Author Topic: Free and cheap...A race to the bottom!  (Read 18021 times)

Tonyonline

Free and cheap...A race to the bottom!
« on: October 08, 2018, 10:49:43 PM »
Free and cheap. A race to the bottom, I hear this said more and more but does that really mean a progressively lowering or deterioration of standards? I think not. Anyhow...

I have a day job and so for me writing is a hobby. Luckily I also have some spare cash to give the books I write a push, but when does pushing a book to get sales, stop, and making some cash begin?
My first two books are (arguably :icon_rolleyes:) non-fiction, one of them sells a lot more than the other, and surprisingly the other better seller of the two, sells paperbacks, the point is, that I can make a little cash from that book, as in, it pays for itself, advertising, and some.
Because I was moving into fiction, I wasn't sure what to expect. Yes, low sales, being an unknown author, but I didn't think I'd have to be giving it away, or put another way, paying to give it away!
I don't do free and I'm not going to run a book promotion that cost me to give my work away, so instead I pay to advertise the book and do exactly the same thing! Because I have to sell for 0.99, but what do you do  :shrug ?
Keep on keeping on. Write more well written books, have them professionally edited, have a good cover and blurb, advertise them and make nothing...repeat.

To be truthful I have no idea where I'm going with this post but I thought I'd ask those of you making a living from fiction, because it seems a very different beast to non-fiction, in that non-fiction doesn't require being constantly fed free and 0.99...When does pushing a book to get sales, stop, and making some cash begin? But please don't get me wrong! I enjoy writing, I don't have to earn from it, like most hobbies I understand it will cost me...But all the same, interested in your views and comments :heart:.
 
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Arches

Re: Free and cheap...A race to the bottom!
« Reply #1 on: October 08, 2018, 11:52:32 PM »
You already answered your question. Keep on keeping on, as you said. The one thing you didn't mention is that it's probably best to focus on one genre as much as possible. That helps a lot in gaining a readership. Marketing one book is almost impossible, but marketing one that feeds into a series can be very profitable.

Like you, I have a day job, and I don't intend to quit it, but I have cut back my hours considerably. Writing as a job is possible but it's very hit or miss. I've earned enough from writing to live frugally, but my sales fluctuate considerable depending on how my latest books are received. Keep the day job as long as you can, and that makes it easier to enjoy being a writer.
 

LilyBLily

Re: Free and cheap...A race to the bottom!
« Reply #2 on: October 09, 2018, 12:02:26 AM »
I guess I shouldn't answer, since I don't make a living from writing. 

Discounting is pointless if you've only got one book, but you can always do AMS, FB, or BB ads at full price. The first two, AMS, and FB, will deliver for sure if you properly target your ad. I'm not sold on the BB CPC/CPM ads being that productive, because BookBub is a discount newsletter and its audience expects discounts. Not so, Facebook or Amazon. 

I've been quite happy with sales of my $5.99 women's fiction thanks to an AMS ad that keeps on delivering. If I ever get a BB feature ad, the kind that could cost me $1458, I would discount to 99 cents and hope that people would buy my other two similarly branded stand-alone women's fiction novels. But I'm not actually trying for a BB feature ad right now, because most people I hear from on these forums are using discounting to sell series and there is little anecdotal evidence that discounting works the same way for stand alones.   :icon_think:
 
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Mark Gardner

Re: Free and cheap...A race to the bottom!
« Reply #3 on: October 09, 2018, 12:12:12 AM »
My biggest issue with the race to the bottom is that my art is worth something (not saying anyone else's isn't), and I refuse to devalue my art for a quick sale (not saying that anyone who does discount their work doesn't have value.)

My War of the Worlds: Retaliation co-author lives in the same area, and we work together in broadcasting. As a result, we often end up going to the same events, and the organizers often put the two of us side-by-side. I price my work at industry standard retail pricing, and he goes with the discount pricing. My paperbacks retail for $15 (a $10 margin), and he retails his at $8 (about a $3 margin as far as I can tell.) As far as full-length novels are concerned, I have four, and he has six, plus the one we co-authored. He also has two non-fiction sports books, and I also have a short story collection, and three paperback novellas (the collection is $15, and the novellas are $10 each.)

I always sell more books than he does at these events. Plus, my profits are much higher than his. He discounts when you purchase multiple books, I do not. I add value to multiple book purchases by emailing electronic versions, or for large sales, audiobook codes. In fact, when I was a guest at the 2018 Phoenix Comicon, the celebrity bookstore that was my host, priced my books at $20.

Some people are worried about obscurity, and think that setting their prices at industry standards will prevent sales, but I've not found that to be true. I'd rather price my art fairly, and if I make sales then I make sales.
 
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DrewMcGunn

Re: Free and cheap...A race to the bottom!
« Reply #4 on: October 09, 2018, 12:32:36 AM »
If your book is a stand-alone, you have to decide what your goals are. Because at 99c, it's hard for your advertising dollars to turn your book profitable. For many authors their advertising spend turns into profits because of read/buy through. Were it me, I would limit my ad spend to a low experimental amount while only having a single book out (be it a series or genre or something that ties your books together). As you build on that and have more books to offer, you should have more options about how to advertise your books without completely burning through profit.

Also, and this is just my opinion (I know others have different views), I think you need some social proof on your fiction book. Use an ARC service and get some reviews.

Over the past 30 days since your book was released there have been over 4,000 books released on Kindle in your genre of Mystery, Thriller & Suspense in English. IMO, reviews can help to draw attention to your book.

Of course as with most things we discuss here, YMMV.


Drew McGunn
 

Max

Re: Free and cheap...A race to the bottom!
« Reply #5 on: October 09, 2018, 12:45:31 AM »
Agreed, nonfic and fic are two different creatures. I don’t do nonfic, so I won’t say a thing about it. I make a living in fic. Specifically romance.

