I feel like I'm not getting it...

[WasAnn]

First off, my career as a navy officer and scientist in physics for the navy means that I really don't have that salesman gene...like...at all. So, I'm coming into the world of pay per click ads with a significant disadvantage.

I've been playing with Bub ads and AMS ads, but I don't seem to be getting it to click in my head. I've not had a runaway good ad yet. I've had a couple of AMS ads over the years that had amazing ACOS (like 26% over an entire year), but that's rare. Mostly, books in KU are a shot in the dark, though when I stop them, I do seem to decrease reads.

I've no patience for long classes, and I'm not one of those people who wants to take months of writing time to study advertising maths in detail, which might mean I'll never be good at it. What I'd like to know is how you learned to crack this, or is this still a crap shoot with you? Is there daily fiddling with things to try to make it work (which is what I'm doing now), or when you look at your numbers, does it make a specific sort of sense that allows you to make confident changes?

[Simon Haynes]

My approach on AMS is limited to 'Whoa that's a lot of money for zero sales', at which point I lower the bid on that keyword, or pause the entire ad if the spend is not generating any sales.

So I basically tinker with bids, add new keywords when I spot a book which sounds like mine, and pause keywords that are wasting money.

[Maggie Ann]

My approach on AMS is limited to 'Whoa that's a lot of money for zero sales', at which point I lower the bid on that keyword, or pause the entire ad if the spend is not generating any sales.

So I basically tinker with bids, add new keywords when I spot a book which sounds like mine, and pause keywords that are wasting money.

My "whoa" moment is $2 on a keyword, $20 without a sale. Just paused an ad that brought in two full reads but no sales with a decent amount of clicks.

I have a Reading Stacks ad on this book coming up Thursday and I don't want anything else running at the same time. That will give me time to fiddle with keywords and bids on the AMS. I haven't done one in a long time and it's a whole new ballgame.

[Simon Haynes]

I've never bid more than 95c on a keyword - not intentionally at least. Let me tell you about the time I forgot the decimal point in a 25c bid...

It might be the genre I'm in, because the range is often 45 to 85c.

[dgcasey]

I'm doing the 5-Day Ad Challenge right now and the instructor told us to to create ads with a $5 budget. Mine are all $2, thank you very much.

[MCMLXXV]

I'm definitely going to have to take a course before I start advertising, because it looks completely intimidating from the outside looking in. I haven't spent a dime on it yet, and it's not something I'm looking forward to, and yet I know it must be done.

[Paul Gr]

Same here. I've learned what 'going wide' means, though, and plan to go wide with a couple of my books next month.
I'm concerned that the time I spend figuring out advertising will cut into my writing time.
But as you say, it's got to be done.
Maybe it becomes a kind of reflex action after a while, you can write and simutaneously get involved with advertising.

[Paul Gr]

Can't believe you have to take a course in advertising.
Did you have to take a course in writing before you wrote your first book?
Read a few posts by newbie promoters like us, I'm pretty sure you'll pick it up, that's my master plan anyway. 

[dgcasey]

Can't believe you have to take a course in advertising.
Did you have to take a course in writing before you wrote your first book?
Read a few posts by newbie promoters like us, I'm pretty sure you'll pick it up, that's my master plan anyway.

That actually sounds pretty arrogant. Learning to read and write are skills taught in pretty much every school. Learning to advertise your books is a totally different animal and NOT something taught in very many schools at all. To look down your nose at us peasants is not the greatest way I can see to become endeared to the community.

And the course I'm involved with right now, The 5-Day Ad Challenge, is free. Yes, it is a feeder class into a paid course, but if it returns enough money to pay for the paid course, then I'll be happy to fork it over. Because "reading a few posts" about advertising is a sure-fire way of getting a hundred different advertising plans of which most aren't worth the electrons they're printed with on your screen, while a couple of others will be gold. But, us "newbie" authors might not be able to discern which are which.

[Cobbah]

Marketing and advertising for those who haven't been trained in a retail-based office environment that depends largely on a sales force to survive is pretty much an enigma. To those of us who know its intricacies its a simple matter of understanding the product, the market and the customer. Then it's only necessary to target things in the right way and you have a success on a plate, or more likely a failure.

I've seen more marketing executives jump under a bus, figuratively speaking, than I've seen succeed in achieving their aims. Instead of a hit & miss affair it's more of a 'miss, miss, miss, miss, hit, miss, miss, miss, miss' one. There are few (very few) advertising companies out there who boast of multiple successes with their clients. What they don''t tell you is how many advertising gurus the system ate, chewed and spat out to get them there.

Writers are writers, they're not marketing or advertising gurus, they write, fullstop! The only trouble for everyone is there is no guaranteed marketing plan that will work for more than one person at a time. They have to be individually tailored and tested, tested, tested and if word gets out that something works, then it's everyone pile onto the bandwagon until it caves in under the strain. Those who have a working strategy aren't going to tell you and me about it. My point to all this is, there is no easy or reliable strategy to get your book sold. You have to find your own way and whilst all those courses will teach you to do A, B, C if everyone does it the same way, you will all arrive at the point of failure together. Learn how others do it, but not with the intention of copying them. Learn the methods, techniques and strategies and then design your own and test it to breaking point until you get it working for you.

THEN, MOST IMPORTANTLY, DON'T TELL ANYONE WHAT YOU ARE DOING RIGHT.

[Simon Haynes]

I'm lucky, because I spent my working life in small business. One of my many jobs was designing ads, and that meant for the company's weekly newspaper spend as well as the annual yellow pages efforts. (Small business is very DIY. If someone has a skill you use it, even if hiring out might have been better.)

It's a handy background, even if it doesn't translate that well to AMS/FB/Bookbub.

[LilyBLily]

<snip>

THEN, MOST IMPORTANTLY, DON'T TELL ANYONE WHAT YOU ARE DOING RIGHT.

If Jackie Weger hadn't told people, including me, about AMS ads three years ago, I might have given up by now because the trend of my sales was downward to nothing. So I am grateful to people who share. Advertising indie books is a complex endeavor that can take up enormous amounts of time. Information from people like Nick Erik, cutting through the chatter and freely posting lots of data because they did spend the time, is very welcome. 

However, my experience has been that no amount of clever advertising will turn a sow's ear into a silk purse. I have a series that is poison. Nothing sells it, and nothing is going to sell it because of prejudices about its content. Romance readers think it is too culturally elitist, and the culturally elite look down on it as romance. I've used various patented methods that may work for other kinds of books, but they do not work for mine. At bottom, I'm sometimes writing the wrong kinds of books, and I know it. I write the books I feel compelled to write--but that's a different thread.

Advertising can be beneficial to gaining visibility, but then what the books are is what counts. Most of the ad courses you can pay serious money for are keyed to writers who write the same kind of story in the same subgenre consistently. If you do that, then maybe take one of these courses. If, like me, you dabble in multiple subgenres, ads will only sell individual books or at best one series, so spending hundreds of dollars on an ad course would not be profitable.

The only exponential sales I've gotten through advertising were when I went from selling zero copies a month to more than zero. Otherwise, my ad results have been incremental in AMS and abysmal everywhere else.

 

[missingalaska]

My experience is the same as the OP's.  I've had some successful ads; however, by and large, I've never been able to scale up. At best, I've broken even or eked out a few dollars profit in a month. Because my bottom line was about the same with or without ads (little profit), I simply stopped advertising, saving myself the hassle. Of course, I saw the corresponding decrease in sales and page reads on Amazon. I went wide with a first in series and my sales are recovering on other outlets (but not Amazon). I now believe that AMS ads are best used strategically and not as a general sales tool. If bids drop, I might reconsider routine use of AMS -- but I don't see that happening. Instead, I'll reserve those large bids for book launches or as part of a larger marketing strategy (e.g. a Bookbub, etc) -- if I advertise at all (unlikely).

IMHO, the Amazon algorithms are too tightly bound by other factors for ads (and the resultant sales) to make enough of a difference in a book's trajectory to be worthwhile.  I believe (without a shred of proof, mind you, this is only speculation) that your long-term sales history (to include author-rank) is a huge part of the recommendation algorithm.  If you score low, Amazon will not show or recommend you to buyers (in emails, page views, or ads).  As a result, if your book tanked in the beginning due to a bad cover or poor release, ads might never rescue it from the unrelenting calculus of their algorithm.  In other words, if your early books were poor or launched poorly, the algorithms remember that and hold it against you.

[Cobbah]

"If Jackie Weger hadn't told people, including me, about AMS ads three years ago, I might have given up by now because the trend of my sales was downward to nothing."

He wouldn't have told you a bean if his lifeblood depended on it. People are magnanimous after the event and no longer depend on it. You can afford to be generous with all your knowledge, experience and techniques when you've already established yourself in a field. I'm talking about you going out and finding out what works for you (using everyone else's teachings, but mostly your own intuition) and then keeping quite about it because you are not in Jack Weger's position and you cannot afford to share something until you no longer need it. Be a shrewd investor in your own time and effort and use your knowledge wisely.

[Cobbah]

I now believe that AMS ads are best used strategically and not as a general sales tool.

For the small author the AMS ads are best not used at all. They will suck your budget dry and spit you out. There's only so much money you can throw at it and seeing as the concept of advertising bidding is designed around a 'brand awareness' unless you have one you will just feed the profit margins of Amazon or Facebook for little return.

It's a mugs game at our level.

[123mlh]

AMS is what moved me from being a small author to being a mid-level author. It was the best option for me because I didn't have enough books out to effectively use free first in series or run 99 cent promos all the time.

But I also had to get to the point where I had books worth advertising. As LilyBLily said, some books just don't sell well no matter what you throw at them. And some don't scale. I'll hit $100K in gross sales on my AMS dashboard this year. More than a third of that will be for one title.

