What would you stock up on for an Apocalypse?

[Edward M. Grant]

Alligators can climb fences, at least the wire ones.

[veinglory]

Solar chargers, bleach (can be used to make water drinkable), and agricultural bulk anti-biotics and anti-helminthics.

[Eric Thomson]

All this talk about AR-15s and shotguns is nice, but when you run out of ammo and the factories aren't making any more, they become fancy cudgels.  Better something like a black powder muzzle loader, a few ingots of lead and a form to cast balls along with a ready source of sulfur, potassium nitrate and charcoal.  Better make it a flintlock, because percussion caps are going to be gone as well.
 

[Edward M. Grant]

From what I understand, black powder isn't easy to make, if you want consistent burns. Or, at least, good black powder is quite dangerous to make, if you don't have the years of experience our ancestors had in how to make it without blowing themselves up. I believe it requires things like grinding the powder down to a consistent size without detonating it.

Besides which, even the UK probably has a billion rounds of ammo kicking around (that's only a million shooters averaging a thousand rounds each). Knowing how much my US shooter acquaintances stock up on ammo when it's cheap, the US could have getting on for a trillion.

[Post-Doctorate D]

You don't need factories for ammo.  There are people here that reload shells and cast their own bullets.

[Edward M. Grant]

You need primers and powder, though. You could stock up on those, but it's probably safer to just stock up on the ammo rather than leave large quantities of dangerous explosives lying around the house (e.g. a single primer that goes off in a box will probably set them all off).

Or stock up on copper, capacitors and batteries, and build railguns.

[Post-Doctorate D]

I don't know how much or what supplies they keep on hand but maybe it's good I don't live near them.

[Eric Thomson]

You don't need factories for ammo.  There are people here that reload shells and cast their own bullets.

Can they manufacture their own primers or propellant - other than black powder that is?  No factories...

[Jeff Tanyard]

I posted these links a few years ago on kboards, so I'll post them here now.  They're accounts written by those who actually lived through apocalypses and jotted down what they experienced and learned.


Hurricane Katrina:

Listening to Katrina


The economic collapse in Argentina:

Surviving in Argentina

[Jeff Tanyard]

Just because it's the apocalypse doesn't mean you need to have dry, flaky elbows.

This is sig line material.   

Alligators can climb fences, at least the wire ones.

[Kay Inglis]

I guess the truly British armament for a post-apocalyptic world would be a Martini-Henry and a Webley WG. If it was good enough for the Zulu Wars, it's plenty good enough for the zombie apocalypse.

I keep thinking about buying a musket, but I suspect I'd accidentally overload it or something and blow myself up. I went to a place in the UK one time where we got to shoot all kinds of muskets and a blunderbuss and a black-powder mortar (loaded by people who knew what they were doing), and it was good, smoky fun.

Plus I'd ideally like an original Brown Bess, and I rarely see good ones for less than $3,000 here.

As a fan of The Musketeers, I can see that the old musket could be a nice thing to own, mostly for its historical interest. But I think I would put one over my fireplace, not attempt to use it.

If there are UK gun-holders after "Brexocalypse" I think I will hide until they have exhausted their ammunition on each other.

[Kay Inglis]

On the other hand, the dense population means most people wouldn't get far from the cities. Traffic jams would likely reduce most people to walking on the first day, because crashes and rioting would stop cars getting through.

Here, there are gravel roads starting a kilometre from my house that could take me hundreds of miles without hitting a major highway or needing to refuel. Assuming I got out before too many others started thinking about going the same way.

If I lived in London, I'd definitely stock up on canned food, fill the bath with water, and hide out until the worst was over. Or until the city caught fire when someone let their cooking fire spread, or a gas leak or electrical fault ignited something.

Or live near the Thames and have a fast boat tied up outside.

I guess the more intrepid would abandon and their cars and walk out to regions beyond the M25.

But the hiding until the worst is over is probably the best plan. I have a great shed on my allotment.

The boat on the Thames is a good idea. Or a boat anywhere that you could keep stocked up and go off-shore until things settled down.

Unfortunately I don't know anyone with a boat.

[Kay Inglis]

The Church of LDS sells survival packs. There's a 72 hr pack on up to a year's supply. Their philosophy is that when disaster strikes, you share with your neighbors.

I found this out when an author from NZ was talking about grabbing their 72 hr packs after a particularly damaging earthquake there a few year ago.

Good suggestion. I found it on Amazon.com, but unfortunately it doesn't ship to the UK

72 Hour Survival Kit

The best UK equivalent is this:

Emergency Survival Kit

[Kay Inglis]

I posted these links a few years ago on kboards, so I'll post them here now.  They're accounts written by those who actually lived through apocalypses and jotted down what they experienced and learned.


Hurricane Katrina:

Listening to Katrina


The economic collapse in Argentina:

Surviving in Argentina

Thanks for those. I will make time to read them.

[Kay Inglis]

That's a good idea about the 72 hr packs.
I am aiming to stockpile a few weeks' worth of food and cat food for the Brexocalypse.

I just looked and found some equivalents on Amazon.co.uk

There is the one I link to above, but This is less expensive - if you do have to head for the hills!

[Jeff Tanyard]

I posted these links a few years ago on kboards, so I'll post them here now.  They're accounts written by those who actually lived through apocalypses and jotted down what they experienced and learned.


Hurricane Katrina:

Listening to Katrina


The economic collapse in Argentina:

Surviving in Argentina

Thanks for those. I will make time to read them.

You're welcome.   

[Lysmata Debelius]

About the apocalypse: something to prepare for, mentally at least, are all the people who'll be saying "What? It's all just a hoax!" even as the mushroom clouds fill the sky.

I spent last year preparing for day zero, as they called it, when Cape Town's water would run out. Due to a bunch of farmers giving us their water allocation (bloody risky thing for them to do ) day zero was averted. Now people are calling it the "day zero hoax" and filling their swimming pools again, even as we are having record hot days for early spring and dam levels are starting to drop again.

Back to the question - more rainwater tanks. I CAN NEVER HAVE ENOUGH RAINWATER TANKS. 

:: goes to peek into rainwater tank to make sure there's still water in it ::

[cecilia_writer]

I just looked and found some equivalents on Amazon.co.uk

There is the one I link to above, but this is less expensive - if you do have to head for the hills!

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B00IMIG42K/ref=psdc_1939531031_t2_B00IMI3R4I

Thanks - this is all a revelation to me! I have never even considered it before. Brexit has a lot to answer for.

[Anarchist]

To weather an apocalypse, I'd hoard ammo for sure (as I mentioned earlier), along with rope and duct tape. And samurai swords if we're talking zombies. haha

But I'd work overtime with my neighbors to reinforce the community. Not just set up fences, walls, bunkers and guard towers, but to establish trade agreements with other neighborhoods and set up communication systems in anticipation of cell and internet service going away.

Lone wolves are unlikely to last long post-apoc.

[LilyBLily]

Interesting that so many of you think you'd be going somewhere. I live way out in the country and my issue would be people coming here. Ammo would be my first consideration. We already have the shotgun and a couple nearly harmless guns for shooting squirrels. I found a four-foot iron pipe in the woods just this week. Rust or not, it'll be good for some whacking. Guess I should keep it instead of recycling it.

Next what I'd want would be solar cells on my roof and an inverter (I think that's what it's called) so I could use all my electricity myself and be detached from the (likely nonworking) grid. Alas, I've never made the investment in solar. We'd have to start using our forest for firewood. We'd run out in a couple of years, maybe, but by then we'd have run out of ammo and we'd be dead, anyway. We're only 100 miles from a major city and even though someone will conveniently blow up the bridges and make it harder for people to get across, 100 miles just isn't that far. The people living west of us in the mountainous regions will probably be able to hold out against incursions and they're better at living off the land. I hear possums make very good eating, and there are wild turkeys, bears, and deer. Lots of deer.     

I find this all very silly, but on a morning when I'm not in the mood to buckle down and work, it's entertainment.

[Kay Inglis]

Back to the question - more rainwater tanks. I CAN NEVER HAVE ENOUGH RAINWATER TANKS. 

:: goes to peek into rainwater tank to make sure there's still water in it ::

Yes, water is always going to be at the top of the list of needs PA.

Here in the UK, where the stuff seems to drop endlessly out of the the sky, we tend to take water supplies for granted.

Except, of course, when we get the rare drought like we did this summer.

I don't think any of the threatened hose pipe bans happened, but it did focus the mind on how difficult it could be to get enough water if it did stop getting pumped around and no longer came out of taps.

So always worth keeping some bottled water and water purification tablets just in case.

I have a rainwater barrel, but use the water for plants. It would need a bit of treatment to make me fancy drinking it.

[Kay Inglis]

But I'd work overtime with my neighbors to reinforce the community. Not just set up fences, walls, bunkers and guard towers, but to establish trade agreements with other neighborhoods and set up communication systems in anticipation of cell and internet service going away.

Lone wolves are unlikely to last long post-apoc.

Once the first crisis (pandemic or whatever) was over then, yes, establishing communities to work together and co-operate with each other would be the way to go.

In some circumstances, the lone wolf might survive best in the short term - avoiding any infection or conflict.

But few of us would want to survive in total isolation.

It all depends too on how many survivors there are.

In some ways, the fewer there are the easier it might be, because there wouldn't be a battle over remaining stocks, and survivors might just be glad of anyone they could link up with.

Although human nature can be a funny thing, and perhaps the trauma of an apocalypse would make people suspicious and prone to "shoot first and ask questions later".

[Anarchist]

In some circumstances, the lone wolf might survive best in the short term - avoiding any infection or conflict.

My biggest fear would be intruders. If I'm out in the boonies, a group of two or three could end me and my family. Worse, if they're sadists, they could spend a lot of time doing it.

[Kay Inglis]

Interesting that so many of you think you'd be going somewhere. I live way out in the country and my issue would be people coming here.

It actually always annoys me in PA films when the hero/heroine spends their whole time moving from one place to another and encountering danger at every step.

Battening down the hatches, at least until some kind of new normality has been established, seems so much more sensible.

A bunker - or at least a secluded house such as you describe - would seem to be the best place to stay until needs or dangers forced you out.

Not sure whether I would stick or move. A lot would depend on the exact nature of a breakdown or apocalypse and how many survivors there were and how they were reacting.

[Kay Inglis]

In some circumstances, the lone wolf might survive best in the short term - avoiding any infection or conflict.

My biggest fear would be intruders. If I'm out in the boonies, a group of two or three could end me and my family. Worse, if they're sadists, they could spend a lot of time doing it.

Yes. The veneer of civilisation is very thin and even minor or temporary breakdowns demonstrate that other people are likely to be one of the biggest threats to our security.

We still have a few nice castles in the UK. Probably the best place to go PA and refortify in the medieval style - moat and all!

[cecilia_writer]

Coincidentally there is a nuclear bunker just up the road from us - it's hollowed out from a hill. It dates from the Cold War but a group have been restoring it recently. If only it's habitable in time...

[Edward M. Grant]

Coincidentally there is a nuclear bunker just up the road from us - it's hollowed out from a hill. It dates from the Cold War but a group have been restoring it recently. If only it's habitable in time...

I remember when I was very young seeing a house in the UK for sale with attached nuclear bunker. Not just something someone had knocked together in their spare time from some corrugated iron and breeze blocks, but an actual Cold War government bunker for which the house was originally just the 'camouflaged' guard house. I believe it was originally a radar station, but made obsolete by improvements in technology.

I'd have avoided it, though, just in case the Soviets still had it on their target list for WWIII.

[Edward M. Grant]

It actually always annoys me in PA films when the hero/heroine spends their whole time moving from one place to another and encountering danger at every step.

Yes. In a post-apocalyptic situation, strangers will be distrusted and possibly shot on sight. At least in the short term.

Sensible people would only move around if they had no other choice.

[Anarchist]

In some circumstances, the lone wolf might survive best in the short term - avoiding any infection or conflict.

My biggest fear would be intruders. If I'm out in the boonies, a group of two or three could end me and my family. Worse, if they're sadists, they could spend a lot of time doing it.

Yes. The veneer of civilisation is very thin and even minor or temporary breakdowns demonstrate that other people are likely to be one of the biggest threats to our security.

I agree. At the same time, I believe that banding together with others is one of the surest ways to survive and thrive in the event governments lose influence or go away entirely. Ideally, a community would have carpenters, farmers, engineers, medical personnel, etc. Or they'd have quick access to them from neighboring communities.

We'll always have murderers, rapists, and other malcontents to deal with. We have them now, of course. Post-apoc, the challenge would be how to deal with them. Methods would probably vary by community/zone/region. Some communities would imprison them. Others might put them to use (e.g. tending crops, building walls, etc.) for a defined period of time. Still others might simply execute them and mount their heads on posts outside the walls to warn others.

[LilyBLily]

In some circumstances, the lone wolf might survive best in the short term - avoiding any infection or conflict.

My biggest fear would be intruders. If I'm out in the boonies, a group of two or three could end me and my family. Worse, if they're sadists, they could spend a lot of time doing it.

Yes. The veneer of civilisation is very thin and even minor or temporary breakdowns demonstrate that other people are likely to be one of the biggest threats to our security.

I agree. At the same time, I believe that banding together with others is one of the surest ways to survive and thrive in the event governments lose influence or go away entirely. Ideally, a community would have carpenters, farmers, engineers, medical personnel, etc. Or they'd have quick access to them from neighboring communities.

We'll always have murderers, rapists, and other malcontents to deal with. We have them now, of course. Post-apoc, the challenge would be how to deal with them. Methods would probably vary by community/zone/region. Some communities would imprison them. Others might put them to use (e.g. tending crops, building walls, etc.) for a defined period of time. Still others might simply execute them and mount their heads on posts outside the walls to warn others.

I get the feeling you don't write cozy mystery or sweet romance. 

[Anarchist]

I agree. At the same time, I believe that banding together with others is one of the surest ways to survive and thrive in the event governments lose influence or go away entirely. Ideally, a community would have carpenters, farmers, engineers, medical personnel, etc. Or they'd have quick access to them from neighboring communities.

We'll always have murderers, rapists, and other malcontents to deal with. We have them now, of course. Post-apoc, the challenge would be how to deal with them. Methods would probably vary by community/zone/region. Some communities would imprison them. Others might put them to use (e.g. tending crops, building walls, etc.) for a defined period of time. Still others might simply execute them and mount their heads on posts outside the walls to warn others.

I get the feeling you don't write cozy mystery or sweet romance. 

Haha.

I actually write non-fiction.

As an anarchist, I constantly ponder life sans government, and mull over how various aspects of life - from crime and contracts to insurance and infrustructure - would evolve in its absence.

[Leo]

Trade goods was mentioned, in a real situation not everyone will have everything they need. The most common trade goods are food and matches / lighters. If you live in a cold climate heating is essential for survival. Extra food or vegetable seeds have extreme value, more so than other goods.

If the apocalypse wipes out the majority of the population and there is no sign of rescue, ever, then your ability to grow your own food is something you might consider.

Other basics I'd include are stores of dried foods, like rice, beans, chickpeas, lentils, salt and spices. With three quarters of the worlds population thriving on a 70% starch based diet learning to cook rice and throwing in a few veges is a good idea. If we rely on eating meat we will eventually run out of animals unless we become hunter gatherers. The hunter gatherer will always have to reduce their numbers when in a lean season - like drought, disease and a reduction in the local animal population. Hunting demands enormous physical resources and so it is easier to grow your food than catch it with a spear or bow and arrow when the bullets run out.

Now if it is short term, like a hurricane, then stock up on beer and chocolate and wait it out   

[Edward M. Grant]

Stock up on guns and ammo. Then everything else you need is readily available.

Only if the rest of the survivors are disarmed.

Those who set out for a life of violence in the post-apocalyptic world may see a short-term success, but they won't live long unless they're very good at it. As I said before, one peripheral hit by a bullet that could be dealt with in a few hours by a doctor today will likely kill you when there are no doctors around, and no readily-available antibiotics.

Prior to the 20th century, treatment for gunshot wounds tended to involve cutting off limbs and hoping you didn't die in the process; though death from shock or rapid blood loss was probably a better way to go than slow death by blood poisoning, gangrene or other infections.

[Captain Cranky]

Interesting that so many of you think you'd be going somewhere. I live way out in the country and my issue would be people coming here. Ammo would be my first consideration. We already have the shotgun and a couple nearly harmless guns for shooting squirrels. I found a four-foot iron pipe in the woods just this week. Rust or not, it'll be good for some whacking. Guess I should keep it instead of recycling it.

Next what I'd want would be solar cells on my roof and an inverter (I think that's what it's called) so I could use all my electricity myself and be detached from the (likely nonworking) grid. Alas, I've never made the investment in solar. We'd have to start using our forest for firewood. We'd run out in a couple of years, maybe, but by then we'd have run out of ammo and we'd be dead, anyway. We're only 100 miles from a major city and even though someone will conveniently blow up the bridges and make it harder for people to get across, 100 miles just isn't that far. The people living west of us in the mountainous regions will probably be able to hold out against incursions and they're better at living off the land. I hear possums make very good eating, and there are wild turkeys, bears, and deer. Lots of deer.     

I find this all very silly, but on a morning when I'm not in the mood to buckle down and work, it's entertainment.

This.

I'm in the country too, and people coming here would be a big concern for me as well. Like Anarchist said, being out in the sticks could mean a few men being able to take my home, but I'd rather take my chances than live in a highly populated area. We currently have rain tanks and a creek fed dam, and I grow some of my own veges and herbs. Chickens are next on the list too. My main issue is that I'm renting my house from family atm, and there's only so much I can do until I buy my own property. Whether there is some sort of apocalyptic event or not, I have an interest in self-sufficiency regardless, so I have plans for when I can build my own place.

Solar panels will be high on the list, as well as a backup such as wind turbine. We're in a valley and get high winds here. The biggest issue I see is not with generating energy, but with storing it. Batteries don't come cheap.

I really like the concept of the Earthship houses, and want to utilise some of those aspects, such as lots of north-facing windows (we're in the southern hemisphere), walls made from materials that create thermal mass, maybe building into a hillside to utilise the cooler temperatures in the earth for air conditioning, and sunroom areas to grow food indoors. If I needed extra heating I'd probably be thinking a masonry fireplace, there's plenty of bush around and I'd be seeking a property that can supply tons of firewood. I love the concept of reusing water in the earthship design, but our council won't allow it.

Guns would be an issue for me. I would definitely want one, but they aren't legal in Australia unless you have a license and a genuine need for one, like if you are a farmer. Having said that, some of my neighbours have them, so it may be easier than I think. I've thought about joining a gun club nearby and seeing what options I have to learn to shoot, but not sure.

My ideal situation in an apocalyptic event would be that I'm already set up to be pretty self-sufficient so there would be minimal disruption, and having the means to protect myself. I struggle with the idea of raising animals to slaughter or killing kangaroos, but if it became a matter of survival then I would do it. I have lots of ideas and little things I've been meaning to play with (I was going to build a solar heater and a sun oven this past winter and never quite got to it), and it all sounds great in theory, but I think the reality would be far harder. Nevertheless it's a topic I love, and I think it's doable.

[Kay Inglis]

We'll always have murderers, rapists, and other malcontents to deal with. We have them now, of course. Post-apoc, the challenge would be how to deal with them. Methods would probably vary by community/zone/region. Some communities would imprison them. Others might put them to use (e.g. tending crops, building walls, etc.) for a defined period of time. Still others might simply execute them and mount their heads on posts outside the walls to warn others.

I suspect that, at least to begin with, in a PA scenario "justice" will become peremptory, based in fear, and sometimes downright unjust.

After a bit of time we'd likely resort to a feudal-style system with a few powerful "Lords" with armed retainers and serfs who are protected, so long as they do the menial work.

Not so very different from the way things are now in the UK, come to think of it! After all, our systems and constitution have evolved from a feudal system.

I recall watching the original Survivors series (BBC 1975) and Greg (the good guy) summarily executes a man for murdering a woman, after a brief mock trial.

The aim is to save them and other embryonic communities from a danger, with no time for niceties, and no way to lock someone up.

Except, of course, they execute the wrong man and then have to let the real culprit get away with his actions because he is deemed useful to the community.

[Kay Inglis]

If the apocalypse wipes out the majority of the population and there is no sign of rescue, ever, then your ability to grow your own food is something you might consider.

Very good point. Keeping some seeds and seed potatoes in store annually is a good idea.

I do this anyway, as I grow a lot of my own veg, although I would hate to be entirely dependent on it. In my experience, each year brings its own crop failure, depending on the weather.

For example, the very dry summer this year meant that the potato crop - normally a staple - was very poor indeed. Not a problem when I can pop to the supermarket to supplement what I grow.

I'm already a flexitarian - I eat very little meat, and mostly a plant-based diet - so maybe I wouldn't find adapting to a PA diet too hard, although there are a whole host of "treats" I would miss if I was confined to a very basic homegrown diet.