When creating the book, one can think of it as art, or a masterpiece, or a part of one’s soul. But when one is done with it, and releases it, it’s not that anymore. Until that artist can divorce himself/herself from their book and let it become a product, they will possibly internally struggle with giving it away.

The practice of loss leaders works. Else Walmart, Sam’s Warehouse, and every other place wouldn’t be giving samples away in the hopes the sampler will fall in love and buy the product.

I won’t let my emotions drive my business decisions. I won’t try to convince someone that their book is not art, but until one stops thinking of it in that way, they very well may hamstring themselves.

These are my opinions. Others may have different ones. They may even have different experiences. I don’t want to sway them. They can’t sway me. But when you evaluate the market and books, particularly when it comes to indies, see what most are doing. If that many do this, would they do it if it didn’t work?

PS. I come from this with the view that one wants to make the most money possible. And I assume that one has several books in a series, because otherwise there's no point in giving anything away.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2018, 12:52:39 AM by Max »
 
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Bill Hiatt

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Re: Free and cheap...A race to the bottom!
« Reply #6 on: October 09, 2018, 01:07:25 AM »
I agree that there is such a thing as pricing too low, but I'm having difficulty defining what industry standard really is.

I've heard a lot about trad paperbacks in the $15 range, and some of them are, but here are some examples that suggest that the "industry standard" is quite flexible (at least in terms of how much the book actually retails for).

Ready Player One: $8.79 (but discounted from $16; $12.80 at BN)
Altered Carbon: $10.87 (but discounted from $16; $14.40 at BN) (subsequent books in the series are progressively more expensive)
Circe $11.59 (discounted from $16.99; no paperback at BN)
Alchemist $11.34 (discounted from $16.99; $11.34 at BN)
Cursed by Fire $9.99 (not available at BN) (small publisher)
Paper Magician $10.99 (Amazon imprint)
An Easy Death (Charlaine Harris) $19.21 (paperback not available at BN) (small publisher, though Kindle Edition is put out by Simon and Schuster)
Night Shift (Charlaine Harris) $8.99 ($9.59 at BN)
The Elven $10.99 (discounted from $14.99; the Kindle is $1.99) (Amazon Imprint)
City of Bones $5.35 (discounted from $13.99; $11.99 at BN)
Dark Tower 1--Gunslinger $8.88 (discounted from $16.00; $12.80 at BN)

If there is an industry standard visible here, it's hard to tell. From a practical standpoint, it's not the list price but the actual retail price that's more relevant to me. If someone's shopping around, and one of my paperbacks is priced at $15.00, while major bestsellers with movie tie-ins are priced at far less, I would think that would be a problem in terms of sales. Granted that Amazon discounts far more than most, but more people are also shopping on Amazon than any other single site.

What variables drive paperback prices? From this small bit of data, it's not possible to tell. It appears that major bestsellers with lots of media attention are sometimes priced lower. Small publishers sometimes price lower. Amazon imprints sometimes price lower. The length of the book doesn't seem to matter. Nor does the author (look at the wild difference in the two Charlaine Harris titles, though they are put out by different publishers).

The situation is complicated by the fact that Amazon and other outlets are erratic in the way they discount. Works in demand by major publishers are almost always discounted, sometimes radically. Indie titles? The whole time I was in expanded distribution and had substantially higher prices, I saw only very small discounts or none at all (and none at BN). Ironically, I sometimes saw bigger discounts when I was priced lower, and occasionally insane ones, like a $8.25 book for $2.00--the bot was broken for a while, I guess. My point is that, if we hit the industry standard for paperbacks, but we don't get the "industry standard" discount Amazon applies, we end up looking far more expensive than works by better known authors. Is this really a good idea?




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okey dokey

Re: Free and cheap...A race to the bottom!
« Reply #7 on: October 09, 2018, 01:57:47 AM »
I'm with Article94 (Mark Gardner)

I don't agree with this quote:

". . . Walmart, Sam’s Warehouse, and every other place wouldn’t be giving samples away in the hopes the sampler will fall in love and buy the product."

Their samples are NOT the product. They are little pieces of the product (food). Their samples are samples.
Does BMW give away sample cars? Maybe you would really like the car and buy next year's car.
Nope. No BMW samples.

Indie publishing might be the only (or at least one of the few) that gives away the whole product as a sample.
Discount? Yes if you want to. But the whole product for free?

Walmart won't give you a whole package of pizzas as a sample. Just a bite.


 
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Mark Gardner

Re: Free and cheap...A race to the bottom!
« Reply #8 on: October 09, 2018, 05:17:10 AM »
And as far as I'm concerned, the "Look Inside" is the sample of my work.

I'm with Article94 (Mark Gardner)

I don't agree with this quote:

". . . Walmart, Sam’s Warehouse, and every other place wouldn’t be giving samples away in the hopes the sampler will fall in love and buy the product."

Their samples are NOT the product. They are little pieces of the product (food). Their samples are samples.
Does BMW give away sample cars? Maybe you would really like the car and buy next year's car.
Nope. No BMW samples.

Indie publishing might be the only (or at least one of the few) that gives away the whole product as a sample.
Discount? Yes if you want to. But the whole product for free?

Walmart won't give you a whole package of pizzas as a sample. Just a bite.
 

Amanda M. Lee

Re: Free and cheap...A race to the bottom!
« Reply #9 on: October 09, 2018, 05:23:36 AM »
I'm with Article94 (Mark Gardner)

I don't agree with this quote:

". . . Walmart, Sam’s Warehouse, and every other place wouldn’t be giving samples away in the hopes the sampler will fall in love and buy the product."

Their samples are NOT the product. They are little pieces of the product (food). Their samples are samples.
Does BMW give away sample cars? Maybe you would really like the car and buy next year's car.
Nope. No BMW samples.

Indie publishing might be the only (or at least one of the few) that gives away the whole product as a sample.
Discount? Yes if you want to. But the whole product for free?