[Cobbah]

I'll hit $100K in gross sales on my AMS dashboard this year. More than a third of that will be for one title.

I'd be interested in knowing what the cost of getting that $100k was

[123mlh]

I'll hit $100K in gross sales on my AMS dashboard this year. More than a third of that will be for one title.

I'd be interested in knowing what the cost of getting that $100k was

Right now I'm at $91K in Sales on the dashboard with a Spend of $47K. YTD is $40K with a spend of $18K.

Of course the AMS sales numbers are list price so there's that. Then again the sales number doesn't include sellthrough, sales through added visibility, or KU revenue. So really those numbers don't tell you much. But there you have it.

[Cobbah]

I'll hit $100K in gross sales on my AMS dashboard this year. More than a third of that will be for one title.

I'd be interested in knowing what the cost of getting that $100k was

Right now I'm at $91K in Sales on the dashboard with a Spend of $47K. YTD is $40K with a spend of $18K.

Of course the AMS sales numbers are list price so there's that. Then again the sales number doesn't include sellthrough, sales through added visibility, or KU revenue. So really those numbers don't tell you much. But there you have it.

So, You're spending $47K to make $44k and $18K to make $22k and Amazon is making the AMS fee plus the commission on the royalty payment. I'd say that Amazon has a great business going there. Yes, I understand the desirability of this sort of advertising - for Amazon.

[OfficialEthanJ]

So, You're spending $47K to make $44k and $18K to make $22k and Amazon is making the AMS fee plus the commission on the royalty payment. I'd say that Amazon has a great business going there. Yes, I understand the desirability of this sort of advertising - for Amazon.

Emphasis added.

[Shoe]

So, You're spending $47K to make $44k

There's no exact formula. This year I'll spend about $12k to clear $$42k. The $12k spent (on AMS) could probably have been $6k if I knew what I was doing.

[Cobbah]

So, You're spending $47K to make $44k

There's no exact formula. This year I'll spend about $12k to clear $$42k. The $12k spent (on AMS) could probably have been $6k if I knew what I was doing.

How much of that would you have made without AMS spend?  We're looking for the difference between organic sales and AMS generated sales. Let's be conservative and say if your books are worth $100k with AMS, they would be worth $20k without it - fair?
So your real gain is $24k for a cost of $47k your gains won't look quite so good on that basis. I'm not saying you're not onto a good thing, but I think it could turn bad PDQ and that gain could turn into a loss quite quickly. Just my viewpoint. Ignore it if you wish.

[Shoe]

How much of that would you have made without AMS spend?

I paused AMS for two months and my net actually went up. My AMS campaign had been rather less than intelligent (throw a lot of money at it, see what happens).

I can only guess on earnings without AMS. I suspect my net would drop to $30k without it. That's on ten-plus books, several of which are really novellas. Organically, my books rank between 30k-200k. AMS puts them between 10k-120k, with occasional dips to 7k and slips to 300k.

So your real gain is $24k for a cost of $47k your gains won't look quite so good on that basis. I'm not saying you're not onto a good thing, but I think it could turn bad PDQ and that gain could turn into a loss quite quickly. Just my viewpoint. Ignore it if you wish.

Lost me there.

[notthatamanda]

Personally I'd be thrilled if I could spend 50% of my gross on AMS ads and ramp that up to the numbers 123mlh is talking and beyond.  Covers and editing is pocket change when you are talking that kind of gross.  Even if my profit was 40% of my gross that would still be killing it in a lot of business sectors.   1 million gross, 500K to Amazon for ads, 100K for other stuff, 400K in my pocket.  Yes please.

[Cobbah]

Personally I'd be thrilled if I could spend 50% of my gross on AMS ads and ramp that up to the numbers 123mlh is talking and beyond.  Covers and editing is pocket change when you are talking that kind of gross.  Even if my profit was 40% of my gross that would still be killing it in a lot of business sectors.   1 million gross, 500K to Amazon for ads, 100K for other stuff, 400K in my pocket.  Yes please.

Given those kind of numbers who wouldn't - Hell yeah! I'd have some. Trouble is for most people those numbers don't exist. When you add up the ancillary costs in terms of time, effort, designwork for ads, the stress of it all. Then you do a net accounting of everything. You could possibly have done better just writing a few more books and made that much money anyway (another $24k not the $100k)

I have to be clear that I'm against AMS entirely because I think it is a gamble. It's a gamble that you can outbid other authors and the only winner (By a vast amount of money) is Amazon. I'm reluctant to give them a single cent more than I have to. My prejudice of them rules my view on AMS. So please excuse me if my position seems irrational. It's not, but then again it probably is. 

[notthatamanda]

Oh, I understand your point of view much better now, thanks.
I like writing ad copy, and most of my AMS work is done at night or first thing in the morning when I'm useless for other things anyway.

[Cobbah]

It makes me sick in my head to think that I'd have to give Amazon roughly $77,000 to earn $120,000. I feel quite ill even imagining it.

[Post-Crisis D]

You could possibly have done better just writing a few more books and made that much money anyway (another $24k not the $100k)

Once you understand how it works and if you can make it work for you, it is largely a matter of spending money and not a heavy time investment, which means you can increase the sales of existing books without taking too much time at all away from writing more.  Win-win.

I have to be clear that I'm against AMS entirely because I think it is a gamble. It's a gamble that you can outbid other authors and the only winner (By a vast amount of money) is Amazon. I'm reluctant to give them a single cent more than I have to. My prejudice of them rules my view on AMS. So please excuse me if my position seems irrational. It's not, but then again it probably is. 

When I ran Google ads way back when, there was a formula I had learned/been given from somewhere that helped to reduce your chances of losing money.  There's never a guarantee that you won't lose money but you can do what you can to minimize the risk.  I used to advertise physical goods with Google ads.  These were goods that you would most likely buy once and probably never again.  They would last for years and, unless you managed to break it, you wouldn't be likely to buy another.  Probably only 10% of buyers would become repeat customers.  I stopped advertising those products with Google ads when the cost for a click was equal to the profit on the item.  If 100% of the people that clicked on the ad made a purchase and 10% of them made a repeat purchase, sure, then you would make money.  But 100% of people that click are not going to buy, so I was pretty much guaranteed to lose money.  If your entire profit margin is eaten by the cost of a click, what's the point?  It might make sense if I was selling an item they would buy every month, because then you're only losing one month's profits in the hopes of retaining a customer for many more months.  But for a one-off purchase?  Nope.

I get not wanting to give Amazon a penny more than you have to, but they're the largest market and often the first place people think of to buy books or eBooks.  Other companies have/had a chance, but they seem to keep dropping the ball.  B&N maybe had the best chance and they occasionally try to kick the ball around but it seems like they inexplicably deflate the ball first and then scratch their heads wondering why the ball doesn't bounce very far.

[Cobbah]

Once you understand how it works and if you can make it work for you, it is largely a matter of spending money and not a heavy time investment, which means you can increase the sales of existing books without taking too much time at all away from writing more.  Win-win.

I understand how it works. That's why I hate it so much because it's pitting author against author while Amazon sits back and wins 100% of the time.

I get not wanting to give Amazon a penny more than you have to, but they're the largest market and often the first place people think of to buy books or eBooks.  Other companies have/had a chance, but they seem to keep dropping the ball.  B&N maybe had the best chance and they occasionally try to kick the ball around but it seems like they inexplicably deflate the ball first and then scratch their heads wondering why the ball doesn't bounce very far.

I'm not in KU and my books sell wide better than they do on Amazon. So, I wouldn't be able to leverage it enough to make it worthwhile anyway.

[notthatamanda]

It makes me sick in my head to think that I'd have to give Amazon roughly $77,000 to earn $120,000. I feel quite ill even imagining it.

Given that I'm a SAHM and we've been on one income for 15 years anything I make is a bonus.  $120K-$77K = 43K and I don't have to commute, or put up with corporate BS, make my own hours, work as much as I want.  Again, yes please.  Everyone's situation is different, but I have personally would have no problem with this.  It's just the cost of doing business.  I doubt I could make $43K without ads, not that I'm close to that but this is my best year so far.

Just in the interest of transparency, I took this year to learn ads and am putting every cent I make back into the business now.  Happy to break even until I can break out.  I mean breaking even on the cost of everything, not just AMS.

[Post-Crisis D]

It makes me sick in my head to think that I'd have to give Amazon roughly $77,000 to earn $120,000. I feel quite ill even imagining it.

You would spend $77,000.

Then you would see a check or deposit in the amount of $120,000 in your account.

Of that, $43,000 is profit and all yours.  (Well, until the tax-man taketh away . . .)


What if it wasn't Amazon?  What if, today, you sent me* $77,000 and in sixty days I send you $120,000?


Or, to look at it another way, suppose you looked at your bank account today and you had $78,000 in it.  You transfer $77,000 away (to Amazon, me, whoever) and don't look at your account balance for the next sixty days.  Then you look and instead of $78,000, you have $121,000.

And what if you transferred away $120,000 of that money and checked your bank account sixty days later and found $188,000 in there?

Would it bother you that Amazon made $197,000 and the result is that you have $110,000 more in your account than you did four months earlier?

If you hadn't spent that money, Amazon would have earned nothing and you would have $78,000 in your bank account instead of $188,000.





*This is an example.  Don't send me money.  You would not be getting $120,000 back in sixty, or even six hundred, days.  I mean, feel free to send me money, sure.  Just don't expect anything back, ever.

[notthatamanda]

Once you understand how it works and if you can make it work for you, it is largely a matter of spending money and not a heavy time investment, which means you can increase the sales of existing books without taking too much time at all away from writing more.  Win-win.

I understand how it works. That's why I hate it so much because it's pitting author against author while Amazon sits back and wins 100% of the time.

I get not wanting to give Amazon a penny more than you have to, but they're the largest market and often the first place people think of to buy books or eBooks.  Other companies have/had a chance, but they seem to keep dropping the ball.  B&N maybe had the best chance and they occasionally try to kick the ball around but it seems like they inexplicably deflate the ball first and then scratch their heads wondering why the ball doesn't bounce very far.

I'm not in KU and my books sell wide better than they do on Amazon. So, I wouldn't be able to leverage it enough to make it worthwhile anyway.

How is this different from giving the money to Bookbub or Freebooksy?  Doesn't that pit author against author?  I think we have a better chance at competing at AMS than at Bookbub.  AMS will run your ad if you want to bid high enough, and even if you bid really low you may get some impressions, clicks and sales. 

ETA - I'm not trying to convince you to do AMS.  Just waiting for dinner to cook and I'm finding the conversation interesting.

[Post-Crisis D]

Does it help that some of the "authors" you're competing against are really just Internet marketers that'll be gone the minute they spot easy money to be found elsewhere?

[notthatamanda]

I just want to add, it's the long game.  AMS is just a buy in.  Just like a bookbub or a freebooksy, the promotion is getting you up in the ranks, which means more exposure and more sales.  If you are in a smaller category it's easier.  Romance is pretty brutal.

[Cobbah]

I think it's a lot about me and my scruples. I spent a lifetime in advertising and marketing so I know the score. Amazon is feeding off authors and I think its immoral. Yes, there are countless other instances in the world where the feeding frenzy begins the moment a chance comes along for a quick buck. However, Amazon is my pet hate so I pick them out every time.

I hate Facebook equally, Mark Zuckerberg is a cretin.  So, I'm a bit like if I don't like you I won't give you money. I don't like the government or the tax man so I don't give them money either (unless I'm forced to). The same goes for charities I've done extensive research into them over the years and they don't get my money either. Don't get me wrong, if you're needy I'll slip you cash (don't ask) and I make my own donations, but generally speaking I won't support these people if I have a problem with them.

Advertising is an addiction, because it gives you a temporary high, but to keep the high you have to maintain the pressure. I cite the age-old story of Walkers and Smiths crisps as an excellent example. Smith's was number one and decided they were safe enough to stop their advertising spend. In just one year they were overtaken by Walkers who have been number one ever since despite Smiths spending more every year to try and regain their spot.

I would rather write another couple of books, publish and get the $24k that way, and then get it for doing no further work for the next ten years. I'm a writer now, not a businessman. I'm happier in that role.

[Shoe]

I think it's a lot about me and my scruples. I spent a lifetime in advertising and marketing so I know the score. Amazon is feeding off authors and I think its immoral.

Do you have books on Amazon? Take them down. Problem settled.

[missingalaska]

I'll hit $100K in gross sales on my AMS dashboard this year. More than a third of that will be for one title.

I'd be interested in knowing what the cost of getting that $100k was

Right now I'm at $91K in Sales on the dashboard with a Spend of $47K. YTD is $40K with a spend of $18K.

Of course the AMS sales numbers are list price so there's that. Then again the sales number doesn't include sellthrough, sales through added visibility, or KU revenue. So really those numbers don't tell you much. But there you have it.

So, back to the original question. Did you start big or did you scale up?

[Rosie Scott]

Right now I'm at $91K in Sales on the dashboard with a Spend of $47K. YTD is $40K with a spend of $18K.

Of course the AMS sales numbers are list price so there's that. Then again the sales number doesn't include sellthrough, sales through added visibility, or KU revenue. So really those numbers don't tell you much. But there you have it.

This mirrors my experience as well (save for exact numbers). I started out using AMS in late-2017. I made less than $100/month by releasing alone. The month I started using AMS I made four figures and it built from there. My ad spend on AMS seems crazy, but my income is three to four times that. My ACoS has never been below 100%, but I know for a fact AMS has led to better visibility, tons of KU borrows, and sellthrough because if I stop the ads everything drops off a cliff.

There were two things I did recently that boosted sales and decreased my ACoS. One: I increased the daily budgets of my best-selling books by a zero each (going from $200 spend per day to $2000, for one example). AMS never spends my budget, but it certainly tries, leading to more sales and exposure. Two, I spent a few hours one night studying the "Sponsored Products Search term report" and refining/tweaking all my campaigns with new keywords, negative keywords, etc. Not saying these will work for everyone, but they've helped me.

To summarize, WasAnn, I'm not the best at AMS ads (I'd venture to say that title belongs to Anarchist), but I'm learning as I go. Like Cobbah mentioned, it's "miss, miss, hit, miss, miss, hit" but I've learned from misses and hits and stick with what works to refine it so it's closer to "hit, miss, hit, hit, miss, hit". It helps that I have a background in advertising real estate. The two fields are vastly different, of course, but the concepts of learning your market, changing how/what you market to coincide with demand fluctuations, and continuously learning new tips and tricks are relevant to both. I pinpoint what works and then strive continuously to make it work better. I've only used AMS since 2017, but "what works" seems to change on a continual basis.

[Maggie Ann]

What are negative keywords? I've seen them mentioned before.

[dgcasey]

It makes me sick in my head to think that I'd have to give Amazon roughly $77,000 to earn $120,000. I feel quite ill even imagining it.

So, you're one of those that thinks Amazon is supposed to be a charity, giving their goods and services away for free. Sorry, but I don't think the world works that way.

[dgcasey]

What are negative keywords? I've seen them mentioned before.

If you look at your ads dashboard, at the keywords report and see a keyword that pops up a lot, that doesn't seem to be relevant to your books and is getting a lot of clicks, but no sales, you put that keyword into your negative targeting list and it will stop serving.

[Maggie Ann]

What are negative keywords? I've seen them mentioned before.

If you look at your ads dashboard, at the keywords report and see a keyword that pops up a lot, that doesn't seem to be relevant to your books and is getting a lot of clicks, but no sales, you put that keyword into your negative targeting list and it will stop serving.

Thanks. I think I have a lot of those. 

[LilyBLily]

An interesting discussion. If I got off the Amazon ads treadmill, I'd have to do a lot more work of the sort that does not appeal to me. I'd have to create ads for Facebook and BookBub, something at which I have already failed. I'd have to repeatedly and selectively discount my books for BookBub, which is tedious and annoying at best and which at worst will get me into battles with Amazon when it matches my sale prices. I have done Kobo promotions without much success. A handful of sales. Most of the time, Kobo declines me.

I have just finished an experiment of not advertising one of my women's fiction titles on Amazon. It sold almost no copies during that period. Now that I am advertising it on Amazon again, it is selling again. The ad makes me a profit. Historically, book publishing has been a 6% profit business. Grocery stores are a 1% or 2% profit business. Volume makes a huge difference. Next year, I'll have more money to play with and maybe I'll throw around a bigger daily budget and see what happens. But many people have found that a bigger budget does not guarantee that Amazon will show their ads to more people. In fact, often Amazon does not spend all our budgets. Meanwhile, FB and BB ads eat them up and I personally have never made a profit on them.

I know some people hate Amazon, and I understand. Amazon is not a good company. Almost no company is, though.

[123mlh]

I'll hit $100K in gross sales on my AMS dashboard this year. More than a third of that will be for one title.

I'd be interested in knowing what the cost of getting that $100k was

Right now I'm at $91K in Sales on the dashboard with a Spend of $47K. YTD is $40K with a spend of $18K.

Of course the AMS sales numbers are list price so there's that. Then again the sales number doesn't include sellthrough, sales through added visibility, or KU revenue. So really those numbers don't tell you much. But there you have it.

So, back to the original question. Did you start big or did you scale up?

I scaled up over time. I spend more in one month now than I did in my first year or more of running the ads.

First step for me was trial and error between Sponsored Product and Product Display ads. Once I zeroed in on Sponsored Product ads then it was a matter of figuring out what budgets/bids/keywords worked for each book and also applying those lessons more generally across all of my ads. I've never done a lot of ad copy testing. My focus is more on how to target the ads and adjusting to the competition. I find something that works, push it as far as it will go, and then try to keep it going for as long as I can. I also tend to shut down low-performing ads or keywords fast.

[notthatamanda]

There were two things I did recently that boosted sales and decreased my ACoS. One: I increased the daily budgets of my best-selling books by a zero each (going from $200 spend per day to $2000, for one example). AMS never spends my budget, but it certainly tries, leading to more sales and exposure. Two, I spent a few hours one night studying the "Sponsored Products Search term report" and refining/tweaking all my campaigns with new keywords, negative keywords, etc. Not saying these will work for everyone, but they've helped me

So Rosie, were you spending close to the $200 a day before you raised it?  I don't know how to phrase this.  I run a lot of smaller campaigns, and I generally do $10 each.  If I raise them to $100 are the algos looking at me going, damn, this girl is serious, let's place her ads more?  If I am budgeting $10 a day, it might only spend $2-5, but if I budget $50 a day it will find a way to spend $20?

[TimothyEllis]

Right now I'm at $91K in Sales on the dashboard with a Spend of $47K. YTD is $40K with a spend of $18K.

Back in 2018, I had 3 books where I spent 3 figures to make 5 figures, on each book. But how much was this AMS, and how much the books simply hit the spot and hit it out of the ball park on their own? The stats are very inconclusive.

First book in 2019, I spent 4 figures to make 4 figures. Second book I spent nothing to make the same 4 figures. Third book I spend the same nothing to make the same 4 figures.

AMS worked better in 2018. All the changes this year imo, broke AMS. But from my stats, AMS probably never worked at all. I just deluded myself into thinking it did.

It makes me sick in my head to think that I'd have to give Amazon roughly $77,000 to earn $120,000. I feel quite ill even imagining it.

Me too.

But that is why I gave up on AMS. I'm a writer, not a speculator.

[123mlh]

Right now I'm at $91K in Sales on the dashboard with a Spend of $47K. YTD is $40K with a spend of $18K.

