Author Topic: I feel like I'm not getting it...  (Read 51509 times)

Cobbah

Re: I feel like I'm not getting it...
« Reply #50 on: September 25, 2019, 02:12:32 PM »
I don't expect Amazon to be a charity.

Amazon is too large so most small authors lack the opportunity to gain visibility - it's almost impossible these days. Amazon makes it that way by using complex algorithms and other questionable website strategies. Then they offer you a more direct route to regain that visibility, but you have to pay them for the privilege. Everywhere else there's no cliff to fall off. Your books gain popularity over time and your income grows organically. In Amazon the reverse happens which means that's the way they plan it to be.

My point is only that AMS is a massive cash cow for Amazon and a treadmill for authors who participate. Sure, you can achieve big earnings, but only by giving Amazon a massively bigger slice of your royalties. I thought we were (collectively) against all that? I'm obviously wrong.
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I know what it's like to have negative views pounded into you every day when all you're trying to do is make ends meet or better yourself. It just happens that this time I'm that opposing view. I could be arguing for the sake of it, but I don't agree, so if you want me to stop, then say so and I'll go drive some other poor souls nuts.
 
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Re: I feel like I'm not getting it...
« Reply #51 on: September 25, 2019, 02:25:59 PM »
Sure, you can achieve big earnings, but only by giving Amazon a massively bigger slice of your royalties. I thought we were (collectively) against all that? I'm obviously wrong.

You're not wrong.

But AMS was a game changer, and since then, there has been the rise of those who use the ads to sell rather than older strategies.

So what's happening now is there are those who think profit, instead of royalty, and they've moved past the Amazon slice being an issue thing. It's no longer a matter of how much royalty is being made, but do they make a good profit at the end of the month?
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Shoe

Re: I feel like I'm not getting it...
« Reply #52 on: September 25, 2019, 02:41:11 PM »
Then they offer you a more direct route to regain that visibility, but you have to pay them for the privilege.

It must be a matter of perspective. Would you rather be scheduling and paying for an endless stream of paid newsletter promotions? They're not cheap either.


Quote
Everywhere else there's no cliff to fall off. Your books gain popularity over time and your income grows organically. In Amazon the reverse happens which means that's the way they plan it to be.

I haven't heard that before about other platforms.

As my shelf grows and my books gain a wider audience over time, I'm paying much less for AMS as a percent of sales, and income is becoming increasingly organic (I only advertise a few books. The others rank well with no advertising).

Quote
My point is only that AMS is a massive cash cow for Amazon and a treadmill for authors who participate. Sure, you can achieve big earnings, but only by giving Amazon a massively bigger slice of your royalties. I thought we were (collectively) against all that? I'm obviously wrong.

My point above is I'm paying progressively less for advertising as time goes on, and my net income continues to rise. Why? Because Amazon gave me a leg-up with their in-house advertising while I was building my brand. Now I don't need it so much. Hopefully, someone day I won't need it at all.

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Cobbah

Re: I feel like I'm not getting it...
« Reply #53 on: September 25, 2019, 05:05:44 PM »

It must be a matter of perspective. Would you rather be scheduling and paying for an endless stream of paid newsletter promotions? They're not cheap either.

I'm sure perspective is everything. A different perspective can only be gained by looking at things from that viewpoint. As to advertising. There are incentives for doing things differently. Take AMS, you spend $47,000 improving your sales in Amazon. It does nothing for you outside of their world. Imagine if you spent $47,000 selling your books or brand to the whole world where they could purchase your books from their favoured outlet. Would that provide you with greater visibility than just Amazon? would that give you a greater perspective?

Quote
Everywhere else there's no cliff to fall off. Your books gain popularity over time and your income grows organically. In Amazon the reverse happens which means that's the way they plan it to be.
Quote
I haven't heard that before about other platforms.

Really? It's been an established factor for many of us out there. It takes time, but I believe the rewards are more long-lived and visibility improves organically without effort. Then, when you do something like Bookbub, the sales jump dramatically and from that point on you retain much of that improvement in sales over the coming years.

Quote
As my shelf grows and my books gain a wider audience over time, I'm paying much less for AMS as a percent of sales, and income is becoming increasingly organic (I only advertise a few books. The others rank well with no advertising).

Absolutely. What we're talking about is visibility, but why restrict yourself to Amazon?

Quote

My point above is I'm paying progressively less for advertising as time goes on, and my net income continues to rise. Why? Because Amazon gave me a leg-up with their in-house advertising while I was building my brand. Now I don't need it so much. Hopefully, someone day I won't need it at all.

I don't disagree that it's all about visibility. My take on this is why pay $47,000 to Amazon to reveal you to their customers when you can spend the equivalent amount and be seen by the whole world.

I'm not trying to make an argument here, I think it's good to push your awareness out and test it in the real world. Amazon is your biggest market, but it isn't the only option. The VFM option would appear to be AMS on Amazon, but that much money spent around the world could have a much longer tail and turn you into a global brand as opposed to an Amazon one. Which one you choose is up to you.

At the end of the day it's purely a choice, but as you say, perspective is everything.
 

Hopscotch

Re: I feel like I'm not getting it...
« Reply #54 on: September 25, 2019, 05:25:03 PM »
Curious about one AMS "effect":  After much up and down with bids, have come to conclude that AMS ads = sales is a wrong(ish) conclusion but buying AMS ads = sales isn't.  Ie, is Amazon pay-to-play, no matter how little you pay?  Or am I wrong about that as about marketing methods in general?
 