Walmart won't give you a whole package of pizzas as a sample. Just a bite.
Or you could look at a freebie book as the sample of an entire book catalog. Personally, I know without a shadow of a doubt I wouldn't be where I am today without free giveaways. I have a huge one coming up Sunday. I will give an omnibus away for free and make absolutely huge numbers on the sell-through to the rest of the books. It is what it is. You don't have to give your books away for free. No one is making you. Those who do are making a business decision and if it didn't work, they wouldn't still be doing it.

WasAnn

Re: Free and cheap...A race to the bottom!
« Reply #10 on: October 09, 2018, 05:54:04 AM »
You're speaking a frustration that many authors feel. It does seem that so many people have freebies and sale prices and those books are moving, but what you're seeing is the promos, not the day to day.

Amanda is an outlier...in every respect...but, in my opinion, she's become an outlier by levels of production that rival the James Patterson Stable Of Writers Who Are Not James Patterson and understanding how to get readers to buy books. Look there for inspiration, but if you're a person with a book a year production and a single fiction book out, her methods are probably not going to work the same for you.

Free Samples have been a foundation for sales since forever.

You just have to decide what your sample is.

Once you've got thirty books or a hundred books or fifteen books in three series (or whatever) your notion of what a sample is may change from what you think when you have three books.

Many others are simply tired of doing calculus to organize a never-ending parade of promos, figuring out what to bounce and what that will do as a bank shot for which other books...etc.

Some don't want to discount ever, but have patiently built up reader bases with dedication and go with that.

I do this for love, not money, and I hate to market, so don't do me. I scattershot and write whatever the f^c* I want to. I'm a good writer and I give good story, but I'm not down with the calculus side of it, which will limit me unless lightning strikes again and I don't jump out of the way *again* because it's in the way of my overly elaborate smoothie.

The only thing that seems very clear and obvious...write more books. You have no choices or options to take up the calculus (or not) unless you have more books to throw into the equation.

Or not throw into the equation.


Science Fiction is my game.
 
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Amanda M. Lee

Re: Free and cheap...A race to the bottom!
« Reply #11 on: October 09, 2018, 06:08:55 AM »
Actually, I know people writing 1-2 books a year who are making free work for them. Yes, you need a backlist. Once you have that backlist, though, free moves the most books and is still one of the best marketing avenues out there.

WasAnn

Re: Free and cheap...A race to the bottom!
« Reply #12 on: October 09, 2018, 06:11:12 AM »
Actually, I know people writing 1-2 books a year who are making free work for them. Yes, you need a backlist. Once you have that backlist, though, free moves the most books and is still one of the best marketing avenues out there.

Like I said, a person's idea of sample size can change with more books.

Here is my quote:
Quote
Look there for inspiration, but if you're a person with a book a year production and a single fiction book out, her methods are probably not going to work the same for you.

I feel like I need a lawyer to parse everything for every possible meaning sometimes when I post.


Science Fiction is my game.
 
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Becca Mills

Re: Free and cheap...A race to the bottom!
« Reply #13 on: October 09, 2018, 06:59:25 AM »
I think free is scalable and can be helpful at any level of production. I only have two novels out. The first has been free for most of its life; the second has made about $35,000 and still sells a couple copies a day, four years out, due to giveaways of the first (in consistently but cheaply promoted boxed sets). If I had more books out, that freebie would be leveraging much more income, but even with just one paid book, having a freebie has made writing a comfortably self-sustaining activity for me. I don't feel devalued at all, honestly. I feel more like I'm striking a deal with people whose time and attention are worth a lot to them: Look, I know know your time is valuable, and I know this is off-genre and a little weird, but I like it, and I think you might like it ... would you please give it a try? Because it's free, a lot say "yes," and I'm able to sift out the relative few of those who actually turn out to be my peeps.
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munboy

Re: Free and cheap...A race to the bottom!
« Reply #14 on: October 09, 2018, 01:19:13 PM »
Try it. Offer something for free for a period of time and see how your other books sell as opposed to when your book is priced normally.

The problem I've found is with free books is they sit on people's devices along with 100 other free books. There's no telling when/if they'll get around to reading it.

For me, once I finished my fourth book, I started offering the first book in my trilogy for free, using it to build a newsletter list. That book generated sales for the trilogy and my fourth book. I saw the sharp increase in sales and KDP reads.

Now, I'm moving away from free to cheap on that book (.99) to continue generating sales. I'm hoping to eventually be able to release a book as a sale price but priced normally beyond when it's first released.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2018, 02:35:32 AM by munboy »
 

Simon Haynes

Re: Free and cheap...A race to the bottom!
« Reply #15 on: October 09, 2018, 01:53:56 PM »
I went with permafree for the first in my series, then kept writing more in the same series. I got to 8 books in 7 years before I finally swtiched back to paid.

I changed back, because my focus now is on building an engaged mailing list. Now I have the freebie on bookfunnel, where it requires joining my list. It's $2.99 on all bookstores.

I've done the same with three other first-in-series. All my 'book ones' can be obtained by joining my ML.

Bear in mind I have 17 novels out there, plus 12 shorts and a novella.

 
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Simon Haynes

Re: Free and cheap...A race to the bottom!
« Reply #16 on: October 09, 2018, 02:15:12 PM »
To add to this ... I'm paying roughly $5/day for one facebook ad which offers my first novel in exchange for a mailing list signup. I'm getting 8-10 subscribers per day with that. which works out 50c each.

But it's not about buying emails, these are people who see the cover and the blurb, decide it's something they might like, and then join the list to get a free copy.

My ad is highly targeted, as you'd expect with facebook. These people enjoy similar works by big name authors, and they're in the right age range to get my cultural references.

In three years, if I have a list with 12k such subscribers, I'll consider that a major success.
 
