Author Topic: Free and cheap...A race to the bottom!  (Read 18018 times)

Tonyonline

Free and cheap...A race to the bottom!
« on: October 08, 2018, 10:49:43 PM »
Free and cheap. A race to the bottom, I hear this said more and more but does that really mean a progressively lowering or deterioration of standards? I think not. Anyhow...

I have a day job and so for me writing is a hobby. Luckily I also have some spare cash to give the books I write a push, but when does pushing a book to get sales, stop, and making some cash begin?
My first two books are (arguably :icon_rolleyes:) non-fiction, one of them sells a lot more than the other, and surprisingly the other better seller of the two, sells paperbacks, the point is, that I can make a little cash from that book, as in, it pays for itself, advertising, and some.
Because I was moving into fiction, I wasn't sure what to expect. Yes, low sales, being an unknown author, but I didn't think I'd have to be giving it away, or put another way, paying to give it away!
I don't do free and I'm not going to run a book promotion that cost me to give my work away, so instead I pay to advertise the book and do exactly the same thing! Because I have to sell for 0.99, but what do you do  :shrug ?
Keep on keeping on. Write more well written books, have them professionally edited, have a good cover and blurb, advertise them and make nothing...repeat.

To be truthful I have no idea where I'm going with this post but I thought I'd ask those of you making a living from fiction, because it seems a very different beast to non-fiction, in that non-fiction doesn't require being constantly fed free and 0.99...When does pushing a book to get sales, stop, and making some cash begin? But please don't get me wrong! I enjoy writing, I don't have to earn from it, like most hobbies I understand it will cost me...But all the same, interested in your views and comments :heart:.
 
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Arches

Re: Free and cheap...A race to the bottom!
« Reply #1 on: October 08, 2018, 11:52:32 PM »
You already answered your question. Keep on keeping on, as you said. The one thing you didn't mention is that it's probably best to focus on one genre as much as possible. That helps a lot in gaining a readership. Marketing one book is almost impossible, but marketing one that feeds into a series can be very profitable.

Like you, I have a day job, and I don't intend to quit it, but I have cut back my hours considerably. Writing as a job is possible but it's very hit or miss. I've earned enough from writing to live frugally, but my sales fluctuate considerable depending on how my latest books are received. Keep the day job as long as you can, and that makes it easier to enjoy being a writer.
 

LilyBLily

Re: Free and cheap...A race to the bottom!
« Reply #2 on: October 09, 2018, 12:02:26 AM »
I guess I shouldn't answer, since I don't make a living from writing. 

Discounting is pointless if you've only got one book, but you can always do AMS, FB, or BB ads at full price. The first two, AMS, and FB, will deliver for sure if you properly target your ad. I'm not sold on the BB CPC/CPM ads being that productive, because BookBub is a discount newsletter and its audience expects discounts. Not so, Facebook or Amazon. 

I've been quite happy with sales of my $5.99 women's fiction thanks to an AMS ad that keeps on delivering. If I ever get a BB feature ad, the kind that could cost me $1458, I would discount to 99 cents and hope that people would buy my other two similarly branded stand-alone women's fiction novels. But I'm not actually trying for a BB feature ad right now, because most people I hear from on these forums are using discounting to sell series and there is little anecdotal evidence that discounting works the same way for stand alones.   :icon_think:
 
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Mark Gardner

Re: Free and cheap...A race to the bottom!
« Reply #3 on: October 09, 2018, 12:12:12 AM »
My biggest issue with the race to the bottom is that my art is worth something (not saying anyone else's isn't), and I refuse to devalue my art for a quick sale (not saying that anyone who does discount their work doesn't have value.)

My War of the Worlds: Retaliation co-author lives in the same area, and we work together in broadcasting. As a result, we often end up going to the same events, and the organizers often put the two of us side-by-side. I price my work at industry standard retail pricing, and he goes with the discount pricing. My paperbacks retail for $15 (a $10 margin), and he retails his at $8 (about a $3 margin as far as I can tell.) As far as full-length novels are concerned, I have four, and he has six, plus the one we co-authored. He also has two non-fiction sports books, and I also have a short story collection, and three paperback novellas (the collection is $15, and the novellas are $10 each.)

I always sell more books than he does at these events. Plus, my profits are much higher than his. He discounts when you purchase multiple books, I do not. I add value to multiple book purchases by emailing electronic versions, or for large sales, audiobook codes. In fact, when I was a guest at the 2018 Phoenix Comicon, the celebrity bookstore that was my host, priced my books at $20.

Some people are worried about obscurity, and think that setting their prices at industry standards will prevent sales, but I've not found that to be true. I'd rather price my art fairly, and if I make sales then I make sales.
 
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DrewMcGunn

Re: Free and cheap...A race to the bottom!
« Reply #4 on: October 09, 2018, 12:32:36 AM »
If your book is a stand-alone, you have to decide what your goals are. Because at 99c, it's hard for your advertising dollars to turn your book profitable. For many authors their advertising spend turns into profits because of read/buy through. Were it me, I would limit my ad spend to a low experimental amount while only having a single book out (be it a series or genre or something that ties your books together). As you build on that and have more books to offer, you should have more options about how to advertise your books without completely burning through profit.

Also, and this is just my opinion (I know others have different views), I think you need some social proof on your fiction book. Use an ARC service and get some reviews.

Over the past 30 days since your book was released there have been over 4,000 books released on Kindle in your genre of Mystery, Thriller & Suspense in English. IMO, reviews can help to draw attention to your book.

Of course as with most things we discuss here, YMMV.


Drew McGunn
 

Max

Re: Free and cheap...A race to the bottom!
« Reply #5 on: October 09, 2018, 12:45:31 AM »
Agreed, nonfic and fic are two different creatures. I don’t do nonfic, so I won’t say a thing about it. I make a living in fic. Specifically romance.

When creating the book, one can think of it as art, or a masterpiece, or a part of one’s soul. But when one is done with it, and releases it, it’s not that anymore. Until that artist can divorce himself/herself from their book and let it become a product, they will possibly internally struggle with giving it away.

The practice of loss leaders works. Else Walmart, Sam’s Warehouse, and every other place wouldn’t be giving samples away in the hopes the sampler will fall in love and buy the product.

I won’t let my emotions drive my business decisions. I won’t try to convince someone that their book is not art, but until one stops thinking of it in that way, they very well may hamstring themselves.

These are my opinions. Others may have different ones. They may even have different experiences. I don’t want to sway them. They can’t sway me. But when you evaluate the market and books, particularly when it comes to indies, see what most are doing. If that many do this, would they do it if it didn’t work?

PS. I come from this with the view that one wants to make the most money possible. And I assume that one has several books in a series, because otherwise there's no point in giving anything away.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2018, 12:52:39 AM by Max »
 
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Bill Hiatt

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Re: Free and cheap...A race to the bottom!
« Reply #6 on: October 09, 2018, 01:07:25 AM »
I agree that there is such a thing as pricing too low, but I'm having difficulty defining what industry standard really is.

I've heard a lot about trad paperbacks in the $15 range, and some of them are, but here are some examples that suggest that the "industry standard" is quite flexible (at least in terms of how much the book actually retails for).

Ready Player One: $8.79 (but discounted from $16; $12.80 at BN)
Altered Carbon: $10.87 (but discounted from $16; $14.40 at BN) (subsequent books in the series are progressively more expensive)
Circe $11.59 (discounted from $16.99; no paperback at BN)
Alchemist $11.34 (discounted from $16.99; $11.34 at BN)
Cursed by Fire $9.99 (not available at BN) (small publisher)
Paper Magician $10.99 (Amazon imprint)
An Easy Death (Charlaine Harris) $19.21 (paperback not available at BN) (small publisher, though Kindle Edition is put out by Simon and Schuster)
Night Shift (Charlaine Harris) $8.99 ($9.59 at BN)
The Elven $10.99 (discounted from $14.99; the Kindle is $1.99) (Amazon Imprint)
City of Bones $5.35 (discounted from $13.99; $11.99 at BN)
Dark Tower 1--Gunslinger $8.88 (discounted from $16.00; $12.80 at BN)

If there is an industry standard visible here, it's hard to tell. From a practical standpoint, it's not the list price but the actual retail price that's more relevant to me. If someone's shopping around, and one of my paperbacks is priced at $15.00, while major bestsellers with movie tie-ins are priced at far less, I would think that would be a problem in terms of sales. Granted that Amazon discounts far more than most, but more people are also shopping on Amazon than any other single site.

What variables drive paperback prices? From this small bit of data, it's not possible to tell. It appears that major bestsellers with lots of media attention are sometimes priced lower. Small publishers sometimes price lower. Amazon imprints sometimes price lower. The length of the book doesn't seem to matter. Nor does the author (look at the wild difference in the two Charlaine Harris titles, though they are put out by different publishers).

The situation is complicated by the fact that Amazon and other outlets are erratic in the way they discount. Works in demand by major publishers are almost always discounted, sometimes radically. Indie titles? The whole time I was in expanded distribution and had substantially higher prices, I saw only very small discounts or none at all (and none at BN). Ironically, I sometimes saw bigger discounts when I was priced lower, and occasionally insane ones, like a $8.25 book for $2.00--the bot was broken for a while, I guess. My point is that, if we hit the industry standard for paperbacks, but we don't get the "industry standard" discount Amazon applies, we end up looking far more expensive than works by better known authors. Is this really a good idea?




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okey dokey

Re: Free and cheap...A race to the bottom!
« Reply #7 on: October 09, 2018, 01:57:47 AM »
I'm with Article94 (Mark Gardner)

I don't agree with this quote:

". . . Walmart, Sam’s Warehouse, and every other place wouldn’t be giving samples away in the hopes the sampler will fall in love and buy the product."

Their samples are NOT the product. They are little pieces of the product (food). Their samples are samples.
Does BMW give away sample cars? Maybe you would really like the car and buy next year's car.
Nope. No BMW samples.

Indie publishing might be the only (or at least one of the few) that gives away the whole product as a sample.
Discount? Yes if you want to. But the whole product for free?

Walmart won't give you a whole package of pizzas as a sample. Just a bite.


 
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Mark Gardner

Re: Free and cheap...A race to the bottom!
« Reply #8 on: October 09, 2018, 05:17:10 AM »
And as far as I'm concerned, the "Look Inside" is the sample of my work.

I'm with Article94 (Mark Gardner)

I don't agree with this quote:

". . . Walmart, Sam’s Warehouse, and every other place wouldn’t be giving samples away in the hopes the sampler will fall in love and buy the product."

Their samples are NOT the product. They are little pieces of the product (food). Their samples are samples.
Does BMW give away sample cars? Maybe you would really like the car and buy next year's car.
Nope. No BMW samples.

Indie publishing might be the only (or at least one of the few) that gives away the whole product as a sample.
Discount? Yes if you want to. But the whole product for free?

Walmart won't give you a whole package of pizzas as a sample. Just a bite.
 

Amanda M. Lee

Re: Free and cheap...A race to the bottom!
« Reply #9 on: October 09, 2018, 05:23:36 AM »
I'm with Article94 (Mark Gardner)

I don't agree with this quote:

". . . Walmart, Sam’s Warehouse, and every other place wouldn’t be giving samples away in the hopes the sampler will fall in love and buy the product."

Their samples are NOT the product. They are little pieces of the product (food). Their samples are samples.
Does BMW give away sample cars? Maybe you would really like the car and buy next year's car.
Nope. No BMW samples.

Indie publishing might be the only (or at least one of the few) that gives away the whole product as a sample.
Discount? Yes if you want to. But the whole product for free?

Walmart won't give you a whole package of pizzas as a sample. Just a bite.
Or you could look at a freebie book as the sample of an entire book catalog. Personally, I know without a shadow of a doubt I wouldn't be where I am today without free giveaways. I have a huge one coming up Sunday. I will give an omnibus away for free and make absolutely huge numbers on the sell-through to the rest of the books. It is what it is. You don't have to give your books away for free. No one is making you. Those who do are making a business decision and if it didn't work, they wouldn't still be doing it.

WasAnn

Re: Free and cheap...A race to the bottom!
« Reply #10 on: October 09, 2018, 05:54:04 AM »
You're speaking a frustration that many authors feel. It does seem that so many people have freebies and sale prices and those books are moving, but what you're seeing is the promos, not the day to day.

Amanda is an outlier...in every respect...but, in my opinion, she's become an outlier by levels of production that rival the James Patterson Stable Of Writers Who Are Not James Patterson and understanding how to get readers to buy books. Look there for inspiration, but if you're a person with a book a year production and a single fiction book out, her methods are probably not going to work the same for you.

Free Samples have been a foundation for sales since forever.

You just have to decide what your sample is.

Once you've got thirty books or a hundred books or fifteen books in three series (or whatever) your notion of what a sample is may change from what you think when you have three books.

Many others are simply tired of doing calculus to organize a never-ending parade of promos, figuring out what to bounce and what that will do as a bank shot for which other books...etc.

Some don't want to discount ever, but have patiently built up reader bases with dedication and go with that.

I do this for love, not money, and I hate to market, so don't do me. I scattershot and write whatever the f^c* I want to. I'm a good writer and I give good story, but I'm not down with the calculus side of it, which will limit me unless lightning strikes again and I don't jump out of the way *again* because it's in the way of my overly elaborate smoothie.

The only thing that seems very clear and obvious...write more books. You have no choices or options to take up the calculus (or not) unless you have more books to throw into the equation.

Or not throw into the equation.


Science Fiction is my game.
 