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notthatamanda

Re: I feel like I'm not getting it...
« Reply #55 on: September 25, 2019, 08:25:59 PM »
I can't spend elsewhere to make the sales work.  I've tried.  I'm not a book a month publisher so putting the same books on the same newsletter promo sites over and over offers diminishing returns.  I've had one international bookbub and I've pretty much given up on ever getting another one.  Kobo is running a survey and I told them I have no idea how to market a new, full price book with them, what should I do?  Didn't hear back.

I was very happy with Kobo the first six months I was there (2nd half of 2017).  Then I absolutely fell off the cliff there.  My guess is more people went wide and there were a lot more books to choose from all of a sudden.  I can't even get a free page over there anymore and I never made any money on the more expensive promos when they did accept me, so I won't do those. The nice thing is the promos that take 10% of your sales, but I think the most I've ever sold through one of those is 5 books.

I have no ideas on how to promo on Apple or B&N.  DVD got a free promo from B&N once, which he said was as good as a bookbub.  Maybe someday I'll get one of those but I doubt it.
 

Cobbah

Re: I feel like I'm not getting it...
« Reply #56 on: September 25, 2019, 08:41:41 PM »
Then maybe what's needed is a plan to create a new means of getting the Indies out there in front of the populace.

How much would it cost to buy up a whole page in the NYT? A Sunday edition probably so you can get the browsers who like to read interested. You then need a reporter to interview someone or several someones prominent in the Indie field and offset the overall cost of the page with paid advertising from other indies, the combination of articles and ads, with links to a sales platform (not Amazon) that could harness all the online interest and you could have a winner. Get a manager that represents your group and share the cost. Change the dynamics of the book market by upping your overall game. This isn't directed at anyone, but if it sparks any ideas either on a State level or similar, then you have something to aim for. It's workable if collectively there are people here who have the right contacts and can work together. If you can risk your spend on AMS ads, then this is for you.
 

notthatamanda

Re: I feel like I'm not getting it...
« Reply #57 on: September 25, 2019, 08:44:46 PM »
That wouldn't be something I would participate in, can't see it panning out without a whole lot of luck, but I'm all for throwing as many ideas out there as we can.
 

Cobbah

Re: I feel like I'm not getting it...
« Reply #58 on: September 25, 2019, 08:57:14 PM »
That wouldn't be something I would participate in, can't see it panning out without a whole lot of luck, but I'm all for throwing as many ideas out there as we can.

You could apply the same technique to vertical media, like girl mags, romance or survivalist gigs. It's a matter of choosing your marketplace and then joining forces with others to split the cost and make an impact in a big way. If you want to make a breakthrough you have to be different and innovative and that's how you do it.
 

Cobbah

Re: I feel like I'm not getting it...
« Reply #59 on: September 25, 2019, 09:04:36 PM »
For the SFF writers on here - you could put together a proper (kosher) online magazine that was free to anyone. Put it on a website and promote the crap out of it far and wide (not subscribers). Use the links to sell advertising [again] to pay for promotion in real-world magazines. It's something that would have a longterm effect, always there increasing SEO opportunities that would drive more traffic to you online. Continually paid for out of mutual budgets or paid ads. You have to see the market from a different perspective and be imaginative, then you can get ahead of the game. It's wide open.
 
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dgcasey

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Re: I feel like I'm not getting it...
« Reply #60 on: September 25, 2019, 09:42:30 PM »
I can't spend elsewhere to make the sales work.  I've tried.  I'm not a book a month publisher so putting the same books on the same newsletter promo sites over and over offers diminishing returns.

I feel your pain, Amanda. I went wide for a year and a half and spent a few hundred dollars on ads at Bookbub, ENT and others and sold exactly six ebooks. Zero paperbacks.

Absolutely not worth it to me. I pulled all my ebooks out of wide back in June and around the end of July, put them all back into KU. The royalties were so small at D2D that I didn't even bother to ask for a check when I cleared my shelf at their site. If they end up sending me one some day down the road, I'll happily take it and head to Chick-fil-A for a #1 Deluxe. I should just about be able to afford it.

I'm not setting the world on fire just yet, but I am seeing an increase in sales and page reads and look forward to growing that over time.

Much as we might not like it, Amazon is the biggest sandbox in the world when it comes to publishing independently. If we want to play in that sandbox, we have to buy a ticket. Simple as that. Some here are pointing at someone spending $47K to sell $75K worth of books and wagging their finger at them. If it was me, I pay that happily and even look for ways to ramp it up.
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Cobbah

Re: I feel like I'm not getting it...
« Reply #61 on: September 25, 2019, 09:51:26 PM »

Some here are pointing at someone spending $47K to sell $75K worth of books and wagging their finger at them. If it was me, I pay that happily and even look for ways to ramp it up.

I'm not wagging fingers at people. I'm simply stating an alternative interpretation of the results. I wasn't aware that it was wrong to do so.
 

missingalaska

Re: I feel like I'm not getting it...
« Reply #62 on: September 25, 2019, 09:53:54 PM »
So Rosie, were you spending close to the $200 a day before you raised it?  I don't know how to phrase this.  I run a lot of smaller campaigns, and I generally do $10 each.  If I raise them to $100 are the algos looking at me going, damn, this girl is serious, let's place her ads more?  If I am budgeting $10 a day, it might only spend $2-5, but if I budget $50 a day it will find a way to spend $20?

I've had the same question. When I was advertising on AMS, I had a hard time getting Amazon to spend my budget.

My guess is that Amazon will only increase ad budgets and spends if they believe the book is going to sell to those they advertise it to -- which is algorithmically based.  So, if your book is already selling well, their ad algorithm responds by saying "Yes, give me more money and I'll spend it."  If your book has low potential (based upon prior sales, Authorrank, or whatever goes into the calculation), I'm guessing that it would take quite large individual bids to get the algorithms attention. This may be why the people I've seen who've had the most success with AMS tend to be newbies without a history or those who had books that sold reasonably well from the outset, even without ads.