Back in 2018, I had 3 books where I spent 3 figures to make 5 figures, on each book. But how much was this AMS, and how much the books simply hit the spot and hit it out of the ball park on their own? The stats are very inconclusive.

First book in 2019, I spent 4 figures to make 4 figures. Second book I spent nothing to make the same 4 figures. Third book I spend the same nothing to make the same 4 figures.

AMS worked better in 2018. All the changes this year imo, broke AMS. But from my stats, AMS probably never worked at all. I just deluded myself into thinking it did.

It makes me sick in my head to think that I'd have to give Amazon roughly $77,000 to earn $120,000. I feel quite ill even imagining it.

Me too.

But that is why I gave up on AMS. I'm a writer, not a speculator.

I know that personally for my books they don't sell without ads. Everyone's experience is different.

[JRTomlin]

I only advertise one book. It is the one that has the biggest sales over a number of years and is a good entry to what I write and my style. I have not only a very good sell-through but believe that people who buy it often buy my other series. It is worth what I spend. I must admit I have tried advertising some of my other novels and for whatever reason (damned if I know) my AMS ads for the others have been fail fail fail fail fail, so I stick with the one that works. I wish there were something on the other retailers that worked as well.

[dgcasey]

I know some people hate Amazon, and I understand. Amazon is not a good company. Almost no company is, though.

I know some people say that and maybe, in some instances it might seem true. But, what would your life as a writer look like right now, IF Amazon didn't come along and create the Kindle and open up a huge portion of their book business to ebooks AND open up a huge portion of their ebook business to independent authors?

What I mean is, any author that thinks Amazon is the devil is quite welcome to leave Amazon, get themselves a traditional deal and go at it that way. I just hope those authors make sure to tell their publishers they don't want to be sold through Amazon for any reason.

[Lynn]

I hate Amazon too these days. However, anyone who thinks I'm going to cut my nose off to spite my face is an idiot just out to make a point that's not really a point but an argument for argument's sake.

I mean, it doesn't have to be all or nothing. I can hate something and what it does to (or how it treats) (some) (group of) people and still find value in it.

(Quite like the bible, to be honest.)

I figure it's safe to bring that up, simply because we've already reached the "if you hate Amazon, don't ever sell anything on Amazon ever" part of the discussion.

As if... 

[Cobbah]

I don't expect Amazon to be a charity.

Amazon is too large so most small authors lack the opportunity to gain visibility - it's almost impossible these days. Amazon makes it that way by using complex algorithms and other questionable website strategies. Then they offer you a more direct route to regain that visibility, but you have to pay them for the privilege. Everywhere else there's no cliff to fall off. Your books gain popularity over time and your income grows organically. In Amazon the reverse happens which means that's the way they plan it to be.

My point is only that AMS is a massive cash cow for Amazon and a treadmill for authors who participate. Sure, you can achieve big earnings, but only by giving Amazon a massively bigger slice of your royalties. I thought we were (collectively) against all that? I'm obviously wrong.
.....

I know what it's like to have negative views pounded into you every day when all you're trying to do is make ends meet or better yourself. It just happens that this time I'm that opposing view. I could be arguing for the sake of it, but I don't agree, so if you want me to stop, then say so and I'll go drive some other poor souls nuts.

[TimothyEllis]

Sure, you can achieve big earnings, but only by giving Amazon a massively bigger slice of your royalties. I thought we were (collectively) against all that? I'm obviously wrong.

You're not wrong.

But AMS was a game changer, and since then, there has been the rise of those who use the ads to sell rather than older strategies.

So what's happening now is there are those who think profit, instead of royalty, and they've moved past the Amazon slice being an issue thing. It's no longer a matter of how much royalty is being made, but do they make a good profit at the end of the month?

[Shoe]

Then they offer you a more direct route to regain that visibility, but you have to pay them for the privilege.

It must be a matter of perspective. Would you rather be scheduling and paying for an endless stream of paid newsletter promotions? They're not cheap either.

Everywhere else there's no cliff to fall off. Your books gain popularity over time and your income grows organically. In Amazon the reverse happens which means that's the way they plan it to be.

I haven't heard that before about other platforms.

As my shelf grows and my books gain a wider audience over time, I'm paying much less for AMS as a percent of sales, and income is becoming increasingly organic (I only advertise a few books. The others rank well with no advertising).

My point is only that AMS is a massive cash cow for Amazon and a treadmill for authors who participate. Sure, you can achieve big earnings, but only by giving Amazon a massively bigger slice of your royalties. I thought we were (collectively) against all that? I'm obviously wrong.

My point above is I'm paying progressively less for advertising as time goes on, and my net income continues to rise. Why? Because Amazon gave me a leg-up with their in-house advertising while I was building my brand. Now I don't need it so much. Hopefully, someone day I won't need it at all.

[Cobbah]

It must be a matter of perspective. Would you rather be scheduling and paying for an endless stream of paid newsletter promotions? They're not cheap either.

I'm sure perspective is everything. A different perspective can only be gained by looking at things from that viewpoint. As to advertising. There are incentives for doing things differently. Take AMS, you spend $47,000 improving your sales in Amazon. It does nothing for you outside of their world. Imagine if you spent $47,000 selling your books or brand to the whole world where they could purchase your books from their favoured outlet. Would that provide you with greater visibility than just Amazon? would that give you a greater perspective?

Everywhere else there's no cliff to fall off. Your books gain popularity over time and your income grows organically. In Amazon the reverse happens which means that's the way they plan it to be.

I haven't heard that before about other platforms.

Really? It's been an established factor for many of us out there. It takes time, but I believe the rewards are more long-lived and visibility improves organically without effort. Then, when you do something like Bookbub, the sales jump dramatically and from that point on you retain much of that improvement in sales over the coming years.

As my shelf grows and my books gain a wider audience over time, I'm paying much less for AMS as a percent of sales, and income is becoming increasingly organic (I only advertise a few books. The others rank well with no advertising).

Absolutely. What we're talking about is visibility, but why restrict yourself to Amazon?

My point above is I'm paying progressively less for advertising as time goes on, and my net income continues to rise. Why? Because Amazon gave me a leg-up with their in-house advertising while I was building my brand. Now I don't need it so much. Hopefully, someone day I won't need it at all.

I don't disagree that it's all about visibility. My take on this is why pay $47,000 to Amazon to reveal you to their customers when you can spend the equivalent amount and be seen by the whole world.

I'm not trying to make an argument here, I think it's good to push your awareness out and test it in the real world. Amazon is your biggest market, but it isn't the only option. The VFM option would appear to be AMS on Amazon, but that much money spent around the world could have a much longer tail and turn you into a global brand as opposed to an Amazon one. Which one you choose is up to you.

At the end of the day it's purely a choice, but as you say, perspective is everything.

[Hopscotch]

Curious about one AMS "effect":  After much up and down with bids, have come to conclude that AMS ads = sales is a wrong(ish) conclusion but buying AMS ads = sales isn't.  Ie, is Amazon pay-to-play, no matter how little you pay?  Or am I wrong about that as about marketing methods in general?

[notthatamanda]

I can't spend elsewhere to make the sales work.  I've tried.  I'm not a book a month publisher so putting the same books on the same newsletter promo sites over and over offers diminishing returns.  I've had one international bookbub and I've pretty much given up on ever getting another one.  Kobo is running a survey and I told them I have no idea how to market a new, full price book with them, what should I do?  Didn't hear back.

I was very happy with Kobo the first six months I was there (2nd half of 2017).  Then I absolutely fell off the cliff there.  My guess is more people went wide and there were a lot more books to choose from all of a sudden.  I can't even get a free page over there anymore and I never made any money on the more expensive promos when they did accept me, so I won't do those. The nice thing is the promos that take 10% of your sales, but I think the most I've ever sold through one of those is 5 books.

I have no ideas on how to promo on Apple or B&N.  DVD got a free promo from B&N once, which he said was as good as a bookbub.  Maybe someday I'll get one of those but I doubt it.

[Cobbah]

Then maybe what's needed is a plan to create a new means of getting the Indies out there in front of the populace.

How much would it cost to buy up a whole page in the NYT? A Sunday edition probably so you can get the browsers who like to read interested. You then need a reporter to interview someone or several someones prominent in the Indie field and offset the overall cost of the page with paid advertising from other indies, the combination of articles and ads, with links to a sales platform (not Amazon) that could harness all the online interest and you could have a winner. Get a manager that represents your group and share the cost. Change the dynamics of the book market by upping your overall game. This isn't directed at anyone, but if it sparks any ideas either on a State level or similar, then you have something to aim for. It's workable if collectively there are people here who have the right contacts and can work together. If you can risk your spend on AMS ads, then this is for you.

[notthatamanda]

That wouldn't be something I would participate in, can't see it panning out without a whole lot of luck, but I'm all for throwing as many ideas out there as we can.

[Cobbah]

That wouldn't be something I would participate in, can't see it panning out without a whole lot of luck, but I'm all for throwing as many ideas out there as we can.

You could apply the same technique to vertical media, like girl mags, romance or survivalist gigs. It's a matter of choosing your marketplace and then joining forces with others to split the cost and make an impact in a big way. If you want to make a breakthrough you have to be different and innovative and that's how you do it.

[Cobbah]

For the SFF writers on here - you could put together a proper (kosher) online magazine that was free to anyone. Put it on a website and promote the crap out of it far and wide (not subscribers). Use the links to sell advertising [again] to pay for promotion in real-world magazines. It's something that would have a longterm effect, always there increasing SEO opportunities that would drive more traffic to you online. Continually paid for out of mutual budgets or paid ads. You have to see the market from a different perspective and be imaginative, then you can get ahead of the game. It's wide open.

[dgcasey]

I can't spend elsewhere to make the sales work.  I've tried.  I'm not a book a month publisher so putting the same books on the same newsletter promo sites over and over offers diminishing returns.

I feel your pain, Amanda. I went wide for a year and a half and spent a few hundred dollars on ads at Bookbub, ENT and others and sold exactly six ebooks. Zero paperbacks.

Absolutely not worth it to me. I pulled all my ebooks out of wide back in June and around the end of July, put them all back into KU. The royalties were so small at D2D that I didn't even bother to ask for a check when I cleared my shelf at their site. If they end up sending me one some day down the road, I'll happily take it and head to Chick-fil-A for a #1 Deluxe. I should just about be able to afford it.

I'm not setting the world on fire just yet, but I am seeing an increase in sales and page reads and look forward to growing that over time.

Much as we might not like it, Amazon is the biggest sandbox in the world when it comes to publishing independently. If we want to play in that sandbox, we have to buy a ticket. Simple as that. Some here are pointing at someone spending $47K to sell $75K worth of books and wagging their finger at them. If it was me, I pay that happily and even look for ways to ramp it up.

[Cobbah]

Some here are pointing at someone spending $47K to sell $75K worth of books and wagging their finger at them. If it was me, I pay that happily and even look for ways to ramp it up.

I'm not wagging fingers at people. I'm simply stating an alternative interpretation of the results. I wasn't aware that it was wrong to do so.

[missingalaska]

So Rosie, were you spending close to the $200 a day before you raised it?  I don't know how to phrase this.  I run a lot of smaller campaigns, and I generally do $10 each.  If I raise them to $100 are the algos looking at me going, damn, this girl is serious, let's place her ads more?  If I am budgeting $10 a day, it might only spend $2-5, but if I budget $50 a day it will find a way to spend $20?

I've had the same question. When I was advertising on AMS, I had a hard time getting Amazon to spend my budget.

My guess is that Amazon will only increase ad budgets and spends if they believe the book is going to sell to those they advertise it to -- which is algorithmically based.  So, if your book is already selling well, their ad algorithm responds by saying "Yes, give me more money and I'll spend it."  If your book has low potential (based upon prior sales, Authorrank, or whatever goes into the calculation), I'm guessing that it would take quite large individual bids to get the algorithms attention. This may be why the people I've seen who've had the most success with AMS tend to be newbies without a history or those who had books that sold reasonably well from the outset, even without ads.

OTOH, maybe I was too conservative with $10 and $20 budgets a day -- which the algorithm might disregard for whatever reason.  I've never been brave enough to start at a $100 budget a day...  For me, it's a little bit of the "chicken or egg" conundrum.  I don't have the sales to tickle the algorithm, but I can't get the sales to draw the attention of the algorithm without huge ad spends. I guess this boils down to how much you believe in your books. How much risk are you willing to accept?

[notthatamanda]

Alaska - I took my two best campaigns from yesterday (I just started a bunch of new ones) and raised the budgets from 10 to 20.  One of them spent 9 on the first day, the other 3 (that was an older campaign) actually.  I'll see what happens.

DG - I make more on Amazon out of KU.  KU was obviously cannibalizing my sales so I'm not going back in.  Maybe it's a genre thing.  Off to check the Kobo site for the latest promos.

[missingalaska]

Some here are pointing at someone spending $47K to sell $75K worth of books and wagging their finger at them. If it was me, I pay that happily and even look for ways to ramp it up.

I'm not wagging fingers at people. I'm simply stating an alternative interpretation of the results. I wasn't aware that it was wrong to do so.

I think most of us would be happy with those returns!   

That said, the current system of advertising for a fee replaces what Amazon used to do for free.  Previously, Amazon sold books based upon also-boughts and "You-Might-Like" browser ads/emails.  Today, those have been, for all practical purposes, replaced by a system that rewards those who buy ads.  If you don't buy ads, your also-boughts will suffer dramatically. Furthermore, the algorithm (likely) won't organically recommend a book (in emails or page ads) that is not already selling.

What this results in is a system where that 70% royalty really doesn't exist if you want Amazon to sell your books for you.  Can it be lucrative? Sure...  But it's also hard to get your foot in the door.

[Simon Haynes]

If you went to any sane investor and told them they could put 45k in and get 75k back they'd rip your arms off to get at the deal.

[missingalaska]

If you went to any sane investor and told them they could put 45k in and get 75k back they'd rip your arms off to get at the deal.

This assumes there is no risk.  The worst case scenario is that every bit of that advertising money could be entirely lost with no return on investment.  Naturally, the OP did their research and had a good product to sell. This isn't something that just anyone can pull off.

[Simon Haynes]

True, but nobody goes to AMS and lays out 45k or so, only to sit around and see what happens. It's a build up from small beginnings, putting more in when earlier attempts and lower amounts seem to work.

[LilyBLily]

Sane investor? The kind of offer you suggest is a sucker bet in the world of investing. This is how the Bernie Madoffs of the world make their fortunes and how the crooks selling variable annuities clean up. In the immortal words of Ann Landers, "If it looks too good to be true, it probably is."

Our advantage with these ads is we don't have to be all in and risk 45k on one throw of the dice.

[Dormouse]

If you went to any sane investor and told them they could put 45k in and get 75k back they'd rip your arms off to get at the deal.

I think sane investors have a lot of experience of people telling them this. And observed that it doesn't usually work out the way that was said.

[Simon Haynes]

Leave aside the matter of risk, which wasn't what I was getting at. I'm not talking about billionaires milking the system and ripping people off, either.

I'm talking about return on investment.

A few here seemed to be saying they'd never spend 45k to earn 75k, and I'm saying a property developer or an investor or anyone in any industry but indie publishing would gladly take that sort of return. Most small businesses operate on tiny margins, if they make money at all, and they'd take that sort of return too.

Now, that sort of spend doesn't fit my risk profile, which is fine. I get that others don't want to spend 45k either.

But putting money into advertising is just a cost of doing business in most other fields, and so if an indie publisher approaches their business like any other industry, I'd expect them to be spending a large amount of money on advertising, because that's how business works.

[notthatamanda]

Leaving the stock market off the table, I can't really think of running a business where you can invest in what ever increments you want.  Small, even miniscule.  You can raise your campaign budget by a dollar, or ten.  In other businesses you want improvements, the costs are usually fixed and much higher.

I saw a big time internet company venture capitalist, whose name completely escapes me, sorry, say that he looks for companies that are making 20% profit.

I think AMS was Amazon's answer to when they figured out how much money bookbub and the other newletter sites were taking in.  And I don't see the difference to giving the money to AMS versus bookbub or another site.  Except AMS doesn't do any gate keeping on who is allowed to try.

[Cobbah]

I think this discussion has commuted into something quite interesting.

1) Most people are happy for Amazon to take 90% of royalties so long as their net result ends up higher than they would otherwise of gained on a level playing field.

2) Many authors are beginning to see themselves as business people. I just hope they have, or can learn, business practices as well and as quickly as they can write. Certainly before they run out of money.

3) People can see the benefits of Amazon, but cannot see, or don't believe those same benefits can be achieved in the wider marketplace.

4) Everything is perspective. Many here are [or appear to be] subject to success or failure within Amazon. Going wide isn't an option, or they've tried and failed with item 3. Reasons for failure? Unknown, but possibly lack of understanding of item 2, but probably more a case of item 3.

5) Everyone here hopes to emulate the success of some of the others on here.

Advertising is a very expensive game. If you get it right, you win. If you get it wrong, you're generally out of pocket. Like all speculation your investment can go down as well as up. All bets placed at your own risk and all that...

As a footnote to this I really admire the determination of many people to make AMS work for them. I love to hear the success stories. Just keep an eye on the end goal.

Cobbah

[Shoe]

Cobbah

Bixso?

[Simon Haynes]

I think this discussion has commuted into something quite interesting.

1) Most people are happy for Amazon to take 90% of royalties so long as their net result ends up higher than they would otherwise of gained on a level playing field.

90% is a bit much. Most of the figures I've seen are closer to 50%

By the way, back in the mid-90's I worked for a fairly large home improvements company which spent about 40% of turnover on ads. The rest was wages and other incidental expenses. At least indies don't face those costs as well.

2) Many authors are beginning to see themselves as business people. I just hope they have, or can learn, business practices as well and as quickly as they can write. Certainly before they run out of money.

Like it or not, an indie author IS running a business. The good thing is, you can be a roadside flower stall selling blooms you picked from your own garden, or a nationwide retailer with thousands of stores... along with the far greater expenses that entails. There's a lot of freedom

3) People can see the benefits of Amazon, but cannot see, or don't believe those same benefits can be achieved in the wider marketplace.

I've been doing this for over 20 years. Since 2011, I've only had one three month period where half my work (6 books at the time) was exclusive to KU. The rest of that time I've been wide, because that's what I believe in.

I still remember when people treated Myspace like it was going to be around forever. Also the Soviet Union.

4) Everything is perspective. Many here are [or appear to be] subject to success or failure within Amazon. Going wide isn't an option, or they've tried and failed with item 3. Reasons for failure? Unknown, but possibly lack of understanding of item 2, but probably more a case of item 3.

Wide is hard, especially if you flip-flop between being in KU and not. Wide is also a better choice if you have visibility outside Amazon - a blog, website, a newsletter with thousands of readers... anything that can drive traffic. If you're unknown outside the Amazon ecosystem, then KU is probably a better choice.

5) Everyone here hopes to emulate the success of some of the others on here.

Doesn't apply to me. I have my own goals, my own to-do list, my own strategy. I love being a full-time author, but I'm not a big spender and I take pleasure in making what I do earn go a long way.

Have you ever played a computer game where you grind away, slowly making progress, until eventually you own everything and there's nothing left to do? For me, the grinding and slow steady progress is the fun part, not the own everything and bored part.