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Amanda M. Lee

Re: Free and cheap...A race to the bottom!
« Reply #11 on: October 09, 2018, 06:08:55 AM »
Actually, I know people writing 1-2 books a year who are making free work for them. Yes, you need a backlist. Once you have that backlist, though, free moves the most books and is still one of the best marketing avenues out there.

WasAnn

Re: Free and cheap...A race to the bottom!
« Reply #12 on: October 09, 2018, 06:11:12 AM »
Actually, I know people writing 1-2 books a year who are making free work for them. Yes, you need a backlist. Once you have that backlist, though, free moves the most books and is still one of the best marketing avenues out there.

Like I said, a person's idea of sample size can change with more books.

Here is my quote:
Quote
Look there for inspiration, but if you're a person with a book a year production and a single fiction book out, her methods are probably not going to work the same for you.

I feel like I need a lawyer to parse everything for every possible meaning sometimes when I post.


Science Fiction is my game.
 
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Becca Mills

Re: Free and cheap...A race to the bottom!
« Reply #13 on: October 09, 2018, 06:59:25 AM »
I think free is scalable and can be helpful at any level of production. I only have two novels out. The first has been free for most of its life; the second has made about $35,000 and still sells a couple copies a day, four years out, due to giveaways of the first (in consistently but cheaply promoted boxed sets). If I had more books out, that freebie would be leveraging much more income, but even with just one paid book, having a freebie has made writing a comfortably self-sustaining activity for me. I don't feel devalued at all, honestly. I feel more like I'm striking a deal with people whose time and attention are worth a lot to them: Look, I know know your time is valuable, and I know this is off-genre and a little weird, but I like it, and I think you might like it ... would you please give it a try? Because it's free, a lot say "yes," and I'm able to sift out the relative few of those who actually turn out to be my peeps.
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munboy

Re: Free and cheap...A race to the bottom!
« Reply #14 on: October 09, 2018, 01:19:13 PM »
Try it. Offer something for free for a period of time and see how your other books sell as opposed to when your book is priced normally.

The problem I've found is with free books is they sit on people's devices along with 100 other free books. There's no telling when/if they'll get around to reading it.

For me, once I finished my fourth book, I started offering the first book in my trilogy for free, using it to build a newsletter list. That book generated sales for the trilogy and my fourth book. I saw the sharp increase in sales and KDP reads.

Now, I'm moving away from free to cheap on that book (.99) to continue generating sales. I'm hoping to eventually be able to release a book as a sale price but priced normally beyond when it's first released.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2018, 02:35:32 AM by munboy »
 

Simon Haynes

Re: Free and cheap...A race to the bottom!
« Reply #15 on: October 09, 2018, 01:53:56 PM »
I went with permafree for the first in my series, then kept writing more in the same series. I got to 8 books in 7 years before I finally swtiched back to paid.

I changed back, because my focus now is on building an engaged mailing list. Now I have the freebie on bookfunnel, where it requires joining my list. It's $2.99 on all bookstores.

I've done the same with three other first-in-series. All my 'book ones' can be obtained by joining my ML.

Bear in mind I have 17 novels out there, plus 12 shorts and a novella.

 
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Simon Haynes

Re: Free and cheap...A race to the bottom!
« Reply #16 on: October 09, 2018, 02:15:12 PM »
To add to this ... I'm paying roughly $5/day for one facebook ad which offers my first novel in exchange for a mailing list signup. I'm getting 8-10 subscribers per day with that. which works out 50c each.

But it's not about buying emails, these are people who see the cover and the blurb, decide it's something they might like, and then join the list to get a free copy.

My ad is highly targeted, as you'd expect with facebook. These people enjoy similar works by big name authors, and they're in the right age range to get my cultural references.

In three years, if I have a list with 12k such subscribers, I'll consider that a major success.
 
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Lorri Moulton

Re: Free and cheap...A race to the bottom!
« Reply #17 on: October 10, 2018, 02:04:23 AM »
You don't have to give your books away for free. No one is making you. Those who do are making a business decision and if it didn't work, they wouldn't still be doing it.

Exactly. 

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David VanDyke

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Re: Free and cheap...A race to the bottom!
« Reply #18 on: October 10, 2018, 12:45:17 PM »
People who moan about the race to the bottom forget that books have been widely cheap and free within the past, say, 80 years or so--ever since pulp paperbacks flooded the market and ended up in bargain bins, garage sales and flea markets. Oh, and libraries. And library liquidation sales. And Goodwill type shops. And swaps, and borrowing from friends, and so on and so on.

If you aren't picky, you can get tons of print books very cheap. The current free/cheap market is the digital equivalent.
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Trioxin 245

Re: Free and cheap...A race to the bottom!
« Reply #19 on: October 10, 2018, 08:21:28 PM »
In regards to writing fiction I have been doing that for a year. So far my best ROI is writing another book. 
 
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LilyBLily

Re: Free and cheap...A race to the bottom!
« Reply #20 on: October 10, 2018, 10:56:07 PM »
People who moan about the race to the bottom forget that books have been widely cheap and free within the past, say, 80 years or so--ever since pulp paperbacks flooded the market and ended up in bargain bins, garage sales and flea markets. Oh, and libraries. And library liquidation sales. And Goodwill type shops. And swaps, and borrowing from friends, and so on and so on.

If you aren't picky, you can get tons of print books very cheap. The current free/cheap market is the digital equivalent.

Even before the 25-cent Pocket Book paperback, Grosset & Dunlap was reprinting hardcover books in cheap hardcover editions  a year after the original came out. Doubleday's stable of book clubs and Book-of-the-Month Club (which did huge business for decades) did cheap hardcover reprints (on poorer paper) and/or gave away a certain number of books just for joining. Many books were serialized in magazines and newspapers, too, so the incremental cost of the book was nothing. In the 20th century, there was always a cheap alternative.
 
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Simon Haynes

Re: Free and cheap...A race to the bottom!
« Reply #21 on: October 10, 2018, 11:21:45 PM »
Pretty sure Penguin was first created as a way to print cheap copies of classics, so that everyone could afford them.

Anyway, with books it's not about the price. People generally buy the books they want to read, not whatever's free or cheap. E.g. there was a WWII fighter pilot autobiography I wanted, and I paid about $30 to get a paperback copy from the UK.

That was the last thing I've read for some weeks now, despite grabbing any number of bookbub/barbarian freebies since.


 

Tonyonline

Re: Free and cheap...A race to the bottom!
« Reply #22 on: October 11, 2018, 03:19:55 AM »
Thanks for all the comments and viewpoints, lots of food for thought...Which I'll be munching over for quite a while.
 

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Re: Free and cheap...A race to the bottom!
« Reply #23 on: October 12, 2018, 11:16:00 AM »
You're speaking a frustration that many authors feel. It does seem that so many people have freebies and sale prices and those books are moving, but what you're seeing is the promos, not the day to day.

Amanda is an outlier...in every respect...but, in my opinion, she's become an outlier by levels of production that rival the James Patterson Stable Of Writers Who Are Not James Patterson and understanding how to get readers to buy books. Look there for inspiration, but if you're a person with a book a year production and a single fiction book out, her methods are probably not going to work the same for you.

Free Samples have been a foundation for sales since forever.

You just have to decide what your sample is.

Once you've got thirty books or a hundred books or fifteen books in three series (or whatever) your notion of what a sample is may change from what you think when you have three books.

Many others are simply tired of doing calculus to organize a never-ending parade of promos, figuring out what to bounce and what that will do as a bank shot for which other books...etc.

Some don't want to discount ever, but have patiently built up reader bases with dedication and go with that.

I do this for love, not money, and I hate to market, so don't do me. I scattershot and write whatever the f^c* I want to. I'm a good writer and I give good story, but I'm not down with the calculus side of it, which will limit me unless lightning strikes again and I don't jump out of the way *again* because it's in the way of my overly elaborate smoothie.

The only thing that seems very clear and obvious...write more books. You have no choices or options to take up the calculus (or not) unless you have more books to throw into the equation.

Or not throw into the equation.
:clap:
I absolutely love this answer. We each need to do what works best for us and our books. I am also not doing this for uber money...although I *do* like making money and strive to increase my royalty monies with each publication. But I also have given thousands of books away. Not even kidding. I've given half my list away and even though I could technically be making money from those books, instead I get word of mouth, sell through to my other books, reviews, and an audience. Free has worked the absolute best for me and I've used it in different forms for the past couple of years. I love free and am glad it's an option for us. However, it's not something I'll likely do forever. At some point I'll have more paid than free books.
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Re: Free and cheap...A race to the bottom!
« Reply #24 on: October 12, 2018, 11:33:30 AM »
If it means I can push my 5-figures a month into 6-figures a month, you can devalue my "art" any which way you want, and twice on Sundays.
 
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Robin

Re: Free and cheap...A race to the bottom!
« Reply #25 on: October 13, 2018, 12:26:56 AM »
In regards to writing fiction I have been doing that for a year. So far my best ROI is writing another book.

Agreed, without a doubt writing another book gives me the best ROI. I release a new novel every 3-4 months.

I hated the thought of giving away my books for free, but when I do I definitely see an uptick in page reads on all my other books. I do think free promotions are worth it, but only if you have other books in your catalogue for readers to explore.

Like others have said it is an individual business decision, but you'll never know if it works for you unless you try it!
 

PJ Post

Re: Free and cheap...A race to the bottom!
« Reply #26 on: October 13, 2018, 05:26:47 AM »
I think it's important to remember that when we discuss 'the race to the bottom', we're talking about it in the past tense. The race to the bottom happened six years ago when Indies undercut the prevailing $15.99 traditionally published e-book price by lowering their own prices, not to be competitive through careful analysis, but simply as low as Amazon would allow, which happened to be 99 cents. If they could have lowered them to a nickel, they would have done that too. The reason the $2.99 price point is seen as having the best ROI is because that's the lowest price available for the 70% return. So the data centers around that artificial equilibrium point. Again, if the 70% return rate was available at $1.49, then that would be the most lucrative price point.

These are all artificial constructs, which is why traditional publishing was railing so hard against us. We, the collective Indie 'we', managed to undervalue the entire publishing industry, destroying careers and century-old processes that really did support a broad foundation of literature, such as financing long-term non-fiction explorations or nurturing up and coming mid-list authors. Tragedy of the Commons

By the time KU2.0 came along, Indies couldn't lower their prices any further, so they began assembling massive box sets for the same 99 cents, effectively offering an even lower per page price, which continued to devalue literature.

It's clear what happened and when - and even why, however, I think that discussion is better left to academia at this point. Like it or not, we're in a new paradigm now, as are all creatives: writers, musicians, painters, etc.

Readers are conditioned to super-cheap books. As noted up-thread, we've drastically reduced the price of traditionally published books as well. Now, it's become a self-fulfilling prophecy, a snake chasing its own tale. To compete, we must lower our prices, which reinforces the consumer expectation that books should be cheap. Streaming et al has done the same thing to the music industry. I don't think records like The Dark Side of the Moon or Sgt. Peppers could ever happen now.

___


With all of that said, the free book (creative product) strategy is here to stay and it definitely works, how well depends on how successful the publisher is at leveraging it.

I think the discussion needs to be re-framed, not as a race to the bottom (because we're already on the bottom), but how to elevate the inherent value of our brands. I think the best way to do this is to think of our books as monopolies as opposed to fungible widgets. Yes, they are one voice in the maelstrom of entertainment options, but they can also be unique voices, unique in a way that no other entertainment choice can satisfy, be it character or prose or story. No one else tells the stories I tell, and no one else tells stories like I do. How unique I am when compared to other writers is up for debate, but that doesn't change the focus of the strategy.

This is why I am so against writing to market. By definition, it cannot be unique or original or have anything meaningful to say. If you are writing unique characters and stories, or exploring difficult themes, then you're not writing to market, even if you think you are. WTM is all about fulfilling expectations, not about introducing new ones.

I think the way forward is going to be some form of hyper-differentiation branding, and because so many people have become creatives, and really good ones at that, it's going to take some serious chops to make it even then. I got disgusted with the whole pay-to-play click-ad thing last year and have stopped promoting and publishing altogether while I try to figure out how to leverage my brand. Sometimes the solution is throwing money at the problem, sometimes the solution requires a completely different approach.

I'm not having much fun with the current crop of entertainment options out there, be it television, books, movies or music. Everything at the top, the 'bestsellers' so to speak, is stale and empty-headed, soulless plastic rehashes of everything that ever worked before. I think, to use a sports analogy, that rather than swinging for the fences with every book, we should focus on base hits, building up a reputation for a specific niche (target market) that defines our brand, which may be a recognized genre, or some other creative segmentation strategy.

The point being, that instead of playing the commodity game, find your place in a niche market (or markets), where you can raise your prices appreciably and still be competitive.

You know, in my humble opinion and all that.

EC Sheedy

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Re: Free and cheap...A race to the bottom!
« Reply #27 on: October 13, 2018, 04:10:59 PM »
PJ Post, thanks for nudging my brain to think again. I need to give some thought to pricing.

New book out, not doing any of the big launch stuff.
Book dying.
Another book due out in a couple of months . . .  :confused:

While pricing is undoubtedly only one of the problems, your comments were still an immense help. I think I'll do some deep breathing . . .

 :goodpost:
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Simon Haynes

Re: Free and cheap...A race to the bottom!
« Reply #28 on: October 13, 2018, 04:25:20 PM »
I may have mentioned this before, but I price at $4.99 for all my books, barring first-in-series, which are $2.99.

The price gives me enough leeway to buy some clicks on various ad platforms.

