Author Topic: What is this called?  (Read 6119 times)

WriteOn

What is this called?
« on: September 04, 2019, 05:13:19 AM »
I'm trying to explain to a fellow writer to avoid this: the writer started to collect... And that they should instead do this: the writer collected...

What is this called? Avoiding to start, to begin, etc.
 

Post-Doctorate D

Re: What is this called?
« Reply #1 on: September 04, 2019, 05:54:26 AM »
Your example has different meanings . . .

There's a difference between starting to collect something and collecting something.  If I buy a vintage fan, and it is the only vintage fan I own, am I collector of vintage fans?  Not necessarily.  If I bought it because I am starting to collect vintage fans, that's different than if I bought it because it was cheap.  And, if I already own five vintage fans, then I am probably buying it to add to my collection.  So there's a difference in meaning there in starting to collect versus collecting.

Disregarding your examples, perhaps you are trying to discourage the use of infinitives in favor of gerunds?
"To err is human but to really foul things up requires AI."
 
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elleoco

Re: What is this called?
« Reply #2 on: September 04, 2019, 06:16:02 AM »
Janice Hardy had a good discussion of this on her blog. I don't remember that it had a particular name, and I can't point you to the particular post. Recommending her blog couldn't do anyone any harm. She has a lot of good posts on improving word usage.

http://blog.janicehardy.com/

As I remember, she didn't use the kind of example you did where as Dan said, putting the "started to" in might be correct depending on circumstances. She used action examples such as "started to run," and her point was if someone started to run, they ran (unless tripped, etc.), so why throw in the extra words instead of using the more to the point and forceful structure?

twicebitten

Re: What is this called?
« Reply #3 on: September 04, 2019, 07:43:15 AM »
Possibility of what it's called  :icon_think: 1) Verb aspect "aspect conveys other temporal information, such as duration, completion, or frequency, as it relates to the time of action"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grammatical_aspect

Possibility 2) Auxiliary verb (but that's a bit of a cheat)

Possibility 3) It's some obscure modality I've never heard of

The advice is easier than the analysis. If the sentence works without the "started to" or "began to," then omit it.
 

WriteOn

Re: What is this called?
« Reply #4 on: September 04, 2019, 09:30:11 AM »
I asked my editor and she said it's just plain wordiness. I thought it had an actual name, but apparently it doesn't.
 

The Bass Bagwhan

Re: What is this called?
« Reply #5 on: September 05, 2019, 07:22:48 PM »
If you rephrase the question it makes more sense what you're getting at:

"The writer was someone who would collect..."

"The writer collected... "

You could possibly call the first example "verbose" which is a fancy way of say "wordy".

As an editor I would simply calling the solution "tightening up" the prose. And while both are kind of passive, one is worse than the other.
 
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idontknowyet

Re: What is this called?
« Reply #6 on: September 06, 2019, 01:47:33 AM »
My brain hurts reading this. Must learn!
 

JRTomlin

Re: What is this called?
« Reply #7 on: September 06, 2019, 05:32:48 AM »
There is a hesitancy I've observed in some writers - perhaps a beginner writer thing - to say that something happened, full stop. I am not so sure it is wordiness as much as a lack of self-confidence that it is all right to be definite about what you are describing. (Okay, it is wordy but the reason behind it is sometimes that writing is just scary and we try to fudge a bit)

I think it might help to explain that if you say that "he began to run up the stairs..." there is at least an implication that he must have stopped halfway up.  grint
 

PJ Post

Re: What is this called?
« Reply #8 on: September 06, 2019, 06:01:28 AM »
It depends on the big picture. Lots of editors use style guides to force the narrative into a traditional mold, which can often suck the life right out of it. For best results, you and your editor need to be on the same page about what the book is supposed to be.

This is even more crucial with first person present because the prose is characterization. Few people follow style guides when they're thinking. For first present to work well, it's really important for the prose to feel authentic.

 

JRTomlin

Re: What is this called?
« Reply #9 on: September 06, 2019, 06:54:40 AM »
I wouldn't work with an editor who didn't use a style guide. If I don't agree with a CMOS on some point, I simply tell my editor so. Any good editor is capable of adjusting their style guide to individual requirements.
 

The Bass Bagwhan

Re: What is this called?
« Reply #10 on: September 06, 2019, 10:31:52 AM »
I wouldn't work with an editor who didn't use a style guide. If I don't agree with a CMOS on some point, I simply tell my editor so. Any good editor is capable of adjusting their style guide to individual requirements.

Absolutely, as an editor we all need some kind of starting point and CMOS (in the US) fills that role, even though CMOS is still really a journalist's guide to provide consistency across the freelance industry and formal documentation rather than set-in-stone grammar rules for all writing.

When it comes to the finer points of editing a book manuscript the real focus is to interpret the writing and the writer's voice, not strictly apply "the rules". It's not like a legal document that can be analysed to an nth degree to ascertain the correct result. That's why it's called "style". 
 
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PJ Post

Re: What is this called?
« Reply #11 on: September 06, 2019, 10:51:29 PM »
Style guides don't have anything to do with it per se. Microsoft Word has a built-in style guide. My point is that when editors homogenize prose to conform with whatever the current group-think is, they plasticize the narrative. It's like modern pop music. It's not bad, just soulless.

Personally, I won't work with any editor that elevates dogmatic group-think above the goals of my book.

 
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idontknowyet

Re: What is this called?
« Reply #12 on: September 07, 2019, 12:07:41 AM »
Personally, I won't work with any editor that elevates dogmatic group-think above the goals of my book.

This!
 

antares

Re: What is this called?
« Reply #13 on: September 07, 2019, 07:30:50 AM »
I'm trying to explain to a fellow writer to avoid this: the writer started to collect... And that they should instead do this: the writer collected...

What is this called? Avoiding to start, to begin, etc.
Bad writing.  :cool: