. I try to keep it authentic, and not go overboard... but from a readership standpoint, I don't suspect that the people who are going to be turned off by language are going to be interested in reading about my characters anyway.

(Having said all of the above, I am looking forward to trying other genres and I suspect those characters will have a different vocabulary)

[Feliz]

Great thread. Since I write a lot of YA, I tend to stay clean for a broader audience, but I've slipped in a profane word here and there before, mostly in my "adult" stories and only in dialogue. That said, I do often notice many indie YA books with F-bombs and what not, while a lot of the typically more famous ones don't seem to or have fewer (HP, Twilight, HG, etc.). Like others have mentioned, it definitely depends on the audience. I try to target both the no-cussing and don't-care crowds. In real life, however, I definitely swear, so I'm not against any of it at all.

[munboy]

If it's an adult book for adults, go for it!

If they're books for a younger audience, tread carefully. A few years back, I was reading a YA series and enjoying it. In the third book, the main character just all of the sudden started dropping f-bombs. There wasn't even any light swearing (poop and heck) before that. It jarred me so far out of the book that I stopped reading the series. It's not that I have anything against swearing, I read sweary books all the time, it's just that it came out of nowhere and didn't seem appropriate for the character.

[Feliz]

Munboy, I totally agree. At the end of the day, I want consistency more than anything. Now, that can also be an issue with a series if, say, a new character comes much later and starts speaking profane words because of the type of character that person is. Though, I imagine just narrating the act of that might be ideal if the previous books had been squeaky clean. Otherwise, yeah, jarring, indeed.

[JRTomlin]

QUOTE:
“It's 2018. People swear. Using swear words isn't 'lazy writing', it's realistic writing.”

People have been swearing long before 2018.
The major difference between “long ago” and now, is the use of swearing in “polite” company.
I'm a classic movie buff and it just amazes me how James Cagney, Bogart, etc., could project toughness   without today's brand of swearing.
Our writing has been too influenced by television, especially sit coms, where even the teenagers swagger and swear to canned laughter.
Lately I have preferred British sit coms where they do not need swearing to provoke laughter, and British dramas where great acting, not swearing, projects toughness.
I cuss. My friends cuss. But we choose where we fling about the rude swear words.

The lack of swearing in older movies is due to the restrictions of the production code, as Phoenix said. And the US ratings system is still pretty strict about swearing as well as nudity and sex, whereas quite a high degree of violence is allowed even in PG and PG13 movies. Meanwhile, Germany is the opposite where swearing and sex and nudity aren't a big deal, but violence is.

As for British dramas and sitcoms supposedly having no swearing, I wonder which ones you've watched, because British TV tends to have quite a lot of swearing. You won't find it in Doctor Who or Call the Midwife, but British crime dramas tend to have quite a bit of swearing and Misfits has several instances "I can't believe they just said that on TV".

The English have been infamous for centuries for their swearing. As far back as the Hundred Years War, the French used Goddam as a slang for the English because of their constant cursing. Only the very cozy British tv does not have cursing in it and depending on where they are from, a lot of Brits would make even Yanks who frequently swear blush. The'c' word is widely frowned upon but otherwise, I cannot even start to repeat what people say. An example: there was a bit of a to-do in the UK just a couple of days ago over an 86-year-old MP calling another MP a 'piece of sh*t' on the floor of parliament. 🤦

In novels, it depends on your audience and your genre what is acceptable.

[WordWrassler]

If it's an adult book for adults, go for it!

If they're books for a younger audience, tread carefully. A few years back, I was reading a YA series and enjoying it. In the third book, the main character just all of the sudden started dropping f-bombs. There wasn't even any light swearing (poop and heck) before that. It jarred me so far out of the book that I stopped reading the series. It's not that I have anything against swearing, I read sweary books all the time, it's just that it came out of nowhere and didn't seem appropriate for the character.

Completely agree. You have to be careful with YA, but what I’m writing is far from it. I did, however, take away from this discussion and do a quick edit of the first book, taking out some swearing and replacing it with description in an attempt to portray the feelings and situation better. There’s still swearing, as the characters and situation demand though less so.

[munboy]

If it's an adult book for adults, go for it!

If they're books for a younger audience, tread carefully. A few years back, I was reading a YA series and enjoying it. In the third book, the main character just all of the sudden started dropping f-bombs. There wasn't even any light swearing (poop and heck) before that. It jarred me so far out of the book that I stopped reading the series. It's not that I have anything against swearing, I read sweary books all the time, it's just that it came out of nowhere and didn't seem appropriate for the character.

Completely agree. You have to be careful with YA, but what I’m writing is far from it. I did, however, take away from this discussion and do a quick edit of the first book, taking out some swearing and replacing it with description in an attempt to portray the feelings and situation better. There’s still swearing, as the characters and situation demand though less so.

Also be careful of the amount of swearing. If a character is super sweary, it gets distracting. I just finished the Grim Company trilogy and it has a sweary character. At times, the author went a little too far with the amount of it but at other times, the character would drop a word or two here and there and I enjoyed those parts much more. It was enough to get across that the character is a grumpy a-hole without the nonstop swearing.

[kdiem]

My advice would be:

First, know your genre expectations. Some genres answer this question for you (YA, cozy, etc).

Second, know your characters and circumstances. If your genre permits swearing AND the character is the sort who does so, go for it. My earthy main character uses a lot of Spanish obscenities (not profanity), but most of the other characters don't, though only a few actively shy away from swearing when it seems appropriate. As a result, books following my usual MC have a swears sprinkled through. The short story that features the mild-mannered, dainty librarian? The only obscenity is in the cameo by usual MC, and at at that point, I hope readers would agree with her sentiments.

Third, once you've finished your book, go back through and pare down any swearing to prune out the unnecessary. Some things can be communicated more effectively otherwise as LilyBLily suggested, or can be pared down a stream to a simple "So-and-So cursed." Personally, I find if I review them later, I'm more likely to take the time to consider that one sentence than when I'm in the groove. Stopping to NOT use it when it would be natural for the character would halt my forward momentum, and I don't need help with that.