Advertising is a very expensive game. If you get it right, you win. If you get it wrong, you're generally out of pocket. Like all speculation your investment can go down as well as up. All bets placed at your own risk and all that...

As a footnote to this I really admire the determination of many people to make AMS work for them. I love to hear the success stories. Just keep an eye on the end goal.

Cobbah

I strongly disagree about advertising being expensive.  I'm not just being argumentative, I genuinely think that's the wrong way to look at it.

When I get a Bookbub it costs me around US$700. To many, that's hugely 'expensive'. But it isn't, it's like having a machine that returns $2 every time you insert $1. How much money would you shove into that machine?

I've had three bookbubs in the past 12 months, and each time I've netted approximately US$2000-$3000 in total over the subsequent weeks, above and beyond my long-term average royalties. In other words, directly attributable to the immediate sales boost AND the long-term increase in visibility. I'd spend $700 on a bookbub every day if I could, and others are spending money on AMS ads because they know they can achieve similar results.

They're not gambling or risking money, they're paying for a service (AMS) which gives them a measurable result. If their ads stop working they know immediately, not after they've spent, say, $45000.

[TimothyEllis]

1) Most people are happy for Amazon to take 90% of royalties so long as their net result ends up higher than they would otherwise of gained on a level playing field.

Most? 

No. Some. The rest of us think 30% is either reasonable or too much.

[Simon Haynes]

PS

"Half the money I spend on advertising is wasted; the trouble is I don't know which half." John Wanamaker (1838-1922)

[notthatamanda]

I looked at my net versus growth (edit- gross, sorry) for each month, my profit became my ad allowance for the next month.  I check my royalties versus ad spend every day to make sure I'm profitable.  I have some days when I am not, but I stay on top of it, make sure I'm always in the black for the year.  This is how I always ran this.  My first cover was off the KDP cover generator, then I saved what little I made until I could hire a cover artist.  I won't take money out of the family budget to spend on this venture.
That is what I would advise anyone to do, if they asked.  You can't put money into AMS and expect it to spit more back out at you, so know what you can afford and don't go over that limit hoping it will pay out.

[Joe Vasicek]

Sure, you can achieve big earnings, but only by giving Amazon a massively bigger slice of your royalties. I thought we were (collectively) against all that? I'm obviously wrong.

There was a brief period from approximately 2008 to 2014 when the indie author community had great camaraderie and everyone (for the most part) was supportive of each other. This overlapped with the "gold rush" era of self-publishing, from 2010 when authors like Amanda Hocking and Hugh Howie proved that self-publishing was both viable and potentially lucrative, through the Author Earnings reports, which ended in early 2018. But the gold rush era probably ended sometime in 2016, as the indie author community was already fracturing by then.

The big thing that killed all the camaraderie in the indie author community was Kindle Unlimited. The community split into pro-KU and anti-KU camps, with some (like Mark Coker of Smashwords) warning that it would pit author against author and take the "indie" out of indie publishing. These arguments quickly became ideological, and the proponents of other side became ideologues who would use any data they could find to discredit their ideological opponents.

In the early days, it was relatively common for indie authors to open up and share sales data with the rest of the community. In part, this was a way to encourage people by showing that yes, self-publishing was viable—the "kiss of death" era of self-publishing was over. But with the increasing ideological splits over questions of exclusivity and independence, people started using their opponents' ranking and sales data as a way to discredit them. If someone suggested an idea or put forward an argument that challenged the established wisdom of either camp, calls would invariably come forward for that person to "prove themselves" by sharing sales data.

As a consequence of this, many long-time pillars of the indie author community either went silent or started posting anonymously. Newer authors who broke in after this period saw no reason to become embroiled in these arguments, and were much more quiet about their success. This was revealed when the Author Earnings Report became Bookstat, and (rather foolishly) posted a list of the top 100 indie authors, calculated using aggregated data.

KBoards, which originally served as the beating heart of the indie author community, became increasingly infected with groupthink. Other rival communities branched off, like 20 books to 50k and (yes) Writer's Sanctum. Nowadays, most of the indie author community is spread out across various private and public Facebook groups, with all of the baggage and other problems that come along with that platform. The major indie blogs like Passive Voice no longer get the kind of traffic that they used to, as everyone now is either caught up in their own echo chamber, or quietly plugging along with very little interaction with the community at large.

In some ways, the indie author community was a victim of its own success. Self-publishing is a proven business model now, whereas in 2008 it was still considered by the mainstream to be the "kiss of death." In other ways, the era of camaraderie began with the rise of KBoards and ended when that community fell apart. But you make a good point, Cobbah, about how Amazon is pitting us all against each other. That started in 2014 with Kindle Unlimited, and has escalated significantly with Amazon's advertising platform.

[Cobbah]

Cobbah

Bixso?

You're just being insulting now. 

I've had three bookbubs in the past 12 months, and each time I've netted approximately US$2000-$3000 in total over the subsequent weeks, above and beyond my long-term average royalties. In other words, directly attributable to the immediate sales boost AND the long-term increase in visibility. I'd spend $700 on a bookbub every day if I could, and others are spending money on AMS ads because they know they can achieve similar results.

They're not gambling or risking money, they're paying for a service (AMS) which gives them a measurable result. If their ads stop working they know immediately, not after they've spent, say, $45000.

My last Bookbub netted me just under $15,000. I'm not stranger to advertising and I consider that my $700 investment to be well spent.

Most? 

No. Some. The rest of us think 30% is either reasonable or too much.

I was calculating approx 60% cost of AMS, plus the 30% Amazon take off you in royalties on top of that.

[Cobbah]

PS

"Half the money I spend on advertising is wasted; the trouble is I don't know which half." John Wanamaker (1838-1922)

It's an imperfect world. Sometimes it doesn't matter which half, advertising can end up wasting both.

[123mlh]

I think a lot of what Joe says above is an excellent summary, but the authors vs. authors issue isn't Amazon's fault IMO. It's the result of a maturing market where there's finally enough supply to meet demand and then too much supply for the available demand. In a sense the "look how much you can make" early attitude directly led to the "hey, wait a second where did my sales go, maybe not everyone really is my friend after all" issue.

[Cobbah]

the authors vs. authors issue isn't Amazon's fault

Yes, it is, but only because they look at authors as a resource for pulling in cash. They never liked it when their hand was forced into conceding 70% of the income to authors. KU was their way of altering the playing field. AMS tilted it even further. You won't see it coming, but there will come a time when you're trapped in the Amazon grinder with too much commitment to make it pay, but also too much commitment to walk away.

You see this every day in the KU market. Every month everyone is hanging onto the fraction of a cent that they're going to make on their page reads. That dog-eat-dog mentality that erupts as soon as someone discovers that some new means of gaming that same tiny fraction of a cent is being ramped. If you want to be a successful business it's not through being beholden to Amazon.

It isn't just amazon's fault. It's our fault too.

[123mlh]

I'm mostly wide. Just so you know.

And if Amazon had never existed the market still would have matured and authors still would have found themselves competing for ad space and readers. Where there's profit to be made people will keep entering that market until things reach equilibrium.

[Shoe]

Every month everyone is hanging onto the fraction of a cent that they're going to make on their page reads.

Of whom do you speak when you say "everyone"? I don't remember casting a vote. Anyway, aren't subscription models the wave of the future, KU included? I think there's another platform giving it a go. I can't remember which.

There are far too many authors who view Amazon as a resource for pulling in cash and not the other way around. Hence, the crap that's out there, and the gaming and scheming. But I doubt the authors making a living through Amazon feel abused, which isn't to say they don't often feel annoyed by glitches or lack of transparency in certain areas (like AMS).

[Joe Vasicek]

Shoe,

There's a reason why the KENPC monthly payout rates thread (which you started, BTW) is sticky at the top of the "What are Amazon doing now?" forum—and why the ratio of views to replies is higher than almost any other thread.

[Shoe]

Shoe,

There's a reason why the KENPC monthly payout rates thread (which you started, BTW) is sticky at the top of the "What are Amazon doing now?" forum—and why the ratio of views to replies is higher than almost any other thread.

I'm not following. The number is just datum I plug into my spreadsheets.

[TimothyEllis]

I was calculating approx 60% cost of AMS, plus the 30% Amazon take off you in royalties on top of that.

For those using AMS, and accepting that ratio.

But a huge proportion of AMS users restrict it to $10 a day or something small, so this wont apply to them, and it wont apply to everyone not using AMS at all.

[MCMLXXV]

Maybe a podcast dedicated to reviewing only indie books could be a way of increasing visibility for indie authors by introducing readers who might normally avoid indie fiction? Perhaps same idea for YouTube (Booktube)?

There are many indie-focused podcasts that feature author-centric content like author interviews or indie publishing news or are craft focused, but are there many book review podcasts which exclusively review indie titles, at least ones with a significant audience?

There are quite a few book review podcasts out there that have very large audiences, and boost the platforms of the authors whose books they talk about. But, I'd wager almost 100% of the books every one of those popular podcasts review are traditionally published.

Imagine the visibility boost for indies if you could build a similarly sized audience for a podcast that only reviews self-published books. It'd be a boon to the community.

The first rule though, in the interest of attracting listeners in significant numbers, would be to NOT mention it's only going to be reviewing indie titles. I wouldn't mention that as a podcast feature at all, even if that's the basic ethos behind it.

The reason I say you wouldn't use that indie-only mantra as a selling point to would-be listeners is because at the outset I don't think it would be an attractive proposition when it comes to mainstream readers looking for book review podcasts to consume. I don't mean that as a slight to indie authors, not at all given that I am one, but I could see advertising a podcast as only reviewing indie books as being attractive to only a small, niche audience because a stigma still exists in the minds of a lot of readers.

You'd want to appeal to the broader market I think in trying to really gain a large audience, and it could put off potential listeners looking for similar fare to the big book review podcasts like Slate, BBC, Wired, Book Riot, Bookworm, Overdue, Sword & Laser, etc etc. But, you definitely would want to draw those same people in.

The great thing is, if it worked, a totally indie focused book review podcast could be a great way to break some preconceived notions some of these normally trad-focused readers may have about self-published fare, in time without them even realizing it's what you're doing because you're not explicitly stating that's what you're doing.

So, hypothetically, you could draw people in and start by reviewing top selling self-published books that appear at the tops of subgenres in the Kindle Store so mainstream readers would have familiarity with seeing them on the lists and potentially they would listen.

Then maybe, eventually your listeners will catch on that each week it's never a trad pub book being reviewed. By then however, even if a listener is a bit put off to never see a trad pub book being reviewed on the show, the readers who are listening to you and enjoy your podcast in significant numbers likely won't care all that much. And, if you've pulled that off, you've then succeeded in shining a light on books a lot of those readers never would have considered before. Or, that'd be the idea, anyway.

On the author side, if it became a viable show with a sizable audience, a lot of indies would likely want their books featured by that point because of the significant boost in visibility.

Anyway, just spit-balling here. Maybe it's a mountain too high to climb, who knows?

Perhaps there already are really popular podcasts doing this (reviewing exclusively indie fiction), and I just haven't found them?

[notthatamanda]

The dang "you have to update your payment method" is back and it is not working.  Tried changing it to the Visa so I could change it back to the Amex, it wouldn't take either and locked up completely.  Maybe they'll shut me off completely and I'll sell the same, or more.  Who knows?

[TimothyEllis]

The dang "you have to update your payment method" is back and it is not working.  Tried changing it to the Visa so I could change it back to the Amex, it wouldn't take either and locked up completely.  Maybe they'll shut me off completely and I'll sell the same, or more.  Who knows?

Email again.

[Anarchist]

The dang "you have to update your payment method" is back and it is not working.  Tried changing it to the Visa so I could change it back to the Amex, it wouldn't take either and locked up completely.  Maybe they'll shut me off completely and I'll sell the same, or more.  Who knows?

I'm dealing with this issue, too.

I recommend you call Amazon through Author Central and get transferred to a KDP rep. Explain the issue, and ask the rep to have the technical group that works with the Ads platform look at it. (KDP reps are not experts on the Ads platform.)

Also, mention that you've noticed other KDP authors reporting the issue. That may help to expedite the matter.

In my case, the issue is not with my bank. I confirmed with them this morning that my account is set to approve all communications from Amazon regardless of dollar amount. I dealt with this issue a couple of years ago, and at that time it was due to my bank.

[TimothyEllis]

The dang "you have to update your payment method" is back and it is not working.  Tried changing it to the Visa so I could change it back to the Amex, it wouldn't take either and locked up completely.  Maybe they'll shut me off completely and I'll sell the same, or more.  Who knows?

In my case, the issue is not with my bank. I confirmed with them this morning that my account is set to approve all communications from Amazon regardless of dollar amount. I dealt with this issue a couple of years ago, and at that time it was due to my bank.

This isn't another version of the India issue is it?

A while back they kept telling authors their bank details didn't work for India payments, and refused to listen to authors telling them everything else worked just fine. The message was much the same as this one. The problem was at the India end of KDP.

Just a thought.

[notthatamanda]

Thanks guys, I might have to put off contacting them until tomorrow.  My ads are still running and they are still counting my clicks.  Just can't do new ads for now.

[Anarchist]

Thanks guys, I might have to put off contacting them until tomorrow.  My ads are still running and they are still counting my clicks.  Just can't do new ads for now.

FYI: This issue has been resolved for me.

[notthatamanda]

The dang "you have to update your payment method" is back and it is not working.  Tried changing it to the Visa so I could change it back to the Amex, it wouldn't take either and locked up completely.  Maybe they'll shut me off completely and I'll sell the same, or more.  Who knows?

I'm dealing with this issue, too.

I recommend you call Amazon through Author Central and get transferred to a KDP rep. Explain the issue, and ask the rep to have the technical group that works with the Ads platform look at it. (KDP reps are not experts on the Ads platform.)

Also, mention that you've noticed other KDP authors reporting the issue. That may help to expedite the matter.

In my case, the issue is not with my bank. I confirmed with them this morning that my account is set to approve all communications from Amazon regardless of dollar amount. I dealt with this issue a couple of years ago, and at that time it was due to my bank.

Went to create a new ad, which reminded me of the problem, which I had completely forgotten about.  But the problem is fixed and my account is on the card I want.  Thank you Anarchist and whoever else went through the hassle of speaking to them about it.

[Marti Talbott]

I can't spend elsewhere to make the sales work.  I've tried.  I'm not a book a month publisher so putting the same books on the same newsletter promo sites over and over offers diminishing returns.  I've had one international bookbub and I've pretty much given up on ever getting another one.  Kobo is running a survey and I told them I have no idea how to market a new, full price book with them, what should I do?  Didn't hear back.

I was very happy with Kobo the first six months I was there (2nd half of 2017).  Then I absolutely fell off the cliff there.  My guess is more people went wide and there were a lot more books to choose from all of a sudden.  I can't even get a free page over there anymore and I never made any money on the more expensive promos when they did accept me, so I won't do those. The nice thing is the promos that take 10% of your sales, but I think the most I've ever sold through one of those is 5 books.

I have no ideas on how to promo on Apple or B&N.  DVD got a free promo from B&N once, which he said was as good as a bookbub.  Maybe someday I'll get one of those but I doubt it.

I've never heard of anyone making money on Bookbub ads. The only way to promote to Apple or B&N that I know of is a site like Freebooksy that promotes to those sites. I don't buy ads on sites that only promote to Amazon. On your Kobo dashboard, at the top of the page, click on "promotions." They charge, but they take the money out of your sales instead of making you pay up front. I rarely get an ad through them - always rejected.

As for AMS, I've over promoted my free books, so right now it's my only option. However, I am only paying $.15 per click on free books, and no more than $.25 on paid. After years of this, I'm convinced the pay-more-make-more idea is a hoax. I can't match the big money spenders, so why try?

It's keywords that work for me. On a free book I put "free book, free fiction, free romance, etc., I haven't tried using Kindle unlimited as a keyword, but why not? You'll laugh at what a small fry I am, but here are my stats for this month so far.

$73.37 TOTAL spend

Sales
$80.77 TOTAL

Orders
33 TOTAL does not include free books

Clicks
280 TOTAL

[She-la-te-da]

For the SFF writers on here - you could put together a proper (kosher) online magazine that was free to anyone. Put it on a website and promote the crap out of it far and wide (not subscribers). Use the links to sell advertising [again] to pay for promotion in real-world magazines. It's something that would have a longterm effect, always there increasing SEO opportunities that would drive more traffic to you online. Continually paid for out of mutual budgets or paid ads. You have to see the market from a different perspective and be imaginative, then you can get ahead of the game. It's wide open.

But then you're into magazine publishing, and trying to get good stories so people would download and ad people would buy ad space. I'm not sure this would ultimately help authors, but you might become a big shot in the SFF magazine world.

I'll admit I don't get advertising. (I mean, I get it, the very basics, but the details are like eyes glazed, nobody's home.) I don't have any money right now to play around with anything, so I'm waiting until after February, when the SS comes in. Then I can spend the time learning/getting my feet wet. I'll be able to buy a couple of books or maybe take a basic course. I need to be writing so I have more stuff to release, though. I don't have a lot right now, outside of some niche stories I am not writing any more of -- and thus losing the tiny amount I made every month. But, that's life.

[Marti Talbott]

I've been spending on advertising, but it isn't helping much. I have one more Freebooksy ad coming out on the 24th on a book that isn't normally free. We'll see how that goes. What's odd is that my sales are good in the other wide bookstores and down on Amazon. Someone suggested an algorithm change, but I don't even know what that is.

[liveswithbirds]

However, my experience has been that no amount of clever advertising will turn a sow's ear into a silk purse. I have a series that is poison. Nothing sells it, and nothing is going to sell it because of prejudices about its content. Romance readers think it is too culturally elitist, and the culturally elite look down on it as romance. I've used various patented methods that may work for other kinds of books, but they do not work for mine. At bottom, I'm sometimes writing the wrong kinds of books, and I know it. I write the books I feel compelled to write--but that's a different thread.

...

The only exponential sales I've gotten through advertising were when I went from selling zero copies a month to more than zero. Otherwise, my ad results have been incremental in AMS and abysmal everywhere else.

Not to get too off-topic, but I'm right there with you on not quite writing to market. With me, it's not just about hitting the right genre -- romance, romantic comedy, women's fiction, chick lit, etc. It's also that my writing is not sophisticated enough for trad pub bestseller women's fic but maybe too sophisticated for genre readers. Even the editor who worked on my new release raved about it but advised me to write down more to the average reader's level. Sigh.

But I am a flexible person, and although I too feel compelled to write the stories I want to write, I also want to be read and loved and purchased by readers, and I don't see myself as ever being sophisticated enough for the trads. So I'm learning to simplify my prose  and hopefully find that sweet spot where what I want to write and what people want to read overlaps.

And yep, all the advertising in the world won't sell a product that buyers don't want. I, too, have had success advertising on Amazon with one standalone. I tried going wide with it and got crickets, even on Amazon, even with my winning ad. Back in Select, the ad started working again for both borrows and reads. Go figure.

[notthatamanda]

Yesterday was the fourth negative day in a row for me, royalties versus ams spend.   It's been a week since I fired up new campaigns after turning everything off for my intl bookbub on that book, finally starting to spend, one book sold so far. 

[LilyBLily]

My Amazon ad cost so far this month is 50% of my sales income to come. However, that doesn't include KU income, which beats the cost of ads down to 45%. It also doesn't account for UK sales conversions, which Amazon never shows on the dashboard in USD.