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Lorri Moulton

Re: Free and cheap...A race to the bottom!
« Reply #17 on: October 10, 2018, 02:04:23 AM »
You don't have to give your books away for free. No one is making you. Those who do are making a business decision and if it didn't work, they wouldn't still be doing it.

Exactly. 

Author of Romance, Fantasy, Fairytales, Mystery & Suspense, and Historical Non-Fiction @ Lavender Cottage Books
 

David VanDyke

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Re: Free and cheap...A race to the bottom!
« Reply #18 on: October 10, 2018, 12:45:17 PM »
People who moan about the race to the bottom forget that books have been widely cheap and free within the past, say, 80 years or so--ever since pulp paperbacks flooded the market and ended up in bargain bins, garage sales and flea markets. Oh, and libraries. And library liquidation sales. And Goodwill type shops. And swaps, and borrowing from friends, and so on and so on.

If you aren't picky, you can get tons of print books very cheap. The current free/cheap market is the digital equivalent.
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Trioxin 245

Re: Free and cheap...A race to the bottom!
« Reply #19 on: October 10, 2018, 08:21:28 PM »
In regards to writing fiction I have been doing that for a year. So far my best ROI is writing another book. 
 
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LilyBLily

Re: Free and cheap...A race to the bottom!
« Reply #20 on: October 10, 2018, 10:56:07 PM »
People who moan about the race to the bottom forget that books have been widely cheap and free within the past, say, 80 years or so--ever since pulp paperbacks flooded the market and ended up in bargain bins, garage sales and flea markets. Oh, and libraries. And library liquidation sales. And Goodwill type shops. And swaps, and borrowing from friends, and so on and so on.

If you aren't picky, you can get tons of print books very cheap. The current free/cheap market is the digital equivalent.

Even before the 25-cent Pocket Book paperback, Grosset & Dunlap was reprinting hardcover books in cheap hardcover editions  a year after the original came out. Doubleday's stable of book clubs and Book-of-the-Month Club (which did huge business for decades) did cheap hardcover reprints (on poorer paper) and/or gave away a certain number of books just for joining. Many books were serialized in magazines and newspapers, too, so the incremental cost of the book was nothing. In the 20th century, there was always a cheap alternative.
 
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Simon Haynes

Re: Free and cheap...A race to the bottom!
« Reply #21 on: October 10, 2018, 11:21:45 PM »
Pretty sure Penguin was first created as a way to print cheap copies of classics, so that everyone could afford them.

Anyway, with books it's not about the price. People generally buy the books they want to read, not whatever's free or cheap. E.g. there was a WWII fighter pilot autobiography I wanted, and I paid about $30 to get a paperback copy from the UK.

That was the last thing I've read for some weeks now, despite grabbing any number of bookbub/barbarian freebies since.


 

Tonyonline

Re: Free and cheap...A race to the bottom!
« Reply #22 on: October 11, 2018, 03:19:55 AM »
Thanks for all the comments and viewpoints, lots of food for thought...Which I'll be munching over for quite a while.
 

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Re: Free and cheap...A race to the bottom!
« Reply #23 on: October 12, 2018, 11:16:00 AM »
You're speaking a frustration that many authors feel. It does seem that so many people have freebies and sale prices and those books are moving, but what you're seeing is the promos, not the day to day.

Amanda is an outlier...in every respect...but, in my opinion, she's become an outlier by levels of production that rival the James Patterson Stable Of Writers Who Are Not James Patterson and understanding how to get readers to buy books. Look there for inspiration, but if you're a person with a book a year production and a single fiction book out, her methods are probably not going to work the same for you.

Free Samples have been a foundation for sales since forever.

You just have to decide what your sample is.

Once you've got thirty books or a hundred books or fifteen books in three series (or whatever) your notion of what a sample is may change from what you think when you have three books.

Many others are simply tired of doing calculus to organize a never-ending parade of promos, figuring out what to bounce and what that will do as a bank shot for which other books...etc.

Some don't want to discount ever, but have patiently built up reader bases with dedication and go with that.

I do this for love, not money, and I hate to market, so don't do me. I scattershot and write whatever the f^c* I want to. I'm a good writer and I give good story, but I'm not down with the calculus side of it, which will limit me unless lightning strikes again and I don't jump out of the way *again* because it's in the way of my overly elaborate smoothie.

The only thing that seems very clear and obvious...write more books. You have no choices or options to take up the calculus (or not) unless you have more books to throw into the equation.

Or not throw into the equation.
:clap:
I absolutely love this answer. We each need to do what works best for us and our books. I am also not doing this for uber money...although I *do* like making money and strive to increase my royalty monies with each publication. But I also have given thousands of books away. Not even kidding. I've given half my list away and even though I could technically be making money from those books, instead I get word of mouth, sell through to my other books, reviews, and an audience. Free has worked the absolute best for me and I've used it in different forms for the past couple of years. I love free and am glad it's an option for us. However, it's not something I'll likely do forever. At some point I'll have more paid than free books.
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Re: Free and cheap...A race to the bottom!
« Reply #24 on: October 12, 2018, 11:33:30 AM »
If it means I can push my 5-figures a month into 6-figures a month, you can devalue my "art" any which way you want, and twice on Sundays.
 
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Robin

Re: Free and cheap...A race to the bottom!
« Reply #25 on: October 13, 2018, 12:26:56 AM »
In regards to writing fiction I have been doing that for a year. So far my best ROI is writing another book.

Agreed, without a doubt writing another book gives me the best ROI. I release a new novel every 3-4 months.

I hated the thought of giving away my books for free, but when I do I definitely see an uptick in page reads on all my other books. I do think free promotions are worth it, but only if you have other books in your catalogue for readers to explore.

Like others have said it is an individual business decision, but you'll never know if it works for you unless you try it!
 

