Author Topic: Grumbling in Traditional Publishing  (Read 2917 times)

LilyBLily

Grumbling in Traditional Publishing
« on: March 15, 2022, 04:18:57 AM »
https://lunch.publishersmarketplace.com/2022/03/editorial-resignations-at-big-houses-spark-reckoning/

The article refers to an extremely long post about why one person was quitting and makes the interesting claim that since the big bosses are not tech savvy, they have no idea how much work they pile on the assistants. I suspect the big bosses do know and do not care. Working in publishing has been more like a vocation than a career for the past fifty years or so. You take a vow of poverty and give up your life to it.

Somewhere else out there is another recent post in which some author complains bitterly about houses that put all their money on the lead title and have nothing left to promote (or highly compensate) their other authors.

Some agents apparently are quitting, too. Sorry I have no details on these last two; to me, all of these read like the usual miseries and not as proof that trad pub is approaching the apocalypse. It's a tough business. Most people leave disillusioned.
 
 
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angela

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Re: Grumbling in Traditional Publishing
« Reply #1 on: March 17, 2022, 02:13:53 AM »
I read the letter that was on Twitter.

It's strange for me to imagine that the executives in publishing are "technologically illiterate." How old are these people? Most people who are 50 now have been using computers since their 20s. Maybe not people with blue collar backgrounds, but surely people who've worked in a corporate environment.

But... people are lazy, and half of them are below average, so I suppose I can imagine it.

Every industry right now is suffering Brain Drain. The best and brightest like to go off and do their own thing. If you look at self-publishing's success stories, few of those people who got to quit their jobs were quitting low-level jobs (like Howey working in the book store.) Many left a big hole with their former employers.

Brain Drain is everywhere.

When some % of the population only had the options of working in nursing and teaching, those industries benefited from having some of the best and brightest from that segment of the population. Now that those people have more options, it has possibly affected the quality of the work being done in those industries (no slight on anyone working those fields -- we are speaking of the aggregate.)

We'll keep seeing the quality of almost everything go down, except for within those areas that individuals are passionate about, and will continue to work hard at, no matter the compensation. (For example, Dr. Andrew Huberman's podcast about neuroscience.) People loooooove publishing, so I don't think it will tank that hard.

TL/DR Maybe we have good TV and podcasts now because everything else sucks.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2022, 02:16:18 AM by angela »
 
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R. C.

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Re: Grumbling in Traditional Publishing
« Reply #2 on: March 17, 2022, 02:29:48 AM »
...
Brain Drain is everywhere.
...
TL/DR Maybe we have good TV and podcasts now because everything else sucks.

No more so than behind my keyboard.  :doh:

R.C.

 
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Hopscotch

Re: Grumbling in Traditional Publishing
« Reply #3 on: March 17, 2022, 03:09:19 AM »
Could it be trad simply doesn't pay its people well enough to keep them?  A hardback cost about $5 in 1960 when I started buying books.  That translates to around $50 today.  Have salaries gone up 10x to track inflation?  And why not if trad wants to preserve its business?
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cecilia_writer

Re: Grumbling in Traditional Publishing
« Reply #4 on: March 17, 2022, 04:11:00 AM »
Re being technologically illiterate - I worked in an art gallery (a national collection) until I was 72, and while I was computer-literate as a former programmer and database designer, many of my colleagues prided themselves on knowing nothing about technology, with some of them refusing to use email and others constructing their own lists of artworks in MS Word. The people in charge of the modern art collection were some of the more technophobic. Maybe there are people at the top of publishing who are from similar backgrounds.
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LilyBLily

Re: Grumbling in Traditional Publishing
« Reply #5 on: March 17, 2022, 06:19:22 AM »
Publishing has always prided itself on being behind the technological times, but I simply don't believe the bosses don't know exactly what they are asking of the eager young employees.

I once edited a book all about the brain drain in teaching because women now have more remunerative opportunities. The author's radical suggestion was to pay teachers competitive salaries to private industry. That doesn't appear to be happening anytime soon, so we've got teachers for whom it may be a saintly vocation but who themselves may not be the best and brightest. There is a difference between enthusiasm and talent.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2022, 06:23:41 AM by LilyBLily »
 
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Hopscotch

Re: Grumbling in Traditional Publishing
« Reply #6 on: March 17, 2022, 07:19:18 AM »
Profit is made by driving down the cost of labor and materials.  Maybe trad has gone too far and labor ought to wake up and act?
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PJ Post

Re: Grumbling in Traditional Publishing
« Reply #7 on: March 17, 2022, 09:59:38 PM »
We've been working under a pseudo-feudal system for...well, since feudal times. The pandemic and other shifts in society have opened some eyes and workers are deciding to opt out - by the millions. Turns out the meaning of life isn't to waste it all creating wealth for someone else. Who knew?
 