I'm happy that some people are reading my books. I haven't released a new book all year, so of course my figures aren't great. Shortly, I'll release two in a row. That should make a difference.

[notthatamanda]

Are you advertising in the UK now?  They still haven't let me into that. 

[CoraBuhlert]

For the SFF writers on here - you could put together a proper (kosher) online magazine that was free to anyone. Put it on a website and promote the crap out of it far and wide (not subscribers). Use the links to sell advertising [again] to pay for promotion in real-world magazines. It's something that would have a longterm effect, always there increasing SEO opportunities that would drive more traffic to you online. Continually paid for out of mutual budgets or paid ads. You have to see the market from a different perspective and be imaginative, then you can get ahead of the game. It's wide open.

Magazines require people and dedication. I run two indie-focussed promo sites, the Speculative Fiction Showcase (for science fiction, fantasy and horror) and the Indie Crime Scene (for mysteries, crime fiction and thrillers). We have spotlights for newly released indie and small press books and also have interviews, a weekly round-up of links of genre interest, a monthly round-up of newly released books, very occasional convention reports and the occasional guest post. I'd like to do more with both sites - add reviews, more essays/articles, maybe even original short fiction - but we're only two people with lives and writing careers of our own and there is only so much two people can do.

Also, a lot of indies have no problem blowing hundreds on BookBub, AMS, Facebook ads, etc... but balk at writing a guest post for a site that's free.

There also were quite a few promo sites, Bookbub alternatives, etc... run by indie authors. Most of them didn't last long, because they couldn't get attention.

[Marti Talbott]

For the SFF writers on here - you could put together a proper (kosher) online magazine that was free to anyone. Put it on a website and promote the crap out of it far and wide (not subscribers). Use the links to sell advertising [again] to pay for promotion in real-world magazines. It's something that would have a longterm effect, always there increasing SEO opportunities that would drive more traffic to you online. Continually paid for out of mutual budgets or paid ads. You have to see the market from a different perspective and be imaginative, then you can get ahead of the game. It's wide open.

Magazines require people and dedication. I run two indie-focussed promo sites, the Speculative Fiction Showcase (for science fiction, fantasy and horror) and the Indie Crime Scene (for mysteries, crime fiction and thrillers). We have spotlights for newly released indie and small press books and also have interviews, a weekly round-up of links of genre interest, a monthly round-up of newly released books, very occasional convention reports and the occasional guest post. I'd like to do more with both sites - add reviews, more essays/articles, maybe even original short fiction - but we're only two people with lives and writing careers of our own and there is only so much two people can do.

Also, a lot of indies have no problem blowing hundreds on BookBub, AMS, Facebook ads, etc... but balk at writing a guest post for a site that's free.

There also were quite a few promo sites, Bookbub alternatives, etc... run by indie authors. Most of them didn't last long, because they couldn't get attention.

Cora, to be honest, after I left Kboards, I didn't keep up with your site. I have a couple of articles I can submit if you want. Could you please post a link to your sites?

[DougM]

I'm taking another stab at AMS ads. The results so far have been sub-lackluster.

[notthatamanda]

I do think it takes time for momentum to build with AMS, but it is not a fun wait.  Good luck however you decide to handle it.

[notthatamanda]

For the SFF writers on here - you could put together a proper (kosher) online magazine that was free to anyone. Put it on a website and promote the crap out of it far and wide (not subscribers). Use the links to sell advertising [again] to pay for promotion in real-world magazines. It's something that would have a longterm effect, always there increasing SEO opportunities that would drive more traffic to you online. Continually paid for out of mutual budgets or paid ads. You have to see the market from a different perspective and be imaginative, then you can get ahead of the game. It's wide open.

Magazines require people and dedication. I run two indie-focussed promo sites, the Speculative Fiction Showcase (for science fiction, fantasy and horror) and the Indie Crime Scene (for mysteries, crime fiction and thrillers). We have spotlights for newly released indie and small press books and also have interviews, a weekly round-up of links of genre interest, a monthly round-up of newly released books, very occasional convention reports and the occasional guest post. I'd like to do more with both sites - add reviews, more essays/articles, maybe even original short fiction - but we're only two people with lives and writing careers of our own and there is only so much two people can do.

Also, a lot of indies have no problem blowing hundreds on BookBub, AMS, Facebook ads, etc... but balk at writing a guest post for a site that's free.

There also were quite a few promo sites, Bookbub alternatives, etc... run by indie authors. Most of them didn't last long, because they couldn't get attention.

Cora, to be honest, after I left Kboards, I didn't keep up with your site. I have a couple of articles I can submit if you want. Could you please post a link to your sites?

Cora, my WIP is a psychological thriller.  I'll look at your site too, once you post the link and see if I have any ideas for articles.

[Maggie Ann]

I'm taking another stab at AMS ads. The results so far have been sub-lackluster.

I started a new ad on 11/1. So far, one click (45c spend), no sales, no page reads. To be honest, I didn't put a lot of effort into the ad. I should finish the WiP this week and then I'll have some time to see what I can do to upgrade it.

[Bill Hiatt]

For the SFF writers on here - you could put together a proper (kosher) online magazine that was free to anyone. Put it on a website and promote the crap out of it far and wide (not subscribers). Use the links to sell advertising [again] to pay for promotion in real-world magazines. It's something that would have a longterm effect, always there increasing SEO opportunities that would drive more traffic to you online. Continually paid for out of mutual budgets or paid ads. You have to see the market from a different perspective and be imaginative, then you can get ahead of the game. It's wide open.

Magazines require people and dedication. I run two indie-focussed promo sites, the Speculative Fiction Showcase (for science fiction, fantasy and horror) and the Indie Crime Scene (for mysteries, crime fiction and thrillers). We have spotlights for newly released indie and small press books and also have interviews, a weekly round-up of links of genre interest, a monthly round-up of newly released books, very occasional convention reports and the occasional guest post. I'd like to do more with both sites - add reviews, more essays/articles, maybe even original short fiction - but we're only two people with lives and writing careers of our own and there is only so much two people can do.

Also, a lot of indies have no problem blowing hundreds on BookBub, AMS, Facebook ads, etc... but balk at writing a guest post for a site that's free.

There also were quite a few promo sites, Bookbub alternatives, etc... run by indie authors. Most of them didn't last long, because they couldn't get attention.

From what I've seen other people go through, I think that a lot of good promotional opportunities require someone with huge amounts of time and dedication to organize them. I've seen some interesting ones come and go for that very reason. To succeed, Cobbah's idea to which you responded would require the support and work of a lot of people, not just one or two organizers.

I think one reason indies are wary of guest posts is that some of us have tried that approach and seen little to no impact. But it's apparent that most of us haven't tried your specific sites, and we probably should. I recall that they've been in operation for some time and probably have a following.

[Marti Talbott]

We should probably start a thread and help each other write AMS ads. I know I need to change mine and I'd sure like to learn what actually works.

[TimothyEllis]

We should probably start a thread and help each other write AMS ads. I know I need to change mine and I'd sure like to learn what actually works.

We all do.

But those who know, won't share.

Or those for whom it works, use something most of us can't duplicate.

But start the thread anyway, one never knows.

[LilyBLily]

For the SFF writers on here - you could put together a proper (kosher) online magazine that was free to anyone. Put it on a website and promote the crap out of it far and wide (not subscribers). Use the links to sell advertising [again] to pay for promotion in real-world magazines. It's something that would have a longterm effect, always there increasing SEO opportunities that would drive more traffic to you online. Continually paid for out of mutual budgets or paid ads. You have to see the market from a different perspective and be imaginative, then you can get ahead of the game. It's wide open.

Magazines require people and dedication. I run two indie-focussed promo sites, the Speculative Fiction Showcase (for science fiction, fantasy and horror) and the Indie Crime Scene (for mysteries, crime fiction and thrillers). We have spotlights for newly released indie and small press books and also have interviews, a weekly round-up of links of genre interest, a monthly round-up of newly released books, very occasional convention reports and the occasional guest post. I'd like to do more with both sites - add reviews, more essays/articles, maybe even original short fiction - but we're only two people with lives and writing careers of our own and there is only so much two people can do.

Also, a lot of indies have no problem blowing hundreds on BookBub, AMS, Facebook ads, etc... but balk at writing a guest post for a site that's free.

There also were quite a few promo sites, Bookbub alternatives, etc... run by indie authors. Most of them didn't last long, because they couldn't get attention.

Yes, there's a lot of work involved. Unfortunately, I do not write in your genres. The other side of the coin is that I've written guest blog posts repeatedly but it's as if they went into a black hole. Stupidly, I recently signed up to do another, so we'll see how that goes.

[notthatamanda]

We all do.

But those who know, won't share.

Or those for whom it works, use something most of us can't duplicate.

But start the thread anyway, one never knows.

I can't fault them for that.  An effective strategy becomes less effective the more people start using it.

Having said that, I will ship homemade chocolate hazelnut kahlua cheesecake anywhere in the world it's legal if someone can clue me in on scaling up effectively.

That's three effective-s.  Maybe I just stink as a writer.

[TimothyEllis]

That's three effective-s.  Maybe I just stink as a writer.

I find using the same word 3 or 4 times like that is very effective. 

[RiverRun]

I'm posting a link to Cora's Indie Crime scene site. http://indiecrimescene.blogspot.com/ She featured my new mystery for free, and I think it helped me sell a couple of copies, since I've done no other promotion except posting on my Facebook author page (which is mostly friends and family who don't read much and people who liked my Christian romance books.) It was a great feature to receive for free.

Here's her spec. fic. website I think. http://indiespecfic.blogspot.com/

I think people who do this have to really love this kind of thing, because it is a lot of work and I would think the burn out rate would be high, especially if you were just in it for the money.