I love Quorn products, and have no idea how these are produced. None of that PA, then. 

[Kay Inglis]

Whether there is some sort of apocalyptic event or not, I have an interest in self-sufficiency regardless, so I have plans for when I can build my own place.

I love the concept of reusing water in the earthship design, but our council won't allow it.

How interesting to hear people from different countries - and, indeed, continents - and how they would plan for an apocalypse.

I always fancy that people in Australia and New Zealand would be more likely to survive some worldwide apocalypse scenarios, from epidemics to nuclear war, simply by being at a distance geographically.

I recall reading somewhere that wealthy people were buying up land in New Zealand in particular for escape-the-apocalypse retreats.

Your projects sound like great ideas, hopefully without an apocalypse.

Of course, not owning where you live, and not having council consent to undertake certain projects, would cease to be issues if a real collapse happened, as the old order of ownership and control would almost certainly cease to apply.

[Edward M. Grant]

I recall watching the original Survivors series (BBC 1975) and Greg (the good guy) summarily executes a man for murdering a woman, after a brief mock trial.

Survivors was probably the 'best' kind of apocalypse, because most of the population died off within a few days, leaving little time for riots and mass violence or the destruction of essential infrastructure. I don't remember much beyond the first season of the show, but most things they'd need to restart society would still have been available and in decent shape, at least for the first few years. The only thing they really lacked was people, and they can be made fairly quickly.

I see Cabelas has an ammo sale on today, maybe I should be stocking up .

[cecilia_writer]

I remember being haunted for ages by that episode of Survivors, though I can see that it made sense in the context for 'justice' to be seen to be done quickly.

[PJ Post]

A near pathological lack of empathy.   

pew-pew

This thread reminds me of the joke...I don't have to outrun the bear, I just have to outrun you.

No, I don't watch Supernatural.

Duh fuque?



But they had a Scooby episode! 

[LilyBLily]

Getting some story ideas from this discussion, but not stories I really want to write.

[Edward M. Grant]

Getting some story ideas from this discussion, but not stories I really want to write.

Yeah, I keep thinking of writing one, but it all ends up being a bit depressing.

[Post-Doctorate D]

Getting some story ideas from this discussion, but not stories I really want to write.

Yeah, I keep thinking of writing one, but it all ends up being a bit depressing.

I threw in a unicorn that impales zombies on its horn.  Made everything better.

[dgcasey]

Just the standard "beans, bullets and bandages."

[Leo]

Another thought popped into my mind. Back 100 - 150 years ago the most common cause of death in the western world was infection due to poor hygiene and sanitation. Today it is heart disease caused by affluenza, too much good food.

That made me think, as long as we have sufficient food, starvation was another cause of death, we really need to be mindful of drinking water that isn't polluted by the bogans dumping their sewerage and rubbish upstream of us.

[LilyBLily]

Had to look up "bogans."

[Edward M. Grant]

That made me think, as long as we have sufficient food, starvation was another cause of death, we really need to be mindful of drinking water that isn't polluted by the bogans dumping their sewerage and rubbish upstream of us.

You can get portable filters that will filter out most of the junk in the water and kill the rest. They're hard work to use, though, because the filter pores are so minute.

[DrewMcGunn]

Getting some story ideas from this discussion, but not stories I really want to write.

As far as men's action fiction goes, PA can be a very lucrative genre, if one can do it well. Looking at the top 100 in that genre makes me think I'm writing in the wrong genre.

[Leo]

Had to look up "bogans."

Lol, it's another name for 'yobbo's'.

[Kay Inglis]

I remember being haunted for ages by that episode of Survivors, though I can see that it made sense in the context for 'justice' to be seen to be done quickly.

Yes, the need to show that justice would still be done was a motivation for Greg.

In the remake of Survivors 2008 (in my view not as good as the original) the message was more mixed because the execution shown was of someone who had been stealing food from the community and the execution was by the only surviving government official who thought order must be maintained at any price.

In the original the fact of murder made the need for "justice" more pressing - although you could argue that in a PA world having your very limited supply of food stolen is the greatest risk and tantamount to murder.

But it is these episodes which make the PA genre such an interesting one - because it does make us think about morality and civilisation and what would count most when people are really pushed back to basics.