OTOH, maybe I was too conservative with $10 and $20 budgets a day -- which the algorithm might disregard for whatever reason.  I've never been brave enough to start at a $100 budget a day...  For me, it's a little bit of the "chicken or egg" conundrum.  I don't have the sales to tickle the algorithm, but I can't get the sales to draw the attention of the algorithm without huge ad spends. I guess this boils down to how much you believe in your books. How much risk are you willing to accept?

Michael S. Nuckols
 

notthatamanda

Re: I feel like I'm not getting it...
« Reply #63 on: September 25, 2019, 10:08:41 PM »
Alaska - I took my two best campaigns from yesterday (I just started a bunch of new ones) and raised the budgets from 10 to 20.  One of them spent 9 on the first day, the other 3 (that was an older campaign) actually.  I'll see what happens.

DG - I make more on Amazon out of KU.  KU was obviously cannibalizing my sales so I'm not going back in.  Maybe it's a genre thing.  Off to check the Kobo site for the latest promos.
 

missingalaska

Re: I feel like I'm not getting it...
« Reply #64 on: September 25, 2019, 10:38:35 PM »

Some here are pointing at someone spending $47K to sell $75K worth of books and wagging their finger at them. If it was me, I pay that happily and even look for ways to ramp it up.

I'm not wagging fingers at people. I'm simply stating an alternative interpretation of the results. I wasn't aware that it was wrong to do so.

I think most of us would be happy with those returns!   :tup3b

That said, the current system of advertising for a fee replaces what Amazon used to do for free.  Previously, Amazon sold books based upon also-boughts and "You-Might-Like" browser ads/emails.  Today, those have been, for all practical purposes, replaced by a system that rewards those who buy ads.  If you don't buy ads, your also-boughts will suffer dramatically. Furthermore, the algorithm (likely) won't organically recommend a book (in emails or page ads) that is not already selling.

What this results in is a system where that 70% royalty really doesn't exist if you want Amazon to sell your books for you.  Can it be lucrative? Sure...  But it's also hard to get your foot in the door.

Michael S. Nuckols
 

Simon Haynes

Re: I feel like I'm not getting it...
« Reply #65 on: September 25, 2019, 10:58:54 PM »
If you went to any sane investor and told them they could put 45k in and get 75k back they'd rip your arms off to get at the deal.

 
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missingalaska

Re: I feel like I'm not getting it...
« Reply #66 on: September 25, 2019, 11:22:20 PM »
If you went to any sane investor and told them they could put 45k in and get 75k back they'd rip your arms off to get at the deal.

This assumes there is no risk.  The worst case scenario is that every bit of that advertising money could be entirely lost with no return on investment.  Naturally, the OP did their research and had a good product to sell. This isn't something that just anyone can pull off.

Michael S. Nuckols
 

Simon Haynes

Re: I feel like I'm not getting it...
« Reply #67 on: September 25, 2019, 11:35:07 PM »
True, but nobody goes to AMS and lays out 45k or so, only to sit around and see what happens. It's a build up from small beginnings, putting more in when earlier attempts and lower amounts seem to work.

 

LilyBLily

Re: I feel like I'm not getting it...
« Reply #68 on: September 26, 2019, 12:04:14 AM »
Sane investor? The kind of offer you suggest is a sucker bet in the world of investing. This is how the Bernie Madoffs of the world make their fortunes and how the crooks selling variable annuities clean up. In the immortal words of Ann Landers, "If it looks too good to be true, it probably is."

Our advantage with these ads is we don't have to be all in and risk 45k on one throw of the dice.
 

Dormouse

Re: I feel like I'm not getting it...
« Reply #69 on: September 26, 2019, 12:08:37 AM »
If you went to any sane investor and told them they could put 45k in and get 75k back they'd rip your arms off to get at the deal.
I think sane investors have a lot of experience of people telling them this. And observed that it doesn't usually work out the way that was said.
 
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Simon Haynes

Re: I feel like I'm not getting it...
« Reply #70 on: September 26, 2019, 12:32:21 AM »
Leave aside the matter of risk, which wasn't what I was getting at. I'm not talking about billionaires milking the system and ripping people off, either.

I'm talking about return on investment.

A few here seemed to be saying they'd never spend 45k to earn 75k, and I'm saying a property developer or an investor or anyone in any industry but indie publishing would gladly take that sort of return. Most small businesses operate on tiny margins, if they make money at all, and they'd take that sort of return too.

Now, that sort of spend doesn't fit my risk profile, which is fine. I get that others don't want to spend 45k either.

But putting money into advertising is just a cost of doing business in most other fields, and so if an indie publisher approaches their business like any other industry, I'd expect them to be spending a large amount of money on advertising, because that's how business works.


 
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notthatamanda

Re: I feel like I'm not getting it...
« Reply #71 on: September 26, 2019, 02:18:49 AM »
Leaving the stock market off the table, I can't really think of running a business where you can invest in what ever increments you want.  Small, even miniscule.  You can raise your campaign budget by a dollar, or ten.  In other businesses you want improvements, the costs are usually fixed and much higher.

I saw a big time internet company venture capitalist, whose name completely escapes me, sorry, say that he looks for companies that are making 20% profit.

I think AMS was Amazon's answer to when they figured out how much money bookbub and the other newletter sites were taking in.  And I don't see the difference to giving the money to AMS versus bookbub or another site.  Except AMS doesn't do any gate keeping on who is allowed to try.
 