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ashleycapes

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Re: Grumbling in Traditional Publishing
« Reply #8 on: March 19, 2022, 11:30:51 AM »
Same sort of stories from all kinds of industries, sadly.

No surprises that certain management types have little ability but plenty of expectations of those who are actually working.

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RiverRun

Re: Grumbling in Traditional Publishing
« Reply #9 on: March 27, 2022, 08:44:40 PM »
Publishing has always prided itself on being behind the technological times, but I simply don't believe the bosses don't know exactly what they are asking of the eager young employees.

I once edited a book all about the brain drain in teaching because women now have more remunerative opportunities. The author's radical suggestion was to pay teachers competitive salaries to private industry. That doesn't appear to be happening anytime soon, so we've got teachers for whom it may be a saintly vocation but who themselves may not be the best and brightest. There is a difference between enthusiasm and talent.

I read a book a few years ago (can't remember the title at the moment) by a journalist who spent some time in other countries producing some of the the top students in the world. They also had some of the highest paid teachers. I want to say it was Sweden and South Korea. Although in the case of South Korea, it was the after school tutors who were highly paid by the parents.
 

writeway

Re: Grumbling in Traditional Publishing
« Reply #10 on: March 28, 2022, 03:58:59 AM »
Could it be trad simply doesn't pay its people well enough to keep them?  A hardback cost about $5 in 1960 when I started buying books.  That translates to around $50 today.  Have salaries gone up 10x to track inflation?  And why not if trad wants to preserve its business?

This. This right here. They don't pay them enough. They also know how much they pile on workers. THEY DON'T CARE. Publishers are tech saavy. I worked in trade for years. It's not that they don't know how to use technology, it's just that for decades they fought using it. They were built on a certain model, way before the Internet was even thought of so of course it took them some time to catch on but it has nothing to do with ability. Publishers have BILLIONS of dollars and trust me, whatever they don't know, they bring in tech teams and computer companies like Apple to help them along. I think some forget just how powerful money is. Trade pubs (the big ones) have more access to the most current technologies than indies ever could because we don't have the connections nor the money to be able to.  They know about stuff coming out before the public does. For example, trade was dabbling in audiobooks for years before the idea came out the market. They test things for decades to see how if it has a chance of being successful. Same with ebooks. Pubs were doing ebooks before Amazon was invented but no one wanted to read ebooks. They threw a few out into the market back in the early 80s but no one was interested. Back then, everyone wanted print. So by the time Amazon came along (people still didn't want ebooks) but people warmed up to them, etc. Some think Amazon invented ebooks. No way. I believe the first ebook was published in 1971. I don't even know if Bezos was born then. But, just sharing so folks get an idea that this "trade pubs are dumb when it comes to technology" isn't true. There is a difference between being not knowing how to do something and just not wanting to do it. Call it stubborness and a refusal to admit that things are changing. The print model was trade's bread and butter. Why wouldn't they do all they could to preserve it for as long as possible?

They don't pay workers more because they don't have to. Simple as that. Many of these jobs are full of people who don't even have a college education, which makes it harder for them to demand top payment. That's the first thing. Many come straight out of high school and have no experience when they start doing the simplier tasks for pubs. You can move up but mostly pubs aren't paying you big money if you got some job that doesn't demand a top skill. That's like any job.  For years, trade has gotten away with paying people pennies, including authors. With all that's going on in the world, inflation, etc., workers can no longer survive in trade with the small amount they make. But this is no different than any company, even Amazon. All companies pay the "little" employees as little as they get away with and they do it because they know that if you leave, they'll find another who needs a job so bad, they will gladly take the amount.