Everything I write is part of one series or another, and every novel is set in the same universe, with crossovers from various characters. Even the middle-grade novels and many of my short stories.

My intention is to build a fan base, not sell books. To that end, I've switched from pushing freebies on all and sundry to focussing on building my mailing list, as mentioned above. I offer all my first-in-series books free, via bookfunnel, and I'm now getting 20-30 new signups per day thanks to CPC ads.

I've created Alpha reading teams, (40 people, chapters as I write them), Beta reading teams (40 others, ARCs) and a Reviewer team of maybe 200 people who get every new release, free.

I have a signup process which hands out a couple of freebies, introduces me to the people who are kind enough to sign up, and offers them a spot on the review team.

I've all but abandoned newsletter swaps, because they feel a bit too spammy to me.

Since I'm writing a book every 4-6 weeks right now, there's plenty for me to share when I do put out a newsletter, but I've started focussing on smaller segments of the list each time, instead of blasting everyone with a generic newsy email.

 
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PJ Post

Re: Free and cheap...A race to the bottom!
« Reply #29 on: October 14, 2018, 12:54:01 AM »
My intention is to build a fan base, not sell books.

It's not a new idea, but I still think this is where things are going in the future. We see it reflected in all of the featured artists showing up on new recordings - it keeps the artists relevant and gives them something to promote, even if it isn't theirs. The goal is celebrity, not direct sales, because celebrity generates income on its own, even for narrowly defined market segments (niches). It's a different game. The philosophy explained: 1,000 True Fans

Lots of fans are going to buy lots of books. It feels like the same thing on the surface, but as Simon points out, it really is a fundamentally different approach.
 
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elleoco

Re: Free and cheap...A race to the bottom!
« Reply #30 on: October 14, 2018, 07:55:34 AM »
If you aren't picky, you can get tons of print books very cheap. The current free/cheap market is the digital equivalent.

I think that's the key. A lot of us who are picky long ago stopped considering free and cheap unless from a known and liked author. Probably there are less of us.

dgcasey

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Re: Free and cheap...A race to the bottom!
« Reply #31 on: October 14, 2018, 04:43:34 PM »
Indie publishing might be the only (or at least one of the few) that gives away the whole product as a sample.
Discount? Yes if you want to. But the whole product for free?

I hear you. I think the Look Inside is plenty enough for a reader to get an idea as to whether they will like the book or not.
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Amanda M. Lee

Re: Free and cheap...A race to the bottom!
« Reply #32 on: October 15, 2018, 03:16:42 AM »
I may have mentioned this before, but I price at $4.99 for all my books, barring first-in-series, which are $2.99.

The price gives me enough leeway to buy some clicks on various ad platforms.

Everything I write is part of one series or another, and every novel is set in the same universe, with crossovers from various characters. Even the middle-grade novels and many of my short stories.

My intention is to build a fan base, not sell books. To that end, I've switched from pushing freebies on all and sundry to focussing on building my mailing list, as mentioned above. I offer all my first-in-series books free, via bookfunnel, and I'm now getting 20-30 new signups per day thanks to CPC ads.

I've created Alpha reading teams, (40 people, chapters as I write them), Beta reading teams (40 others, ARCs) and a Reviewer team of maybe 200 people who get every new release, free.

I have a signup process which hands out a couple of freebies, introduces me to the people who are kind enough to sign up, and offers them a spot on the review team.

I've all but abandoned newsletter swaps, because they feel a bit too spammy to me.

Since I'm writing a book every 4-6 weeks right now, there's plenty for me to share when I do put out a newsletter, but I've started focussing on smaller segments of the list each time, instead of blasting everyone with a generic newsy email.
I'm confused. You saying you're willing to pay for newsletter sign-ups to build a fan base. I get that. It's pretty much the opposite of my game plan, but I get it. Others have tried it and made it work for a time. How does that work with ARCS and stuff, though? Your September release only has four reviews and if you're getting 20 new people on your list a day, that equals about 600 people a month. That's a lot of people to add, and kudos, but they don't look to be buying. What's the plan to change that? I'm honestly curious. I'm not trying to be difficult. I simply don't think this method works over the long haul and I'm curious why you do think it will work.
 

Lorri Moulton

Re: Free and cheap...A race to the bottom!
« Reply #33 on: October 15, 2018, 03:34:50 AM »
I love free.  It's been very good to me and by free I mean (usually) taking advantage of the five free days with KU.  Always free doesn't convey any urgency.  Free for a short time gives readers more incentive to grab that book today.

I also do a ton of social media and don't have a mailing list.  I'm not saying my way is the best...and certainly not the only way to do this.  It might not work, but at least I'm not going into debt to find out. 

When I finish my series, I may try paid advertising.  I think the most important thing I've learned in business is to be flexible.  Do something until it doesn't work as well anymore and be willing to try new things.  Especially if they're free!  :angel:

Author of Romance, Fantasy, Fairytales, Mystery & Suspense, and Historical Non-Fiction @ Lavender Cottage Books
 

Tom Wood

Re: Free and cheap...A race to the bottom!
« Reply #34 on: October 15, 2018, 03:59:16 AM »
... My intention is to build a fan base, not sell books. To that end, I've switched from pushing freebies on all and sundry to focussing on building my mailing list, as mentioned above. I offer all my first-in-series books free, via bookfunnel, and I'm now getting 20-30 new signups per day thanks to CPC ads. ...
I'm confused. You saying you're willing to pay for newsletter sign-ups to build a fan base. I get that. It's pretty much the opposite of my game plan, but I get it. Others have tried it and made it work for a time. How does that work with ARCS and stuff, though? Your September release only has four reviews and if you're getting 20 new people on your list a day, that equals about 600 people a month. That's a lot of people to add, and kudos, but they don't look to be buying. What's the plan to change that? I'm honestly curious. I'm not trying to be difficult. I simply don't think this method works over the long haul and I'm curious why you do think it will work.

I'm sure Simon will step in here, but what he is doing sounds a lot like what Mark Dawson (Self Publishing Formula) has been advocating for a while. Dawson is frequently quoted as saying that he'd rather have a sign-up than a sale. It has to do with sell-throughs to the rest of the series.
 
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Amanda M. Lee

Re: Free and cheap...A race to the bottom!
« Reply #35 on: October 15, 2018, 04:09:54 AM »
... My intention is to build a fan base, not sell books. To that end, I've switched from pushing freebies on all and sundry to focussing on building my mailing list, as mentioned above. I offer all my first-in-series books free, via bookfunnel, and I'm now getting 20-30 new signups per day thanks to CPC ads. ...
I'm confused. You saying you're willing to pay for newsletter sign-ups to build a fan base. I get that. It's pretty much the opposite of my game plan, but I get it. Others have tried it and made it work for a time. How does that work with ARCS and stuff, though? Your September release only has four reviews and if you're getting 20 new people on your list a day, that equals about 600 people a month. That's a lot of people to add, and kudos, but they don't look to be buying. What's the plan to change that? I'm honestly curious. I'm not trying to be difficult. I simply don't think this method works over the long haul and I'm curious why you do think it will work.

I'm sure Simon will step in here, but what he is doing sounds a lot like what Mark Dawson (Self Publishing Formula) has been advocating for a while. Dawson is frequently quoted as saying that he'd rather have a sign-up than a sale. It has to do with sell-throughs to the rest of the series.
Except there's obviously no sell-through happening. That's the point. If there's no sell-through, how does that plan work?
 
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Simon Haynes

Re: Free and cheap...A race to the bottom!
« Reply #36 on: October 15, 2018, 04:21:38 AM »
I'm confused. You saying you're willing to pay for newsletter sign-ups to build a fan base. I get that. It's pretty much the opposite of my game plan, but I get it. Others have tried it and made it work for a time. How does that work with ARCS and stuff, though? Your September release only has four reviews and if you're getting 20 new people on your list a day, that equals about 600 people a month. That's a lot of people to add, and kudos, but they don't look to be buying. What's the plan to change that? I'm honestly curious. I'm not trying to be difficult. I simply don't think this method works over the long haul and I'm curious why you do think it will work.

That's fine, I understand the line of questioning.

I've only been advertising list signups for 6 days. It's now hitting 40 per day, and yes, I've added over 200 in that time.

I have these new people identified in the database (by source), so I'll be checking their open/click rates over time, and if they're a lot lower than the average I'll have a rethink. Otherwise I'll keep adding (hopefully) 800-1200 a month.



Re the four reviews on the September 30th release:

I only sent out 39 review copies, because that was the size of the reviewer team back then. Reviews on Amazon.com won't be representative - partly because I'm wide, and also because more than half my market consists of UK, AU and CA readers.

(That said, there's currently the one review on amazon.co.uk. But I do tend to get spread very thin across multiple stores and countries. One reader in New Zealand managed to leave her review for the first book on Amazon.com, but that was only yesterday. She's about to start the second, which is the Sept release you mentioned.)

In the past 2 weeks my reviewer team has risen to 140 people, so hopefully that will mean a few more reviews for book three when it's released.

When I do get reviews they tend to be pretty good, so I'd really like to encourage more of them, believe me.

But here's the thing: I had a Bookbub 6 weeks ago which shifted over 6000 copies of my first omnibus at 99c. I've only had 13 reviews for that title on amazon.com in the 6 weeks since.

I used to wonder if maybe people buy my stuff and then stop reading halfway through. But that can't be the case, because my sellthrough figures tell me that at least half go on to buy all the rest of my novels. (Bookbub 99c deal excluded. The sellthrough to the second omnibus was more like 10%, but first, they got a 1000-page book which many won't have read yet, and second, Omni Two is $7.99)

Those sellthrough figures are what I'm banking on with this strategy. By the end of this month I'll have 18 novels all of which are set in the same universe, featuring various combinations of the same characters. If someone likes one, they ought to like the rest, which is why getting one into their hands for free has been my goal for the past 7 years.


Sorry, long post but it was partly for myself, to examine the variables and work out if what I'm trying to achieve made sense.

But yes, the lack of reviews across all of my books does get to me sometimes.


ETA: typos! Long post, and I bashed out 4k words today AND it's 2.30am here.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2018, 04:25:12 AM by Simon Haynes »
 
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Amanda M. Lee

Re: Free and cheap...A race to the bottom!
« Reply #37 on: October 15, 2018, 04:26:43 AM »
Basically you're saying you haven't implemented the new sign-ups yet. You should do a thread when you test those sign-ups. I'm sure a lot of people will be interested.
 
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Simon Haynes

Re: Free and cheap...A race to the bottom!
« Reply #38 on: October 15, 2018, 04:26:56 AM »
PS you know that stereotype about the reserved englishman? That's my typical reader! No wonder I don't get many reviews.

 

Simon Haynes

Re: Free and cheap...A race to the bottom!
« Reply #39 on: October 15, 2018, 04:28:31 AM »
Basically you're saying you haven't implemented the new sign-ups yet. You should do a thread when you test those sign-ups. I'm sure a lot of people will be interested.

Yes, correct. I've been adding them like crazy but only for 6 days.

I'm keen to see how they react too, and I will let you know.

 
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Luke Everhart

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Re: Free and cheap...A race to the bottom!
« Reply #40 on: October 15, 2018, 04:34:52 AM »
I guess the question of freebies as a marketing strategy recurs (a lot!) on the other forum and now here because of new authors, which is fine and understandable. But for those who've been around a bit... it's odd.
Immensely successful authors (and I mean 7 fig territory) that do free giveaways to bring in readers:
Mark Dawson
Amanda M Lee
Lindsay Buroker
Jana DeLeon
Kristin Painter
Everyone of which I first sampled because of a free book and I'm a regular reader of every single one of them now.
It works if you have 1) a backlist and 2) a good book.

...the undervaluing my art line is just an ego statement btw (not a dig but a description). There is no objective value to art. Absent market determination, which is dynamic and any such determination is a snapshot in time, that assumed value to be undercut is merely an arbitrary claim of ego. Best to put it out of mind, but if attached to the notion then Amanda's suggested perspective of your entire catalog as the product at least keeps it from thwarting a really viable strategy.
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Simon Haynes

Re: Free and cheap...A race to the bottom!
« Reply #41 on: October 15, 2018, 04:39:47 AM »
I think I mentioned this up-thread, but for the past seven years my strategy was 'book one free, sell the rest'

It worked, but since I changed the first back to 2.99 it's become my third-best-selling title, and this is a novel I first published in 2001.

I started a long thread about this decision on the Other Place, and I went back and forth between free, 99c, and 2.99 before settling on the latter.

Thing is, my new strategy is pretty similar to the old one. I'm still giving away 30-40 copies per day of a first-in-series, but now they join my mailing list too. AND the book is selling everywhere else, rather than being a perma-free everywhere. And, of course, if they enjoy book one there are 17 more waiting for them, all cunningly linked from the backmatter.


Finally, the royalties on the no-longer-perma-free books pay for the ads. Win win.


 

PJ Post

Re: Free and cheap...A race to the bottom!
« Reply #42 on: October 15, 2018, 05:40:49 AM »
I think the tough part of this discussion is understanding the actual dynamics at play, not the least of which is understanding critical mass. I've known lots of successful business people who had no clue how they became successful, although they thought they did. And when the market shifted, they went under. (This is not directed at anyone here, just an observation from my business career demonstrating that not everything is as straightforward as one might believe - even when the data appears to support those conclusions - I give you New Coke). When success was achieved is just as important as how. Everything is connected, and these hard to identify relationships influence everything, including the market itself - as a result, market dynamics change over time.