Cobbah

Re: I feel like I'm not getting it...
« Reply #72 on: September 26, 2019, 02:55:18 AM »
I think this discussion has commuted into something quite interesting.

1) Most people are happy for Amazon to take 90% of royalties so long as their net result ends up higher than they would otherwise of gained on a level playing field.

2) Many authors are beginning to see themselves as business people. I just hope they have, or can learn, business practices as well and as quickly as they can write. Certainly before they run out of money.

3) People can see the benefits of Amazon, but cannot see, or don't believe those same benefits can be achieved in the wider marketplace.

4) Everything is perspective. Many here are [or appear to be] subject to success or failure within Amazon. Going wide isn't an option, or they've tried and failed with item 3. Reasons for failure? Unknown, but possibly lack of understanding of item 2, but probably more a case of item 3.

5) Everyone here hopes to emulate the success of some of the others on here.

Advertising is a very expensive game. If you get it right, you win. If you get it wrong, you're generally out of pocket. Like all speculation your investment can go down as well as up. All bets placed at your own risk and all that...

As a footnote to this I really admire the determination of many people to make AMS work for them. I love to hear the success stories. Just keep an eye on the end goal.

Cobbah
 
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Shoe

Re: I feel like I'm not getting it...
« Reply #73 on: September 26, 2019, 03:20:49 AM »
Martin Luther King: "Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity."
 

Simon Haynes

Re: I feel like I'm not getting it...
« Reply #74 on: September 26, 2019, 03:34:44 AM »
I think this discussion has commuted into something quite interesting.

1) Most people are happy for Amazon to take 90% of royalties so long as their net result ends up higher than they would otherwise of gained on a level playing field.


90% is a bit much. Most of the figures I've seen are closer to 50%

By the way, back in the mid-90's I worked for a fairly large home improvements company which spent about 40% of turnover on ads. The rest was wages and other incidental expenses. At least indies don't face those costs as well.


2) Many authors are beginning to see themselves as business people. I just hope they have, or can learn, business practices as well and as quickly as they can write. Certainly before they run out of money.


Like it or not, an indie author IS running a business. The good thing is, you can be a roadside flower stall selling blooms you picked from your own garden, or a nationwide retailer with thousands of stores... along with the far greater expenses that entails. There's a lot of freedom



3) People can see the benefits of Amazon, but cannot see, or don't believe those same benefits can be achieved in the wider marketplace.


I've been doing this for over 20 years. Since 2011, I've only had one three month period where half my work (6 books at the time) was exclusive to KU. The rest of that time I've been wide, because that's what I believe in.

I still remember when people treated Myspace like it was going to be around forever. Also the Soviet Union.



4) Everything is perspective. Many here are [or appear to be] subject to success or failure within Amazon. Going wide isn't an option, or they've tried and failed with item 3. Reasons for failure? Unknown, but possibly lack of understanding of item 2, but probably more a case of item 3.


Wide is hard, especially if you flip-flop between being in KU and not. Wide is also a better choice if you have visibility outside Amazon - a blog, website, a newsletter with thousands of readers... anything that can drive traffic. If you're unknown outside the Amazon ecosystem, then KU is probably a better choice.



5) Everyone here hopes to emulate the success of some of the others on here.



Doesn't apply to me. I have my own goals, my own to-do list, my own strategy. I love being a full-time author, but I'm not a big spender and I take pleasure in making what I do earn go a long way.

Have you ever played a computer game where you grind away, slowly making progress, until eventually you own everything and there's nothing left to do? For me, the grinding and slow steady progress is the fun part, not the own everything and bored part.




Advertising is a very expensive game. If you get it right, you win. If you get it wrong, you're generally out of pocket. Like all speculation your investment can go down as well as up. All bets placed at your own risk and all that...

As a footnote to this I really admire the determination of many people to make AMS work for them. I love to hear the success stories. Just keep an eye on the end goal.

Cobbah


I strongly disagree about advertising being expensive.  I'm not just being argumentative, I genuinely think that's the wrong way to look at it.

When I get a Bookbub it costs me around US$700. To many, that's hugely 'expensive'. But it isn't, it's like having a machine that returns $2 every time you insert $1. How much money would you shove into that machine?

I've had three bookbubs in the past 12 months, and each time I've netted approximately US$2000-$3000 in total over the subsequent weeks, above and beyond my long-term average royalties. In other words, directly attributable to the immediate sales boost AND the long-term increase in visibility. I'd spend $700 on a bookbub every day if I could, and others are spending money on AMS ads because they know they can achieve similar results.

They're not gambling or risking money, they're paying for a service (AMS) which gives them a measurable result. If their ads stop working they know immediately, not after they've spent, say, $45000.


 
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TimothyEllis

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Re: I feel like I'm not getting it...
« Reply #75 on: September 26, 2019, 03:35:59 AM »
1) Most people are happy for Amazon to take 90% of royalties so long as their net result ends up higher than they would otherwise of gained on a level playing field.

Most?  :icon_think:

No. Some. The rest of us think 30% is either reasonable or too much.
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Simon Haynes

Re: I feel like I'm not getting it...
« Reply #76 on: September 26, 2019, 03:37:23 AM »
PS

"Half the money I spend on advertising is wasted; the trouble is I don't know which half." John Wanamaker (1838-1922)

 
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notthatamanda

Re: I feel like I'm not getting it...
« Reply #77 on: September 26, 2019, 04:22:37 AM »
I looked at my net versus growth (edit- gross, sorry) for each month, my profit became my ad allowance for the next month.  I check my royalties versus ad spend every day to make sure I'm profitable.  I have some days when I am not, but I stay on top of it, make sure I'm always in the black for the year.  This is how I always ran this.  My first cover was off the KDP cover generator, then I saved what little I made until I could hire a cover artist.  I won't take money out of the family budget to spend on this venture.
That is what I would advise anyone to do, if they asked.  You can't put money into AMS and expect it to spit more back out at you, so know what you can afford and don't go over that limit hoping it will pay out.