This is why turnover is so high in retail for example. Because most cannot survive off the tiny amount they make and bosses aren't compelled to raise wages when they know someone else who is desperate for a job will gladly come on even if for a few months. So the cycle goes on and on like this. Until all workers can stand up to small wages (and I'm not blaming the workers, I know it's not so easy, but just saying) then it will always be like this. But you will always have folks who work themselves to death for peanuts for whatever reason and that makes it more difficult for workers overall to receive higher pay.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2022, 04:09:57 AM by writeway »
 
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Cephus

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Re: Grumbling in Traditional Publishing
« Reply #11 on: March 28, 2022, 04:09:57 AM »
Unfortunately, there are a lot of people who think they are worth more than they actually are. As someone else pointed out, there are people who think they deserve more in retail, but they simply don't bring in enough money directly to the company to make themselves worth being paid more. Just because you want it, that doesn't mean you deserve it. That's why you start at in a low-wage position when you don't have a lot of obligations and then learn more and earn your way to a higher wage. Today we have far too many people who think they just deserve it, just because they want it, or because they've put themselves into a position due to life choices where they need more than they're worth.

People act like traditional publishers are making money hand over fist and that's just not true. Most publishing houses are just trying to keep the doors open. They're not some fat cats sitting there lighting their cigars with hundred dollar bills. It all comes down to how much your efforts add to the bottom line. Just because you show up and punch a clock, that doesn't make you financially valuable.
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LilyBLily

Re: Grumbling in Traditional Publishing
« Reply #12 on: March 28, 2022, 04:33:12 AM »
Unfortunately, there are a lot of people who think they are worth more than they actually are. As someone else pointed out, there are people who think they deserve more in retail, but they simply don't bring in enough money directly to the company to make themselves worth being paid more. Just because you want it, that doesn't mean you deserve it. That's why you start at in a low-wage position when you don't have a lot of obligations and then learn more and earn your way to a higher wage. Today we have far too many people who think they just deserve it, just because they want it, or because they've put themselves into a position due to life choices where they need more than they're worth.

People act like traditional publishers are making money hand over fist and that's just not true. Most publishing houses are just trying to keep the doors open. They're not some fat cats sitting there lighting their cigars with hundred dollar bills. It all comes down to how much your efforts add to the bottom line. Just because you show up and punch a clock, that doesn't make you financially valuable.

I would argue that all workers who actually do their jobs are financially valuable. The problem with publishing, as with acting, is that too many people want to do it, which drives salaries and freelance rates down, down, down.

It is not unreasonable to expect an employer to pay a living wage. Nor is it unreasonable to expect one's work hours to be set rather than include unpaid mandatory overtime. Editors routinely are expected to read ms. submissions on their own time. This grinds most people down and they quit, but there is always a new body just off the bus.
 
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Re: Grumbling in Traditional Publishing
« Reply #13 on: March 28, 2022, 04:52:21 AM »
I believe the first ebook was published in 1971.

That was the U.S. Declaration of Independence, typed in by Michael Hart, who founded Project Gutenberg, on July 4, 1971.  Six people downloaded it.
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Jeff Tanyard

Re: Grumbling in Traditional Publishing
« Reply #14 on: March 28, 2022, 05:17:51 AM »
I believe the first ebook was published in 1971.

That was the U.S. Declaration of Independence, typed in by Michael Hart, who founded Project Gutenberg, on July 4, 1971.  Six people downloaded it.


I had no idea Project Gutenberg had been around that long.  That's crazy.  Props to Mr. Hart.
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Cephus

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Re: Grumbling in Traditional Publishing
« Reply #15 on: March 28, 2022, 06:15:40 AM »
I would argue that all workers who actually do their jobs are financially valuable. The problem with publishing, as with acting, is that too many people want to do it, which drives salaries and freelance rates down, down, down.

It is not unreasonable to expect an employer to pay a living wage. Nor is it unreasonable to expect one's work hours to be set rather than include unpaid mandatory overtime. Editors routinely are expected to read ms. submissions on their own time. This grinds most people down and they quit, but there is always a new body just off the bus.

Except that's not how the real world works. Businessses, publishers included, exist to make a profit. If they didn't, they wouldn't exist, with very few exceptions. If you're not adding to their overall profit, you're not worth money to them. That's the very basis of capitalism. Plenty of people don't like that fact but it is, regardless, a fact.
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Re: Grumbling in Traditional Publishing
« Reply #16 on: March 28, 2022, 09:04:46 AM »
That's why you start at in a low-wage position when you don't have a lot of obligations and then learn more and earn your way to a higher wage.

My youngest nephew hired on at Amazon at the grunt level. He's a smart kid. Did everything to accumulate skills that would be useful at Amazon. Today, he's one of their youngest middle managers (in CA at least).