PJ Post

Re: Free and cheap...A race to the bottom!
« Reply #26 on: October 13, 2018, 05:26:47 AM »
I think it's important to remember that when we discuss 'the race to the bottom', we're talking about it in the past tense. The race to the bottom happened six years ago when Indies undercut the prevailing $15.99 traditionally published e-book price by lowering their own prices, not to be competitive through careful analysis, but simply as low as Amazon would allow, which happened to be 99 cents. If they could have lowered them to a nickel, they would have done that too. The reason the $2.99 price point is seen as having the best ROI is because that's the lowest price available for the 70% return. So the data centers around that artificial equilibrium point. Again, if the 70% return rate was available at $1.49, then that would be the most lucrative price point.

These are all artificial constructs, which is why traditional publishing was railing so hard against us. We, the collective Indie 'we', managed to undervalue the entire publishing industry, destroying careers and century-old processes that really did support a broad foundation of literature, such as financing long-term non-fiction explorations or nurturing up and coming mid-list authors. Tragedy of the Commons

By the time KU2.0 came along, Indies couldn't lower their prices any further, so they began assembling massive box sets for the same 99 cents, effectively offering an even lower per page price, which continued to devalue literature.

It's clear what happened and when - and even why, however, I think that discussion is better left to academia at this point. Like it or not, we're in a new paradigm now, as are all creatives: writers, musicians, painters, etc.

Readers are conditioned to super-cheap books. As noted up-thread, we've drastically reduced the price of traditionally published books as well. Now, it's become a self-fulfilling prophecy, a snake chasing its own tale. To compete, we must lower our prices, which reinforces the consumer expectation that books should be cheap. Streaming et al has done the same thing to the music industry. I don't think records like The Dark Side of the Moon or Sgt. Peppers could ever happen now.

___


With all of that said, the free book (creative product) strategy is here to stay and it definitely works, how well depends on how successful the publisher is at leveraging it.

I think the discussion needs to be re-framed, not as a race to the bottom (because we're already on the bottom), but how to elevate the inherent value of our brands. I think the best way to do this is to think of our books as monopolies as opposed to fungible widgets. Yes, they are one voice in the maelstrom of entertainment options, but they can also be unique voices, unique in a way that no other entertainment choice can satisfy, be it character or prose or story. No one else tells the stories I tell, and no one else tells stories like I do. How unique I am when compared to other writers is up for debate, but that doesn't change the focus of the strategy.

This is why I am so against writing to market. By definition, it cannot be unique or original or have anything meaningful to say. If you are writing unique characters and stories, or exploring difficult themes, then you're not writing to market, even if you think you are. WTM is all about fulfilling expectations, not about introducing new ones.

I think the way forward is going to be some form of hyper-differentiation branding, and because so many people have become creatives, and really good ones at that, it's going to take some serious chops to make it even then. I got disgusted with the whole pay-to-play click-ad thing last year and have stopped promoting and publishing altogether while I try to figure out how to leverage my brand. Sometimes the solution is throwing money at the problem, sometimes the solution requires a completely different approach.

I'm not having much fun with the current crop of entertainment options out there, be it television, books, movies or music. Everything at the top, the 'bestsellers' so to speak, is stale and empty-headed, soulless plastic rehashes of everything that ever worked before. I think, to use a sports analogy, that rather than swinging for the fences with every book, we should focus on base hits, building up a reputation for a specific niche (target market) that defines our brand, which may be a recognized genre, or some other creative segmentation strategy.

The point being, that instead of playing the commodity game, find your place in a niche market (or markets), where you can raise your prices appreciably and still be competitive.

You know, in my humble opinion and all that.

EC Sheedy

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Re: Free and cheap...A race to the bottom!
« Reply #27 on: October 13, 2018, 04:10:59 PM »
PJ Post, thanks for nudging my brain to think again. I need to give some thought to pricing.

New book out, not doing any of the big launch stuff.
Book dying.
Another book due out in a couple of months . . .  :confused:

While pricing is undoubtedly only one of the problems, your comments were still an immense help. I think I'll do some deep breathing . . .

 :goodpost:
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Simon Haynes

Re: Free and cheap...A race to the bottom!
« Reply #28 on: October 13, 2018, 04:25:20 PM »
I may have mentioned this before, but I price at $4.99 for all my books, barring first-in-series, which are $2.99.

The price gives me enough leeway to buy some clicks on various ad platforms.

Everything I write is part of one series or another, and every novel is set in the same universe, with crossovers from various characters. Even the middle-grade novels and many of my short stories.

My intention is to build a fan base, not sell books. To that end, I've switched from pushing freebies on all and sundry to focussing on building my mailing list, as mentioned above. I offer all my first-in-series books free, via bookfunnel, and I'm now getting 20-30 new signups per day thanks to CPC ads.

I've created Alpha reading teams, (40 people, chapters as I write them), Beta reading teams (40 others, ARCs) and a Reviewer team of maybe 200 people who get every new release, free.

I have a signup process which hands out a couple of freebies, introduces me to the people who are kind enough to sign up, and offers them a spot on the review team.

I've all but abandoned newsletter swaps, because they feel a bit too spammy to me.

Since I'm writing a book every 4-6 weeks right now, there's plenty for me to share when I do put out a newsletter, but I've started focussing on smaller segments of the list each time, instead of blasting everyone with a generic newsy email.

 
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PJ Post

Re: Free and cheap...A race to the bottom!
« Reply #29 on: October 14, 2018, 12:54:01 AM »
My intention is to build a fan base, not sell books.

It's not a new idea, but I still think this is where things are going in the future. We see it reflected in all of the featured artists showing up on new recordings - it keeps the artists relevant and gives them something to promote, even if it isn't theirs. The goal is celebrity, not direct sales, because celebrity generates income on its own, even for narrowly defined market segments (niches). It's a different game. The philosophy explained: 1,000 True Fans

Lots of fans are going to buy lots of books. It feels like the same thing on the surface, but as Simon points out, it really is a fundamentally different approach.
 
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elleoco

Re: Free and cheap...A race to the bottom!
« Reply #30 on: October 14, 2018, 07:55:34 AM »
If you aren't picky, you can get tons of print books very cheap. The current free/cheap market is the digital equivalent.

I think that's the key. A lot of us who are picky long ago stopped considering free and cheap unless from a known and liked author. Probably there are less of us.

dgcasey

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Re: Free and cheap...A race to the bottom!
« Reply #31 on: October 14, 2018, 04:43:34 PM »
Indie publishing might be the only (or at least one of the few) that gives away the whole product as a sample.
Discount? Yes if you want to. But the whole product for free?

I hear you. I think the Look Inside is plenty enough for a reader to get an idea as to whether they will like the book or not.
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Amanda M. Lee

Re: Free and cheap...A race to the bottom!
« Reply #32 on: October 15, 2018, 03:16:42 AM »
I may have mentioned this before, but I price at $4.99 for all my books, barring first-in-series, which are $2.99.

The price gives me enough leeway to buy some clicks on various ad platforms.

Everything I write is part of one series or another, and every novel is set in the same universe, with crossovers from various characters. Even the middle-grade novels and many of my short stories.

My intention is to build a fan base, not sell books. To that end, I've switched from pushing freebies on all and sundry to focussing on building my mailing list, as mentioned above. I offer all my first-in-series books free, via bookfunnel, and I'm now getting 20-30 new signups per day thanks to CPC ads.

I've created Alpha reading teams, (40 people, chapters as I write them), Beta reading teams (40 others, ARCs) and a Reviewer team of maybe 200 people who get every new release, free.

I have a signup process which hands out a couple of freebies, introduces me to the people who are kind enough to sign up, and offers them a spot on the review team.

I've all but abandoned newsletter swaps, because they feel a bit too spammy to me.

Since I'm writing a book every 4-6 weeks right now, there's plenty for me to share when I do put out a newsletter, but I've started focussing on smaller segments of the list each time, instead of blasting everyone with a generic newsy email.
I'm confused. You saying you're willing to pay for newsletter sign-ups to build a fan base. I get that. It's pretty much the opposite of my game plan, but I get it. Others have tried it and made it work for a time. How does that work with ARCS and stuff, though? Your September release only has four reviews and if you're getting 20 new people on your list a day, that equals about 600 people a month. That's a lot of people to add, and kudos, but they don't look to be buying. What's the plan to change that? I'm honestly curious. I'm not trying to be difficult. I simply don't think this method works over the long haul and I'm curious why you do think it will work.
 

Lorri Moulton

Re: Free and cheap...A race to the bottom!
« Reply #33 on: October 15, 2018, 03:34:50 AM »
I love free.  It's been very good to me and by free I mean (usually) taking advantage of the five free days with KU.  Always free doesn't convey any urgency.  Free for a short time gives readers more incentive to grab that book today.

I also do a ton of social media and don't have a mailing list.  I'm not saying my way is the best...and certainly not the only way to do this.  It might not work, but at least I'm not going into debt to find out. 

When I finish my series, I may try paid advertising.  I think the most important thing I've learned in business is to be flexible.  Do something until it doesn't work as well anymore and be willing to try new things.  Especially if they're free!  :angel:

Author of Romance, Fantasy, Fairytales, Mystery & Suspense, and Historical Non-Fiction @ Lavender Cottage Books
 

Tom Wood

Re: Free and cheap...A race to the bottom!
« Reply #34 on: October 15, 2018, 03:59:16 AM »
... My intention is to build a fan base, not sell books. To that end, I've switched from pushing freebies on all and sundry to focussing on building my mailing list, as mentioned above. I offer all my first-in-series books free, via bookfunnel, and I'm now getting 20-30 new signups per day thanks to CPC ads. ...
I'm confused. You saying you're willing to pay for newsletter sign-ups to build a fan base. I get that. It's pretty much the opposite of my game plan, but I get it. Others have tried it and made it work for a time. How does that work with ARCS and stuff, though? Your September release only has four reviews and if you're getting 20 new people on your list a day, that equals about 600 people a month. That's a lot of people to add, and kudos, but they don't look to be buying. What's the plan to change that? I'm honestly curious. I'm not trying to be difficult. I simply don't think this method works over the long haul and I'm curious why you do think it will work.

I'm sure Simon will step in here, but what he is doing sounds a lot like what Mark Dawson (Self Publishing Formula) has been advocating for a while. Dawson is frequently quoted as saying that he'd rather have a sign-up than a sale. It has to do with sell-throughs to the rest of the series.
 
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Amanda M. Lee

Re: Free and cheap...A race to the bottom!
« Reply #35 on: October 15, 2018, 04:09:54 AM »
... My intention is to build a fan base, not sell books. To that end, I've switched from pushing freebies on all and sundry to focussing on building my mailing list, as mentioned above. I offer all my first-in-series books free, via bookfunnel, and I'm now getting 20-30 new signups per day thanks to CPC ads. ...
I'm confused. You saying you're willing to pay for newsletter sign-ups to build a fan base. I get that. It's pretty much the opposite of my game plan, but I get it. Others have tried it and made it work for a time. How does that work with ARCS and stuff, though? Your September release only has four reviews and if you're getting 20 new people on your list a day, that equals about 600 people a month. That's a lot of people to add, and kudos, but they don't look to be buying. What's the plan to change that? I'm honestly curious. I'm not trying to be difficult. I simply don't think this method works over the long haul and I'm curious why you do think it will work.

I'm sure Simon will step in here, but what he is doing sounds a lot like what Mark Dawson (Self Publishing Formula) has been advocating for a while. Dawson is frequently quoted as saying that he'd rather have a sign-up than a sale. It has to do with sell-throughs to the rest of the series.
Except there's obviously no sell-through happening. That's the point. If there's no sell-through, how does that plan work?
 
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Simon Haynes

Re: Free and cheap...A race to the bottom!
« Reply #36 on: October 15, 2018, 04:21:38 AM »
I'm confused. You saying you're willing to pay for newsletter sign-ups to build a fan base. I get that. It's pretty much the opposite of my game plan, but I get it. Others have tried it and made it work for a time. How does that work with ARCS and stuff, though? Your September release only has four reviews and if you're getting 20 new people on your list a day, that equals about 600 people a month. That's a lot of people to add, and kudos, but they don't look to be buying. What's the plan to change that? I'm honestly curious. I'm not trying to be difficult. I simply don't think this method works over the long haul and I'm curious why you do think it will work.

That's fine, I understand the line of questioning.

I've only been advertising list signups for 6 days. It's now hitting 40 per day, and yes, I've added over 200 in that time.

I have these new people identified in the database (by source), so I'll be checking their open/click rates over time, and if they're a lot lower than the average I'll have a rethink. Otherwise I'll keep adding (hopefully) 800-1200 a month.



Re the four reviews on the September 30th release:

I only sent out 39 review copies, because that was the size of the reviewer team back then. Reviews on Amazon.com won't be representative - partly because I'm wide, and also because more than half my market consists of UK, AU and CA readers.

(That said, there's currently the one review on amazon.co.uk. But I do tend to get spread very thin across multiple stores and countries. One reader in New Zealand managed to leave her review for the first book on Amazon.com, but that was only yesterday. She's about to start the second, which is the Sept release you mentioned.)

In the past 2 weeks my reviewer team has risen to 140 people, so hopefully that will mean a few more reviews for book three when it's released.

When I do get reviews they tend to be pretty good, so I'd really like to encourage more of them, believe me.

But here's the thing: I had a Bookbub 6 weeks ago which shifted over 6000 copies of my first omnibus at 99c. I've only had 13 reviews for that title on amazon.com in the 6 weeks since.

I used to wonder if maybe people buy my stuff and then stop reading halfway through. But that can't be the case, because my sellthrough figures tell me that at least half go on to buy all the rest of my novels. (Bookbub 99c deal excluded. The sellthrough to the second omnibus was more like 10%, but first, they got a 1000-page book which many won't have read yet, and second, Omni Two is $7.99)

Those sellthrough figures are what I'm banking on with this strategy. By the end of this month I'll have 18 novels all of which are set in the same universe, featuring various combinations of the same characters. If someone likes one, they ought to like the rest, which is why getting one into their hands for free has been my goal for the past 7 years.


Sorry, long post but it was partly for myself, to examine the variables and work out if what I'm trying to achieve made sense.

But yes, the lack of reviews across all of my books does get to me sometimes.


ETA: typos! Long post, and I bashed out 4k words today AND it's 2.30am here.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2018, 04:25:12 AM by Simon Haynes »
 
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Amanda M. Lee

Re: Free and cheap...A race to the bottom!
« Reply #37 on: October 15, 2018, 04:26:43 AM »
Basically you're saying you haven't implemented the new sign-ups yet. You should do a thread when you test those sign-ups. I'm sure a lot of people will be interested.
 
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Simon Haynes

Re: Free and cheap...A race to the bottom!
« Reply #38 on: October 15, 2018, 04:26:56 AM »
PS you know that stereotype about the reserved englishman? That's my typical reader! No wonder I don't get many reviews.

 

Simon Haynes

Re: Free and cheap...A race to the bottom!
« Reply #39 on: October 15, 2018, 04:28:31 AM »
Basically you're saying you haven't implemented the new sign-ups yet. You should do a thread when you test those sign-ups. I'm sure a lot of people will be interested.

Yes, correct. I've been adding them like crazy but only for 6 days.

I'm keen to see how they react too, and I will let you know.

 
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Luke Everhart

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Re: Free and cheap...A race to the bottom!
« Reply #40 on: October 15, 2018, 04:34:52 AM »
I guess the question of freebies as a marketing strategy recurs (a lot!) on the other forum and now here because of new authors, which is fine and understandable. But for those who've been around a bit... it's odd.
Immensely successful authors (and I mean 7 fig territory) that do free giveaways to bring in readers:
Mark Dawson
Amanda M Lee
Lindsay Buroker
Jana DeLeon
Kristin Painter
Everyone of which I first sampled because of a free book and I'm a regular reader of every single one of them now.
It works if you have 1) a backlist and 2) a good book.

...the undervaluing my art line is just an ego statement btw (not a dig but a description). There is no objective value to art. Absent market determination, which is dynamic and any such determination is a snapshot in time, that assumed value to be undercut is merely an arbitrary claim of ego. Best to put it out of mind, but if attached to the notion then Amanda's suggested perspective of your entire catalog as the product at least keeps it from thwarting a really viable strategy.
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Simon Haynes

Re: Free and cheap...A race to the bottom!
« Reply #41 on: October 15, 2018, 04:39:47 AM »
I think I mentioned this up-thread, but for the past seven years my strategy was 'book one free, sell the rest'

It worked, but since I changed the first back to 2.99 it's become my third-best-selling title, and this is a novel I first published in 2001.

I started a long thread about this decision on the Other Place, and I went back and forth between free, 99c, and 2.99 before settling on the latter.

Thing is, my new strategy is pretty similar to the old one. I'm still giving away 30-40 copies per day of a first-in-series, but now they join my mailing list too. AND the book is selling everywhere else, rather than being a perma-free everywhere. And, of course, if they enjoy book one there are 17 more waiting for them, all cunningly linked from the backmatter.


Finally, the royalties on the no-longer-perma-free books pay for the ads. Win win.