« Last Edit: September 26, 2019, 04:29:07 AM by notthatamanda »
 

Joe Vasicek

Re: I feel like I'm not getting it...
« Reply #78 on: September 26, 2019, 04:24:02 AM »
Sure, you can achieve big earnings, but only by giving Amazon a massively bigger slice of your royalties. I thought we were (collectively) against all that? I'm obviously wrong.

There was a brief period from approximately 2008 to 2014 when the indie author community had great camaraderie and everyone (for the most part) was supportive of each other. This overlapped with the "gold rush" era of self-publishing, from 2010 when authors like Amanda Hocking and Hugh Howie proved that self-publishing was both viable and potentially lucrative, through the Author Earnings reports, which ended in early 2018. But the gold rush era probably ended sometime in 2016, as the indie author community was already fracturing by then.

The big thing that killed all the camaraderie in the indie author community was Kindle Unlimited. The community split into pro-KU and anti-KU camps, with some (like Mark Coker of Smashwords) warning that it would pit author against author and take the "indie" out of indie publishing. These arguments quickly became ideological, and the proponents of other side became ideologues who would use any data they could find to discredit their ideological opponents.

In the early days, it was relatively common for indie authors to open up and share sales data with the rest of the community. In part, this was a way to encourage people by showing that yes, self-publishing was viable—the "kiss of death" era of self-publishing was over. But with the increasing ideological splits over questions of exclusivity and independence, people started using their opponents' ranking and sales data as a way to discredit them. If someone suggested an idea or put forward an argument that challenged the established wisdom of either camp, calls would invariably come forward for that person to "prove themselves" by sharing sales data.

As a consequence of this, many long-time pillars of the indie author community either went silent or started posting anonymously. Newer authors who broke in after this period saw no reason to become embroiled in these arguments, and were much more quiet about their success. This was revealed when the Author Earnings Report became Bookstat, and (rather foolishly) posted a list of the top 100 indie authors, calculated using aggregated data.

KBoards, which originally served as the beating heart of the indie author community, became increasingly infected with groupthink. Other rival communities branched off, like 20 books to 50k and (yes) Writer's Sanctum. Nowadays, most of the indie author community is spread out across various private and public Facebook groups, with all of the baggage and other problems that come along with that platform. The major indie blogs like Passive Voice no longer get the kind of traffic that they used to, as everyone now is either caught up in their own echo chamber, or quietly plugging along with very little interaction with the community at large.

In some ways, the indie author community was a victim of its own success. Self-publishing is a proven business model now, whereas in 2008 it was still considered by the mainstream to be the "kiss of death." In other ways, the era of camaraderie began with the rise of KBoards and ended when that community fell apart. But you make a good point, Cobbah, about how Amazon is pitting us all against each other. That started in 2014 with Kindle Unlimited, and has escalated significantly with Amazon's advertising platform.
 
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Cobbah

Re: I feel like I'm not getting it...
« Reply #79 on: September 26, 2019, 05:06:01 AM »

Cobbah

Bixso?

You're just being insulting now.  :roll:


I've had three bookbubs in the past 12 months, and each time I've netted approximately US$2000-$3000 in total over the subsequent weeks, above and beyond my long-term average royalties. In other words, directly attributable to the immediate sales boost AND the long-term increase in visibility. I'd spend $700 on a bookbub every day if I could, and others are spending money on AMS ads because they know they can achieve similar results.

They're not gambling or risking money, they're paying for a service (AMS) which gives them a measurable result. If their ads stop working they know immediately, not after they've spent, say, $45000.


My last Bookbub netted me just under $15,000. I'm not stranger to advertising and I consider that my $700 investment to be well spent.



Most?  :icon_think:

No. Some. The rest of us think 30% is either reasonable or too much.

I was calculating approx 60% cost of AMS, plus the 30% Amazon take off you in royalties on top of that.
 

Cobbah

Re: I feel like I'm not getting it...
« Reply #80 on: September 26, 2019, 05:08:53 AM »
PS

"Half the money I spend on advertising is wasted; the trouble is I don't know which half." John Wanamaker (1838-1922)

It's an imperfect world. Sometimes it doesn't matter which half, advertising can end up wasting both.
 

123mlh

Re: I feel like I'm not getting it...
« Reply #81 on: September 26, 2019, 05:15:16 AM »
I think a lot of what Joe says above is an excellent summary, but the authors vs. authors issue isn't Amazon's fault IMO. It's the result of a maturing market where there's finally enough supply to meet demand and then too much supply for the available demand. In a sense the "look how much you can make" early attitude directly led to the "hey, wait a second where did my sales go, maybe not everyone really is my friend after all" issue.
 
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Cobbah

Re: I feel like I'm not getting it...
« Reply #82 on: September 26, 2019, 05:25:27 AM »
the authors vs. authors issue isn't Amazon's fault

Yes, it is, but only because they look at authors as a resource for pulling in cash. They never liked it when their hand was forced into conceding 70% of the income to authors. KU was their way of altering the playing field. AMS tilted it even further. You won't see it coming, but there will come a time when you're trapped in the Amazon grinder with too much commitment to make it pay, but also too much commitment to walk away.