This is important because it makes emulating these successful strategies really tricky, because we don't always know what the primary drivers are.

I've always maintained that, beyond the visibility and marketing basics, it's the 'Art' component that's making these people successful over time - that is, they write really good books, which, theoretically, feeds into the True Fan approach. That's why they get lots of reviews quickly, the fans have a vested interest in the author doing well. Every review validates them as a fan. It's a niche celebrity thing. It's so weird when writers reject this possibility; it's as if they'd rather be known as a savvy business person than an accomplished artist. I don't get it. Maybe it's the luck versus work debate? Anyway, there was a whole long thread about it on KB a while back.

But, beyond the Art thing, we're up against a post-scarcity, zero-marginal cost dynamic, which has led to insane over-saturation, and that goes for all of the various entertainment segments. Normal market drivers no longer exist. And it's from this chaos that ad-click companies found a market to elevate product visibility above the noise. I wonder if Amazon earns more from book AMS than they do from the book sales themselves.
 
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dgcasey

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Re: Free and cheap...A race to the bottom!
« Reply #43 on: October 15, 2018, 07:09:17 AM »
It worked, but since I changed the first back to 2.99 it's become my third-best-selling title, and this is a novel I first published in 2001.

My plan, after I finished the third book in my trilogy, is to take the first book to $1.99, with the other two at the regular $3.99.

Now, the question I have is, The Tales of Garlan is a prequel to The Chronicles of Wyndweir. I'm wondering if I should actually put The Chronicles of Wyndweir on the front cover of that book and make it an actual part of the series? Maybe call it Book 0.5 or something like that.
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David VanDyke

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Re: Free and cheap...A race to the bottom!
« Reply #44 on: October 15, 2018, 11:51:16 AM »

...the undervaluing my art line is just an ego statement btw (not a dig but a description). There is no objective value to art. Absent market determination, which is dynamic and any such determination is a snapshot in time, that assumed value to be undercut is merely an arbitrary claim of ego. Best to put it out of mind, but if attached to the notion then Amanda's suggested perspective of your entire catalog as the product at least keeps it from thwarting a really viable strategy.

Absolutely.

Even monetary value needs to be valued over the life of the copyright, not by the price per copy of the book. So many people seem to be arguing (from ego, as you say) that the price of a copy needs to reflect some gut feeling about value.

But, even before ebooks, books were deeply discounted or ended up in the free bin. What mattered was, how much did the author get for writing the book? Before ebooks, if an author got a big advance, say, $200K, that was probably all they'd ever get. To the author, that's what the IP ended up being worth, and it didn't matter at all what Waldenbooks sold a copy for.
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Cathleen

Re: Free and cheap...A race to the bottom!
« Reply #45 on: October 15, 2018, 01:33:38 PM »
The Tales of Garlan is a prequel to The Chronicles of Wyndweir. I'm wondering if I should actually put The Chronicles of Wyndweir on the front cover of that book and make it an actual part of the series? Maybe call it Book 0.5 or something like that.

I don't pretend to be a marketing expert. I'm responding to this purely as a reader, as someone who has read many fantasy books.

Book .5 seems...improvised. An afterthought. Clearly not part of the main work, and therefore somewhat extraneous. Doesn't seem to be a helpful connotation for any marketing efforts.

No matter your personal thoughts on his work, I don't see how you can go wrong following the example of Tolkien, or possibly that of his publishers. (I'm not privy to all the nitty-gritty details.) LOTR is a three-volume set. The Hobbit is marketed as the prequel to LOTR.

Just my thoughts. :)
 

dgcasey

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Re: Free and cheap...A race to the bottom!
« Reply #46 on: October 15, 2018, 01:55:58 PM »
No matter your personal thoughts on his work, I don't see how you can go wrong following the example of Tolkien, or possibly that of his publishers. (I'm not privy to all the nitty-gritty details.) LOTR is a three-volume set. The Hobbit is marketed as the prequel to LOTR.

Yeah, what I'm thinking is that, where the three novels all say The Chronicles of Wyndweir ~ Book XXX on the covers, this one could say A Prequel to The Chronicles of Wyndweir.
I will not forget one line of this, not one day. I will always remember when the Doctor was me.
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ragdoll

Re: Free and cheap...A race to the bottom!
« Reply #47 on: October 17, 2018, 02:59:52 AM »
Bookbub released an infographic in today's email regarding % of their subscribers who buy full price books.

https://insights.bookbub.com/do-bookbub-members-buy-full-priced-books/?utm_source=pemail_full-priced-books-infographic&utm_medium=email

Although they kind of shoot themselves in the foot noting that full priced release of Stephen King (foot shot #1) sold 1500 copies (foot shot #2, that's a small #) at 14.99 in a new release of the week campaign as an example of full price campaigns working.
 
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David VanDyke

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Re: Free and cheap...A race to the bottom!
« Reply #48 on: October 17, 2018, 06:55:46 AM »
What Stephen King sells is proof of only that Stephen King's name sells books. It's like trying to prove something about a single family restaurant by what Corporate McDonalds is able to do.

I find it interesting that, unlike their standard promos which are underpriced (but they are rationed and curated), they're trying to push and advertise the New Release promos. In other words, they're not selling as many as they'd like.

Simple solution? Lower the dang price. That will sell slots, and they can always bump up their prices later.
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ragdoll

Re: Free and cheap...A race to the bottom!
« Reply #49 on: October 17, 2018, 07:56:33 AM »
David - yep, don't tell us what SK sold, but, really, if it only pushed 1500 copies via their promo, that is the opposite of a selling point! With that result, definitely makes the service look overpriced.
 

Al Macy (aka TromboneAl)

Re: Free and cheap...A race to the bottom!
« Reply #50 on: October 23, 2018, 07:55:52 AM »
... I refuse to devalue my art for a quick sale (not saying that anyone who does discount their work doesn't have value.)

I understand that point of view.

What about this hypothetical situation: You set a book's price to free for one day. You spend $100 to promote it, and get 2,000 downloads. During the week that follows, you make $200 from sales that would not have occurred otherwise.

Would that make the sale/promo worthwhile?

 

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David VanDyke

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Re: Free and cheap...A race to the bottom!
« Reply #51 on: October 23, 2018, 02:44:20 PM »
Apparently I've devalued my art to the tune of over $1M in the past 5 years.

*snort*

Never listen to people with no skin in the game.

I'm a lucky guy. I find the harder I work, the luckier I am.

Those who prefer their English sloppy have only themselves to thank if the advertisement writer uses his mastery of the vocabulary and syntax to mislead their weak minds.

~ Dorothy L. Sayers
 
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Mark Gardner

Re: Free and cheap...A race to the bottom!
« Reply #52 on: October 23, 2018, 11:25:04 PM »
Apparently I've devalued my art to the tune of over $1M in the past 5 years.

*snort*
We're talking US dollars, Dave, not rupees.
 

dianapersaud

Re: Free and cheap...A race to the bottom!
« Reply #53 on: October 23, 2018, 11:31:15 PM »
PS you know that stereotype about the reserved englishman? That's my typical reader! No wonder I don't get many reviews.

I'm a voracious reader and I've only left a handful of reviews. Some people like to leave reviews and others can't be bothered by it.

 
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Mark Gardner

Re: Free and cheap...A race to the bottom!
« Reply #54 on: October 23, 2018, 11:55:27 PM »
... I refuse to devalue my art for a quick sale (not saying that anyone who does discount their work doesn't have value.)

I understand that point of view.

What about this hypothetical situation: You set a book's price to free for one day. You spend $100 to promote it, and get 2,000 downloads. During the week that follows, you make $200 from sales that would not have occurred otherwise.

Would that make the sale/promo worthwhile?
I think that they're different things. The limited time promotion in your hypothetical situation is solid marketing, and I would do something like that if there was historical evidence that it would work. I'm all for using promotions and limited reductions in price to help push visibility, but I'm not a fan of a permanent loss leader hoping to make it up on the back end. I also don't discount books when I sell at events, I value-add instead.

The difference between devaluing your work and running a promo isn't always clear, but as David Van Dyke said at the 2018 CoKoCon, "I'll know it when I see it." (He was responding to an attendee who asked what exactly was science fiction.)
 

LilyBLily

Re: Free and cheap...A race to the bottom!
« Reply #55 on: October 24, 2018, 12:10:47 AM »
Do you constantly advertise your permafree first in series? It's very expensive to advertise in the discount newsletters. It's cheaper to advertise using targeted CPC ads. After an initial ad push, do you continue with daily CPC ads or just do cyclical newsletter ads? Or nothing at all? How are free books doing in the marketplace?

Note I'm not asking if free books sell through to the rest of the series and make an eventual profit. I'd like to know just how much costly support I'd have to give a permafree book.
 

dgcasey

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Re: Free and cheap...A race to the bottom!
« Reply #56 on: October 24, 2018, 04:50:27 AM »
I'm a voracious reader and I've only left a handful of reviews. Some people like to leave reviews and others can't be bothered by it.

Same here. If I'm reading a Kindle book, the last thing it asks is for me to leave a review. I will usually leave a star rating, but then submit it without any worded review. I'll write a review on maybe one out of three books I've read. I guess this is the reason I never complain about my lack of reviews on my books. It would be a bit hypocritical if I did.
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JRTomlin

Re: Free and cheap...A race to the bottom!
« Reply #57 on: October 24, 2018, 05:24:26 AM »
I'm with Article94 (Mark Gardner)

I don't agree with this quote:

". . . Walmart, Sam’s Warehouse, and every other place wouldn’t be giving samples away in the hopes the sampler will fall in love and buy the product."

Their samples are NOT the product. They are little pieces of the product (food). Their samples are samples.
Does BMW give away sample cars? Maybe you would really like the car and buy next year's car.
Nope. No BMW samples.

Indie publishing might be the only (or at least one of the few) that gives away the whole product as a sample.
Discount? Yes if you want to. But the whole product for free?

Walmart won't give you a whole package of pizzas as a sample. Just a bite.
The 'whole work' is my entire body of work, not one novel. Yes, I have given away one novel in order to sell an entire series. I will probably do so again in the future. 
 

Al Macy (aka TromboneAl)

Re: Free and cheap...A race to the bottom!
« Reply #58 on: October 24, 2018, 05:32:54 AM »
I love free.  It's been very good to me and by free I mean (usually) taking advantage of the five free days with KU.  Always free doesn't convey any urgency.  Free for a short time gives readers more incentive to grab that book today.

I'm not sure the readers can tell the difference.

Here's my Yesterday's Thief page. Can you tell whether it's permafree vs free today only?



I used to add Limited time offer! to the start of the description when I had a free day, but that's an extra bit of bother.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2018, 05:49:25 AM by Al Macy (aka TromboneAl) »

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Al Macy (aka TromboneAl)

Re: Free and cheap...A race to the bottom!
« Reply #59 on: October 24, 2018, 05:58:08 AM »
Do you constantly advertise your permafree first in series? It's very expensive to advertise in the discount newsletters. It's cheaper to advertise using targeted CPC ads. After an initial ad push, do you continue with daily CPC ads or just do cyclical newsletter ads? Or nothing at all? How are free books doing in the marketplace?

Note I'm not asking if free books sell through to the rest of the series and make an eventual profit. I'd like to know just how much costly support I'd have to give a permafree book.

I have a hard time shelling out dough to promote my first-in-series free, because if I make the promo cost back, it's because I sell more in the days following the promo. I'm going to rethink that, however.

Al Macy | Web Site | Facebook | Twitter
 

DrewMcGunn

Re: Free and cheap...A race to the bottom!
« Reply #60 on: October 24, 2018, 07:13:07 AM »
Do you constantly advertise your permafree first in series? It's very expensive to advertise in the discount newsletters. It's cheaper to advertise using targeted CPC ads. After an initial ad push, do you continue with daily CPC ads or just do cyclical newsletter ads? Or nothing at all? How are free books doing in the marketplace?

Note I'm not asking if free books sell through to the rest of the series and make an eventual profit. I'd like to know just how much costly support I'd have to give a permafree book.

I have a hard time shelling out dough to promote my first-in-series free, because if I make the promo cost back, it's because I sell more in the days following the promo. I'm going to rethink that, however.

Al, I hope you don't mind me asking, but what's your conversion rate from book 1 to book 2 in the above referenced series?


Drew McGunn
 

JRTomlin

Re: Free and cheap...A race to the bottom!
« Reply #61 on: October 24, 2018, 07:43:02 AM »
I may have mentioned this before, but I price at $4.99 for all my books, barring first-in-series, which are $2.99.

The price gives me enough leeway to buy some clicks on various ad platforms.

Everything I write is part of one series or another, and every novel is set in the same universe, with crossovers from various characters. Even the middle-grade novels and many of my short stories.

My intention is to build a fan base, not sell books. To that end, I've switched from pushing freebies on all and sundry to focussing on building my mailing list, as mentioned above. I offer all my first-in-series books free, via bookfunnel, and I'm now getting 20-30 new signups per day thanks to CPC ads.

I've created Alpha reading teams, (40 people, chapters as I write them), Beta reading teams (40 others, ARCs) and a Reviewer team of maybe 200 people who get every new release, free.

I have a signup process which hands out a couple of freebies, introduces me to the people who are kind enough to sign up, and offers them a spot on the review team.

I've all but abandoned newsletter swaps, because they feel a bit too spammy to me.

Since I'm writing a book every 4-6 weeks right now, there's plenty for me to share when I do put out a newsletter, but I've started focussing on smaller segments of the list each time, instead of blasting everyone with a generic newsy email.
That bolded part is impressive! Are those mainly through FB ads? Or BB ads?

(I sincerely hope my newsletter people don't expect 'newsy' because I don't do news  :icon_redface:)
 

Al Macy (aka TromboneAl)

Re: Free and cheap...A race to the bottom!
« Reply #62 on: October 24, 2018, 09:49:04 AM »
Al, I hope you don't mind me asking, but what's your conversion rate from book 1 to book 2 in the above referenced series?

I don't mind.

I can't calculate that in a meaningful way, since I promote the books in the series independently. For example, book four in the series (AMRC) has sold five times as many units as book three (DT).

Al Macy | Web Site | Facebook | Twitter
 

David VanDyke

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Re: Free and cheap...A race to the bottom!
« Reply #63 on: October 24, 2018, 02:26:34 PM »
Apparently I've devalued my art to the tune of over $1M in the past 5 years.

*snort*
We're talking US dollars, Dave, not rupees.

As am I.

US dollars, with the usual leavening of Pounds Sterling, Euros and those funny-colored dollars other countries use.
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Lorri Moulton

Re: Free and cheap...A race to the bottom!
« Reply #64 on: October 27, 2018, 12:58:56 AM »
One time before Christmas, I put all my ebooks as free for my social media followers and today is that day.  I'm in KU, so I usually get KU reads the free day and several days after that.  Sales also pick up because (I'm hoping) people enjoy the books and recommend them to their friends.

I don't have a marketing budget, so this is pretty much it except for trying BookFunnel for a few months.  We all have to see what works best for us and keep trying new things.  Or if really successful...keep doing what we're doing. :)

Author of Romance, Fantasy, Fairytales, Mystery & Suspense, and Historical Non-Fiction @ Lavender Cottage Books
 

PJ Post

Re: Free and cheap...A race to the bottom!
« Reply #65 on: October 27, 2018, 03:05:09 AM »
It's not about devaluing our books - they're already devalued. It's why David only made a mil instead of four or five. Self-publishers got hung up on the packaging. The product isn't the digital file or the bound pile of paper, it's the emotional experience captured in the reading. So, apart from some basic distribution concerns, all books should be about the same price. E-books were $15. People were paying this price as the new tech was adopted - just like people paid $20 for a CD when they came out, because that was the value of the music, not the price of the packaging.

Free books are not really loss leaders, that's a different strategy. Free samples aren't the same either. It makes no sense to try and justify a tactic based on existing business buzzwords when the new idea is, well...new. Zero marginal costs and a lack of scarcity are real things. As a result, free books are their own animal. It's a strategy pretty specific to the creative markets of books and music. How the strategy functions, (there are lots of variations) depends on the brand and the specific goals of the publisher.

The market reality, as of now, is that consumers have been conditioned to expect ultra-cheap entertainment, to the point that a growing segment believes that Art et al should just be free - all of it, especially if it lives on the internet.

This is why I recommend differentiation, not only because it's been proven to be THE primary driver of most successful companies, but also because the less fungible your books are, the more they stand out against the noise. Brand loyalty (fan excitement) is directly proportional to how fungible your books are.
 
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prolificwriter

Re: Free and cheap...A race to the bottom!
« Reply #66 on: October 27, 2018, 05:39:52 AM »
It's why David only made a mil instead of four or five.

 :icon_think:
 :icon_rolleyes:
 

Pandorra

Re: Free and cheap...A race to the bottom!
« Reply #67 on: October 27, 2018, 11:00:12 AM »
... My intention is to build a fan base, not sell books. To that end, I've switched from pushing freebies on all and sundry to focussing on building my mailing list, as mentioned above. I offer all my first-in-series books free, via bookfunnel, and I'm now getting 20-30 new signups per day thanks to CPC ads. ...
I'm confused. You saying you're willing to pay for newsletter sign-ups to build a fan base. I get that. It's pretty much the opposite of my game plan, but I get it. Others have tried it and made it work for a time. How does that work with ARCS and stuff, though? Your September release only has four reviews and if you're getting 20 new people on your list a day, that equals about 600 people a month. That's a lot of people to add, and kudos, but they don't look to be buying. What's the plan to change that? I'm honestly curious. I'm not trying to be difficult. I simply don't think this method works over the long haul and I'm curious why you do think it will work.

I'm sure Simon will step in here, but what he is doing sounds a lot like what Mark Dawson (Self Publishing Formula) has been advocating for a while. Dawson is frequently quoted as saying that he'd rather have a sign-up than a sale. It has to do with sell-throughs to the rest of the series.
Except there's obviously no sell-through happening. That's the point. If there's no sell-through, how does that plan work?

I'm not sure no reviews means no sales, I sell quite a few books (nothing like the big numbers) but hardly ever get reviews. So mine don't represent my sales at all.

Dean Rencraft | Authors in Motion
 
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Tonyonline

Re: Free and cheap...A race to the bottom!
« Reply #68 on: October 30, 2018, 04:55:32 AM »
I'm not sure no reviews means no sales, I sell quite a few books (nothing like the big numbers) but hardly ever get reviews. So mine don't represent my sales at all.

I think that's the same for everyone.
This piece on justpublishingadvice, How Can I Get More Amazon Book Reviews? says "...it would seem that authors who have been around for a while are obtaining on average one review per 150-200 sales..."
It also goes on...
"Giving away Kindle books can help a little, but the ratio of free ebooks to new book reviews is even lower than for real sales."

I see many people saying that giving away books helps to get reviews, I suppose it does, however, maybe not as many as some would like!
 

WasAnn

Re: Free and cheap...A race to the bottom!
« Reply #69 on: October 30, 2018, 06:12:36 AM »
I think that number has changed lately, but maybe not for every genre. I used to get maybe 1 per 150-200. I'd say now that's waaaay less, like 1 per 400-500 sales/borrows. They're great reviews, but I honestly think that number has changed in terms of how many.

Also, I've been told that my genre generally gets fewer, so maybe that's it.


Science Fiction is my game.
 

David VanDyke

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Re: Free and cheap...A race to the bottom!
« Reply #70 on: October 30, 2018, 04:26:41 PM »
It's not about devaluing our books - they're already devalued. It's why David only made a mil instead of four or five.

I can't prove this is wrong, but my educated assessment is no (to the second part, that I would have made 4-5 times as much), I don't think so. I think that the ability to price lower in comparison to the (foolish) traditional publishers is exactly what made me my money. First, it allowed me and others to scrabble for market share, to get our foot in the door. It allowed us to get and keep fans who were wanting a decent deal.

And remember, we weren't only competing with the retail trade ebook market. We were (and are) partly competing against the used book market. Does a reader spend $5 on my ebook, or the same $5 on a used hardback on Amazon? Those used hardbacks or paperbacks were always there, always "devaluing" the market. We were forced to come down to them to compete, but once we did, once we indies found our sweet spots, and we had good product, we sold.

So, I think what I made was approximately the most I could have made, all other things being equal under the conditions I was given. Had there been no other form of "devaluation," say no secondary print book market selling cheap used books, the same percentage of the fixed number of dollars available from buyers would have still flowed to me, plus or minus maybe ten percent. The difference might have been I'd have written fewer books, or people would have written fewer books overall, or I'd have sold fewer copies at a higher price. I just don't believe I'd have made much more money.

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dgcasey

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Re: Free and cheap...A race to the bottom!
« Reply #71 on: October 30, 2018, 08:07:09 PM »
It's not about devaluing our books - they're already devalued. It's why David only made a mil instead of four or five.

I can't prove this is wrong, but my educated assessment is no (to the second part, that I would have made 4-5 times as much), I don't think so. I think that the ability to price lower in comparison to the (foolish) traditional publishers is exactly what made me my money.

I think you're doing just fine, Dave. Would you rather sell 250,000 books, keeping $4 per book, or go the trad route and sell 500,000 books and have them grace you with a dollar per book? Plus, you don't have any trad editor telling you, "it's not good enough" or some publisher calling you every week, wondering where that next manuscript is. Some of us would work better under that kind of system, but those of us going the indie route in a serious way can do much better without those distractions.
I will not forget one line of this, not one day. I will always remember when the Doctor was me.
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"Into The Wishing Well" title="Into The Wishing Well"
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Tonyonline

Re: Free and cheap...A race to the bottom!
« Reply #72 on: October 31, 2018, 04:05:15 AM »
And remember, we weren't only competing with the retail trade ebook market.

Made me think of this I was reading the other day on Authorlink. Avoiding the pitfalls of publishing with Amazon Kindle self-publishing platform, a short piece, but what stuck out for me was this...
"Self-published authors, according to Author Earnings, are verifiably capturing at least 24%-34% of all ebook sales in each of the five English-language markets…"
I'd have thought it would be more, which it goes on, was more "...the true indie share in each market lies somewhere between 30%-40%, the study shows." So indies aren't doing too bad against the trads...Go us  :dance:
 
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Tonyonline

Re: Free and cheap...A race to the bottom!
« Reply #73 on: October 31, 2018, 04:07:52 AM »
I used to get maybe 1 per 150-200. I'd say now that's waaaay less, like 1 per 400-500 sales/borrows.

 Hmmm...I wonder why :icon_think:
 

Lorri Moulton

Re: Free and cheap...A race to the bottom!
« Reply #74 on: October 31, 2018, 08:03:25 AM »
My understanding is that it's more difficult to leave reviews on Amazon now.  In groups I follow, more readers seem to be going to GoodReads.

Author of Romance, Fantasy, Fairytales, Mystery & Suspense, and Historical Non-Fiction @ Lavender Cottage Books
 

David VanDyke

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Re: Free and cheap...A race to the bottom!
« Reply #75 on: October 31, 2018, 10:06:14 AM »

"Self-published authors, according to Author Earnings, are verifiably capturing at least 24%-34% of all ebook sales in each of the five English-language markets…"
I'd have thought it would be more, which it goes on, was more "...the true indie share in each market lies somewhere between 30%-40%, the study shows." So indies aren't doing too bad against the trads...Go us  :dance:

True, but remember, while the average of freezing and boiling is comfortable, either extreme will kill you.

If I remember correctly, indie share ranged from a high of 71% in one niche (African-American fiction? something like that) down below a couple percent in things like textbooks. So, it depends on how you slice it.

It also matters (hugely) if we're talking about dollar sales vs. units sold, and also whether free ebooks are figured in. Indies sell more by # of units (probably more than 50% overall)  than they do by comparable dollar figures (which is more like 30%). Also, are we talking about gross sales, gross royalties, net author earnings, or what?

Often, the stats are quoted without defining those critical parameters.
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PJ Post

Re: Free and cheap...A race to the bottom!
« Reply #76 on: October 31, 2018, 10:18:09 AM »
It's not about devaluing our books - they're already devalued. It's why David only made a mil instead of four or five.

I can't prove this is wrong, but my educated assessment is no (to the second part, that I would have made 4-5 times as much), I don't think so. I think that the ability to price lower in comparison to the (foolish) traditional publishers is exactly what made me my money. First, it allowed me and others to scrabble for market share, to get our foot in the door. It allowed us to get and keep fans who were wanting a decent deal.

And remember, we weren't only competing with the retail trade ebook market. We were (and are) partly competing against the used book market. Does a reader spend $5 on my ebook, or the same $5 on a used hardback on Amazon? Those used hardbacks or paperbacks were always there, always "devaluing" the market. We were forced to come down to them to compete, but once we did, once we indies found our sweet spots, and we had good product, we sold.

So, I think what I made was approximately the most I could have made, all other things being equal under the conditions I was given. Had there been no other form of "devaluation," say no secondary print book market selling cheap used books, the same percentage of the fixed number of dollars available from buyers would have still flowed to me, plus or minus maybe ten percent. The difference might have been I'd have written fewer books, or people would have written fewer books overall, or I'd have sold fewer copies at a higher price. I just don't believe I'd have made much more money.

I wasn't suggesting you could have done better, you seem to have done very very well indeed.   :tup3b

But - as you said - under the conditions you were given. We're already at the bottom and have been for years, so strategies have to take this into account, along with all of the other obstacles out there.

I was just illustrating the difference between an average e-book price of $17 in 2010, and the current prevailing price of $2.99 or 99 cents or whatever. If Indies had not devalued the market, subscriptions services would never have been workable. Traditional book prices would not have fallen and the secondhand market would still be buoyed by higher new release prices. Win win win win win. Of course, the reality is that Indies were always destined to devalue the market because we're human. With no barriers to entry, bottoming out was only a matter of time. It's the whole Tragedy of the Commons thing. Generally speaking, it's why we can't have nice things. And it's also why the price of books have plummeted consistently across all distribution channels.

As creatives continue to emulate past market successes in lieu of original content, Art is rapidly being reduced to commodity status. And not just books, it's happening all over. And since demand for commodities is extremely price sensitive, these properties are also extremely fungible.
 

David VanDyke

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Re: Free and cheap...A race to the bottom!
« Reply #77 on: October 31, 2018, 02:33:24 PM »


But - as you said - under the conditions you were given. We're already at the bottom and have been for years, so strategies have to take this into account, along with all of the other obstacles out there.

***

I was just illustrating the difference between an average e-book price of $17 in 2010, and the current prevailing price of $2.99 or 99 cents or whatever. If Indies had not devalued the market, subscriptions services would never have been workable. Traditional book prices would not have fallen and the secondhand market would still be buoyed by higher new release prices. Win win win win win.

Of course, the reality is that Indies were always destined to devalue the market because we're human. With no barriers to entry, bottoming out was only a matter of time. It's the whole Tragedy of the Commons thing. Generally speaking, it's why we can't have nice things. And it's also why the price of books have plummeted consistently across all distribution channels.

First section reply: if by "for years" you mean "for decades," you'd be right. The bottom has nothing to do with ebooks. It has to do with the price of a copy of the books available--which has little to do with the retail price. Only eager fans or people with no other choice (say, trapped in airports) ever paid full price. Most readers waited--for the discount, for the mass market paperback, for the bargain bins, for the used copies to hit the secondhand bookstores. This has been going on since the forties, I'd say. It became even more pronounced in the run-up to the digital age, when the publishing houses went public and tried to soak readers for every possible dollar by raising prices on (what they considered) scarce goods. They did this in a vain effort to counteract the "bottom," which was in the secondhand bookstores, and with the original Amazon when it was mostly the biggest online bookstore.

So, with that in mind, the second section:

***

The "average ebook price" in 2010 was a falsity. First, as I mentioned above, what mattered was not the ebook price, but the price to obtain any particular book. When the artificially high ebook price was $17 and one could order a nearly new print copy for $6, the $6 was the bottom. The $17 ebook was an anomaly, no more relevant than someone trying to sell a "rare" used copy of the same book for $299. $6 was the price to match or beat. Anyone not part of the monopoly system, be they small publisher or indie, had to price at or below that $6 price point or they would not sell anything. Only those with monopolies on popular authors (think Weber or Sanderson or King or Rowling) could get away with charging $25 for a hardback, $17 for an ebook and (often) $15 for a paperback.

In other words, it was the BUYER who set the price, by what they were willing to pay. If they did not buy, that "price" was just a number, like the "price" of a house that cannot be sold because they're asking too much.

The contention that if indies hadn't devalued the market (too late!) subscription services would not have been workable is exactly wrong, exactly opposite of even your own argument. In fact, it's only HIGHER prices that make anyone want to sign up for a subscription service, precisely in order to bring their own costs down. If indies had in fact brought the price of an average ebook down to, say, 99c (instead of the 3.99-4.99 current real average), many people wouldn't bother joining KU. If the average price were, say. 49c, that subscription would be even less attractive.

So, if there had been no indies or small publishers lowering their prices, even MORE people would have joined KU, because for less than the price of one $17 ebook, subscribers could have "all you can eat." So in fact, the lower true average market price logically would have slowed people joining KU, rather than driving them to it.

Simply: higher ebook prices = KU more attractive. Lower ebook prices = KU less attractive.

The only Tragedy of the Commons takes place within KU, not within the market. The market is the market. The two are separate. They influence each other, but there is no "Commons" within the market to overgraze. There is no tragedy. The market is a natural mechanism for pricing goods. There is no "proper" price for goods other than what the market sets. Claiming the market is wrong or the price of goods the market sets is wrong is like saying sea level is wrong. It is what it is: a sum of conditions. As long as it's not artificially elevated, the price that prevails is the "right" price, having nothing to do with indies per se. Monopolies never last, so someone was bound to eventually undercut the artificially high prices of the trades.

In fact, it was Amazon itself that accelerated the natural process. It broke the logjam by inviting a bunch of new players into the game (indies) and then incentivizing them to price between 2.99 and 9.99. But to be clear, this pricing endpoint was and is a natural process, just like the price of sugar or pork bellies on the commodities markets. The prices are actually set, not by the sellers, but by the BUYERS, who set the prices by what they are willing to pay for similar goods.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2018, 02:38:44 PM by David VanDyke »
Never listen to people with no skin in the game.

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Anarchist

Re: Free and cheap...A race to the bottom!
« Reply #78 on: October 31, 2018, 02:42:49 PM »
David in this thread...


"The first lesson of economics is scarcity: there is never enough of anything to fully satisfy all those who want it. The first lesson of politics is to disregard the first lesson of economics.” – Thomas Sowell

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Max

Re: Free and cheap...A race to the bottom!
« Reply #79 on: October 31, 2018, 02:45:57 PM »
Agree w/Anarchist.

Nicely presented, David.
 
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PJ Post

Re: Free and cheap...A race to the bottom!
« Reply #80 on: November 03, 2018, 10:13:04 AM »
First section reply: if by "for years" you mean "for decades," you'd be right. The bottom has nothing to do with ebooks. It has to do with the price of a copy of the books available--which has little to do with the retail price. Only eager fans or people with no other choice (say, trapped in airports) ever paid full price. Most readers waited--for the discount, for the mass market paperback, for the bargain bins, for the used copies to hit the secondhand bookstores. This has been going on since the forties, I'd say. It became even more pronounced in the run-up to the digital age, when the publishing houses went public and tried to soak readers for every possible dollar by raising prices on (what they considered) scarce goods. They did this in a vain effort to counteract the "bottom," which was in the secondhand bookstores, and with the original Amazon when it was mostly the biggest online bookstore.

We've had a used book market for decades and yet new release prices have steadily increased up to the current price of $30 for a new hardback (I think they got as high as $40 US for a while there.) This is the opposite of what we would expect to see if the used market were creating downward pressure on new release pricing. The reason this didn't happen is because these are different distribution channels, and historically, the used market has had little impact on the new. I believe the formal distribution model is known as windowing, where new releases are published at a higher price, followed later by the paperback at a discount. And while I have a lot of hardbacks, I have way more $8-$9 mass-market paperbacks. The used market probably sold these for $3 or $4 when they were new, but to take advantage of the discount meant actually going to a used book store. There is a significant percentage of the book-reading demographic that has pretty much never been in a used book store.

'Most readers' is a nebulous demographic at best, because until the digital disruption (Indies), Borders and B&N et al were doing just fine with ever increasing book prices.

When e-books showed up, traditional publishing simply applied the windowing philosophy to digital, but at a discount. So new releases were $17 or whatever at the time, instead of $30 for the hardback.

The problem wasn't the used paperback market, the problem was the ever expanding supply of dirt cheap books from Indies, that, when combined with the severe shortage of content for the emerging technology (readers), created a perfect storm that disrupted traditional publishing's business model. And that's why they were going nuts to discredit Indies, because we were destroying their historically stable livelihood. It wasn't that they didn't get it - we were simply bad for business.

Quote
The "average ebook price" in 2010 was a falsity. First, as I mentioned above, what mattered was not the ebook price, but the price to obtain any particular book. When the artificially high ebook price was $17 and one could order a nearly new print copy for $6, the $6 was the bottom. The $17 ebook was an anomaly, no more relevant than someone trying to sell a "rare" used copy of the same book for $299. $6 was the price to match or beat. Anyone not part of the monopoly system, be they small publisher or indie, had to price at or below that $6 price point or they would not sell anything. Only those with monopolies on popular authors (think Weber or Sanderson or King or Rowling) could get away with charging $25 for a hardback, $17 for an ebook and (often) $15 for a paperback.

In other words, it was the BUYER who set the price, by what they were willing to pay. If they did not buy, that "price" was just a number, like the "price" of a house that cannot be sold because they're asking too much.

The contention that if indies hadn't devalued the market (too late!) subscription services would not have been workable is exactly wrong, exactly opposite of even your own argument. In fact, it's only HIGHER prices that make anyone want to sign up for a subscription service, precisely in order to bring their own costs down. If indies had in fact brought the price of an average ebook down to, say, 99c (instead of the 3.99-4.99 current real average), many people wouldn't bother joining KU. If the average price were, say. 49c, that subscription would be even less attractive.

So, if there had been no indies or small publishers lowering their prices, even MORE people would have joined KU, because for less than the price of one $17 ebook, subscribers could have "all you can eat." So in fact, the lower true average market price logically would have slowed people joining KU, rather than driving them to it.

Simply: higher ebook prices = KU more attractive. Lower ebook prices = KU less attractive.

The problem with subscription services wasn't a demand issue. From a consumer perspective, yes, subscriptions are great, especially as new content becomes more expensive. However, from a supply-side perspective, it would never have worked, which was my point. The cost would have been prohibitively expensive, which is exactly what we saw with Scribd, even at deflated prices, when they had to discontinue their romance categories.

Again, books were priced at what the market would bear, simple as that - good old supply and demand. $10 for mass-market paperbacks, up to $30 for new release hardbacks and $17 or so for digital. The used market was irrelevant and KU was way off in the future. That was the prevailing market Indies inherited. Buyers had already approved these prices by paying them and working within the windowing system. This model reflected existing consumer behavior, and their expectations vis a vis pricing.

Quote
The only Tragedy of the Commons takes place within KU, not within the market. The market is the market. The two are separate. They influence each other, but there is no "Commons" within the market to overgraze. There is no tragedy. The market is a natural mechanism for pricing goods. There is no "proper" price for goods other than what the market sets. Claiming the market is wrong or the price of goods the market sets is wrong is like saying sea level is wrong. It is what it is: a sum of conditions. As long as it's not artificially elevated, the price that prevails is the "right" price, having nothing to do with indies per se. Monopolies never last, so someone was bound to eventually undercut the artificially high prices of the trades.

In fact, it was Amazon itself that accelerated the natural process. It broke the logjam by inviting a bunch of new players into the game (indies) and then incentivizing them to price between 2.99 and 9.99. But to be clear, this pricing endpoint was and is a natural process, just like the price of sugar or pork bellies on the commodities markets. The prices are actually set, not by the sellers, but by the BUYERS, who set the prices by what they are willing to pay for similar goods.

The Tragedy of the Commons:

The tragedy of the commons is a term used in social science to describe a situation in a shared-resource system where individual users acting independently according to their own self-interest behave contrary to the common good of all users by depleting or spoiling that resource through their collective action - wiki

In our case, the shared resource was the prevailing market price and consumer expectations.

The reason we call it a tragedy of the commons is because the 'market' had nothing to do with setting anything. The devaluing of the book market was artificial (and this isn't the only case study). The lower prices were not a reaction to supply and demand, they were an attempt for self-publishers to undercut one another. The e-book supply for readers was still severely restricted when we hit bottom. Indies acted against their long-term collective interests and against the stability of the existing market when they lowered their prices so drastically. It was when the majority of Indies followed suit, flooding the emerging market with dirt cheap books, that we so disrupted the pricing equilibrium. Think about it like this: say we got together all of the market data for the time, analyzed it and came up with a conclusion - and then utterly ignored it and did the exact opposite. Because, in a nut shell, except for the actual analysis part, that's what happened.

Eventually, we might have ended up here anyway, as I said - human behavior, but we'll never know for sure. It's all academic anyway, the reality is that we are at the bottom, and we're going to stay here because we're going to have a constant wave of new self-publishers that think they have to be cheap to get noticed. I'm just happy Amazon set the floor at 99 cents. Can you imagine box sets of 20 books for a nickel? You know it would have happened if it had been allowed.

And selling books for less than a penny each has nothing to do with supply and demand. We've conditioned a whole new generation of readers to expect a lot of content for next to nothing. That's not on buyers or supply and demand or technology or manipulative traditional publishers - that's all on us.

It sucks, but the data doesn't lie. :shrug

eta: In international economics, when import pricing is set so low, it is called dumping, which is illegal. Domestically, it is called predatory pricing. Normally, markets are protected from this type of behavior, even the NYSE has an automatic closure if the value falls too fast, but since there were so many Indies participating, we had no protection and the market went into free fall. What would have happened if Random House had suddenly priced all of their books at a dollar?
« Last Edit: November 03, 2018, 10:27:13 AM by PJ Post »
 
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David VanDyke

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Re: Free and cheap...A race to the bottom!
« Reply #81 on: November 03, 2018, 05:53:19 PM »
Thanks--in arguing against me, you are proving me right. I'm not sure why youre trying to disagree with me, except that you don't seem to see the implications of your own statements:

We've had a used book market for decades and yet new release prices have steadily increased up to the current price of $30 for a new hardback (I think they got as high as $40 US for a while there.) This is the opposite of what we would expect to see if the used market were creating downward pressure on new release pricing. The reason this didn't happen is because these are different distribution channels, and historically, the used market has had little impact on the new. I believe the formal distribution model is known as windowing, where new releases are published at a higher price, followed later by the paperback at a discount.

The artificial "official" price was as you say. The Big 6 publishing monopoly, which also used strongarm tactics to keep its distributers in line ("don't buy from those other guys or we won't give you new release copies), used windowing as a strategy precisely to create artificial scarcity in order to try to fight against the downward pressure on the natural prices. If the prices were naturally at that level, they would never need windowing.

And while I have a lot of hardbacks, I have way more $8-$9 mass-market paperbacks. The used market probably sold these for $3 or $4 when they were new, but to take advantage of the discount meant actually going to a used book store. There is a significant percentage of the book-reading demographic that has pretty much never been in a used book store.

Did you buy those hardbacks at full price, or at some form of discount? And you admit you often waited for the mass-market paperbacks--again, evidence that the artificially windowed price was unnatural.

And what's a "significant percentage" of the book-reading demographic? 20%? 50%? I don't believe it to be nearly that high--but anyway, that's actually the wrong question to ask. It doesn't matter how many people go into what bookstore, as much as how many copies are sold in what store and at what price. If, say, only 50% of book readers patronized used bookstores, but those readers buy 5x as many books (I think they probably buy more like 10x as many books, but I'm trying to be conservative here), then in effect, 5x as many books are sold (and returned, and resold, over and over) in used bookstores, at deep discounts.

And even in the retail bookstores, the voracious readers didn't generally pay full price, further multiplying this effect.

'Most readers' is a nebulous demographic at best, because until the digital disruption (Indies), Borders and B&N et al were doing just fine with ever increasing book prices.