 

PJ Post

Re: Free and cheap...A race to the bottom!
« Reply #42 on: October 15, 2018, 05:40:49 AM »
I think the tough part of this discussion is understanding the actual dynamics at play, not the least of which is understanding critical mass. I've known lots of successful business people who had no clue how they became successful, although they thought they did. And when the market shifted, they went under. (This is not directed at anyone here, just an observation from my business career demonstrating that not everything is as straightforward as one might believe - even when the data appears to support those conclusions - I give you New Coke). When success was achieved is just as important as how. Everything is connected, and these hard to identify relationships influence everything, including the market itself - as a result, market dynamics change over time.

This is important because it makes emulating these successful strategies really tricky, because we don't always know what the primary drivers are.

I've always maintained that, beyond the visibility and marketing basics, it's the 'Art' component that's making these people successful over time - that is, they write really good books, which, theoretically, feeds into the True Fan approach. That's why they get lots of reviews quickly, the fans have a vested interest in the author doing well. Every review validates them as a fan. It's a niche celebrity thing. It's so weird when writers reject this possibility; it's as if they'd rather be known as a savvy business person than an accomplished artist. I don't get it. Maybe it's the luck versus work debate? Anyway, there was a whole long thread about it on KB a while back.

But, beyond the Art thing, we're up against a post-scarcity, zero-marginal cost dynamic, which has led to insane over-saturation, and that goes for all of the various entertainment segments. Normal market drivers no longer exist. And it's from this chaos that ad-click companies found a market to elevate product visibility above the noise. I wonder if Amazon earns more from book AMS than they do from the book sales themselves.
 
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dgcasey

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Re: Free and cheap...A race to the bottom!
« Reply #43 on: October 15, 2018, 07:09:17 AM »
It worked, but since I changed the first back to 2.99 it's become my third-best-selling title, and this is a novel I first published in 2001.

My plan, after I finished the third book in my trilogy, is to take the first book to $1.99, with the other two at the regular $3.99.

Now, the question I have is, The Tales of Garlan is a prequel to The Chronicles of Wyndweir. I'm wondering if I should actually put The Chronicles of Wyndweir on the front cover of that book and make it an actual part of the series? Maybe call it Book 0.5 or something like that.
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David VanDyke

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Re: Free and cheap...A race to the bottom!
« Reply #44 on: October 15, 2018, 11:51:16 AM »

...the undervaluing my art line is just an ego statement btw (not a dig but a description). There is no objective value to art. Absent market determination, which is dynamic and any such determination is a snapshot in time, that assumed value to be undercut is merely an arbitrary claim of ego. Best to put it out of mind, but if attached to the notion then Amanda's suggested perspective of your entire catalog as the product at least keeps it from thwarting a really viable strategy.

Absolutely.

Even monetary value needs to be valued over the life of the copyright, not by the price per copy of the book. So many people seem to be arguing (from ego, as you say) that the price of a copy needs to reflect some gut feeling about value.

But, even before ebooks, books were deeply discounted or ended up in the free bin. What mattered was, how much did the author get for writing the book? Before ebooks, if an author got a big advance, say, $200K, that was probably all they'd ever get. To the author, that's what the IP ended up being worth, and it didn't matter at all what Waldenbooks sold a copy for.
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Cathleen

Re: Free and cheap...A race to the bottom!
« Reply #45 on: October 15, 2018, 01:33:38 PM »
The Tales of Garlan is a prequel to The Chronicles of Wyndweir. I'm wondering if I should actually put The Chronicles of Wyndweir on the front cover of that book and make it an actual part of the series? Maybe call it Book 0.5 or something like that.

I don't pretend to be a marketing expert. I'm responding to this purely as a reader, as someone who has read many fantasy books.

Book .5 seems...improvised. An afterthought. Clearly not part of the main work, and therefore somewhat extraneous. Doesn't seem to be a helpful connotation for any marketing efforts.

No matter your personal thoughts on his work, I don't see how you can go wrong following the example of Tolkien, or possibly that of his publishers. (I'm not privy to all the nitty-gritty details.) LOTR is a three-volume set. The Hobbit is marketed as the prequel to LOTR.

Just my thoughts. :)
 

dgcasey

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Re: Free and cheap...A race to the bottom!
« Reply #46 on: October 15, 2018, 01:55:58 PM »
No matter your personal thoughts on his work, I don't see how you can go wrong following the example of Tolkien, or possibly that of his publishers. (I'm not privy to all the nitty-gritty details.) LOTR is a three-volume set. The Hobbit is marketed as the prequel to LOTR.

Yeah, what I'm thinking is that, where the three novels all say The Chronicles of Wyndweir ~ Book XXX on the covers, this one could say A Prequel to The Chronicles of Wyndweir.
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ragdoll

Re: Free and cheap...A race to the bottom!
« Reply #47 on: October 17, 2018, 02:59:52 AM »
Bookbub released an infographic in today's email regarding % of their subscribers who buy full price books.

https://insights.bookbub.com/do-bookbub-members-buy-full-priced-books/?utm_source=pemail_full-priced-books-infographic&utm_medium=email

Although they kind of shoot themselves in the foot noting that full priced release of Stephen King (foot shot #1) sold 1500 copies (foot shot #2, that's a small #) at 14.99 in a new release of the week campaign as an example of full price campaigns working.
 
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David VanDyke

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Re: Free and cheap...A race to the bottom!
« Reply #48 on: October 17, 2018, 06:55:46 AM »
What Stephen King sells is proof of only that Stephen King's name sells books. It's like trying to prove something about a single family restaurant by what Corporate McDonalds is able to do.

I find it interesting that, unlike their standard promos which are underpriced (but they are rationed and curated), they're trying to push and advertise the New Release promos. In other words, they're not selling as many as they'd like.

Simple solution? Lower the dang price. That will sell slots, and they can always bump up their prices later.
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ragdoll

Re: Free and cheap...A race to the bottom!
« Reply #49 on: October 17, 2018, 07:56:33 AM »
David - yep, don't tell us what SK sold, but, really, if it only pushed 1500 copies via their promo, that is the opposite of a selling point! With that result, definitely makes the service look overpriced.