You see this every day in the KU market. Every month everyone is hanging onto the fraction of a cent that they're going to make on their page reads. That dog-eat-dog mentality that erupts as soon as someone discovers that some new means of gaming that same tiny fraction of a cent is being ramped. If you want to be a successful business it's not through being beholden to Amazon.

It isn't just amazon's fault. It's our fault too.
 
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123mlh

Re: I feel like I'm not getting it...
« Reply #83 on: September 26, 2019, 05:36:35 AM »
I'm mostly wide. Just so you know.

And if Amazon had never existed the market still would have matured and authors still would have found themselves competing for ad space and readers. Where there's profit to be made people will keep entering that market until things reach equilibrium.
 
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Shoe

Re: I feel like I'm not getting it...
« Reply #84 on: September 26, 2019, 06:15:14 AM »
Every month everyone is hanging onto the fraction of a cent that they're going to make on their page reads.

Of whom do you speak when you say "everyone"? I don't remember casting a vote. Anyway, aren't subscription models the wave of the future, KU included? I think there's another platform giving it a go. I can't remember which.

There are far too many authors who view Amazon as a resource for pulling in cash and not the other way around. Hence, the crap that's out there, and the gaming and scheming. But I doubt the authors making a living through Amazon feel abused, which isn't to say they don't often feel annoyed by glitches or lack of transparency in certain areas (like AMS).
Martin Luther King: "Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity."
 
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Joe Vasicek

Re: I feel like I'm not getting it...
« Reply #85 on: September 26, 2019, 07:07:05 AM »
Shoe,

There's a reason why the KENPC monthly payout rates thread (which you started, BTW) is sticky at the top of the "What are Amazon doing now?" forum—and why the ratio of views to replies is higher than almost any other thread.
 
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Shoe

Re: I feel like I'm not getting it...
« Reply #86 on: September 26, 2019, 07:15:58 AM »
Shoe,

There's a reason why the KENPC monthly payout rates thread (which you started, BTW) is sticky at the top of the "What are Amazon doing now?" forum—and why the ratio of views to replies is higher than almost any other thread.

I'm not following. The number is just datum I plug into my spreadsheets.
Martin Luther King: "Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity."
 

TimothyEllis

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Re: I feel like I'm not getting it...
« Reply #87 on: September 26, 2019, 11:33:36 AM »
I was calculating approx 60% cost of AMS, plus the 30% Amazon take off you in royalties on top of that.

For those using AMS, and accepting that ratio.

But a huge proportion of AMS users restrict it to $10 a day or something small, so this wont apply to them, and it wont apply to everyone not using AMS at all.

Genres: Space Opera/Fantasy/Cyberpunk, with elements of LitRPG and GameLit, with a touch of the Supernatural. Also Spiritual and Games.



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MCMLXXV

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Re: I feel like I'm not getting it...
« Reply #88 on: September 26, 2019, 07:30:43 PM »
Maybe a podcast dedicated to reviewing only indie books could be a way of increasing visibility for indie authors by introducing readers who might normally avoid indie fiction? Perhaps same idea for YouTube (Booktube)?

There are many indie-focused podcasts that feature author-centric content like author interviews or indie publishing news or are craft focused, but are there many book review podcasts which exclusively review indie titles, at least ones with a significant audience?

There are quite a few book review podcasts out there that have very large audiences, and boost the platforms of the authors whose books they talk about. But, I'd wager almost 100% of the books every one of those popular podcasts review are traditionally published.

Imagine the visibility boost for indies if you could build a similarly sized audience for a podcast that only reviews self-published books. It'd be a boon to the community.

The first rule though, in the interest of attracting listeners in significant numbers, would be to NOT mention it's only going to be reviewing indie titles. I wouldn't mention that as a podcast feature at all, even if that's the basic ethos behind it.

The reason I say you wouldn't use that indie-only mantra as a selling point to would-be listeners is because at the outset I don't think it would be an attractive proposition when it comes to mainstream readers looking for book review podcasts to consume. I don't mean that as a slight to indie authors, not at all given that I am one, but I could see advertising a podcast as only reviewing indie books as being attractive to only a small, niche audience because a stigma still exists in the minds of a lot of readers.

You'd want to appeal to the broader market I think in trying to really gain a large audience, and it could put off potential listeners looking for similar fare to the big book review podcasts like Slate, BBC, Wired, Book Riot, Bookworm, Overdue, Sword & Laser, etc etc. But, you definitely would want to draw those same people in.

The great thing is, if it worked, a totally indie focused book review podcast could be a great way to break some preconceived notions some of these normally trad-focused readers may have about self-published fare, in time without them even realizing it's what you're doing because you're not explicitly stating that's what you're doing.

So, hypothetically, you could draw people in and start by reviewing top selling self-published books that appear at the tops of subgenres in the Kindle Store so mainstream readers would have familiarity with seeing them on the lists and potentially they would listen.

Then maybe, eventually your listeners will catch on that each week it's never a trad pub book being reviewed. By then however, even if a listener is a bit put off to never see a trad pub book being reviewed on the show, the readers who are listening to you and enjoy your podcast in significant numbers likely won't care all that much. And, if you've pulled that off, you've then succeeded in shining a light on books a lot of those readers never would have considered before. Or, that'd be the idea, anyway.

On the author side, if it became a viable show with a sizable audience, a lot of indies would likely want their books featured by that point because of the significant boost in visibility.

Anyway, just spit-balling here. Maybe it's a mountain too high to climb, who knows?

Perhaps there already are really popular podcasts doing this (reviewing exclusively indie fiction), and I just haven't found them?
 