Again, the increasing book prices were the monopolists' attempt to counter the big box chains DIScOUNTING of books. They had bargain bins, 50% sales, reading clubs for 10% off all the time, and constant markdowns. I used to go into those stores and walk out with 10 books for $35. As long as I didn't want a specific new release, my average price was well under $5. That's the price the majority of books sold at.

The problem wasn't the used paperback market, the problem was the ever expanding supply of dirt cheap books from Indies, that, when combined with the severe shortage of content for the emerging technology (readers), created a perfect storm that disrupted traditional publishing's business model. And that's why they were going nuts to discredit Indies, because we were destroying their historically stable livelihood. It wasn't that they didn't get it - we were simply bad for business.

Indies and ebooks were simply the next step on the process. There was already a glut of paperbacks and used hardbacks. That's why Amazon the original bookstore took off so rapidly. But because of the monopoly on published books--not copies, but new original books by paid authors--there was an enormous pent-up demand. Indies and small presses publishing ebooks suddenly fed that demand--but the demand was already there. It was part of the market.

Think of artificially high prices like the Berlin Wall. The existence of each was not proof that people liked the situation, nor did each make anyone's lives better except for those in (temporary) control. Quite the opposite--artificially high prices, like the Berlin wall, were proof positive of the exact opposite--that people want to get out of an oppressive, abusive situation, and those in control were trying to stop them.

Again, books were priced at what the market would bear, simple as that - good old supply and demand. $10 for mass-market paperbacks, up to $30 for new release hardbacks and $17 or so for digital. The used market was irrelevant and KU was way off in the future. That was the prevailing market Indies inherited. Buyers had already approved these prices by paying them and working within the windowing system. This model reflected existing consumer behavior, and their expectations vis a vis pricing.

Nope.

The market did not bear those prices. Those were ASKING PRICES which only a small percentage of consumers actually paid. If those were "what the market would bear," then QED all of us indies would happily be pricing at $17, or at least 9.99. But Amazon knew from its stats, and proved by its policies of discounting trade ebooks to below 9.99 back when it had that authority, that the fake pricing was too high. The $17 ebook had nothing to do with the market, and everything to do with trying to protect the legacy print channels and their artificial windowing system. They were not working with consumer behavior or reflecting consumer behavior, they were manipulating it using their monopolized captive customers.

But, as soon as that monopoly unraveled, the market returned the prices to their proper places because of supply and demand.

Artificial pricing, monopoly pricing, is non-market pricing. That's precisely why democratic governments have anti-monopoly laws: to try to counteract naked attempts to manipulate the market, and that's what the publishers were doing. In fact, they were often colluding to protect their monopolies. It took Amazon to break their monopolies, which naturally resulted in lower ebook prices. Every non-monopoly player, whether indie or small publisher, ended up pricing their books closer to the natural market price. That was inevitable.


The reason we call it a tragedy of the commons is because the 'market' had nothing to do with setting anything. The devaluing of the book market was artificial (and this isn't the only case study). The lower prices were not a reaction to supply and demand, they were an attempt for self-publishers to undercut one another. The e-book supply for readers was still severely restricted when we hit bottom. Indies acted against their long-term collective interests and against the stability of the existing market when they lowered their prices so drastically. It was when the majority of Indies followed suit, flooding the emerging market with dirt cheap books, that we so disrupted the pricing equilibrium. Think about it like this: say we got together all of the market data for the time, analyzed it and came up with a conclusion - and then utterly ignored it and did the exact opposite. Because, in a nut shell, except for the actual analysis part, that's what happened.


You are completely misunderstanding what's going on.

The "devaluing" was not a devaluing--it was a return to the natural value set by the market. It's like claiming that taking someone off steroids is "devaluing" their athletic ability rather than returning it to its natural level.

The lower prices were precisely, exactly a response to supply and demand. In fact, you keep saying so yourself--then for some inexplicable reason you refuse to draw the inevitable, undeniable conclusion. You say yourself the market was flooded. Exactly! That's the market! That's how markets work--naturally! Yet somehow you're trying to say water should be expected to flow uphill, or stay in its ponds when it's raining to overflow its banks.

The tragedy of the commons is a term used in social science to describe a situation in a shared-resource system where individual users acting independently according to their own self-interest behave contrary to the common good of all users by depleting or spoiling that resource through their collective action - wiki

I know exactly what the tragedy of the commons is--but you don't! Nobody depleted any resources! There are more books, more money (overall) being paid for more books (though less individually), more authors making a living than ever before, the publishers are reporting record profits, and readers are benefitting from lower prices! Win-win-win-win-win NOW, not before, because of MORE resources. The only group that lost out were midlist authors under that traditional system who were not agile enough in their business practices to make the transition to an indie model. There simply is no tragedy, except the normal disruption of some "laborers." It's like when the automobile killed the buggy-building business. The only ones who lost out where those who tried to hold on to the horse and buggy, and did not re-skill themselves for the world of the automobile.

And selling books for less than a penny each has nothing to do with supply and demand. We've conditioned a whole new generation of readers to expect a lot of content for next to nothing. That's not on buyers or supply and demand or technology or manipulative traditional publishers - that's all on us.


That is exactly, precisely supply and demand. It's supply and demand in its purest form. How you can keep saying it's not--you're calling black white. It's positively Orwellian, the way you're trying to claim the false is true.


eta: In international economics, when import pricing is set so low, it is called dumping, which is illegal. Domestically, it is called predatory pricing. Normally, markets are protected from this type of behavior, even the NYSE has an automatic closure if the value falls too fast, but since there were so many Indies participating, we had no protection and the market went into free fall. What would have happened if Random House had suddenly priced all of their books at a dollar?


No, dumping is mostly not illegal. It can be, but only under specific circumstances. Ditto for predatory pricing.

https://www.investopedia.com/terms/d/dumping.asp

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predatory_pricing

It's only illegal (in most free market nations) if it's proven that it's deliberate and artificial, not as a result of market forces.

But our current fantastic, wonderful situation (lower prices for everyone, more books sold, more opportunity and money for authors as a whole, more profits for the traditional publishers who survived the initial disruption) is entirely due to market forces finally breaking through the logjam, enabled by digital publishing, which took power out of the hands of the monopolists.

In contrast, you're arguing everyone was better off under the old system.

Nope. Nopity nope nope nope.

« Last Edit: November 03, 2018, 05:58:30 PM by David VanDyke »
Never listen to people with no skin in the game.

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Becca Mills

Re: Free and cheap...A race to the bottom!
« Reply #82 on: November 03, 2018, 10:36:26 PM »
I've never gotten the heart of the "devaluing" argument. If I can offer my books to consumers at a lower per-item cost while making more from each transaction, what's not to like? People can afford to read more books; authors can make more money.
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notthatamanda

Re: Free and cheap...A race to the bottom!
« Reply #83 on: November 03, 2018, 11:02:58 PM »
Do you constantly advertise your permafree first in series? It's very expensive to advertise in the discount newsletters. It's cheaper to advertise using targeted CPC ads. After an initial ad push, do you continue with daily CPC ads or just do cyclical newsletter ads? Or nothing at all? How are free books doing in the marketplace?

Note I'm not asking if free books sell through to the rest of the series and make an eventual profit. I'd like to know just how much costly support I'd have to give a permafree book.

When I was in KU I did the newsletter (Bknights, Freebooksy, etc) once a quarter).  I did all five days at once and crammed as many promos into the five day period that would have me.  Lots of downloads during the promotion, slowed to a trickle, then eventually a drip.  One of the joys of being out of KU is I can scatter the promos further out.  The trickles are bigger and last a lot longer on the other sites.  Lots of people download off the free newsletters and those people may never read the book.  But I see it as paying to increase my ranking/visibility and I think the people who pick up the permafree, just by finding it when they are browsing, are more likely to read it as soon as they get it.  I can't prove that.  I look at my profitbaility over the year, not that I don't examine whether certain promos or ads are working well, but as far as profitability that's what I look at.  I didn't have much luck with Bookbub ads, I'm not on Facebook, and I just started experimenting with AMS a couple of weeks ago.
 

Lu Kudzoza

Re: Free and cheap...A race to the bottom!
« Reply #84 on: November 04, 2018, 04:45:05 AM »
I don't think books are being devalued any more than they have historically. What's changed is the perception of devaluation because it's more visible to the consumer. Lower prices are much easier to understand as devaluation than used book stores, discount racks, sharing books with friends, etc. So, because prices have come down we think books are being devalued, when in reality, if you did the math considering used book stores and such you'd probably come up with the same value as you're blatantly seeing in pricing now.

To answer the OP's question of what do you do now, you find an advertising and pricing model where you make money across all of the books in a series (or in your entire catalog). If you do the work, you'll be able to tailor a strategy that maximizes your overall profit.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2018, 04:48:06 AM by Not Lu »
 
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idontknowyet

Re: Free and cheap...A race to the bottom!
« Reply #85 on: November 04, 2018, 05:50:14 AM »
People who moan about the race to the bottom forget that books have been widely cheap and free within the past, say, 80 years or so--ever since pulp paperbacks flooded the market and ended up in bargain bins, garage sales and flea markets. Oh, and libraries. And library liquidation sales. And Goodwill type shops. And swaps, and borrowing from friends, and so on and so on.

If you aren't picky, you can get tons of print books very cheap. The current free/cheap market is the digital equivalent.

This is very true I've been buying books by the box for years and years. In it I would find a few I don't like, a few I love and buy everything from the author I can find, and a few I read and forget.  On a totally unrelated thought, I would love to buy a grab bag of virtual books in larger genres. Like 20 random books for $5. That would be really cool.
 
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PJ Post

Re: Free and cheap...A race to the bottom!
« Reply #86 on: November 05, 2018, 11:27:29 AM »
Thanks--in arguing against me, you are proving me right. I'm not sure why youre trying to disagree with me, except that you don't seem to see the implications of your own statements:

Okay…

This artificial price/monopoly stuff is just flat-out false, sorry. Traditional publishing is not and never has been a monopoly. At worst, it was a cartel, but even then, it never enjoyed monopolistic power because there are far too many small, medium and independent presses exerting their own pressure on the system, not to mention all of the independent book store chains that have only recently disappeared.

As for windowing, it’s an old strategy used to squeeze the most out of a market by stratifying the demographics by income and desire, (it also leverages the long tail really well). Scarcity is real in a non-zero marginal cost market. Print books are scarce, especially when there were far fewer of them. Windowing is, and was, genius.

However, it should be mentioned that it was this very principle of scarcity that allowed the second hand markets to flourish. They also sold books that were out of print or otherwise difficult to obtain. The second hand market benefited from high retail prices because a rising tide lifts all boats. As I said before, they were separate distribution channels, the new being largely unaffected by the used, but the used market was profoundly affected by new release pricing because they still represented poles of a single market. It’s one of those all squares are rectangles, but not all rectangles are squares things.

I said all of that hardcover/paperback stuff to say I have a lot of books. I bought some at full price, some at a discount, some at second hand stores and some at science fiction conventions, which means I bought some of them at a significant premium. I've even stood in line to buy books. And to be clear, I'm not some special snowflake. Lots of readers have favorite writers whose books they buy when they come out - even at full price.

Additionally, we need to account for the fact that price is not the only consideration involved in the consumer decision process, it’s not even the most important. This is a fact, a common sense one. Even when all of the candy is free, we still pick through the pumpkin to find the candy we prefer.

When I said a 'significant percentage', I was referring to enough demand to maintain high prices.

As to the question: how many books are sold? Again, enough to maintain these high prices - which is a direct response to satisfying existing demand. Excess demand would result in even higher prices, at least temporarily, a shortfall would bring downward pressure on pricing. So the demand for new books was stable (pre-Indie disruption) because it was enjoying an equilibrium of sorts.

And yes, some books were discounted, but that had more to do with prevailing retail theory/practice than any decline in demand. By the early 2000's, Cosco and Sam's Club were a thing, so were Outlet Stores. We can't look at publishing in a vacuum; there were other forces at play, but none of them were the used book market. Additionally, 'charting' new releases were often discounted to improve velocity and other non-revenue specific goals, such as gaining market share, as well as remaining competitive with warehouse and new release discount stores.

To be fair, these new retailers did affect pricing strategy, but the demographic these stores served was the mature market, not the early adopters. Sure, once a book broke out, it was everywhere, but not until - mid-listers need not apply. So it would be inaccurate to project one price-point based upon a single distribution channel catering to a single demographic as defining an entire industry.

Anecdotes and echo-chambers don’t define markets either.

So we can throw as much anti-traditional publishing rhetoric at it as we want, but the reality is that traditional publishing was extremely good at making money and the reason their business model worked is that there was enough demand to support it. It really is just that simple.

Also, I’m confused by this natural value price point. We had books selling on Amazon last year - 10 for 99 cents or even 20 for 99 cents. That's a nickel to a dime per novel. Is that the natural value you're talking about? That's about what a paperback novel was worth in 1939. By 1970 they were worth a buck, and we got all of the way up to $2.99 by 1980 or so - 38 years ago.

You're getting hung up on the packaging. The book is the experience, just like a movie. We don't pay for the film. Movie prices didn't go down when they switched to digital. And the prevailing price (natural value) for experience is whatever demand will support.

As for the tragedy of the commons, you're being too literal. Books are not the resource being discussed, this whole discussion pivots around consumer expectations. And the number of authors making bank has nothing to do with the analysis. We're talking about the change in consumer expectation (potential demand vis a vis price elasticity) from pre-Indie disruption to post-Indie disruption. Indies didn't exist yet (at least not as a primary player) so they have no role in defining market conditions prior to their arrival.