One of my nieces is doing the same thing (loading trucks - truly tough work). But she'll succeed. She's smart and driven, like her younger brother.

That's how people should view low-level, low-paid, grunt jobs. The positions are essentially paid internships. Sure, you can stay in those positions forever. But that's going to be a frustrating experience.
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Cephus

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Re: Grumbling in Traditional Publishing
« Reply #17 on: March 28, 2022, 11:40:12 AM »
My youngest nephew hired on at Amazon at the grunt level. He's a smart kid. Did everything to accumulate skills that would be useful at Amazon. Today, he's one of their youngest middle managers (in CA at least).

One of my nieces is doing the same thing (loading trucks - truly tough work). But she'll succeed. She's smart and driven, like her younger brother.

That's how people should view low-level, low-paid, grunt jobs. The positions are essentially paid internships. Sure, you can stay in those positions forever. But that's going to be a frustrating experience.

Exactly. Back when I was growing up, virtually everyone had a part time job in high school, learning the ropes while they lived at home and had few expenses. It's why, immediately  after I turned 18, I moved into corporate management because I'd spent years proving myself. Far too many people walk out of college with a piece of paper in their hand and figure that qualifies them for a 6-figure salary. It absolutely  does not. You still have to learn how to work. You have to prove that you know how to be responsible, how to show up on time, how to work your backside off, how to deal with people and make a good impression and perform. I say this from personal experience, tons of young people don't have a clue.

It's really why I think not having people working through high school and college is such a bad idea. You need that basic experience before anyone is going to hand you any kind of responsible job. Just because you want it, that doesn't mean you're going to get it. You have to prove yourself first.
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LilyBLily

Re: Grumbling in Traditional Publishing
« Reply #18 on: March 28, 2022, 02:45:01 PM »
We're talking past each other. I understand capitalism very well. However, Horatio Alger was fiction.

The editor who quit cited long years of hard work and success that her company finally admitted was leading...nowhere. No room for her to advance despite the book she acquired that got to the top of the best-seller list. This is not arrogance and lack of expertise talking. This is years of doing all the grunt work, performing beyond expectations, excelling, and still not getting the promotion/raise/promises/whatever. She still had enough stars in her eyes to believe that the bosses did not know exactly how they had used her. Of course they knew.

The sad other half of that story--what I don't believe this person knew when she wrote her post--is that the publisher laid off at least one of its longtime editors this month, too, if not more. No room to grow and no room anymore for the ones already at the pinnacle of editorial success. This may be indicative of hard times in publishing.

I still say the basic expectation of full-time employment is that it's a living wage. That has zero to do with the effort the employee puts into being the best of the bunch and advancing to another role.
 
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Hopscotch

Re: Grumbling in Traditional Publishing
« Reply #19 on: March 29, 2022, 12:29:43 AM »
If tradpub tottering on its rickety structure makes a lot of money for a few people at the top who won't share w/the workers holding the whole thing upright, why don't those workers sharpen their capitalist pitchforks and kindle their torches to go after the share they're due?  Grumbling doesn't make you an extra buck.
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angela

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Re: Grumbling in Traditional Publishing
« Reply #20 on: March 30, 2022, 08:09:00 AM »
If tradpub tottering on its rickety structure makes a lot of money for a few people at the top who won't share w/the workers holding the whole thing upright, why don't those workers sharpen their capitalist pitchforks and kindle their torches to go after the share they're due?  Grumbling doesn't make you an extra buck.

Every person in this forum is literally doing that right now. I eat the lunch of NY publishers every day. Tastes good.
 
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Jeff Tanyard

Re: Grumbling in Traditional Publishing
« Reply #21 on: March 30, 2022, 08:17:30 AM »
I eat the lunch of NY publishers every day. Tastes good.


Sig-line material right there.   :cool:
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elleoco

Re: Grumbling in Traditional Publishing
« Reply #22 on: March 30, 2022, 09:16:59 AM »
This is years of doing all the grunt work, performing beyond expectations, excelling, and still not getting the promotion/raise/promises/whatever. She still had enough stars in her eyes ...

Years ago someone described another person to me as "the hit me again type." When people harm themselves by continuing to wish things were as they want them to be instead of accepting reality, you have to wonder about a martyr complex. Just on forums like this I've seen story after story like this. How can someone in the middle of it ignore reality to their own detriment? At some point the fault is no one's but your own.