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notthatamanda

Re: I feel like I'm not getting it...
« Reply #89 on: September 26, 2019, 08:48:16 PM »
The dang "you have to update your payment method" is back and it is not working.  Tried changing it to the Visa so I could change it back to the Amex, it wouldn't take either and locked up completely.  Maybe they'll shut me off completely and I'll sell the same, or more.  Who knows?
 

TimothyEllis

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Re: I feel like I'm not getting it...
« Reply #90 on: September 27, 2019, 12:17:02 AM »
The dang "you have to update your payment method" is back and it is not working.  Tried changing it to the Visa so I could change it back to the Amex, it wouldn't take either and locked up completely.  Maybe they'll shut me off completely and I'll sell the same, or more.  Who knows?

Email again.
Genres: Space Opera/Fantasy/Cyberpunk, with elements of LitRPG and GameLit, with a touch of the Supernatural. Also Spiritual and Games.



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Anarchist

Re: I feel like I'm not getting it...
« Reply #91 on: September 27, 2019, 02:37:47 AM »
The dang "you have to update your payment method" is back and it is not working.  Tried changing it to the Visa so I could change it back to the Amex, it wouldn't take either and locked up completely.  Maybe they'll shut me off completely and I'll sell the same, or more.  Who knows?

I'm dealing with this issue, too.

I recommend you call Amazon through Author Central and get transferred to a KDP rep. Explain the issue, and ask the rep to have the technical group that works with the Ads platform look at it. (KDP reps are not experts on the Ads platform.)

Also, mention that you've noticed other KDP authors reporting the issue. That may help to expedite the matter.

In my case, the issue is not with my bank. I confirmed with them this morning that my account is set to approve all communications from Amazon regardless of dollar amount. I dealt with this issue a couple of years ago, and at that time it was due to my bank.

"The first lesson of economics is scarcity: there is never enough of anything to fully satisfy all those who want it. The first lesson of politics is to disregard the first lesson of economics." - Thomas Sowell

"The State is an institution run by gangs of murderers, plunderers and thieves, surrounded by willing executioners, propagandists, sycophants, crooks, liars, clowns, charlatans, dupes and useful idiots -- an institution that dirties and taints everything it touches." - Hans Hoppe

"Virtue is more to be feared than vice, because its excesses are not subject to the regulation of conscience." - Adam Smith

Nothing that requires the labor of others is a basic human right.

I keep a stiff upper lip and shoot from the hip. - AC/DC
 

TimothyEllis

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Re: I feel like I'm not getting it...
« Reply #92 on: September 27, 2019, 02:52:12 AM »
The dang "you have to update your payment method" is back and it is not working.  Tried changing it to the Visa so I could change it back to the Amex, it wouldn't take either and locked up completely.  Maybe they'll shut me off completely and I'll sell the same, or more.  Who knows?
In my case, the issue is not with my bank. I confirmed with them this morning that my account is set to approve all communications from Amazon regardless of dollar amount. I dealt with this issue a couple of years ago, and at that time it was due to my bank.

This isn't another version of the India issue is it?

A while back they kept telling authors their bank details didn't work for India payments, and refused to listen to authors telling them everything else worked just fine. The message was much the same as this one. The problem was at the India end of KDP.

Just a thought.
Genres: Space Opera/Fantasy/Cyberpunk, with elements of LitRPG and GameLit, with a touch of the Supernatural. Also Spiritual and Games.



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notthatamanda

It
« Reply #93 on: September 27, 2019, 03:31:41 AM »
Thanks guys, I might have to put off contacting them until tomorrow.  My ads are still running and they are still counting my clicks.  Just can't do new ads for now.
 

Anarchist

Re: It
« Reply #94 on: September 27, 2019, 10:32:47 PM »
Thanks guys, I might have to put off contacting them until tomorrow.  My ads are still running and they are still counting my clicks.  Just can't do new ads for now.

FYI: This issue has been resolved for me.
"The first lesson of economics is scarcity: there is never enough of anything to fully satisfy all those who want it. The first lesson of politics is to disregard the first lesson of economics." - Thomas Sowell

"The State is an institution run by gangs of murderers, plunderers and thieves, surrounded by willing executioners, propagandists, sycophants, crooks, liars, clowns, charlatans, dupes and useful idiots -- an institution that dirties and taints everything it touches." - Hans Hoppe

"Virtue is more to be feared than vice, because its excesses are not subject to the regulation of conscience." - Adam Smith

Nothing that requires the labor of others is a basic human right.

I keep a stiff upper lip and shoot from the hip. - AC/DC
 

notthatamanda

Re: I feel like I'm not getting it...
« Reply #95 on: September 27, 2019, 10:38:05 PM »
The dang "you have to update your payment method" is back and it is not working.  Tried changing it to the Visa so I could change it back to the Amex, it wouldn't take either and locked up completely.  Maybe they'll shut me off completely and I'll sell the same, or more.  Who knows?

I'm dealing with this issue, too.

I recommend you call Amazon through Author Central and get transferred to a KDP rep. Explain the issue, and ask the rep to have the technical group that works with the Ads platform look at it. (KDP reps are not experts on the Ads platform.)

Also, mention that you've noticed other KDP authors reporting the issue. That may help to expedite the matter.

In my case, the issue is not with my bank. I confirmed with them this morning that my account is set to approve all communications from Amazon regardless of dollar amount. I dealt with this issue a couple of years ago, and at that time it was due to my bank.

Went to create a new ad, which reminded me of the problem, which I had completely forgotten about.  But the problem is fixed and my account is on the card I want.  Thank you Anarchist and whoever else went through the hassle of speaking to them about it.
 