For those unfamiliar, this is how supply and demand works: you set your price as high as demand will allow, not as low as Amazon will let you get away with. It's called the equilibrium point, where demand equals supply at a specific price. It's a one to one correlation from the consumer perspective: as demand increases, so does price, as demand decreases, price follows. But on the supply side, it's an inverse relationship: as supply declines, prices go up due to scarcity. And the one we're all waiting for - as supply increases, price falls. Which is what has happened and what we would expect to happen, especially as books adopt commodity status.

However, we hit bottom long before the e-book market was saturated. And that is the crux of my argument. Amazon would never have started the KDP program if they had an adequate supply of e-books to promote their new reader. Full Stop. That is also a fact.

But, as we all know, they didn't, so they pulled down the gates and let us in. So when Indies raced to the bottom, there was still a shortage of digital content for readers and the prevailing price for traditional digital was $17. Supply and demand did not justify undercutting the market by ~1,600%. Full Stop. That’s yet another fact. But no one cared, because Indies only cared about undercutting each other. And we're back to not outrunning the bear, just your BFF.

As a general guide, we should never allow the rules printed on the peeling wooden sign over the entrance to the flea market to dictate industry pricing. Indies could only do what Amazon allowed them to do.

I did not say that everybody was better off before. I did imply traditional publishing was better off - and they were, without question. I have also said that we'd all be better off if Indies had not devalued their own market, which is also true. That's what led me to say you might have made more money.

But no, we're not necessarily all better off. Some of us are, yeah, and that kind of brings us back to the tragedy of the commons. We've all done way more than our fair share of f*cking creatives for generations to come. Yes, lots of creatives are making money, but it's becoming increasingly difficult to earn enough to do it full time - and the Arts suffer for that, and will continue to suffer. Say what you want about the old ways, but they actually nurtured artists and we got amazing results. Now, the mainstream is nothing but recycled, plasticized, low-risk fan service. We have to work to find original content, and I'm not just talking about books. It's really great we have more players, more outlets and opportunities - awesome in fact, but it sucks that consumers increasingly believe we should be doing it for free.

Indies have told readers that our novels are worth somewhere between a nickel and a dime a piece. That's the new price floor. It's a fact, do the math. 10-20 books for 99 cents. Our $2.99 go-to pricing is based on the 70% return set by Amazon, not market forces. If Amazon had set the 70% return at $1.49, then that would be the go-to price. Conversely, if the cutoff was $5.99, that would be the hot price point Coker would be talking about. I'm afraid our discussion is at an impasse if you can't understand this. The market did not readjust based upon supply and demand or natural values. Once we get past pro-Indie bias, the truth is obvious.

We did this, not uncontrollable market forces. As I said, it's happened to other industries and the narrative lines up just the same, the book industry isn’t special. The data is really really clear.

I'm discussing the point because it's really important that we find a way for creatives to do what they do full-time, not after work, you know, if they’re not too tired. We have to stop this second-class mindset that perpetuates this sh*t. And promoting the belief that our books are worth pennies, because the market says so - is as bad for business as it ever was, not to mention writer expectations.

It's also important that we find a way to bypass the current pay to play bullsh*t visibility scheme. We are writers, artists - we create experiences, call it whatever you want. We need to start thinking out of the box and incorporate new distribution and repackaging strategies that improve the monetization process. We have to find an independent way to connect with our readers, so we don't have to play by the flea market rules.

I mean, Jesus…what happens if the flea market closes?
 

CoraBuhlert

Re: Free and cheap...A race to the bottom!
« Reply #87 on: November 05, 2018, 12:43:24 PM »
Quote
Artificial pricing, monopoly pricing, is non-market pricing. That's precisely why democratic governments have anti-monopoly laws: to try to counteract naked attempts to manipulate the market, and that's what the publishers were doing. In fact, they were often colluding to protect their monopolies. It took Amazon to break their monopolies, which naturally resulted in lower ebook prices. Every non-monopoly player, whether indie or small publisher, ended up pricing their books closer to the natural market price. That was inevitable.

Democratic governments have anti-monopoly laws, true, but many democratic governments, including my own, also have fixed book price laws to prevent heavy discounting from destroying the market and driving smaller vendors out of business. And because the fixed book price laws only affect new books (in Germany, you have to keep the price stable for 18 months after publication), the used book market was never affected. I'm not one hundred percent happy with the fixed book price law - I do think buyers should be allowed to use store loyalty cards or coupons for books - but in general I support it, because I rather like having a lot of brick and mortar as well as online stores around. Coincidentally, the German fixed book price law only applies to German language books published in Germany, Austria or Switzerland.

The UK version of the fixed book price law was struck down sometime in the 1990s. Supermarkets, etc... started offering huge discounts on bestselling hardcovers, pulling the casual readers and the "I have to read this book everybody is talking about" away from bookstores. Within a couple of years, the UK book market went from having several bookstore chains and plenty of independents and used book stores to only two chains, one of which is more newsagent than bookstore, and a handful of independents.

As for whether indies have ruined the book market by undercutting the trads and each other, yes and no. Were US book prices too high before the e-book revolution? I think mass market paperback prices were okay. Hardcover prices were too high and trade paperback prices on the edge, but then I never bought hardcovers except for academic and references books and I only bought trades, if I couldn't get the book in mass market paperback. What is more, the science fiction, fantasy, crime fiction, romance novels, etc... I read all came out only in mass market paperback anyway, so hardcovers and trade paperbacks weren't even on my radar for many years. And because I've been buying mainly English language books since the late 1980s and was subject to the predatory pricing inflicted by the German distributors (where a 3.99 USD book would often cost three or four times the cover price), the price for an English language mass market paperback essentially didn't change for me for twenty years due to the exchange rate coming down and the hold of the distributors slipping, even as it went up from 3.99 to 7.99 USD in the US.  For a while, after Amazon came to town, but before the e-book revolution, mass market paperbacks actually got cheaper for me. Ironically, as someone who prefers to read print books, the e-book revolution has driven book prices up for me, because it killed off the mass market paperback, forcing me to switch to the pricier trades. And POD books, whether indie or small press, only come out in trade paperback anyway.

That said, e-book prices were extremely high in the beginning and Amazon's preferred (due to the 70% royalty) range of 2.99 to 9.99 USD is a lot more reasonable than 15 or 17 USD. 99 cent is a good price, too - for a standalone short story. 2.99 is a good price for a novella. However, the glut of full novels or even boxsets available for free and 99 cent made it very difficult for indies to sell standalone shorts or novellas for a reasonable price, even though traditional publishing still manages. For example, some of the Tor.com novellas cost up to 9.99 USD for Martha Wells' latest Murderbot novella (the older ones are 2.99). Harlequin charges 3.99 for 50000 word romances. A Perry Rhodan, John Sinclair or Jerry Cotton novelette (German pulp magazines) costs 1.99 EUR as an e-book and 2.20 EUR for the print novelette. All of those are reasonable prices except for the 9.99 novella (sorry, Martha Wells, I love Murderbot, but I'll wait until the price comes down or it shows up in the Hugo voter packet). 99 cent novels or even full box sets are not.

So in short, indies undercutting the more outrageous trad pub prices and bringing down e-book prices to a reasonable level was a good thing, but sadly they didn't know where and when to stop.       

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David VanDyke

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Re: Free and cheap...A race to the bottom!
« Reply #88 on: November 05, 2018, 12:58:26 PM »
PJ Post: Yeah, we've gotten to the point where you've proven you're not even living in the same universe as everyone else. You've built up a theoretical framework that doesn't connect with reality, rather like the economic side of Marxism. It seems like it might work on paper, but it's never actually functioned when implemented.

I can only observe what works for me, and works for people like me (in the business sense). I make a living doing this. Others who make an honest, non-scamming living doing with work within the framework of economic reality.

I suggest that trying to force a business model to work when it doesn't conform to reality, and when you don't actually understand the terms you are using (misusing, in the case of the Tragedy of the Commons), generally inhibits the ability to make money in that business (or to grow your market share, if that's your goal).

And because of this, the discussion is fruitless, and I won't be responding anymore.

I'll keep on with what I'm doing, gladly writing books and getting paid (by my estimate) a "devalued" price of approximately $100K per book over its lifetime, because I've conformed by business model to reality--as have thousand of working authors--thousands more than used to make a living as authors, out here in the free market. (see: Who Moved My Cheese).

On the other hand, you're welcome to do it your own way, whatever that is, in line with your theories, and succeed or fail on your own merits, without me or anyone else telling you what to do. That's the beauty of the new digital market: there's room for everyone, not just those who the traditionals allow into their closed ecosystem.

So, good luck.


Never listen to people with no skin in the game.

I'm a lucky guy. I find the harder I work, the luckier I am.

Those who prefer their English sloppy have only themselves to thank if the advertisement writer uses his mastery of the vocabulary and syntax to mislead their weak minds.

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Lu Kudzoza

Re: Free and cheap...A race to the bottom!
« Reply #89 on: November 06, 2018, 03:16:57 AM »

Indies have told readers that our novels are worth somewhere between a nickel and a dime a piece. That's the new price floor. It's a fact, do the math. 10-20 books for 99 cents. Our $2.99 go-to pricing is based on the 70% return set by Amazon, not market forces. If Amazon had set the 70% return at $1.49, then that would be the go-to price. Conversely, if the cutoff was $5.99, that would be the hot price point Coker would be talking about. I'm afraid our discussion is at an impasse if you can't understand this. The market did not readjust based upon supply and demand or natural values. Once we get past pro-Indie bias, the truth is obvious.

We did this, not uncontrollable market forces. As I said, it's happened to other industries and the narrative lines up just the same, the book industry isn’t special. The data is really really clear.


PJ, you're correct that "We" did this. Who is "We"? It's authors creating books that supply the market. With millions of books being added to supply every year an author has to be visible in order to get people reading their work. It sucks, but it's the hard cold reality. Pricing low is one way to get visibility. Paying for advertising is also a strategy some authors use. Once you get people reading your work you can move onto your next point.



It's also important that we find a way to bypass the current pay to play bullsh*t visibility scheme. We are writers, artists - we create experiences, call it whatever you want. We need to start thinking out of the box and incorporate new distribution and repackaging strategies that improve the monetization process. We have to find an independent way to connect with our readers, so we don't have to play by the flea market rules.

I mean, Jesus…what happens if the flea market closes?


You're thinking like an author. Books don't sell themselves without visibility first. You have to use bullsh*t visibility schemes (I call them strategies) to get people reading your work. If your work is good, you can move onto the next step in running a business -- customer retention... or as you put it, "an independent way to connect with our readers, so we don't have to play by the flea market rules."

There are several steps in building a brand and connecting with your readers. Unfortunately, in today's world, you might have to employ some distasteful pricing and marketing strategies before you can stop playing by the flea market rules.
 

PJ Post

Re: Free and cheap...A race to the bottom!
« Reply #90 on: November 06, 2018, 03:18:30 PM »
PJ, you're correct that "We" did this. Who is "We"? It's authors creating books that supply the market. With millions of books being added to supply every year an author has to be visible in order to get people reading their work. It sucks, but it's the hard cold reality. Pricing low is one way to get visibility. Paying for advertising is also a strategy some authors use. Once you get people reading your work you can move onto your next point.

The 'We' I was mostly discussing was self-publishers operating between 2010 and 2012 because that's when we hit bottom. As I said up-thread, I wasn't really addressing current business strategy. In fact, I think I said this...

I think it's important to remember that when we discuss 'the race to the bottom', we're talking about it in the past tense. The race to the bottom happened six years ago when Indies...

You're thinking like an author. Books don't sell themselves without visibility first. You have to use bullsh*t visibility schemes (I call them strategies) to get people reading your work. If your work is good, you can move onto the next step in running a business -- customer retention... or as you put it, "an independent way to connect with our readers, so we don't have to play by the flea market rules."

There are several steps in building a brand and connecting with your readers. Unfortunately, in today's world, you might have to employ some distasteful pricing and marketing strategies before you can stop playing by the flea market rules.

I'm thinking like a businessperson with many many years of experience. This isn't my first rodeo.

There's nothing distasteful about marketing or promotions or advertising, but bullsh*t visibility schemes are not the same thing. Traditional promotions result in organic, trackable metrics. On the other hand, Amazon has greatly diminished organic visibility in favor of their pay to play system, AMS. I'm not saying it doesn't work, it is clearly being leveraged by a lot of people quite successfully; but what I am saying is that it's a closed ecosystem, one that's controlled by a company selling both the book and its visibility (otherwise known as access). That sounds a lot like a racket scheme to me. And I think it's a problem, and I think it's going to become an even larger problem moving forward as more and more online retailers follow suit relative to third-party vendors.

Many of us predicted some kind of pay to play system a few years back, and this is what we got. My understanding is that the monthly AMS spend necessary to be competitive is now completely out of reach for most new writers. Please, correct me if my information on this is incorrect.

I think we - the collective current 'we' - should be rethinking our dependence on a company that could shut us all out tomorrow on a whim. We're a tiny piece of the Amazon financial empire, and no, they don't need us to lure new customers to Prime. I wish I had some answers, but I'm still rethinking everything.

And because this is the internet: No, I'm not saying David, or anyone else, should be doing anything one way or the other. We all have to do what works for us. If it ain't broke, blah blah f*cking blah.

...and when you don't actually understand the terms you are using (misusing, in the case of the Tragedy of the Commons) *snip*


I'm pretty sure it's why we can't have nice things.