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Marti Talbott

Re: I feel like I'm not getting it...
« Reply #96 on: September 28, 2019, 05:44:48 AM »
I can't spend elsewhere to make the sales work.  I've tried.  I'm not a book a month publisher so putting the same books on the same newsletter promo sites over and over offers diminishing returns.  I've had one international bookbub and I've pretty much given up on ever getting another one.  Kobo is running a survey and I told them I have no idea how to market a new, full price book with them, what should I do?  Didn't hear back.

I was very happy with Kobo the first six months I was there (2nd half of 2017).  Then I absolutely fell off the cliff there.  My guess is more people went wide and there were a lot more books to choose from all of a sudden.  I can't even get a free page over there anymore and I never made any money on the more expensive promos when they did accept me, so I won't do those. The nice thing is the promos that take 10% of your sales, but I think the most I've ever sold through one of those is 5 books.

I have no ideas on how to promo on Apple or B&N.  DVD got a free promo from B&N once, which he said was as good as a bookbub.  Maybe someday I'll get one of those but I doubt it.

I've never heard of anyone making money on Bookbub ads. The only way to promote to Apple or B&N that I know of is a site like Freebooksy that promotes to those sites. I don't buy ads on sites that only promote to Amazon. On your Kobo dashboard, at the top of the page, click on "promotions." They charge, but they take the money out of your sales instead of making you pay up front. I rarely get an ad through them - always rejected.

As for AMS, I've over promoted my free books, so right now it's my only option. However, I am only paying $.15 per click on free books, and no more than $.25 on paid. After years of this, I'm convinced the pay-more-make-more idea is a hoax. I can't match the big money spenders, so why try?

It's keywords that work for me. On a free book I put "free book, free fiction, free romance, etc., I haven't tried using Kindle unlimited as a keyword, but why not? You'll laugh at what a small fry I am, but here are my stats for this month so far.

$73.37 TOTAL spend

Sales
$80.77 TOTAL

Orders
33 TOTAL does not include free books

Clicks
280 TOTAL
Read The Swindler, a historical romance available at:
Amazon, Apple, Google Play, Kobo & Nook
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08QG5K23
 
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She-la-te-da

Re: I feel like I'm not getting it...
« Reply #97 on: November 05, 2019, 03:28:11 AM »
For the SFF writers on here - you could put together a proper (kosher) online magazine that was free to anyone. Put it on a website and promote the crap out of it far and wide (not subscribers). Use the links to sell advertising [again] to pay for promotion in real-world magazines. It's something that would have a longterm effect, always there increasing SEO opportunities that would drive more traffic to you online. Continually paid for out of mutual budgets or paid ads. You have to see the market from a different perspective and be imaginative, then you can get ahead of the game. It's wide open.

But then you're into magazine publishing, and trying to get good stories so people would download and ad people would buy ad space. I'm not sure this would ultimately help authors, but you might become a big shot in the SFF magazine world.

I'll admit I don't get advertising. (I mean, I get it, the very basics, but the details are like eyes glazed, nobody's home.) I don't have any money right now to play around with anything, so I'm waiting until after February, when the SS comes in. Then I can spend the time learning/getting my feet wet. I'll be able to buy a couple of books or maybe take a basic course. I need to be writing so I have more stuff to release, though. I don't have a lot right now, outside of some niche stories I am not writing any more of -- and thus losing the tiny amount I made every month. But, that's life.
I write various flavors of speculative fiction. This is my main pen name.

 

Marti Talbott

Re: I feel like I'm not getting it...
« Reply #98 on: November 05, 2019, 03:45:49 AM »
I've been spending on advertising, but it isn't helping much. I have one more Freebooksy ad coming out on the 24th on a book that isn't normally free. We'll see how that goes. What's odd is that my sales are good in the other wide bookstores and down on Amazon. Someone suggested an algorithm change, but I don't even know what that is.
Read The Swindler, a historical romance available at:
Amazon, Apple, Google Play, Kobo & Nook
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08QG5K23
 

liveswithbirds

Re: I feel like I'm not getting it...
« Reply #99 on: November 08, 2019, 03:59:13 PM »


However, my experience has been that no amount of clever advertising will turn a sow's ear into a silk purse. I have a series that is poison. Nothing sells it, and nothing is going to sell it because of prejudices about its content. Romance readers think it is too culturally elitist, and the culturally elite look down on it as romance. I've used various patented methods that may work for other kinds of books, but they do not work for mine. At bottom, I'm sometimes writing the wrong kinds of books, and I know it. I write the books I feel compelled to write--but that's a different thread.

...

The only exponential sales I've gotten through advertising were when I went from selling zero copies a month to more than zero. Otherwise, my ad results have been incremental in AMS and abysmal everywhere else.


Not to get too off-topic, but I'm right there with you on not quite writing to market. With me, it's not just about hitting the right genre -- romance, romantic comedy, women's fiction, chick lit, etc. It's also that my writing is not sophisticated enough for trad pub bestseller women's fic but maybe too sophisticated for genre readers. Even the editor who worked on my new release raved about it but advised me to write down more to the average reader's level. Sigh.

But I am a flexible person, and although I too feel compelled to write the stories I want to write, I also want to be read and loved and purchased by readers, and I don't see myself as ever being sophisticated enough for the trads. So I'm learning to simplify my prose  and hopefully find that sweet spot where what I want to write and what people want to read overlaps.

And yep, all the advertising in the world won't sell a product that buyers don't want. I, too, have had success advertising on Amazon with one standalone. I tried going wide with it and got crickets, even on Amazon, even with my winning ad. Back in Select, the ad started working again for both borrows and reads. Go figure.